On Wednesday of this week a young man was towing a banner in Ft. Lauderdale and made a combination of mistakes that cost him his life. As most always it is a combination of events that results in a catastrophe. Certainly this was not glider related ,yet there are lessons that should be learned from this accident. A very low time tow pilot made several mistakes, one being too hesitant to release the banner, and us in the glider community have seen this too many times.
A video was taken of the entire event, it is obvious that the power on stall resulted in his death. A news camera captured the crash and aftermath explosion. This could have very well been a glider tow pilot. OBTP
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 12:49:58 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:yet there are lessons that should be learned from this accident. A very low time tow pilot made several mistakes, one being too hesitant to release the banner, and us in the glider community have seen this too many times.
On Wednesday of this week a young man was towing a banner in Ft. Lauderdale and made a combination of mistakes that cost him his life. As most always it is a combination of events that results in a catastrophe. Certainly this was not glider related ,
TerribleTommy, you are dumber than I thought, I have towed banners , have you??? It wasn't the pickup that was the problem , it was the flight. OBTPA video was taken of the entire event, it is obvious that the power on stall resulted in his death. A news camera captured the crash and aftermath explosion. This could have very well been a glider tow pilot. OBTPAnd this isn't the only such crash in Ft. Lauderdale: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6ol2Py7wc4
Banner towing is an unforgiving job. It is worse than glider towing because they snatch the banner's lanyard using a grappling hook in a divebombing maneuver:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAEiMfxOkCM
At least the banner won't kite behind the towplane!
Tom 2G
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 7:22:46 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:, yet there are lessons that should be learned from this accident. A very low time tow pilot made several mistakes, one being too hesitant to release the banner, and us in the glider community have seen this too many times.
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 12:49:58 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday of this week a young man was towing a banner in Ft. Lauderdale and made a combination of mistakes that cost him his life. As most always it is a combination of events that results in a catastrophe. Certainly this was not glider related
A video was taken of the entire event, it is obvious that the power on stall resulted in his death. A news camera captured the crash and aftermath explosion. This could have very well been a glider tow pilot. OBTPAnd this isn't the only such crash in Ft. Lauderdale: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6ol2Py7wc4
Banner towing is an unforgiving job. It is worse than glider towing because they snatch the banner's lanyard using a grappling hook in a divebombing maneuver:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAEiMfxOkCM
At least the banner won't kite behind the towplane!
Tom 2GTerribleTommy, you are dumber than I thought, I have towed banners , have you??? It wasn't the pickup that was the problem , it was the flight. OBTP
On Wednesday of this week a young man was towing a banner in Ft. Lauderdale and made a combination of mistakes that cost him his life. As most always it is a combination of events that results in a catastrophe. Certainly this was not glider related ,yet there are lessons that should be learned from this accident. A very low time tow pilot made several mistakes, one being too hesitant to release the banner, and us in the glider community have seen this too many times.
A video was taken of the entire event, it is obvious that the power on stall resulted in his death. A news camera captured the crash and aftermath explosion. This could have very well been a glider tow pilot. OBTP
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 3:49:58 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:yet there are lessons that should be learned from this accident. A very low time tow pilot made several mistakes, one being too hesitant to release the banner, and us in the glider community have seen this too many times.
On Wednesday of this week a young man was towing a banner in Ft. Lauderdale and made a combination of mistakes that cost him his life. As most always it is a combination of events that results in a catastrophe. Certainly this was not glider related ,
a couple of places to get reacquainted with the throttle and tailwheel.A video was taken of the entire event, it is obvious that the power on stall resulted in his death. A news camera captured the crash and aftermath explosion. This could have very well been a glider tow pilot. OBTPI wonder how they are transitioning these pilots to the Pawnee? I had not flown power in 37 years when I was asked to fly tow, I had over 100 hours in gliders at the time and about 1000 in power including a lot of tailwheel experience. Still I went to
I flew the J3 for 2 hours and felt fine from the start, nailed all the landings, then got in a Stearman for 5 hours to get used to the horsepower. I will tell you if you can handle the Stearman you can fly the Pawnee just fine. I additionally didseveral hours in the Pitts S2 with Steve Wolf doing aerobatics and then flew the Zlin with Kathy Hertz (SP?) doing upset training. This training was invaluable and probably saved my life when the SHTF. I highly recommend upset training for anyone
There are some AG schools with tandem Pawnees where you can get some time, I believe Right Rudder Aviation in Inverness has a dual Pawnee for such training. I got in the Pawnee and flew it right away, compared to the Stearman and Pitts it’s a pussycat. JMHO.
Walt ConnellyThey check them out dual for banners in the Cessna Bird Dog, much less forgiving in some ways.
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 8:23:10 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:related , yet there are lessons that should be learned from this accident. A very low time tow pilot made several mistakes, one being too hesitant to release the banner, and us in the glider community have seen this too many times.
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 7:22:46 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 12:49:58 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday of this week a young man was towing a banner in Ft. Lauderdale and made a combination of mistakes that cost him his life. As most always it is a combination of events that results in a catastrophe. Certainly this was not glider
you drop before you land every time. Most of the deadly mistakes in banner towing are the result of pilot error but mechanical issues do crop up. This company seems to have one accident every year or so. The glider tow pilot is at the mercy of the gliderA video was taken of the entire event, it is obvious that the power on stall resulted in his death. A news camera captured the crash and aftermath explosion. This could have very well been a glider tow pilot. OBTPAnd this isn't the only such crash in Ft. Lauderdale: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6ol2Py7wc4
Banner towing is an unforgiving job. It is worse than glider towing because they snatch the banner's lanyard using a grappling hook in a divebombing maneuver:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAEiMfxOkCM
At least the banner won't kite behind the towplane!
I've got a little experience tugging banners at Ormond and Daytona, long, long ago. They will tell you the most difficult thing is the pick and I suppose to a degree that is true but other things can happen. You get lots of practice in releases becauseTom 2GTerribleTommy, you are dumber than I thought, I have towed banners , have you??? It wasn't the pickup that was the problem , it was the flight. OBTP
This young man was on his way, had commercial airplane SEL and SES, Multi airplane and seaplane and Instrument with 325 total time and about 13 in the Pawnee. All he needed was time and the regionals would pick him up. Looks like the classic stall,spin low to the ground without room to recover. Sad, very sad.
At least the NTSB has the video and audio to go on, so in a year or so we might see a conclusion.Walt, I have some first hand info on this and the big mistake was not releasing the banner earlier and flying the Pawnee. I have towed banners, and it to me is safer than glider towing. Poor guy just made a mistake by not releasing well before the stall.
Walt (I'll stick with helicopters and sea planes.)
On Sunday, May 21, 2023 at 9:06:16 AM UTC-4, waltco...@aol.com wrote:related , yet there are lessons that should be learned from this accident. A very low time tow pilot made several mistakes, one being too hesitant to release the banner, and us in the glider community have seen this too many times.
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 8:23:10 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 7:22:46 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 12:49:58 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday of this week a young man was towing a banner in Ft. Lauderdale and made a combination of mistakes that cost him his life. As most always it is a combination of events that results in a catastrophe. Certainly this was not glider
because you drop before you land every time. Most of the deadly mistakes in banner towing are the result of pilot error but mechanical issues do crop up. This company seems to have one accident every year or so. The glider tow pilot is at the mercy ofA video was taken of the entire event, it is obvious that the power on stall resulted in his death. A news camera captured the crash and aftermath explosion. This could have very well been a glider tow pilot. OBTPAnd this isn't the only such crash in Ft. Lauderdale: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6ol2Py7wc4
Banner towing is an unforgiving job. It is worse than glider towing because they snatch the banner's lanyard using a grappling hook in a divebombing maneuver:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAEiMfxOkCM
At least the banner won't kite behind the towplane!
I've got a little experience tugging banners at Ormond and Daytona, long, long ago. They will tell you the most difficult thing is the pick and I suppose to a degree that is true but other things can happen. You get lots of practice in releasesTom 2GTerribleTommy, you are dumber than I thought, I have towed banners , have you??? It wasn't the pickup that was the problem , it was the flight. OBTP
spin low to the ground without room to recover. Sad, very sad.This young man was on his way, had commercial airplane SEL and SES, Multi airplane and seaplane and Instrument with 325 total time and about 13 in the Pawnee. All he needed was time and the regionals would pick him up. Looks like the classic stall,
stall. OBTPAt least the NTSB has the video and audio to go on, so in a year or so we might see a conclusion.
Walt (I'll stick with helicopters and sea planes.)Walt, I have some first hand info on this and the big mistake was not releasing the banner earlier and flying the Pawnee. I have towed banners, and it to me is safer than glider towing. Poor guy just made a mistake by not releasing well before the
On Sunday, May 21, 2023 at 9:06:16 AM UTC-4, waltco...@aol.com wrote:related , yet there are lessons that should be learned from this accident. A very low time tow pilot made several mistakes, one being too hesitant to release the banner, and us in the glider community have seen this too many times.
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 8:23:10 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 7:22:46 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 12:49:58 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday of this week a young man was towing a banner in Ft. Lauderdale and made a combination of mistakes that cost him his life. As most always it is a combination of events that results in a catastrophe. Certainly this was not glider
because you drop before you land every time. Most of the deadly mistakes in banner towing are the result of pilot error but mechanical issues do crop up. This company seems to have one accident every year or so. The glider tow pilot is at the mercy ofA video was taken of the entire event, it is obvious that the power on stall resulted in his death. A news camera captured the crash and aftermath explosion. This could have very well been a glider tow pilot. OBTPAnd this isn't the only such crash in Ft. Lauderdale: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6ol2Py7wc4
Banner towing is an unforgiving job. It is worse than glider towing because they snatch the banner's lanyard using a grappling hook in a divebombing maneuver:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAEiMfxOkCM
At least the banner won't kite behind the towplane!
I've got a little experience tugging banners at Ormond and Daytona, long, long ago. They will tell you the most difficult thing is the pick and I suppose to a degree that is true but other things can happen. You get lots of practice in releasesTom 2GTerribleTommy, you are dumber than I thought, I have towed banners , have you??? It wasn't the pickup that was the problem , it was the flight. OBTP
spin low to the ground without room to recover. Sad, very sad.This young man was on his way, had commercial airplane SEL and SES, Multi airplane and seaplane and Instrument with 325 total time and about 13 in the Pawnee. All he needed was time and the regionals would pick him up. Looks like the classic stall,
stall. OBTPAt least the NTSB has the video and audio to go on, so in a year or so we might see a conclusion.
Walt (I'll stick with helicopters and sea planes.)Walt, I have some first hand info on this and the big mistake was not releasing the banner earlier and flying the Pawnee. I have towed banners, and it to me is safer than glider towing. Poor guy just made a mistake by not releasing well before the
On Sunday, May 21, 2023 at 8:30:53 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:related , yet there are lessons that should be learned from this accident. A very low time tow pilot made several mistakes, one being too hesitant to release the banner, and us in the glider community have seen this too many times.
On Sunday, May 21, 2023 at 9:06:16 AM UTC-4, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 8:23:10 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 7:22:46 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 12:49:58 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday of this week a young man was towing a banner in Ft. Lauderdale and made a combination of mistakes that cost him his life. As most always it is a combination of events that results in a catastrophe. Certainly this was not glider
because you drop before you land every time. Most of the deadly mistakes in banner towing are the result of pilot error but mechanical issues do crop up. This company seems to have one accident every year or so. The glider tow pilot is at the mercy ofA video was taken of the entire event, it is obvious that the power on stall resulted in his death. A news camera captured the crash and aftermath explosion. This could have very well been a glider tow pilot. OBTPAnd this isn't the only such crash in Ft. Lauderdale: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6ol2Py7wc4
Banner towing is an unforgiving job. It is worse than glider towing because they snatch the banner's lanyard using a grappling hook in a divebombing maneuver:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAEiMfxOkCM
At least the banner won't kite behind the towplane!
I've got a little experience tugging banners at Ormond and Daytona, long, long ago. They will tell you the most difficult thing is the pick and I suppose to a degree that is true but other things can happen. You get lots of practice in releasesTom 2GTerribleTommy, you are dumber than I thought, I have towed banners , have you??? It wasn't the pickup that was the problem , it was the flight. OBTP
spin low to the ground without room to recover. Sad, very sad.This young man was on his way, had commercial airplane SEL and SES, Multi airplane and seaplane and Instrument with 325 total time and about 13 in the Pawnee. All he needed was time and the regionals would pick him up. Looks like the classic stall,
stall. OBTPAt least the NTSB has the video and audio to go on, so in a year or so we might see a conclusion.
Walt (I'll stick with helicopters and sea planes.)Walt, I have some first hand info on this and the big mistake was not releasing the banner earlier and flying the Pawnee. I have towed banners, and it to me is safer than glider towing. Poor guy just made a mistake by not releasing well before the
I watched the video and he was low and slow and in trouble from the start of the video. No question towing a glider is more dangerous. The banner does not consciously or carelessly try to kill you and the pressure on the release in a banner tow isminimal. These companies give low time guys a chance to make a couple of bucks and build hours, if they survive it's worth it, in his case not so much. Sad.
WaltWalt, absolutely correct, he was in trouble long before the last second release of the banner. I think that this was the second day of towing for this pilot, I wish he could have sat down with the two of us and been given a talk about release first and
The Pawnee does look to be struggling to maintain airspeed with that nose higher than I've seen towing big two seaters. Why? He couldn't increase the power setting? I get it's a big banner but it's a Pawnee!? I don't know anything about towing.To sorta answer this, under stress you usually revert to past training...hopefully that was good training. This is a dynamic situation with little to me to think. Add in he is low time towing, maybe not enough good/relevant training in.
It's amazing how the brain stops working properly in the moment of an emergency...
On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 7:00:50 AM UTC-4, Turkey Vulture wrote:
The Pawnee does look to be struggling to maintain airspeed with that nose higher than I've seen towing big two seaters. Why? He couldn't increase the power setting? I get it's a big banner but it's a Pawnee!? I don't know anything about towing.
It's amazing how the brain stops working properly in the moment of an emergency...To sorta answer this, under stress you usually revert to past training...hopefully that was good training. This is a dynamic situation with little to me to think. Add in he is low time towing, maybe not enough good/relevant training in.
On Monday, May 22, 2023 at 8:22:13 AM UTC-4, waltco...@aol.com wrote:related , yet there are lessons that should be learned from this accident. A very low time tow pilot made several mistakes, one being too hesitant to release the banner, and us in the glider community have seen this too many times.
On Sunday, May 21, 2023 at 8:30:53 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, May 21, 2023 at 9:06:16 AM UTC-4, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 8:23:10 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 7:22:46 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 12:49:58 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday of this week a young man was towing a banner in Ft. Lauderdale and made a combination of mistakes that cost him his life. As most always it is a combination of events that results in a catastrophe. Certainly this was not glider
because you drop before you land every time. Most of the deadly mistakes in banner towing are the result of pilot error but mechanical issues do crop up. This company seems to have one accident every year or so. The glider tow pilot is at the mercy ofA video was taken of the entire event, it is obvious that the power on stall resulted in his death. A news camera captured the crash and aftermath explosion. This could have very well been a glider tow pilot. OBTPAnd this isn't the only such crash in Ft. Lauderdale: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6ol2Py7wc4
Banner towing is an unforgiving job. It is worse than glider towing because they snatch the banner's lanyard using a grappling hook in a divebombing maneuver:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAEiMfxOkCM
At least the banner won't kite behind the towplane!
I've got a little experience tugging banners at Ormond and Daytona, long, long ago. They will tell you the most difficult thing is the pick and I suppose to a degree that is true but other things can happen. You get lots of practice in releasesTom 2GTerribleTommy, you are dumber than I thought, I have towed banners , have you??? It wasn't the pickup that was the problem , it was the flight. OBTP
stall, spin low to the ground without room to recover. Sad, very sad.This young man was on his way, had commercial airplane SEL and SES, Multi airplane and seaplane and Instrument with 325 total time and about 13 in the Pawnee. All he needed was time and the regionals would pick him up. Looks like the classic
stall. OBTPAt least the NTSB has the video and audio to go on, so in a year or so we might see a conclusion.
Walt (I'll stick with helicopters and sea planes.)Walt, I have some first hand info on this and the big mistake was not releasing the banner earlier and flying the Pawnee. I have towed banners, and it to me is safer than glider towing. Poor guy just made a mistake by not releasing well before the
minimal. These companies give low time guys a chance to make a couple of bucks and build hours, if they survive it's worth it, in his case not so much. Sad.I watched the video and he was low and slow and in trouble from the start of the video. No question towing a glider is more dangerous. The banner does not consciously or carelessly try to kill you and the pressure on the release in a banner tow is
ask questions later, it would have probably saved his life. OBTP has a few rules when it comes to towing, number one is Don't Screw Up, number two is Don't screw Up, and if you do and you survive the conversation on the ground will not be very pleasant.WaltWalt, absolutely correct, he was in trouble long before the last second release of the banner. I think that this was the second day of towing for this pilot, I wish he could have sat down with the two of us and been given a talk about release first and
After as many tows as the both of us have done we probably could sit down and write a great article about the 10 rules of towing. OBTP
On Monday, May 22, 2023 at 5:27:45 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:related , yet there are lessons that should be learned from this accident. A very low time tow pilot made several mistakes, one being too hesitant to release the banner, and us in the glider community have seen this too many times.
On Monday, May 22, 2023 at 8:22:13 AM UTC-4, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
On Sunday, May 21, 2023 at 8:30:53 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote: >>>> On Sunday, May 21, 2023 at 9:06:16 AM UTC-4, waltco...@aol.com wrote: >>>>> On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 8:23:10 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 7:22:46 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 12:49:58 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday of this week a young man was towing a banner in Ft. Lauderdale and made a combination of mistakes that cost him his life. As most always it is a combination of events that results in a catastrophe. Certainly this was not glider
because you drop before you land every time. Most of the deadly mistakes in banner towing are the result of pilot error but mechanical issues do crop up. This company seems to have one accident every year or so. The glider tow pilot is at the mercy ofI've got a little experience tugging banners at Ormond and Daytona, long, long ago. They will tell you the most difficult thing is the pick and I suppose to a degree that is true but other things can happen. You get lots of practice in releasesTerribleTommy, you are dumber than I thought, I have towed banners , have you??? It wasn't the pickup that was the problem , it was the flight. OBTPA video was taken of the entire event, it is obvious that the power on stall resulted in his death. A news camera captured the crash and aftermath explosion. This could have very well been a glider tow pilot. OBTPAnd this isn't the only such crash in Ft. Lauderdale:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6ol2Py7wc4
Banner towing is an unforgiving job. It is worse than glider towing because they snatch the banner's lanyard using a grappling hook in a divebombing maneuver:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAEiMfxOkCM
At least the banner won't kite behind the towplane!
Tom 2G
spin low to the ground without room to recover. Sad, very sad.This young man was on his way, had commercial airplane SEL and SES, Multi airplane and seaplane and Instrument with 325 total time and about 13 in the Pawnee. All he needed was time and the regionals would pick him up. Looks like the classic stall,
stall. OBTPWalt, I have some first hand info on this and the big mistake was not releasing the banner earlier and flying the Pawnee. I have towed banners, and it to me is safer than glider towing. Poor guy just made a mistake by not releasing well before the
At least the NTSB has the video and audio to go on, so in a year or so we might see a conclusion.
Walt (I'll stick with helicopters and sea planes.)
minimal. These companies give low time guys a chance to make a couple of bucks and build hours, if they survive it's worth it, in his case not so much. Sad.I watched the video and he was low and slow and in trouble from the start of the video. No question towing a glider is more dangerous. The banner does not consciously or carelessly try to kill you and the pressure on the release in a banner tow is
and ask questions later, it would have probably saved his life. OBTP has a few rules when it comes to towing, number one is Don't Screw Up, number two is Don't screw Up, and if you do and you survive the conversation on the ground will not be veryWaltWalt, absolutely correct, he was in trouble long before the last second release of the banner. I think that this was the second day of towing for this pilot, I wish he could have sat down with the two of us and been given a talk about release first
jerked my tail hard to the right the first time as she was far to the right, not in the mirror and flying erratically. BUT she was a 15 year old student and I foolishly wanted to give her every chance possible. I towed her another 100-150 feet in theAfter as many tows as the both of us have done we probably could sit down and write a great article about the 10 rules of towing. OBTP
I agree that "release first and ask questions later" should be the mantra of every pilot towing anything. The NUMBER ONE RULE should be DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT, but even that upsets some people. I should have pulled the handle on the 15 year old who
I looked at the training schedule of the banner school and it looked adequate, 10 hours in the L19 and 10 hours in the Pawnee, a substantial amount of ground school, yada yada yada. About 6500 dollars worth of training which was waived if the employeelasted a year. Not a bad deal if you live thru it and gain the experience. I would have jumped on that in 1974 myself.
Walt Connelly
I pulled the release on my pre-solo wife over the departure numbers when
the engine of the Ag Wagon quit. I looked in the mirror and she was half
way through the turn back. Her instructor woke up about the time she
rolled out and asked, "Did you do that?" Yup.
Dan
5J
On Monday, May 22, 2023 at 5:27:45 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:glider related , yet there are lessons that should be learned from this accident. A very low time tow pilot made several mistakes, one being too hesitant to release the banner, and us in the glider community have seen this too many times.
On Monday, May 22, 2023 at 8:22:13 AM UTC-4, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
On Sunday, May 21, 2023 at 8:30:53 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, May 21, 2023 at 9:06:16 AM UTC-4, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 8:23:10 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 7:22:46 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 12:49:58 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday of this week a young man was towing a banner in Ft. Lauderdale and made a combination of mistakes that cost him his life. As most always it is a combination of events that results in a catastrophe. Certainly this was not
because you drop before you land every time. Most of the deadly mistakes in banner towing are the result of pilot error but mechanical issues do crop up. This company seems to have one accident every year or so. The glider tow pilot is at the mercy ofA video was taken of the entire event, it is obvious that the power on stall resulted in his death. A news camera captured the crash and aftermath explosion. This could have very well been a glider tow pilot. OBTPAnd this isn't the only such crash in Ft. Lauderdale: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6ol2Py7wc4
Banner towing is an unforgiving job. It is worse than glider towing because they snatch the banner's lanyard using a grappling hook in a divebombing maneuver:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAEiMfxOkCM
At least the banner won't kite behind the towplane!
I've got a little experience tugging banners at Ormond and Daytona, long, long ago. They will tell you the most difficult thing is the pick and I suppose to a degree that is true but other things can happen. You get lots of practice in releasesTom 2GTerribleTommy, you are dumber than I thought, I have towed banners , have you??? It wasn't the pickup that was the problem , it was the flight. OBTP
stall, spin low to the ground without room to recover. Sad, very sad.This young man was on his way, had commercial airplane SEL and SES, Multi airplane and seaplane and Instrument with 325 total time and about 13 in the Pawnee. All he needed was time and the regionals would pick him up. Looks like the classic
the stall. OBTPAt least the NTSB has the video and audio to go on, so in a year or so we might see a conclusion.
Walt (I'll stick with helicopters and sea planes.)Walt, I have some first hand info on this and the big mistake was not releasing the banner earlier and flying the Pawnee. I have towed banners, and it to me is safer than glider towing. Poor guy just made a mistake by not releasing well before
minimal. These companies give low time guys a chance to make a couple of bucks and build hours, if they survive it's worth it, in his case not so much. Sad.I watched the video and he was low and slow and in trouble from the start of the video. No question towing a glider is more dangerous. The banner does not consciously or carelessly try to kill you and the pressure on the release in a banner tow is
and ask questions later, it would have probably saved his life. OBTP has a few rules when it comes to towing, number one is Don't Screw Up, number two is Don't screw Up, and if you do and you survive the conversation on the ground will not be veryWaltWalt, absolutely correct, he was in trouble long before the last second release of the banner. I think that this was the second day of towing for this pilot, I wish he could have sat down with the two of us and been given a talk about release first
jerked my tail hard to the right the first time as she was far to the right, not in the mirror and flying erratically. BUT she was a 15 year old student and I foolishly wanted to give her every chance possible. I towed her another 100-150 feet in the airAfter as many tows as the both of us have done we probably could sit down and write a great article about the 10 rules of towing. OBTPI agree that "release first and ask questions later" should be the mantra of every pilot towing anything. The NUMBER ONE RULE should be DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT, but even that upsets some people. I should have pulled the handle on the 15 year old who
I looked at the training schedule of the banner school and it looked adequate, 10 hours in the L19 and 10 hours in the Pawnee, a substantial amount of ground school, yada yada yada. About 6500 dollars worth of training which was waived if the employeelasted a year. Not a bad deal if you live thru it and gain the experience. I would have jumped on that in 1974 myself.
Walt ConnellyI know this operation very well, their equipment is first class, probably the finest Pawnee repair and rebuild facility in the country. Yet, there are more than one instance that points to something being reason for investigating why so many deadly
On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 11:31:01 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:looking in the mirror but looking for a place to land. I assume everything turned out well.
I pulled the release on my pre-solo wife over the departure numbers when
the engine of the Ag Wagon quit. I looked in the mirror and she was half
way through the turn back. Her instructor woke up about the time she
rolled out and asked, "Did you do that?" Yup.
Dan
5J
Pulling the release with an engine out is a no brainer and I would do the same thing with a lost engine regardless of who was behind me. I would imagine your "pre solo wife" was with an instructor. If I lost an engine I don't know that I would be
Walt
On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 9:16:34 AM UTC-4, waltco...@aol.com wrote:glider related , yet there are lessons that should be learned from this accident. A very low time tow pilot made several mistakes, one being too hesitant to release the banner, and us in the glider community have seen this too many times.
On Monday, May 22, 2023 at 5:27:45 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, May 22, 2023 at 8:22:13 AM UTC-4, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
On Sunday, May 21, 2023 at 8:30:53 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, May 21, 2023 at 9:06:16 AM UTC-4, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 8:23:10 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 7:22:46 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 12:49:58 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday of this week a young man was towing a banner in Ft. Lauderdale and made a combination of mistakes that cost him his life. As most always it is a combination of events that results in a catastrophe. Certainly this was not
releases because you drop before you land every time. Most of the deadly mistakes in banner towing are the result of pilot error but mechanical issues do crop up. This company seems to have one accident every year or so. The glider tow pilot is at theA video was taken of the entire event, it is obvious that the power on stall resulted in his death. A news camera captured the crash and aftermath explosion. This could have very well been a glider tow pilot. OBTPAnd this isn't the only such crash in Ft. Lauderdale: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6ol2Py7wc4
Banner towing is an unforgiving job. It is worse than glider towing because they snatch the banner's lanyard using a grappling hook in a divebombing maneuver:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAEiMfxOkCM
At least the banner won't kite behind the towplane!
I've got a little experience tugging banners at Ormond and Daytona, long, long ago. They will tell you the most difficult thing is the pick and I suppose to a degree that is true but other things can happen. You get lots of practice inTom 2GTerribleTommy, you are dumber than I thought, I have towed banners , have you??? It wasn't the pickup that was the problem , it was the flight. OBTP
stall, spin low to the ground without room to recover. Sad, very sad.This young man was on his way, had commercial airplane SEL and SES, Multi airplane and seaplane and Instrument with 325 total time and about 13 in the Pawnee. All he needed was time and the regionals would pick him up. Looks like the classic
the stall. OBTPAt least the NTSB has the video and audio to go on, so in a year or so we might see a conclusion.
Walt (I'll stick with helicopters and sea planes.)Walt, I have some first hand info on this and the big mistake was not releasing the banner earlier and flying the Pawnee. I have towed banners, and it to me is safer than glider towing. Poor guy just made a mistake by not releasing well before
is minimal. These companies give low time guys a chance to make a couple of bucks and build hours, if they survive it's worth it, in his case not so much. Sad.I watched the video and he was low and slow and in trouble from the start of the video. No question towing a glider is more dangerous. The banner does not consciously or carelessly try to kill you and the pressure on the release in a banner tow
and ask questions later, it would have probably saved his life. OBTP has a few rules when it comes to towing, number one is Don't Screw Up, number two is Don't screw Up, and if you do and you survive the conversation on the ground will not be veryWaltWalt, absolutely correct, he was in trouble long before the last second release of the banner. I think that this was the second day of towing for this pilot, I wish he could have sat down with the two of us and been given a talk about release first
jerked my tail hard to the right the first time as she was far to the right, not in the mirror and flying erratically. BUT she was a 15 year old student and I foolishly wanted to give her every chance possible. I towed her another 100-150 feet in the airAfter as many tows as the both of us have done we probably could sit down and write a great article about the 10 rules of towing. OBTPI agree that "release first and ask questions later" should be the mantra of every pilot towing anything. The NUMBER ONE RULE should be DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT, but even that upsets some people. I should have pulled the handle on the 15 year old who
employee lasted a year. Not a bad deal if you live thru it and gain the experience. I would have jumped on that in 1974 myself.I looked at the training schedule of the banner school and it looked adequate, 10 hours in the L19 and 10 hours in the Pawnee, a substantial amount of ground school, yada yada yada. About 6500 dollars worth of training which was waived if the
accidents in a short period of time. The time requirements are certainly adequate prior to getting into the Pawnee and towing, but how much emergence training is included in that syllabus?Walt ConnellyI know this operation very well, their equipment is first class, probably the finest Pawnee repair and rebuild facility in the country. Yet, there are more than one instance that points to something being reason for investigating why so many deadly
As I have mentioned before, I have had some very close calls while towing gliders, and yes the broken rope saved me once, and there was an instructor in the glider, what a surprise! When I give a tow endorsement I spend more than adequate time goingthrough release procedures and expectations. My Pawnee's are designed so that the tow pilot has not problem getting to the release and increasing his margin of safety. OBTP
I fly out of the Minden, NV airport. One summer when Tony Sabino was running Soar Minden, watched him try to get one of his tow pilots to learn banner towing, for a marriage proposal. The pilot had no formal or even informal instruction beforehand.Clearly uncomfortable with the banner pickup, kept missing the pickup. Tony kept berating him over the radio "lower! you've got to come in lower to snag the banner! you're wasting my fuel and my time! the customer has already paid for the banner and you'
On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 9:16:34 AM UTC-4, waltco...@aol.com wrote:glider related , yet there are lessons that should be learned from this accident. A very low time tow pilot made several mistakes, one being too hesitant to release the banner, and us in the glider community have seen this too many times.
On Monday, May 22, 2023 at 5:27:45 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, May 22, 2023 at 8:22:13 AM UTC-4, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
On Sunday, May 21, 2023 at 8:30:53 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, May 21, 2023 at 9:06:16 AM UTC-4, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 8:23:10 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 7:22:46 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 12:49:58 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday of this week a young man was towing a banner in Ft. Lauderdale and made a combination of mistakes that cost him his life. As most always it is a combination of events that results in a catastrophe. Certainly this was not
releases because you drop before you land every time. Most of the deadly mistakes in banner towing are the result of pilot error but mechanical issues do crop up. This company seems to have one accident every year or so. The glider tow pilot is at theA video was taken of the entire event, it is obvious that the power on stall resulted in his death. A news camera captured the crash and aftermath explosion. This could have very well been a glider tow pilot. OBTPAnd this isn't the only such crash in Ft. Lauderdale: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6ol2Py7wc4
Banner towing is an unforgiving job. It is worse than glider towing because they snatch the banner's lanyard using a grappling hook in a divebombing maneuver:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAEiMfxOkCM
At least the banner won't kite behind the towplane!
I've got a little experience tugging banners at Ormond and Daytona, long, long ago. They will tell you the most difficult thing is the pick and I suppose to a degree that is true but other things can happen. You get lots of practice inTom 2GTerribleTommy, you are dumber than I thought, I have towed banners , have you??? It wasn't the pickup that was the problem , it was the flight. OBTP
stall, spin low to the ground without room to recover. Sad, very sad.This young man was on his way, had commercial airplane SEL and SES, Multi airplane and seaplane and Instrument with 325 total time and about 13 in the Pawnee. All he needed was time and the regionals would pick him up. Looks like the classic
the stall. OBTPAt least the NTSB has the video and audio to go on, so in a year or so we might see a conclusion.
Walt (I'll stick with helicopters and sea planes.)Walt, I have some first hand info on this and the big mistake was not releasing the banner earlier and flying the Pawnee. I have towed banners, and it to me is safer than glider towing. Poor guy just made a mistake by not releasing well before
is minimal. These companies give low time guys a chance to make a couple of bucks and build hours, if they survive it's worth it, in his case not so much. Sad.I watched the video and he was low and slow and in trouble from the start of the video. No question towing a glider is more dangerous. The banner does not consciously or carelessly try to kill you and the pressure on the release in a banner tow
and ask questions later, it would have probably saved his life. OBTP has a few rules when it comes to towing, number one is Don't Screw Up, number two is Don't screw Up, and if you do and you survive the conversation on the ground will not be veryWaltWalt, absolutely correct, he was in trouble long before the last second release of the banner. I think that this was the second day of towing for this pilot, I wish he could have sat down with the two of us and been given a talk about release first
jerked my tail hard to the right the first time as she was far to the right, not in the mirror and flying erratically. BUT she was a 15 year old student and I foolishly wanted to give her every chance possible. I towed her another 100-150 feet in the airAfter as many tows as the both of us have done we probably could sit down and write a great article about the 10 rules of towing. OBTPI agree that "release first and ask questions later" should be the mantra of every pilot towing anything. The NUMBER ONE RULE should be DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT, but even that upsets some people. I should have pulled the handle on the 15 year old who
employee lasted a year. Not a bad deal if you live thru it and gain the experience. I would have jumped on that in 1974 myself.I looked at the training schedule of the banner school and it looked adequate, 10 hours in the L19 and 10 hours in the Pawnee, a substantial amount of ground school, yada yada yada. About 6500 dollars worth of training which was waived if the
accidents in a short period of time. The time requirements are certainly adequate prior to getting into the Pawnee and towing, but how much emergence training is included in that syllabus?Walt ConnellyI know this operation very well, their equipment is first class, probably the finest Pawnee repair and rebuild facility in the country. Yet, there are more than one instance that points to something being reason for investigating why so many deadly
As I have mentioned before, I have had some very close calls while towing gliders, and yes the broken rope saved me once, and there was an instructor in the glider, what a surprise! When I give a tow endorsement I spend more than adequate time goingthrough release procedures and expectations. My Pawnee's are designed so that the tow pilot has not problem getting to the release and increasing his margin of safety. OBTP
I spent several thousand dollars doing these things but
Another nearly destroyed Pawnee from the same operator, fortunately not fatal:
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/313746
On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 4:27:07 PM UTC-7, me wrote:https://youtu.be/d3Jkd3ce5lo
Another nearly destroyed Pawnee from the same operator, fortunately not fatal:I am STILL waiting for Boobie to post a link to the video that he has referred to (and criticized me about!).
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/313746
Tom
Another nearly destroyed Pawnee from the same operator, fortunately not fatal:
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/313746
kay, that's it, no more Piper Pawnees. Those damn things are dangerous killing glider tow pilots, ag pilots and banner pilots. Ban them, there is no right to keep and fly Pawnees, confiscate them all.
On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 7:27:07 PM UTC-4, me wrote:panties in a wad. BUT each incident necessitates a thorough investigation into what happened, what could have been done to avoid it and implement a plan going forward.
Another nearly destroyed Pawnee from the same operator, fortunately not fatal:Okay, that's it, no more Piper Pawnees. Those damn things are dangerous killing glider tow pilots, ag pilots and banner pilots. Ban them, there is no right to keep and fly Pawnees, confiscate them all. Just kidding folks, don't get your sensitive
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/313746
This guy had 1000 hours, seems like a lot of experience and he screwed up OR experience an engine failure exactly at the wrong time. Glad he survived, hope he will recover well enough to get a class 1 and continue with his flying career so he can makethose big airline pilot bucks and bitch about their job.
Sure Aerial Banners has had a lot of accidents/incidents and some fatalities but when you consider the number of cycles they have in a year is it that much more than the national average? As I have pointed out, any time you attach a rope to an airplaneand attempt to drag anything behind you, you have upset the apple cart to begin with. The analysis by the former banner tow pilot was excellent. She or someone of her qualifications should be part of the NTSB investigatory process.
FB has a page called "Aviation Accidents, This day in history," which shows that accidents are quite ubiquitous. Fly on my friends and remember to "keep thine airspeed up lest the ground rise up and smite thee."Walt, yep, time to get rid of all those dangerous Pawnee's, they are more deadly than an AR15 with a banana clip, the investigators have already reached out, not surprised at all. OBTP
Walt Connelly
Walt, are you talking about those deadly Assault Pawnees? You know, the black ones with the 300 round magazine clips?
Dan
5J
On 5/26/23 06:25, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
kay, that's it, no more Piper Pawnees. Those damn things are dangerous killing glider tow pilots, ag pilots and banner pilots. Ban them, there is no right to keep and fly Pawnees, confiscate them all.
On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 8:25:41 AM UTC-4, waltco...@aol.com wrote:panties in a wad. BUT each incident necessitates a thorough investigation into what happened, what could have been done to avoid it and implement a plan going forward.
On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 7:27:07 PM UTC-4, me wrote:
Another nearly destroyed Pawnee from the same operator, fortunately not fatal:Okay, that's it, no more Piper Pawnees. Those damn things are dangerous killing glider tow pilots, ag pilots and banner pilots. Ban them, there is no right to keep and fly Pawnees, confiscate them all. Just kidding folks, don't get your sensitive
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/313746
make those big airline pilot bucks and bitch about their job.This guy had 1000 hours, seems like a lot of experience and he screwed up OR experience an engine failure exactly at the wrong time. Glad he survived, hope he will recover well enough to get a class 1 and continue with his flying career so he can
airplane and attempt to drag anything behind you, you have upset the apple cart to begin with. The analysis by the former banner tow pilot was excellent. She or someone of her qualifications should be part of the NTSB investigatory process.Sure Aerial Banners has had a lot of accidents/incidents and some fatalities but when you consider the number of cycles they have in a year is it that much more than the national average? As I have pointed out, any time you attach a rope to an
FB has a page called "Aviation Accidents, This day in history," which shows that accidents are quite ubiquitous. Fly on my friends and remember to "keep thine airspeed up lest the ground rise up and smite thee."
Walt ConnellyWalt, yep, time to get rid of all those dangerous Pawnee's, they are more deadly than an AR15 with a banana clip, the investigators have already reached out, not surprised at all. OBTP
On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 2:13:03 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:long enough to get the experience it takes to keep them alive.
Walt, are you talking about those deadly Assault Pawnees? You know, the
black ones with the 300 round magazine clips?
Dan
5J
On 5/26/23 06:25, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
kay, that's it, no more Piper Pawnees. Those damn things are dangerous killing glider tow pilots, ag pilots and banner pilots. Ban them, there is no right to keep and fly Pawnees, confiscate them all.
Dan, yes definitely those Assault Pawnees need to be banned. I had one attack me and I barely got away with my life and those "magazine clips," no one needs a "magazine clip."
Seriously though, it's nice to see opportunity for young pilots, when I got my commercial there was not much available. It's all a matter of timing and hitting at the right time. Towing anything is dangerous, I just hope these young people can live
Walt
On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 1:44:15 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:panties in a wad. BUT each incident necessitates a thorough investigation into what happened, what could have been done to avoid it and implement a plan going forward.
On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 8:25:41 AM UTC-4, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 7:27:07 PM UTC-4, me wrote:
Another nearly destroyed Pawnee from the same operator, fortunately not fatal:Okay, that's it, no more Piper Pawnees. Those damn things are dangerous killing glider tow pilots, ag pilots and banner pilots. Ban them, there is no right to keep and fly Pawnees, confiscate them all. Just kidding folks, don't get your sensitive
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/313746
make those big airline pilot bucks and bitch about their job.This guy had 1000 hours, seems like a lot of experience and he screwed up OR experience an engine failure exactly at the wrong time. Glad he survived, hope he will recover well enough to get a class 1 and continue with his flying career so he can
airplane and attempt to drag anything behind you, you have upset the apple cart to begin with. The analysis by the former banner tow pilot was excellent. She or someone of her qualifications should be part of the NTSB investigatory process.Sure Aerial Banners has had a lot of accidents/incidents and some fatalities but when you consider the number of cycles they have in a year is it that much more than the national average? As I have pointed out, any time you attach a rope to an
6" and have long forearms. I was USAF so my weapon was a .38 cal aircrew revolver left over from the Philippine insurrection and replaced by the Colt .45 auto. Just a tad more lethal than a sharp stick.FB has a page called "Aviation Accidents, This day in history," which shows that accidents are quite ubiquitous. Fly on my friends and remember to "keep thine airspeed up lest the ground rise up and smite thee."
Regarding the infamous BANANA "clip", I prefer the 20 round "clip" and as I recall from the Vietnam Police Action most loaded only 17-18 rounds which helped to preclude jamming The 30 round magazine makes it near impossible to go prone unless you are 6'Walt ConnellyWalt, yep, time to get rid of all those dangerous Pawnee's, they are more deadly than an AR15 with a banana clip, the investigators have already reached out, not surprised at all. OBTP
Walt ConnellyThey did away with the 20 round magazine by the time I was in the infantry in the 80’s. The 30 round magazine was no issue at all going prone with. I fired thousands of rounds with them. Very few issues as long as you cleaned the M16 daily and kept it
On Saturday, May 27, 2023 at 1:44:48 PM UTC-4, Charles Longley wrote:sensitive panties in a wad. BUT each incident necessitates a thorough investigation into what happened, what could have been done to avoid it and implement a plan going forward.
On Saturday, May 27, 2023 at 6:33:04 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 1:44:15 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 8:25:41 AM UTC-4, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 7:27:07 PM UTC-4, me wrote:
Another nearly destroyed Pawnee from the same operator, fortunately not fatal:Okay, that's it, no more Piper Pawnees. Those damn things are dangerous killing glider tow pilots, ag pilots and banner pilots. Ban them, there is no right to keep and fly Pawnees, confiscate them all. Just kidding folks, don't get your
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/313746
can make those big airline pilot bucks and bitch about their job.This guy had 1000 hours, seems like a lot of experience and he screwed up OR experience an engine failure exactly at the wrong time. Glad he survived, hope he will recover well enough to get a class 1 and continue with his flying career so he
airplane and attempt to drag anything behind you, you have upset the apple cart to begin with. The analysis by the former banner tow pilot was excellent. She or someone of her qualifications should be part of the NTSB investigatory process.Sure Aerial Banners has had a lot of accidents/incidents and some fatalities but when you consider the number of cycles they have in a year is it that much more than the national average? As I have pointed out, any time you attach a rope to an
are 6'6" and have long forearms. I was USAF so my weapon was a .38 cal aircrew revolver left over from the Philippine insurrection and replaced by the Colt .45 auto. Just a tad more lethal than a sharp stick.FB has a page called "Aviation Accidents, This day in history," which shows that accidents are quite ubiquitous. Fly on my friends and remember to "keep thine airspeed up lest the ground rise up and smite thee."
Regarding the infamous BANANA "clip", I prefer the 20 round "clip" and as I recall from the Vietnam Police Action most loaded only 17-18 rounds which helped to preclude jamming The 30 round magazine makes it near impossible to go prone unless youWalt ConnellyWalt, yep, time to get rid of all those dangerous Pawnee's, they are more deadly than an AR15 with a banana clip, the investigators have already reached out, not surprised at all. OBTP
it lubed.Walt ConnellyThey did away with the 20 round magazine by the time I was in the infantry in the 80’s. The 30 round magazine was no issue at all going prone with. I fired thousands of rounds with them. Very few issues as long as you cleaned the M16 daily and kept
When the M16 was initially issued in Nam the geniuses (officers who knew every f--king thing) sent them without cleaning kits, said they were not necessary. These same geniuses did away with the chrome plating of the barrels which Stoner (the designer)said was necessary, this caused a lot of malfunctions and resulted in a lot of dead GIs but of course the officers knew every f00kihng thing. Issues with a change in the type of gunpowder used also created problems, but again, saving money and decisions
A youngster from my neighborhood received an Army commission. I told him to find a good mid level NCO, bury your head up his ass for a year and you might learn something.Well I suspect the Army learned a few things in Viet Nam. Not saying your 20 round magazine isn’t a valid point. I just never heard a complaint about the 30 round magazine during my infantry stint. Like not one. It never came up. Our standard load out
Walt Connelly
On Saturday, May 27, 2023 at 6:33:04 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:panties in a wad. BUT each incident necessitates a thorough investigation into what happened, what could have been done to avoid it and implement a plan going forward.
On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 1:44:15 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 8:25:41 AM UTC-4, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 7:27:07 PM UTC-4, me wrote:
Another nearly destroyed Pawnee from the same operator, fortunately not fatal:Okay, that's it, no more Piper Pawnees. Those damn things are dangerous killing glider tow pilots, ag pilots and banner pilots. Ban them, there is no right to keep and fly Pawnees, confiscate them all. Just kidding folks, don't get your sensitive
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/313746
make those big airline pilot bucks and bitch about their job.This guy had 1000 hours, seems like a lot of experience and he screwed up OR experience an engine failure exactly at the wrong time. Glad he survived, hope he will recover well enough to get a class 1 and continue with his flying career so he can
airplane and attempt to drag anything behind you, you have upset the apple cart to begin with. The analysis by the former banner tow pilot was excellent. She or someone of her qualifications should be part of the NTSB investigatory process.Sure Aerial Banners has had a lot of accidents/incidents and some fatalities but when you consider the number of cycles they have in a year is it that much more than the national average? As I have pointed out, any time you attach a rope to an
6'6" and have long forearms. I was USAF so my weapon was a .38 cal aircrew revolver left over from the Philippine insurrection and replaced by the Colt .45 auto. Just a tad more lethal than a sharp stick.FB has a page called "Aviation Accidents, This day in history," which shows that accidents are quite ubiquitous. Fly on my friends and remember to "keep thine airspeed up lest the ground rise up and smite thee."
Regarding the infamous BANANA "clip", I prefer the 20 round "clip" and as I recall from the Vietnam Police Action most loaded only 17-18 rounds which helped to preclude jamming The 30 round magazine makes it near impossible to go prone unless you areWalt ConnellyWalt, yep, time to get rid of all those dangerous Pawnee's, they are more deadly than an AR15 with a banana clip, the investigators have already reached out, not surprised at all. OBTP
it lubed.Walt ConnellyThey did away with the 20 round magazine by the time I was in the infantry in the 80’s. The 30 round magazine was no issue at all going prone with. I fired thousands of rounds with them. Very few issues as long as you cleaned the M16 daily and kept
On Saturday, May 27, 2023 at 11:44:11 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:sensitive panties in a wad. BUT each incident necessitates a thorough investigation into what happened, what could have been done to avoid it and implement a plan going forward.
On Saturday, May 27, 2023 at 1:44:48 PM UTC-4, Charles Longley wrote:
On Saturday, May 27, 2023 at 6:33:04 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 1:44:15 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 8:25:41 AM UTC-4, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 7:27:07 PM UTC-4, me wrote:
Another nearly destroyed Pawnee from the same operator, fortunately not fatal:Okay, that's it, no more Piper Pawnees. Those damn things are dangerous killing glider tow pilots, ag pilots and banner pilots. Ban them, there is no right to keep and fly Pawnees, confiscate them all. Just kidding folks, don't get your
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/313746
can make those big airline pilot bucks and bitch about their job.This guy had 1000 hours, seems like a lot of experience and he screwed up OR experience an engine failure exactly at the wrong time. Glad he survived, hope he will recover well enough to get a class 1 and continue with his flying career so he
an airplane and attempt to drag anything behind you, you have upset the apple cart to begin with. The analysis by the former banner tow pilot was excellent. She or someone of her qualifications should be part of the NTSB investigatory process.Sure Aerial Banners has had a lot of accidents/incidents and some fatalities but when you consider the number of cycles they have in a year is it that much more than the national average? As I have pointed out, any time you attach a rope to
are 6'6" and have long forearms. I was USAF so my weapon was a .38 cal aircrew revolver left over from the Philippine insurrection and replaced by the Colt .45 auto. Just a tad more lethal than a sharp stick.FB has a page called "Aviation Accidents, This day in history," which shows that accidents are quite ubiquitous. Fly on my friends and remember to "keep thine airspeed up lest the ground rise up and smite thee."
Regarding the infamous BANANA "clip", I prefer the 20 round "clip" and as I recall from the Vietnam Police Action most loaded only 17-18 rounds which helped to preclude jamming The 30 round magazine makes it near impossible to go prone unless youWalt ConnellyWalt, yep, time to get rid of all those dangerous Pawnee's, they are more deadly than an AR15 with a banana clip, the investigators have already reached out, not surprised at all. OBTP
kept it lubed.Walt ConnellyThey did away with the 20 round magazine by the time I was in the infantry in the 80’s. The 30 round magazine was no issue at all going prone with. I fired thousands of rounds with them. Very few issues as long as you cleaned the M16 daily and
designer) said was necessary, this caused a lot of malfunctions and resulted in a lot of dead GIs but of course the officers knew every f00kihng thing. Issues with a change in the type of gunpowder used also created problems, but again, saving money andWhen the M16 was initially issued in Nam the geniuses (officers who knew every f--king thing) sent them without cleaning kits, said they were not necessary. These same geniuses did away with the chrome plating of the barrels which Stoner (the
out was 210 rounds in 7-30 round magazines. Plus maybe some more in your pack. We loaded the magazines to their full capacity of 30 rounds. Never heard of a magazine failure. Of course we weren’t operating in a humid climate. All of our weapons were inA youngster from my neighborhood received an Army commission. I told him to find a good mid level NCO, bury your head up his ass for a year and you might learn something.
Walt ConnellyWell I suspect the Army learned a few things in Viet Nam. Not saying your 20 round magazine isn’t a valid point. I just never heard a complaint about the 30 round magazine during my infantry stint. Like not one. It never came up. Our standard load
I take it you were a pilot. I spent a number of years in the infantry. We did lots of training with multiple rounds going down range. By lucky coincidence I missed out on all the fun in the Middle East. Both of my old units rotated over there.Not a pilot, membership in the club required a college degree. I had the grades, test scores but not the money for college and the draft would grab you if weren't in college in 1968. I enlisted, was combat aircrew on a number of different platforms
Charlie
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