Recently, Old Bob the Purist wrote:during a Seniors event when some guy left an airport area low and was going to rely on the motor and it did not start when called upon and the other there was a malfunction of the engine and it would not start and also resulted in a land out. So with
"Eric, you must admit that convenience and safety go together. What is interesting is the reliability of the motorglider when needed. I can only recall two instances where the motor did not start when called upon that resulted in land outs. Once was
A motor does not automatically give you safety or convenience. For some pilots, the additional complexity and cost of a motor exceeds the convenience of tows when desired, and for others, that complexity decreases their safety when low and underpressure to avoid a landout.
But it's good question: just how reliably does a motorglider start? That's a bit like asking "how reliable is the L/D on your glider", because L/D is what most of us depend on to keep us safe during a flight. The answer to both questions is "it depends"; for example, the type of motorglider, it's maintenance, and pilot ability can all strongly affect the success of an attempted start in stressful conditions (and knowing you will crash if the engine doesn't start is definitely stressful). The older (
Using your 98% reliability for starting, I'd expect to have a failed in-flight start about once every 10 years. A crash every 10 years sounds like very poor odds to me! No crashes for me, however, even though I made a lot use of the convenience of mymotorglider to enhance my soaring experience, as I maintain my safety because I don't count on it starting to "save my ass". You, on the other hand, would gain neither convenience nor safety with a motorglider, unless you change the way you've been
On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 4:13:14 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:during a Seniors event when some guy left an airport area low and was going to rely on the motor and it did not start when called upon and the other there was a malfunction of the engine and it would not start and also resulted in a land out. So with
Recently, Old Bob the Purist wrote:
"Eric, you must admit that convenience and safety go together. What is interesting is the reliability of the motorglider when needed. I can only recall two instances where the motor did not start when called upon that resulted in land outs. Once was
pressure to avoid a landout.A motor does not automatically give you safety or convenience. For some pilots, the additional complexity and cost of a motor exceeds the convenience of tows when desired, and for others, that complexity decreases their safety when low and under
depends"; for example, the type of motorglider, it's maintenance, and pilot ability can all strongly affect the success of an attempted start in stressful conditions (and knowing you will crash if the engine doesn't start is definitely stressful). TheBut it's good question: just how reliably does a motorglider start? That's a bit like asking "how reliable is the L/D on your glider", because L/D is what most of us depend on to keep us safe during a flight. The answer to both questions is "it
motorglider to enhance my soaring experience, as I maintain my safety because I don't count on it starting to "save my ass". You, on the other hand, would gain neither convenience nor safety with a motorglider, unless you change the way you've beenUsing your 98% reliability for starting, I'd expect to have a failed in-flight start about once every 10 years. A crash every 10 years sounds like very poor odds to me! No crashes for me, however, even though I made a lot use of the convenience of my
Eric, I appreciate the compliment that you gave me about flying without a motor, instead of 5 + years please make it 45+ years. Why do you refer to landing out as crashing??? Landing out is not crashing rather an inevitable event as all PURIST must becapable of performing, if you cannot accomplish that objective then you need a motorglider. Even if two stroke engines are less reliable than 98% they offset the purist by whatever percentage you choose to tag them with, remember the purist has zero %.
The pure glider has zero reliability and relies only on sound decision making and pilot performance, we do not have that get me home button, even 50% is better than zero%. Until the time comes that I need a motorglider I will continue to fly my Lowly27 and give the Big Dogs a run for their money. Old Bob, The Purist
On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 4:07:44 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:was during a Seniors event when some guy left an airport area low and was going to rely on the motor and it did not start when called upon and the other there was a malfunction of the engine and it would not start and also resulted in a land out. So with
On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 4:13:14 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Recently, Old Bob the Purist wrote:
"Eric, you must admit that convenience and safety go together. What is interesting is the reliability of the motorglider when needed. I can only recall two instances where the motor did not start when called upon that resulted in land outs. Once
pressure to avoid a landout.A motor does not automatically give you safety or convenience. For some pilots, the additional complexity and cost of a motor exceeds the convenience of tows when desired, and for others, that complexity decreases their safety when low and under
depends"; for example, the type of motorglider, it's maintenance, and pilot ability can all strongly affect the success of an attempted start in stressful conditions (and knowing you will crash if the engine doesn't start is definitely stressful). TheBut it's good question: just how reliably does a motorglider start? That's a bit like asking "how reliable is the L/D on your glider", because L/D is what most of us depend on to keep us safe during a flight. The answer to both questions is "it
my motorglider to enhance my soaring experience, as I maintain my safety because I don't count on it starting to "save my ass". You, on the other hand, would gain neither convenience nor safety with a motorglider, unless you change the way you've beenUsing your 98% reliability for starting, I'd expect to have a failed in-flight start about once every 10 years. A crash every 10 years sounds like very poor odds to me! No crashes for me, however, even though I made a lot use of the convenience of
be capable of performing, if you cannot accomplish that objective then you need a motorglider. Even if two stroke engines are less reliable than 98% they offset the purist by whatever percentage you choose to tag them with, remember the purist has zero %.Eric, I appreciate the compliment that you gave me about flying without a motor, instead of 5 + years please make it 45+ years. Why do you refer to landing out as crashing??? Landing out is not crashing rather an inevitable event as all PURIST must
27 and give the Big Dogs a run for their money. Old Bob, The PuristThe pure glider has zero reliability and relies only on sound decision making and pilot performance, we do not have that get me home button, even 50% is better than zero%. Until the time comes that I need a motorglider I will continue to fly my Lowly
_You_ are the one using the phrase "save your ass safety device", implying the pilot will crash if the engine doesn't start. I do not think landing out rises to the "risking your ass" category, as all of us take that risk when the launch is over. Say "risking a retrieve", if that's what you mean. The motor counts as a "safety device" only if the pilot intends to fly where it might be required to avoid a landing that will be a crash with glider damage as a minimum, or fatal as a maximum.
EricYes, I did use the term, Save Your Ass", only as a reference to enhancing your flight to look better rather than do the manly thing like being a PURIST and dealing with what you are dealt. Maybe I should just use the acronym, SYAG, or AKA as "Save Your
On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 11:34:06 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:was during a Seniors event when some guy left an airport area low and was going to rely on the motor and it did not start when called upon and the other there was a malfunction of the engine and it would not start and also resulted in a land out. So with
On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 4:07:44 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 4:13:14 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Recently, Old Bob the Purist wrote:
"Eric, you must admit that convenience and safety go together. What is interesting is the reliability of the motorglider when needed. I can only recall two instances where the motor did not start when called upon that resulted in land outs. Once
pressure to avoid a landout.A motor does not automatically give you safety or convenience. For some pilots, the additional complexity and cost of a motor exceeds the convenience of tows when desired, and for others, that complexity decreases their safety when low and under
depends"; for example, the type of motorglider, it's maintenance, and pilot ability can all strongly affect the success of an attempted start in stressful conditions (and knowing you will crash if the engine doesn't start is definitely stressful). TheBut it's good question: just how reliably does a motorglider start? That's a bit like asking "how reliable is the L/D on your glider", because L/D is what most of us depend on to keep us safe during a flight. The answer to both questions is "it
of my motorglider to enhance my soaring experience, as I maintain my safety because I don't count on it starting to "save my ass". You, on the other hand, would gain neither convenience nor safety with a motorglider, unless you change the way you've beenUsing your 98% reliability for starting, I'd expect to have a failed in-flight start about once every 10 years. A crash every 10 years sounds like very poor odds to me! No crashes for me, however, even though I made a lot use of the convenience
be capable of performing, if you cannot accomplish that objective then you need a motorglider. Even if two stroke engines are less reliable than 98% they offset the purist by whatever percentage you choose to tag them with, remember the purist has zero %.Eric, I appreciate the compliment that you gave me about flying without a motor, instead of 5 + years please make it 45+ years. Why do you refer to landing out as crashing??? Landing out is not crashing rather an inevitable event as all PURIST must
Lowly 27 and give the Big Dogs a run for their money. Old Bob, The PuristThe pure glider has zero reliability and relies only on sound decision making and pilot performance, we do not have that get me home button, even 50% is better than zero%. Until the time comes that I need a motorglider I will continue to fly my
"risking a retrieve", if that's what you mean. The motor counts as a "safety device" only if the pilot intends to fly where it might be required to avoid a landing that will be a crash with glider damage as a minimum, or fatal as a maximum._You_ are the one using the phrase "save your ass safety device", implying the pilot will crash if the engine doesn't start. I do not think landing out rises to the "risking your ass" category, as all of us take that risk when the launch is over. Say
Ass Glider". Old Bob, The PuristEricYes, I did use the term, Save Your Ass", only as a reference to enhancing your flight to look better rather than do the manly thing like being a PURIST and dealing with what you are dealt. Maybe I should just use the acronym, SYAG, or AKA as "Save Your
On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 4:07:44 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:was during a Seniors event when some guy left an airport area low and was going to rely on the motor and it did not start when called upon and the other there was a malfunction of the engine and it would not start and also resulted in a land out. So with
On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 4:13:14 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Recently, Old Bob the Purist wrote:
"Eric, you must admit that convenience and safety go together. What is interesting is the reliability of the motorglider when needed. I can only recall two instances where the motor did not start when called upon that resulted in land outs. Once
pressure to avoid a landout.A motor does not automatically give you safety or convenience. For some pilots, the additional complexity and cost of a motor exceeds the convenience of tows when desired, and for others, that complexity decreases their safety when low and under
depends"; for example, the type of motorglider, it's maintenance, and pilot ability can all strongly affect the success of an attempted start in stressful conditions (and knowing you will crash if the engine doesn't start is definitely stressful). TheBut it's good question: just how reliably does a motorglider start? That's a bit like asking "how reliable is the L/D on your glider", because L/D is what most of us depend on to keep us safe during a flight. The answer to both questions is "it
my motorglider to enhance my soaring experience, as I maintain my safety because I don't count on it starting to "save my ass". You, on the other hand, would gain neither convenience nor safety with a motorglider, unless you change the way you've beenUsing your 98% reliability for starting, I'd expect to have a failed in-flight start about once every 10 years. A crash every 10 years sounds like very poor odds to me! No crashes for me, however, even though I made a lot use of the convenience of
be capable of performing, if you cannot accomplish that objective then you need a motorglider. Even if two stroke engines are less reliable than 98% they offset the purist by whatever percentage you choose to tag them with, remember the purist has zero %.Eric, I appreciate the compliment that you gave me about flying without a motor, instead of 5 + years please make it 45+ years. Why do you refer to landing out as crashing??? Landing out is not crashing rather an inevitable event as all PURIST must
27 and give the Big Dogs a run for their money. Old Bob, The PuristThe pure glider has zero reliability and relies only on sound decision making and pilot performance, we do not have that get me home button, even 50% is better than zero%. Until the time comes that I need a motorglider I will continue to fly my Lowly
_You_ are the one using the phrase "save your ass safety device", implying the pilot will crash if the engine doesn't start. I do not think landing out rises to the "risking your ass" category, as all of us take that risk when the launch is over. Say "risking a retrieve", if that's what you mean. The motor counts as a "safety device" only if the pilot intends to fly where it might be required to avoid a landing that will be a crash with glider damage as a minimum, or fatal as a maximum.
EricWhile an off airport landing doesn't guarantee a crash, it increases the odds substantially. There is about a 10x increase in chances of damage in a landing off airport, compared to an airport landing. You can quickly calculate this from the Soaring
On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 11:34:06 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:was during a Seniors event when some guy left an airport area low and was going to rely on the motor and it did not start when called upon and the other there was a malfunction of the engine and it would not start and also resulted in a land out. So with
On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 4:07:44 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 4:13:14 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Recently, Old Bob the Purist wrote:
"Eric, you must admit that convenience and safety go together. What is interesting is the reliability of the motorglider when needed. I can only recall two instances where the motor did not start when called upon that resulted in land outs. Once
pressure to avoid a landout.A motor does not automatically give you safety or convenience. For some pilots, the additional complexity and cost of a motor exceeds the convenience of tows when desired, and for others, that complexity decreases their safety when low and under
depends"; for example, the type of motorglider, it's maintenance, and pilot ability can all strongly affect the success of an attempted start in stressful conditions (and knowing you will crash if the engine doesn't start is definitely stressful). TheBut it's good question: just how reliably does a motorglider start? That's a bit like asking "how reliable is the L/D on your glider", because L/D is what most of us depend on to keep us safe during a flight. The answer to both questions is "it
of my motorglider to enhance my soaring experience, as I maintain my safety because I don't count on it starting to "save my ass". You, on the other hand, would gain neither convenience nor safety with a motorglider, unless you change the way you've beenUsing your 98% reliability for starting, I'd expect to have a failed in-flight start about once every 10 years. A crash every 10 years sounds like very poor odds to me! No crashes for me, however, even though I made a lot use of the convenience
be capable of performing, if you cannot accomplish that objective then you need a motorglider. Even if two stroke engines are less reliable than 98% they offset the purist by whatever percentage you choose to tag them with, remember the purist has zero %.Eric, I appreciate the compliment that you gave me about flying without a motor, instead of 5 + years please make it 45+ years. Why do you refer to landing out as crashing??? Landing out is not crashing rather an inevitable event as all PURIST must
Lowly 27 and give the Big Dogs a run for their money. Old Bob, The PuristThe pure glider has zero reliability and relies only on sound decision making and pilot performance, we do not have that get me home button, even 50% is better than zero%. Until the time comes that I need a motorglider I will continue to fly my
"risking a retrieve", if that's what you mean. The motor counts as a "safety device" only if the pilot intends to fly where it might be required to avoid a landing that will be a crash with glider damage as a minimum, or fatal as a maximum._You_ are the one using the phrase "save your ass safety device", implying the pilot will crash if the engine doesn't start. I do not think landing out rises to the "risking your ass" category, as all of us take that risk when the launch is over. Say
Ass Glider". Old Bob, The PuristEricYes, I did use the term, Save Your Ass", only as a reference to enhancing your flight to look better rather than do the manly thing like being a PURIST and dealing with what you are dealt. Maybe I should just use the acronym, SYAG, or AKA as "Save Your
On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 4:55:54 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:Once was during a Seniors event when some guy left an airport area low and was going to rely on the motor and it did not start when called upon and the other there was a malfunction of the engine and it would not start and also resulted in a land out. So
On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 11:34:06 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 4:07:44 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 4:13:14 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Recently, Old Bob the Purist wrote:
"Eric, you must admit that convenience and safety go together. What is interesting is the reliability of the motorglider when needed. I can only recall two instances where the motor did not start when called upon that resulted in land outs.
under pressure to avoid a landout.A motor does not automatically give you safety or convenience. For some pilots, the additional complexity and cost of a motor exceeds the convenience of tows when desired, and for others, that complexity decreases their safety when low and
depends"; for example, the type of motorglider, it's maintenance, and pilot ability can all strongly affect the success of an attempted start in stressful conditions (and knowing you will crash if the engine doesn't start is definitely stressful). TheBut it's good question: just how reliably does a motorglider start? That's a bit like asking "how reliable is the L/D on your glider", because L/D is what most of us depend on to keep us safe during a flight. The answer to both questions is "it
of my motorglider to enhance my soaring experience, as I maintain my safety because I don't count on it starting to "save my ass". You, on the other hand, would gain neither convenience nor safety with a motorglider, unless you change the way you've beenUsing your 98% reliability for starting, I'd expect to have a failed in-flight start about once every 10 years. A crash every 10 years sounds like very poor odds to me! No crashes for me, however, even though I made a lot use of the convenience
must be capable of performing, if you cannot accomplish that objective then you need a motorglider. Even if two stroke engines are less reliable than 98% they offset the purist by whatever percentage you choose to tag them with, remember the purist hasEric, I appreciate the compliment that you gave me about flying without a motor, instead of 5 + years please make it 45+ years. Why do you refer to landing out as crashing??? Landing out is not crashing rather an inevitable event as all PURIST
Lowly 27 and give the Big Dogs a run for their money. Old Bob, The PuristThe pure glider has zero reliability and relies only on sound decision making and pilot performance, we do not have that get me home button, even 50% is better than zero%. Until the time comes that I need a motorglider I will continue to fly my
Say "risking a retrieve", if that's what you mean. The motor counts as a "safety device" only if the pilot intends to fly where it might be required to avoid a landing that will be a crash with glider damage as a minimum, or fatal as a maximum._You_ are the one using the phrase "save your ass safety device", implying the pilot will crash if the engine doesn't start. I do not think landing out rises to the "risking your ass" category, as all of us take that risk when the launch is over.
Your Ass Glider". Old Bob, The PuristEricYes, I did use the term, Save Your Ass", only as a reference to enhancing your flight to look better rather than do the manly thing like being a PURIST and dealing with what you are dealt. Maybe I should just use the acronym, SYAG, or AKA as "Save
Please, just stop using "save your ass" unless you mean "avoiding physical injury from a glider crash". It's totally unnecessary to use the phrase and leads to confusion about what you mean because you've been using it in the context of safety; forexample, "Eric, you must admit that convenience and safety go together."
On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 10:40:47 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:Once was during a Seniors event when some guy left an airport area low and was going to rely on the motor and it did not start when called upon and the other there was a malfunction of the engine and it would not start and also resulted in a land out. So
On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 4:55:54 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 11:34:06 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 4:07:44 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 4:13:14 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Recently, Old Bob the Purist wrote:
"Eric, you must admit that convenience and safety go together. What is interesting is the reliability of the motorglider when needed. I can only recall two instances where the motor did not start when called upon that resulted in land outs.
under pressure to avoid a landout.A motor does not automatically give you safety or convenience. For some pilots, the additional complexity and cost of a motor exceeds the convenience of tows when desired, and for others, that complexity decreases their safety when low and
it depends"; for example, the type of motorglider, it's maintenance, and pilot ability can all strongly affect the success of an attempted start in stressful conditions (and knowing you will crash if the engine doesn't start is definitely stressful). TheBut it's good question: just how reliably does a motorglider start? That's a bit like asking "how reliable is the L/D on your glider", because L/D is what most of us depend on to keep us safe during a flight. The answer to both questions is "
convenience of my motorglider to enhance my soaring experience, as I maintain my safety because I don't count on it starting to "save my ass". You, on the other hand, would gain neither convenience nor safety with a motorglider, unless you change the wayUsing your 98% reliability for starting, I'd expect to have a failed in-flight start about once every 10 years. A crash every 10 years sounds like very poor odds to me! No crashes for me, however, even though I made a lot use of the
must be capable of performing, if you cannot accomplish that objective then you need a motorglider. Even if two stroke engines are less reliable than 98% they offset the purist by whatever percentage you choose to tag them with, remember the purist hasEric, I appreciate the compliment that you gave me about flying without a motor, instead of 5 + years please make it 45+ years. Why do you refer to landing out as crashing??? Landing out is not crashing rather an inevitable event as all PURIST
Lowly 27 and give the Big Dogs a run for their money. Old Bob, The PuristThe pure glider has zero reliability and relies only on sound decision making and pilot performance, we do not have that get me home button, even 50% is better than zero%. Until the time comes that I need a motorglider I will continue to fly my
Say "risking a retrieve", if that's what you mean. The motor counts as a "safety device" only if the pilot intends to fly where it might be required to avoid a landing that will be a crash with glider damage as a minimum, or fatal as a maximum._You_ are the one using the phrase "save your ass safety device", implying the pilot will crash if the engine doesn't start. I do not think landing out rises to the "risking your ass" category, as all of us take that risk when the launch is over.
Your Ass Glider". Old Bob, The PuristEricYes, I did use the term, Save Your Ass", only as a reference to enhancing your flight to look better rather than do the manly thing like being a PURIST and dealing with what you are dealt. Maybe I should just use the acronym, SYAG, or AKA as "Save
example, "Eric, you must admit that convenience and safety go together."Please, just stop using "save your ass" unless you mean "avoiding physical injury from a glider crash". It's totally unnecessary to use the phrase and leads to confusion about what you mean because you've been using it in the context of safety; for
Eric, SYAG is like putting lipstick on a pig, it is still a pig regardless of how you dress it up. Don't take this thread so serious, Fitch seems to have this discussion in the right frame of mind. I was hoping that Bud Light would have a motorglideron their new can, it might just get them out of a deep hole. So, here we are getting into spring around the country and those motorgliders are coming out of the trailers, I am sure that none of them will be late for dinner this year.
On another note the SSA was very kind to us here on the Treasure Coast and sent John Godfrey over to Fly-In-Ranches, AKA FD25 to install a OGN system that is a nice compliment to soaring activities here in South Florida, thanks John and Davis, thesystem is helping us keep track of our gliders that are flying our challenging triangles deep into the Everglades.
I have flown my Lowly 27 a few times this spring, threaded the needle a few times and made my 5th trip around Lake O, without a motor. It is also important to notice that the SYAG's at Seminole have been flying a few nice triangles this year as opposedto past years, I guess we must be putting the pressure on the SYAG's!
The mango orchard is looking good, the finally needed rain has arrives and the fruit is looking good for a June and July harvest, I will have a box headed your way as soon as they are ready to ship. OBTP
On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 8:34:06 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:was during a Seniors event when some guy left an airport area low and was going to rely on the motor and it did not start when called upon and the other there was a malfunction of the engine and it would not start and also resulted in a land out. So with
On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 4:07:44 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 4:13:14 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Recently, Old Bob the Purist wrote:
"Eric, you must admit that convenience and safety go together. What is interesting is the reliability of the motorglider when needed. I can only recall two instances where the motor did not start when called upon that resulted in land outs. Once
pressure to avoid a landout.A motor does not automatically give you safety or convenience. For some pilots, the additional complexity and cost of a motor exceeds the convenience of tows when desired, and for others, that complexity decreases their safety when low and under
depends"; for example, the type of motorglider, it's maintenance, and pilot ability can all strongly affect the success of an attempted start in stressful conditions (and knowing you will crash if the engine doesn't start is definitely stressful). TheBut it's good question: just how reliably does a motorglider start? That's a bit like asking "how reliable is the L/D on your glider", because L/D is what most of us depend on to keep us safe during a flight. The answer to both questions is "it
of my motorglider to enhance my soaring experience, as I maintain my safety because I don't count on it starting to "save my ass". You, on the other hand, would gain neither convenience nor safety with a motorglider, unless you change the way you've beenUsing your 98% reliability for starting, I'd expect to have a failed in-flight start about once every 10 years. A crash every 10 years sounds like very poor odds to me! No crashes for me, however, even though I made a lot use of the convenience
be capable of performing, if you cannot accomplish that objective then you need a motorglider. Even if two stroke engines are less reliable than 98% they offset the purist by whatever percentage you choose to tag them with, remember the purist has zero %.Eric, I appreciate the compliment that you gave me about flying without a motor, instead of 5 + years please make it 45+ years. Why do you refer to landing out as crashing??? Landing out is not crashing rather an inevitable event as all PURIST must
Lowly 27 and give the Big Dogs a run for their money. Old Bob, The PuristThe pure glider has zero reliability and relies only on sound decision making and pilot performance, we do not have that get me home button, even 50% is better than zero%. Until the time comes that I need a motorglider I will continue to fly my
"risking a retrieve", if that's what you mean. The motor counts as a "safety device" only if the pilot intends to fly where it might be required to avoid a landing that will be a crash with glider damage as a minimum, or fatal as a maximum._You_ are the one using the phrase "save your ass safety device", implying the pilot will crash if the engine doesn't start. I do not think landing out rises to the "risking your ass" category, as all of us take that risk when the launch is over. Say
Safety foundation figures.EricWhile an off airport landing doesn't guarantee a crash, it increases the odds substantially. There is about a 10x increase in chances of damage in a landing off airport, compared to an airport landing. You can quickly calculate this from the Soaring
On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 1:54:10 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:Once was during a Seniors event when some guy left an airport area low and was going to rely on the motor and it did not start when called upon and the other there was a malfunction of the engine and it would not start and also resulted in a land out. So
On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 10:40:47 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 4:55:54 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 11:34:06 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 4:07:44 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 4:13:14 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Recently, Old Bob the Purist wrote:
"Eric, you must admit that convenience and safety go together. What is interesting is the reliability of the motorglider when needed. I can only recall two instances where the motor did not start when called upon that resulted in land outs.
under pressure to avoid a landout.A motor does not automatically give you safety or convenience. For some pilots, the additional complexity and cost of a motor exceeds the convenience of tows when desired, and for others, that complexity decreases their safety when low and
"it depends"; for example, the type of motorglider, it's maintenance, and pilot ability can all strongly affect the success of an attempted start in stressful conditions (and knowing you will crash if the engine doesn't start is definitely stressful).But it's good question: just how reliably does a motorglider start? That's a bit like asking "how reliable is the L/D on your glider", because L/D is what most of us depend on to keep us safe during a flight. The answer to both questions is
convenience of my motorglider to enhance my soaring experience, as I maintain my safety because I don't count on it starting to "save my ass". You, on the other hand, would gain neither convenience nor safety with a motorglider, unless you change the wayUsing your 98% reliability for starting, I'd expect to have a failed in-flight start about once every 10 years. A crash every 10 years sounds like very poor odds to me! No crashes for me, however, even though I made a lot use of the
PURIST must be capable of performing, if you cannot accomplish that objective then you need a motorglider. Even if two stroke engines are less reliable than 98% they offset the purist by whatever percentage you choose to tag them with, remember theEric, I appreciate the compliment that you gave me about flying without a motor, instead of 5 + years please make it 45+ years. Why do you refer to landing out as crashing??? Landing out is not crashing rather an inevitable event as all
my Lowly 27 and give the Big Dogs a run for their money. Old Bob, The PuristThe pure glider has zero reliability and relies only on sound decision making and pilot performance, we do not have that get me home button, even 50% is better than zero%. Until the time comes that I need a motorglider I will continue to fly
over. Say "risking a retrieve", if that's what you mean. The motor counts as a "safety device" only if the pilot intends to fly where it might be required to avoid a landing that will be a crash with glider damage as a minimum, or fatal as a maximum._You_ are the one using the phrase "save your ass safety device", implying the pilot will crash if the engine doesn't start. I do not think landing out rises to the "risking your ass" category, as all of us take that risk when the launch is
Save Your Ass Glider". Old Bob, The PuristEricYes, I did use the term, Save Your Ass", only as a reference to enhancing your flight to look better rather than do the manly thing like being a PURIST and dealing with what you are dealt. Maybe I should just use the acronym, SYAG, or AKA as "
example, "Eric, you must admit that convenience and safety go together."Please, just stop using "save your ass" unless you mean "avoiding physical injury from a glider crash". It's totally unnecessary to use the phrase and leads to confusion about what you mean because you've been using it in the context of safety; for
on their new can, it might just get them out of a deep hole. So, here we are getting into spring around the country and those motorgliders are coming out of the trailers, I am sure that none of them will be late for dinner this year.Eric, SYAG is like putting lipstick on a pig, it is still a pig regardless of how you dress it up. Don't take this thread so serious, Fitch seems to have this discussion in the right frame of mind. I was hoping that Bud Light would have a motorglider
system is helping us keep track of our gliders that are flying our challenging triangles deep into the Everglades.On another note the SSA was very kind to us here on the Treasure Coast and sent John Godfrey over to Fly-In-Ranches, AKA FD25 to install a OGN system that is a nice compliment to soaring activities here in South Florida, thanks John and Davis, the
opposed to past years, I guess we must be putting the pressure on the SYAG's!I have flown my Lowly 27 a few times this spring, threaded the needle a few times and made my 5th trip around Lake O, without a motor. It is also important to notice that the SYAG's at Seminole have been flying a few nice triangles this year as
They encountered a heavily forested stretch with no possibility of land out whatsoever. ALL of them ventured on w/o anyone saying on the radio that this is stupid, or questioning the wisdom of this reckless move. They were just silent. Well, one of themThe mango orchard is looking good, the finally needed rain has arrives and the fruit is looking good for a June and July harvest, I will have a box headed your way as soon as they are ready to ship. OBTPA long time ago I listened to Tom Knauff talk about a record flight he had made in the Adriondacks the previous season. At the last stretch of the flight back home he was joined by 3 other gliders. It was late in the day, of course, and lift was scarce.
Landing out is inherently risky (with the possible exception of a large, flat, plowed field) as you can't possibly see all of the potential hazards from even pattern altitude. One should expect some kind of damage once in every 10 landouts. With amotorglider, the landout is a backup to the motor. If motor failure is on the order of one in a hundred, then you could expect damage in one out of a thousand restarts (10 times 100). A typical pilot will likely never encounter this as I typically do one
TomI don't know what the restart rate is for "typical" motorglider pilots, but I restart 5+ times year, and when I flew towed gliders, I'd land away from home a few times a year. I know how to cut that number down to one (or even none, like OBTP), but it
On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 11:13:54 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:outs. Once was during a Seniors event when some guy left an airport area low and was going to rely on the motor and it did not start when called upon and the other there was a malfunction of the engine and it would not start and also resulted in a land
On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 1:54:10 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 10:40:47 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 4:55:54 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 11:34:06 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 4:07:44 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 4:13:14 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Recently, Old Bob the Purist wrote:
"Eric, you must admit that convenience and safety go together. What is interesting is the reliability of the motorglider when needed. I can only recall two instances where the motor did not start when called upon that resulted in land
and under pressure to avoid a landout.A motor does not automatically give you safety or convenience. For some pilots, the additional complexity and cost of a motor exceeds the convenience of tows when desired, and for others, that complexity decreases their safety when low
is "it depends"; for example, the type of motorglider, it's maintenance, and pilot ability can all strongly affect the success of an attempted start in stressful conditions (and knowing you will crash if the engine doesn't start is definitely stressful).But it's good question: just how reliably does a motorglider start? That's a bit like asking "how reliable is the L/D on your glider", because L/D is what most of us depend on to keep us safe during a flight. The answer to both questions
convenience of my motorglider to enhance my soaring experience, as I maintain my safety because I don't count on it starting to "save my ass". You, on the other hand, would gain neither convenience nor safety with a motorglider, unless you change the wayUsing your 98% reliability for starting, I'd expect to have a failed in-flight start about once every 10 years. A crash every 10 years sounds like very poor odds to me! No crashes for me, however, even though I made a lot use of the
PURIST must be capable of performing, if you cannot accomplish that objective then you need a motorglider. Even if two stroke engines are less reliable than 98% they offset the purist by whatever percentage you choose to tag them with, remember theEric, I appreciate the compliment that you gave me about flying without a motor, instead of 5 + years please make it 45+ years. Why do you refer to landing out as crashing??? Landing out is not crashing rather an inevitable event as all
fly my Lowly 27 and give the Big Dogs a run for their money. Old Bob, The PuristThe pure glider has zero reliability and relies only on sound decision making and pilot performance, we do not have that get me home button, even 50% is better than zero%. Until the time comes that I need a motorglider I will continue to
over. Say "risking a retrieve", if that's what you mean. The motor counts as a "safety device" only if the pilot intends to fly where it might be required to avoid a landing that will be a crash with glider damage as a minimum, or fatal as a maximum._You_ are the one using the phrase "save your ass safety device", implying the pilot will crash if the engine doesn't start. I do not think landing out rises to the "risking your ass" category, as all of us take that risk when the launch is
Save Your Ass Glider". Old Bob, The PuristEricYes, I did use the term, Save Your Ass", only as a reference to enhancing your flight to look better rather than do the manly thing like being a PURIST and dealing with what you are dealt. Maybe I should just use the acronym, SYAG, or AKA as "
for example, "Eric, you must admit that convenience and safety go together."Please, just stop using "save your ass" unless you mean "avoiding physical injury from a glider crash". It's totally unnecessary to use the phrase and leads to confusion about what you mean because you've been using it in the context of safety;
motorglider on their new can, it might just get them out of a deep hole. So, here we are getting into spring around the country and those motorgliders are coming out of the trailers, I am sure that none of them will be late for dinner this year.Eric, SYAG is like putting lipstick on a pig, it is still a pig regardless of how you dress it up. Don't take this thread so serious, Fitch seems to have this discussion in the right frame of mind. I was hoping that Bud Light would have a
system is helping us keep track of our gliders that are flying our challenging triangles deep into the Everglades.On another note the SSA was very kind to us here on the Treasure Coast and sent John Godfrey over to Fly-In-Ranches, AKA FD25 to install a OGN system that is a nice compliment to soaring activities here in South Florida, thanks John and Davis, the
opposed to past years, I guess we must be putting the pressure on the SYAG's!I have flown my Lowly 27 a few times this spring, threaded the needle a few times and made my 5th trip around Lake O, without a motor. It is also important to notice that the SYAG's at Seminole have been flying a few nice triangles this year as
scarce. They encountered a heavily forested stretch with no possibility of land out whatsoever. ALL of them ventured on w/o anyone saying on the radio that this is stupid, or questioning the wisdom of this reckless move. They were just silent. Well, oneThe mango orchard is looking good, the finally needed rain has arrives and the fruit is looking good for a June and July harvest, I will have a box headed your way as soon as they are ready to ship. OBTPA long time ago I listened to Tom Knauff talk about a record flight he had made in the Adriondacks the previous season. At the last stretch of the flight back home he was joined by 3 other gliders. It was late in the day, of course, and lift was
motorglider, the landout is a backup to the motor. If motor failure is on the order of one in a hundred, then you could expect damage in one out of a thousand restarts (10 times 100). A typical pilot will likely never encounter this as I typically do oneLanding out is inherently risky (with the possible exception of a large, flat, plowed field) as you can't possibly see all of the potential hazards from even pattern altitude. One should expect some kind of damage once in every 10 landouts. With a
means flying so conservatively, I wouldn't have as much fun as I do now. How often do you other motorglider pilots restart? Piston, rotary, jet, electric - I'm interested in replies from all pilots.TomI don't know what the restart rate is for "typical" motorglider pilots, but I restart 5+ times year, and when I flew towed gliders, I'd land away from home a few times a year. I know how to cut that number down to one (or even none, like OBTP), but it
On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 2:50:05 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:outs. Once was during a Seniors event when some guy left an airport area low and was going to rely on the motor and it did not start when called upon and the other there was a malfunction of the engine and it would not start and also resulted in a land
On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 11:13:54 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 1:54:10 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 10:40:47 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 4:55:54 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 11:34:06 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 4:07:44 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 4:13:14 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Recently, Old Bob the Purist wrote:
"Eric, you must admit that convenience and safety go together. What is interesting is the reliability of the motorglider when needed. I can only recall two instances where the motor did not start when called upon that resulted in land
and under pressure to avoid a landout.A motor does not automatically give you safety or convenience. For some pilots, the additional complexity and cost of a motor exceeds the convenience of tows when desired, and for others, that complexity decreases their safety when low
questions is "it depends"; for example, the type of motorglider, it's maintenance, and pilot ability can all strongly affect the success of an attempted start in stressful conditions (and knowing you will crash if the engine doesn't start is definitelyBut it's good question: just how reliably does a motorglider start? That's a bit like asking "how reliable is the L/D on your glider", because L/D is what most of us depend on to keep us safe during a flight. The answer to both
convenience of my motorglider to enhance my soaring experience, as I maintain my safety because I don't count on it starting to "save my ass". You, on the other hand, would gain neither convenience nor safety with a motorglider, unless you change the wayUsing your 98% reliability for starting, I'd expect to have a failed in-flight start about once every 10 years. A crash every 10 years sounds like very poor odds to me! No crashes for me, however, even though I made a lot use of the
PURIST must be capable of performing, if you cannot accomplish that objective then you need a motorglider. Even if two stroke engines are less reliable than 98% they offset the purist by whatever percentage you choose to tag them with, remember theEric, I appreciate the compliment that you gave me about flying without a motor, instead of 5 + years please make it 45+ years. Why do you refer to landing out as crashing??? Landing out is not crashing rather an inevitable event as all
fly my Lowly 27 and give the Big Dogs a run for their money. Old Bob, The PuristThe pure glider has zero reliability and relies only on sound decision making and pilot performance, we do not have that get me home button, even 50% is better than zero%. Until the time comes that I need a motorglider I will continue to
over. Say "risking a retrieve", if that's what you mean. The motor counts as a "safety device" only if the pilot intends to fly where it might be required to avoid a landing that will be a crash with glider damage as a minimum, or fatal as a maximum._You_ are the one using the phrase "save your ass safety device", implying the pilot will crash if the engine doesn't start. I do not think landing out rises to the "risking your ass" category, as all of us take that risk when the launch is
Save Your Ass Glider". Old Bob, The PuristEricYes, I did use the term, Save Your Ass", only as a reference to enhancing your flight to look better rather than do the manly thing like being a PURIST and dealing with what you are dealt. Maybe I should just use the acronym, SYAG, or AKA as "
for example, "Eric, you must admit that convenience and safety go together."Please, just stop using "save your ass" unless you mean "avoiding physical injury from a glider crash". It's totally unnecessary to use the phrase and leads to confusion about what you mean because you've been using it in the context of safety;
motorglider on their new can, it might just get them out of a deep hole. So, here we are getting into spring around the country and those motorgliders are coming out of the trailers, I am sure that none of them will be late for dinner this year.Eric, SYAG is like putting lipstick on a pig, it is still a pig regardless of how you dress it up. Don't take this thread so serious, Fitch seems to have this discussion in the right frame of mind. I was hoping that Bud Light would have a
the system is helping us keep track of our gliders that are flying our challenging triangles deep into the Everglades.On another note the SSA was very kind to us here on the Treasure Coast and sent John Godfrey over to Fly-In-Ranches, AKA FD25 to install a OGN system that is a nice compliment to soaring activities here in South Florida, thanks John and Davis,
opposed to past years, I guess we must be putting the pressure on the SYAG's!I have flown my Lowly 27 a few times this spring, threaded the needle a few times and made my 5th trip around Lake O, without a motor. It is also important to notice that the SYAG's at Seminole have been flying a few nice triangles this year as
scarce. They encountered a heavily forested stretch with no possibility of land out whatsoever. ALL of them ventured on w/o anyone saying on the radio that this is stupid, or questioning the wisdom of this reckless move. They were just silent. Well, oneThe mango orchard is looking good, the finally needed rain has arrives and the fruit is looking good for a June and July harvest, I will have a box headed your way as soon as they are ready to ship. OBTPA long time ago I listened to Tom Knauff talk about a record flight he had made in the Adriondacks the previous season. At the last stretch of the flight back home he was joined by 3 other gliders. It was late in the day, of course, and lift was
motorglider, the landout is a backup to the motor. If motor failure is on the order of one in a hundred, then you could expect damage in one out of a thousand restarts (10 times 100). A typical pilot will likely never encounter this as I typically do oneLanding out is inherently risky (with the possible exception of a large, flat, plowed field) as you can't possibly see all of the potential hazards from even pattern altitude. One should expect some kind of damage once in every 10 landouts. With a
it means flying so conservatively, I wouldn't have as much fun as I do now. How often do you other motorglider pilots restart? Piston, rotary, jet, electric - I'm interested in replies from all pilots.TomI don't know what the restart rate is for "typical" motorglider pilots, but I restart 5+ times year, and when I flew towed gliders, I'd land away from home a few times a year. I know how to cut that number down to one (or even none, like OBTP), but
Eric, you certainly look at things through rose colored glasses, the only thing about me are my political views and my appreciation for the dollar! You may find many people among this group that know me and have flown with me many times and I am surethey will certainly correct you on the flying of OBTP, who else would roll the Pawnee??? You can go to Soaring Forum Group on Facebook and see it yourself. Old Bob, The Purist
On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 7:20:27 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:Once was during a Seniors event when some guy left an airport area low and was going to rely on the motor and it did not start when called upon and the other there was a malfunction of the engine and it would not start and also resulted in a land out. So
On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 8:34:06 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 4:07:44 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 4:13:14 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Recently, Old Bob the Purist wrote:
"Eric, you must admit that convenience and safety go together. What is interesting is the reliability of the motorglider when needed. I can only recall two instances where the motor did not start when called upon that resulted in land outs.
under pressure to avoid a landout.A motor does not automatically give you safety or convenience. For some pilots, the additional complexity and cost of a motor exceeds the convenience of tows when desired, and for others, that complexity decreases their safety when low and
depends"; for example, the type of motorglider, it's maintenance, and pilot ability can all strongly affect the success of an attempted start in stressful conditions (and knowing you will crash if the engine doesn't start is definitely stressful). TheBut it's good question: just how reliably does a motorglider start? That's a bit like asking "how reliable is the L/D on your glider", because L/D is what most of us depend on to keep us safe during a flight. The answer to both questions is "it
of my motorglider to enhance my soaring experience, as I maintain my safety because I don't count on it starting to "save my ass". You, on the other hand, would gain neither convenience nor safety with a motorglider, unless you change the way you've beenUsing your 98% reliability for starting, I'd expect to have a failed in-flight start about once every 10 years. A crash every 10 years sounds like very poor odds to me! No crashes for me, however, even though I made a lot use of the convenience
must be capable of performing, if you cannot accomplish that objective then you need a motorglider. Even if two stroke engines are less reliable than 98% they offset the purist by whatever percentage you choose to tag them with, remember the purist hasEric, I appreciate the compliment that you gave me about flying without a motor, instead of 5 + years please make it 45+ years. Why do you refer to landing out as crashing??? Landing out is not crashing rather an inevitable event as all PURIST
Lowly 27 and give the Big Dogs a run for their money. Old Bob, The PuristThe pure glider has zero reliability and relies only on sound decision making and pilot performance, we do not have that get me home button, even 50% is better than zero%. Until the time comes that I need a motorglider I will continue to fly my
Say "risking a retrieve", if that's what you mean. The motor counts as a "safety device" only if the pilot intends to fly where it might be required to avoid a landing that will be a crash with glider damage as a minimum, or fatal as a maximum._You_ are the one using the phrase "save your ass safety device", implying the pilot will crash if the engine doesn't start. I do not think landing out rises to the "risking your ass" category, as all of us take that risk when the launch is over.
Safety foundation figures.EricWhile an off airport landing doesn't guarantee a crash, it increases the odds substantially. There is about a 10x increase in chances of damage in a landing off airport, compared to an airport landing. You can quickly calculate this from the Soaring
While the average might be 10X, I'm sure there are large variations, depending on the flying area and the pilot, and those are some reasons we can not conclude the motor is a "safety device". I can't think of any way we can estimate the outcome ofevery pilot being equipped with a motor. I suggest the results might be worse, not better, for a number of reasons. Some are...
* pilots may fly much more aggressively, increasing the number of times they are faced with an outlanding, and the number of failed starts will be larger
* the fields they pick may not be as good as they are now, if they think the motor will save them, increasing the 10x to say 15x or more
* there will be more launch accidents, as the motorglider pilots will not be as experienced as the tow pilots
On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 11:13:54 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:outs. Once was during a Seniors event when some guy left an airport area low and was going to rely on the motor and it did not start when called upon and the other there was a malfunction of the engine and it would not start and also resulted in a land
On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 1:54:10 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 10:40:47 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 4:55:54 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 11:34:06 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 4:07:44 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 4:13:14 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Recently, Old Bob the Purist wrote:
"Eric, you must admit that convenience and safety go together. What is interesting is the reliability of the motorglider when needed. I can only recall two instances where the motor did not start when called upon that resulted in land
and under pressure to avoid a landout.A motor does not automatically give you safety or convenience. For some pilots, the additional complexity and cost of a motor exceeds the convenience of tows when desired, and for others, that complexity decreases their safety when low
is "it depends"; for example, the type of motorglider, it's maintenance, and pilot ability can all strongly affect the success of an attempted start in stressful conditions (and knowing you will crash if the engine doesn't start is definitely stressful).But it's good question: just how reliably does a motorglider start? That's a bit like asking "how reliable is the L/D on your glider", because L/D is what most of us depend on to keep us safe during a flight. The answer to both questions
convenience of my motorglider to enhance my soaring experience, as I maintain my safety because I don't count on it starting to "save my ass". You, on the other hand, would gain neither convenience nor safety with a motorglider, unless you change the wayUsing your 98% reliability for starting, I'd expect to have a failed in-flight start about once every 10 years. A crash every 10 years sounds like very poor odds to me! No crashes for me, however, even though I made a lot use of the
PURIST must be capable of performing, if you cannot accomplish that objective then you need a motorglider. Even if two stroke engines are less reliable than 98% they offset the purist by whatever percentage you choose to tag them with, remember theEric, I appreciate the compliment that you gave me about flying without a motor, instead of 5 + years please make it 45+ years. Why do you refer to landing out as crashing??? Landing out is not crashing rather an inevitable event as all
fly my Lowly 27 and give the Big Dogs a run for their money. Old Bob, The PuristThe pure glider has zero reliability and relies only on sound decision making and pilot performance, we do not have that get me home button, even 50% is better than zero%. Until the time comes that I need a motorglider I will continue to
over. Say "risking a retrieve", if that's what you mean. The motor counts as a "safety device" only if the pilot intends to fly where it might be required to avoid a landing that will be a crash with glider damage as a minimum, or fatal as a maximum._You_ are the one using the phrase "save your ass safety device", implying the pilot will crash if the engine doesn't start. I do not think landing out rises to the "risking your ass" category, as all of us take that risk when the launch is
Save Your Ass Glider". Old Bob, The PuristEricYes, I did use the term, Save Your Ass", only as a reference to enhancing your flight to look better rather than do the manly thing like being a PURIST and dealing with what you are dealt. Maybe I should just use the acronym, SYAG, or AKA as "
for example, "Eric, you must admit that convenience and safety go together."Please, just stop using "save your ass" unless you mean "avoiding physical injury from a glider crash". It's totally unnecessary to use the phrase and leads to confusion about what you mean because you've been using it in the context of safety;
motorglider on their new can, it might just get them out of a deep hole. So, here we are getting into spring around the country and those motorgliders are coming out of the trailers, I am sure that none of them will be late for dinner this year.Eric, SYAG is like putting lipstick on a pig, it is still a pig regardless of how you dress it up. Don't take this thread so serious, Fitch seems to have this discussion in the right frame of mind. I was hoping that Bud Light would have a
system is helping us keep track of our gliders that are flying our challenging triangles deep into the Everglades.On another note the SSA was very kind to us here on the Treasure Coast and sent John Godfrey over to Fly-In-Ranches, AKA FD25 to install a OGN system that is a nice compliment to soaring activities here in South Florida, thanks John and Davis, the
opposed to past years, I guess we must be putting the pressure on the SYAG's!I have flown my Lowly 27 a few times this spring, threaded the needle a few times and made my 5th trip around Lake O, without a motor. It is also important to notice that the SYAG's at Seminole have been flying a few nice triangles this year as
scarce. They encountered a heavily forested stretch with no possibility of land out whatsoever. ALL of them ventured on w/o anyone saying on the radio that this is stupid, or questioning the wisdom of this reckless move. They were just silent. Well, oneThe mango orchard is looking good, the finally needed rain has arrives and the fruit is looking good for a June and July harvest, I will have a box headed your way as soon as they are ready to ship. OBTPA long time ago I listened to Tom Knauff talk about a record flight he had made in the Adriondacks the previous season. At the last stretch of the flight back home he was joined by 3 other gliders. It was late in the day, of course, and lift was
motorglider, the landout is a backup to the motor. If motor failure is on the order of one in a hundred, then you could expect damage in one out of a thousand restarts (10 times 100). A typical pilot will likely never encounter this as I typically do oneLanding out is inherently risky (with the possible exception of a large, flat, plowed field) as you can't possibly see all of the potential hazards from even pattern altitude. One should expect some kind of damage once in every 10 landouts. With a
means flying so conservatively, I wouldn't have as much fun as I do now. How often do you other motorglider pilots restart? Piston, rotary, jet, electric - I'm interested in replies from all pilots.TomI don't know what the restart rate is for "typical" motorglider pilots, but I restart 5+ times year, and when I flew towed gliders, I'd land away from home a few times a year. I know how to cut that number down to one (or even none, like OBTP), but it
On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 11:13:54 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:outs. Once was during a Seniors event when some guy left an airport area low and was going to rely on the motor and it did not start when called upon and the other there was a malfunction of the engine and it would not start and also resulted in a land
On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 1:54:10 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 10:40:47 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 4:55:54 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 11:34:06 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 4:07:44 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 4:13:14 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Recently, Old Bob the Purist wrote:
"Eric, you must admit that convenience and safety go together. What is interesting is the reliability of the motorglider when needed. I can only recall two instances where the motor did not start when called upon that resulted in land
and under pressure to avoid a landout.A motor does not automatically give you safety or convenience. For some pilots, the additional complexity and cost of a motor exceeds the convenience of tows when desired, and for others, that complexity decreases their safety when low
is "it depends"; for example, the type of motorglider, it's maintenance, and pilot ability can all strongly affect the success of an attempted start in stressful conditions (and knowing you will crash if the engine doesn't start is definitely stressful).But it's good question: just how reliably does a motorglider start? That's a bit like asking "how reliable is the L/D on your glider", because L/D is what most of us depend on to keep us safe during a flight. The answer to both questions
convenience of my motorglider to enhance my soaring experience, as I maintain my safety because I don't count on it starting to "save my ass". You, on the other hand, would gain neither convenience nor safety with a motorglider, unless you change the wayUsing your 98% reliability for starting, I'd expect to have a failed in-flight start about once every 10 years. A crash every 10 years sounds like very poor odds to me! No crashes for me, however, even though I made a lot use of the
PURIST must be capable of performing, if you cannot accomplish that objective then you need a motorglider. Even if two stroke engines are less reliable than 98% they offset the purist by whatever percentage you choose to tag them with, remember theEric, I appreciate the compliment that you gave me about flying without a motor, instead of 5 + years please make it 45+ years. Why do you refer to landing out as crashing??? Landing out is not crashing rather an inevitable event as all
fly my Lowly 27 and give the Big Dogs a run for their money. Old Bob, The PuristThe pure glider has zero reliability and relies only on sound decision making and pilot performance, we do not have that get me home button, even 50% is better than zero%. Until the time comes that I need a motorglider I will continue to
over. Say "risking a retrieve", if that's what you mean. The motor counts as a "safety device" only if the pilot intends to fly where it might be required to avoid a landing that will be a crash with glider damage as a minimum, or fatal as a maximum._You_ are the one using the phrase "save your ass safety device", implying the pilot will crash if the engine doesn't start. I do not think landing out rises to the "risking your ass" category, as all of us take that risk when the launch is
Save Your Ass Glider". Old Bob, The PuristEricYes, I did use the term, Save Your Ass", only as a reference to enhancing your flight to look better rather than do the manly thing like being a PURIST and dealing with what you are dealt. Maybe I should just use the acronym, SYAG, or AKA as "
for example, "Eric, you must admit that convenience and safety go together."Please, just stop using "save your ass" unless you mean "avoiding physical injury from a glider crash". It's totally unnecessary to use the phrase and leads to confusion about what you mean because you've been using it in the context of safety;
motorglider on their new can, it might just get them out of a deep hole. So, here we are getting into spring around the country and those motorgliders are coming out of the trailers, I am sure that none of them will be late for dinner this year.Eric, SYAG is like putting lipstick on a pig, it is still a pig regardless of how you dress it up. Don't take this thread so serious, Fitch seems to have this discussion in the right frame of mind. I was hoping that Bud Light would have a
system is helping us keep track of our gliders that are flying our challenging triangles deep into the Everglades.On another note the SSA was very kind to us here on the Treasure Coast and sent John Godfrey over to Fly-In-Ranches, AKA FD25 to install a OGN system that is a nice compliment to soaring activities here in South Florida, thanks John and Davis, the
opposed to past years, I guess we must be putting the pressure on the SYAG's!I have flown my Lowly 27 a few times this spring, threaded the needle a few times and made my 5th trip around Lake O, without a motor. It is also important to notice that the SYAG's at Seminole have been flying a few nice triangles this year as
scarce. They encountered a heavily forested stretch with no possibility of land out whatsoever. ALL of them ventured on w/o anyone saying on the radio that this is stupid, or questioning the wisdom of this reckless move. They were just silent. Well, oneThe mango orchard is looking good, the finally needed rain has arrives and the fruit is looking good for a June and July harvest, I will have a box headed your way as soon as they are ready to ship. OBTPA long time ago I listened to Tom Knauff talk about a record flight he had made in the Adriondacks the previous season. At the last stretch of the flight back home he was joined by 3 other gliders. It was late in the day, of course, and lift was
motorglider, the landout is a backup to the motor. If motor failure is on the order of one in a hundred, then you could expect damage in one out of a thousand restarts (10 times 100). A typical pilot will likely never encounter this as I typically do oneLanding out is inherently risky (with the possible exception of a large, flat, plowed field) as you can't possibly see all of the potential hazards from even pattern altitude. One should expect some kind of damage once in every 10 landouts. With a
means flying so conservatively, I wouldn't have as much fun as I do now. How often do you other motorglider pilots restart? Piston, rotary, jet, electric - I'm interested in replies from all pilots.TomI don't know what the restart rate is for "typical" motorglider pilots, but I restart 5+ times year, and when I flew towed gliders, I'd land away from home a few times a year. I know how to cut that number down to one (or even none, like OBTP), but it
On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 11:50:05 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:outs. Once was during a Seniors event when some guy left an airport area low and was going to rely on the motor and it did not start when called upon and the other there was a malfunction of the engine and it would not start and also resulted in a land
On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 11:13:54 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 1:54:10 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 10:40:47 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 4:55:54 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 11:34:06 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 4:07:44 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 4:13:14 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Recently, Old Bob the Purist wrote:
"Eric, you must admit that convenience and safety go together. What is interesting is the reliability of the motorglider when needed. I can only recall two instances where the motor did not start when called upon that resulted in land
and under pressure to avoid a landout.A motor does not automatically give you safety or convenience. For some pilots, the additional complexity and cost of a motor exceeds the convenience of tows when desired, and for others, that complexity decreases their safety when low
questions is "it depends"; for example, the type of motorglider, it's maintenance, and pilot ability can all strongly affect the success of an attempted start in stressful conditions (and knowing you will crash if the engine doesn't start is definitelyBut it's good question: just how reliably does a motorglider start? That's a bit like asking "how reliable is the L/D on your glider", because L/D is what most of us depend on to keep us safe during a flight. The answer to both
convenience of my motorglider to enhance my soaring experience, as I maintain my safety because I don't count on it starting to "save my ass". You, on the other hand, would gain neither convenience nor safety with a motorglider, unless you change the wayUsing your 98% reliability for starting, I'd expect to have a failed in-flight start about once every 10 years. A crash every 10 years sounds like very poor odds to me! No crashes for me, however, even though I made a lot use of the
PURIST must be capable of performing, if you cannot accomplish that objective then you need a motorglider. Even if two stroke engines are less reliable than 98% they offset the purist by whatever percentage you choose to tag them with, remember theEric, I appreciate the compliment that you gave me about flying without a motor, instead of 5 + years please make it 45+ years. Why do you refer to landing out as crashing??? Landing out is not crashing rather an inevitable event as all
fly my Lowly 27 and give the Big Dogs a run for their money. Old Bob, The PuristThe pure glider has zero reliability and relies only on sound decision making and pilot performance, we do not have that get me home button, even 50% is better than zero%. Until the time comes that I need a motorglider I will continue to
over. Say "risking a retrieve", if that's what you mean. The motor counts as a "safety device" only if the pilot intends to fly where it might be required to avoid a landing that will be a crash with glider damage as a minimum, or fatal as a maximum._You_ are the one using the phrase "save your ass safety device", implying the pilot will crash if the engine doesn't start. I do not think landing out rises to the "risking your ass" category, as all of us take that risk when the launch is
Save Your Ass Glider". Old Bob, The PuristEricYes, I did use the term, Save Your Ass", only as a reference to enhancing your flight to look better rather than do the manly thing like being a PURIST and dealing with what you are dealt. Maybe I should just use the acronym, SYAG, or AKA as "
for example, "Eric, you must admit that convenience and safety go together."Please, just stop using "save your ass" unless you mean "avoiding physical injury from a glider crash". It's totally unnecessary to use the phrase and leads to confusion about what you mean because you've been using it in the context of safety;
motorglider on their new can, it might just get them out of a deep hole. So, here we are getting into spring around the country and those motorgliders are coming out of the trailers, I am sure that none of them will be late for dinner this year.Eric, SYAG is like putting lipstick on a pig, it is still a pig regardless of how you dress it up. Don't take this thread so serious, Fitch seems to have this discussion in the right frame of mind. I was hoping that Bud Light would have a
the system is helping us keep track of our gliders that are flying our challenging triangles deep into the Everglades.On another note the SSA was very kind to us here on the Treasure Coast and sent John Godfrey over to Fly-In-Ranches, AKA FD25 to install a OGN system that is a nice compliment to soaring activities here in South Florida, thanks John and Davis,
opposed to past years, I guess we must be putting the pressure on the SYAG's!I have flown my Lowly 27 a few times this spring, threaded the needle a few times and made my 5th trip around Lake O, without a motor. It is also important to notice that the SYAG's at Seminole have been flying a few nice triangles this year as
scarce. They encountered a heavily forested stretch with no possibility of land out whatsoever. ALL of them ventured on w/o anyone saying on the radio that this is stupid, or questioning the wisdom of this reckless move. They were just silent. Well, oneThe mango orchard is looking good, the finally needed rain has arrives and the fruit is looking good for a June and July harvest, I will have a box headed your way as soon as they are ready to ship. OBTPA long time ago I listened to Tom Knauff talk about a record flight he had made in the Adriondacks the previous season. At the last stretch of the flight back home he was joined by 3 other gliders. It was late in the day, of course, and lift was
motorglider, the landout is a backup to the motor. If motor failure is on the order of one in a hundred, then you could expect damage in one out of a thousand restarts (10 times 100). A typical pilot will likely never encounter this as I typically do oneLanding out is inherently risky (with the possible exception of a large, flat, plowed field) as you can't possibly see all of the potential hazards from even pattern altitude. One should expect some kind of damage once in every 10 landouts. With a
it means flying so conservatively, I wouldn't have as much fun as I do now. How often do you other motorglider pilots restart? Piston, rotary, jet, electric - I'm interested in replies from all pilots.TomI don't know what the restart rate is for "typical" motorglider pilots, but I restart 5+ times year, and when I flew towed gliders, I'd land away from home a few times a year. I know how to cut that number down to one (or even none, like OBTP), but
This is my 23rd year with the motorglider, I think I have restarted (to avoid an away-from-home landing) 6 times. All of them over the pattern of a large airport listed on the sectional. Yes I fly conservatively, but I go the same places others go, Ijust stay higher. I started it maybe 10 or 12 times in that 23 years to avoid a relight, usually before the engine is even stowed. It has failed to start exactly once, first start after winter layup on the ground.
One thing about motorgliders is they are more complex than towed gliders, and require perhaps 3 or 4x the maintenance. In my experience glider pilots - many of them at least - are not very good at maintenance. That makes those pilots possibly dangerousin a motorglider, certainly if they are depending on the engine.
On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 12:07:58 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:...
Soaring Safety foundation figures.While an off airport landing doesn't guarantee a crash, it increases the odds substantially. There is about a 10x increase in chances of damage in a landing off airport, compared to an airport landing. You can quickly calculate this from the
every pilot being equipped with a motor. I suggest the results might be worse, not better, for a number of reasons. Some are...While the average might be 10X, I'm sure there are large variations, depending on the flying area and the pilot, and those are some reasons we can not conclude the motor is a "safety device". I can't think of any way we can estimate the outcome of
killed by a kiting glider but know of NO motorglider pilots killed during the launch.* pilots may fly much more aggressively, increasing the number of times they are faced with an outlanding, and the number of failed starts will be largerI don't have hard data to back this up, just personal experiences and those of others. Obviously there can be a great variation between pilots and where they fly.
* the fields they pick may not be as good as they are now, if they think the motor will save them, increasing the 10x to say 15x or moreThat is totally unsupported. Many motorglider pilots ARE also tow pilots, as well as airline and military pilots. A towed glider launch is inherently more complex and hazardous than a motorglider launch. I know of several tow pilots who have been
* there will be more launch accidents, as the motorglider pilots will not be as experienced as the tow pilots
TomMy list described pilots who are _not_ motorglider pilots now. The demographics of these pilots is likely younger and less experienced in all aircraft, compared to current motorglider pilots.
On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 11:50:05 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:...
On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 11:13:54 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
it means flying so conservatively, I wouldn't have as much fun as I do now. How often do you other motorglider pilots restart? Piston, rotary, jet, electric - I'm interested in replies from all pilots.I don't know what the restart rate is for "typical" motorglider pilots, but I restart 5+ times year, and when I flew towed gliders, I'd land away from home a few times a year. I know how to cut that number down to one (or even none, like OBTP), but
I was referring only to away-from-airport restarts where the only other option is an off-field landing. I probably also restart half a dozen times near the airport.My numbers are for all restarts away from the home airport: most are over an airport, perhaps two a year over a field.
Tom
On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 5:15:40 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:it means flying so conservatively, I wouldn't have as much fun as I do now. How often do you other motorglider pilots restart? Piston, rotary, jet, electric - I'm interested in replies from all pilots.
On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 11:50:05 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:...
On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 11:13:54 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
I don't know what the restart rate is for "typical" motorglider pilots, but I restart 5+ times year, and when I flew towed gliders, I'd land away from home a few times a year. I know how to cut that number down to one (or even none, like OBTP), but
Eric, there is no doubt about the safety of a motorglider vs a towed glider, the SYAG offers a safety factor just by the engine itself that the towed glider does not have. The only exception to this would be the sustainer SYAG and not the self launch.I was referring only to away-from-airport restarts where the only other option is an off-field landing. I probably also restart half a dozen times near the airport.
TomMy numbers are for all restarts away from the home airport: most are over an airport, perhaps two a year over a field.
On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 11:53:34 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:but it means flying so conservatively, I wouldn't have as much fun as I do now. How often do you other motorglider pilots restart? Piston, rotary, jet, electric - I'm interested in replies from all pilots.
On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 5:15:40 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 11:50:05 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:...
On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 11:13:54 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
I don't know what the restart rate is for "typical" motorglider pilots, but I restart 5+ times year, and when I flew towed gliders, I'd land away from home a few times a year. I know how to cut that number down to one (or even none, like OBTP),
The sustainer still relies on a tow whether it is aero, winch or auto, and that in an of itself is much more challenging than a self launch. As a past tow pilot you should certainly be cognizant of the possible issues during towing, especially having aI was referring only to away-from-airport restarts where the only other option is an off-field landing. I probably also restart half a dozen times near the airport.
Eric, there is no doubt about the safety of a motorglider vs a towed glider, the SYAG offers a safety factor just by the engine itself that the towed glider does not have. The only exception to this would be the sustainer SYAG and not the self launch.TomMy numbers are for all restarts away from the home airport: most are over an airport, perhaps two a year over a field.
I have watched self launch SYAG's take off and get airborne and it has been quiet impressive in most cases unless the SYAG has a solo engine especially in a duel seat, those dinosaurs are to say the least quiet anemic.I think we need a nice acronym for the motorless towed gliders, as a counterpoint to Old Bob's SYAG. How about SG for Suicide Glider? After all, in one of those things, what do you do when the wind quits? And aren't you depending on a (minimum) 50 year
I would really like to ask the question about motorglider accidents and if the motorglider pilot was so much more experienced than other glider pilots do the accident numbers reflect that? Old Bob, The Purist
Here is a spreadsheet with narrative details of 21 motorglider accidents involving engine reliability/performance problems in the last 14 years:Stated more properly, misplaced pilot expectations of engine reliability/performance issues contribute to 28% of motorglider accidents. "One must always be prepared for the possibility that the engine will not provide the hoped for propulsion". Verbatim
https://www.milletsoftware.com/Download/Motor_Glider_Accidents_with_Engine_Problems_2008_2022.xlsx
I extracted the data from my USA glider accident web pivot charts at: https://www.milletsoftware.com/Data/Glider_Events.html
In total, there were 75 motorglider accidents during that time frame.
So engine reliability/performance issues make up 28% of motorglider accidents.
On Sunday, April 16, 2023 at 10:18:03 AM UTC-7, Ido Millet wrote:Verbatim from the ASH operator's manual. In your research, did you find many cases (or even one) of the presence of an engine by itself directly causing an accident? I know of none. On the other hand, I have has several friends die or nearly die in a SG,
Here is a spreadsheet with narrative details of 21 motorglider accidents involving engine reliability/performance problems in the last 14 years:
https://www.milletsoftware.com/Download/Motor_Glider_Accidents_with_Engine_Problems_2008_2022.xlsx
I extracted the data from my USA glider accident web pivot charts at: https://www.milletsoftware.com/Data/Glider_Events.html
In total, there were 75 motorglider accidents during that time frame.Stated more properly, misplaced pilot expectations of engine reliability/performance issues contribute to 28% of motorglider accidents. "One must always be prepared for the possibility that the engine will not provide the hoped for propulsion".
So engine reliability/performance issues make up 28% of motorglider accidents.
On Sunday, April 16, 2023 at 1:32:01 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:Verbatim from the ASH operator's manual. In your research, did you find many cases (or even one) of the presence of an engine by itself directly causing an accident? I know of none. On the other hand, I have has several friends die or nearly die in a SG,
On Sunday, April 16, 2023 at 10:18:03 AM UTC-7, Ido Millet wrote:
Here is a spreadsheet with narrative details of 21 motorglider accidents involving engine reliability/performance problems in the last 14 years:
https://www.milletsoftware.com/Download/Motor_Glider_Accidents_with_Engine_Problems_2008_2022.xlsx
I extracted the data from my USA glider accident web pivot charts at: https://www.milletsoftware.com/Data/Glider_Events.html
In total, there were 75 motorglider accidents during that time frame.Stated more properly, misplaced pilot expectations of engine reliability/performance issues contribute to 28% of motorglider accidents. "One must always be prepared for the possibility that the engine will not provide the hoped for propulsion".
So engine reliability/performance issues make up 28% of motorglider accidents.
Fitch, I would love to sit at the bar and have a few drinks with you, we would both walk away with an appreciation for each other. Eric continues to berate my flights into the swamp and always thinks that I make it back home, it is not true, he justoverlooks things, something I would not expect from an engineer like Eric. That 28% is a big number, us purist could never reach 28%, we could not even reach 1%, so that puts is a a much better class of statistics than the SYAG guys.
Hope things are good up there in the liberal land, things down here in Trump land are quiet well. Old Bob, The PuristOld Bob, 28% is a big number compared to what? 28% of what? What I do know is that 100% of SG crash because they don't have a motor. Prove me wrong: every one that crashes doesn't have a motor. Giving a percent probability without citing the reference
On Sunday, April 16, 2023 at 1:33:22 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:Verbatim from the ASH operator's manual. In your research, did you find many cases (or even one) of the presence of an engine by itself directly causing an accident? I know of none. On the other hand, I have has several friends die or nearly die in a SG,
On Sunday, April 16, 2023 at 1:32:01 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Sunday, April 16, 2023 at 10:18:03 AM UTC-7, Ido Millet wrote:
Here is a spreadsheet with narrative details of 21 motorglider accidents involving engine reliability/performance problems in the last 14 years:
https://www.milletsoftware.com/Download/Motor_Glider_Accidents_with_Engine_Problems_2008_2022.xlsx
I extracted the data from my USA glider accident web pivot charts at: https://www.milletsoftware.com/Data/Glider_Events.html
In total, there were 75 motorglider accidents during that time frame. So engine reliability/performance issues make up 28% of motorglider accidents.Stated more properly, misplaced pilot expectations of engine reliability/performance issues contribute to 28% of motorglider accidents. "One must always be prepared for the possibility that the engine will not provide the hoped for propulsion".
overlooks things, something I would not expect from an engineer like Eric. That 28% is a big number, us purist could never reach 28%, we could not even reach 1%, so that puts is a a much better class of statistics than the SYAG guys.Fitch, I would love to sit at the bar and have a few drinks with you, we would both walk away with an appreciation for each other. Eric continues to berate my flights into the swamp and always thinks that I make it back home, it is not true, he just
class is a favorite of serial statistical liars, most notably the pharmaceutical industry and politicians.Hope things are good up there in the liberal land, things down here in Trump land are quiet well. Old Bob, The PuristOld Bob, 28% is a big number compared to what? 28% of what? What I do know is that 100% of SG crash because they don't have a motor. Prove me wrong: every one that crashes doesn't have a motor. Giving a percent probability without citing the reference
I'll drink a beer with you but not in steamy Florida, land of DeSantis. I'm currently enjoying 41 deg and rain, here in the lib PNW.Perfectly legit statement, if a pure glider crashes then it doesn't have a motor, true! Not having a motor is not the cause of the crash, just a factual statement something like , "It Crashed Without a Motor".
On Sunday, April 16, 2023 at 10:18:03 AM UTC-7, Ido Millet wrote:Verbatim from the ASH operator's manual. In your research, did you find many cases (or even one) of the presence of an engine by itself directly causing an accident? I know of none. On the other hand, I have has several friends die or nearly die in a SG,
Here is a spreadsheet with narrative details of 21 motorglider accidents involving engine reliability/performance problems in the last 14 years:
https://www.milletsoftware.com/Download/Motor_Glider_Accidents_with_Engine_Problems_2008_2022.xlsx
I extracted the data from my USA glider accident web pivot charts at: https://www.milletsoftware.com/Data/Glider_Events.html
In total, there were 75 motorglider accidents during that time frame.Stated more properly, misplaced pilot expectations of engine reliability/performance issues contribute to 28% of motorglider accidents. "One must always be prepared for the possibility that the engine will not provide the hoped for propulsion".
So engine reliability/performance issues make up 28% of motorglider accidents.
On Sunday, April 16, 2023 at 10:32:01 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:Verbatim from the ASH operator's manual. In your research, did you find many cases (or even one) of the presence of an engine by itself directly causing an accident? I know of none. On the other hand, I have has several friends die or nearly die in a SG,
On Sunday, April 16, 2023 at 10:18:03 AM UTC-7, Ido Millet wrote:
Here is a spreadsheet with narrative details of 21 motorglider accidents involving engine reliability/performance problems in the last 14 years:
https://www.milletsoftware.com/Download/Motor_Glider_Accidents_with_Engine_Problems_2008_2022.xlsx
I extracted the data from my USA glider accident web pivot charts at: https://www.milletsoftware.com/Data/Glider_Events.html
In total, there were 75 motorglider accidents during that time frame.Stated more properly, misplaced pilot expectations of engine reliability/performance issues contribute to 28% of motorglider accidents. "One must always be prepared for the possibility that the engine will not provide the hoped for propulsion".
So engine reliability/performance issues make up 28% of motorglider accidents.
I reviewed every MG accident listed in this compilation and found that the vast majority of cases to be pilot error. A couple were the direct result of bad maintenance. And a couple more involved home-builts, which are not relevant to this discussion.well-maintained Pawnees.
It is extremely important to recognize that engines are only a CONVENIENCE, and should not be viewed as a LIFE-SAVING DEVICE. Motors (even electric ones) sometimes don't start, although they do 99+% of the time (if properly maintained). This includes
Case 1: "attempted an emergency landing in rocky, hilly terrain"approximately 1,000 feet, the pilot raised the engine and attempted to start it. He received a battery warning indication in the cockpit and was unable to start the engine with the electrical system. The pilot selected a field for landing, but continued
Conclusion: Pilot error
Case 2: "Lacking the altitude to return to the airport, the pilot chose a road for a forced landing."
Conclusion: Pilot error
Case 3: "There were about 2 ounces of oil drained from the oil bath reservoir. "
Conclusion: Pilot error
Case 4: " The inspection did reveal damage to the cylinder walls" Conclusion: Undetected engine damage
Case 5: "The pilot departed in the self-launching motorized glider for the local flight. He stated that it was a smooth day with no lift, and he had to use the engine several times in order to stay aloft. While returning to the departure airport, at
Conclusion: Pilot errorroom for other gliders to depart."
Case 6: "A witness reported that the motorglider engine did not sound normal during the preflight run-up and takeoff. The engine subsequently lost power when the aircraft was about 200 feet above ground level."
Conclusion: Pilot error
Case 7: "Using the taxiway as the runway, the pilot of the self-launching motor glider began the takeoff; however, the glider did not gain sufficient airspeed to depart. The pilot elected to continue the ground roll to an overrun area in order to give
Conclusion: Pilot errorwind was not conducive to convective activity, and the glider started to descend. The pilot turned back toward the airport and extended the engine/propeller to restart the engine; however, the engine would not start. The pilot entered the downwind leg of
Case 8: "The pilot reported that on the day of the accident the weather was marginal, with low clouds and shifting wind. He took off in the motorized glider and then stowed the engine. About 1 mile northwest of the airport, the pilot realized that the
Conclusion: Pilot errorlanding to a field. A postaccident examination of the aircraft revealed that the flexible disk on the front of the driveshaft had disconnected. Only one of the three bolts that connected the disk to the driveshaft remained partially installed. No
Case 9: "The pilot reported that the motor-glider was on a long, straight-in visual approach to land when he heard a very loud 'bang' in the front of the motor-glider followed by a severe vibration. The pilot shut down the engine and made a forced
A review of maintenance records revealed that the motor-glider's most recent annual inspection was completed about 1 month before the accident. According to the manufacturer's maintenance manual, a mechanic was required to check the tightness of thebolt connections of the flexible disk on the front side of the drive shaft. It is likely that the mechanic improperly inspected the bolts that connected the flexible joint to the front side of the driveshaft during the last annual inspection, which
The maintenance records also revealed that, during the last annual inspection, Federal Aviation Administration Airworthiness Directive (AD) 2006-19-08, which required inspection for deformations and cracks in the exhaust pipes and the replacement ofany damaged exhaust pipes found, had not been properly complied with when a weld repair was made to the No. 1 exhaust pipe. The mechanic's failure to not properly comply with the AD and the operator's failure to ensure that the AD was complied with were
Conclusion: Improper maintenanceunsuccessful. The pilot set up for landing to a field. He did not see power lines bordering the approach end of the field, and the motor glider impacted the power lines and then descended to the ground in a nose-down attitude.
Case 10: "About 20 miles from the departure airport, the motor glider began losing altitude due to a loss of thermal lift, and the pilot then prepared for an off-airport landing. He deployed the retractable engine and attempted to start it but was
Conclusion: Pilot errordraining from the right tank. The fuel remaining in the left fuel tank was not adequate to complete the planned flight. The pilot chose to divert to a closer airport, and while he was preparing to land, the engine lost power. The pilot performed a forced
Case 11: "The commercial pilot was conducting a personal cross-country flight. The pilot reported that, while en route to the destination airport, he noted that the right tank's fuel level was not changing and that it did not appear that fuel was
Conclusion: Pilot error and this involved a TMG (touring motorglider)identified a nearby field for landing in case the engine did not start. As the glider overflew the field, the pilot extended the propeller and attempted three times to start the engine; however, it did not start. With limited altitude, increased drag
Case 12: "The sport pilot of the experimental, amateur-built motorglider" Conclusion: Home built glider - not relevant
Case 13: "After gliding for about 2 ½ hours cross-country, the motorglider began to encounter reduced lift conditions. The private pilot intended to start the engine so that he could return to the departure airport under powered flight but also
Conclusion: Pilot errorpower. The pilot switched fuel tanks with no improvement and selected a nearby road for a forced landing. During the landing roll on the ice-covered road, the glider's left wing impacted a bush, and the glider exited the road; the nosewheel broke off
Case 14: "The airline transport pilot was conducting a local flight in his motor-powered glider. The pilot had the right fuel tank selected and was flying in a counterclockwise direction around a ground reference point when the engine began to lose
Based on the available data, it is likely the fuel unported during the glider's climbing turn, which resulted in fuel starvation and the loss of engine power.glider touched down, but the ground was slightly uneven, which resulted in the right wing dragging. The glider veered 20° to the right before coming to rest.
Conclusion: Pilot error and TMG (not relevant)
Case 15: "He reported that, about 4 miles from the airport, the glider began to sink about 1,000 ft per minute. He attempted to restart the engine but was unsuccessful in the limited time available. He chose a field for an off-airport landing, the
The glider sustained substantial damage to the horizontal stabilizer and elevator.started the sustainer engine. He added that, after the glider climbed back to the initial altitude, he shut the sustainer engine off, stowed it, and continued to the destination airport.
Conclusion: Pilot error - attempted a restart at too low of an altitude. Case 16: "The airline transport pilot reported that, during a cross-country flight and while climbing toward a mountain pass, the experimental, amateur-built motorglider's engine began to overheat."
Conclusion: Home-built, irrelevant
Case 17: "The powered-glider pilot reported that, during the return flight to the airport after an informal glider competition, about 10,000 to 11,000 ft over mountainous terrain, he was unable to find lift, the glider descended to 9,000 ft, and he
Conclusion: WTF! This is expected behavior!!the motor glider stopped, the pilot noticed flames below the right door; the flames grew and eventually consumed and destroyed the airplane. Postaccident examination of the wreckage revealed that the exhaust manifold had various cracks on the tubing.
Case 18: "The private pilot of a motor glider was taking off when he noticed the engine sounded 'a little rough'; as he turned downwind, he started to smell smoke. He reported that he shut down the engine and returned for an uneventful landing. When
Conclusion: Improper maintenanceelectric motor, but it produced “no thrust.” The glider continued to descend and impacted a house about 2 miles from the airport, resulting in substantial damage. The pilot reported that there were no mechanical failures or malfunctions with the
Case 19: "The pilot was conducting a personal flight in an electrically-powered, self-launching motor glider. He stated that, while returning to the departure airport at the conclusion of the flight, the glider encountered sink and he turned on the
Conclusion: Pilot erroroperation at the time of impact."
Case 20: "The pilot subsequently made a forced landing and the airplane impacted a fence about 1.5 miles short of the runway. The glider sustained substantial damage.
Postaccident examination of the glider revealed that both propeller blades and the propeller control knob were in the feathered position. Examination of the engine and airplane revealed no mechanical deficiencies that would have precluded normal
Conclusion: Pilot error and a TMGbrown, flat, field that appeared to be recently tilled. The pilot set up for a landing, and then deployed the glider's sustainer engine. The engine did not start, so he continued his approach to land. During the landing, the right wing struck the ground,
Case 21: "The pilot, who is also the designer and builder of the experimental motorglider"
Conclusion: Home-built, irrelevant
Case 22: "After departing on a local flight, the pilot of the motor glider crossed a ridge line into a valley at an altitude of about 8,000 ft mean sea level, and then glided to the south in search of lift, but was unsuccessful. He decided to land on a
Conclusion: Pilot errorI note that in 12 of the 22 cases cited, the crash was the result of a bad choice of off field landing site, or a poorly executed off field landing. The engine was only incidental. This could (and does) happen in an SG as well. One can argue that the
2G, you seem to summarized the data in a somewhat "selective" way.fuel starvation and the loss of engine power.
For example, you state "Case 1: "attempted an emergency landing in rocky, hilly terrain."
The complete sentence is: "pilot was unable to restart the engine and attempted an emergency landing in rocky, hilly terrain."
Perhaps the following can serve as a less "selective" summary: ______________________________________________________________
1 The private pilot was unable to restart the engine and attempted an emergency landing in rocky, hilly terrain.
2 The pilot of the powered glider stated that about 30 seconds after takeoff, about 170 feet above the ground, the engine rpm decreased.
3 ... in cruise flight at 1,800 feet when the motorized glider experienced a total loss of engine power. He attempted an engine restart with negative results and made a forced landing.
4 ...experienced a partial loss of engine power on takeoff and landed hard while attempting a go around.
5 ...received a battery warning indication in the cockpit and was unable to start the engine with the electrical system.
6 The engine subsequently lost power when the aircraft was about 200 feet above ground level.
7 the pilot of the self-launching motor glider began the takeoff; however, the glider did not gain sufficient airspeed to depart.
8 The pilot turned back toward the airport and extended the engine/propeller to restart the engine; however, the engine would not start.
9 ...heard a very loud 'bang' in the front of the motor-glider followed by a severe vibration. The pilot shut down the engine and made a forced landing to a field.
10 He deployed the retractable engine and attempted to start it but was unsuccessful.
11 ...while he was preparing to land, the engine lost power.
12 after takeoff, the primary engine experienced a total loss of power about 75 ft above ground level, and the secondary engine was unable to maintain the motorglider's altitude.
13 As the glider overflew the field, the pilot extended the propeller and attempted three times to start the engine; however, it did not start.
14 The pilot had the right fuel tank selected and was flying in a counterclockwise direction around a ground reference point when the engine began to lose power. ...it is likely the fuel unported during the glider's climbing turn, which resulted in
15 ...while climbing toward a mountain pass, the experimental, amateur-built motorglider's engine began to overheat. The pilot delayed the climb to allow the engine to cool down and continued toward the pass, which resulted in reduced terrain clearance.As the motorglider approached the pass, it encountered a downdraft, and the engine was unable to produce enough power to stop the descent.
16 ... 4 miles from the airport, the glider began to sink about 1,000 ft per minute. He attempted to restart the engine but was unsuccessful in the limited time available.noticed flames below the right door; the flames grew and eventually consumed and destroyed the airplane.
17 ... was taking off when he noticed the engine sounded 'a little rough'; as he turned downwind, he started to smell smoke. He reported that he shut down the engine and returned for an uneventful landing. When the motor glider stopped, the pilot
18 the glider encountered sink and he turned on the electric motor, but it produced “no thrust.”engine again lost power from 6,500 rpm to approximately 4,300 rpm.
19 The engine started but was not producing the expected power. The pilot thought he had a fuel problem and was not aware that the propeller was still in a feathered condition.
20 The pilot, who is also the designer and builder of the experimental motorglider, was making his second flight after having completed a number of high-speed taxi tests ... On the accident flight, immediately after takeoff, the pusher-configuration
21 The pilot set up for a landing, and then deployed the glider's sustainer engine. The engine did not start, …
__________________________________________________________________
Asking "who's at fault: the pilot or the engine?" does not address the subject of this thread: "Are motorgliders safer than towed gliders?"
We can't answer that question with certainty. But we shouldn't ignore anecdotal data that points to the need for extra vigilance.
Well, you could look at accident RATES rather than NUMBERS. I would betfuel starvation and the loss of engine power.
the rates are higher for motor gliders but I'd also bet that the higher numbers are due to higher complexity and, possibly, pilots who are not always capable of handling the additional complexity.
I currently own a motor glider which I've flown almost 1,000 hours and previously six pure gliders. I have not had an accident in any of them
so, by applying a lot of the "logic" which is so prevalent on this
group, they are of equal "safety".
Dan
5J
On 4/19/23 12:06, Ido Millet wrote:
2G, you seem to summarized the data in a somewhat "selective" way.
For example, you state "Case 1: "attempted an emergency landing in rocky, hilly terrain."
The complete sentence is: "pilot was unable to restart the engine and attempted an emergency landing in rocky, hilly terrain."
Perhaps the following can serve as a less "selective" summary: ______________________________________________________________
1 The private pilot was unable to restart the engine and attempted an emergency landing in rocky, hilly terrain.
2 The pilot of the powered glider stated that about 30 seconds after takeoff, about 170 feet above the ground, the engine rpm decreased.
3 ... in cruise flight at 1,800 feet when the motorized glider experienced a total loss of engine power. He attempted an engine restart with negative results and made a forced landing.
4 ...experienced a partial loss of engine power on takeoff and landed hard while attempting a go around.
5 ...received a battery warning indication in the cockpit and was unable to start the engine with the electrical system.
6 The engine subsequently lost power when the aircraft was about 200 feet above ground level.
7 the pilot of the self-launching motor glider began the takeoff; however, the glider did not gain sufficient airspeed to depart.
8 The pilot turned back toward the airport and extended the engine/propeller to restart the engine; however, the engine would not start.
9 ...heard a very loud 'bang' in the front of the motor-glider followed by a severe vibration. The pilot shut down the engine and made a forced landing to a field.
10 He deployed the retractable engine and attempted to start it but was unsuccessful.
11 ...while he was preparing to land, the engine lost power.
12 after takeoff, the primary engine experienced a total loss of power about 75 ft above ground level, and the secondary engine was unable to maintain the motorglider's altitude.
13 As the glider overflew the field, the pilot extended the propeller and attempted three times to start the engine; however, it did not start.
14 The pilot had the right fuel tank selected and was flying in a counterclockwise direction around a ground reference point when the engine began to lose power. ...it is likely the fuel unported during the glider's climbing turn, which resulted in
clearance. As the motorglider approached the pass, it encountered a downdraft, and the engine was unable to produce enough power to stop the descent.15 ...while climbing toward a mountain pass, the experimental, amateur-built motorglider's engine began to overheat. The pilot delayed the climb to allow the engine to cool down and continued toward the pass, which resulted in reduced terrain
noticed flames below the right door; the flames grew and eventually consumed and destroyed the airplane.16 ... 4 miles from the airport, the glider began to sink about 1,000 ft per minute. He attempted to restart the engine but was unsuccessful in the limited time available.
17 ... was taking off when he noticed the engine sounded 'a little rough'; as he turned downwind, he started to smell smoke. He reported that he shut down the engine and returned for an uneventful landing. When the motor glider stopped, the pilot
engine again lost power from 6,500 rpm to approximately 4,300 rpm.18 the glider encountered sink and he turned on the electric motor, but it produced “no thrust.”
19 The engine started but was not producing the expected power. The pilot thought he had a fuel problem and was not aware that the propeller was still in a feathered condition.
20 The pilot, who is also the designer and builder of the experimental motorglider, was making his second flight after having completed a number of high-speed taxi tests ... On the accident flight, immediately after takeoff, the pusher-configuration
21 The pilot set up for a landing, and then deployed the glider's sustainer engine. The engine did not start, …
__________________________________________________________________
Asking "who's at fault: the pilot or the engine?" does not address the subject of this thread: "Are motorgliders safer than towed gliders?"
We can't answer that question with certainty. But we shouldn't ignore anecdotal data that points to the need for extra vigilance.
On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 11:24:17 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:fuel starvation and the loss of engine power.
Well, you could look at accident RATES rather than NUMBERS. I would bet the rates are higher for motor gliders but I'd also bet that the higher numbers are due to higher complexity and, possibly, pilots who are not always capable of handling the additional complexity.
I currently own a motor glider which I've flown almost 1,000 hours and previously six pure gliders. I have not had an accident in any of them
so, by applying a lot of the "logic" which is so prevalent on this
group, they are of equal "safety".
Dan
5J
On 4/19/23 12:06, Ido Millet wrote:
2G, you seem to summarized the data in a somewhat "selective" way.
For example, you state "Case 1: "attempted an emergency landing in rocky, hilly terrain."
The complete sentence is: "pilot was unable to restart the engine and attempted an emergency landing in rocky, hilly terrain."
Perhaps the following can serve as a less "selective" summary: ______________________________________________________________
1 The private pilot was unable to restart the engine and attempted an emergency landing in rocky, hilly terrain.
2 The pilot of the powered glider stated that about 30 seconds after takeoff, about 170 feet above the ground, the engine rpm decreased.
3 ... in cruise flight at 1,800 feet when the motorized glider experienced a total loss of engine power. He attempted an engine restart with negative results and made a forced landing.
4 ...experienced a partial loss of engine power on takeoff and landed hard while attempting a go around.
5 ...received a battery warning indication in the cockpit and was unable to start the engine with the electrical system.
6 The engine subsequently lost power when the aircraft was about 200 feet above ground level.
7 the pilot of the self-launching motor glider began the takeoff; however, the glider did not gain sufficient airspeed to depart.
8 The pilot turned back toward the airport and extended the engine/propeller to restart the engine; however, the engine would not start.
9 ...heard a very loud 'bang' in the front of the motor-glider followed by a severe vibration. The pilot shut down the engine and made a forced landing to a field.
10 He deployed the retractable engine and attempted to start it but was unsuccessful.
11 ...while he was preparing to land, the engine lost power.
12 after takeoff, the primary engine experienced a total loss of power about 75 ft above ground level, and the secondary engine was unable to maintain the motorglider's altitude.
13 As the glider overflew the field, the pilot extended the propeller and attempted three times to start the engine; however, it did not start.
14 The pilot had the right fuel tank selected and was flying in a counterclockwise direction around a ground reference point when the engine began to lose power. ...it is likely the fuel unported during the glider's climbing turn, which resulted in
clearance. As the motorglider approached the pass, it encountered a downdraft, and the engine was unable to produce enough power to stop the descent.15 ...while climbing toward a mountain pass, the experimental, amateur-built motorglider's engine began to overheat. The pilot delayed the climb to allow the engine to cool down and continued toward the pass, which resulted in reduced terrain
noticed flames below the right door; the flames grew and eventually consumed and destroyed the airplane.16 ... 4 miles from the airport, the glider began to sink about 1,000 ft per minute. He attempted to restart the engine but was unsuccessful in the limited time available.
17 ... was taking off when he noticed the engine sounded 'a little rough'; as he turned downwind, he started to smell smoke. He reported that he shut down the engine and returned for an uneventful landing. When the motor glider stopped, the pilot
configuration engine again lost power from 6,500 rpm to approximately 4,300 rpm.18 the glider encountered sink and he turned on the electric motor, but it produced “no thrust.”
19 The engine started but was not producing the expected power. The pilot thought he had a fuel problem and was not aware that the propeller was still in a feathered condition.
20 The pilot, who is also the designer and builder of the experimental motorglider, was making his second flight after having completed a number of high-speed taxi tests ... On the accident flight, immediately after takeoff, the pusher-
21 The pilot set up for a landing, and then deployed the glider's sustainer engine. The engine did not start, …
__________________________________________________________________
When someone pontificates and includes the words "I will bet" I immediately know that what they have to say is worthless and that they have done ZERO research to back up their opinion.Asking "who's at fault: the pilot or the engine?" does not address the subject of this thread: "Are motorgliders safer than towed gliders?"
We can't answer that question with certainty. But we shouldn't ignore anecdotal data that points to the need for extra vigilance.
Tom
2G, you seem to summarized the data in a somewhat "selective" way.fuel starvation and the loss of engine power.
For example, you state "Case 1: "attempted an emergency landing in rocky, hilly terrain."
The complete sentence is: "pilot was unable to restart the engine and attempted an emergency landing in rocky, hilly terrain."
Perhaps the following can serve as a less "selective" summary: ______________________________________________________________
1 The private pilot was unable to restart the engine and attempted an emergency landing in rocky, hilly terrain.
2 The pilot of the powered glider stated that about 30 seconds after takeoff, about 170 feet above the ground, the engine rpm decreased.
3 ... in cruise flight at 1,800 feet when the motorized glider experienced a total loss of engine power. He attempted an engine restart with negative results and made a forced landing.
4 ...experienced a partial loss of engine power on takeoff and landed hard while attempting a go around.
5 ...received a battery warning indication in the cockpit and was unable to start the engine with the electrical system.
6 The engine subsequently lost power when the aircraft was about 200 feet above ground level.
7 the pilot of the self-launching motor glider began the takeoff; however, the glider did not gain sufficient airspeed to depart.
8 The pilot turned back toward the airport and extended the engine/propeller to restart the engine; however, the engine would not start.
9 ...heard a very loud 'bang' in the front of the motor-glider followed by a severe vibration. The pilot shut down the engine and made a forced landing to a field.
10 He deployed the retractable engine and attempted to start it but was unsuccessful.
11 ...while he was preparing to land, the engine lost power.
12 after takeoff, the primary engine experienced a total loss of power about 75 ft above ground level, and the secondary engine was unable to maintain the motorglider's altitude.
13 As the glider overflew the field, the pilot extended the propeller and attempted three times to start the engine; however, it did not start.
14 The pilot had the right fuel tank selected and was flying in a counterclockwise direction around a ground reference point when the engine began to lose power. ...it is likely the fuel unported during the glider's climbing turn, which resulted in
15 ...while climbing toward a mountain pass, the experimental, amateur-built motorglider's engine began to overheat. The pilot delayed the climb to allow the engine to cool down and continued toward the pass, which resulted in reduced terrain clearance.As the motorglider approached the pass, it encountered a downdraft, and the engine was unable to produce enough power to stop the descent.
16 ... 4 miles from the airport, the glider began to sink about 1,000 ft per minute. He attempted to restart the engine but was unsuccessful in the limited time available.noticed flames below the right door; the flames grew and eventually consumed and destroyed the airplane.
17 ... was taking off when he noticed the engine sounded 'a little rough'; as he turned downwind, he started to smell smoke. He reported that he shut down the engine and returned for an uneventful landing. When the motor glider stopped, the pilot
18 the glider encountered sink and he turned on the electric motor, but it produced “no thrust.”engine again lost power from 6,500 rpm to approximately 4,300 rpm.
19 The engine started but was not producing the expected power. The pilot thought he had a fuel problem and was not aware that the propeller was still in a feathered condition.
20 The pilot, who is also the designer and builder of the experimental motorglider, was making his second flight after having completed a number of high-speed taxi tests ... On the accident flight, immediately after takeoff, the pusher-configuration
21 The pilot set up for a landing, and then deployed the glider's sustainer engine. The engine did not start, …And yet everything I said in my post still stands. In most cases, the glider did an off field landing. In most cases this was avoidable, or if not avoidable, identical to a situation with a towed glider that has a broken rope or has run low on altitude.
__________________________________________________________________
Asking "who's at fault: the pilot or the engine?" does not address the subject of this thread: "Are motorgliders safer than towed gliders?"
We can't answer that question with certainty. But we shouldn't ignore anecdotal data that points to the need for extra vigilance.
2G, you seem to summarized the data in a somewhat "selective" way.fuel starvation and the loss of engine power.
For example, you state "Case 1: "attempted an emergency landing in rocky, hilly terrain."
The complete sentence is: "pilot was unable to restart the engine and attempted an emergency landing in rocky, hilly terrain."
Perhaps the following can serve as a less "selective" summary: ______________________________________________________________
1 The private pilot was unable to restart the engine and attempted an emergency landing in rocky, hilly terrain.
2 The pilot of the powered glider stated that about 30 seconds after takeoff, about 170 feet above the ground, the engine rpm decreased.
3 ... in cruise flight at 1,800 feet when the motorized glider experienced a total loss of engine power. He attempted an engine restart with negative results and made a forced landing.
4 ...experienced a partial loss of engine power on takeoff and landed hard while attempting a go around.
5 ...received a battery warning indication in the cockpit and was unable to start the engine with the electrical system.
6 The engine subsequently lost power when the aircraft was about 200 feet above ground level.
7 the pilot of the self-launching motor glider began the takeoff; however, the glider did not gain sufficient airspeed to depart.
8 The pilot turned back toward the airport and extended the engine/propeller to restart the engine; however, the engine would not start.
9 ...heard a very loud 'bang' in the front of the motor-glider followed by a severe vibration. The pilot shut down the engine and made a forced landing to a field.
10 He deployed the retractable engine and attempted to start it but was unsuccessful.
11 ...while he was preparing to land, the engine lost power.
12 after takeoff, the primary engine experienced a total loss of power about 75 ft above ground level, and the secondary engine was unable to maintain the motorglider's altitude.
13 As the glider overflew the field, the pilot extended the propeller and attempted three times to start the engine; however, it did not start.
14 The pilot had the right fuel tank selected and was flying in a counterclockwise direction around a ground reference point when the engine began to lose power. ...it is likely the fuel unported during the glider's climbing turn, which resulted in
15 ...while climbing toward a mountain pass, the experimental, amateur-built motorglider's engine began to overheat. The pilot delayed the climb to allow the engine to cool down and continued toward the pass, which resulted in reduced terrain clearance.As the motorglider approached the pass, it encountered a downdraft, and the engine was unable to produce enough power to stop the descent.
16 ... 4 miles from the airport, the glider began to sink about 1,000 ft per minute. He attempted to restart the engine but was unsuccessful in the limited time available.noticed flames below the right door; the flames grew and eventually consumed and destroyed the airplane.
17 ... was taking off when he noticed the engine sounded 'a little rough'; as he turned downwind, he started to smell smoke. He reported that he shut down the engine and returned for an uneventful landing. When the motor glider stopped, the pilot
18 the glider encountered sink and he turned on the electric motor, but it produced “no thrust.”engine again lost power from 6,500 rpm to approximately 4,300 rpm.
19 The engine started but was not producing the expected power. The pilot thought he had a fuel problem and was not aware that the propeller was still in a feathered condition.
20 The pilot, who is also the designer and builder of the experimental motorglider, was making his second flight after having completed a number of high-speed taxi tests ... On the accident flight, immediately after takeoff, the pusher-configuration
21 The pilot set up for a landing, and then deployed the glider's sustainer engine. The engine did not start, …
__________________________________________________________________
Asking "who's at fault: the pilot or the engine?" does not address the subject of this thread: "Are motorgliders safer than towed gliders?"
We can't answer that question with certainty. But we shouldn't ignore anecdotal data that points to the need for extra vigilance.
On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 11:24:17 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:fuel starvation and the loss of engine power.
Well, you could look at accident RATES rather than NUMBERS. I would bet
the rates are higher for motor gliders but I'd also bet that the higher
numbers are due to higher complexity and, possibly, pilots who are not
always capable of handling the additional complexity.
I currently own a motor glider which I've flown almost 1,000 hours and
previously six pure gliders. I have not had an accident in any of them
so, by applying a lot of the "logic" which is so prevalent on this
group, they are of equal "safety".
Dan
5J
On 4/19/23 12:06, Ido Millet wrote:
2G, you seem to summarized the data in a somewhat "selective" way.
For example, you state "Case 1: "attempted an emergency landing in rocky, hilly terrain."
The complete sentence is: "pilot was unable to restart the engine and attempted an emergency landing in rocky, hilly terrain."
Perhaps the following can serve as a less "selective" summary:
______________________________________________________________
1 The private pilot was unable to restart the engine and attempted an emergency landing in rocky, hilly terrain.
2 The pilot of the powered glider stated that about 30 seconds after takeoff, about 170 feet above the ground, the engine rpm decreased.
3 ... in cruise flight at 1,800 feet when the motorized glider experienced a total loss of engine power. He attempted an engine restart with negative results and made a forced landing.
4 ...experienced a partial loss of engine power on takeoff and landed hard while attempting a go around.
5 ...received a battery warning indication in the cockpit and was unable to start the engine with the electrical system.
6 The engine subsequently lost power when the aircraft was about 200 feet above ground level.
7 the pilot of the self-launching motor glider began the takeoff; however, the glider did not gain sufficient airspeed to depart.
8 The pilot turned back toward the airport and extended the engine/propeller to restart the engine; however, the engine would not start.
9 ...heard a very loud 'bang' in the front of the motor-glider followed by a severe vibration. The pilot shut down the engine and made a forced landing to a field.
10 He deployed the retractable engine and attempted to start it but was unsuccessful.
11 ...while he was preparing to land, the engine lost power.
12 after takeoff, the primary engine experienced a total loss of power about 75 ft above ground level, and the secondary engine was unable to maintain the motorglider's altitude.
13 As the glider overflew the field, the pilot extended the propeller and attempted three times to start the engine; however, it did not start.
14 The pilot had the right fuel tank selected and was flying in a counterclockwise direction around a ground reference point when the engine began to lose power. ...it is likely the fuel unported during the glider's climbing turn, which resulted in
clearance. As the motorglider approached the pass, it encountered a downdraft, and the engine was unable to produce enough power to stop the descent.15 ...while climbing toward a mountain pass, the experimental, amateur-built motorglider's engine began to overheat. The pilot delayed the climb to allow the engine to cool down and continued toward the pass, which resulted in reduced terrain
noticed flames below the right door; the flames grew and eventually consumed and destroyed the airplane.16 ... 4 miles from the airport, the glider began to sink about 1,000 ft per minute. He attempted to restart the engine but was unsuccessful in the limited time available.
17 ... was taking off when he noticed the engine sounded 'a little rough'; as he turned downwind, he started to smell smoke. He reported that he shut down the engine and returned for an uneventful landing. When the motor glider stopped, the pilot
engine again lost power from 6,500 rpm to approximately 4,300 rpm.18 the glider encountered sink and he turned on the electric motor, but it produced “no thrust.”
19 The engine started but was not producing the expected power. The pilot thought he had a fuel problem and was not aware that the propeller was still in a feathered condition.
20 The pilot, who is also the designer and builder of the experimental motorglider, was making his second flight after having completed a number of high-speed taxi tests ... On the accident flight, immediately after takeoff, the pusher-configuration
21 The pilot set up for a landing, and then deployed the glider's sustainer engine. The engine did not start, …
__________________________________________________________________
Asking "who's at fault: the pilot or the engine?" does not address the subject of this thread: "Are motorgliders safer than towed gliders?"
We can't answer that question with certainty. But we shouldn't ignore anecdotal data that points to the need for extra vigilance.
When someone pontificates and includes the words "I will bet" I immediately know that what they have to say is worthless and that they have done ZERO research to back up their opinion.
Tom
"I will bet" you think everything you say is correct, eh, Tom?
I stand by what I said: Rates, not Numbers, and there are a lot of
"pilots" out there that are in way over their heads. That's an opinion,
but I'll stand by that one, too, based on decades of observation
Dan
5J
On 4/19/23 20:03, 2G wrote:
On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 11:24:17 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Well, you could look at accident RATES rather than NUMBERS. I would bet
the rates are higher for motor gliders but I'd also bet that the higher
numbers are due to higher complexity and, possibly, pilots who are not
always capable of handling the additional complexity.
I currently own a motor glider which I've flown almost 1,000 hours and
previously six pure gliders. I have not had an accident in any of them
so, by applying a lot of the "logic" which is so prevalent on this
group, they are of equal "safety".
Dan
5J
On 4/19/23 12:06, Ido Millet wrote:
2G, you seem to summarized the data in a somewhat "selective" way.
For example, you state "Case 1: "attempted an emergency landing in
rocky, hilly terrain."
The complete sentence is: "pilot was unable to restart the engine
and attempted an emergency landing in rocky, hilly terrain."
Perhaps the following can serve as a less "selective" summary:
______________________________________________________________
1 The private pilot was unable to restart the engine and attempted
an emergency landing in rocky, hilly terrain.
2 The pilot of the powered glider stated that about 30 seconds after
takeoff, about 170 feet above the ground, the engine rpm decreased.
3 ... in cruise flight at 1,800 feet when the motorized glider
experienced a total loss of engine power. He attempted an engine
restart with negative results and made a forced landing.
4 ...experienced a partial loss of engine power on takeoff and
landed hard while attempting a go around.
5 ...received a battery warning indication in the cockpit and was
unable to start the engine with the electrical system.
6 The engine subsequently lost power when the aircraft was about 200
feet above ground level.
7 the pilot of the self-launching motor glider began the takeoff;
however, the glider did not gain sufficient airspeed to depart.
8 The pilot turned back toward the airport and extended the
engine/propeller to restart the engine; however, the engine would
not start.
9 ...heard a very loud 'bang' in the front of the motor-glider
followed by a severe vibration. The pilot shut down the engine and
made a forced landing to a field.
10 He deployed the retractable engine and attempted to start it but
was unsuccessful.
11 ...while he was preparing to land, the engine lost power.
12 after takeoff, the primary engine experienced a total loss of
power about 75 ft above ground level, and the secondary engine was
unable to maintain the motorglider's altitude.
13 As the glider overflew the field, the pilot extended the
propeller and attempted three times to start the engine; however, it
did not start.
14 The pilot had the right fuel tank selected and was flying in a
counterclockwise direction around a ground reference point when the
engine began to lose power. ...it is likely the fuel unported during
the glider's climbing turn, which resulted in fuel starvation and
the loss of engine power.
15 ...while climbing toward a mountain pass, the experimental,
amateur-built motorglider's engine began to overheat. The pilot
delayed the climb to allow the engine to cool down and continued
toward the pass, which resulted in reduced terrain clearance. As the
motorglider approached the pass, it encountered a downdraft, and the
engine was unable to produce enough power to stop the descent.
16 ... 4 miles from the airport, the glider began to sink about
1,000 ft per minute. He attempted to restart the engine but was
unsuccessful in the limited time available.
17 ... was taking off when he noticed the engine sounded 'a little
rough'; as he turned downwind, he started to smell smoke. He
reported that he shut down the engine and returned for an uneventful
landing. When the motor glider stopped, the pilot noticed flames
below the right door; the flames grew and eventually consumed and
destroyed the airplane.
18 the glider encountered sink and he turned on the electric motor,
but it produced “no thrust.”
19 The engine started but was not producing the expected power. The
pilot thought he had a fuel problem and was not aware that the
propeller was still in a feathered condition.
20 The pilot, who is also the designer and builder of the
experimental motorglider, was making his second flight after having
completed a number of high-speed taxi tests ... On the accident
flight, immediately after takeoff, the pusher-configuration engine
again lost power from 6,500 rpm to approximately 4,300 rpm.
21 The pilot set up for a landing, and then deployed the glider's
sustainer engine. The engine did not start, …
__________________________________________________________________
Asking "who's at fault: the pilot or the engine?" does not address
the subject of this thread: "Are motorgliders safer than towed
gliders?"
We can't answer that question with certainty. But we shouldn't
ignore anecdotal data that points to the need for extra vigilance.
When someone pontificates and includes the words "I will bet" I
immediately know that what they have to say is worthless and that they
have done ZERO research to back up their opinion.
Tom
Recently, Old Bob the Purist wrote:during a Seniors event when some guy left an airport area low and was going to rely on the motor and it did not start when called upon and the other there was a malfunction of the engine and it would not start and also resulted in a land out. So with
"Eric, you must admit that convenience and safety go together. What is interesting is the reliability of the motorglider when needed. I can only recall two instances where the motor did not start when called upon that resulted in land outs. Once was
A motor does not automatically give you safety or convenience. For some pilots, the additional complexity and cost of a motor exceeds the convenience of tows when desired, and for others, that complexity decreases their safety when low and underpressure to avoid a landout.
But it's good question: just how reliably does a motorglider start? That's a bit like asking "how reliable is the L/D on your glider", because L/D is what most of us depend on to keep us safe during a flight. The answer to both questions is "it depends"; for example, the type of motorglider, it's maintenance, and pilot ability can all strongly affect the success of an attempted start in stressful conditions (and knowing you will crash if the engine doesn't start is definitely stressful). The older (
Using your 98% reliability for starting, I'd expect to have a failed in-flight start about once every 10 years. A crash every 10 years sounds like very poor odds to me! No crashes for me, however, even though I made a lot use of the convenience of mymotorglider to enhance my soaring experience, as I maintain my safety because I don't count on it starting to "save my ass". You, on the other hand, would gain neither convenience nor safety with a motorglider, unless you change the way you've been
"I will bet" you think everything you say is correct, eh, Tom?fuel starvation and the loss of engine power.
I stand by what I said: Rates, not Numbers, and there are a lot of
"pilots" out there that are in way over their heads. That's an opinion,
but I'll stand by that one, too, based on decades of observation
Dan
5J
On 4/19/23 20:03, 2G wrote:
On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 11:24:17 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Well, you could look at accident RATES rather than NUMBERS. I would bet >> the rates are higher for motor gliders but I'd also bet that the higher >> numbers are due to higher complexity and, possibly, pilots who are not
always capable of handling the additional complexity.
I currently own a motor glider which I've flown almost 1,000 hours and
previously six pure gliders. I have not had an accident in any of them
so, by applying a lot of the "logic" which is so prevalent on this
group, they are of equal "safety".
Dan
5J
On 4/19/23 12:06, Ido Millet wrote:
2G, you seem to summarized the data in a somewhat "selective" way.
For example, you state "Case 1: "attempted an emergency landing in rocky, hilly terrain."
The complete sentence is: "pilot was unable to restart the engine and attempted an emergency landing in rocky, hilly terrain."
Perhaps the following can serve as a less "selective" summary:
______________________________________________________________
1 The private pilot was unable to restart the engine and attempted an emergency landing in rocky, hilly terrain.
2 The pilot of the powered glider stated that about 30 seconds after takeoff, about 170 feet above the ground, the engine rpm decreased.
3 ... in cruise flight at 1,800 feet when the motorized glider experienced a total loss of engine power. He attempted an engine restart with negative results and made a forced landing.
4 ...experienced a partial loss of engine power on takeoff and landed hard while attempting a go around.
5 ...received a battery warning indication in the cockpit and was unable to start the engine with the electrical system.
6 The engine subsequently lost power when the aircraft was about 200 feet above ground level.
7 the pilot of the self-launching motor glider began the takeoff; however, the glider did not gain sufficient airspeed to depart.
8 The pilot turned back toward the airport and extended the engine/propeller to restart the engine; however, the engine would not start.
9 ...heard a very loud 'bang' in the front of the motor-glider followed by a severe vibration. The pilot shut down the engine and made a forced landing to a field.
10 He deployed the retractable engine and attempted to start it but was unsuccessful.
11 ...while he was preparing to land, the engine lost power.
12 after takeoff, the primary engine experienced a total loss of power about 75 ft above ground level, and the secondary engine was unable to maintain the motorglider's altitude.
13 As the glider overflew the field, the pilot extended the propeller and attempted three times to start the engine; however, it did not start.
14 The pilot had the right fuel tank selected and was flying in a counterclockwise direction around a ground reference point when the engine began to lose power. ...it is likely the fuel unported during the glider's climbing turn, which resulted in
clearance. As the motorglider approached the pass, it encountered a downdraft, and the engine was unable to produce enough power to stop the descent.15 ...while climbing toward a mountain pass, the experimental, amateur-built motorglider's engine began to overheat. The pilot delayed the climb to allow the engine to cool down and continued toward the pass, which resulted in reduced terrain
noticed flames below the right door; the flames grew and eventually consumed and destroyed the airplane.16 ... 4 miles from the airport, the glider began to sink about 1,000 ft per minute. He attempted to restart the engine but was unsuccessful in the limited time available.
17 ... was taking off when he noticed the engine sounded 'a little rough'; as he turned downwind, he started to smell smoke. He reported that he shut down the engine and returned for an uneventful landing. When the motor glider stopped, the pilot
configuration engine again lost power from 6,500 rpm to approximately 4,300 rpm.18 the glider encountered sink and he turned on the electric motor, but it produced “no thrust.”
19 The engine started but was not producing the expected power. The pilot thought he had a fuel problem and was not aware that the propeller was still in a feathered condition.
20 The pilot, who is also the designer and builder of the experimental motorglider, was making his second flight after having completed a number of high-speed taxi tests ... On the accident flight, immediately after takeoff, the pusher-
21 The pilot set up for a landing, and then deployed the glider's sustainer engine. The engine did not start, …
__________________________________________________________________
Asking "who's at fault: the pilot or the engine?" does not address the subject of this thread: "Are motorgliders safer than towed gliders?"
We can't answer that question with certainty. But we shouldn't ignore anecdotal data that points to the need for extra vigilance.
When someone pontificates and includes the words "I will bet" I immediately know that what they have to say is worthless and that they have done ZERO research to back up their opinion.
Tom
Eric, I noticed that your flight of 4-19-23 was not accepted by OLC because of your logger, what happened, did it not pick up the starting of the motor to SYA? OBTP
Well, you could look at accident RATES rather than NUMBERS. I would betfuel starvation and the loss of engine power.
the rates are higher for motor gliders but I'd also bet that the higher numbers are due to higher complexity and, possibly, pilots who are not always capable of handling the additional complexity.
I currently own a motor glider which I've flown almost 1,000 hours and previously six pure gliders. I have not had an accident in any of them
so, by applying a lot of the "logic" which is so prevalent on this
group, they are of equal "safety".
Dan
5J
On 4/19/23 12:06, Ido Millet wrote:
2G, you seem to summarized the data in a somewhat "selective" way.
For example, you state "Case 1: "attempted an emergency landing in rocky, hilly terrain."
The complete sentence is: "pilot was unable to restart the engine and attempted an emergency landing in rocky, hilly terrain."
Perhaps the following can serve as a less "selective" summary: ______________________________________________________________
1 The private pilot was unable to restart the engine and attempted an emergency landing in rocky, hilly terrain.
2 The pilot of the powered glider stated that about 30 seconds after takeoff, about 170 feet above the ground, the engine rpm decreased.
3 ... in cruise flight at 1,800 feet when the motorized glider experienced a total loss of engine power. He attempted an engine restart with negative results and made a forced landing.
4 ...experienced a partial loss of engine power on takeoff and landed hard while attempting a go around.
5 ...received a battery warning indication in the cockpit and was unable to start the engine with the electrical system.
6 The engine subsequently lost power when the aircraft was about 200 feet above ground level.
7 the pilot of the self-launching motor glider began the takeoff; however, the glider did not gain sufficient airspeed to depart.
8 The pilot turned back toward the airport and extended the engine/propeller to restart the engine; however, the engine would not start.
9 ...heard a very loud 'bang' in the front of the motor-glider followed by a severe vibration. The pilot shut down the engine and made a forced landing to a field.
10 He deployed the retractable engine and attempted to start it but was unsuccessful.
11 ...while he was preparing to land, the engine lost power.
12 after takeoff, the primary engine experienced a total loss of power about 75 ft above ground level, and the secondary engine was unable to maintain the motorglider's altitude.
13 As the glider overflew the field, the pilot extended the propeller and attempted three times to start the engine; however, it did not start.
14 The pilot had the right fuel tank selected and was flying in a counterclockwise direction around a ground reference point when the engine began to lose power. ...it is likely the fuel unported during the glider's climbing turn, which resulted in
clearance. As the motorglider approached the pass, it encountered a downdraft, and the engine was unable to produce enough power to stop the descent.15 ...while climbing toward a mountain pass, the experimental, amateur-built motorglider's engine began to overheat. The pilot delayed the climb to allow the engine to cool down and continued toward the pass, which resulted in reduced terrain
noticed flames below the right door; the flames grew and eventually consumed and destroyed the airplane.16 ... 4 miles from the airport, the glider began to sink about 1,000 ft per minute. He attempted to restart the engine but was unsuccessful in the limited time available.
17 ... was taking off when he noticed the engine sounded 'a little rough'; as he turned downwind, he started to smell smoke. He reported that he shut down the engine and returned for an uneventful landing. When the motor glider stopped, the pilot
engine again lost power from 6,500 rpm to approximately 4,300 rpm.18 the glider encountered sink and he turned on the electric motor, but it produced “no thrust.”
19 The engine started but was not producing the expected power. The pilot thought he had a fuel problem and was not aware that the propeller was still in a feathered condition.
20 The pilot, who is also the designer and builder of the experimental motorglider, was making his second flight after having completed a number of high-speed taxi tests ... On the accident flight, immediately after takeoff, the pusher-configuration
21 The pilot set up for a landing, and then deployed the glider's sustainer engine. The engine did not start, …
__________________________________________________________________
Asking "who's at fault: the pilot or the engine?" does not address the subject of this thread: "Are motorgliders safer than towed gliders?"
We can't answer that question with certainty. But we shouldn't ignore anecdotal data that points to the need for extra vigilance.
If rates really are higher (and I tend to agree with you, but I'm not sure it's true), then I would say "motorgliders are not safer". Higher operational complexity, additional maintenance requirements, change in pilots risk acceptance (eg, acceptingpoorer potential landing areas than when flying a towed glider), higher landing speed due to more weight, more exposure due to more flights - all tend increase the risk of operating a motorglider, perhaps mitigated to some extent by fewer field landings.
But I don't think we can compare towed glider rates to motorglider rates to decide about the safety of towed vs motored, because the pilots demographics are likely very different; also, where and when they fly might be significantly different.fuel starvation and the loss of engine power.
Eric
On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 11:24:17 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Well, you could look at accident RATES rather than NUMBERS. I would bet
the rates are higher for motor gliders but I'd also bet that the higher
numbers are due to higher complexity and, possibly, pilots who are not
always capable of handling the additional complexity.
I currently own a motor glider which I've flown almost 1,000 hours and
previously six pure gliders. I have not had an accident in any of them
so, by applying a lot of the "logic" which is so prevalent on this
group, they are of equal "safety".
Dan
5J
On 4/19/23 12:06, Ido Millet wrote:
2G, you seem to summarized the data in a somewhat "selective" way.
For example, you state "Case 1: "attempted an emergency landing in rocky, hilly terrain."
The complete sentence is: "pilot was unable to restart the engine and attempted an emergency landing in rocky, hilly terrain."
Perhaps the following can serve as a less "selective" summary:
______________________________________________________________
1 The private pilot was unable to restart the engine and attempted an emergency landing in rocky, hilly terrain.
2 The pilot of the powered glider stated that about 30 seconds after takeoff, about 170 feet above the ground, the engine rpm decreased.
3 ... in cruise flight at 1,800 feet when the motorized glider experienced a total loss of engine power. He attempted an engine restart with negative results and made a forced landing.
4 ...experienced a partial loss of engine power on takeoff and landed hard while attempting a go around.
5 ...received a battery warning indication in the cockpit and was unable to start the engine with the electrical system.
6 The engine subsequently lost power when the aircraft was about 200 feet above ground level.
7 the pilot of the self-launching motor glider began the takeoff; however, the glider did not gain sufficient airspeed to depart.
8 The pilot turned back toward the airport and extended the engine/propeller to restart the engine; however, the engine would not start.
9 ...heard a very loud 'bang' in the front of the motor-glider followed by a severe vibration. The pilot shut down the engine and made a forced landing to a field.
10 He deployed the retractable engine and attempted to start it but was unsuccessful.
11 ...while he was preparing to land, the engine lost power.
12 after takeoff, the primary engine experienced a total loss of power about 75 ft above ground level, and the secondary engine was unable to maintain the motorglider's altitude.
13 As the glider overflew the field, the pilot extended the propeller and attempted three times to start the engine; however, it did not start.
14 The pilot had the right fuel tank selected and was flying in a counterclockwise direction around a ground reference point when the engine began to lose power. ...it is likely the fuel unported during the glider's climbing turn, which resulted in
clearance. As the motorglider approached the pass, it encountered a downdraft, and the engine was unable to produce enough power to stop the descent.15 ...while climbing toward a mountain pass, the experimental, amateur-built motorglider's engine began to overheat. The pilot delayed the climb to allow the engine to cool down and continued toward the pass, which resulted in reduced terrain
noticed flames below the right door; the flames grew and eventually consumed and destroyed the airplane.16 ... 4 miles from the airport, the glider began to sink about 1,000 ft per minute. He attempted to restart the engine but was unsuccessful in the limited time available.
17 ... was taking off when he noticed the engine sounded 'a little rough'; as he turned downwind, he started to smell smoke. He reported that he shut down the engine and returned for an uneventful landing. When the motor glider stopped, the pilot
engine again lost power from 6,500 rpm to approximately 4,300 rpm.18 the glider encountered sink and he turned on the electric motor, but it produced “no thrust.”
19 The engine started but was not producing the expected power. The pilot thought he had a fuel problem and was not aware that the propeller was still in a feathered condition.
20 The pilot, who is also the designer and builder of the experimental motorglider, was making his second flight after having completed a number of high-speed taxi tests ... On the accident flight, immediately after takeoff, the pusher-configuration
21 The pilot set up for a landing, and then deployed the glider's sustainer engine. The engine did not start, …
__________________________________________________________________
Asking "who's at fault: the pilot or the engine?" does not address the subject of this thread: "Are motorgliders safer than towed gliders?"
We can't answer that question with certainty. But we shouldn't ignore anecdotal data that points to the need for extra vigilance.
Kinda what I was alluding to with fewer words.poorer potential landing areas than when flying a towed glider), higher landing speed due to more weight, more exposure due to more flights - all tend increase the risk of operating a motorglider, perhaps mitigated to some extent by fewer field landings.
Now 2G Tom wants me to prove something that is not provable; that
experience (or training, if you prefer) makes one a safer pilot. That,
by extension makes the aircraft that he is flying "safer".
Example: I have flown jets, turboprops, piston powered airplanes,
gliders, and gyroplanes and pure gliders and never had an accident in
any of them. Does that mean that every aircraft I have flown is safer
than the motor gliders that have had accidents? The answer is clearly
"NO". It's the pilot's lack of training, experience, or momentary loss
of focus that causes the majority of accidents.
Maybe I can come up with a second order partial differential equation
that will satisfy Tom's fantasy...
Dan
5J
On 4/20/23 22:22, Eric Greenwell wrote:
If rates really are higher (and I tend to agree with you, but I'm not sure it's true), then I would say "motorgliders are not safer". Higher operational complexity, additional maintenance requirements, change in pilots risk acceptance (eg, accepting
fuel starvation and the loss of engine power.But I don't think we can compare towed glider rates to motorglider rates to decide about the safety of towed vs motored, because the pilots demographics are likely very different; also, where and when they fly might be significantly different.
Eric
On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 11:24:17 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Well, you could look at accident RATES rather than NUMBERS. I would bet >> the rates are higher for motor gliders but I'd also bet that the higher >> numbers are due to higher complexity and, possibly, pilots who are not
always capable of handling the additional complexity.
I currently own a motor glider which I've flown almost 1,000 hours and
previously six pure gliders. I have not had an accident in any of them
so, by applying a lot of the "logic" which is so prevalent on this
group, they are of equal "safety".
Dan
5J
On 4/19/23 12:06, Ido Millet wrote:
2G, you seem to summarized the data in a somewhat "selective" way.
For example, you state "Case 1: "attempted an emergency landing in rocky, hilly terrain."
The complete sentence is: "pilot was unable to restart the engine and attempted an emergency landing in rocky, hilly terrain."
Perhaps the following can serve as a less "selective" summary:
______________________________________________________________
1 The private pilot was unable to restart the engine and attempted an emergency landing in rocky, hilly terrain.
2 The pilot of the powered glider stated that about 30 seconds after takeoff, about 170 feet above the ground, the engine rpm decreased.
3 ... in cruise flight at 1,800 feet when the motorized glider experienced a total loss of engine power. He attempted an engine restart with negative results and made a forced landing.
4 ...experienced a partial loss of engine power on takeoff and landed hard while attempting a go around.
5 ...received a battery warning indication in the cockpit and was unable to start the engine with the electrical system.
6 The engine subsequently lost power when the aircraft was about 200 feet above ground level.
7 the pilot of the self-launching motor glider began the takeoff; however, the glider did not gain sufficient airspeed to depart.
8 The pilot turned back toward the airport and extended the engine/propeller to restart the engine; however, the engine would not start.
9 ...heard a very loud 'bang' in the front of the motor-glider followed by a severe vibration. The pilot shut down the engine and made a forced landing to a field.
10 He deployed the retractable engine and attempted to start it but was unsuccessful.
11 ...while he was preparing to land, the engine lost power.
12 after takeoff, the primary engine experienced a total loss of power about 75 ft above ground level, and the secondary engine was unable to maintain the motorglider's altitude.
13 As the glider overflew the field, the pilot extended the propeller and attempted three times to start the engine; however, it did not start.
14 The pilot had the right fuel tank selected and was flying in a counterclockwise direction around a ground reference point when the engine began to lose power. ...it is likely the fuel unported during the glider's climbing turn, which resulted in
clearance. As the motorglider approached the pass, it encountered a downdraft, and the engine was unable to produce enough power to stop the descent.15 ...while climbing toward a mountain pass, the experimental, amateur-built motorglider's engine began to overheat. The pilot delayed the climb to allow the engine to cool down and continued toward the pass, which resulted in reduced terrain
noticed flames below the right door; the flames grew and eventually consumed and destroyed the airplane.16 ... 4 miles from the airport, the glider began to sink about 1,000 ft per minute. He attempted to restart the engine but was unsuccessful in the limited time available.
17 ... was taking off when he noticed the engine sounded 'a little rough'; as he turned downwind, he started to smell smoke. He reported that he shut down the engine and returned for an uneventful landing. When the motor glider stopped, the pilot
configuration engine again lost power from 6,500 rpm to approximately 4,300 rpm.18 the glider encountered sink and he turned on the electric motor, but it produced “no thrust.”
19 The engine started but was not producing the expected power. The pilot thought he had a fuel problem and was not aware that the propeller was still in a feathered condition.
20 The pilot, who is also the designer and builder of the experimental motorglider, was making his second flight after having completed a number of high-speed taxi tests ... On the accident flight, immediately after takeoff, the pusher-
21 The pilot set up for a landing, and then deployed the glider's sustainer engine. The engine did not start, …
__________________________________________________________________
Asking "who's at fault: the pilot or the engine?" does not address the subject of this thread: "Are motorgliders safer than towed gliders?"
We can't answer that question with certainty. But we shouldn't ignore anecdotal data that points to the need for extra vigilance.
On Friday, April 21, 2023 at 10:17:44 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:poorer potential landing areas than when flying a towed glider), higher landing speed due to more weight, more exposure due to more flights - all tend increase the risk of operating a motorglider, perhaps mitigated to some extent by fewer field landings.
Kinda what I was alluding to with fewer words.
Now 2G Tom wants me to prove something that is not provable; that
experience (or training, if you prefer) makes one a safer pilot. That,
by extension makes the aircraft that he is flying "safer".
Example: I have flown jets, turboprops, piston powered airplanes,
gliders, and gyroplanes and pure gliders and never had an accident in
any of them. Does that mean that every aircraft I have flown is safer
than the motor gliders that have had accidents? The answer is clearly
"NO". It's the pilot's lack of training, experience, or momentary loss
of focus that causes the majority of accidents.
Maybe I can come up with a second order partial differential equation
that will satisfy Tom's fantasy...
Dan
5J
On 4/20/23 22:22, Eric Greenwell wrote:
If rates really are higher (and I tend to agree with you, but I'm not sure it's true), then I would say "motorgliders are not safer". Higher operational complexity, additional maintenance requirements, change in pilots risk acceptance (eg, accepting
fuel starvation and the loss of engine power.
But I don't think we can compare towed glider rates to motorglider rates to decide about the safety of towed vs motored, because the pilots demographics are likely very different; also, where and when they fly might be significantly different.
Eric
On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 11:24:17 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote: >>>> Well, you could look at accident RATES rather than NUMBERS. I would bet >>>> the rates are higher for motor gliders but I'd also bet that the higher >>>> numbers are due to higher complexity and, possibly, pilots who are not >>>> always capable of handling the additional complexity.
I currently own a motor glider which I've flown almost 1,000 hours and >>>> previously six pure gliders. I have not had an accident in any of them >>>> so, by applying a lot of the "logic" which is so prevalent on this
group, they are of equal "safety".
Dan
5J
On 4/19/23 12:06, Ido Millet wrote:
2G, you seem to summarized the data in a somewhat "selective" way.
For example, you state "Case 1: "attempted an emergency landing in rocky, hilly terrain."
The complete sentence is: "pilot was unable to restart the engine and attempted an emergency landing in rocky, hilly terrain."
Perhaps the following can serve as a less "selective" summary:
______________________________________________________________
1 The private pilot was unable to restart the engine and attempted an emergency landing in rocky, hilly terrain.
2 The pilot of the powered glider stated that about 30 seconds after takeoff, about 170 feet above the ground, the engine rpm decreased.
3 ... in cruise flight at 1,800 feet when the motorized glider experienced a total loss of engine power. He attempted an engine restart with negative results and made a forced landing.
4 ...experienced a partial loss of engine power on takeoff and landed hard while attempting a go around.
5 ...received a battery warning indication in the cockpit and was unable to start the engine with the electrical system.
6 The engine subsequently lost power when the aircraft was about 200 feet above ground level.
7 the pilot of the self-launching motor glider began the takeoff; however, the glider did not gain sufficient airspeed to depart.
8 The pilot turned back toward the airport and extended the engine/propeller to restart the engine; however, the engine would not start.
9 ...heard a very loud 'bang' in the front of the motor-glider followed by a severe vibration. The pilot shut down the engine and made a forced landing to a field.
10 He deployed the retractable engine and attempted to start it but was unsuccessful.
11 ...while he was preparing to land, the engine lost power.
12 after takeoff, the primary engine experienced a total loss of power about 75 ft above ground level, and the secondary engine was unable to maintain the motorglider's altitude.
13 As the glider overflew the field, the pilot extended the propeller and attempted three times to start the engine; however, it did not start.
14 The pilot had the right fuel tank selected and was flying in a counterclockwise direction around a ground reference point when the engine began to lose power. ...it is likely the fuel unported during the glider's climbing turn, which resulted in
clearance. As the motorglider approached the pass, it encountered a downdraft, and the engine was unable to produce enough power to stop the descent.15 ...while climbing toward a mountain pass, the experimental, amateur-built motorglider's engine began to overheat. The pilot delayed the climb to allow the engine to cool down and continued toward the pass, which resulted in reduced terrain
noticed flames below the right door; the flames grew and eventually consumed and destroyed the airplane.16 ... 4 miles from the airport, the glider began to sink about 1,000 ft per minute. He attempted to restart the engine but was unsuccessful in the limited time available.
17 ... was taking off when he noticed the engine sounded 'a little rough'; as he turned downwind, he started to smell smoke. He reported that he shut down the engine and returned for an uneventful landing. When the motor glider stopped, the pilot
configuration engine again lost power from 6,500 rpm to approximately 4,300 rpm.18 the glider encountered sink and he turned on the electric motor, but it produced “no thrust.”
19 The engine started but was not producing the expected power. The pilot thought he had a fuel problem and was not aware that the propeller was still in a feathered condition.
20 The pilot, who is also the designer and builder of the experimental motorglider, was making his second flight after having completed a number of high-speed taxi tests ... On the accident flight, immediately after takeoff, the pusher-
21 The pilot set up for a landing, and then deployed the glider's sustainer engine. The engine did not start, …
__________________________________________________________________
Asking "who's at fault: the pilot or the engine?" does not address the subject of this thread: "Are motorgliders safer than towed gliders?"
We can't answer that question with certainty. But we shouldn't ignore anecdotal data that points to the need for extra vigilance.
Dan,
Let's review what you wrote:
"Well, you could look at accident RATES rather than NUMBERS. I would bet
the rates are higher for motor gliders but I'd also bet that the higher numbers are due to higher complexity and, possibly, pilots who are not
always capable of handling the additional complexity."
Now, are you saying that these RATES are unprovable? Seriously? BTW, a "rate" IS a number, so what you wrote is a direct contradiction with itself. This is not that easy to do, but you did it.
Again, your use of the phrase "I will bet" is not "I have the evidence that PROVES." Second-order partial differential equations are an interesting topic, but not germane here. For further reading try this:
http://www.personal.psu.edu/sxt104/class/Math251/Notes-PDE%20pt1.pdf
Tom 2G
Not getting sucked into a pissing contest with you, Tom. Enjoy youraccepting poorer potential landing areas than when flying a towed glider), higher landing speed due to more weight, more exposure due to more flights - all tend increase the risk of operating a motorglider, perhaps mitigated to some extent by fewer field
superior intellect.
Dan
5J
On 4/22/23 14:31, 2G wrote:
On Friday, April 21, 2023 at 10:17:44 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Kinda what I was alluding to with fewer words.
Now 2G Tom wants me to prove something that is not provable; that
experience (or training, if you prefer) makes one a safer pilot. That,
by extension makes the aircraft that he is flying "safer".
Example: I have flown jets, turboprops, piston powered airplanes,
gliders, and gyroplanes and pure gliders and never had an accident in
any of them. Does that mean that every aircraft I have flown is safer
than the motor gliders that have had accidents? The answer is clearly
"NO". It's the pilot's lack of training, experience, or momentary loss
of focus that causes the majority of accidents.
Maybe I can come up with a second order partial differential equation
that will satisfy Tom's fantasy...
Dan
5J
On 4/20/23 22:22, Eric Greenwell wrote:
If rates really are higher (and I tend to agree with you, but I'm not sure it's true), then I would say "motorgliders are not safer". Higher operational complexity, additional maintenance requirements, change in pilots risk acceptance (eg,
in fuel starvation and the loss of engine power.
But I don't think we can compare towed glider rates to motorglider rates to decide about the safety of towed vs motored, because the pilots demographics are likely very different; also, where and when they fly might be significantly different.
Eric
On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 11:24:17 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote: >>>> Well, you could look at accident RATES rather than NUMBERS. I would bet >>>> the rates are higher for motor gliders but I'd also bet that the higher >>>> numbers are due to higher complexity and, possibly, pilots who are not >>>> always capable of handling the additional complexity.
I currently own a motor glider which I've flown almost 1,000 hours and >>>> previously six pure gliders. I have not had an accident in any of them >>>> so, by applying a lot of the "logic" which is so prevalent on this
group, they are of equal "safety".
Dan
5J
On 4/19/23 12:06, Ido Millet wrote:
2G, you seem to summarized the data in a somewhat "selective" way. >>>>> For example, you state "Case 1: "attempted an emergency landing in rocky, hilly terrain."
The complete sentence is: "pilot was unable to restart the engine and attempted an emergency landing in rocky, hilly terrain."
Perhaps the following can serve as a less "selective" summary:
______________________________________________________________
1 The private pilot was unable to restart the engine and attempted an emergency landing in rocky, hilly terrain.
2 The pilot of the powered glider stated that about 30 seconds after takeoff, about 170 feet above the ground, the engine rpm decreased.
3 ... in cruise flight at 1,800 feet when the motorized glider experienced a total loss of engine power. He attempted an engine restart with negative results and made a forced landing.
4 ...experienced a partial loss of engine power on takeoff and landed hard while attempting a go around.
5 ...received a battery warning indication in the cockpit and was unable to start the engine with the electrical system.
6 The engine subsequently lost power when the aircraft was about 200 feet above ground level.
7 the pilot of the self-launching motor glider began the takeoff; however, the glider did not gain sufficient airspeed to depart.
8 The pilot turned back toward the airport and extended the engine/propeller to restart the engine; however, the engine would not start.
9 ...heard a very loud 'bang' in the front of the motor-glider followed by a severe vibration. The pilot shut down the engine and made a forced landing to a field.
10 He deployed the retractable engine and attempted to start it but was unsuccessful.
11 ...while he was preparing to land, the engine lost power.
12 after takeoff, the primary engine experienced a total loss of power about 75 ft above ground level, and the secondary engine was unable to maintain the motorglider's altitude.
13 As the glider overflew the field, the pilot extended the propeller and attempted three times to start the engine; however, it did not start.
14 The pilot had the right fuel tank selected and was flying in a counterclockwise direction around a ground reference point when the engine began to lose power. ...it is likely the fuel unported during the glider's climbing turn, which resulted
clearance. As the motorglider approached the pass, it encountered a downdraft, and the engine was unable to produce enough power to stop the descent.15 ...while climbing toward a mountain pass, the experimental, amateur-built motorglider's engine began to overheat. The pilot delayed the climb to allow the engine to cool down and continued toward the pass, which resulted in reduced terrain
noticed flames below the right door; the flames grew and eventually consumed and destroyed the airplane.16 ... 4 miles from the airport, the glider began to sink about 1,000 ft per minute. He attempted to restart the engine but was unsuccessful in the limited time available.
17 ... was taking off when he noticed the engine sounded 'a little rough'; as he turned downwind, he started to smell smoke. He reported that he shut down the engine and returned for an uneventful landing. When the motor glider stopped, the pilot
configuration engine again lost power from 6,500 rpm to approximately 4,300 rpm.18 the glider encountered sink and he turned on the electric motor, but it produced “no thrust.”
19 The engine started but was not producing the expected power. The pilot thought he had a fuel problem and was not aware that the propeller was still in a feathered condition.
20 The pilot, who is also the designer and builder of the experimental motorglider, was making his second flight after having completed a number of high-speed taxi tests ... On the accident flight, immediately after takeoff, the pusher-
Dan, it is not called intellect, it is called arrogance, DSM5 is a legend in his own mind, even his fellow motorglider geeks know he is a nutcase. Look at some of his postings, it is obvious that he needs help. Old Bob, The Purist21 The pilot set up for a landing, and then deployed the glider's sustainer engine. The engine did not start, …
__________________________________________________________________ >>>>>
Asking "who's at fault: the pilot or the engine?" does not address the subject of this thread: "Are motorgliders safer than towed gliders?"
We can't answer that question with certainty. But we shouldn't ignore anecdotal data that points to the need for extra vigilance.
Dan,
Let's review what you wrote:
"Well, you could look at accident RATES rather than NUMBERS. I would bet the rates are higher for motor gliders but I'd also bet that the higher numbers are due to higher complexity and, possibly, pilots who are not always capable of handling the additional complexity."
Now, are you saying that these RATES are unprovable? Seriously? BTW, a "rate" IS a number, so what you wrote is a direct contradiction with itself. This is not that easy to do, but you did it.
Again, your use of the phrase "I will bet" is not "I have the evidence that PROVES." Second-order partial differential equations are an interesting topic, but not germane here. For further reading try this:
http://www.personal.psu.edu/sxt104/class/Math251/Notes-PDE%20pt1.pdf
Tom 2G
Not getting sucked into a pissing contest with you, Tom. Enjoy youraccepting poorer potential landing areas than when flying a towed glider), higher landing speed due to more weight, more exposure due to more flights - all tend increase the risk of operating a motorglider, perhaps mitigated to some extent by fewer field
superior intellect.
Dan
5J
On 4/22/23 14:31, 2G wrote:
On Friday, April 21, 2023 at 10:17:44 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Kinda what I was alluding to with fewer words.
Now 2G Tom wants me to prove something that is not provable; that
experience (or training, if you prefer) makes one a safer pilot. That,
by extension makes the aircraft that he is flying "safer".
Example: I have flown jets, turboprops, piston powered airplanes,
gliders, and gyroplanes and pure gliders and never had an accident in
any of them. Does that mean that every aircraft I have flown is safer
than the motor gliders that have had accidents? The answer is clearly
"NO". It's the pilot's lack of training, experience, or momentary loss
of focus that causes the majority of accidents.
Maybe I can come up with a second order partial differential equation
that will satisfy Tom's fantasy...
Dan
5J
On 4/20/23 22:22, Eric Greenwell wrote:
If rates really are higher (and I tend to agree with you, but I'm not sure it's true), then I would say "motorgliders are not safer". Higher operational complexity, additional maintenance requirements, change in pilots risk acceptance (eg,
in fuel starvation and the loss of engine power.
But I don't think we can compare towed glider rates to motorglider rates to decide about the safety of towed vs motored, because the pilots demographics are likely very different; also, where and when they fly might be significantly different.
Eric
On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 11:24:17 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote: >>>> Well, you could look at accident RATES rather than NUMBERS. I would bet >>>> the rates are higher for motor gliders but I'd also bet that the higher >>>> numbers are due to higher complexity and, possibly, pilots who are not >>>> always capable of handling the additional complexity.
I currently own a motor glider which I've flown almost 1,000 hours and >>>> previously six pure gliders. I have not had an accident in any of them >>>> so, by applying a lot of the "logic" which is so prevalent on this
group, they are of equal "safety".
Dan
5J
On 4/19/23 12:06, Ido Millet wrote:
2G, you seem to summarized the data in a somewhat "selective" way. >>>>> For example, you state "Case 1: "attempted an emergency landing in rocky, hilly terrain."
The complete sentence is: "pilot was unable to restart the engine and attempted an emergency landing in rocky, hilly terrain."
Perhaps the following can serve as a less "selective" summary:
______________________________________________________________
1 The private pilot was unable to restart the engine and attempted an emergency landing in rocky, hilly terrain.
2 The pilot of the powered glider stated that about 30 seconds after takeoff, about 170 feet above the ground, the engine rpm decreased.
3 ... in cruise flight at 1,800 feet when the motorized glider experienced a total loss of engine power. He attempted an engine restart with negative results and made a forced landing.
4 ...experienced a partial loss of engine power on takeoff and landed hard while attempting a go around.
5 ...received a battery warning indication in the cockpit and was unable to start the engine with the electrical system.
6 The engine subsequently lost power when the aircraft was about 200 feet above ground level.
7 the pilot of the self-launching motor glider began the takeoff; however, the glider did not gain sufficient airspeed to depart.
8 The pilot turned back toward the airport and extended the engine/propeller to restart the engine; however, the engine would not start.
9 ...heard a very loud 'bang' in the front of the motor-glider followed by a severe vibration. The pilot shut down the engine and made a forced landing to a field.
10 He deployed the retractable engine and attempted to start it but was unsuccessful.
11 ...while he was preparing to land, the engine lost power.
12 after takeoff, the primary engine experienced a total loss of power about 75 ft above ground level, and the secondary engine was unable to maintain the motorglider's altitude.
13 As the glider overflew the field, the pilot extended the propeller and attempted three times to start the engine; however, it did not start.
14 The pilot had the right fuel tank selected and was flying in a counterclockwise direction around a ground reference point when the engine began to lose power. ...it is likely the fuel unported during the glider's climbing turn, which resulted
clearance. As the motorglider approached the pass, it encountered a downdraft, and the engine was unable to produce enough power to stop the descent.15 ...while climbing toward a mountain pass, the experimental, amateur-built motorglider's engine began to overheat. The pilot delayed the climb to allow the engine to cool down and continued toward the pass, which resulted in reduced terrain
noticed flames below the right door; the flames grew and eventually consumed and destroyed the airplane.16 ... 4 miles from the airport, the glider began to sink about 1,000 ft per minute. He attempted to restart the engine but was unsuccessful in the limited time available.
17 ... was taking off when he noticed the engine sounded 'a little rough'; as he turned downwind, he started to smell smoke. He reported that he shut down the engine and returned for an uneventful landing. When the motor glider stopped, the pilot
configuration engine again lost power from 6,500 rpm to approximately 4,300 rpm.18 the glider encountered sink and he turned on the electric motor, but it produced “no thrust.”
19 The engine started but was not producing the expected power. The pilot thought he had a fuel problem and was not aware that the propeller was still in a feathered condition.
20 The pilot, who is also the designer and builder of the experimental motorglider, was making his second flight after having completed a number of high-speed taxi tests ... On the accident flight, immediately after takeoff, the pusher-
21 The pilot set up for a landing, and then deployed the glider's sustainer engine. The engine did not start, …
__________________________________________________________________ >>>>>
Asking "who's at fault: the pilot or the engine?" does not address the subject of this thread: "Are motorgliders safer than towed gliders?"
We can't answer that question with certainty. But we shouldn't ignore anecdotal data that points to the need for extra vigilance.
Dan,
Let's review what you wrote:
"Well, you could look at accident RATES rather than NUMBERS. I would bet the rates are higher for motor gliders but I'd also bet that the higher numbers are due to higher complexity and, possibly, pilots who are not always capable of handling the additional complexity."
Now, are you saying that these RATES are unprovable? Seriously? BTW, a "rate" IS a number, so what you wrote is a direct contradiction with itself. This is not that easy to do, but you did it.
Again, your use of the phrase "I will bet" is not "I have the evidence that PROVES." Second-order partial differential equations are an interesting topic, but not germane here. For further reading try this:
http://www.personal.psu.edu/sxt104/class/Math251/Notes-PDE%20pt1.pdf
Tom 2G
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