Boobie has been posting much derogatory, mostly false, opinions on motorgliders for some time now. Have ANY of you canceled your MG order and switched to a motorless glider because of this?

On the other hand, have ANY of you canceled your motorless glider order and switched to an MG?

Please, I am interested ONLY in serious replies (hint: Boobie, DON'T reply!).

Tom 2G

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

It really is a shame how much of this forum is about stoking this argument again and again, as if there wasn't enough other stuff to talk about

The launch is a small fraction of the flight, however it happens, and most flights do not end in any form of retrieve

I don't have one, but I'm not opposed to the possibility of it happening in future, though unlikely. I doubt this is a rare opinion. I understand a large proportion of new gliders are so equipped, but we aren't all in for new gliders.

On Monday, 15 May 2023 at 03:08:09 UTC+1, 2G wrote:

Boobie has been posting much derogatory, mostly false, opinions on motorgliders for some time now. Have ANY of you canceled your MG order and switched to a motorless glider because of this?

On the other hand, have ANY of you canceled your motorless glider order and switched to an MG?

Please, I am interested ONLY in serious replies (hint: Boobie, DON'T reply!).

Tom 2G

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 4:25:39 AM UTC-7, andy l wrote:

It really is a shame how much of this forum is about stoking this argument again and again, as if there wasn't enough other stuff to talk about

The launch is a small fraction of the flight, however it happens, and most flights do not end in any form of retrieve

I don't have one, but I'm not opposed to the possibility of it happening in future, though unlikely. I doubt this is a rare opinion. I understand a large proportion of new gliders are so equipped, but we aren't all in for new gliders.
On Monday, 15 May 2023 at 03:08:09 UTC+1, 2G wrote:

Boobie has been posting much derogatory, mostly false, opinions on motorgliders for some time now. Have ANY of you canceled your MG order and switched to a motorless glider because of this?

On the other hand, have ANY of you canceled your motorless glider order and switched to an MG?

Please, I am interested ONLY in serious replies (hint: Boobie, DON'T reply!).

Tom 2G

In Old Bob's case, it's not the launch part that bothers him, it's the ability to self-retrieve. For him, it's a personal and emotional decision, not a practical or logical reasons that will sway other pilots. That's not a bad way to make the choice;
after all, "personal and emotional" is how most of us decided to fly gliders. Pilots using practical reasons for the towed/motor choice will be looking at the purchase costs, complexity, and operating expenses that come with increased freedom of
operation, are not "purity-seekers", and won't pay any attention to Old Bob.

I've treated him as a useful foil to spread information about the value and costs of motorgliders. So, I suspect Old Bob has drawn additional attention to motorgliders, and this has, perhaps, increased the number of pilots interested in them.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Their discussion doesn't sway me at all and, I suspect, it doesn't sway
anyone else, either.

I bought a motorglider for the simple reason of convenience:

no waiting in line on the really good days,
not missing a good day because there's no tow available,
ability to self retrieve after a land out on a paved airport.

On the other hand:

engine might break, burn, not start,
higher empty weight a disadvantage on weak days,
the land where I fly is too rough for a takeoff so I must have a decent
airport within range at all times,
higher maintenance,
steeper learning curve
no trailer.

In balance, the motor glider (in my opinion) is more of a hassle than a
pure glider but, for me, it allows me to fly whenever I want and take my
wife with me. She loves flying it, too!

Dan
5J

On 5/15/23 05:25, andy l wrote:

It really is a shame how much of this forum is about stoking this argument again and again, as if there wasn't enough other stuff to talk about

The launch is a small fraction of the flight, however it happens, and most flights do not end in any form of retrieve

I don't have one, but I'm not opposed to the possibility of it happening in future, though unlikely. I doubt this is a rare opinion. I understand a large proportion of new gliders are so equipped, but we aren't all in for new gliders.

On Monday, 15 May 2023 at 03:08:09 UTC+1, 2G wrote:

Boobie has been posting much derogatory, mostly false, opinions on motorgliders for some time now. Have ANY of you canceled your MG order and switched to a motorless glider because of this?

On the other hand, have ANY of you canceled your motorless glider order and switched to an MG?

Please, I am interested ONLY in serious replies (hint: Boobie, DON'T reply!).

Tom 2G

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sunday, May 14, 2023 at 9:08:09 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:

Boobie has been posting much derogatory, mostly false, opinions on motorgliders for some time now. Have ANY of you canceled your MG order and switched to a motorless glider because of this?

On the other hand, have ANY of you canceled your motorless glider order and switched to an MG?

Please, I am interested ONLY in serious replies (hint: Boobie, DON'T reply!).

Tom 2G

I used to really enjoy the comaraderie and accepting attitudes of RAS.
I always felt that if I needed advice that the group would be gentle and
truly helpful. I now feel alienated from RAS and I am going to discontinue reading and sometimes posting on this group due to the divisiveness
and negative attitudes of many recent people posting here. Goodbye.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 11:09:48 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 4:25:39 AM UTC-7, andy l wrote:

It really is a shame how much of this forum is about stoking this argument again and again, as if there wasn't enough other stuff to talk about

The launch is a small fraction of the flight, however it happens, and most flights do not end in any form of retrieve

I don't have one, but I'm not opposed to the possibility of it happening in future, though unlikely. I doubt this is a rare opinion. I understand a large proportion of new gliders are so equipped, but we aren't all in for new gliders.
On Monday, 15 May 2023 at 03:08:09 UTC+1, 2G wrote:

Boobie has been posting much derogatory, mostly false, opinions on motorgliders for some time now. Have ANY of you canceled your MG order and switched to a motorless glider because of this?

On the other hand, have ANY of you canceled your motorless glider order and switched to an MG?

Please, I am interested ONLY in serious replies (hint: Boobie, DON'T reply!).

Tom 2G

In Old Bob's case, it's not the launch part that bothers him, it's the ability to self-retrieve. For him, it's a personal and emotional decision, not a practical or logical reasons that will sway other pilots. That's not a bad way to make the choice;

after all, "personal and emotional" is how most of us decided to fly gliders. Pilots using practical reasons for the towed/motor choice will be looking at the purchase costs, complexity, and operating expenses that come with increased freedom of
operation, are not "purity-seekers", and won't pay any attention to Old Bob.

I've treated him as a useful foil to spread information about the value and costs of motorgliders. So, I suspect Old Bob has drawn additional attention to motorgliders, and this has, perhaps, increased the number of pilots interested in them.

Eric, perhaps you have finally figured out that my opinions are exactly what they should be, MY OPINION, and should not nor intended to sway any individual from enjoying their choice of sailplane. I have even stated that someday when I cannot get a tow I
might strongly consider a self launch. I could not see myself with a sustainer type, although they certainly are popular and just as beautiful as a pure glider as long as it has the get me home gadget hidden within the fuselage.
My basic contention is that the pure glider presents the pilot with much more and better decision making opportunities. I also think that the scoring system should reflect the difference between a pure glider and a motorglider. What I have been very
successful at is bringing out the insecurities of pilots like Tommy, and I fly with many motorglider pilots and contrary to what most people think we all get a few laughs out of the whole RAS venue. The conclusion that I offer is that most of the MG guys
are would much too tight, they are about as weak as the crankshaft on those Jurassic Solo engines, the Wankel engine guys are much better except for Terrible Tommy.
Now most of the MG guys think that landing out is a terrible thing, I have never had that belief, landing out is part of the game, it builds character and keeps your skills at a higher level that pushing the GMH button. I always leave the keys to my
truck on the console when I fly, there is cash for fuel if needed and my trailer is stored inside and everything needed for the return home, Eileen is very capable of driving the truck and trailer. OBTP

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

When I flew single-seat pure gliders, I always found land outs to be
exciting adventures. I met new people, drank home made beer, got bitten
by a dog once, had dinner out... What's the down side, except getting
bitten?

A few days ago my buddy was on a declared 300 km flight and was getting
low about 2/3 of the way around. I radioed that I would land, hook up
his trailer, and be on the road within a half hour. As I blew off my
altitude, he made a low save and was back on course.

I'd used up my altitude but I had stuff to do in the hangar so I landed
anyway, and got to work. A couple of hours later he texted me that he'd
landed out just 12 miles short of the finish (on a small air park) and
he got a ride in a Kitfox back to Moriarty. He retrieved himself, but
bought me dinner, anyway.

The adventure of landing out is not to be taken lightly!

Dan
5J

On 5/15/23 13:16, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

Eric, perhaps you have finally figured out that my opinions are exactly what they should be, MY OPINION, and should not nor intended to sway any individual from enjoying their choice of sailplane. I have even stated that someday when I cannot get a tow

I might strongly consider a self launch. I could not see myself with a sustainer type, although they certainly are popular and just as beautiful as a pure glider as long as it has the get me home gadget hidden within the fuselage.

My basic contention is that the pure glider presents the pilot with much more and better decision making opportunities. I also think that the scoring system should reflect the difference between a pure glider and a motorglider. What I have been very

successful at is bringing out the insecurities of pilots like Tommy, and I fly with many motorglider pilots and contrary to what most people think we all get a few laughs out of the whole RAS venue. The conclusion that I offer is that most of the MG guys
are would much too tight, they are about as weak as the crankshaft on those Jurassic Solo engines, the Wankel engine guys are much better except for Terrible Tommy.

Now most of the MG guys think that landing out is a terrible thing, I have never had that belief, landing out is part of the game, it builds character and keeps your skills at a higher level that pushing the GMH button. I always leave the keys to my

truck on the console when I fly, there is cash for fuel if needed and my trailer is stored inside and everything needed for the return home, Eileen is very capable of driving the truck and trailer. OBTP

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 3:56:55 PM UTC-4, robert holliday wrote:

On Sunday, May 14, 2023 at 9:08:09 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:

Boobie has been posting much derogatory, mostly false, opinions on motorgliders for some time now. Have ANY of you canceled your MG order and switched to a motorless glider because of this?

On the other hand, have ANY of you canceled your motorless glider order and switched to an MG?

Please, I am interested ONLY in serious replies (hint: Boobie, DON'T reply!).

Tom 2G

I used to really enjoy the comaraderie and accepting attitudes of RAS.
I always felt that if I needed advice that the group would be gentle and truly helpful. I now feel alienated from RAS and I am going to discontinue reading and sometimes posting on this group due to the divisiveness
and negative attitudes of many recent people posting here. Goodbye.

Mr Holliday, apparently some are more easily "triggered' or offended than others. I find most of the repartee here very amusing. However if you want to see some attacks and offensive comments, find my post about getting the FAA involved in prohibiting
the Schweizer type hook on tow planes. I take life with a grain of salt and a root beer float, I suggest you do the same. People are a$$holes most of the time and the rest of the time too.

Walt Connelly
Former tow pilot
Now happy helicopter pilot

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

To be honest I find OBTP amusing most of the time.
2G not so much. He seem to take OBTP way too seriously, which I think is why OBTP keep trolling him…
To answer 2G poll, as I am aging and may start finding landouts less desiring I am actually getting closer to putting my first order for a motorglider.

Ramy

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 6:01:55 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:

On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 3:56:55 PM UTC-4, robert holliday wrote:

On Sunday, May 14, 2023 at 9:08:09 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:

Boobie has been posting much derogatory, mostly false, opinions on motorgliders for some time now. Have ANY of you canceled your MG order and switched to a motorless glider because of this?

On the other hand, have ANY of you canceled your motorless glider order and switched to an MG?

Please, I am interested ONLY in serious replies (hint: Boobie, DON'T reply!).

Tom 2G

I used to really enjoy the comaraderie and accepting attitudes of RAS.
I always felt that if I needed advice that the group would be gentle and truly helpful. I now feel alienated from RAS and I am going to discontinue reading and sometimes posting on this group due to the divisiveness
and negative attitudes of many recent people posting here. Goodbye.

Mr Holliday, apparently some are more easily "triggered' or offended than others. I find most of the repartee here very amusing. However if you want to see some attacks and offensive comments, find my post about getting the FAA involved in prohibiting

the Schweizer type hook on tow planes. I take life with a grain of salt and a root beer float, I suggest you do the same. People are a$$holes most of the time and the rest of the time too.

Walt Connelly
Former tow pilot
Now happy helicopter pilot

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 6:01:55 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:

On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 3:56:55 PM UTC-4, robert holliday wrote:

On Sunday, May 14, 2023 at 9:08:09 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:

Boobie has been posting much derogatory, mostly false, opinions on motorgliders for some time now. Have ANY of you canceled your MG order and switched to a motorless glider because of this?

On the other hand, have ANY of you canceled your motorless glider order and switched to an MG?

Please, I am interested ONLY in serious replies (hint: Boobie, DON'T reply!).

Tom 2G

I used to really enjoy the comaraderie and accepting attitudes of RAS.
I always felt that if I needed advice that the group would be gentle and truly helpful. I now feel alienated from RAS and I am going to discontinue reading and sometimes posting on this group due to the divisiveness
and negative attitudes of many recent people posting here. Goodbye.

Mr Holliday, apparently some are more easily "triggered' or offended than others. I find most of the repartee here very amusing. However if you want to see some attacks and offensive comments, find my post about getting the FAA involved in prohibiting

the Schweizer type hook on tow planes. I take life with a grain of salt and a root beer float, I suggest you do the same. People are a$$holes most of the time and the rest of the time too.

Walt Connelly
Former tow pilot
Now happy helicopter pilot

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 5:09:07 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:

To be honest I find OBTP amusing most of the time.
2G not so much. He seem to take OBTP way too seriously, which I think is why OBTP keep trolling him…
To answer 2G poll, as I am aging and may start finding landouts less desiring I am actually getting closer to putting my first order for a motorglider.

Ramy
On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 6:01:55 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:

On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 3:56:55 PM UTC-4, robert holliday wrote:

On Sunday, May 14, 2023 at 9:08:09 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:

Boobie has been posting much derogatory, mostly false, opinions on motorgliders for some time now. Have ANY of you canceled your MG order and switched to a motorless glider because of this?

On the other hand, have ANY of you canceled your motorless glider order and switched to an MG?

Please, I am interested ONLY in serious replies (hint: Boobie, DON'T reply!).

Tom 2G

I used to really enjoy the comaraderie and accepting attitudes of RAS.
I always felt that if I needed advice that the group would be gentle and truly helpful. I now feel alienated from RAS and I am going to discontinue
reading and sometimes posting on this group due to the divisiveness
and negative attitudes of many recent people posting here. Goodbye.

Mr Holliday, apparently some are more easily "triggered' or offended than others. I find most of the repartee here very amusing. However if you want to see some attacks and offensive comments, find my post about getting the FAA involved in

prohibiting the Schweizer type hook on tow planes. I take life with a grain of salt and a root beer float, I suggest you do the same. People are a$$holes most of the time and the rest of the time too.

Walt Connelly
Former tow pilot
Now happy helicopter pilot

I spent most of the day getting stuck with needles and the nurse asking me, "Did That Hurt"??? hell yes it hurt, that is why I came back for more!
Now let me make this loud and clear, I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH SELF LAUNCH SAILPLANES, but please do not expose yourself after the launch!!! I promise all of you that if and when I have a self launch sailplane I will NEVER expose myself to get home,
perverts do that in the parking lot at Wal Mart, I had rather land in the swamp than start that smelly engine. Now let the facts confirm what I have always said about my problem with motorgliders . We all or most of us look at OLC as a reference to how
well we do compared to others when we fly, I certainly do, I look at myself compared to others flights within the same area and region. I have always stated that the scoring between motorgliders and PURE gliders is skewed, not only is it skewed, but
there is a huge difference in decision making between the two. Let me give you a good example, just yesterday I looked at the OLC flights and noticed a motorglider in my neck of the woods scoring well and I immediately had to dissect the flight on OLC.
The Motorglider climbed to over 9K AGL shut the engine down and was awarded points from that point being a pure glider, I had rather drink a case of BUD LIGHT that get those kind of points. So my point once again is that there is a difference in skills
between the moto glide pilot and the PURIST, I would be embarrassed to take points for something like that, it is like kissing your sister, you could do better or you could do worse!
Yes, like Ramy once said, "OBTP Is Like A Train Wreck, You Gotta Stop And Look".
Guys, loosen up, life is short, have fun and stir the pot, but don't let your friends fly those damn motorgliders. OBTP

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 4:09:07 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:

To be honest I find OBTP amusing most of the time.
2G not so much. He seem to take OBTP way too seriously, which I think is why OBTP keep trolling him…
To answer 2G poll, as I am aging and may start finding landouts less desiring I am actually getting closer to putting my first order for a motorglider.

What took you so long, Ramy? Get that self-launch motorglider, don't look back. The '29 is a fantastic glider but you can do even better.
Herb

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Herb I think it took you a little longer than me…
I am still looking for an electric solution which is good enough for me.

Ramy

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 2:21:37 PM UTC-7, Herbert Kilian wrote:

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 4:09:07 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:

To be honest I find OBTP amusing most of the time.
2G not so much. He seem to take OBTP way too seriously, which I think is why OBTP keep trolling him…
To answer 2G poll, as I am aging and may start finding landouts less desiring I am actually getting closer to putting my first order for a motorglider.

What took you so long, Ramy? Get that self-launch motorglider, don't look back. The '29 is a fantastic glider but you can do even better.
Herb

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 5/16/23 3:09 PM, Ramy wrote:

To be honest I find OBTP amusing most of the time.

You and about three other people.

2G not so much. He seem to take OBTP way too seriously, which I think is why OBTP keep trolling him…

Exactly. His(?) postings aren't about motorgliders, they're just
endless flamebbaiting, to get attention. It's not just Tom, it's Eric
and a few others that constantly take the bait, which keeps him going.

People have learned not to respond to Daryl Kabatoff, you'd think they
would figure out OBTP eventually. The only difference is Daryl actually
makes sense.

To answer 2G poll, as I am aging and may start finding landouts less desiring I am actually getting closer to putting my first order for a motorglider.

Excellent! Can we assume it's going to be the vaunted Jeta you've often
posted about? Get yourself a Honda generator and save the planet! One
more coal-fired glider would probably bring down the grid.

- Dave

P.S. Don't go for the "49 State" Honda, those are banned in the great
state of California!

Ramy

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 6:01:55 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:

On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 3:56:55 PM UTC-4, robert holliday wrote:

On Sunday, May 14, 2023 at 9:08:09 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:

Boobie has been posting much derogatory, mostly false, opinions on motorgliders for some time now. Have ANY of you canceled your MG order and switched to a motorless glider because of this?

On the other hand, have ANY of you canceled your motorless glider order and switched to an MG?

Please, I am interested ONLY in serious replies (hint: Boobie, DON'T reply!).

Tom 2G

I used to really enjoy the comaraderie and accepting attitudes of RAS.
I always felt that if I needed advice that the group would be gentle and >>> truly helpful. I now feel alienated from RAS and I am going to discontinue >>> reading and sometimes posting on this group due to the divisiveness
and negative attitudes of many recent people posting here. Goodbye.

Mr Holliday, apparently some are more easily "triggered' or offended than others. I find most of the repartee here very amusing. However if you want to see some attacks and offensive comments, find my post about getting the FAA involved in prohibiting

the Schweizer type hook on tow planes. I take life with a grain of salt and a root beer float, I suggest you do the same. People are a$$holes most of the time and the rest of the time too.

Walt Connelly
Former tow pilot
Now happy helicopter pilot

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

LOL, I never thought of it in terms of exposing oneself. I will never look at an exposed motor the same again.
As for OLC point you wrong obtp, you don’t get the whole 9000 feet climb, the scoring stops 3300 feet below start altitude at the end of the flight. The extra climb only give you extra range to get to lift, but in the west we sometime take nearly that
high of a tow from the same reason.

Ramy

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 3:07:08 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 5:09:07 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:

To be honest I find OBTP amusing most of the time.
2G not so much. He seem to take OBTP way too seriously, which I think is why OBTP keep trolling him…
To answer 2G poll, as I am aging and may start finding landouts less desiring I am actually getting closer to putting my first order for a motorglider.

Ramy
On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 6:01:55 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:

On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 3:56:55 PM UTC-4, robert holliday wrote:

On Sunday, May 14, 2023 at 9:08:09 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:

Boobie has been posting much derogatory, mostly false, opinions on motorgliders for some time now. Have ANY of you canceled your MG order and switched to a motorless glider because of this?

On the other hand, have ANY of you canceled your motorless glider order and switched to an MG?

Please, I am interested ONLY in serious replies (hint: Boobie, DON'T reply!).

Tom 2G

I used to really enjoy the comaraderie and accepting attitudes of RAS. I always felt that if I needed advice that the group would be gentle and
truly helpful. I now feel alienated from RAS and I am going to discontinue
reading and sometimes posting on this group due to the divisiveness and negative attitudes of many recent people posting here. Goodbye.

Mr Holliday, apparently some are more easily "triggered' or offended than others. I find most of the repartee here very amusing. However if you want to see some attacks and offensive comments, find my post about getting the FAA involved in

prohibiting the Schweizer type hook on tow planes. I take life with a grain of salt and a root beer float, I suggest you do the same. People are a$$holes most of the time and the rest of the time too.

Walt Connelly
Former tow pilot
Now happy helicopter pilot

I spent most of the day getting stuck with needles and the nurse asking me, "Did That Hurt"??? hell yes it hurt, that is why I came back for more!
Now let me make this loud and clear, I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH SELF LAUNCH SAILPLANES, but please do not expose yourself after the launch!!! I promise all of you that if and when I have a self launch sailplane I will NEVER expose myself to get home,

perverts do that in the parking lot at Wal Mart, I had rather land in the swamp than start that smelly engine. Now let the facts confirm what I have always said about my problem with motorgliders . We all or most of us look at OLC as a reference to how
well we do compared to others when we fly, I certainly do, I look at myself compared to others flights within the same area and region. I have always stated that the scoring between motorgliders and PURE gliders is skewed, not only is it skewed, but
there is a huge difference in decision making between the two. Let me give you a good example, just yesterday I looked at the OLC flights and noticed a motorglider in my neck of the woods scoring well and I immediately had to dissect the flight on OLC.
The Motorglider climbed to over 9K AGL shut the engine down and was awarded points from that point being a pure glider, I had rather drink a case of BUD LIGHT that get those kind of points. So my point once again is that there is a difference in skills
between the moto glide pilot and the PURIST, I would be embarrassed to take points for something like that, it is like kissing your sister, you could do better or you could do worse!

Yes, like Ramy once said, "OBTP Is Like A Train Wreck, You Gotta Stop And Look".
Guys, loosen up, life is short, have fun and stir the pot, but don't let your friends fly those damn motorgliders. OBTP

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Dave, I never considered nor even mentioned the Jeta.
Maybe a JS3 RES or AS33ME. or FES?

Ramy

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 5:36:24 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:

On 5/16/23 3:09 PM, Ramy wrote:

To be honest I find OBTP amusing most of the time.

You and about three other people.

2G not so much. He seem to take OBTP way too seriously, which I think is why OBTP keep trolling him…

Exactly. His(?) postings aren't about motorgliders, they're just
endless flamebbaiting, to get attention. It's not just Tom, it's Eric
and a few others that constantly take the bait, which keeps him going.

People have learned not to respond to Daryl Kabatoff, you'd think they
would figure out OBTP eventually. The only difference is Daryl actually makes sense.

To answer 2G poll, as I am aging and may start finding landouts less desiring I am actually getting closer to putting my first order for a motorglider.

Excellent! Can we assume it's going to be the vaunted Jeta you've often posted about? Get yourself a Honda generator and save the planet! One
more coal-fired glider would probably bring down the grid.

- Dave

P.S. Don't go for the "49 State" Honda, those are banned in the great
state of California!

Ramy

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 6:01:55 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:

On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 3:56:55 PM UTC-4, robert holliday wrote:

On Sunday, May 14, 2023 at 9:08:09 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:

Boobie has been posting much derogatory, mostly false, opinions on motorgliders for some time now. Have ANY of you canceled your MG order and switched to a motorless glider because of this?

On the other hand, have ANY of you canceled your motorless glider order and switched to an MG?

Please, I am interested ONLY in serious replies (hint: Boobie, DON'T reply!).

Tom 2G

I used to really enjoy the comaraderie and accepting attitudes of RAS. >>> I always felt that if I needed advice that the group would be gentle and >>> truly helpful. I now feel alienated from RAS and I am going to discontinue
reading and sometimes posting on this group due to the divisiveness
and negative attitudes of many recent people posting here. Goodbye.

Mr Holliday, apparently some are more easily "triggered' or offended than others. I find most of the repartee here very amusing. However if you want to see some attacks and offensive comments, find my post about getting the FAA involved in

prohibiting the Schweizer type hook on tow planes. I take life with a grain of salt and a root beer float, I suggest you do the same. People are a$$holes most of the time and the rest of the time too.

Walt Connelly
Former tow pilot
Now happy helicopter pilot

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 3:07:08 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 5:09:07 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:

To be honest I find OBTP amusing most of the time.
2G not so much. He seem to take OBTP way too seriously, which I think is why OBTP keep trolling him…
To answer 2G poll, as I am aging and may start finding landouts less desiring I am actually getting closer to putting my first order for a motorglider.

Ramy
On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 6:01:55 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:

On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 3:56:55 PM UTC-4, robert holliday wrote:

On Sunday, May 14, 2023 at 9:08:09 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:

Boobie has been posting much derogatory, mostly false, opinions on motorgliders for some time now. Have ANY of you canceled your MG order and switched to a motorless glider because of this?

On the other hand, have ANY of you canceled your motorless glider order and switched to an MG?

Please, I am interested ONLY in serious replies (hint: Boobie, DON'T reply!).

Tom 2G

I used to really enjoy the comaraderie and accepting attitudes of RAS. I always felt that if I needed advice that the group would be gentle and
truly helpful. I now feel alienated from RAS and I am going to discontinue
reading and sometimes posting on this group due to the divisiveness and negative attitudes of many recent people posting here. Goodbye.

Mr Holliday, apparently some are more easily "triggered' or offended than others. I find most of the repartee here very amusing. However if you want to see some attacks and offensive comments, find my post about getting the FAA involved in

prohibiting the Schweizer type hook on tow planes. I take life with a grain of salt and a root beer float, I suggest you do the same. People are a$$holes most of the time and the rest of the time too.

Walt Connelly
Former tow pilot
Now happy helicopter pilot

I spent most of the day getting stuck with needles and the nurse asking me, "Did That Hurt"??? hell yes it hurt, that is why I came back for more!
Now let me make this loud and clear, I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH SELF LAUNCH SAILPLANES, but please do not expose yourself after the launch!!! I promise all of you that if and when I have a self launch sailplane I will NEVER expose myself to get home,

perverts do that in the parking lot at Wal Mart, I had rather land in the swamp than start that smelly engine. Now let the facts confirm what I have always said about my problem with motorgliders . We all or most of us look at OLC as a reference to how
well we do compared to others when we fly, I certainly do, I look at myself compared to others flights within the same area and region. I have always stated that the scoring between motorgliders and PURE gliders is skewed, not only is it skewed, but
there is a huge difference in decision making between the two. Let me give you a good example, just yesterday I looked at the OLC flights and noticed a motorglider in my neck of the woods scoring well and I immediately had to dissect the flight on OLC.
The Motorglider climbed to over 9K AGL shut the engine down and was awarded points from that point being a pure glider, I had rather drink a case of BUD LIGHT that get those kind of points. So my point once again is that there is a difference in skills
between the moto glide pilot and the PURIST, I would be embarrassed to take points for something like that, it is like kissing your sister, you could do better or you could do worse!

Yes, like Ramy once said, "OBTP Is Like A Train Wreck, You Gotta Stop And Look".
Guys, loosen up, life is short, have fun and stir the pot, but don't let your friends fly those damn motorgliders. OBTP

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 3:07:08 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 5:09:07 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:

To be honest I find OBTP amusing most of the time.
2G not so much. He seem to take OBTP way too seriously, which I think is why OBTP keep trolling him…
To answer 2G poll, as I am aging and may start finding landouts less desiring I am actually getting closer to putting my first order for a motorglider.

Ramy
On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 6:01:55 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:

On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 3:56:55 PM UTC-4, robert holliday wrote:

On Sunday, May 14, 2023 at 9:08:09 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:

Boobie has been posting much derogatory, mostly false, opinions on motorgliders for some time now. Have ANY of you canceled your MG order and switched to a motorless glider because of this?

On the other hand, have ANY of you canceled your motorless glider order and switched to an MG?

Please, I am interested ONLY in serious replies (hint: Boobie, DON'T reply!).

Tom 2G

I used to really enjoy the comaraderie and accepting attitudes of RAS. I always felt that if I needed advice that the group would be gentle and
truly helpful. I now feel alienated from RAS and I am going to discontinue
reading and sometimes posting on this group due to the divisiveness and negative attitudes of many recent people posting here. Goodbye.

Mr Holliday, apparently some are more easily "triggered' or offended than others. I find most of the repartee here very amusing. However if you want to see some attacks and offensive comments, find my post about getting the FAA involved in

prohibiting the Schweizer type hook on tow planes. I take life with a grain of salt and a root beer float, I suggest you do the same. People are a$$holes most of the time and the rest of the time too.

Walt Connelly
Former tow pilot
Now happy helicopter pilot

I spent most of the day getting stuck with needles and the nurse asking me, "Did That Hurt"??? hell yes it hurt, that is why I came back for more!
Now let me make this loud and clear, I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH SELF LAUNCH SAILPLANES, but please do not expose yourself after the launch!!! I promise all of you that if and when I have a self launch sailplane I will NEVER expose myself to get home,

perverts do that in the parking lot at Wal Mart, I had rather land in the swamp than start that smelly engine. Now let the facts confirm what I have always said about my problem with motorgliders . We all or most of us look at OLC as a reference to how
well we do compared to others when we fly, I certainly do, I look at myself compared to others flights within the same area and region. I have always stated that the scoring between motorgliders and PURE gliders is skewed, not only is it skewed, but
there is a huge difference in decision making between the two. Let me give you a good example, just yesterday I looked at the OLC flights and noticed a motorglider in my neck of the woods scoring well and I immediately had to dissect the flight on OLC.
The Motorglider climbed to over 9K AGL shut the engine down and was awarded points from that point being a pure glider, I had rather drink a case of BUD LIGHT that get those kind of points. So my point once again is that there is a difference in skills
between the moto glide pilot and the PURIST, I would be embarrassed to take points for something like that, it is like kissing your sister, you could do better or you could do worse!

Yes, like Ramy once said, "OBTP Is Like A Train Wreck, You Gotta Stop And Look".
Guys, loosen up, life is short, have fun and stir the pot, but don't let your friends fly those damn motorgliders. OBTP

As Ramy points out, OLC/FAI scoring requires the finish be no more than 1000M below the start of scoring, which may or may not be where the engine is stopped. Note that a towed glider can also be towed to 9000' to start a soaring flight, and is scored
the same way as a motorglider that has self-launched to 9000'. It is surprising that someone who claims to have so much experience over so many years of flying with so many different pilots didn't know one of the most basic FAI scoring rules.

I suggest you consider an electric self-launch glider with it's simplicity and reduced maintenance compared to a combustion glider. It's smaller self-retrieve range would not be an impediment to someone determined to never self-retrieve.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 12:26:29 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 3:07:08 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 5:09:07 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:

To be honest I find OBTP amusing most of the time.
2G not so much. He seem to take OBTP way too seriously, which I think is why OBTP keep trolling him…
To answer 2G poll, as I am aging and may start finding landouts less desiring I am actually getting closer to putting my first order for a motorglider.

Ramy
On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 6:01:55 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:

On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 3:56:55 PM UTC-4, robert holliday wrote:

On Sunday, May 14, 2023 at 9:08:09 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:

Boobie has been posting much derogatory, mostly false, opinions on motorgliders for some time now. Have ANY of you canceled your MG order and switched to a motorless glider because of this?

On the other hand, have ANY of you canceled your motorless glider order and switched to an MG?

Please, I am interested ONLY in serious replies (hint: Boobie, DON'T reply!).

Tom 2G

I used to really enjoy the comaraderie and accepting attitudes of RAS.
I always felt that if I needed advice that the group would be gentle and
truly helpful. I now feel alienated from RAS and I am going to discontinue
reading and sometimes posting on this group due to the divisiveness and negative attitudes of many recent people posting here. Goodbye.

Mr Holliday, apparently some are more easily "triggered' or offended than others. I find most of the repartee here very amusing. However if you want to see some attacks and offensive comments, find my post about getting the FAA involved in

prohibiting the Schweizer type hook on tow planes. I take life with a grain of salt and a root beer float, I suggest you do the same. People are a$$holes most of the time and the rest of the time too.

Walt Connelly
Former tow pilot
Now happy helicopter pilot

I spent most of the day getting stuck with needles and the nurse asking me, "Did That Hurt"??? hell yes it hurt, that is why I came back for more!
Now let me make this loud and clear, I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH SELF LAUNCH SAILPLANES, but please do not expose yourself after the launch!!! I promise all of you that if and when I have a self launch sailplane I will NEVER expose myself to get home,

perverts do that in the parking lot at Wal Mart, I had rather land in the swamp than start that smelly engine. Now let the facts confirm what I have always said about my problem with motorgliders . We all or most of us look at OLC as a reference to how
well we do compared to others when we fly, I certainly do, I look at myself compared to others flights within the same area and region. I have always stated that the scoring between motorgliders and PURE gliders is skewed, not only is it skewed, but
there is a huge difference in decision making between the two. Let me give you a good example, just yesterday I looked at the OLC flights and noticed a motorglider in my neck of the woods scoring well and I immediately had to dissect the flight on OLC.
The Motorglider climbed to over 9K AGL shut the engine down and was awarded points from that point being a pure glider, I had rather drink a case of BUD LIGHT that get those kind of points. So my point once again is that there is a difference in skills
between the moto glide pilot and the PURIST, I would be embarrassed to take points for something like that, it is like kissing your sister, you could do better or you could do worse!

Yes, like Ramy once said, "OBTP Is Like A Train Wreck, You Gotta Stop And Look".
Guys, loosen up, life is short, have fun and stir the pot, but don't let your friends fly those damn motorgliders. OBTP

As Ramy points out, OLC/FAI scoring requires the finish be no more than 1000M below the start of scoring, which may or may not be where the engine is stopped. Note that a towed glider can also be towed to 9000' to start a soaring flight, and is scored

the same way as a motorglider that has self-launched to 9000'. It is surprising that someone who claims to have so much experience over so many years of flying with so many different pilots didn't know one of the most basic FAI scoring rules.

I suggest you consider an electric self-launch glider with it's simplicity and reduced maintenance compared to a combustion glider. It's smaller self-retrieve range would not be an impediment to someone determined to never self-retrieve.

Eric, did I mention FAI? OBTP

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 4:12:06 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 12:26:29 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

As Ramy points out, OLC/FAI scoring requires the finish be no more than 1000M below the start of scoring, which may or may not be where the engine is stopped. Note that a towed glider can also be towed to 9000' to start a soaring flight, and is

scored the same way as a motorglider that has self-launched to 9000'. It is surprising that someone who claims to have so much experience over so many years of flying with so many different pilots didn't know one of the most basic FAI scoring rules.

I suggest you consider an electric self-launch glider with it's simplicity and reduced maintenance compared to a combustion glider. It's smaller self-retrieve range would not be an impediment to someone determined to never self-retrieve.

Eric, did I mention FAI? OBTP

That is irrelevant, as the issue Ramy and I addressed was something you specifically discussed: the "unfair" points obtained by taking a 9000' tow. Do you still think a high tow like that gives you 9000' to glide off and get lots of extra points,
compared to a pilot that takes a 3000' tow? Try "dissecting" that flight again, and note carefully the scoring start height and scoring finish height. The finish point should be less than 1000M lower than the start point.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 3:59:25 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 4:12:06 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 12:26:29 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

As Ramy points out, OLC/FAI scoring requires the finish be no more than 1000M below the start of scoring, which may or may not be where the engine is stopped. Note that a towed glider can also be towed to 9000' to start a soaring flight, and is

scored the same way as a motorglider that has self-launched to 9000'. It is surprising that someone who claims to have so much experience over so many years of flying with so many different pilots didn't know one of the most basic FAI scoring rules.

I suggest you consider an electric self-launch glider with it's simplicity and reduced maintenance compared to a combustion glider. It's smaller self-retrieve range would not be an impediment to someone determined to never self-retrieve.

Eric, did I mention FAI? OBTP

That is irrelevant, as the issue Ramy and I addressed was something you specifically discussed: the "unfair" points obtained by taking a 9000' tow. Do you still think a high tow like that gives you 9000' to glide off and get lots of extra points,

compared to a pilot that takes a 3000' tow? Try "dissecting" that flight again, and note carefully the scoring start height and scoring finish height. The finish point should be less than 1000M lower than the start point.
Glad you mentioned that , the start point was almost 4K above what any normal PURIST would have taken. Look at the the graph yourself. Bob

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 4:00:59 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 3:59:25 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 4:12:06 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 12:26:29 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

As Ramy points out, OLC/FAI scoring requires the finish be no more than 1000M below the start of scoring, which may or may not be where the engine is stopped. Note that a towed glider can also be towed to 9000' to start a soaring flight, and is

scored the same way as a motorglider that has self-launched to 9000'. It is surprising that someone who claims to have so much experience over so many years of flying with so many different pilots didn't know one of the most basic FAI scoring rules.

I suggest you consider an electric self-launch glider with it's simplicity and reduced maintenance compared to a combustion glider. It's smaller self-retrieve range would not be an impediment to someone determined to never self-retrieve.

Eric, did I mention FAI? OBTP

That is irrelevant, as the issue Ramy and I addressed was something you specifically discussed: the "unfair" points obtained by taking a 9000' tow. Do you still think a high tow like that gives you 9000' to glide off and get lots of extra points,

compared to a pilot that takes a 3000' tow? Try "dissecting" that flight again, and note carefully the scoring start height and scoring finish height. The finish point should be less than 1000M lower than the start point.

Glad you mentioned that , the start point was almost 4K above what any normal PURIST would have taken. Look at the the graph yourself. Bob

The May 15, 2023 flight by Todd Tracy, was in a Pipestrel Sinus, a high wing, fixed gear "touring" motorglider of modest performance. He obviously climbed high enough to safely cross the Everglades, then shut down the motor when within gliding distance
of airport near to where to soaring was likely to start. Most of his flights are like that. He flew the flight according to the rules, and was scored according to the rules. What rule changes do you propose to prevent this "unfair" kind of flying? Note
that an unpowered glider could do the exact same flight by being towed to 9000'. This flight is not one only a motorglider could do.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 12:48:37 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 9:49:25 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 4:00:59 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 3:59:25 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 4:12:06 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 12:26:29 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

As Ramy points out, OLC/FAI scoring requires the finish be no more than 1000M below the start of scoring, which may or may not be where the engine is stopped. Note that a towed glider can also be towed to 9000' to start a soaring flight, and

is scored the same way as a motorglider that has self-launched to 9000'. It is surprising that someone who claims to have so much experience over so many years of flying with so many different pilots didn't know one of the most basic FAI scoring rules.

I suggest you consider an electric self-launch glider with it's simplicity and reduced maintenance compared to a combustion glider. It's smaller self-retrieve range would not be an impediment to someone determined to never self-retrieve.

Eric, did I mention FAI? OBTP

That is irrelevant, as the issue Ramy and I addressed was something you specifically discussed: the "unfair" points obtained by taking a 9000' tow. Do you still think a high tow like that gives you 9000' to glide off and get lots of extra points,

compared to a pilot that takes a 3000' tow? Try "dissecting" that flight again, and note carefully the scoring start height and scoring finish height. The finish point should be less than 1000M lower than the start point.

Glad you mentioned that , the start point was almost 4K above what any normal PURIST would have taken. Look at the the graph yourself. Bob

The May 15, 2023 flight by Todd Tracy, was in a Pipestrel Sinus, a high wing, fixed gear "touring" motorglider of modest performance. He obviously climbed high enough to safely cross the Everglades, then shut down the motor when within gliding

distance of airport near to where to soaring was likely to start. Most of his flights are like that. He flew the flight according to the rules, and was scored according to the rules. What rule changes do you propose to prevent this "unfair" kind of
flying? Note that an unpowered glider could do the exact same flight by being towed to 9000'. This flight is not one only a motorglider could do.

Both you and I would be ashamed to claim a flight like that, maybe I am giving you too much credit. OBTP

I have claimed flights like that, as there is no shame in following the rules, and this rule that bothers you so much was in use before you began soaring; in fact, the rule was developed when everyone flew towed gliders, as motorgliders were unavailable
50+ years ago.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 9:49:25 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 4:00:59 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 3:59:25 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 4:12:06 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 12:26:29 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

As Ramy points out, OLC/FAI scoring requires the finish be no more than 1000M below the start of scoring, which may or may not be where the engine is stopped. Note that a towed glider can also be towed to 9000' to start a soaring flight, and is

scored the same way as a motorglider that has self-launched to 9000'. It is surprising that someone who claims to have so much experience over so many years of flying with so many different pilots didn't know one of the most basic FAI scoring rules.

I suggest you consider an electric self-launch glider with it's simplicity and reduced maintenance compared to a combustion glider. It's smaller self-retrieve range would not be an impediment to someone determined to never self-retrieve.

Eric, did I mention FAI? OBTP

That is irrelevant, as the issue Ramy and I addressed was something you specifically discussed: the "unfair" points obtained by taking a 9000' tow. Do you still think a high tow like that gives you 9000' to glide off and get lots of extra points,

compared to a pilot that takes a 3000' tow? Try "dissecting" that flight again, and note carefully the scoring start height and scoring finish height. The finish point should be less than 1000M lower than the start point.

Glad you mentioned that , the start point was almost 4K above what any normal PURIST would have taken. Look at the the graph yourself. Bob

The May 15, 2023 flight by Todd Tracy, was in a Pipestrel Sinus, a high wing, fixed gear "touring" motorglider of modest performance. He obviously climbed high enough to safely cross the Everglades, then shut down the motor when within gliding distance

of airport near to where to soaring was likely to start. Most of his flights are like that. He flew the flight according to the rules, and was scored according to the rules. What rule changes do you propose to prevent this "unfair" kind of flying? Note
that an unpowered glider could do the exact same flight by being towed to 9000'. This flight is not one only a motorglider could do.

Both you and I would be ashamed to claim a flight like that, maybe I am giving you too much credit. OBTP

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 4:03:42 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 12:48:37 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 9:49:25 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 4:00:59 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 3:59:25 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 4:12:06 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 12:26:29 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

As Ramy points out, OLC/FAI scoring requires the finish be no more than 1000M below the start of scoring, which may or may not be where the engine is stopped. Note that a towed glider can also be towed to 9000' to start a soaring flight,

and is scored the same way as a motorglider that has self-launched to 9000'. It is surprising that someone who claims to have so much experience over so many years of flying with so many different pilots didn't know one of the most basic FAI scoring
rules.

I suggest you consider an electric self-launch glider with it's simplicity and reduced maintenance compared to a combustion glider. It's smaller self-retrieve range would not be an impediment to someone determined to never self-retrieve.

Eric, did I mention FAI? OBTP

That is irrelevant, as the issue Ramy and I addressed was something you specifically discussed: the "unfair" points obtained by taking a 9000' tow. Do you still think a high tow like that gives you 9000' to glide off and get lots of extra

points, compared to a pilot that takes a 3000' tow? Try "dissecting" that flight again, and note carefully the scoring start height and scoring finish height. The finish point should be less than 1000M lower than the start point.

Glad you mentioned that , the start point was almost 4K above what any normal PURIST would have taken. Look at the the graph yourself. Bob

The May 15, 2023 flight by Todd Tracy, was in a Pipestrel Sinus, a high wing, fixed gear "touring" motorglider of modest performance. He obviously climbed high enough to safely cross the Everglades, then shut down the motor when within gliding

distance of airport near to where to soaring was likely to start. Most of his flights are like that. He flew the flight according to the rules, and was scored according to the rules. What rule changes do you propose to prevent this "unfair" kind of
flying? Note that an unpowered glider could do the exact same flight by being towed to 9000'. This flight is not one only a motorglider could do.

Both you and I would be ashamed to claim a flight like that, maybe I am giving you too much credit. OBTP

I have claimed flights like that, as there is no shame in following the rules, and this rule that bothers you so much was in use before you began soaring; in fact, the rule was developed when everyone flew towed gliders, as motorgliders were

unavailable 50+ years ago.
Maybe that is the way you guys and gals out West claim points, but us Floridians seem to have a bit more class. OBTP

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Obtp I invite you to come to Williams or Hollister and show us how to fly long xc from a local tow on days like we had this last week in the west. Clearly all of us should be ashamed with our 500-700km flights which often require 6-8000 feet tow to get
from the airport to the convergence zone.

Ramy

On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 1:20:16 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 4:03:42 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 12:48:37 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 9:49:25 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 4:00:59 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 3:59:25 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 4:12:06 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 12:26:29 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

As Ramy points out, OLC/FAI scoring requires the finish be no more than 1000M below the start of scoring, which may or may not be where the engine is stopped. Note that a towed glider can also be towed to 9000' to start a soaring flight,

and is scored the same way as a motorglider that has self-launched to 9000'. It is surprising that someone who claims to have so much experience over so many years of flying with so many different pilots didn't know one of the most basic FAI scoring
rules.

I suggest you consider an electric self-launch glider with it's simplicity and reduced maintenance compared to a combustion glider. It's smaller self-retrieve range would not be an impediment to someone determined to never self-retrieve.

Eric, did I mention FAI? OBTP

That is irrelevant, as the issue Ramy and I addressed was something you specifically discussed: the "unfair" points obtained by taking a 9000' tow. Do you still think a high tow like that gives you 9000' to glide off and get lots of extra

points, compared to a pilot that takes a 3000' tow? Try "dissecting" that flight again, and note carefully the scoring start height and scoring finish height. The finish point should be less than 1000M lower than the start point.

Glad you mentioned that , the start point was almost 4K above what any normal PURIST would have taken. Look at the the graph yourself. Bob

The May 15, 2023 flight by Todd Tracy, was in a Pipestrel Sinus, a high wing, fixed gear "touring" motorglider of modest performance. He obviously climbed high enough to safely cross the Everglades, then shut down the motor when within gliding

distance of airport near to where to soaring was likely to start. Most of his flights are like that. He flew the flight according to the rules, and was scored according to the rules. What rule changes do you propose to prevent this "unfair" kind of
flying? Note that an unpowered glider could do the exact same flight by being towed to 9000'. This flight is not one only a motorglider could do.

Both you and I would be ashamed to claim a flight like that, maybe I am giving you too much credit. OBTP

I have claimed flights like that, as there is no shame in following the rules, and this rule that bothers you so much was in use before you began soaring; in fact, the rule was developed when everyone flew towed gliders, as motorgliders were

unavailable 50+ years ago.

Maybe that is the way you guys and gals out West claim points, but us Floridians seem to have a bit more class. OBTP

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 5:45:40 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:

Obtp I invite you to come to Williams or Hollister and show us how to fly long xc from a local tow on days like we had this last week in the west. Clearly all of us should be ashamed with our 500-700km flights which often require 6-8000 feet tow to get

from the airport to the convergence zone.

Ramy
On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 1:20:16 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 4:03:42 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 12:48:37 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 9:49:25 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 4:00:59 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 3:59:25 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 4:12:06 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 12:26:29 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

As Ramy points out, OLC/FAI scoring requires the finish be no more than 1000M below the start of scoring, which may or may not be where the engine is stopped. Note that a towed glider can also be towed to 9000' to start a soaring flight,

and is scored the same way as a motorglider that has self-launched to 9000'. It is surprising that someone who claims to have so much experience over so many years of flying with so many different pilots didn't know one of the most basic FAI scoring
rules.

I suggest you consider an electric self-launch glider with it's simplicity and reduced maintenance compared to a combustion glider. It's smaller self-retrieve range would not be an impediment to someone determined to never self-retrieve.

Eric, did I mention FAI? OBTP

That is irrelevant, as the issue Ramy and I addressed was something you specifically discussed: the "unfair" points obtained by taking a 9000' tow. Do you still think a high tow like that gives you 9000' to glide off and get lots of extra

points, compared to a pilot that takes a 3000' tow? Try "dissecting" that flight again, and note carefully the scoring start height and scoring finish height. The finish point should be less than 1000M lower than the start point.

Glad you mentioned that , the start point was almost 4K above what any normal PURIST would have taken. Look at the the graph yourself. Bob

The May 15, 2023 flight by Todd Tracy, was in a Pipestrel Sinus, a high wing, fixed gear "touring" motorglider of modest performance. He obviously climbed high enough to safely cross the Everglades, then shut down the motor when within gliding

distance of airport near to where to soaring was likely to start. Most of his flights are like that. He flew the flight according to the rules, and was scored according to the rules. What rule changes do you propose to prevent this "unfair" kind of
flying? Note that an unpowered glider could do the exact same flight by being towed to 9000'. This flight is not one only a motorglider could do.

Both you and I would be ashamed to claim a flight like that, maybe I am giving you too much credit. OBTP

I have claimed flights like that, as there is no shame in following the rules, and this rule that bothers you so much was in use before you began soaring; in fact, the rule was developed when everyone flew towed gliders, as motorgliders were

unavailable 50+ years ago.

Maybe that is the way you guys and gals out West claim points, but us Floridians seem to have a bit more class. OBTP

Ramy, please correct me if I am incorrect, you release altitude was 1020 meters AGL on your 5-13 flight Not 9K AGL. I understand your conditions very well, you guys get in the wave and run like hell, no apology needed. Bring your ship to Florida and we
will go for a ride, it may well be a humbling experience. We do 3, 4, 5k flights with no wave or mountains except for the occasional landfill which is no more than 150 feet . I do enjoy your flights and watch them often, but lets not compare apples to
oranges. OBTP

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 3:50:50 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 5:45:40 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:

Obtp I invite you to come to Williams or Hollister and show us how to fly long xc from a local tow on days like we had this last week in the west. Clearly all of us should be ashamed with our 500-700km flights which often require 6-8000 feet tow to

get from the airport to the convergence zone.

Ramy
On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 1:20:16 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 4:03:42 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 12:48:37 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 9:49:25 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 4:00:59 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 3:59:25 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 4:12:06 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 12:26:29 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

As Ramy points out, OLC/FAI scoring requires the finish be no more than 1000M below the start of scoring, which may or may not be where the engine is stopped. Note that a towed glider can also be towed to 9000' to start a soaring

flight, and is scored the same way as a motorglider that has self-launched to 9000'. It is surprising that someone who claims to have so much experience over so many years of flying with so many different pilots didn't know one of the most basic FAI
scoring rules.

I suggest you consider an electric self-launch glider with it's simplicity and reduced maintenance compared to a combustion glider. It's smaller self-retrieve range would not be an impediment to someone determined to never self-

retrieve.

Eric, did I mention FAI? OBTP

That is irrelevant, as the issue Ramy and I addressed was something you specifically discussed: the "unfair" points obtained by taking a 9000' tow. Do you still think a high tow like that gives you 9000' to glide off and get lots of extra

points, compared to a pilot that takes a 3000' tow? Try "dissecting" that flight again, and note carefully the scoring start height and scoring finish height. The finish point should be less than 1000M lower than the start point.

Glad you mentioned that , the start point was almost 4K above what any normal PURIST would have taken. Look at the the graph yourself. Bob

The May 15, 2023 flight by Todd Tracy, was in a Pipestrel Sinus, a high wing, fixed gear "touring" motorglider of modest performance. He obviously climbed high enough to safely cross the Everglades, then shut down the motor when within

gliding distance of airport near to where to soaring was likely to start. Most of his flights are like that. He flew the flight according to the rules, and was scored according to the rules. What rule changes do you propose to prevent this "unfair" kind
of flying? Note that an unpowered glider could do the exact same flight by being towed to 9000'. This flight is not one only a motorglider could do.

Both you and I would be ashamed to claim a flight like that, maybe I am giving you too much credit. OBTP

I have claimed flights like that, as there is no shame in following the rules, and this rule that bothers you so much was in use before you began soaring; in fact, the rule was developed when everyone flew towed gliders, as motorgliders were

unavailable 50+ years ago.

Maybe that is the way you guys and gals out West claim points, but us Floridians seem to have a bit more class. OBTP

Ramy, please correct me if I am incorrect, you release altitude was 1020 meters AGL on your 5-13 flight Not 9K AGL. I understand your conditions very well, you guys get in the wave and run like hell, no apology needed. Bring your ship to Florida and we

will go for a ride, it may well be a humbling experience. We do 3, 4, 5k flights with no wave or mountains except for the occasional landfill which is no more than 150 feet . I do enjoy your flights and watch them often, but lets not compare apples to
oranges. OBTP
So, the important thing is the AGL release height, and not the fact Ramy has 8000' of altitude over his intended landing place? What rule changes do you propose for OLC to prevent the "unfair" flying done by pilots that take lau;nches greater than 2000'?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 4:25:39 AM UTC-7, andy l wrote:

It really is a shame how much of this forum is about stoking this argument again and again, as if there wasn't enough other stuff to talk about

The launch is a small fraction of the flight, however it happens, and most flights do not end in any form of retrieve

I don't have one, but I'm not opposed to the possibility of it happening in future, though unlikely. I doubt this is a rare opinion. I understand a large proportion of new gliders are so equipped, but we aren't all in for new gliders.
On Monday, 15 May 2023 at 03:08:09 UTC+1, 2G wrote:

Boobie has been posting much derogatory, mostly false, opinions on motorgliders for some time now. Have ANY of you canceled your MG order and switched to a motorless glider because of this?

On the other hand, have ANY of you canceled your motorless glider order and switched to an MG?

Please, I am interested ONLY in serious replies (hint: Boobie, DON'T reply!).

Tom 2G

Sorry, Andy, but it IS soaring-related and relevant. I am with you, however, I wish Boobie would desist with this ongoing false slandering of the MG community.

Tom 2G

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 4:35:07 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:

On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 4:25:39 AM UTC-7, andy l wrote:

It really is a shame how much of this forum is about stoking this argument again and again, as if there wasn't enough other stuff to talk about

The launch is a small fraction of the flight, however it happens, and most flights do not end in any form of retrieve

I don't have one, but I'm not opposed to the possibility of it happening in future, though unlikely. I doubt this is a rare opinion. I understand a large proportion of new gliders are so equipped, but we aren't all in for new gliders.
On Monday, 15 May 2023 at 03:08:09 UTC+1, 2G wrote:

Boobie has been posting much derogatory, mostly false, opinions on motorgliders for some time now. Have ANY of you canceled your MG order and switched to a motorless glider because of this?

On the other hand, have ANY of you canceled your motorless glider order and switched to an MG?

Please, I am interested ONLY in serious replies (hint: Boobie, DON'T reply!).

Tom 2G

Sorry, Andy, but it IS soaring-related and relevant. I am with you, however, I wish Boobie would desist with this ongoing false slandering of the MG community.

Tom 2G

And now, Old Bob is complaining about motorglider pilots that take a high launch, even though a towed glider could take an equally high launch.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 4:41:24 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 4:35:07 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:

On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 4:25:39 AM UTC-7, andy l wrote:

It really is a shame how much of this forum is about stoking this argument again and again, as if there wasn't enough other stuff to talk about

The launch is a small fraction of the flight, however it happens, and most flights do not end in any form of retrieve

I don't have one, but I'm not opposed to the possibility of it happening in future, though unlikely. I doubt this is a rare opinion. I understand a large proportion of new gliders are so equipped, but we aren't all in for new gliders.
On Monday, 15 May 2023 at 03:08:09 UTC+1, 2G wrote:

Boobie has been posting much derogatory, mostly false, opinions on motorgliders for some time now. Have ANY of you canceled your MG order and switched to a motorless glider because of this?

On the other hand, have ANY of you canceled your motorless glider order and switched to an MG?

Please, I am interested ONLY in serious replies (hint: Boobie, DON'T reply!).

Tom 2G

Sorry, Andy, but it IS soaring-related and relevant. I am with you, however, I wish Boobie would desist with this ongoing false slandering of the MG community.

Tom 2G

And now, Old Bob is complaining about motorglider pilots that take a high launch, even though a towed glider could take an equally high launch.

To summarize, NOBODY has cancelled their MG orders as Boobie recommended, and TWO non-motorized glider pilots are considering the purchase of an MG (Boobie being one of them). This is what I expected (however, I DIDN'T expect Boobie to be actually
looking at MGs). The NUMBER ONE reason pilots buy MGs is because of convenience. I have NEVER met a MG owner who said he bought the glider to save money on tow fees.

For the life of me, I NEVER expected a response to this poll about EXPOSING one's self. This is definitely DSM-5 material.

Tom 2G

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 4:59:40 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:

On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 4:41:24 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 4:35:07 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:

On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 4:25:39 AM UTC-7, andy l wrote:

It really is a shame how much of this forum is about stoking this argument again and again, as if there wasn't enough other stuff to talk about

The launch is a small fraction of the flight, however it happens, and most flights do not end in any form of retrieve

I don't have one, but I'm not opposed to the possibility of it happening in future, though unlikely. I doubt this is a rare opinion. I understand a large proportion of new gliders are so equipped, but we aren't all in for new gliders.
On Monday, 15 May 2023 at 03:08:09 UTC+1, 2G wrote:

Boobie has been posting much derogatory, mostly false, opinions on motorgliders for some time now. Have ANY of you canceled your MG order and switched to a motorless glider because of this?

On the other hand, have ANY of you canceled your motorless glider order and switched to an MG?

Please, I am interested ONLY in serious replies (hint: Boobie, DON'T reply!).

Tom 2G

Sorry, Andy, but it IS soaring-related and relevant. I am with you, however, I wish Boobie would desist with this ongoing false slandering of the MG community.

Tom 2G

And now, Old Bob is complaining about motorglider pilots that take a high launch, even though a towed glider could take an equally high launch.

To summarize, NOBODY has cancelled their MG orders as Boobie recommended, and TWO non-motorized glider pilots are considering the purchase of an MG (Boobie being one of them). This is what I expected (however, I DIDN'T expect Boobie to be actually

looking at MGs). The NUMBER ONE reason pilots buy MGs is because of convenience. I have NEVER met a MG owner who said he bought the glider to save money on tow fees.

For the life of me, I NEVER expected a response to this poll about EXPOSING one's self. This is definitely DSM-5 material.

Tom 2G

If I could be that large, that rugged, and that fast to erect, I'd be tempted to expose myself (the "flaunt it if you got it" philosphy for a good life)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 5:32:45 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:

Herb I think it took you a little longer than me…
I am still looking for an electric solution which is good enough for me.

Ramy
On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 2:21:37 PM UTC-7, Herbert Kilian wrote:

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 4:09:07 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:

To be honest I find OBTP amusing most of the time.
2G not so much. He seem to take OBTP way too seriously, which I think is why OBTP keep trolling him…
To answer 2G poll, as I am aging and may start finding landouts less desiring I am actually getting closer to putting my first order for a motorglider.

What took you so long, Ramy? Get that self-launch motorglider, don't look back. The '29 is a fantastic glider but you can do even better.
Herb

I have a LAK Mini self launch (electric) and almost always self launch, even at Ely. It isn't a super glider but scoots around very well. In 4 years have not needed the motor to get back home and am always aware it will not get me far if used (maybe 30
or 40 miles). No gas engine maintenance issues or warm up/ cool down periods, either. For me it fills the bill.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Somebody must have been impersonating you in 2020:


Ramy
unread,
Jun 29, 2020, 4:21:08 PM
to
Do folks really sell their gliders so that they can pay deposit on a
glider which was not built yet, knowing how common big delays are even
with the most established factories? Why would anyone do that? If you
really must sell your glider to buy another, buy a used glider. So many
great used gliders in like new conditions out there which you can buy instantly. If you really want a brand new glider you never seen before,
than you should be able to afford the financial risk and be able to keep
your glider meanwhile. Otherwise it does not make sense neither
financially nor flying wise.
Personally I think the GP15 sounds great, I will wait until they fly
around for few years and are available for resale.

Ramy






On 5/16/23 8:46 PM, Ramy wrote:

Dave, I never considered nor even mentioned the Jeta.
Maybe a JS3 RES or AS33ME. or FES?

Ramy

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 5:36:24 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:

On 5/16/23 3:09 PM, Ramy wrote:

To be honest I find OBTP amusing most of the time.

You and about three other people.

2G not so much. He seem to take OBTP way too seriously, which I think is why OBTP keep trolling him…

Exactly. His(?) postings aren't about motorgliders, they're just
endless flamebbaiting, to get attention. It's not just Tom, it's Eric
and a few others that constantly take the bait, which keeps him going.

People have learned not to respond to Daryl Kabatoff, you'd think they
would figure out OBTP eventually. The only difference is Daryl actually
makes sense.

To answer 2G poll, as I am aging and may start finding landouts less desiring I am actually getting closer to putting my first order for a motorglider.

Excellent! Can we assume it's going to be the vaunted Jeta you've often
posted about? Get yourself a Honda generator and save the planet! One
more coal-fired glider would probably bring down the grid.

- Dave

P.S. Don't go for the "49 State" Honda, those are banned in the great
state of California!

Ramy

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 6:01:55 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote: >>>> On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 3:56:55 PM UTC-4, robert holliday wrote: >>>>> On Sunday, May 14, 2023 at 9:08:09 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:

Boobie has been posting much derogatory, mostly false, opinions on motorgliders for some time now. Have ANY of you canceled your MG order and switched to a motorless glider because of this?

On the other hand, have ANY of you canceled your motorless glider order and switched to an MG?

Please, I am interested ONLY in serious replies (hint: Boobie, DON'T reply!).

Tom 2G

I used to really enjoy the comaraderie and accepting attitudes of RAS. >>>>> I always felt that if I needed advice that the group would be gentle and >>>>> truly helpful. I now feel alienated from RAS and I am going to discontinue
reading and sometimes posting on this group due to the divisiveness
and negative attitudes of many recent people posting here. Goodbye.

Mr Holliday, apparently some are more easily "triggered' or offended than others. I find most of the repartee here very amusing. However if you want to see some attacks and offensive comments, find my post about getting the FAA involved in

prohibiting the Schweizer type hook on tow planes. I take life with a grain of salt and a root beer float, I suggest you do the same. People are a$$holes most of the time and the rest of the time too.

Walt Connelly
Former tow pilot
Now happy helicopter pilot

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Hmm, the fact I didn’t remember I once mentioned the GP15 when responding to a thread about it doesn’t equal to “often posted about”. I know nothing about this glider beyond what was probably written in that thread from 2020. Personally I am much
more interested in FES or RES so you may have mixed up things. I think it is Eric who often posted about it.
What I find most amusing is that you going through the trouble of trying to prove that I am interested in a certain glider. Maybe I should?

Ramy

On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 1:53:43 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:

Somebody must have been impersonating you in 2020:

Ramy
unread,
Jun 29, 2020, 4:21:08 PM
to
Do folks really sell their gliders so that they can pay deposit on a
glider which was not built yet, knowing how common big delays are even
with the most established factories? Why would anyone do that? If you
really must sell your glider to buy another, buy a used glider. So many great used gliders in like new conditions out there which you can buy instantly. If you really want a brand new glider you never seen before,
than you should be able to afford the financial risk and be able to keep your glider meanwhile. Otherwise it does not make sense neither
financially nor flying wise.
Personally I think the GP15 sounds great, I will wait until they fly
around for few years and are available for resale.

Ramy
On 5/16/23 8:46 PM, Ramy wrote:

Dave, I never considered nor even mentioned the Jeta.
Maybe a JS3 RES or AS33ME. or FES?

Ramy

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 5:36:24 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:

On 5/16/23 3:09 PM, Ramy wrote:

To be honest I find OBTP amusing most of the time.

You and about three other people.

2G not so much. He seem to take OBTP way too seriously, which I think is why OBTP keep trolling him…

Exactly. His(?) postings aren't about motorgliders, they're just
endless flamebbaiting, to get attention. It's not just Tom, it's Eric
and a few others that constantly take the bait, which keeps him going.

People have learned not to respond to Daryl Kabatoff, you'd think they
would figure out OBTP eventually. The only difference is Daryl actually >> makes sense.

To answer 2G poll, as I am aging and may start finding landouts less desiring I am actually getting closer to putting my first order for a motorglider.

Excellent! Can we assume it's going to be the vaunted Jeta you've often >> posted about? Get yourself a Honda generator and save the planet! One
more coal-fired glider would probably bring down the grid.

- Dave

P.S. Don't go for the "49 State" Honda, those are banned in the great
state of California!

Ramy

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 6:01:55 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote: >>>> On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 3:56:55 PM UTC-4, robert holliday wrote: >>>>> On Sunday, May 14, 2023 at 9:08:09 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:

Boobie has been posting much derogatory, mostly false, opinions on motorgliders for some time now. Have ANY of you canceled your MG order and switched to a motorless glider because of this?

On the other hand, have ANY of you canceled your motorless glider order and switched to an MG?

Please, I am interested ONLY in serious replies (hint: Boobie, DON'T reply!).

Tom 2G

I used to really enjoy the comaraderie and accepting attitudes of RAS. >>>>> I always felt that if I needed advice that the group would be gentle and
truly helpful. I now feel alienated from RAS and I am going to discontinue
reading and sometimes posting on this group due to the divisiveness >>>>> and negative attitudes of many recent people posting here. Goodbye. >>>> Mr Holliday, apparently some are more easily "triggered' or offended than others. I find most of the repartee here very amusing. However if you want to see some attacks and offensive comments, find my post about getting the FAA involved in

prohibiting the Schweizer type hook on tow planes. I take life with a grain of salt and a root beer float, I suggest you do the same. People are a$$holes most of the time and the rest of the time too.

Walt Connelly
Former tow pilot
Now happy helicopter pilot

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 7:18:23 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:

Hmm, the fact I didn’t remember I once mentioned the GP15 when responding to a thread about it doesn’t equal to “often posted about”. I know nothing about this glider beyond what was probably written in that thread from 2020. Personally I am

much more interested in FES or RES so you may have mixed up things. I think it is Eric who often posted about it.

What I find most amusing is that you going through the trouble of trying to prove that I am interested in a certain glider. Maybe I should?

Ramy
On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 1:53:43 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:

Somebody must have been impersonating you in 2020:

Ramy
unread,
Jun 29, 2020, 4:21:08 PM
to
Do folks really sell their gliders so that they can pay deposit on a glider which was not built yet, knowing how common big delays are even with the most established factories? Why would anyone do that? If you really must sell your glider to buy another, buy a used glider. So many great used gliders in like new conditions out there which you can buy instantly. If you really want a brand new glider you never seen before, than you should be able to afford the financial risk and be able to keep your glider meanwhile. Otherwise it does not make sense neither financially nor flying wise.
Personally I think the GP15 sounds great, I will wait until they fly around for few years and are available for resale.

Ramy
On 5/16/23 8:46 PM, Ramy wrote:

Dave, I never considered nor even mentioned the Jeta.
Maybe a JS3 RES or AS33ME. or FES?

Ramy

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 5:36:24 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:

On 5/16/23 3:09 PM, Ramy wrote:

To be honest I find OBTP amusing most of the time.

You and about three other people.

2G not so much. He seem to take OBTP way too seriously, which I think is why OBTP keep trolling him…

Exactly. His(?) postings aren't about motorgliders, they're just
endless flamebbaiting, to get attention. It's not just Tom, it's Eric >> and a few others that constantly take the bait, which keeps him going. >>
People have learned not to respond to Daryl Kabatoff, you'd think they >> would figure out OBTP eventually. The only difference is Daryl actually >> makes sense.

To answer 2G poll, as I am aging and may start finding landouts less desiring I am actually getting closer to putting my first order for a motorglider.

Excellent! Can we assume it's going to be the vaunted Jeta you've often >> posted about? Get yourself a Honda generator and save the planet! One >> more coal-fired glider would probably bring down the grid.

- Dave

P.S. Don't go for the "49 State" Honda, those are banned in the great >> state of California!

Ramy

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 6:01:55 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:

On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 3:56:55 PM UTC-4, robert holliday wrote: >>>>> On Sunday, May 14, 2023 at 9:08:09 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:

Boobie has been posting much derogatory, mostly false, opinions on motorgliders for some time now. Have ANY of you canceled your MG order and switched to a motorless glider because of this?

On the other hand, have ANY of you canceled your motorless glider order and switched to an MG?

Please, I am interested ONLY in serious replies (hint: Boobie, DON'T reply!).

Tom 2G

I used to really enjoy the comaraderie and accepting attitudes of RAS.
I always felt that if I needed advice that the group would be gentle and
truly helpful. I now feel alienated from RAS and I am going to discontinue
reading and sometimes posting on this group due to the divisiveness >>>>> and negative attitudes of many recent people posting here. Goodbye. >>>> Mr Holliday, apparently some are more easily "triggered' or offended than others. I find most of the repartee here very amusing. However if you want to see some attacks and offensive comments, find my post about getting the FAA involved in

prohibiting the Schweizer type hook on tow planes. I take life with a grain of salt and a root beer float, I suggest you do the same. People are a$$holes most of the time and the rest of the time too.

Walt Connelly
Former tow pilot
Now happy helicopter pilot

Ramy, they gotcha, OBTP

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 5/23/23 5:18 PM, Ramy wrote:

Hmm, the fact I didn’t remember I once mentioned the GP15 when responding to a thread about it doesn’t equal to “often posted about”.

You didn't just mention it, you were drooling all over it. But I might
have exaggerated a bit with 'often'.

I know nothing about this glider beyond what was probably written in that thread from 2020. Personally I am much more interested in FES or RES so you may have mixed up things. I think it is Eric who often posted about it.

Eric was, and still is, a superfan, although he's somewhat quieter about
it these days. Still not up to the level of Raul, who made two trips to
Europe just so he could touch one. He's gone kinda quiet too.

What I find most amusing is that you going through the trouble of trying to prove that I am interested in a certain glider.

No trouble at all. Just a few words typed into a search engine. It was
much tougher trying to find info on the Clean Sky fire.


Maybe I should?

You absolutely should. Instead of placing an order for something else,
these Jeta's are available off the shelf. There's one sitting in
Arizona that could be yours tomorrow. A bird in the hand is worth two
in the bush, as they say. Scratch that lithium itch today, instead of
five years from now!

-Dave

Ramy

On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 1:53:43 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:

Somebody must have been impersonating you in 2020:


Ramy
unread,
Jun 29, 2020, 4:21:08 PM
to
Do folks really sell their gliders so that they can pay deposit on a
glider which was not built yet, knowing how common big delays are even
with the most established factories? Why would anyone do that? If you
really must sell your glider to buy another, buy a used glider. So many
great used gliders in like new conditions out there which you can buy
instantly. If you really want a brand new glider you never seen before,
than you should be able to afford the financial risk and be able to keep
your glider meanwhile. Otherwise it does not make sense neither
financially nor flying wise.
Personally I think the GP15 sounds great, I will wait until they fly
around for few years and are available for resale.

Ramy
On 5/16/23 8:46 PM, Ramy wrote:

Dave, I never considered nor even mentioned the Jeta.
Maybe a JS3 RES or AS33ME. or FES?

Ramy

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 5:36:24 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:

On 5/16/23 3:09 PM, Ramy wrote:

To be honest I find OBTP amusing most of the time.

You and about three other people.

2G not so much. He seem to take OBTP way too seriously, which I think is why OBTP keep trolling him…

Exactly. His(?) postings aren't about motorgliders, they're just
endless flamebbaiting, to get attention. It's not just Tom, it's Eric
and a few others that constantly take the bait, which keeps him going. >>>>
People have learned not to respond to Daryl Kabatoff, you'd think they >>>> would figure out OBTP eventually. The only difference is Daryl actually >>>> makes sense.

To answer 2G poll, as I am aging and may start finding landouts less desiring I am actually getting closer to putting my first order for a motorglider.

Excellent! Can we assume it's going to be the vaunted Jeta you've often >>>> posted about? Get yourself a Honda generator and save the planet! One
more coal-fired glider would probably bring down the grid.

- Dave

P.S. Don't go for the "49 State" Honda, those are banned in the great
state of California!

Ramy

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 6:01:55 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote: >>>>>> On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 3:56:55 PM UTC-4, robert holliday wrote: >>>>>>> On Sunday, May 14, 2023 at 9:08:09 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:

Boobie has been posting much derogatory, mostly false, opinions on motorgliders for some time now. Have ANY of you canceled your MG order and switched to a motorless glider because of this?

On the other hand, have ANY of you canceled your motorless glider order and switched to an MG?

Please, I am interested ONLY in serious replies (hint: Boobie, DON'T reply!).

Tom 2G

I used to really enjoy the comaraderie and accepting attitudes of RAS. >>>>>>> I always felt that if I needed advice that the group would be gentle and
truly helpful. I now feel alienated from RAS and I am going to discontinue
reading and sometimes posting on this group due to the divisiveness >>>>>>> and negative attitudes of many recent people posting here. Goodbye. >>>>>> Mr Holliday, apparently some are more easily "triggered' or offended than others. I find most of the repartee here very amusing. However if you want to see some attacks and offensive comments, find my post about getting the FAA involved in

prohibiting the Schweizer type hook on tow planes. I take life with a grain of salt and a root beer float, I suggest you do the same. People are a$$holes most of the time and the rest of the time too.

Walt Connelly
Former tow pilot
Now happy helicopter pilot

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

So... What's wrong with it other than the obvious lack of endurance (and
the included random uncommanded cabin heater)?

Dan
5J

On 5/24/23 09:32, kinsell wrote:

Sure.  They're both on the FAA registry with PESZKE S.C. as the mfg.

Number 1 was flown as a factory demonstrator, then got sold to somebody
who flew it for a while in Driggs.  That's the one that Kawa politely declined to fly in the 2018 worlds.

Number 2 got delivered at the 2020 SSA convention, went through multiple owners, and now is with the dealer in AZ.  It's been hanging out on W&W
for quite a while.

On 5/24/23 9:18 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:

Now my curiosity is tweaked.  Has a second GP-15 been delivered to the
US yet?

Dan
5J

On 5/23/23 17:18, Ramy wrote:

Hmm, the fact I didn’t remember I once mentioned the GP15 when
responding to a thread about it doesn’t equal to “often posted
about”. I know nothing about this glider beyond what was probably
written in that thread from 2020. Personally I am much more
interested in FES or RES so you may have mixed up things. I think it
is Eric who often posted about it.
What I find most amusing is that you going through the trouble of
trying to prove that I am interested in a certain glider. Maybe I
should?

Ramy

On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 1:53:43 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:

Somebody must have been impersonating you in 2020:


Ramy
unread,
Jun 29, 2020, 4:21:08 PM
to
Do folks really sell their gliders so that they can pay deposit on a
glider which was not built yet, knowing how common big delays are even >>>> with the most established factories? Why would anyone do that? If you
really must sell your glider to buy another, buy a used glider. So many >>>> great used gliders in like new conditions out there which you can buy
instantly. If you really want a brand new glider you never seen before, >>>> than you should be able to afford the financial risk and be able to
keep
your glider meanwhile. Otherwise it does not make sense neither
financially nor flying wise.
Personally I think the GP15 sounds great, I will wait until they fly
around for few years and are available for resale.

Ramy
On 5/16/23 8:46 PM, Ramy wrote:

Dave, I never considered nor even mentioned the Jeta.
Maybe a JS3 RES or AS33ME. or FES?

Ramy

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 5:36:24 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:

On 5/16/23 3:09 PM, Ramy wrote:

To be honest I find OBTP amusing most of the time.

You and about three other people.

2G not so much. He seem to take OBTP way too seriously, which I
think is why OBTP keep trolling him…

Exactly. His(?) postings aren't about motorgliders, they're just
endless flamebbaiting, to get attention. It's not just Tom, it's Eric >>>>>> and a few others that constantly take the bait, which keeps him
going.

People have learned not to respond to Daryl Kabatoff, you'd think
they
would figure out OBTP eventually. The only difference is Daryl
actually
makes sense.

To answer 2G poll, as I am aging and may start finding landouts
less desiring I am actually getting closer to putting my first
order for a motorglider.

Excellent! Can we assume it's going to be the vaunted Jeta you've
often
posted about? Get yourself a Honda generator and save the planet! One >>>>>> more coal-fired glider would probably bring down the grid.

- Dave

P.S. Don't go for the "49 State" Honda, those are banned in the great >>>>>> state of California!

Ramy

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 6:01:55 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com >>>>>>> wrote:

On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 3:56:55 PM UTC-4, robert holliday wrote: >>>>>>>>> On Sunday, May 14, 2023 at 9:08:09 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:

Boobie has been posting much derogatory, mostly false,
opinions on motorgliders for some time now. Have ANY of you >>>>>>>>>> canceled your MG order and switched to a motorless glider
because of this?

On the other hand, have ANY of you canceled your motorless >>>>>>>>>> glider order and switched to an MG?

Please, I am interested ONLY in serious replies (hint: Boobie, >>>>>>>>>> DON'T reply!).

Tom 2G

I used to really enjoy the comaraderie and accepting attitudes >>>>>>>>> of RAS.
I always felt that if I needed advice that the group would be >>>>>>>>> gentle and
truly helpful. I now feel alienated from RAS and I am going to >>>>>>>>> discontinue
reading and sometimes posting on this group due to the
divisiveness
and negative attitudes of many recent people posting here.
Goodbye.

Mr Holliday, apparently some are more easily "triggered' or
offended than others. I find most of the repartee here very
amusing. However if you want to see some attacks and offensive >>>>>>>> comments, find my post about getting the FAA involved in
prohibiting the Schweizer type hook on tow planes. I take life >>>>>>>> with a grain of salt and a root beer float, I suggest you do the >>>>>>>> same. People are a$$holes most of the time and the rest of the >>>>>>>> time too.

Walt Connelly
Former tow pilot
Now happy helicopter pilot

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Good question. Seems like Eric or Raul or Ramy would be all over that
thing like white on rice. Still showing 0 hours on the airframe, so you
get that new glider smell at a used glider price.


On 5/24/23 9:37 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:

So... What's wrong with it other than the obvious lack of endurance (and
the included random uncommanded cabin heater)?

Dan
5J

On 5/24/23 09:32, kinsell wrote:

Sure.  They're both on the FAA registry with PESZKE S.C. as the mfg.

Number 1 was flown as a factory demonstrator, then got sold to
somebody who flew it for a while in Driggs.  That's the one that Kawa
politely declined to fly in the 2018 worlds.

Number 2 got delivered at the 2020 SSA convention, went through
multiple owners, and now is with the dealer in AZ.  It's been hanging
out on W&W for quite a while.



On 5/24/23 9:18 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:

Now my curiosity is tweaked.  Has a second GP-15 been delivered to
the US yet?

Dan
5J

On 5/23/23 17:18, Ramy wrote:

Hmm, the fact I didn’t remember I once mentioned the GP15 when
responding to a thread about it doesn’t equal to “often posted
about”. I know nothing about this glider beyond what was probably
written in that thread from 2020. Personally I am much more
interested in FES or RES so you may have mixed up things. I think it
is Eric who often posted about it.
What I find most amusing is that you going through the trouble of
trying to prove that I am interested in a certain glider. Maybe I
should?

Ramy

On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 1:53:43 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:

Somebody must have been impersonating you in 2020:


Ramy
unread,
Jun 29, 2020, 4:21:08 PM
to
Do folks really sell their gliders so that they can pay deposit on a >>>>> glider which was not built yet, knowing how common big delays are even >>>>> with the most established factories? Why would anyone do that? If you >>>>> really must sell your glider to buy another, buy a used glider. So
many
great used gliders in like new conditions out there which you can buy >>>>> instantly. If you really want a brand new glider you never seen
before,
than you should be able to afford the financial risk and be able to
keep
your glider meanwhile. Otherwise it does not make sense neither
financially nor flying wise.
Personally I think the GP15 sounds great, I will wait until they fly >>>>> around for few years and are available for resale.

Ramy
On 5/16/23 8:46 PM, Ramy wrote:

Dave, I never considered nor even mentioned the Jeta.
Maybe a JS3 RES or AS33ME. or FES?

Ramy

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 5:36:24 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:

On 5/16/23 3:09 PM, Ramy wrote:

To be honest I find OBTP amusing most of the time.

You and about three other people.

2G not so much. He seem to take OBTP way too seriously, which I >>>>>>>> think is why OBTP keep trolling him…

Exactly. His(?) postings aren't about motorgliders, they're just >>>>>>> endless flamebbaiting, to get attention. It's not just Tom, it's >>>>>>> Eric
and a few others that constantly take the bait, which keeps him
going.

People have learned not to respond to Daryl Kabatoff, you'd think >>>>>>> they
would figure out OBTP eventually. The only difference is Daryl
actually
makes sense.

To answer 2G poll, as I am aging and may start finding landouts >>>>>>>> less desiring I am actually getting closer to putting my first >>>>>>>> order for a motorglider.

Excellent! Can we assume it's going to be the vaunted Jeta you've >>>>>>> often
posted about? Get yourself a Honda generator and save the planet! >>>>>>> One
more coal-fired glider would probably bring down the grid.

- Dave

P.S. Don't go for the "49 State" Honda, those are banned in the
great
state of California!

Ramy

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 6:01:55 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com >>>>>>>> wrote:

On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 3:56:55 PM UTC-4, robert holliday >>>>>>>>> wrote:

On Sunday, May 14, 2023 at 9:08:09 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:

Boobie has been posting much derogatory, mostly false,
opinions on motorgliders for some time now. Have ANY of you >>>>>>>>>>> canceled your MG order and switched to a motorless glider >>>>>>>>>>> because of this?

On the other hand, have ANY of you canceled your motorless >>>>>>>>>>> glider order and switched to an MG?

Please, I am interested ONLY in serious replies (hint:
Boobie, DON'T reply!).

Tom 2G

I used to really enjoy the comaraderie and accepting attitudes >>>>>>>>>> of RAS.
I always felt that if I needed advice that the group would be >>>>>>>>>> gentle and
truly helpful. I now feel alienated from RAS and I am going to >>>>>>>>>> discontinue
reading and sometimes posting on this group due to the
divisiveness
and negative attitudes of many recent people posting here. >>>>>>>>>> Goodbye.

Mr Holliday, apparently some are more easily "triggered' or
offended than others. I find most of the repartee here very
amusing. However if you want to see some attacks and offensive >>>>>>>>> comments, find my post about getting the FAA involved in
prohibiting the Schweizer type hook on tow planes. I take life >>>>>>>>> with a grain of salt and a root beer float, I suggest you do >>>>>>>>> the same. People are a$$holes most of the time and the rest of >>>>>>>>> the time too.

Walt Connelly
Former tow pilot
Now happy helicopter pilot

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Now my curiosity is tweaked. Has a second GP-15 been delivered to the
US yet?

Dan
5J

On 5/23/23 17:18, Ramy wrote:

Hmm, the fact I didn’t remember I once mentioned the GP15 when responding to a thread about it doesn’t equal to “often posted about”. I know nothing about this glider beyond what was probably written in that thread from 2020. Personally I am

much more interested in FES or RES so you may have mixed up things. I think it is Eric who often posted about it.

What I find most amusing is that you going through the trouble of trying to prove that I am interested in a certain glider. Maybe I should?

Ramy

On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 1:53:43 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:

Somebody must have been impersonating you in 2020:


Ramy
unread,
Jun 29, 2020, 4:21:08 PM
to
Do folks really sell their gliders so that they can pay deposit on a
glider which was not built yet, knowing how common big delays are even
with the most established factories? Why would anyone do that? If you
really must sell your glider to buy another, buy a used glider. So many
great used gliders in like new conditions out there which you can buy
instantly. If you really want a brand new glider you never seen before,
than you should be able to afford the financial risk and be able to keep
your glider meanwhile. Otherwise it does not make sense neither
financially nor flying wise.
Personally I think the GP15 sounds great, I will wait until they fly
around for few years and are available for resale.

Ramy
On 5/16/23 8:46 PM, Ramy wrote:

Dave, I never considered nor even mentioned the Jeta.
Maybe a JS3 RES or AS33ME. or FES?

Ramy

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 5:36:24 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:

On 5/16/23 3:09 PM, Ramy wrote:

To be honest I find OBTP amusing most of the time.

You and about three other people.

2G not so much. He seem to take OBTP way too seriously, which I think is why OBTP keep trolling him…

Exactly. His(?) postings aren't about motorgliders, they're just
endless flamebbaiting, to get attention. It's not just Tom, it's Eric
and a few others that constantly take the bait, which keeps him going. >>>>
People have learned not to respond to Daryl Kabatoff, you'd think they >>>> would figure out OBTP eventually. The only difference is Daryl actually >>>> makes sense.

To answer 2G poll, as I am aging and may start finding landouts less desiring I am actually getting closer to putting my first order for a motorglider.

Excellent! Can we assume it's going to be the vaunted Jeta you've often >>>> posted about? Get yourself a Honda generator and save the planet! One
more coal-fired glider would probably bring down the grid.

- Dave

P.S. Don't go for the "49 State" Honda, those are banned in the great
state of California!

Ramy

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 6:01:55 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote: >>>>>> On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 3:56:55 PM UTC-4, robert holliday wrote: >>>>>>> On Sunday, May 14, 2023 at 9:08:09 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:

Boobie has been posting much derogatory, mostly false, opinions on motorgliders for some time now. Have ANY of you canceled your MG order and switched to a motorless glider because of this?

On the other hand, have ANY of you canceled your motorless glider order and switched to an MG?

Please, I am interested ONLY in serious replies (hint: Boobie, DON'T reply!).

Tom 2G

I used to really enjoy the comaraderie and accepting attitudes of RAS. >>>>>>> I always felt that if I needed advice that the group would be gentle and
truly helpful. I now feel alienated from RAS and I am going to discontinue
reading and sometimes posting on this group due to the divisiveness >>>>>>> and negative attitudes of many recent people posting here. Goodbye. >>>>>> Mr Holliday, apparently some are more easily "triggered' or offended than others. I find most of the repartee here very amusing. However if you want to see some attacks and offensive comments, find my post about getting the FAA involved in

prohibiting the Schweizer type hook on tow planes. I take life with a grain of salt and a root beer float, I suggest you do the same. People are a$$holes most of the time and the rest of the time too.

Walt Connelly
Former tow pilot
Now happy helicopter pilot

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Sure. They're both on the FAA registry with PESZKE S.C. as the mfg.

Number 1 was flown as a factory demonstrator, then got sold to somebody
who flew it for a while in Driggs. That's the one that Kawa politely
declined to fly in the 2018 worlds.

Number 2 got delivered at the 2020 SSA convention, went through multiple owners, and now is with the dealer in AZ. It's been hanging out on W&W
for quite a while.



On 5/24/23 9:18 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:

Now my curiosity is tweaked.  Has a second GP-15 been delivered to the
US yet?

Dan
5J

On 5/23/23 17:18, Ramy wrote:

Hmm, the fact I didn’t remember I once mentioned the GP15 when
responding to a thread about it doesn’t equal to “often posted about”. >> I know nothing about this glider beyond what was probably written in
that thread from 2020. Personally I am much more interested in FES or
RES so you may have mixed up things. I think it is Eric who often
posted about it.
What I find most amusing is that you going through the trouble of
trying to prove that I am interested in a certain glider. Maybe I should?

Ramy

On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 1:53:43 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:

Somebody must have been impersonating you in 2020:


Ramy
unread,
Jun 29, 2020, 4:21:08 PM
to
Do folks really sell their gliders so that they can pay deposit on a
glider which was not built yet, knowing how common big delays are even
with the most established factories? Why would anyone do that? If you
really must sell your glider to buy another, buy a used glider. So many
great used gliders in like new conditions out there which you can buy
instantly. If you really want a brand new glider you never seen before,
than you should be able to afford the financial risk and be able to keep >>> your glider meanwhile. Otherwise it does not make sense neither
financially nor flying wise.
Personally I think the GP15 sounds great, I will wait until they fly
around for few years and are available for resale.

Ramy
On 5/16/23 8:46 PM, Ramy wrote:

Dave, I never considered nor even mentioned the Jeta.
Maybe a JS3 RES or AS33ME. or FES?

Ramy

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 5:36:24 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:

On 5/16/23 3:09 PM, Ramy wrote:

To be honest I find OBTP amusing most of the time.

You and about three other people.

2G not so much. He seem to take OBTP way too seriously, which I
think is why OBTP keep trolling him…

Exactly. His(?) postings aren't about motorgliders, they're just
endless flamebbaiting, to get attention. It's not just Tom, it's Eric >>>>> and a few others that constantly take the bait, which keeps him going. >>>>>
People have learned not to respond to Daryl Kabatoff, you'd think they >>>>> would figure out OBTP eventually. The only difference is Daryl
actually
makes sense.

To answer 2G poll, as I am aging and may start finding landouts
less desiring I am actually getting closer to putting my first
order for a motorglider.

Excellent! Can we assume it's going to be the vaunted Jeta you've
often
posted about? Get yourself a Honda generator and save the planet! One >>>>> more coal-fired glider would probably bring down the grid.

- Dave

P.S. Don't go for the "49 State" Honda, those are banned in the great >>>>> state of California!

Ramy

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 6:01:55 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com
wrote:

On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 3:56:55 PM UTC-4, robert holliday wrote: >>>>>>>> On Sunday, May 14, 2023 at 9:08:09 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:

Boobie has been posting much derogatory, mostly false, opinions >>>>>>>>> on motorgliders for some time now. Have ANY of you canceled
your MG order and switched to a motorless glider because of this? >>>>>>>>>
On the other hand, have ANY of you canceled your motorless
glider order and switched to an MG?

Please, I am interested ONLY in serious replies (hint: Boobie, >>>>>>>>> DON'T reply!).

Tom 2G

I used to really enjoy the comaraderie and accepting attitudes >>>>>>>> of RAS.
I always felt that if I needed advice that the group would be
gentle and
truly helpful. I now feel alienated from RAS and I am going to >>>>>>>> discontinue
reading and sometimes posting on this group due to the divisiveness >>>>>>>> and negative attitudes of many recent people posting here. Goodbye. >>>>>>> Mr Holliday, apparently some are more easily "triggered' or

offended than others. I find most of the repartee here very
amusing. However if you want to see some attacks and offensive
comments, find my post about getting the FAA involved in
prohibiting the Schweizer type hook on tow planes. I take life
with a grain of salt and a root beer float, I suggest you do the >>>>>>> same. People are a$$holes most of the time and the rest of the
time too.

Walt Connelly
Former tow pilot
Now happy helicopter pilot

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"so you get that new glider smell at a used glider price."

The new glider smell might have degraded over time, depending on how many prospective buyers have sat in it.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 9:07:30 AM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:

Good question. Seems like Eric or Raul or Ramy would be all over that
thing like white on rice. Still showing 0 hours on the airframe, so you
get that new glider smell at a used glider price.
On 5/24/23 9:37 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:

So... What's wrong with it other than the obvious lack of endurance (and the included random uncommanded cabin heater)?

Dan
5J

On 5/24/23 09:32, kinsell wrote:

Sure. They're both on the FAA registry with PESZKE S.C. as the mfg.

Number 1 was flown as a factory demonstrator, then got sold to
somebody who flew it for a while in Driggs. That's the one that Kawa
politely declined to fly in the 2018 worlds.

Number 2 got delivered at the 2020 SSA convention, went through
multiple owners, and now is with the dealer in AZ. It's been hanging
out on W&W for quite a while.



On 5/24/23 9:18 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:

Now my curiosity is tweaked. Has a second GP-15 been delivered to
the US yet?

Dan
5J

On 5/23/23 17:18, Ramy wrote:

Hmm, the fact I didn’t remember I once mentioned the GP15 when
responding to a thread about it doesn’t equal to “often posted
about”. I know nothing about this glider beyond what was probably >>>> written in that thread from 2020. Personally I am much more
interested in FES or RES so you may have mixed up things. I think it >>>> is Eric who often posted about it.
What I find most amusing is that you going through the trouble of
trying to prove that I am interested in a certain glider. Maybe I
should?

Ramy

On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 1:53:43 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:

Somebody must have been impersonating you in 2020:


Ramy
unread,
Jun 29, 2020, 4:21:08 PM
to
Do folks really sell their gliders so that they can pay deposit on a >>>>> glider which was not built yet, knowing how common big delays are even >>>>> with the most established factories? Why would anyone do that? If you >>>>> really must sell your glider to buy another, buy a used glider. So >>>>> many
great used gliders in like new conditions out there which you can buy >>>>> instantly. If you really want a brand new glider you never seen
before,
than you should be able to afford the financial risk and be able to >>>>> keep
your glider meanwhile. Otherwise it does not make sense neither
financially nor flying wise.
Personally I think the GP15 sounds great, I will wait until they fly >>>>> around for few years and are available for resale.

Ramy
On 5/16/23 8:46 PM, Ramy wrote:

Dave, I never considered nor even mentioned the Jeta.
Maybe a JS3 RES or AS33ME. or FES?

Ramy

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 5:36:24 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote: >>>>>>> On 5/16/23 3:09 PM, Ramy wrote:

To be honest I find OBTP amusing most of the time.

You and about three other people.

2G not so much. He seem to take OBTP way too seriously, which I >>>>>>>> think is why OBTP keep trolling him…

Exactly. His(?) postings aren't about motorgliders, they're just >>>>>>> endless flamebbaiting, to get attention. It's not just Tom, it's >>>>>>> Eric
and a few others that constantly take the bait, which keeps him >>>>>>> going.

People have learned not to respond to Daryl Kabatoff, you'd think >>>>>>> they
would figure out OBTP eventually. The only difference is Daryl >>>>>>> actually
makes sense.

To answer 2G poll, as I am aging and may start finding landouts >>>>>>>> less desiring I am actually getting closer to putting my first >>>>>>>> order for a motorglider.

Excellent! Can we assume it's going to be the vaunted Jeta you've >>>>>>> often
posted about? Get yourself a Honda generator and save the planet! >>>>>>> One
more coal-fired glider would probably bring down the grid.

- Dave

P.S. Don't go for the "49 State" Honda, those are banned in the >>>>>>> great
state of California!

Ramy

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 6:01:55 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com >>>>>>>> wrote:

On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 3:56:55 PM UTC-4, robert holliday >>>>>>>>> wrote:

On Sunday, May 14, 2023 at 9:08:09 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Boobie has been posting much derogatory, mostly false, >>>>>>>>>>> opinions on motorgliders for some time now. Have ANY of you >>>>>>>>>>> canceled your MG order and switched to a motorless glider >>>>>>>>>>> because of this?

On the other hand, have ANY of you canceled your motorless >>>>>>>>>>> glider order and switched to an MG?

Please, I am interested ONLY in serious replies (hint: >>>>>>>>>>> Boobie, DON'T reply!).

Tom 2G

I used to really enjoy the comaraderie and accepting attitudes >>>>>>>>>> of RAS.
I always felt that if I needed advice that the group would be >>>>>>>>>> gentle and
truly helpful. I now feel alienated from RAS and I am going to >>>>>>>>>> discontinue
reading and sometimes posting on this group due to the
divisiveness
and negative attitudes of many recent people posting here. >>>>>>>>>> Goodbye.

Mr Holliday, apparently some are more easily "triggered' or >>>>>>>>> offended than others. I find most of the repartee here very >>>>>>>>> amusing. However if you want to see some attacks and offensive >>>>>>>>> comments, find my post about getting the FAA involved in
prohibiting the Schweizer type hook on tow planes. I take life >>>>>>>>> with a grain of salt and a root beer float, I suggest you do >>>>>>>>> the same. People are a$$holes most of the time and the rest of >>>>>>>>> the time too.

Walt Connelly
Former tow pilot
Now happy helicopter pilot

Dave, I will say this one last time. I am not known for purchasing uncommon gliders. It is either Schleicher or JS3 for me. In fact I never owned nor even seriously considered any motorglider until this year, I still consider myself purist. Electric self
launcher is currently the only type of motorglider I would consider, as long as it is a common glider such as schleicher or JS, Maybe Ventus.
If they will be proven to have higher risk of fire than other propulsion, I will probably continue flying pure gliders. So far all motorglider fires I know of were gas or jet engines.

Ramy

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. So far all motorglider fires I know of were gas or jet engines.

Ramy

Considering the number of jet gliders currently flying, please enumerate the occurrences of fires. I am only aware of one, and that was the homebuilt ASH-25.

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On 5/24/23 4:13 PM, Ramy wrote:

Dave, I will say this one last time. I am not known for purchasing uncommon gliders. It is either Schleicher or JS3 for me. In fact I never owned nor even seriously considered any motorglider until this year, I still consider myself purist.

Just going by what you posted in 2020, you did get swept up in the Jeta
hype. It's fine to change your mind.


Electric self launcher is currently the only type of motorglider I
would consider, as long as it is a common glider such as schleicher or
JS, Maybe Ventus.

If they will be proven to have higher risk of fire than other propulsion, I will probably continue flying pure gliders. So far all motorglider fires I know of were gas or jet engines.

Ramy

Ummm, you're not aware of the FES fires that occurred early in the
program? There were three or four of those, causing a recall of all
batteries, and other design changes for better fire prevention and
detection.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/59c8f175e5274a49c07f4704/AAIB_S3-2017_G-GSGS.pdf

Then there was the Taurus Electro that burned and broke up in New Zealand.

Antares had numerous smaller fires, generally in circuitry in the motor
drive.

If you believe electric motorgliders are immune from fire, probably
should stick with conventional gliders.

Dave

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Mark, yes, that’s the only jet fire I am aware.

Ramy

On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 7:36:16 PM UTC-7, Mark Mocho wrote:

. So far all motorglider fires I know of were gas or jet engines.

Ramy

Considering the number of jet gliders currently flying, please enumerate the occurrences of fires. I am only aware of one, and that was the homebuilt ASH-25.

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I believe the Taurus is the only electric fire in the air, the rest happened on the ground, some outside the glider.
At this point I think the risk of fire is similar in all motorgliders.

Ramy

On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 8:32:01 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:

On 5/24/23 4:13 PM, Ramy wrote:

Dave, I will say this one last time. I am not known for purchasing uncommon gliders. It is either Schleicher or JS3 for me. In fact I never owned nor even seriously considered any motorglider until this year, I still consider myself purist.

Just going by what you posted in 2020, you did get swept up in the Jeta hype. It's fine to change your mind.
Electric self launcher is currently the only type of motorglider I
would consider, as long as it is a common glider such as schleicher or
JS, Maybe Ventus.

If they will be proven to have higher risk of fire than other propulsion, I will probably continue flying pure gliders. So far all motorglider fires I know of were gas or jet engines.

Ramy

Ummm, you're not aware of the FES fires that occurred early in the
program? There were three or four of those, causing a recall of all batteries, and other design changes for better fire prevention and detection.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/59c8f175e5274a49c07f4704/AAIB_S3-2017_G-GSGS.pdf

Then there was the Taurus Electro that burned and broke up in New Zealand.

Antares had numerous smaller fires, generally in circuitry in the motor drive.

If you believe electric motorgliders are immune from fire, probably
should stick with conventional gliders.

Dave

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 5/21/23 12:07 PM, Lynn Wyman wrote:

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 5:32:45 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:

Herb I think it took you a little longer than me…
I am still looking for an electric solution which is good enough for me.

Ramy
On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 2:21:37 PM UTC-7, Herbert Kilian wrote:

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 4:09:07 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:

To be honest I find OBTP amusing most of the time.
2G not so much. He seem to take OBTP way too seriously, which I think is why OBTP keep trolling him…
To answer 2G poll, as I am aging and may start finding landouts less desiring I am actually getting closer to putting my first order for a motorglider.

What took you so long, Ramy? Get that self-launch motorglider, don't look back. The '29 is a fantastic glider but you can do even better.
Herb

I have a LAK Mini self launch (electric) and almost always self launch, even at Ely. It isn't a super glider but scoots around very well. In 4 years have not needed the motor to get back home and am always aware it will not get me far if used (maybe 30

or 40 miles). No gas engine maintenance issues or warm up/ cool down periods, either. For me it fills the bill.

Just for grins, have you ever tried an 8000 ft launch? I assume they
don't allow ballast for any selflaunch?

Just curious what would happen first, batteries depleted, motor
overheat, inverter overheat, or battery overheat?

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On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 8:45:59 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:

I believe the Taurus is the only electric fire in the air, the rest happened on the ground, some outside the glider.
At this point I think the risk of fire is similar in all motorgliders.

Ramy
On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 8:32:01 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:

On 5/24/23 4:13 PM, Ramy wrote:

Dave, I will say this one last time. I am not known for purchasing uncommon gliders. It is either Schleicher or JS3 for me. In fact I never owned nor even seriously considered any motorglider until this year, I still consider myself purist.

Just going by what you posted in 2020, you did get swept up in the Jeta hype. It's fine to change your mind.
Electric self launcher is currently the only type of motorglider I
would consider, as long as it is a common glider such as schleicher or
JS, Maybe Ventus.

If they will be proven to have higher risk of fire than other propulsion, I will probably continue flying pure gliders. So far all motorglider fires I know of were gas or jet engines.

Ramy

Ummm, you're not aware of the FES fires that occurred early in the program? There were three or four of those, causing a recall of all batteries, and other design changes for better fire prevention and detection.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/59c8f175e5274a49c07f4704/AAIB_S3-2017_G-GSGS.pdf

Then there was the Taurus Electro that burned and broke up in New Zealand.

Antares had numerous smaller fires, generally in circuitry in the motor drive.

If you believe electric motorgliders are immune from fire, probably
should stick with conventional gliders.

Dave

Statistically speaking, the number of fires in electric motorgliders is off the charts when compared to cars. EV cars have a rate of 25 per 100,000, whereas EV gliders are about 1 in 100, which is 40 times higher. Whether it occurs in flight or not is
irrelevant. Hopefully, manufacturers have learned from these events and have incorporated design changes to mitigate catastrophic outcomes, but only time will tell.

Tom 2G

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So far all motorglider fires I know of were gas or jet engines.

Careful there. Someone on the Schleicher motorglider group once claimed
there had never been a fire on a Schleicher. I brought up a fire where
a bearing failure destroyed the prop drive belt and made a real mess.
It was a well-known failure. He accused me of "malfeasance". What a
JA! What was his name, Thumper? Dumper? Something like that.

Considering the number of jet gliders currently flying, please enumerate the occurrences of fires. I am only aware of one, and that was the homebuilt ASH-25.

The number of self-launch jets is quite small. They guzzle kerosene
faster than Pelosi can knock back martinis, and you need to do insider
trading to pay for them.

The fact is, there are no great solutions for self-launchers, if there
were, we'd all be using them. Electrics are certainly no magic bullet,
they've got their own problems.

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In a word: Stemme.

Dan
5J

On 5/26/23 08:05, kinsell wrote:

The fact is, there are no great solutions for self-launchers

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And you edited out the second half of the sentence:

if there were, we'd all be using them.

If they're so great, why aren't people flocking to them? Maybe when the
Elfin comes out . . .

JK

If I could get similar performance in 15 meters as what I get in 18, and
still self launch, that would be very attractive. That's why so many
people thought Jeta was great. Fortunately I never considered pulling
out my checkbook. Going to a big Stemme would be of no interest to me.
If you're happy, that's great.

- Dave



On 5/26/23 12:15 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:

In a word:  Stemme.

Dan
5J

On 5/26/23 08:05, kinsell wrote:

The fact is, there are no great solutions for self-launchers

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Sure would hate to land one in a field. I know they've got a good
motor, but everything fails sooner or later. Some Stemme's fail sooner
than later.



On 5/26/23 12:15 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:

In a word:  Stemme.

Dan
5J

On 5/26/23 08:05, kinsell wrote:

The fact is, there are no great solutions for self-launchers

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That's why I always keep a paved runway within reach.

Dan
5J

On 5/26/23 13:29, kinsell wrote:

Sure would hate to land one in a field.  I know they've got a good
motor, but everything fails sooner or later.  Some Stemme's fail sooner
than later.

On 5/26/23 12:15 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:

In a word:  Stemme.

Dan
5J

On 5/26/23 08:05, kinsell wrote:

The fact is, there are no great solutions for self-launchers

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 1:04:04 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:

And you edited out the second half of the sentence:

if there were, we'd all be using them.

If they're so great, why aren't people flocking to them? Maybe when the Elfin comes out . . .

JK

If I could get similar performance in 15 meters as what I get in 18, and still self launch, that would be very attractive. That's why so many
people thought Jeta was great. Fortunately I never considered pulling
out my checkbook. Going to a big Stemme would be of no interest to me.
If you're happy, that's great.

- Dave
On 5/26/23 12:15 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:

In a word: Stemme.

Dan
5J

On 5/26/23 08:05, kinsell wrote:

The fact is, there are no great solutions for self-launchers

I'm with Dave on this one. The Stemme is an amazing compromise, but it misses "great" because it's large, heavy, complex to operate, maintenance-intensive, and expensive.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 7:32:24 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:

On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 8:45:59 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:

I believe the Taurus is the only electric fire in the air, the rest happened on the ground, some outside the glider.
At this point I think the risk of fire is similar in all motorgliders.

Ramy
On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 8:32:01 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:

On 5/24/23 4:13 PM, Ramy wrote:

Dave, I will say this one last time. I am not known for purchasing uncommon gliders. It is either Schleicher or JS3 for me. In fact I never owned nor even seriously considered any motorglider until this year, I still consider myself purist.

Just going by what you posted in 2020, you did get swept up in the Jeta hype. It's fine to change your mind.
Electric self launcher is currently the only type of motorglider I
would consider, as long as it is a common glider such as schleicher or JS, Maybe Ventus.

If they will be proven to have higher risk of fire than other propulsion, I will probably continue flying pure gliders. So far all motorglider fires I know of were gas or jet engines.

Ramy

Ummm, you're not aware of the FES fires that occurred early in the program? There were three or four of those, causing a recall of all batteries, and other design changes for better fire prevention and detection.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/59c8f175e5274a49c07f4704/AAIB_S3-2017_G-GSGS.pdf

Then there was the Taurus Electro that burned and broke up in New Zealand.

Antares had numerous smaller fires, generally in circuitry in the motor drive.

If you believe electric motorgliders are immune from fire, probably should stick with conventional gliders.

Dave

Statistically speaking, the number of fires in electric motorgliders is off the charts when compared to cars. EV cars have a rate of 25 per 100,000, whereas EV gliders are about 1 in 100, which is 40 times higher. Whether it occurs in flight or not is

irrelevant. Hopefully, manufacturers have learned from these events and have incorporated design changes to mitigate catastrophic outcomes, but only time will tell.

Tom 2G

I suggest comparing EV car and EV glider fires rates tells you nothing useful, as the propulsion systems are dramatically different designs to fit their dramatically different purposes and operations. Fatality rates for cars are very much lower than the
same number for gliders. Should we also hope "manufacturers have learned from these events and have incorporated design changes to mitigate catastrophic outcomes, but only time will tell." Or should we just quit comparing these two very different devices
with very different purposes?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Monday, May 29, 2023 at 5:27:24 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 7:32:24 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:

On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 8:45:59 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:

I believe the Taurus is the only electric fire in the air, the rest happened on the ground, some outside the glider.
At this point I think the risk of fire is similar in all motorgliders.

Ramy
On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 8:32:01 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:

On 5/24/23 4:13 PM, Ramy wrote:

Dave, I will say this one last time. I am not known for purchasing uncommon gliders. It is either Schleicher or JS3 for me. In fact I never owned nor even seriously considered any motorglider until this year, I still consider myself purist.

Just going by what you posted in 2020, you did get swept up in the Jeta
hype. It's fine to change your mind.
Electric self launcher is currently the only type of motorglider I would consider, as long as it is a common glider such as schleicher or JS, Maybe Ventus.

If they will be proven to have higher risk of fire than other propulsion, I will probably continue flying pure gliders. So far all motorglider fires I know of were gas or jet engines.

Ramy

Ummm, you're not aware of the FES fires that occurred early in the program? There were three or four of those, causing a recall of all batteries, and other design changes for better fire prevention and detection.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/59c8f175e5274a49c07f4704/AAIB_S3-2017_G-GSGS.pdf

Then there was the Taurus Electro that burned and broke up in New Zealand.

Antares had numerous smaller fires, generally in circuitry in the motor
drive.

If you believe electric motorgliders are immune from fire, probably should stick with conventional gliders.

Dave

Statistically speaking, the number of fires in electric motorgliders is off the charts when compared to cars. EV cars have a rate of 25 per 100,000, whereas EV gliders are about 1 in 100, which is 40 times higher. Whether it occurs in flight or not

is irrelevant. Hopefully, manufacturers have learned from these events and have incorporated design changes to mitigate catastrophic outcomes, but only time will tell.

Tom 2G

I suggest comparing EV car and EV glider fires rates tells you nothing useful, as the propulsion systems are dramatically different designs to fit their dramatically different purposes and operations. Fatality rates for cars are very much lower than

the same number for gliders. Should we also hope "manufacturers have learned from these events and have incorporated design changes to mitigate catastrophic outcomes, but only time will tell." Or should we just quit comparing these two very different
devices with very different purposes?

You certainly can't use EV car fire statistics to "prove" that EV gliders are safe.

Tom 2G

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On Monday, May 29, 2023 at 7:57:11 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:

On Monday, May 29, 2023 at 5:27:24 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:

I suggest comparing EV car and EV glider fires rates tells you nothing useful, as the propulsion systems are dramatically different designs to fit their dramatically different purposes and operations. Fatality rates for cars are very much lower than

the same number for gliders. Should we also hope "manufacturers have learned from these events and have incorporated design changes to mitigate catastrophic outcomes, but only time will tell." Or should we just quit comparing these two very different
devices with very different purposes?

You certainly can't use EV car fire statistics to "prove" that EV gliders are safe.

Tom 2G

That is implied in my suggestion we stop comparing ev cars and ev gliders, so we agree on that. I don't think we can even use your "1 in 100" statistics to prove anything, because the technology is changing, and the past does not predict the future in
that case.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 5/29/23 6:34 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 1:04:04 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:

And you edited out the second half of the sentence:

if there were, we'd all be using them.

If they're so great, why aren't people flocking to them? Maybe when the
Elfin comes out . . .

JK

If I could get similar performance in 15 meters as what I get in 18, and
still self launch, that would be very attractive. That's why so many
people thought Jeta was great. Fortunately I never considered pulling
out my checkbook. Going to a big Stemme would be of no interest to me.
If you're happy, that's great.

- Dave
On 5/26/23 12:15 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:

In a word: Stemme.

Dan
5J

On 5/26/23 08:05, kinsell wrote:

The fact is, there are no great solutions for self-launchers

I'm with Dave on this one. The Stemme is an amazing compromise, but it misses "great" because it's large, heavy, complex to operate, maintenance-intensive, and expensive.

The Stemme makes a very good TMG, if that's what you're after. It's not
for me or you, but I'm not going to rant and rave endlessly about how I
don't like TMG's.

The truth is, a Stemme comes a lot closer to meeting Ramy's requirements
than an FES does. Ability to self-launch 8K feet, and still have a self-retrieve capability while doing big distance flights, with high
speed capability and really good glide ratio. The only box it doesn't
check is electric, which he seems to be hung up on. That 30X energy
density difference between gas and electricity is hard to ignore.

-Dave

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Dave, a Stemme meets my requirement as much as a semi-trailer meets my requirement for a tow vehicle. You seem to really know my flying style and what I am looking for.

Ramy

On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 8:15:23 AM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:

On 5/29/23 6:34 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 1:04:04 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:

And you edited out the second half of the sentence:

if there were, we'd all be using them.

If they're so great, why aren't people flocking to them? Maybe when the >> Elfin comes out . . .

JK

If I could get similar performance in 15 meters as what I get in 18, and >> still self launch, that would be very attractive. That's why so many
people thought Jeta was great. Fortunately I never considered pulling
out my checkbook. Going to a big Stemme would be of no interest to me.
If you're happy, that's great.

- Dave
On 5/26/23 12:15 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:

In a word: Stemme.

Dan
5J

On 5/26/23 08:05, kinsell wrote:

The fact is, there are no great solutions for self-launchers

I'm with Dave on this one. The Stemme is an amazing compromise, but it misses "great" because it's large, heavy, complex to operate, maintenance-intensive, and expensive.

The Stemme makes a very good TMG, if that's what you're after. It's not
for me or you, but I'm not going to rant and rave endlessly about how I don't like TMG's.

The truth is, a Stemme comes a lot closer to meeting Ramy's requirements than an FES does. Ability to self-launch 8K feet, and still have a self-retrieve capability while doing big distance flights, with high
speed capability and really good glide ratio. The only box it doesn't
check is electric, which he seems to be hung up on. That 30X energy
density difference between gas and electricity is hard to ignore.

-Dave

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 11:37:41 AM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:

Dave, a Stemme meets my requirement as much as a semi-trailer meets my requirement for a tow vehicle. You seem to really know my flying style and what I am looking for.

Ramy
On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 8:15:23 AM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:

On 5/29/23 6:34 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 1:04:04 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:

And you edited out the second half of the sentence:

if there were, we'd all be using them.

If they're so great, why aren't people flocking to them? Maybe when the >> Elfin comes out . . .

JK

If I could get similar performance in 15 meters as what I get in 18, and
still self launch, that would be very attractive. That's why so many
people thought Jeta was great. Fortunately I never considered pulling >> out my checkbook. Going to a big Stemme would be of no interest to me. >> If you're happy, that's great.

- Dave
On 5/26/23 12:15 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:

In a word: Stemme.

Dan
5J

On 5/26/23 08:05, kinsell wrote:

The fact is, there are no great solutions for self-launchers

I'm with Dave on this one. The Stemme is an amazing compromise, but it misses "great" because it's large, heavy, complex to operate, maintenance-intensive, and expensive.

The Stemme makes a very good TMG, if that's what you're after. It's not for me or you, but I'm not going to rant and rave endlessly about how I don't like TMG's.

The truth is, a Stemme comes a lot closer to meeting Ramy's requirements than an FES does. Ability to self-launch 8K feet, and still have a self-retrieve capability while doing big distance flights, with high
speed capability and really good glide ratio. The only box it doesn't check is electric, which he seems to be hung up on. That 30X energy density difference between gas and electricity is hard to ignore.

-Dave

If Ramy buys a Stemme I will dress like a Drag Queen and have Virelli paint my picture for a cover of Soaring ! OBTP

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On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 12:40:38 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 11:37:41 AM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:

Dave, a Stemme meets my requirement as much as a semi-trailer meets my requirement for a tow vehicle. You seem to really know my flying style and what I am looking for.

Ramy

The Stemme makes a very good TMG, if that's what you're after. It's not for me or you, but I'm not going to rant and rave endlessly about how I don't like TMG's.

The truth is, a Stemme comes a lot closer to meeting Ramy's requirements than an FES does. Ability to self-launch 8K feet, and still have a self-retrieve capability while doing big distance flights, with high speed capability and really good glide ratio. The only box it doesn't check is electric, which he seems to be hung up on. That 30X energy density difference between gas and electricity is hard to ignore.

-Dave

If Ramy buys a Stemme I will dress like a Drag Queen and have Virelli paint my picture for a cover of Soaring ! OBTP

"Drag Queen" would be a great name for a towplane.
Eric

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 4:32:58 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 12:40:38 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 11:37:41 AM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:

Dave, a Stemme meets my requirement as much as a semi-trailer meets my requirement for a tow vehicle. You seem to really know my flying style and what I am looking for.

Ramy

The Stemme makes a very good TMG, if that's what you're after. It's not
for me or you, but I'm not going to rant and rave endlessly about how I
don't like TMG's.

The truth is, a Stemme comes a lot closer to meeting Ramy's requirements
than an FES does. Ability to self-launch 8K feet, and still have a self-retrieve capability while doing big distance flights, with high speed capability and really good glide ratio. The only box it doesn't check is electric, which he seems to be hung up on. That 30X energy density difference between gas and electricity is hard to ignore.

-Dave

If Ramy buys a Stemme I will dress like a Drag Queen and have Virelli paint my picture for a cover of Soaring ! OBTP

"Drag Queen" would be a great name for a towplane.
Eric

Eric, it would be a better name for a motorglider since it is not a glider and not an airplane, kind of a TRANNY! OBTP

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

It seems that I lot of Europeans use the Stemme as a TMG, not so much
here. The only time I cruise on the engine is if I'm repositioning the
glider as I did a couple of years ago when I spent a week in Rifle, CO,

Now some Europeans use the Stemme as a glider and have done such things
as fly from France, over Corsica, to Italy, and on to Greece. As a
glider. That would be quite a retrieve for a purist glider!

Dan
5J

On 5/30/23 09:15, kinsell wrote:

On 5/29/23 6:34 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 1:04:04 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:

And you edited out the second half of the sentence:

if there were, we'd all be using them.

If they're so great, why aren't people flocking to them? Maybe when the
Elfin comes out . . .

JK

If I could get similar performance in 15 meters as what I get in 18, and >>> still self launch, that would be very attractive. That's why so many
people thought Jeta was great. Fortunately I never considered pulling
out my checkbook. Going to a big Stemme would be of no interest to me.
If you're happy, that's great.

- Dave
On 5/26/23 12:15 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:

In a word:  Stemme.

Dan
5J

On 5/26/23 08:05, kinsell wrote:

The fact is, there are no great solutions for self-launchers

I'm with Dave on this one. The Stemme is an amazing compromise, but it
misses "great" because it's large, heavy, complex to operate,
maintenance-intensive, and expensive.

The Stemme makes a very good TMG, if that's what you're after.  It's not
for me or you, but I'm not going to rant and rave endlessly about how I
don't like TMG's.

The truth is, a Stemme comes a lot closer to meeting Ramy's requirements
than an FES does.  Ability to self-launch 8K feet, and still have a self-retrieve capability while doing big distance flights, with high
speed capability and really good glide ratio.  The only box it doesn't
check is electric, which he seems to be hung up on.  That 30X energy
density difference between gas and electricity is hard to ignore.

-Dave

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 7:49:33 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:

It seems that I lot of Europeans use the Stemme as a TMG, not so much
here. The only time I cruise on the engine is if I'm repositioning the glider as I did a couple of years ago when I spent a week in Rifle, CO,

Now some Europeans use the Stemme as a glider and have done such things
as fly from France, over Corsica, to Italy, and on to Greece. As a
glider. That would be quite a retrieve for a purist glider!

Dan
5J
On 5/30/23 09:15, kinsell wrote:

On 5/29/23 6:34 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 1:04:04 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:

And you edited out the second half of the sentence:

if there were, we'd all be using them.

If they're so great, why aren't people flocking to them? Maybe when the >>> Elfin comes out . . .

JK

If I could get similar performance in 15 meters as what I get in 18, and >>> still self launch, that would be very attractive. That's why so many
people thought Jeta was great. Fortunately I never considered pulling >>> out my checkbook. Going to a big Stemme would be of no interest to me. >>> If you're happy, that's great.

- Dave
On 5/26/23 12:15 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:

In a word: Stemme.

Dan
5J

On 5/26/23 08:05, kinsell wrote:

The fact is, there are no great solutions for self-launchers

I'm with Dave on this one. The Stemme is an amazing compromise, but it
misses "great" because it's large, heavy, complex to operate,
maintenance-intensive, and expensive.

The Stemme makes a very good TMG, if that's what you're after. It's not for me or you, but I'm not going to rant and rave endlessly about how I don't like TMG's.

The truth is, a Stemme comes a lot closer to meeting Ramy's requirements than an FES does. Ability to self-launch 8K feet, and still have a self-retrieve capability while doing big distance flights, with high
speed capability and really good glide ratio. The only box it doesn't check is electric, which he seems to be hung up on. That 30X energy density difference between gas and electricity is hard to ignore.

-Dave

After yesterdays flights on OLC the guys in the motorgliders need to reconsider their purchases and trade those dogs in on a Lowly 27 and get a few tips from Jared. Very nice flight out of Ohio and take a look at his real triangle, not some FAI
definition of what I call an abbreviated triangle. Yep, Jared didn't have those cruising altitudes like the dudes in the motorgliders out West, yet did it in rather Purist style. OBTP

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, May 31, 2023 at 12:46:04 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 7:49:33 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:

It seems that I lot of Europeans use the Stemme as a TMG, not so much here. The only time I cruise on the engine is if I'm repositioning the glider as I did a couple of years ago when I spent a week in Rifle, CO,

Now some Europeans use the Stemme as a glider and have done such things
as fly from France, over Corsica, to Italy, and on to Greece. As a
glider. That would be quite a retrieve for a purist glider!

Dan
5J
On 5/30/23 09:15, kinsell wrote:

On 5/29/23 6:34 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 1:04:04 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:

And you edited out the second half of the sentence:

if there were, we'd all be using them.

If they're so great, why aren't people flocking to them? Maybe when the
Elfin comes out . . .

JK

If I could get similar performance in 15 meters as what I get in 18, and
still self launch, that would be very attractive. That's why so many >>> people thought Jeta was great. Fortunately I never considered pulling >>> out my checkbook. Going to a big Stemme would be of no interest to me. >>> If you're happy, that's great.

- Dave
On 5/26/23 12:15 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:

In a word: Stemme.

Dan
5J

On 5/26/23 08:05, kinsell wrote:

The fact is, there are no great solutions for self-launchers

I'm with Dave on this one. The Stemme is an amazing compromise, but it >> misses "great" because it's large, heavy, complex to operate,
maintenance-intensive, and expensive.

The Stemme makes a very good TMG, if that's what you're after. It's not for me or you, but I'm not going to rant and rave endlessly about how I don't like TMG's.

The truth is, a Stemme comes a lot closer to meeting Ramy's requirements than an FES does. Ability to self-launch 8K feet, and still have a self-retrieve capability while doing big distance flights, with high speed capability and really good glide ratio. The only box it doesn't check is electric, which he seems to be hung up on. That 30X energy density difference between gas and electricity is hard to ignore.

-Dave

After yesterdays flights on OLC the guys in the motorgliders need to reconsider their purchases and trade those dogs in on a Lowly 27 and get a few tips from Jared. Very nice flight out of Ohio and take a look at his real triangle, not some FAI

definition of what I call an abbreviated triangle. Yep, Jared didn't have those cruising altitudes like the dudes in the motorgliders out West, yet did it in rather Purist style. OBTP

Yeah, and join you down in the swamp trying to fight alligators with a pop gun.

Tom 2G

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thursday, June 1, 2023 at 1:02:10 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:

On Wednesday, May 31, 2023 at 12:46:04 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 7:49:33 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:

It seems that I lot of Europeans use the Stemme as a TMG, not so much here. The only time I cruise on the engine is if I'm repositioning the glider as I did a couple of years ago when I spent a week in Rifle, CO,

Now some Europeans use the Stemme as a glider and have done such things as fly from France, over Corsica, to Italy, and on to Greece. As a glider. That would be quite a retrieve for a purist glider!

Dan
5J
On 5/30/23 09:15, kinsell wrote:

On 5/29/23 6:34 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 1:04:04 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:

And you edited out the second half of the sentence:

if there were, we'd all be using them.

If they're so great, why aren't people flocking to them? Maybe when the
Elfin comes out . . .

JK

If I could get similar performance in 15 meters as what I get in 18, and
still self launch, that would be very attractive. That's why so many >>> people thought Jeta was great. Fortunately I never considered pulling
out my checkbook. Going to a big Stemme would be of no interest to me.
If you're happy, that's great.

- Dave
On 5/26/23 12:15 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:

In a word: Stemme.

Dan
5J

On 5/26/23 08:05, kinsell wrote:

The fact is, there are no great solutions for self-launchers

I'm with Dave on this one. The Stemme is an amazing compromise, but it
misses "great" because it's large, heavy, complex to operate,
maintenance-intensive, and expensive.

The Stemme makes a very good TMG, if that's what you're after. It's not
for me or you, but I'm not going to rant and rave endlessly about how I
don't like TMG's.

The truth is, a Stemme comes a lot closer to meeting Ramy's requirements
than an FES does. Ability to self-launch 8K feet, and still have a self-retrieve capability while doing big distance flights, with high speed capability and really good glide ratio. The only box it doesn't check is electric, which he seems to be hung up on. That 30X energy density difference between gas and electricity is hard to ignore.

-Dave

After yesterdays flights on OLC the guys in the motorgliders need to reconsider their purchases and trade those dogs in on a Lowly 27 and get a few tips from Jared. Very nice flight out of Ohio and take a look at his real triangle, not some FAI

definition of what I call an abbreviated triangle. Yep, Jared didn't have those cruising altitudes like the dudes in the motorgliders out West, yet did it in rather Purist style. OBTP

Yeah, and join you down in the swamp trying to fight alligators with a pop gun.

Tom 2G

Tommy The Tyrant, even an alligator would avoid you. OBTP

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thursday, June 1, 2023 at 1:27:17 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, June 1, 2023 at 1:02:10 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:

On Wednesday, May 31, 2023 at 12:46:04 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 7:49:33 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:

It seems that I lot of Europeans use the Stemme as a TMG, not so much here. The only time I cruise on the engine is if I'm repositioning the glider as I did a couple of years ago when I spent a week in Rifle, CO,

Now some Europeans use the Stemme as a glider and have done such things
as fly from France, over Corsica, to Italy, and on to Greece. As a glider. That would be quite a retrieve for a purist glider!

Dan
5J
On 5/30/23 09:15, kinsell wrote:

On 5/29/23 6:34 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 1:04:04 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:

And you edited out the second half of the sentence:

if there were, we'd all be using them.

If they're so great, why aren't people flocking to them? Maybe when the
Elfin comes out . . .

JK

If I could get similar performance in 15 meters as what I get in 18, and
still self launch, that would be very attractive. That's why so many
people thought Jeta was great. Fortunately I never considered pulling
out my checkbook. Going to a big Stemme would be of no interest to me.
If you're happy, that's great.

- Dave
On 5/26/23 12:15 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:

In a word: Stemme.

Dan
5J

On 5/26/23 08:05, kinsell wrote:

The fact is, there are no great solutions for self-launchers

I'm with Dave on this one. The Stemme is an amazing compromise, but it
misses "great" because it's large, heavy, complex to operate,
maintenance-intensive, and expensive.

The Stemme makes a very good TMG, if that's what you're after. It's not
for me or you, but I'm not going to rant and rave endlessly about how I
don't like TMG's.

The truth is, a Stemme comes a lot closer to meeting Ramy's requirements
than an FES does. Ability to self-launch 8K feet, and still have a self-retrieve capability while doing big distance flights, with high speed capability and really good glide ratio. The only box it doesn't
check is electric, which he seems to be hung up on. That 30X energy density difference between gas and electricity is hard to ignore.

-Dave

After yesterdays flights on OLC the guys in the motorgliders need to reconsider their purchases and trade those dogs in on a Lowly 27 and get a few tips from Jared. Very nice flight out of Ohio and take a look at his real triangle, not some FAI

definition of what I call an abbreviated triangle. Yep, Jared didn't have those cruising altitudes like the dudes in the motorgliders out West, yet did it in rather Purist style. OBTP

Yeah, and join you down in the swamp trying to fight alligators with a pop gun.

Tom 2G

Tommy The Tyrant, even an alligator would avoid you. OBTP

Hey Booby, I AM NOT the one who landed out in a SWAMP!

Tom 2G

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Maybe i am one of a few who did cancel an order for a MG…
I had ordered an avionic Diana 4ER, but they seemed to not be making much forward progress on the design and provided almost zero updates, so I lost confidence.
But the main reason I cancelled is for one simple reason:
Batteries in wings.
Unfortunately almost all electric gliders being developed have batteries in wings.
This is great if you have a hangar with a power outlet, and you never go on road trips to other sites.
But it is really impractical if you keep your glider in a trailer at the airport. Also in the hot CA weather you do not want batteries getting hot under the sun waiting to launch. One of the main Battery fire hazards occur during charging - now your
entire glider is a fire hazard instead of just the battery. But i think this is a much smaller risk these days. Much better to have fuselage mounted batteries that dont require disassembly of the glider to install/remove - and that you can take back to a
hotel room to charge, or back home and charge in a fire-safe location. Also I suspect easier future upgradeability to the expected double-capacity semi solid-state batteries in the coming years. Now sure, the glider needs stronger wings to handle the g-
loading due to the central mass. The only company in my mind that is making a practical-to-use electric self-launcher is Jonker’s JS3 RES. And it seems they are killing it in the market. Really not sure why the other big-name manufacturers all went
with batteries in the wings, other than ‘it was the easiest route’. So I likely will order the JS3 RES when finances allow.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 6:24:47 PM UTC-5, Jonathan Audy wrote:

Maybe i am one of a few who did cancel an order for a MG…
I had ordered an avionic Diana 4ER, but they seemed to not be making much forward progress on the design and provided almost zero updates, so I lost confidence.
But the main reason I cancelled is for one simple reason:
Batteries in wings.
Unfortunately almost all electric gliders being developed have batteries in wings.
This is great if you have a hangar with a power outlet, and you never go on road trips to other sites.
But it is really impractical if you keep your glider in a trailer at the airport. Also in the hot CA weather you do not want batteries getting hot under the sun waiting to launch. One of the main Battery fire hazards occur during charging - now your

entire glider is a fire hazard instead of just the battery. But i think this is a much smaller risk these days. Much better to have fuselage mounted batteries that dont require disassembly of the glider to install/remove - and that you can take back to a
hotel room to charge, or back home and charge in a fire-safe location. Also I suspect easier future upgradeability to the expected double-capacity semi solid-state batteries in the coming years. Now sure, the glider needs stronger wings to handle the g-
loading due to the central mass. The only company in my mind that is making a practical-to-use electric self-launcher is Jonker’s JS3 RES. And it seems they are killing it in the market. Really not sure why the other big-name manufacturers all went
with batteries in the wings, other than ‘it was the easiest route’. So I likely will order the JS3 RES when finances allow.

Are you aware the JS3 RES does not have a steerable tailwheel nor is the manufacture planning to add it. This is not going to sell well in the US as most self-launch pilots fly out of airports where it is necessary to taxi.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Most motorglider pilots in the US fly from gliderports where it is not necessary to taxi, only a convenient. Between steerable tail wheel and portable batteries I’ll pick portable batteries.

Ramy

On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 7:10:48 PM UTC-7, Terry Edmonds wrote:

On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 6:24:47 PM UTC-5, Jonathan Audy wrote:

Maybe i am one of a few who did cancel an order for a MG…
I had ordered an avionic Diana 4ER, but they seemed to not be making much forward progress on the design and provided almost zero updates, so I lost confidence.
But the main reason I cancelled is for one simple reason:
Batteries in wings.
Unfortunately almost all electric gliders being developed have batteries in wings.
This is great if you have a hangar with a power outlet, and you never go on road trips to other sites.
But it is really impractical if you keep your glider in a trailer at the airport. Also in the hot CA weather you do not want batteries getting hot under the sun waiting to launch. One of the main Battery fire hazards occur during charging - now your

entire glider is a fire hazard instead of just the battery. But i think this is a much smaller risk these days. Much better to have fuselage mounted batteries that dont require disassembly of the glider to install/remove - and that you can take back to a
hotel room to charge, or back home and charge in a fire-safe location. Also I suspect easier future upgradeability to the expected double-capacity semi solid-state batteries in the coming years. Now sure, the glider needs stronger wings to handle the g-
loading due to the central mass. The only company in my mind that is making a practical-to-use electric self-launcher is Jonker’s JS3 RES. And it seems they are killing it in the market. Really not sure why the other big-name manufacturers all went
with batteries in the wings, other than ‘it was the easiest route’. So I likely will order the JS3 RES when finances allow.

Are you aware the JS3 RES does not have a steerable tailwheel nor is the manufacture planning to add it. This is not going to sell well in the US as most self-launch pilots fly out of airports where it is necessary to taxi.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 5:19:52 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:

On Thursday, June 1, 2023 at 1:27:17 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, June 1, 2023 at 1:02:10 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:

On Wednesday, May 31, 2023 at 12:46:04 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 7:49:33 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:

It seems that I lot of Europeans use the Stemme as a TMG, not so much
here. The only time I cruise on the engine is if I'm repositioning the
glider as I did a couple of years ago when I spent a week in Rifle, CO,

Now some Europeans use the Stemme as a glider and have done such things
as fly from France, over Corsica, to Italy, and on to Greece. As a glider. That would be quite a retrieve for a purist glider!

Dan
5J
On 5/30/23 09:15, kinsell wrote:

On 5/29/23 6:34 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 1:04:04 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:

And you edited out the second half of the sentence:

if there were, we'd all be using them.

If they're so great, why aren't people flocking to them? Maybe when the
Elfin comes out . . .

JK

If I could get similar performance in 15 meters as what I get in 18, and
still self launch, that would be very attractive. That's why so many
people thought Jeta was great. Fortunately I never considered pulling
out my checkbook. Going to a big Stemme would be of no interest to me.
If you're happy, that's great.

- Dave
On 5/26/23 12:15 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:

In a word: Stemme.

Dan
5J

On 5/26/23 08:05, kinsell wrote:

The fact is, there are no great solutions for self-launchers >> I'm with Dave on this one. The Stemme is an amazing compromise, but it

misses "great" because it's large, heavy, complex to operate,
maintenance-intensive, and expensive.

The Stemme makes a very good TMG, if that's what you're after. It's not
for me or you, but I'm not going to rant and rave endlessly about how I
don't like TMG's.

The truth is, a Stemme comes a lot closer to meeting Ramy's requirements
than an FES does. Ability to self-launch 8K feet, and still have a self-retrieve capability while doing big distance flights, with high
speed capability and really good glide ratio. The only box it doesn't
check is electric, which he seems to be hung up on. That 30X energy
density difference between gas and electricity is hard to ignore.

-Dave

After yesterdays flights on OLC the guys in the motorgliders need to reconsider their purchases and trade those dogs in on a Lowly 27 and get a few tips from Jared. Very nice flight out of Ohio and take a look at his real triangle, not some FAI

definition of what I call an abbreviated triangle. Yep, Jared didn't have those cruising altitudes like the dudes in the motorgliders out West, yet did it in rather Purist style. OBTP

Yeah, and join you down in the swamp trying to fight alligators with a pop gun.

Tom 2G

Tommy The Tyrant, even an alligator would avoid you. OBTP

Hey Booby, I AM NOT the one who landed out in a SWAMP!

Tom 2G

And I am not the one that killed in a motorglider that spun in while screwing with the , "Get Me Home Button".

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 8:24:33 AM UTC-7, Dave Nadler wrote:

On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 10:39:51 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:

Most motorglider pilots in the US fly from gliderports where it is not necessary to taxi,
only a convenient...

But, lots of us fly from multiple airports where we must taxi.
For us the steerable tailwheel is a requirement...

Both a self launching motor and a steerable tailwheel are convenience items in a glider. If you've never flown with a steerable tailwheel, you do not appreciate it. For me, if I had to choose one or the other, I'm not sure I wouldn't pick the tailwheel
over the motor.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 10:39:51 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:

Most motorglider pilots in the US fly from gliderports where it is not necessary to taxi,
only a convenient...

But, lots of us fly from multiple airports where we must taxi.
For us the steerable tailwheel is a requirement...

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 8:24:33 AM UTC-7, Dave Nadler wrote:

On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 10:39:51 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:

Most motorglider pilots in the US fly from gliderports where it is not necessary to taxi,
only a convenient...

But, lots of us fly from multiple airports where we must taxi.
For us the steerable tailwheel is a requirement...

Flying from a gliderport usually means there are people willing and able to help you position your glider for the launch and help you return it to the ramp area after a landing, whether you are a towed or motored glider. This rarely true at other
airports, where you might have a 1000'-3000' trip to the end of the runway. Push it? Physically draining, and blocks the taxiway or the runway while you are doing it. Tow it with a vehicle? That works at some low-use airports, especially if you have a
crew that can return the vehicle to the ramp, though some airports get upset when a vehicle appears on the runway or taxiway. Towered airports really, really expect you to taxi, but sometimes arrangements can be made.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 8:40:26 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:

On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 8:24:33 AM UTC-7, Dave Nadler wrote:

On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 10:39:51 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:

Most motorglider pilots in the US fly from gliderports where it is not necessary to taxi,
only a convenient...

But, lots of us fly from multiple airports where we must taxi.
For us the steerable tailwheel is a requirement...

Both a self launching motor and a steerable tailwheel are convenience items in a glider. If you've never flown with a steerable tailwheel, you do not appreciate it. For me, if I had to choose one or the other, I'm not sure I wouldn't pick the tailwheel

over the motor.
I think a steerable tail is also a safety feature, especially in cross winds or unassisted launches (towed or motored). It's so much easier to keep the glider going straight at the start, and much easier to turn off the runway safely on landing. If had
to fly a towed glider, I'd still want steerable tailwheel.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 10:59:47 AM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 8:40:26 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:

On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 8:24:33 AM UTC-7, Dave Nadler wrote:

On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 10:39:51 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:

Most motorglider pilots in the US fly from gliderports where it is not necessary to taxi,
only a convenient...

But, lots of us fly from multiple airports where we must taxi.
For us the steerable tailwheel is a requirement...

Both a self launching motor and a steerable tailwheel are convenience items in a glider. If you've never flown with a steerable tailwheel, you do not appreciate it. For me, if I had to choose one or the other, I'm not sure I wouldn't pick the

tailwheel over the motor.

I think a steerable tail is also a safety feature, especially in cross winds or unassisted launches (towed or motored). It's so much easier to keep the glider going straight at the start, and much easier to turn off the runway safely on landing. If had

to fly a towed glider, I'd still want steerable tailwheel.
Owning a self-launch glider is all about being independent and being able to fly at any suitable field by yourself. Not having a steerable tailwheel limits when and where you can fly.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

All true. There are many advantages to self launchers such as being able to fly wherever and whenever, but the reality is, that at least all over the west where I fly, most motorglider pilots limit themselves to gliderports and as such do not really take
advantage of their steerable tailwheel beyond convenient. I can think of more airports than I can ever fly that will not require having steerable tailwheel. To me, to be independent means that I can easily recharge the batteries, which means portable
charger too.

Ramy


On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 10:55:39 AM UTC-7, Terry Edmonds wrote:

On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 10:59:47 AM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 8:40:26 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:

On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 8:24:33 AM UTC-7, Dave Nadler wrote:

On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 10:39:51 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:

Most motorglider pilots in the US fly from gliderports where it is not necessary to taxi,
only a convenient...

But, lots of us fly from multiple airports where we must taxi.
For us the steerable tailwheel is a requirement...

Both a self launching motor and a steerable tailwheel are convenience items in a glider. If you've never flown with a steerable tailwheel, you do not appreciate it. For me, if I had to choose one or the other, I'm not sure I wouldn't pick the

tailwheel over the motor.

I think a steerable tail is also a safety feature, especially in cross winds or unassisted launches (towed or motored). It's so much easier to keep the glider going straight at the start, and much easier to turn off the runway safely on landing. If

had to fly a towed glider, I'd still want steerable tailwheel.

Owning a self-launch glider is all about being independent and being able to fly at any suitable field by yourself. Not having a steerable tailwheel limits when and where you can fly.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 7:39:51 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:

Most motorglider pilots in the US fly from gliderports where it is not necessary to taxi, only a convenient. Between steerable tail wheel and portable batteries I’ll pick portable batteries.

Ramy
On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 7:10:48 PM UTC-7, Terry Edmonds wrote:

On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 6:24:47 PM UTC-5, Jonathan Audy wrote:

Maybe i am one of a few who did cancel an order for a MG…
I had ordered an avionic Diana 4ER, but they seemed to not be making much forward progress on the design and provided almost zero updates, so I lost confidence.
But the main reason I cancelled is for one simple reason:
Batteries in wings.
Unfortunately almost all electric gliders being developed have batteries in wings.
This is great if you have a hangar with a power outlet, and you never go on road trips to other sites.
But it is really impractical if you keep your glider in a trailer at the airport. Also in the hot CA weather you do not want batteries getting hot under the sun waiting to launch. One of the main Battery fire hazards occur during charging - now

your entire glider is a fire hazard instead of just the battery. But i think this is a much smaller risk these days. Much better to have fuselage mounted batteries that dont require disassembly of the glider to install/remove - and that you can take back
to a hotel room to charge, or back home and charge in a fire-safe location. Also I suspect easier future upgradeability to the expected double-capacity semi solid-state batteries in the coming years. Now sure, the glider needs stronger wings to handle
the g-loading due to the central mass. The only company in my mind that is making a practical-to-use electric self-launcher is Jonker’s JS3 RES. And it seems they are killing it in the market. Really not sure why the other big-name manufacturers all
went with batteries in the wings, other than ‘it was the easiest route’. So I likely will order the JS3 RES when finances allow.

Are you aware the JS3 RES does not have a steerable tailwheel nor is the manufacture planning to add it. This is not going to sell well in the US as most self-launch pilots fly out of airports where it is necessary to taxi.

Ramy, you are probably right. Using the OLC data for 2022, USA, ASH26E/30Mi/31Mi18-12/DG400/DG800 (all these gliders have steerable tailwheels) I counted the flights from airports that I thought didn't have a soaring operation. That came to 145 flights
out of 824 (total), or 17%.

There's another factor to consider with the JS3 (or any electric glider): the pilots are likely to avoid taxiing as much as possible. That's to preserve their powered climb capacity for a self-retrieve, since that capacity is significantly less than a
gasoline glider. They may even want to take tows for the same reason, which means even fewer that 17% will be interested in airports without a soaring operation. It will be interesting to see the OLC for the electric gliders in a couple of years.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Eric, I replied the same time as you, with the same conclusion. Thanks for the stats confirming my observation.
If I’ll owe a JS3, I’ll probably fly occasionally from non glider ports which do not require taxing, there are many I can think of. But I would want to be able to take a charger with me so I can land somewhere else and relaunch. This will be more
important to me than steerable tailwheel.

Ramy

On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 12:06:54 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 7:39:51 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:

Most motorglider pilots in the US fly from gliderports where it is not necessary to taxi, only a convenient. Between steerable tail wheel and portable batteries I’ll pick portable batteries.

Ramy
On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 7:10:48 PM UTC-7, Terry Edmonds wrote:

On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 6:24:47 PM UTC-5, Jonathan Audy wrote:

Maybe i am one of a few who did cancel an order for a MG…
I had ordered an avionic Diana 4ER, but they seemed to not be making much forward progress on the design and provided almost zero updates, so I lost confidence.
But the main reason I cancelled is for one simple reason:
Batteries in wings.
Unfortunately almost all electric gliders being developed have batteries in wings.
This is great if you have a hangar with a power outlet, and you never go on road trips to other sites.
But it is really impractical if you keep your glider in a trailer at the airport. Also in the hot CA weather you do not want batteries getting hot under the sun waiting to launch. One of the main Battery fire hazards occur during charging - now

your entire glider is a fire hazard instead of just the battery. But i think this is a much smaller risk these days. Much better to have fuselage mounted batteries that dont require disassembly of the glider to install/remove - and that you can take back
to a hotel room to charge, or back home and charge in a fire-safe location. Also I suspect easier future upgradeability to the expected double-capacity semi solid-state batteries in the coming years. Now sure, the glider needs stronger wings to handle
the g-loading due to the central mass. The only company in my mind that is making a practical-to-use electric self-launcher is Jonker’s JS3 RES. And it seems they are killing it in the market. Really not sure why the other big-name manufacturers all
went with batteries in the wings, other than ‘it was the easiest route’. So I likely will order the JS3 RES when finances allow.

Are you aware the JS3 RES does not have a steerable tailwheel nor is the manufacture planning to add it. This is not going to sell well in the US as most self-launch pilots fly out of airports where it is necessary to taxi.

Ramy, you are probably right. Using the OLC data for 2022, USA, ASH26E/30Mi/31Mi18-12/DG400/DG800 (all these gliders have steerable tailwheels) I counted the flights from airports that I thought didn't have a soaring operation. That came to 145 flights

out of 824 (total), or 17%.

There's another factor to consider with the JS3 (or any electric glider): the pilots are likely to avoid taxiing as much as possible. That's to preserve their powered climb capacity for a self-retrieve, since that capacity is significantly less than a

gasoline glider. They may even want to take tows for the same reason, which means even fewer that 17% will be interested in airports without a soaring operation. It will be interesting to see the OLC for the electric gliders in a couple of years.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 7:10:48 PM UTC-7, Terry Edmonds wrote:

On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 6:24:47 PM UTC-5, Jonathan Audy wrote:

Maybe i am one of a few who did cancel an order for a MG…
I had ordered an avionic Diana 4ER, but they seemed to not be making much forward progress on the design and provided almost zero updates, so I lost confidence.
But the main reason I cancelled is for one simple reason:
Batteries in wings.
Unfortunately almost all electric gliders being developed have batteries in wings.
This is great if you have a hangar with a power outlet, and you never go on road trips to other sites.
But it is really impractical if you keep your glider in a trailer at the airport. Also in the hot CA weather you do not want batteries getting hot under the sun waiting to launch. One of the main Battery fire hazards occur during charging - now your

entire glider is a fire hazard instead of just the battery. But i think this is a much smaller risk these days. Much better to have fuselage mounted batteries that dont require disassembly of the glider to install/remove - and that you can take back to a
hotel room to charge, or back home and charge in a fire-safe location. Also I suspect easier future upgradeability to the expected double-capacity semi solid-state batteries in the coming years. Now sure, the glider needs stronger wings to handle the g-
loading due to the central mass. The only company in my mind that is making a practical-to-use electric self-launcher is Jonker’s JS3 RES. And it seems they are killing it in the market. Really not sure why the other big-name manufacturers all went
with batteries in the wings, other than ‘it was the easiest route’. So I likely will order the JS3 RES when finances allow.

Are you aware the JS3 RES does not have a steerable tailwheel nor is the manufacture planning to add it. This is not going to sell well in the US as most self-launch pilots fly out of airports where it is necessary to taxi.

I'm pretty sure I checked the "steerable and retractable" box on the order form - we'll see when it shows up...

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 12:58:47 PM UTC-7, Doug Bailey wrote:

On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 7:10:48 PM UTC-7, Terry Edmonds wrote:

On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 6:24:47 PM UTC-5, Jonathan Audy wrote:

Maybe i am one of a few who did cancel an order for a MG…
I had ordered an avionic Diana 4ER, but they seemed to not be making much forward progress on the design and provided almost zero updates, so I lost confidence.
But the main reason I cancelled is for one simple reason:
Batteries in wings.
Unfortunately almost all electric gliders being developed have batteries in wings.
This is great if you have a hangar with a power outlet, and you never go on road trips to other sites.
But it is really impractical if you keep your glider in a trailer at the airport. Also in the hot CA weather you do not want batteries getting hot under the sun waiting to launch. One of the main Battery fire hazards occur during charging - now

your entire glider is a fire hazard instead of just the battery. But i think this is a much smaller risk these days. Much better to have fuselage mounted batteries that dont require disassembly of the glider to install/remove - and that you can take back
to a hotel room to charge, or back home and charge in a fire-safe location. Also I suspect easier future upgradeability to the expected double-capacity semi solid-state batteries in the coming years. Now sure, the glider needs stronger wings to handle
the g-loading due to the central mass. The only company in my mind that is making a practical-to-use electric self-launcher is Jonker’s JS3 RES. And it seems they are killing it in the market. Really not sure why the other big-name manufacturers all
went with batteries in the wings, other than ‘it was the easiest route’. So I likely will order the JS3 RES when finances allow.

Are you aware the JS3 RES does not have a steerable tailwheel nor is the manufacture planning to add it. This is not going to sell well in the US as most self-launch pilots fly out of airports where it is necessary to taxi.

I'm pretty sure I checked the "steerable and retractable" box on the order form - we'll see when it shows up...

My guess is the order form is more current than the website, which does not mention "steerable". And why wouldn't Jonkers make one available? It's not new technology: all the other self-launchers have one (my 28 year old ASH26E has one), and it adds very
little weight.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

fyi Jonker dealer Leo just confirmed to me there is no steerable tail wheel on the JS3 RES, nor is there likely to be due to limited space.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 6:38:44 PM UTC-4, Jonathan Audy wrote:

fyi Jonker dealer Leo just confirmed to me there is no steerable tail wheel on the JS3 RES, nor is there likely to be due to limited space.

Purist do not need steerable tail wheels, we know how to use the rudders. OBTP

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

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On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 3:20:06 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:

Ramy how long do you expect a charge to take? Will you get airborne
again the same day or spend the night? The fact that you landed might
mean that you won't be able to soar home until the next day. With a gas powered self launcher, you'd have better options.

As a side story, I was once flying a friend's ASW-24E out of Black
Forest in Colorado and on the other side of Pike's Peak some 60 miles
away. I got low over Canyon City but, not to worry, I simply started
the engine... And promptly ran out of gas! So I landed and the special
fuel pump was in the owner's car so I had to call for a retrieve.

We boxed the glider up and I bought dinner. Another adventure for the
books!

Dan
5J
On 10/18/23 13:17, Ramy wrote:

Eric, I replied the same time as you, with the same conclusion. Thanks for the stats confirming my observation.
If I’ll owe a JS3, I’ll probably fly occasionally from non glider ports which do not require taxing, there are many I can think of. But I would want to be able to take a charger with me so I can land somewhere else and relaunch. This will be more

important to me than steerable tailwheel.

Ramy

On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 12:06:54 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 7:39:51 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:

Most motorglider pilots in the US fly from gliderports where it is not necessary to taxi, only a convenient. Between steerable tail wheel and portable batteries I’ll pick portable batteries.

Ramy
On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 7:10:48 PM UTC-7, Terry Edmonds wrote: >>>> On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 6:24:47 PM UTC-5, Jonathan Audy wrote:

Maybe i am one of a few who did cancel an order for a MG…
I had ordered an avionic Diana 4ER, but they seemed to not be making much forward progress on the design and provided almost zero updates, so I lost confidence.
But the main reason I cancelled is for one simple reason:
Batteries in wings.
Unfortunately almost all electric gliders being developed have batteries in wings.
This is great if you have a hangar with a power outlet, and you never go on road trips to other sites.
But it is really impractical if you keep your glider in a trailer at the airport. Also in the hot CA weather you do not want batteries getting hot under the sun waiting to launch. One of the main Battery fire hazards occur during charging - now

your entire glider is a fire hazard instead of just the battery. But i think this is a much smaller risk these days. Much better to have fuselage mounted batteries that dont require disassembly of the glider to install/remove - and that you can take back
to a hotel room to charge, or back home and charge in a fire-safe location. Also I suspect easier future upgradeability to the expected double-capacity semi solid-state batteries in the coming years. Now sure, the glider needs stronger wings to handle
the g-loading due to the central mass. The only company in my mind that is making a practical-to-use electric self-launcher is Jonker’s JS3 RES. And it seems they are killing it in the market. Really not sure why the other big-name manufacturers all
went with batteries in the wings, other than ‘it was the easiest route’. So I likely will order the JS3 RES when finances allow.

Are you aware the JS3 RES does not have a steerable tailwheel nor is the manufacture planning to add it. This is not going to sell well in the US as most self-launch pilots fly out of airports where it is necessary to taxi.

Ramy, you are probably right. Using the OLC data for 2022, USA, ASH26E/30Mi/31Mi18-12/DG400/DG800 (all these gliders have steerable tailwheels) I counted the flights from airports that I thought didn't have a soaring operation. That came to 145

flights out of 824 (total), or 17%.

There's another factor to consider with the JS3 (or any electric glider): the pilots are likely to avoid taxiing as much as possible. That's to preserve their powered climb capacity for a self-retrieve, since that capacity is significantly less than

a gasoline glider. They may even want to take tows for the same reason, which means even fewer that 17% will be interested in airports without a soaring operation. It will be interesting to see the OLC for the electric gliders in a couple of years.
An onboard charger will charge at about 1-1.5 kwh, or about 12-18%%/hour. How soon you can take off depends how much more you need to get home: best case you are back in the air in time to make dinner, worst you wait till morning. But it also lets you do
an unassisted safari, where you fly from airport to airport, charge overnight while you sleep, and continue the next day. And, if it's good soaring, you may not need to charge every day.

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On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 3:06:54 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

There's another factor to consider with the JS3 (or any electric glider):
the pilots are likely to avoid taxiing as much as possible.
That's to preserve their powered climb capacity for a self-retrieve, since that
capacity is significantly less than a gasoline glider. They may even want to take tows for the same reason, which means even fewer that 17% will be interested in airports without a soaring operation.
It will be interesting to see the OLC for the electric gliders in a couple of years.

No. It takes very little energy to taxi, after all you could push the thing. Taxied my electric every time I flew it.

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On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 4:05:09 PM UTC-7, Dave Nadler wrote:

On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 3:06:54 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

There's another factor to consider with the JS3 (or any electric glider): the pilots are likely to avoid taxiing as much as possible.
That's to preserve their powered climb capacity for a self-retrieve, since that
capacity is significantly less than a gasoline glider. They may even want to
take tows for the same reason, which means even fewer that 17% will be interested in airports without a soaring operation.
It will be interesting to see the OLC for the electric gliders in a couple of years.

No. It takes very little energy to taxi, after all you could push the thing. Taxied my electric every time I flew it.

I could push the thing, but how can I push a
How much battery capacity did it take to taxi, say, 1000' on a level airport? 2%?

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On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 3:53:08 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 6:38:44 PM UTC-4, Jonathan Audy wrote:

fyi Jonker dealer Leo just confirmed to me there is no steerable tail wheel on the JS3 RES, nor is there likely to be due to limited space.

Purist do not need steerable tail wheels, we know how to use the rudders. OBTP

Yeah, we see them tying up the runway ALL THE TIME at Ely.

Tom 2G

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On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 2:00:54 PM UTC+10, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 4:05:09 PM UTC-7, Dave Nadler wrote:

On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 3:06:54 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

There's another factor to consider with the JS3 (or any electric glider):
the pilots are likely to avoid taxiing as much as possible.
That's to preserve their powered climb capacity for a self-retrieve, since that
capacity is significantly less than a gasoline glider. They may even want to
take tows for the same reason, which means even fewer that 17% will be interested in airports without a soaring operation.
It will be interesting to see the OLC for the electric gliders in a couple of years.

No. It takes very little energy to taxi, after all you could push the thing.
Taxied my electric every time I flew it.

I could push the thing, but how can I push a
How much battery capacity did it take to taxi, say, 1000' on a level airport? 2%?

Taxiing either the JS3 RES or a (Diana 2) FES is possible but only with very shallow turns. On a 30m wide runway I can usually get the 90 degree turn down a taxiway at towered aerodromes. Sometimes I get it wrong and have to get out and realign myself.
The Diana is easy enough to move that I usually just walk it around by the tail, but you'd never voluntarily push a JS3 anywhere if you can avoid it, I've often been moving it short distances with the motor. It's sometimes convenient to put the tail
dolly and wing walker on and 'tow it out' with the engine, then walk the gear back to your car.

Power consumption taxiing is negligible. Hasn't come off 100% charge in either glider doing so.

There is no inbuilt charger for the JS3 or the FES system. The FES has a travel charger about the size of a large laptop charger, which will go from flat to full in about 14 hours. JS/Solo say a travel charger is something they are considering but it's
not an option nor is guaranteed to happen.

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I couldn't imagine having a motorglider without a steerable tailwheel, it would be such a pain in the ass!
What - every time you need to make a turn you shut down get out and pick up the tailboom? Those MG tailbooms are heavy.
Or would you just tow it out with your car and dollies like a gravity ship?
And put it away with your car and dollies?

With a steerable tailwheel it is SO easy.

Untie your ship
Do your preflight checks.
Get in and start up
Taxi out to the take off point like a normal airplane, no assistance needed. This will likely mean you need to to make several 90 degree turns
Take off.
Land
Taxi back to your tiedown spot via at least a couple of turns.
Your done- no assistance needed.
The JS3 is such a modern ship, It's hard to believe it doesn't have a steerable tailwheel IMHO
Nick
T

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Need to charge your electric JS3 or some other electric glider? Pick one. https://powerequipment.honda.com/generators/recreational-generators

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Assuming there's an electrical outlet AND it's within reach. You would
need to plan your airports for that to work rather than simply flying "thataway".

The beauty of a partner with a trailer (alternating flying days) and
ground launching means that you can land anywhere that you're
comfortable with the ground launch options. Same for a gas powered self launcher if you have the range.

With about 8 hours worth of fuel, I'd bet the Stemme is capable of
running the length of the Rockies or Sierras without looking for gas. I
add around 10 gallons of car gas once or twice per year.

Dan
5J

On 10/18/23 17:00, Eric Greenwell wrote:

charge overnight while you sleep, and continue the next day

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