On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 6:21:22 PM UTC-7, Giaco wrote:

I had an occurrence this afternoon with a student that thankfully did not damage the glider, buy has left me as the instructor with a quite sore lower back and new discovery of a sneaky way a student can kill me. As this is far from the first dumb

mistake I've made as a glider pilot, I figured it might be worth sharing with the community to see who else has experienced it, or perhaps help someone avoid the same circumstance.

Here's the background, using the FAA's PAVE model...

Pilot (Student) - 40ish year old pre-solo student, has been working on powered as well as gliders, as a fun activity to do with his teenage son. Was close to soloing in the fall, and has taken 8 rides this year to hopefully solo soon. Is well educated

and understands most flight safety concepts, but generally needs to be shown how they apply to truly "get" them. Some work/family stress, as he has a high-tempo job that requires difficult scheduling, and had family events to get to at the end of the
flying day.

Pilot (Instructor-Me) - 35 year old instructor, focused heavily on primary instruction for the last 15 years (flying gliders for 20). Has roughly 1000 hours (all in gliders), 90% of which in 2-33's and L-23s, with ~100 hours of PIK-20 and HP-14 time.

Minimal work/family stress, as i'm in between military assignments, and had the afternoon dedicated to helping get this student to solo.

Aircraft - The club's venerable SGS-233. Both instructor and Student have spent significant time in this glider, in these conditions, at this airport. The Glider has no maintenance issues has no issues using either the surface or adjacent grass for

landings.

enVironment - Runway in use was 17 (in the grass). Winds were 170(ish) at 10 gusting to 16. There was some powered and jet traffic, but not a factor on this flights. Airport is in upstate NY, paved runway 3500' long with a grass strip that runs the

full length of the runway. There are several fake coyotes and rough areas on the first 500 feet of each end of the grass strip.

External Pressures - I am currently most active instructor in the club, and will be leaving in 2 weeks for a new military assignment. We have another instructor, but his ability to fly regularly is limited with some medical concerns. The student and

his son are the most active student members of our club, and the entire club is excited to see them continuing to stay motivated and involved in the club. Another member is working on becoming a CFI (thanks SSA scholarships!), but still has a ways to go
before he will have his instructor license. Getting this member to be able to safely solo has been stated as the primary goal for me as the instructor before my departure.

Situation -
On a "pre-solo" pattern flight, the student flew a "TLAR" pattern, with minimal airbrake usage, leading to a short final approach that was ~300ft too high. He had made a similar mistake on two previous flights, but made all of his corrections via full

airbrakes and a forward slip, and then flaring hard with full airbrakes just prior to touchdown. We had discussed ways to better plan in the pattern to avoid the need for such a maneuver, but he found himself in the same situation again (declaring "i'm
not Brittney spears, but oops, I did it again"). He once again executed a full slip, with full airbrakes out, but did not feed nearly as much rudder into the slip as he had before. As we approached 50ft AGL, i looked over his shoulder and saw 45mph on
the airspeed indicator, despite still being in what i thought was a ~20 degree forward slip. As soon as he kicked the left rudder in at 30 or so feet to straighten out, i realized that we were not really flying any more, and took the aircraft. Despite
slamming the airbrakes shut and throwing the nose over, we were unable to regain any significant flying airspeed, and landed flat on the main wheel, and stopped shortly after.

Thoughts/Question for the group - Despite thousands of instructional flights, this is the first time i've been "fooled" by a forward slip disguising a stalled condition. While I did recognize the low wind noise, the nose was lower than I would

anticipate a stall being in a slip (maybe a 50mph pitch picture vs a 40-45). Not being on the controls (hoping that he can complete the task without any instructor involvement), I was unable to perceive any of the other signs of stall. By the time i
recognized that things were too "mushy," it was clearly already too late, but it certainly seemed like it happened incredibly quickly, given less than 5 seconds before i took control, I had seen the off-axis airspeed indicator reading ~45mph. Has anyone
experienced something similar, and what suggestions do you have for aiding in stall/spin avoidance while in a slipping condition (where you need to slow down to be effective, but have no accurate instrumentation). Is wind noise and the comparison of
alpha to beta angles the only real factors an instructor can rely on in this situation?

Many thanks for your thoughts
G7

Hi Giaco,

First of all let me thank you for posting this. I've been a CFI-G for about 11 years and I have sometimes been surprised by what a student can do with a glider.
Posting this takes courage and helps us all.

When I am flying with a student, regardless of how "good" if feel the student is I never take my hands and feet away from the controls. I think this sometimes has me "correcting" when the student's flying really did not need correcting but I have a
feeling that it might be better to be too soon than too late.

I instruct primarily in ASK-21's and I have not yet experienced the slip/stall/airspeed situation you describe but your posting sure has me giving new thought to the possibility.

Thank you again.

jp

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I had an occurrence this afternoon with a student that thankfully did not damage the glider, buy has left me as the instructor with a quite sore lower back and new discovery of a sneaky way a student can kill me. As this is far from the first dumb
mistake I've made as a glider pilot, I figured it might be worth sharing with the community to see who else has experienced it, or perhaps help someone avoid the same circumstance.

Here's the background, using the FAA's PAVE model...

Pilot (Student) - 40ish year old pre-solo student, has been working on powered as well as gliders, as a fun activity to do with his teenage son. Was close to soloing in the fall, and has taken 8 rides this year to hopefully solo soon. Is well educated
and understands most flight safety concepts, but generally needs to be shown how they apply to truly "get" them. Some work/family stress, as he has a high-tempo job that requires difficult scheduling, and had family events to get to at the end of the
flying day.

Pilot (Instructor-Me) - 35 year old instructor, focused heavily on primary instruction for the last 15 years (flying gliders for 20). Has roughly 1000 hours (all in gliders), 90% of which in 2-33's and L-23s, with ~100 hours of PIK-20 and HP-14 time.
Minimal work/family stress, as i'm in between military assignments, and had the afternoon dedicated to helping get this student to solo.

Aircraft - The club's venerable SGS-233. Both instructor and Student have spent significant time in this glider, in these conditions, at this airport. The Glider has no maintenance issues has no issues using either the surface or adjacent grass for
landings.

enVironment - Runway in use was 17 (in the grass). Winds were 170(ish) at 10 gusting to 16. There was some powered and jet traffic, but not a factor on this flights. Airport is in upstate NY, paved runway 3500' long with a grass strip that runs the full
length of the runway. There are several fake coyotes and rough areas on the first 500 feet of each end of the grass strip.

External Pressures - I am currently most active instructor in the club, and will be leaving in 2 weeks for a new military assignment. We have another instructor, but his ability to fly regularly is limited with some medical concerns. The student and his
son are the most active student members of our club, and the entire club is excited to see them continuing to stay motivated and involved in the club. Another member is working on becoming a CFI (thanks SSA scholarships!), but still has a ways to go
before he will have his instructor license. Getting this member to be able to safely solo has been stated as the primary goal for me as the instructor before my departure.

Situation -
On a "pre-solo" pattern flight, the student flew a "TLAR" pattern, with minimal airbrake usage, leading to a short final approach that was ~300ft too high. He had made a similar mistake on two previous flights, but made all of his corrections via full
airbrakes and a forward slip, and then flaring hard with full airbrakes just prior to touchdown. We had discussed ways to better plan in the pattern to avoid the need for such a maneuver, but he found himself in the same situation again (declaring "i'm
not Brittney spears, but oops, I did it again"). He once again executed a full slip, with full airbrakes out, but did not feed nearly as much rudder into the slip as he had before. As we approached 50ft AGL, i looked over his shoulder and saw 45mph on
the airspeed indicator, despite still being in what i thought was a ~20 degree forward slip. As soon as he kicked the left rudder in at 30 or so feet to straighten out, i realized that we were not really flying any more, and took the aircraft. Despite
slamming the airbrakes shut and throwing the nose over, we were unable to regain any significant flying airspeed, and landed flat on the main wheel, and stopped shortly after.

Thoughts/Question for the group - Despite thousands of instructional flights, this is the first time i've been "fooled" by a forward slip disguising a stalled condition. While I did recognize the low wind noise, the nose was lower than I would anticipate
a stall being in a slip (maybe a 50mph pitch picture vs a 40-45). Not being on the controls (hoping that he can complete the task without any instructor involvement), I was unable to perceive any of the other signs of stall. By the time i recognized that
things were too "mushy," it was clearly already too late, but it certainly seemed like it happened incredibly quickly, given less than 5 seconds before i took control, I had seen the off-axis airspeed indicator reading ~45mph. Has anyone experienced
something similar, and what suggestions do you have for aiding in stall/spin avoidance while in a slipping condition (where you need to slow down to be effective, but have no accurate instrumentation). Is wind noise and the comparison of alpha to beta
angles the only real factors an instructor can rely on in this situation?

Many thanks for your thoughts
G7

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I think you need to get back to basics. Two highly ‘intelligent’ pilots doing stupid shit, which has me thinking two Doctors in a Bonanza.
The ‘oops, I did it again’ comment has me believing you lost control over your student and don’t realize it.
But what you want to know is why the aircraft bit you in the ass.
That’s because there was no PIC on board.
I think your alpha and beta question highlights the failure in how you approach being a airmen.
My suggestion is for both of you to fly only on a severe calm day and see if you can teach your student to fly 3 normal patterns in a row. You will learn to extract specific performance from your student and your student will learn how to demonstrate
required maneuvers to a level of ‘Satisfactory’ to pass a flight exam. Start there and build upon that.
Friends?

R

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On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 9:21:22 PM UTC-4, Giaco wrote:

I had an occurrence this afternoon with a student that thankfully did not damage the glider, buy has left me as the instructor with a quite sore lower back and new discovery of a sneaky way a student can kill me. As this is far from the first dumb

mistake I've made as a glider pilot, I figured it might be worth sharing with the community to see who else has experienced it, or perhaps help someone avoid the same circumstance.

Here's the background, using the FAA's PAVE model...

Pilot (Student) - 40ish year old pre-solo student, has been working on powered as well as gliders, as a fun activity to do with his teenage son. Was close to soloing in the fall, and has taken 8 rides this year to hopefully solo soon. Is well educated

and understands most flight safety concepts, but generally needs to be shown how they apply to truly "get" them. Some work/family stress, as he has a high-tempo job that requires difficult scheduling, and had family events to get to at the end of the
flying day.

Pilot (Instructor-Me) - 35 year old instructor, focused heavily on primary instruction for the last 15 years (flying gliders for 20). Has roughly 1000 hours (all in gliders), 90% of which in 2-33's and L-23s, with ~100 hours of PIK-20 and HP-14 time.

Minimal work/family stress, as i'm in between military assignments, and had the afternoon dedicated to helping get this student to solo.

Aircraft - The club's venerable SGS-233. Both instructor and Student have spent significant time in this glider, in these conditions, at this airport. The Glider has no maintenance issues has no issues using either the surface or adjacent grass for

landings.

enVironment - Runway in use was 17 (in the grass). Winds were 170(ish) at 10 gusting to 16. There was some powered and jet traffic, but not a factor on this flights. Airport is in upstate NY, paved runway 3500' long with a grass strip that runs the

full length of the runway. There are several fake coyotes and rough areas on the first 500 feet of each end of the grass strip.

External Pressures - I am currently most active instructor in the club, and will be leaving in 2 weeks for a new military assignment. We have another instructor, but his ability to fly regularly is limited with some medical concerns. The student and

his son are the most active student members of our club, and the entire club is excited to see them continuing to stay motivated and involved in the club. Another member is working on becoming a CFI (thanks SSA scholarships!), but still has a ways to go
before he will have his instructor license. Getting this member to be able to safely solo has been stated as the primary goal for me as the instructor before my departure.

Situation -
On a "pre-solo" pattern flight, the student flew a "TLAR" pattern, with minimal airbrake usage, leading to a short final approach that was ~300ft too high. He had made a similar mistake on two previous flights, but made all of his corrections via full

airbrakes and a forward slip, and then flaring hard with full airbrakes just prior to touchdown. We had discussed ways to better plan in the pattern to avoid the need for such a maneuver, but he found himself in the same situation again (declaring "i'm
not Brittney spears, but oops, I did it again"). He once again executed a full slip, with full airbrakes out, but did not feed nearly as much rudder into the slip as he had before. As we approached 50ft AGL, i looked over his shoulder and saw 45mph on
the airspeed indicator, despite still being in what i thought was a ~20 degree forward slip. As soon as he kicked the left rudder in at 30 or so feet to straighten out, i realized that we were not really flying any more, and took the aircraft. Despite
slamming the airbrakes shut and throwing the nose over, we were unable to regain any significant flying airspeed, and landed flat on the main wheel, and stopped shortly after.

Thoughts/Question for the group - Despite thousands of instructional flights, this is the first time i've been "fooled" by a forward slip disguising a stalled condition. While I did recognize the low wind noise, the nose was lower than I would

anticipate a stall being in a slip (maybe a 50mph pitch picture vs a 40-45). Not being on the controls (hoping that he can complete the task without any instructor involvement), I was unable to perceive any of the other signs of stall. By the time i
recognized that things were too "mushy," it was clearly already too late, but it certainly seemed like it happened incredibly quickly, given less than 5 seconds before i took control, I had seen the off-axis airspeed indicator reading ~45mph. Has anyone
experienced something similar, and what suggestions do you have for aiding in stall/spin avoidance while in a slipping condition (where you need to slow down to be effective, but have no accurate instrumentation). Is wind noise and the comparison of
alpha to beta angles the only real factors an instructor can rely on in this situation?

Many thanks for your thoughts
G7

My comment may seem a bit intemperate:
If the student is flying patterns that are so poor that a slip is required that issue needs to be corrected.
Clearly this student does not have the sight picture. Put effort into getting consistent patterns that do not need slips. Then use slip rarely only for unusual situations.
Recognition of stalls in slips are required training so this situation should be no surprise, certainly not to a CFI.
Also it is important to emphasize it is better to make a safe landing long than take added risk to land in the original intended spot.
Low energy landings in gusty conditions, or likely shear, are especially risky. Maybe teaching correction for high using full airbrakes and adding an extra 10 mph to get rid of excess altitude, before returning to normal speed is a safer approach, especially with a significant headwind.
Do not rush to make artificial goals. When the student is ready it will be clear.
Lastly, stay on guard. The back you save is your own.
UH- 10,000 2-33 training flights.

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On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 9:21:22 PM UTC-4, Giaco wrote:

I had an occurrence this afternoon with a student that thankfully did not damage the glider, buy has left me as the instructor with a quite sore lower back and new discovery of a sneaky way a student can kill me. As this is far from the first dumb

mistake I've made as a glider pilot, I figured it might be worth sharing with the community to see who else has experienced it, or perhaps help someone avoid the same circumstance.

Here's the background, using the FAA's PAVE model...

Pilot (Student) - 40ish year old pre-solo student, has been working on powered as well as gliders, as a fun activity to do with his teenage son. Was close to soloing in the fall, and has taken 8 rides this year to hopefully solo soon. Is well educated

and understands most flight safety concepts, but generally needs to be shown how they apply to truly "get" them. Some work/family stress, as he has a high-tempo job that requires difficult scheduling, and had family events to get to at the end of the
flying day.

Pilot (Instructor-Me) - 35 year old instructor, focused heavily on primary instruction for the last 15 years (flying gliders for 20). Has roughly 1000 hours (all in gliders), 90% of which in 2-33's and L-23s, with ~100 hours of PIK-20 and HP-14 time.

Minimal work/family stress, as i'm in between military assignments, and had the afternoon dedicated to helping get this student to solo.

Aircraft - The club's venerable SGS-233. Both instructor and Student have spent significant time in this glider, in these conditions, at this airport. The Glider has no maintenance issues has no issues using either the surface or adjacent grass for

landings.

enVironment - Runway in use was 17 (in the grass). Winds were 170(ish) at 10 gusting to 16. There was some powered and jet traffic, but not a factor on this flights. Airport is in upstate NY, paved runway 3500' long with a grass strip that runs the

full length of the runway. There are several fake coyotes and rough areas on the first 500 feet of each end of the grass strip.

External Pressures - I am currently most active instructor in the club, and will be leaving in 2 weeks for a new military assignment. We have another instructor, but his ability to fly regularly is limited with some medical concerns. The student and

his son are the most active student members of our club, and the entire club is excited to see them continuing to stay motivated and involved in the club. Another member is working on becoming a CFI (thanks SSA scholarships!), but still has a ways to go
before he will have his instructor license. Getting this member to be able to safely solo has been stated as the primary goal for me as the instructor before my departure.

Situation -
On a "pre-solo" pattern flight, the student flew a "TLAR" pattern, with minimal airbrake usage, leading to a short final approach that was ~300ft too high. He had made a similar mistake on two previous flights, but made all of his corrections via full

airbrakes and a forward slip, and then flaring hard with full airbrakes just prior to touchdown. We had discussed ways to better plan in the pattern to avoid the need for such a maneuver, but he found himself in the same situation again (declaring "i'm
not Brittney spears, but oops, I did it again"). He once again executed a full slip, with full airbrakes out, but did not feed nearly as much rudder into the slip as he had before. As we approached 50ft AGL, i looked over his shoulder and saw 45mph on
the airspeed indicator, despite still being in what i thought was a ~20 degree forward slip. As soon as he kicked the left rudder in at 30 or so feet to straighten out, i realized that we were not really flying any more, and took the aircraft. Despite
slamming the airbrakes shut and throwing the nose over, we were unable to regain any significant flying airspeed, and landed flat on the main wheel, and stopped shortly after.

Thoughts/Question for the group - Despite thousands of instructional flights, this is the first time i've been "fooled" by a forward slip disguising a stalled condition. While I did recognize the low wind noise, the nose was lower than I would

anticipate a stall being in a slip (maybe a 50mph pitch picture vs a 40-45). Not being on the controls (hoping that he can complete the task without any instructor involvement), I was unable to perceive any of the other signs of stall. By the time i
recognized that things were too "mushy," it was clearly already too late, but it certainly seemed like it happened incredibly quickly, given less than 5 seconds before i took control, I had seen the off-axis airspeed indicator reading ~45mph. Has anyone
experienced something similar, and what suggestions do you have for aiding in stall/spin avoidance while in a slipping condition (where you need to slow down to be effective, but have no accurate instrumentation). Is wind noise and the comparison of
alpha to beta angles the only real factors an instructor can rely on in this situation?

Many thanks for your thoughts
G7

I am not an instructor but I am convinced some people should not be flying, their head is not in the game somehow and they are a danger to themselves and others. That being said an instructor should never leave anything to chance during an instructional
flight. I have had instructors who would let you go far beyond where they might should have let you go and others who would take over at the slightest provocation. In my opinion the middle ground is the best. JMHO.

Walt Connelly

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I am not an instructor but I am convinced some people should not be flying,

Just because the US Declaration of Independence stated that "All men are created equal" doesn't mean that we are equal in our abilities. I am a really bad singer, and I don't think that extensive training will improve my ability to render anything but "
Happy Birthday" acceptably- and that only because you only have to suffer through it once a year. And you may request that I NOT sing it next year. I won't mind.

The same goes for many other skills- some people just should realize (after getting sober advice from a qualified Instructor) that maybe piloting an aircraft is just not in their best interest due to spatial unawareness, poor coordination, bad judgment,
inability to multi-task or a number of other reasons. It's just the way it is. Not everybody is a potential Bob Hoover, or Vermeer, or Elvis, or Steven Hawking.

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On 5/19/23 10:48 AM, Mark Mocho wrote:

I am not an instructor but I am convinced some people should not be flying,

Just because the US Declaration of Independence stated that "All men are created equal" doesn't mean that we are equal in our abilities. I am a really bad singer, and I don't think that extensive training will improve my ability to render anything but "

Happy Birthday" acceptably- and that only because you only have to suffer through it once a year. And you may request that I NOT sing it next year. I won't mind.


Saw this on Quora this morning, just before your post came in. Spooky.



"Well, not angry, but embarrassing. After an adequate statute of
limitations, I’ll tattle on myself:

I was flying a new Extra 300 aerobatic aircraft from Florida to Canada.
I was solo, and my gear was all strapped down. It was a glorious spring
day along the Atlantic coast, northbound, VFR. I was monitoring the
Atlanta Center frequency for flight following.

The airplane came equipped with Sirius XM audio, and I was rocking the
wings to the beat of Michael Jackson’s Thriller on the radio. In a fit
of enthusiasm, I smacked the stick with my left hand and rolled merrily inverted…singing at the top of my lungs.

My hand was on the push-to-talk button.

When the song ended I rolled upright, removed my left hand from the
stick and heard the mic sidetone stop. Oh shit.

That’s when a Delta pilot came on the frequency drawling, “I bet you don’t look like Michael either.”

The frequency was silent for about thirty seconds as every cockpit on
the east coast roared in laughter."

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Chris:

I have several comments.

First, to your original question, the best way to to develop a "feel" for when the forward slip is approaching a stall is to practice actually doing the stall in that slip configuration, at safe altitude, several times. It's part of instructor
currency and considering all of the changes that happen (in sight, vibration feel, and noise) in a forward slip, it's not realistic to think that you will just remember where the stall edge is at 50' - without your hands on the controls - if you haven't
experienced it in a long time. Put someone in the front seat, take a high tow, and do it several times. You will learn more doing that than anything you will read here.

The student will fly to the standards that you accept - no more and no less. "Practicing" the same mistake over and over accomplishes something worse than no practice at all. If a student has flown two patterns in a row that required slips and full
brakes at the end, and then does a third one with the same problem, then the student is not being taught pattern planning. TLAR does not mean that the instructor "sits on his hands until the student figures it out." The student cannot decide on his or
her own "That looks about right" until the student is taught "WHAT looks about right" and taught how to get the machine to that point. More on that below.

The student's "Brittany Spears" comment is very telling I think. It says that is mind is more focused more on what you think about him (and how witty he is) than focused on commanding the machine he is flying. Tell him to get his head in the game and
keep it there. Period.

We do not all have the same brains nor the same visual acuity and quick spatial recognition that our best students have. Not all students are as gifted as was Knauff's student who helped him develop "TLAR". With problem students like yours I use an idea
I call "windows in the sky" where while on the ground I sketch out a picture of a runway (from an angle) with giant windows drawn in and located on midfield downwind and another smaller one before the turn to final. I tell the students that the
windows have a bottom and a top altitude and tell them that the position of the windows changes depending on wind direction and strength. I do not use ground reference points - just the position of the "window" to the runway. The student is told "your
job is to fly through the center of the window". In the pattern I ask the student "how are you doing on the window?" and "are you getting ready for the next window"? This is not perfect but it pushes the pattern planning back to an earlier phase and
avoids the kind of last minute stuff that your student is putting himself (and you) through.

Best of luck.

ROY


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Hello G7,

My red flag went up early in your situation description: On a "pre-solo" pattern flight, the student flew a "TLAR" [traffic] pattern...

A more structured traffic pattern should be taught. The student can be told to vocalize a thorough pre-landing briefing to you, the instructor, sufficiently early before entering the traffic pattern. Knowing the student's planned entry location, planned
airspeed, planned altitudes, and specific aim point should help the student perform better, as well as assisting with your comfort level. It surely will alert you, early on, that the student's plan is starting to break down.

In general, and moving away from your posted inquiry, an instructor has to always be ready to choose an appropriate level of intervention, possibly in this order: 1) Do nothing and observe whether the student takes timely and corrective action, on their
own--if the situation permits this, or 2) Ask a guiding question that will hopefully prod the student into making a necessary correction--for example, "What airspeed are you attempting to hold?" or "What is your aim point? 3) Give an ATC-style
instruction, "Lower the pitch, fly 50 knots," or 4) "I have the controls."

As you know, being an instructor is not simple or easy work--being Santa Claus is. Don't be a Santa Claus. Good for you asking for critique. There are those of us who have, and those of us who will.

Raul Boerner

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On Friday, 19 May 2023 at 02:21:22 UTC+1, Giaco wrote:

I had an occurrence this afternoon with a student ...

Hi Giaco,
Apologies in advance for this lengthy post, but I hope you will find
it useful.

In my view, sideslip so near to the ground is too advanced for a
pupil at that stage. Rather than continuing to let him sideslip to
correct his judgement errors, perhaps brief and demonstrate a
rather shallow final approach[*1] (in suitable conditions). In
the de-brief repeat that this was not a demonstration of how he
should do it, it was just to show him how far the glider could go,
to improve his confidence. On subsequent flights let him land
way down the airfield, while he develops his circuit judgements!

You say "I saw 45mph on the ASI". In all gliders that I have
flown, the ASI is worse than useless in sideslip, often hard
against the zero stop! Don't even look at it! (I recognise that
you mentioned this in your final paragraph.)

You say "in a slipping condition (where you need to slow down
to be effective)". In my experience, sideslip is _more_ effective
at higher speeds - although this may interfere with your perception
of how well the approach is going. It would be true to say that
you need to apply some up-elevator to prevent the speed from
increasing excessively.

I think that by "throwing the nose over" you mean "quickly
lowering the nose"?
I must point out that below a certain point (depending on both
your speed and the conditions) you _can_not_ regain an
adequate approach speed. The attempt to do so _first_ results
in a high rate of descent, from which you fail to round out -
- because you have not yet achieved an approach speed suitable
for such a high rate of descent!
Probably the best you can do, with brakes closed (as you did), is
"float" down, and start to round out earlier than normal.
(This risk can arises from a pupil's slow recovery from a failed
winch launch; no need to ask me how I know. And Yes, thank
you, I got away with it :-) And I was able to explain to a couple
of other, senior, pilots who had been similarly caught out earlier
that day by the particularly strong wind-gradient.)

It seems likely that your glider was _not_ stalled during the
approach - so nothing to see. But it may well have stalled when
the extra demand of the round-out was made; that matters
only as a part cause of the failure to round out.

Your mention of alpha and beta angles puzzled me, not being
familiar with this US terminology in gliding. But having done
a little research[*2], I don't see what you could usefully get
from such comparison?

I recognise that you may not take kindly to some of the above,
but I have sought only to be helpful. (PM also sent.)
All the best, James.

[*1]: I remember how enlightening this demonstration was to
me, pre-solo, and I have used it to good effect with my own
pupils, including one junior instructor for whom I was
administering an acceptance check.

[*2]: ChatGPT gave me a clear explanation of "comparison
of alpha to beta angles", but one which was wrong, while
seeming to reinforce your view! When challenged, it agreed
that there was *no* meaningful relationship between the two!!
Caveat emptor!

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On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 8:21:22 PM UTC-5, Giaco wrote:

I had an occurrence this afternoon with a student that thankfully did not damage the glider, buy has left me as the instructor with a quite sore lower back and new discovery of a sneaky way a student can kill me. As this is far from the first dumb

mistake I've made as a glider pilot, I figured it might be worth sharing with the community to see who else has experienced it, or perhaps help someone avoid the same circumstance.

Here's the background, using the FAA's PAVE model...

Pilot (Student) - 40ish year old pre-solo student, has been working on powered as well as gliders, as a fun activity to do with his teenage son. Was close to soloing in the fall, and has taken 8 rides this year to hopefully solo soon. Is well educated

and understands most flight safety concepts, but generally needs to be shown how they apply to truly "get" them. Some work/family stress, as he has a high-tempo job that requires difficult scheduling, and had family events to get to at the end of the
flying day.

Pilot (Instructor-Me) - 35 year old instructor, focused heavily on primary instruction for the last 15 years (flying gliders for 20). Has roughly 1000 hours (all in gliders), 90% of which in 2-33's and L-23s, with ~100 hours of PIK-20 and HP-14 time.

Minimal work/family stress, as i'm in between military assignments, and had the afternoon dedicated to helping get this student to solo.

Aircraft - The club's venerable SGS-233. Both instructor and Student have spent significant time in this glider, in these conditions, at this airport. The Glider has no maintenance issues has no issues using either the surface or adjacent grass for

landings.

enVironment - Runway in use was 17 (in the grass). Winds were 170(ish) at 10 gusting to 16. There was some powered and jet traffic, but not a factor on this flights. Airport is in upstate NY, paved runway 3500' long with a grass strip that runs the

full length of the runway. There are several fake coyotes and rough areas on the first 500 feet of each end of the grass strip.

External Pressures - I am currently most active instructor in the club, and will be leaving in 2 weeks for a new military assignment. We have another instructor, but his ability to fly regularly is limited with some medical concerns. The student and

his son are the most active student members of our club, and the entire club is excited to see them continuing to stay motivated and involved in the club. Another member is working on becoming a CFI (thanks SSA scholarships!), but still has a ways to go
before he will have his instructor license. Getting this member to be able to safely solo has been stated as the primary goal for me as the instructor before my departure.

Situation -
On a "pre-solo" pattern flight, the student flew a "TLAR" pattern, with minimal airbrake usage, leading to a short final approach that was ~300ft too high. He had made a similar mistake on two previous flights, but made all of his corrections via full

airbrakes and a forward slip, and then flaring hard with full airbrakes just prior to touchdown. We had discussed ways to better plan in the pattern to avoid the need for such a maneuver, but he found himself in the same situation again (declaring "i'm
not Brittney spears, but oops, I did it again"). He once again executed a full slip, with full airbrakes out, but did not feed nearly as much rudder into the slip as he had before. As we approached 50ft AGL, i looked over his shoulder and saw 45mph on
the airspeed indicator, despite still being in what i thought was a ~20 degree forward slip. As soon as he kicked the left rudder in at 30 or so feet to straighten out, i realized that we were not really flying any more, and took the aircraft. Despite
slamming the airbrakes shut and throwing the nose over, we were unable to regain any significant flying airspeed, and landed flat on the main wheel, and stopped shortly after.

Thoughts/Question for the group - Despite thousands of instructional flights, this is the first time i've been "fooled" by a forward slip disguising a stalled condition. While I did recognize the low wind noise, the nose was lower than I would

anticipate a stall being in a slip (maybe a 50mph pitch picture vs a 40-45). Not being on the controls (hoping that he can complete the task without any instructor involvement), I was unable to perceive any of the other signs of stall. By the time i
recognized that things were too "mushy," it was clearly already too late, but it certainly seemed like it happened incredibly quickly, given less than 5 seconds before i took control, I had seen the off-axis airspeed indicator reading ~45mph. Has anyone
experienced something similar, and what suggestions do you have for aiding in stall/spin avoidance while in a slipping condition (where you need to slow down to be effective, but have no accurate instrumentation). Is wind noise and the comparison of
alpha to beta angles the only real factors an instructor can rely on in this situation?

Many thanks for your thoughts
G7

A collection of excellent comments.
I would add that in these wind conditions, especially if there is thermal activity (sunlight), that friction-layer turbulence sometimes invisibly, dramatically, changes the apparent wind, causing stall, as I have experienced. This is a very good reason
to put the nose well down in a slip, well enough to keep the controls feeling firm, and plan to round out inches above the turf , then full spoiler in that flare. "Fast" is required for lift. In addition to remaining well above stall, in a steep descent,
in my experience, perhaps 10 mph of forward speed is "spent" in the round-off to decelerate from the rapid rate of descent. Speed is safe, especially with a good headwind component. It's always good to get close to stall speed only when comfortably close
to the runway.
Danl J

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On Friday, May 19, 2023 at 2:38:38 PM UTC-7, danlj wrote:

On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 8:21:22 PM UTC-5, Giaco wrote:

I had an occurrence this afternoon with a student that thankfully did not damage the glider, buy has left me as the instructor with a quite sore lower back and new discovery of a sneaky way a student can kill me. As this is far from the first dumb

mistake I've made as a glider pilot, I figured it might be worth sharing with the community to see who else has experienced it, or perhaps help someone avoid the same circumstance.

Here's the background, using the FAA's PAVE model...

Pilot (Student) - 40ish year old pre-solo student, has been working on powered as well as gliders, as a fun activity to do with his teenage son. Was close to soloing in the fall, and has taken 8 rides this year to hopefully solo soon. Is well

educated and understands most flight safety concepts, but generally needs to be shown how they apply to truly "get" them. Some work/family stress, as he has a high-tempo job that requires difficult scheduling, and had family events to get to at the end
of the flying day.

Pilot (Instructor-Me) - 35 year old instructor, focused heavily on primary instruction for the last 15 years (flying gliders for 20). Has roughly 1000 hours (all in gliders), 90% of which in 2-33's and L-23s, with ~100 hours of PIK-20 and HP-14 time.

Minimal work/family stress, as i'm in between military assignments, and had the afternoon dedicated to helping get this student to solo.

Aircraft - The club's venerable SGS-233. Both instructor and Student have spent significant time in this glider, in these conditions, at this airport. The Glider has no maintenance issues has no issues using either the surface or adjacent grass for

landings.

enVironment - Runway in use was 17 (in the grass). Winds were 170(ish) at 10 gusting to 16. There was some powered and jet traffic, but not a factor on this flights. Airport is in upstate NY, paved runway 3500' long with a grass strip that runs the

full length of the runway. There are several fake coyotes and rough areas on the first 500 feet of each end of the grass strip.

External Pressures - I am currently most active instructor in the club, and will be leaving in 2 weeks for a new military assignment. We have another instructor, but his ability to fly regularly is limited with some medical concerns. The student and

his son are the most active student members of our club, and the entire club is excited to see them continuing to stay motivated and involved in the club. Another member is working on becoming a CFI (thanks SSA scholarships!), but still has a ways to go
before he will have his instructor license. Getting this member to be able to safely solo has been stated as the primary goal for me as the instructor before my departure.

Situation -
On a "pre-solo" pattern flight, the student flew a "TLAR" pattern, with minimal airbrake usage, leading to a short final approach that was ~300ft too high. He had made a similar mistake on two previous flights, but made all of his corrections via

full airbrakes and a forward slip, and then flaring hard with full airbrakes just prior to touchdown. We had discussed ways to better plan in the pattern to avoid the need for such a maneuver, but he found himself in the same situation again (declaring "
i'm not Brittney spears, but oops, I did it again"). He once again executed a full slip, with full airbrakes out, but did not feed nearly as much rudder into the slip as he had before. As we approached 50ft AGL, i looked over his shoulder and saw 45mph
on the airspeed indicator, despite still being in what i thought was a ~20 degree forward slip. As soon as he kicked the left rudder in at 30 or so feet to straighten out, i realized that we were not really flying any more, and took the aircraft. Despite
slamming the airbrakes shut and throwing the nose over, we were unable to regain any significant flying airspeed, and landed flat on the main wheel, and stopped shortly after.

Thoughts/Question for the group - Despite thousands of instructional flights, this is the first time i've been "fooled" by a forward slip disguising a stalled condition. While I did recognize the low wind noise, the nose was lower than I would

anticipate a stall being in a slip (maybe a 50mph pitch picture vs a 40-45). Not being on the controls (hoping that he can complete the task without any instructor involvement), I was unable to perceive any of the other signs of stall. By the time i
recognized that things were too "mushy," it was clearly already too late, but it certainly seemed like it happened incredibly quickly, given less than 5 seconds before i took control, I had seen the off-axis airspeed indicator reading ~45mph. Has anyone
experienced something similar, and what suggestions do you have for aiding in stall/spin avoidance while in a slipping condition (where you need to slow down to be effective, but have no accurate instrumentation). Is wind noise and the comparison of
alpha to beta angles the only real factors an instructor can rely on in this situation?

Many thanks for your thoughts
G7

A collection of excellent comments.
I would add that in these wind conditions, especially if there is thermal activity (sunlight), that friction-layer turbulence sometimes invisibly, dramatically, changes the apparent wind, causing stall, as I have experienced. This is a very good reason

to put the nose well down in a slip, well enough to keep the controls feeling firm, and plan to round out inches above the turf , then full spoiler in that flare. "Fast" is required for lift. In addition to remaining well above stall, in a steep descent,
in my experience, perhaps 10 mph of forward speed is "spent" in the round-off to decelerate from the rapid rate of descent. Speed is safe, especially with a good headwind component. It's always good to get close to stall speed only when comfortably close
to the runway.

Danl J

Flying a good pattern in a glider is an exercise in energy management - you have to be at the right altitude and at the right airspeed at every key point in the pattern. The student should be able to confirm these to the instructor. When you said "
leading to a short final approach that was ~300ft too high" I already knew that the pattern was blown and you should have taken command. Then you said, "I had seen the off-axis airspeed indicator reading ~45mph." Airspeed doesn't just drop 10 mph
instantaneously, so you were not paying attention to it prior to that point (and neither was the student). This is just inexcusable. On top of that, you mentioned that the winds were gusting to 16 (not sure if that is knots or mph), so an additional 8 to
10 mph of airspeed should have been added to that. Poor airspeed control gets pilots (and passengers) killed, so monitoring it must be a top priority. I agree with the comment that this student should be doing a TLAR pattern until the demonstrate the
ability to repeatedly fly a structured pattern.

Tom 2G

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If you are flying at a safe approach speed before entering the slip, take a good mental picture of the attitude. If you maintain that attitude throughout the slip then you will maintain that airspeed & you will still be flying that airspeed when you come
out of the slip. By all means practice stalling in slips at altitude but in the K13s & K21s where I've instructed the rudder loses effectiveness before the elevator & the glider starts to come out of the slip before it stalls.

Using airbrakes while slipping complicates things as every time you adjust the airbrakes you need to change the attitude and if in a decent slip the ASI will be useless. In this case I would "bookend" the slip with airbrakes, ie airbrakes first, then
slip & come out of the slip before moving the airbrakes. Bear in mind that full airbrakes and a decent slip will have a training glider coming down like a brick. It takes more energy to roundout from a steep approach than a shallow one so my preference
is to come out of the slip before the roundout height, continuing the approach with just airbrakes.

I've never flown a 2-33, I see the flight manual says it stalls at 35mph with the airbrakes open when flying dual. When landing in to a wind of 10 to 16 mph I would expect to lose about 8mph of airspeed due to horizontal wind shear when close to the
ground, that part of the flight when we stop looking at the ASI & start looking ahead to judge the roundout. The glider has to have enough energy to roundout, which is why the manual says "It is unsafe, however, to make an approach with the dive brakes
open in the speed range of 36 to 43mph as the rate of descent is so great that a proper flare-out for landing cannot be made." Judging from your description you may have had enough energy to safely roundout in calm, nil wind conditions, but that the
additional loss of airspeed caused by descending in to slower moving air during the roundout meant that you ran of energy and stalled before finishing rounding out.

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Thanks for the responses, both those genuinely helpful, and those intended to uphold the long held tradition of cyber bullying on RAS.

First off, obviously in this situation I did not take the aircraft soon enough. Identifying that I made a mistake as an instructor was part of the prompt, not really the question. While easy to assume that I'm just an idiot who should not be instructing
and doesn't know

I probably mis-described the scenario as a regular pre-solo training flight. The ride in question was an evaluation of his readiness for solo, and while I do teach proper energy management and planning in the pattern, To Rual's point, I also want to know
that when a student does make a mistake, they take the proper actions to safely land the glider. On this particular flight, we still had 3000 feet of runway in front of us, and both the grass and runway options to choose from. His comment about Brittney
was because we had specifically discussed proper energy management in the pattern prior to takeoff, and those were the words he chose to identifying his mistake. While I could have taken the aircraft as soon as he failed to use enough airbrakes on base
leg, I felt it important to observe his decision making as he worked though his options to correct a mistake made in the pattern. Prior to entering the slip, the student did have appropriate airspeed control and had flown the rest of pattern within
acceptable margins. The first mistake he made was neglecting to use enough airbrake on base, which led to his high final for his chosen aimpoint and the end of the runway.

I appreciate Roy, and "me"'s comments on proper visualization of the pitch picture prior to entering the slip. The entire question to the group was because I have never experienced so much kinetic energy loss before when being in slip. Where I was
surprised in this situation was that the significantly smaller sideslip angle and lower than acceptable airspeed seemed to mimic the same noise and feel (while I was not on the controls), of a higher sideslip angle, higher energy approach. I mentioned
the airspeed indicator because we all know that it does not read correctly in a slip, but perhaps in this situation it was actually reading nearly correctly, because I had misjudged both the sideslip (beta) and angle of attack (alpha). Thus yes, we were
in a more dangerous situation, that I absolutely should have, and normally would have corrected, but had never experienced that condition before, and did not recognize it for what it was.

Thanks for all of the candid feedback. I don't often post here, but figured it might provide some benefit to some of the other imperfect pilots and instructors out there.
G7

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Well Giaco, there are bold pilots and old pilots. With over 50 years of teaching, observing, and learning glider flying, I saw numerous red flags based on what you wrote and mostly how you wrote it. And reading your response above gives me more reasons
to be alarmed.
Take note that I did not advise you to quit teaching, only to step back and think about your methods. Almost crashing required a ‘kick in the ass’ response, more so since you included a bizarre rambling of Britney Speers ,Xs and Ys, and
?????.
I apologize if I hurt your feelings, I thought you could handle it since you were leaving for a new military assignment.
I’m not adjusting to all this new wokeness as everyone under the age of 40 think I should. My goal was to save a disaster from happening.
I wish you safe journey and a long life.

R

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On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 9:31:03 AM UTC-7, R wrote:

Well Giaco, there are bold pilots and old pilots. With over 50 years of teaching, observing, and learning glider flying, I saw numerous red flags based on what you wrote and mostly how you wrote it. And reading your response above gives me more reasons

to be alarmed.

Take note that I did not advise you to quit teaching, only to step back and think about your methods. Almost crashing required a ‘kick in the ass’ response, more so since you included a bizarre rambling of Britney Speers ,Xs and Ys, and
?????.
I apologize if I hurt your feelings, I thought you could handle it since you were leaving for a new military assignment.
I’m not adjusting to all this new wokeness as everyone under the age of 40 think I should. My goal was to save a disaster from happening.
I wish you safe journey and a long life.

R

Yeah, I had the same feeling. I thought Giaco wanted a critique of his method of instruction, but I was wrong. I never would have wasted my time if I had ANY inclining that he would take it as "cyber bullying." I have better things to do with my time. I
hope he does some serious self-introspection.

Tom 2G

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On Saturday, 20 May 2023 at 15:54:08 UTC+1, Giaco wrote:

Thanks for the responses, both those genuinely helpful, and those intended to uphold the long held tradition of cyber bullying on RAS.
...

Hi Chris ... I hope I've got your name right now ;-o)
You make an excellent point about wanting to see your pupil quickly recognise and fix his own mistakes, rather than perfectly fly in a formulaic way seemingly beloved of power pilots, who often make truly unhelpful gliding instructors.

Revealing to see who responds to your comments about cyber-bullying. Like you, I am no snowflake - but I think your comments are entirely apposite.
James.

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On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 3:09:29 PM UTC-7, metca...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, 20 May 2023 at 15:54:08 UTC+1, Giaco wrote:

Thanks for the responses, both those genuinely helpful, and those intended to uphold the long held tradition of cyber bullying on RAS.
...

Hi Chris ... I hope I've got your name right now ;-o)
You make an excellent point about wanting to see your pupil quickly recognise and fix his own mistakes, rather than perfectly fly in a formulaic way seemingly beloved of power pilots, who often make truly unhelpful gliding instructors.

Revealing to see who responds to your comments about cyber-bullying. Like you, I am no snowflake - but I think your comments are entirely apposite.
James.

This could have been a fatal just as easily. Then, we would be having an entirely different conversation.

Tom 2G

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I think there is a lesson here for ALL pilots: We all make mistakes. The important thing is to learn from them (if they are not immediately fatal) and change what we do so we can avoid them in the future.

This is something I tried to teach my daughters when I was teaching them how to drive. I never scolded them for making a mistake, especially a first time error. We all make errors all the time, but some people are oblivious or are satisfied with
blaming someone else. If YOU can recognize a problem situation, YOU can analyze what happened, how YOU contributed to the situation, and what YOU can do in the future to avoid or at least improve that situation. Any time you think "that was a close
call" or even "that was awkward", it is an opportunity to figure out what YOU can do to improve your safety.

This constant self-evaluation is what distinguishes the safe pilots from the unsafe.

Rich L.

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On Sunday, May 21, 2023 at 10:23:15 AM UTC-7, Richard Livingston wrote:

I think there is a lesson here for ALL pilots: We all make mistakes. The important thing is to learn from them (if they are not immediately fatal) and change what we do so we can avoid them in the future.

This is something I tried to teach my daughters when I was teaching them how to drive. I never scolded them for making a mistake, especially a first time error. We all make errors all the time, but some people are oblivious or are satisfied with

blaming someone else. If YOU can recognize a problem situation, YOU can analyze what happened, how YOU contributed to the situation, and what YOU can do in the future to avoid or at least improve that situation. Any time you think "that was a close call"
or even "that was awkward", it is an opportunity to figure out what YOU can do to improve your safety.

This constant self-evaluation is what distinguishes the safe pilots from the unsafe.

Rich L.

You're absolutely right, Rich, which was the spirit of my critique. Who knows who Giaco was referring to with his "cyber bullying" comment - it might have been me, or it might have been someone else. All I know is that NONE of the comments could have
been characterized as cyber bullying, NONE! If I can save a life by my insight I DON'T CARE what others think. In fact, I would be REMISS if I didn't make that comment. Giaco should spend a lot of time reflecting on his attitude because it is screwed up.
I am sure he will call that "cyber bullying' - at least to himself.

Tom 2G

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