About a year ago, I suggested pilots that always make it back to their airport were notEric, what challenge is there to motorgliding? You are a MG guy, most MG guys and gals do not fly at the same risk level as up PURIST! OK, there you go again, trying to tell the glider world that getting home is not challenging! What is so challenging
challenging themselves. A short article by Adam Woolley makes the same point, but more
effectively:
https://mailchi.mp/wingsandwheels/overcoming-fear?e=4223526f26
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
On Monday, October 24, 2022 at 4:39:31 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:about pressing the start button? I guess getting home for dinner presents more challenges than flying without the get me out of here propeller or turbine. Getting home in a pure glider is much more challenging than pressing that don't be late for dinner
About a year ago, I suggested pilots that always make it back to their airport were not
challenging themselves. A short article by Adam Woolley makes the same point, but more
effectively:
https://mailchi.mp/wingsandwheels/overcoming-fear?e=4223526f26
--Eric, what challenge is there to motorgliding? You are a MG guy, most MG guys and gals do not fly at the same risk level as up PURIST! OK, there you go again, trying to tell the glider world that getting home is not challenging! What is so challenging
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
On Monday, October 24, 2022 at 3:48:09 PM UTC-6, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:challenging about pressing the start button? I guess getting home for dinner presents more challenges than flying without the get me out of here propeller or turbine. Getting home in a pure glider is much more challenging than pressing that don't be late
On Monday, October 24, 2022 at 4:39:31 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
About a year ago, I suggested pilots that always make it back to their airport were not
challenging themselves. A short article by Adam Woolley makes the same point, but more
effectively:
https://mailchi.mp/wingsandwheels/overcoming-fear?e=4223526f26
--Eric, what challenge is there to motorgliding? You are a MG guy, most MG guys and gals do not fly at the same risk level as up PURIST! OK, there you go again, trying to tell the glider world that getting home is not challenging! What is so
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
Bob, it appears you have the mistaken idea that motorglider pilots rely on the ability to "relight" the motor in the air to get back home, thus reducing their risk, when in fact the training is to NOT rely on the motor to start, and thus to treat it asa pure glider when deciding on where and how to make it back home. There should be no difference in the decision making process between a pure glider and a motor glider when it comes to where and how far away to fly.
On Monday, October 24, 2022 at 5:55:45 PM UTC-4, johngf...@gmail.com wrote:challenging about pressing the start button? I guess getting home for dinner presents more challenges than flying without the get me out of here propeller or turbine. Getting home in a pure glider is much more challenging than pressing that don't be late
On Monday, October 24, 2022 at 3:48:09 PM UTC-6, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, October 24, 2022 at 4:39:31 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
About a year ago, I suggested pilots that always make it back to their airport were not
challenging themselves. A short article by Adam Woolley makes the same point, but more
effectively:
https://mailchi.mp/wingsandwheels/overcoming-fear?e=4223526f26
--Eric, what challenge is there to motorgliding? You are a MG guy, most MG guys and gals do not fly at the same risk level as up PURIST! OK, there you go again, trying to tell the glider world that getting home is not challenging! What is so
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
as a pure glider when deciding on where and how to make it back home. There should be no difference in the decision making process between a pure glider and a motor glider when it comes to where and how far away to fly.Bob, it appears you have the mistaken idea that motorglider pilots rely on the ability to "relight" the motor in the air to get back home, thus reducing their risk, when in fact the training is to NOT rely on the motor to start, and thus to treat it
John, you must be a motorglider guy, tell me it isn't so! The biggest challenge any glider pilot can have is getting back home with no power. Yes, you guys, assuming you are one, do not have that engine as a decoration, but as a means to get back, uspurist do not have that ability. Be my guest, come on down and fly with me, I will buy you fuel and food. Old Bob, The Purist
On Monday, October 24, 2022 at 4:03:20 PM UTC-6, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:challenging about pressing the start button? I guess getting home for dinner presents more challenges than flying without the get me out of here propeller or turbine. Getting home in a pure glider is much more challenging than pressing that don't be late
On Monday, October 24, 2022 at 5:55:45 PM UTC-4, johngf...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, October 24, 2022 at 3:48:09 PM UTC-6, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, October 24, 2022 at 4:39:31 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
About a year ago, I suggested pilots that always make it back to their airport were not
challenging themselves. A short article by Adam Woolley makes the same point, but more
effectively:
https://mailchi.mp/wingsandwheels/overcoming-fear?e=4223526f26
--Eric, what challenge is there to motorgliding? You are a MG guy, most MG guys and gals do not fly at the same risk level as up PURIST! OK, there you go again, trying to tell the glider world that getting home is not challenging! What is so
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
it as a pure glider when deciding on where and how to make it back home. There should be no difference in the decision making process between a pure glider and a motor glider when it comes to where and how far away to fly.Bob, it appears you have the mistaken idea that motorglider pilots rely on the ability to "relight" the motor in the air to get back home, thus reducing their risk, when in fact the training is to NOT rely on the motor to start, and thus to treat
purist do not have that ability. Be my guest, come on down and fly with me, I will buy you fuel and food. Old Bob, The PuristJohn, you must be a motorglider guy, tell me it isn't so! The biggest challenge any glider pilot can have is getting back home with no power. Yes, you guys, assuming you are one, do not have that engine as a decoration, but as a means to get back, us
I'm not a motor glider pilot. I fly a 1966 Bolkow Phoebus.Glad to hear that you are a purist, no shame at all, actually you should be very proud. When a purist completes a flight and returns back home it is an accomplishment not like a motorglider, making a flight and having to use the engine to get back home,
On Monday, October 24, 2022 at 4:39:31 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:about pressing the start button? I guess getting home for dinner presents more challenges than flying without the get me out of here propeller or turbine. Getting home in a pure glider is much more challenging than pressing that don't be late for dinner
About a year ago, I suggested pilots that always make it back to their airport were notEric, what challenge is there to motorgliding? You are a MG guy, most MG guys and gals do not fly at the same risk level as up PURIST! OK, there you go again, trying to tell the glider world that getting home is not challenging! What is so challenging
challenging themselves. A short article by Adam Woolley makes the same point, but more
effectively:
https://mailchi.mp/wingsandwheels/overcoming-fear?e=4223526f26
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
On Monday, October 24, 2022 at 5:55:45 PM UTC-4, johngf...@gmail.com wrote:...
John, you must be a motorglider guy, tell me it isn't so! The biggest challenge any glider pilot can have is getting back home with no power. Yes, you guys, assuming you are one, do not have that engine as a decoration, but as a means to get back, uspurist do not have that ability. Be my guest, come on down and fly with me, I will buy you fuel and food. Old Bob, The Purist
purist do not have that ability. Be my guest, come on down and fly with me, I will buy you fuel and food. Old Bob, The PuristJohn, you must be a motorglider guy, tell me it isn't so! The biggest challenge any glider pilot can have is getting back home with no power. Yes, you guys, assuming you are one, do not have that engine as a decoration, but as a means to get back, us
then talking about what a great accomplishment it was. Actually it was a failure, the pilot had to be rescued by the motor, a PURIST does not have that luxury, we play the cards that we have been dealt. Flying a motorglider is like living the life of aI'm not a motor glider pilot. I fly a 1966 Bolkow Phoebus.Glad to hear that you are a purist, no shame at all, actually you should be very proud. When a purist completes a flight and returns back home it is an accomplishment not like a motorglider, making a flight and having to use the engine to get back home,
On 10/24/2022 5:44 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:Good flight, but failed to make it home without power assistance, Failure! OBTP
When a purist completes a flight and returns back home it is an accomplishment not like
a motorglider, making a flight and having to use the engine to get back home, then talking
about what a great accomplishment it was. Actually it was a failure, the pilot had to be
rescued by the motor, a PURIST does not have that luxury, we play the cards that we have
been dealt.
Do you think Gordon Boettger was a failure on Saturday?
https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?dsId=9230275
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
Bob, it appears you have the mistaken idea that motorglider pilots rely on the ability to "relight" the motor in the air to get back home, thus reducing their risk, when in fact the training is to NOT rely on the motor to start, and thus to treat it asa pure glider when deciding on where and how to make it back home. There should be no difference in the decision making process between a pure glider and a motor glider when it comes to where and how far away to fly.
Bob, it appears you have the mistaken idea that motorglider pilots
rely on the ability to "relight" the motor in the air to get back
home, thus reducing their risk, when in fact the training is to NOT
rely on the motor to start, and thus to treat it as a pure glider when
deciding on where and how to make it back home. There should be no
difference in the decision making process between a pure glider and a
motor glider when it comes to where and how far away to fly.
"There should be no difference in the decision making" etc.
But there is a difference and denying it doesn't change the fact that
there is a difference.
Tom BravoMike
On Monday, October 24, 2022 at 3:48:09 PM UTC-6, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:about pressing the start button? I guess getting home for dinner presents more challenges than flying without the get me out of here propeller or turbine. Getting home in a pure glider is much more challenging than pressing that don't be late for dinner
On Monday, October 24, 2022 at 4:39:31 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
About a year ago, I suggested pilots that always make it back to their airport were notEric, what challenge is there to motorgliding? You are a MG guy, most MG guys and gals do not fly at the same risk level as up PURIST! OK, there you go again, trying to tell the glider world that getting home is not challenging! What is so challenging
challenging themselves. A short article by Adam Woolley makes the same point, but more
effectively:
https://mailchi.mp/wingsandwheels/overcoming-fear?e=4223526f26
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
Bob, it appears you have the mistaken idea that motorglider pilots rely on the ability to "relight" the motor in the air to get back home, thus reducing their risk, when in fact the training is to NOT rely on the motor to start, and thus to treat it asa pure glider when deciding on where and how to make it back home. There should be no difference in the decision making process between a pure glider and a motor glider when it comes to where and how far away to fly.
On Monday, October 24, 2022 at 4:39:31 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:... Getting home in a pure glider is much more challenging than pressing that don't be
About a year ago, I suggested pilots that always make it back to their airport were not
challenging themselves. A short article by Adam Woolley makes the same point, but more
effectively:
https://mailchi.mp/wingsandwheels/overcoming-fear?e=4223526f26
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
On 10/24/2022 2:47 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:Eric, I have been flying gliders for 45 plus years, and I have landed out many times, once in a prison yard, that was a good one! What you are missing is the fundamental goal for glider pilots, getting back to the takeoff location, is that not what even
On Monday, October 24, 2022 at 4:39:31 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:... Getting home in a pure glider is much more challenging than pressing that don't be
About a year ago, I suggested pilots that always make it back to their airport were not
challenging themselves. A short article by Adam Woolley makes the same point, but more
effectively:
https://mailchi.mp/wingsandwheels/overcoming-fear?e=4223526f26
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
late for dinner button. Old Bob, The Purist
Nonsense! And you've proven it with 5 years of flying, and no retrieves. How much can you
be challenging yourself, if you always succeed, year after year? If getting home is the
goal, all a pilot has to do is stay close enough to home, to returning is never in doubt.
There's nothing inherently wrong with making "getting home" your soaring goal, but it's
not a challenging goal. I flew towed gliders for 2500 hours - I know how to make them
work. I can fly my motorglider so I never need the engine to get home, but WOW! what a
waste soaring opportunities that would be!
Motorgliders: more soaring, better soaring.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
Getting home is the goal, anything less is a failure, if it were a grading scale the get home would be 100% and the > failure to get back with sustainer or propulsion would be 60%, Please don't try and discount the success of pure > flight. Anybody canget home with a Drag Queen,
On 10/25/2022 2:55 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:can get home with a Drag Queen,
Getting home is the goal, anything less is a failure, if it were a grading scale the get home would be 100% and the > failure to get back with sustainer or propulsion would be 60%, Please don't try and discount the success of pure > flight. Anybody
One last (maybe) time:
*ANYONE* can get home in a towed glider by doing what you do: stay close enough to home so
that success is certain. It doesn't take many hours in a towed glider to figure that out!
Getting home by soaring is YOUR top priority goal, but it's not mine, or that of most (not
all) MG pilots; after all, most MG pilots started as towed pilots, so they learned how to
get a glider home reliably without power long before they got a MG. They use an engine
because they have an engine; if they didn't have an engine, they'd stay closer to home
than they do in a MG.
Gordon Boettger's flight on Saturday far exceeds any flight you or I have made in the last
5 years. If that flight is a failure, most of us are failures, towed or powered. He flew
until the weather stopped him, while you and I land before the day is done. I wish I'd
been in the back seat of that Arcus J!
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
Very well said Eric. While I can understand the purist thing that OBTP fixates on, it has nothing to do with getting back home. Getting back home is a bonus in pure or MG, but shouldn’t be the main goal. It contradicts the idea of xc soaring in whichthe goal is to try to fly as far or as fast as possible beyond glide range or guaranteed return. In fact I am not sure if most of the flights that OBTP posts to OLC are XC flights, only those he got outside of glide range are XC flights. In some places
That said, I consider my last flight a failure not only because I didn’t made it home, but because I failed my expectations and failed to make it to a place from which a retrieve will be easier.can get home with a Drag Queen,
Ramy
On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 4:46:03 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 10/25/2022 2:55 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
Getting home is the goal, anything less is a failure, if it were a grading scale the get home would be 100% and the > failure to get back with sustainer or propulsion would be 60%, Please don't try and discount the success of pure > flight. Anybody
NO! Straight out flights are not failures, I love straight out flights, they are a flight with a goal in mind. If someone said that they were going to get a silver badge like the old days then you had to land at a destination 30 plus miles away, and whenOne last (maybe) time:
*ANYONE* can get home in a towed glider by doing what you do: stay close enough to home so
that success is certain. It doesn't take many hours in a towed glider to figure that out!
Getting home by soaring is YOUR top priority goal, but it's not mine, or that of most (not
all) MG pilots; after all, most MG pilots started as towed pilots, so they learned how to
get a glider home reliably without power long before they got a MG. They use an engine
because they have an engine; if they didn't have an engine, they'd stay closer to home
than they do in a MG.
Gordon Boettger's flight on Saturday far exceeds any flight you or I have made in the last
5 years. If that flight is a failure, most of us are failures, towed or powered. He flew
until the weather stopped him, while you and I land before the day is done. I wish I'd
been in the back seat of that Arcus J!
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
About a year ago, I suggested pilots that always make it back to their airport were not challenging themselves. A short article by Adam Woolley makes the same point, but more effectively:
https://mailchi.mp/wingsandwheels/overcoming-fear?e=4223526f26
About a year ago, I suggested pilots that always make it back to their airport were notEric, I had surgery on Tuesday, hopefully successful and I took the day off to make R look good. I flew today and made it back home again! Old Bob, The Purist
challenging themselves. A short article by Adam Woolley makes the same point, but more
effectively:
https://mailchi.mp/wingsandwheels/overcoming-fear?e=4223526f26
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
About a year ago, I suggested pilots that always make it back to their airport were not
challenging themselves. A short article by Adam Woolley makes the same point, but more
effectively:
https://mailchi.mp/wingsandwheels/overcoming-fear?e=4223526f26
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
I don’t know Bobby…..looks like Eileen thermaling techniques…..I’m going with you flew over the airport making a kitty furball and she went out on course to give you something to brag about.I finally stopped the bleeding, decided to go and I had a Kotex and rubber band just in case, too bad you were shooting. You had a much better day yesterday, I did make it back home in spite of the TFR. Old Bob, The Purist
What a wife….
R
On Thursday, October 27, 2022 at 6:46:57 PM UTC-4, R wrote:
I don’t know Bobby…..looks like Eileen thermaling techniques…..I’m going with you flew over the airport making a kitty furball and she went out on course to give you something to brag about.
What a wife….
RI finally stopped the bleeding, decided to go and I had a Kotex and rubber band just in case, too bad you were shooting. You had a much better day yesterday, I did make it back home in spite of the TFR. Old Bob, The Purist
On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 11:28:31 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:which the goal is to try to fly as far or as fast as possible beyond glide range or guaranteed return. In fact I am not sure if most of the flights that OBTP posts to OLC are XC flights, only those he got outside of glide range are XC flights. In some
Very well said Eric. While I can understand the purist thing that OBTP fixates on, it has nothing to do with getting back home. Getting back home is a bonus in pure or MG, but shouldn’t be the main goal. It contradicts the idea of xc soaring in
...That said, I consider my last flight a failure not only because I didn’t made it home, but because I failed my expectations and failed to make it to a place from which a retrieve will be easier.
Ramy
NO! Straight out flights are not failures, I love straight out flights, they are a flight with a goal in mind. If someone said that they were going to get a silver badge like the old days then you had to land at a destination 30 plus miles away, andwhen you completed that task you had a successful flight, if not, your flight failed to meet the goal. The Boettger flight was very good, I guess if you asked him he would have preferred to complete that flight without assistance of power, I think it
As a very young guy I was trying to fly my first 300K triangle in Florida with my Std. Cirrus. This was long before the electronic assistance of GPS and moving maps, we moved the sectionals that we cut into squares and stored in the side pocket. Thecamera was used to verify the turnpoints and the barograph recorded the flight. I flew all day, I could not make it back to my takeoff location and ended up landing in the playground of a state prison near Arcadia, Florida. The flight was a failure by my
Eric, as far as the area that I and a few others fly here in South Florida it is not as friendly terrain as you often depict. There are areas here where you would never want to land out, snake and gator infested swamp with coral rock would not make fora happy day, we do not have those 15K AGL conditions, sometimes we are lucky to get 3000 AGL. My last flight was I described to you the IAN aftermath flight, I wanted to fly as deep as I could into the affected area and return home without busting the
On Monday, October 24, 2022 at 4:39:31 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
About a year ago, I suggested pilots that always make it back to their airport were not
challenging themselves. A short article by Adam Woolley makes the same point, but more
effectively:
https://mailchi.mp/wingsandwheels/overcoming-fear?e=4223526f26
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
I guess I don't challenge myself because I don't land out very often.
In the last 30 years or so I have landed out once during my personal practice flying.
I fly almost exclusively crewless since Dianne would rather stay home and garden than sit at the airport waiting for me.
I have had land outs in contests sometimes.
My longest contest streak was 64 completions in a row, including 4 nationals and 2 worlds. My definition there is if everybody lands out it doesn't go on the count.
This year I had 2 field landings and one motor retrieve in 38 contest flights . Pretty poor by my standards.
It seems to me that everyone should fly in a manner that suits them and not feel like they should be measured by someone else's definitions.
Sometimes I'm flying with a motor. Other times not.
I fly the same whether with a motor or without.
FWIW
UH
On 10/27/2022 2:39 PM, Hank Nixon wrote:It is not a matter of measuring people I know and have flown with individuals that are much more talented than myself and have superior equipment. My goal was and is to do the best I can with what I have, never be ashamed of how you do and complete your
On Monday, October 24, 2022 at 4:39:31 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
About a year ago, I suggested pilots that always make it back to their airport were not
challenging themselves. A short article by Adam Woolley makes the same point, but more
effectively:
https://mailchi.mp/wingsandwheels/overcoming-fear?e=4223526f26
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
I guess I don't challenge myself because I don't land out very often.I believe, as you do, that people should fly in a manner that suits them. What I tried to
In the last 30 years or so I have landed out once during my personal practice flying.
I fly almost exclusively crewless since Dianne would rather stay home and garden than sit at the airport waiting for me.
I have had land outs in contests sometimes.
My longest contest streak was 64 completions in a row, including 4 nationals and 2 worlds. My definition there is if everybody lands out it doesn't go on the count.
This year I had 2 field landings and one motor retrieve in 38 contest flights . Pretty poor by my standards.
It seems to me that everyone should fly in a manner that suits them and not feel like they should be measured by someone else's definitions.
Sometimes I'm flying with a motor. Other times not.
I fly the same whether with a motor or without.
FWIW
UH
suggest, and Adam Woolley wrote, was that without an occasional failure to soar home, you
may not know what you are capable of. In other words, you might be suited to better
flights than you are currently experiencing. He talked about being a solid 3rd place
finisher, but found taking some extra sporting risk, he could be a winner.
You've flown enough (particularly contest flying) that you may be one of those pilots that
really does know where the edges of his competence are without pushing bit harder and
needing a retrieve/restart. I still suggest you push a bit harder when you are flying a MG
on non-contest flight. They allow you to be bolder without the irritation of a retrieve,
and maybe you'll discover a recalibration is needed.
I'm not trying to measure people; instead, I'm encouraging them to measure themselves.
It's easy to unconsciously constrain your flying so you always make it, not realizing what
you are missing. Motorglider pilots have little excuse to be so cautious they always get
home without using the motor, but a lot of them can not shake the habits and "moral
values" they learned from years of flying towed gliders before moving to a MG.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
I am glad that you admitted that the motorglider allows you to be bolder, that has been my personal opinion all along.
On 10/29/2022 2:20 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:Eric, hope you are doing well, I made it back home again yesterday, at one point I thought it was the end of the day for me, that would have been a failure. Eileen is planning on visiting a glider factory this week, hope she doesn't spend too much money.
I am glad that you admitted that the motorglider allows you to be bolder, that has been my personal opinion all along.I didn't "admit" that; instead, I've been proclaiming it for years! It's a major feature
of a motorglider. More accurately, though, an MG doesn't "allow" you to be bolder, but it
does encourage it, just as having an eager and willing crew will. Towed pilots like Ramy,
for example, are bolder than many motorglider pilots, so flying a towed glider is not an
excuse for avoiding sporting risk. There are good personal reasons for avoiding sporting
risk, and I would never denigrate an Etch-a-Sketch pilot. If you are enjoying your flying,
you are doing it right.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
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