Herb Killian posted this: ----------------------------------------------------------------

Folks, don't listen to the Pompous Purist, he has no clue. John Good wrote this today in
his daily report from Szeged, Hungary, the location of the current Worlds for 18m, 20m two
seat and Open Class.

"I checked with the contest Scoring Office today and learned that of the 82 gliders in
WGC2022, just five are unmotorized (all in 18-Meter class). I understand the reasons for
this: modern gliders carry weight well; modern pilots like the assurance of getting home,
and have the money to pay for it. But I can’t help feeling that this seems a bit “off”. I
imagine a future World Championships at which an interested but naïve spectator is a
visitor. Friendly competitors are proudly showing him their aircraft, explaining that
this is the world championship of motorless flight, and how in the right weather they race
around 500 km tasks at 130 kph using just the sun’s energy. He’s suitably impressed, and
examines one glider carefully. He’s curious about a sort of hatch on top of the fuselage,
and it's opened for him.
“So, what’s this thing inside, that looks like it has a propeller attached to it?”
“That’s the engine – all the gliders here have engines.”
“But I thought you said it was a competition of motorless flight.”
“It is – but you must have an engine to be competitive.”
“You need a motor to do motorless flight?”
“Well, we hope we don’t have to use it – but you can’t realistically expect to win
without one.”"

Herb (not Herbie), J7


--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

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On 7/28/2022 4:01 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:

Herb Killian posted this: ----------------------------------------------------------------

Folks, don't listen to the Pompous Purist, he has no clue. John Good wrote this today in
his daily report from Szeged, Hungary, the location of the current Worlds for 18m, 20m two
seat and Open Class.

"I checked with the contest Scoring Office today and learned that of the 82 gliders in
WGC2022, just five are unmotorized (all in 18-Meter class).  I understand the reasons for
this: modern gliders carry weight well; modern pilots like the assurance of getting home,
and have the money to pay for it. But I can’t help feeling that this seems a bit “off”.  I
imagine a future World Championships at which an interested but naïve spectator is a
visitor.  Friendly competitors are proudly showing him their aircraft, explaining that
this is the world championship of motorless flight, and how in the right weather they race
around 500 km tasks at 130 kph using just the sun’s energy.  He’s suitably impressed, and
examines one glider carefully.  He’s curious about a sort of hatch on top of the fuselage,
and it's opened for him.
  “So, what’s this thing inside, that looks like it has a propeller attached to it?”
  “That’s the engine – all the gliders here have engines.”
  “But I thought you said it was a competition of motorless flight.”
  “It is – but you must have an engine to be competitive.”
  “You need a motor to do motorless flight?”
  “Well, we hope we don’t have to use it – but you can’t realistically expect to win
without one.”"

Herb (not Herbie), J7

It is still a motorless competition, as the scoring begins when the motor is shut off, or
the glider releases the towplane, and ends when the glider lands or the motor is started.
The motor is not enough to win, as you must also have:

- a modern glider with large ballast capacity
- a support crew to help you during the flight by monitoring the weather and the other
competitors
- the ability, the temperament, and courage to fly in huge gaggles
- teammate(s) that are willing to sacrifice their score to help you maximize yours

The tasks were very different decades ago, when no one had a motor, and being able to fly
in weak lift was important on almost every task. Modern tasking doesn't involve nearly as
much weak weather, so the extra weight of the motor is not a detriment. GPS loggers have
really changed the tasks, too.

Crews would often follow their glider around the task, or go to where they anticipated an
outlanding, so the pilot could be retrieved and returned to the contest airport ASAP. The
pilot would rest or sleep during the drive back, to be ready for the next day.

So, many changes in WGC comps, not just more gliders with motors, and I don't think the
motors are the most significant change in WGC competitions.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

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On 7/28/2022 7:37 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:

"Modern tasking doesn't involve nearly as much weak weather"

- say what? Is that due to climate change, or do they use
weather-altering devices?

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Well, that might be the future of our sport - but not this year. Did any of the US Championships this year get won by a motor glider or sustainer? I think not.
ROY

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The Seniors, but those pilots ...pssst....a bunch of geezers. One of them is even at the Worlds...psssst.


R

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"Modern tasking doesn't involve nearly as much weak weather"

- say what? Is that due to climate change, or do they use
weather-altering devices?

Not necessarily climate change. What has happened is that aerodynamic design has improved to the point that a heavier wing loading has added enough efficiency to minimize the penalties inherent in weaker lift. That's not to say that a motorglider pilot
wouldn't like to dump the extra weight to climb out in a "bug fart" without being forced to officially "end" the soaring portion of the flight by powering up, but overall, the extra weight, combined with larger spans and better laminar flow control has
made what was once deemed "weak" conditions manageable. And in the hands of a master pilot, heavier wing loading has become an advantage in nearly all conditions.

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On 7/28/2022 5:04 PM, Moshe Braner wrote:

On 7/28/2022 7:37 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:

"Modern tasking doesn't involve nearly as much weak weather"

- say what?  Is that due to climate change, or do they use weather-altering devices?

For example, we don't have distance tasks anymore. When we did, pilots would take off as
soon as they could stay up, fly straight out until they landed, using weak lift at the
start and finish of the day.

Speed tasks used to have assigned waypoints, and you had to go to the waypoint, even if
conditions were weak there, but now, instead of a waypoint, it's typically an area,
allowing the pilot to more easily avoid weak conditions.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

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On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 7:01:46 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

Herb Killian posted this: ----------------------------------------------------------------

Folks, don't listen to the Pompous Purist, he has no clue. John Good wrote this today in
his daily report from Szeged, Hungary, the location of the current Worlds for 18m, 20m two
seat and Open Class.

"I checked with the contest Scoring Office today and learned that of the 82 gliders in
WGC2022, just five are unmotorized (all in 18-Meter class). I understand the reasons for
this: modern gliders carry weight well; modern pilots like the assurance of getting home,
and have the money to pay for it. But I can’t help feeling that this seems a bit “off”. I
imagine a future World Championships at which an interested but naïve spectator is a
visitor. Friendly competitors are proudly showing him their aircraft, explaining that
this is the world championship of motorless flight, and how in the right weather they race
around 500 km tasks at 130 kph using just the sun’s energy. He’s suitably impressed, and
examines one glider carefully. He’s curious about a sort of hatch on top of the fuselage,
and it's opened for him.
“So, what’s this thing inside, that looks like it has a propeller attached to it?”
“That’s the engine – all the gliders here have engines.”
“But I thought you said it was a competition of motorless flight.”
“It is – but you must have an engine to be competitive.”
“You need a motor to do motorless flight?”
“Well, we hope we don’t have to use it – but you can’t realistically expect to win
without one.”"

Herb (not Herbie), J7

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Herbie, I am somewhat surprised that the motorglider pukes continue to make excuses for the ugly, and I do mean ugly looking windmill sticking out the top of the fuselage of a so called glider. Just the other day a guy came to the gliderport with his
motorglider and one of our members had his pet bulldog at the hangar . The motorglider guy parked his fancy new ship enclosed in the trailer next to the hangar entrance and soon, "Ballast" the name of the bulldog walked from the hangar to inspect the new
arrival. Without hesitation Ballast raised his leg and urinated on the motorglider, several of us were laughing and someone asked the owner if Ballast was trained to do something like that ? My reply was something like this, Ballast has a lot of class,
never does that to a purist trailer. Old Bob, The Purist

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On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 8:37:34 PM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:

Well, that might be the future of our sport - but not this year. Did any of the US Championships this year get won by a motor glider or sustainer? I think not.
ROY

1st and 2nd in 18Meter were gliders without engines .Our most competitive class. Open winner had no engine.
UH

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On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 8:37:34 PM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:

Well, that might be the future of our sport - but not this year. Did any of the US Championships this year get won by a motor glider or sustainer? I think not.
ROY

Further look- all US Nationals were won by gliders without power systems.
UH

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On 7/28/2022 4:01 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:

Herb Killian posted this: ----------------------------------------------------------------

Folks, don't listen to the Pompous Purist, he has no clue. John Good wrote this today in
his daily report from Szeged, Hungary, the location of the current Worlds for 18m, 20m two
seat and Open Class.

"I checked with the contest Scoring Office today and learned that of the 82 gliders in
WGC2022, just five are unmotorized (all in 18-Meter class).  I understand the reasons for
this: modern gliders carry weight well; modern pilots like the assurance of getting home,
and have the money to pay for it. But I can’t help feeling that this seems a bit “off”.  I
imagine a future World Championships at which an interested but naïve spectator is a
visitor.  Friendly competitors are proudly showing him their aircraft, explaining that
this is the world championship of motorless flight, and how in the right weather they race
around 500 km tasks at 130 kph using just the sun’s energy.  He’s suitably impressed, and
examines one glider carefully.  He’s curious about a sort of hatch on top of the fuselage,
and it's opened for him.
  “So, what’s this thing inside, that looks like it has a propeller attached to it?”
  “That’s the engine – all the gliders here have engines.”
  “But I thought you said it was a competition of motorless flight.”
  “It is – but you must have an engine to be competitive.”
  “You need a motor to do motorless flight?”
  “Well, we hope we don’t have to use it – but you can’t realistically expect to win
without one.”"

Herb (not Herbie), J7

The motor is not universal in all WGC classes: the Club, Standard, and 15 Meter classes at
the 2021 WGC had a total of 3 motorgliders out 95 entries. I attribute this to weak
weather performance suffering significantly from the weight of a motor system in the 15
meter wingspan classes.

In the larger span classes, where the extra weight is not so detrimental, my speculation
is the motor is used as a convenience, and not a contribution to winning. It would be most
informative to hear the reasons for choosing a motorglider from competitors in the WGC
(and also from the five that did not fly a motorglider).

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

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The question is an interesting one, but the answer is complicated...especially to those who do not race.
If you want to better understand, you'll need to do some homework.
Here we go with two examples.
Look up on OLC ...
06/11/16 bottom of page, my name
03/13/22 my name

Note: Trace altitudes are in Meters Above Sea Level, not terrain.

Like I said, you have to do your homework. Try to figure out my decisions to win Cordele in 2016 or stay in contention at the Seniors this year. Figure this puzzle out and I'll take you to the next level to help you better understand John Good report.

R

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Yeah you’re not going to catch me in a motor glider. I won the Region 8 sports class in my old ASW-20. I have my sights set on the National Sports class competition next year.

Charlie
On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 8:15:30 AM UTC-7, R wrote:

The question is an interesting one, but the answer is complicated...especially to those who do not race.
If you want to better understand, you'll need to do some homework.
Here we go with two examples.
Look up on OLC ...
06/11/16 bottom of page, my name
03/13/22 my name

Note: Trace altitudes are in Meters Above Sea Level, not terrain.

Like I said, you have to do your homework. Try to figure out my decisions to win Cordele in 2016 or stay in contention at the Seniors this year. Figure this puzzle out and I'll take you to the next level to help you better understand John Good report.

R

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Choosing the most competitive glider for a handicapped, non-ballast class is a very
different calculation than choosing the most competitive one for an FAI class, which is
why there were no ASW-20s in the WGC 15 Meter class last year 8^)

On 7/29/2022 8:28 AM, Charles Longley wrote:

Yeah you’re not going to catch me in a motor glider. I won the Region 8 sports class in my old ASW-20. I have my sights set on the National Sports class competition next year.

Charlie
On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 8:15:30 AM UTC-7, R wrote:

The question is an interesting one, but the answer is complicated...especially to those who do not race.
If you want to better understand, you'll need to do some homework.
Here we go with two examples.
Look up on OLC ...
06/11/16 bottom of page, my name
03/13/22 my name

Note: Trace altitudes are in Meters Above Sea Level, not terrain.

Like I said, you have to do your homework. Try to figure out my decisions to win Cordele in 2016 or stay in contention at the Seniors this year. Figure this puzzle out and I'll take you to the next level to help you better understand John Good report.

R

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

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On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 8:59:58 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:

Choosing the most competitive glider for a handicapped, non-ballast class is a very
different calculation than choosing the most competitive one for an FAI class, which is
why there were no ASW-20s in the WGC 15 Meter class last year 8^)
On 7/29/2022 8:28 AM, Charles Longley wrote:

Yeah you’re not going to catch me in a motor glider. I won the Region 8 sports class in my old ASW-20. I have my sights set on the National Sports class competition next year.

Charlie
On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 8:15:30 AM UTC-7, R wrote:

The question is an interesting one, but the answer is complicated...especially to those who do not race.
If you want to better understand, you'll need to do some homework.
Here we go with two examples.
Look up on OLC ...
06/11/16 bottom of page, my name
03/13/22 my name

Note: Trace altitudes are in Meters Above Sea Level, not terrain.

Like I said, you have to do your homework. Try to figure out my decisions to win Cordele in 2016 or stay in contention at the Seniors this year. Figure this puzzle out and I'll take you to the next level to help you better understand John Good

report.

R

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Yep, it's just too old of a design. I tried the 15-meter class. While I am competitive, the best I could hope for is 3rd or 4th. Not sure I want to spend the money to compete in a different class.

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On 7/29/2022 8:15 AM, R wrote:

The question is an interesting one, but the answer is complicated...especially to those who do not race.
If you want to better understand, you'll need to do some homework.
Here we go with two examples.
Look up on OLC ...
06/11/16 bottom of page, my name
03/13/22 my name

Note: Trace altitudes are in Meters Above Sea Level, not terrain.

Like I said, you have to do your homework. Try to figure out my decisions to win Cordele in 2016 or stay in contention at the Seniors this year. Figure this puzzle out and I'll take you to the next level to help you better understand John Good report.

R

Why not just tell us your thinking, and reference your flights to support it? Since the
John's remarks were about a WGC event, start off by telling us how your thinking directly
applies to the event in question, especially since the Seniors is run quite differently,
being handicapped.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

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WGC tasking is different than Regional or even National USA contests. WGC tasks are usually much harder to complete on marginal days. Landouts are common at the world level. Having a motor in your glider at a WGC hopefully gets you back home and
alleviates long ground retrieve(s). Getting home without a ground retrieve is saved personal energy and focus (pilot and crew) that is reserved for flying the next day's task. As pointed out, motors are common in the larger gliders that are a handful
digging out of field, putting in the box, and driving back to the gilderport (then cleaning and reassembling the next morning).
Anybody that thinks retrieves during a contest is nostalgic or fun isn't properly focused on winning.
Craig

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On 7/29/2022 9:26 AM, Charles Longley wrote:

On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 8:59:58 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:

Choosing the most competitive glider for a handicapped, non-ballast class is a very
different calculation than choosing the most competitive one for an FAI class, which is
why there were no ASW-20s in the WGC 15 Meter class last year 8^)
On 7/29/2022 8:28 AM, Charles Longley wrote:

Yeah you’re not going to catch me in a motor glider. I won the Region 8 sports class in my old ASW-20. I have my sights set on the National Sports class competition next year.

Charlie
On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 8:15:30 AM UTC-7, R wrote:

The question is an interesting one, but the answer is complicated...especially to those who do not race.
If you want to better understand, you'll need to do some homework.
Here we go with two examples.
Look up on OLC ...
06/11/16 bottom of page, my name
03/13/22 my name

Note: Trace altitudes are in Meters Above Sea Level, not terrain.

Like I said, you have to do your homework. Try to figure out my decisions to win Cordele in 2016 or stay in contention at the Seniors this year. Figure this puzzle out and I'll take you to the next level to help you better understand John Good

report.

R

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Yep, it's just too old of a design. I tried the 15-meter class. While I am competitive, the best I could hope for is 3rd or 4th. Not sure I want to spend the money to compete in a different class.

I loved my ASW 20, but the ASW27 took things to a new level in racing. Schleicher hasn't
made a 15M glider since then. I don't count the AS33 as a 15 M glider, since it's not
optimized for that span.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

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Is not that lineal.
The factories still need to sell gliders to survive. So they design for weekend convenience too and not only for WGC.
There are a purebreed fans of course, but that market is small in comparison. On the WGC2018 (18m, open and two seater) some of the pilots with FES removed the propellers and taped the cone.
There was very good weather to give those points for free.
Also, is not the same to land out with an EB29R than a Jantar STD 2. The risk of hitting a pothole or groundloop because of the crops and the later cost associated with that is something to consider.
Of course that if you are a high tier pilot on a important competition, the motor is only non-jettison ballast and no a propulsion mean.

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John Good is a very good friend and our CD for the Senior Soaring Championships that I have had the privilege to be it's CM for almost 10 years. However, John has landed two aircraft in the water over the last couple of years. Flying a ship with a
sustainer/self-launch capability allows you to fly on days you may not fly cross-country due to weak weather or, for self launchers, fly on days you cannot fly get a tow. To get better in any type of flying you need repetitions and practicing the right
things. Whether you have a motor or not, getting airborne and working on the weak parts of your flying tool box makes the biggest difference. A motor can allow you to fly cross country on weaker days, improving your weak weather flying. At the 20
Meter Nationals, having a motor was not an advantage. The Duo's without a motor did have the advantage of lower wing loading.

So, "Do you need a motor to win competitions?", no, but you do need to practice in all types of weather conditions and fly a lot. Flying more kilometres (and practicing the right way) and competing in more competitions will improve your flying skills,
and hopefully, your standing on the OLC or the score sheet.

Charlie and Eric, come out to the Seniors, love to have you. We do have 5 Guest entries.

Sincerely,
Rich Owen

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On 7/29/2022 11:22 AM, Richard Owen wrote:

John Good is a very good friend and our CD for the Senior Soaring Championships that I have had the privilege to be it's CM for almost 10 years. However, John has landed two aircraft in the water over the last couple of years. Flying a ship with a

sustainer/self-launch capability allows you to fly on days you may not fly cross-country due to weak weather or, for self launchers, fly on days you cannot fly get a tow. To get better in any type of flying you need repetitions and practicing the right
things. Whether you have a motor or not, getting airborne and working on the weak parts of your flying tool box makes the biggest difference. A motor can allow you to fly cross country on weaker days, improving your weak weather flying. At the 20
Meter Nationals, having a motor was not an advantage. The Duo's without a motor did have the advantage of lower wing loading.

So, "Do you need a motor to win competitions?", no, but you do need to practice in all types of weather conditions and fly a lot. Flying more kilometres (and practicing the right way) and competing in more competitions will improve your flying skills,

and hopefully, your standing on the OLC or the score sheet.

Charlie and Eric, come out to the Seniors, love to have you. We do have 5 Guest entries.

Sincerely,
Rich Owen

Sounds like John needs one of those motor thingies! I'd love to fly in The Seniors, as I
enjoyed the only time I did get the chance in 1998. Don't save a guest spot for me, as I
haven't needed one of those for 25 years :^) [or should it be :^( ?] Maybe next year, and
then afterwards, I could go down to Lake Hibiscus and get one of those free tows and a
burger that Old Bob keeps offering. Sure, I'd have to tape the engine bay doors shut to
qualify for the tow, but it'd be worth it, because I'd take a _really_ high tow.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

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On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 3:49:10 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 7/29/2022 11:22 AM, Richard Owen wrote:

John Good is a very good friend and our CD for the Senior Soaring Championships that I have had the privilege to be it's CM for almost 10 years. However, John has landed two aircraft in the water over the last couple of years. Flying a ship with a

sustainer/self-launch capability allows you to fly on days you may not fly cross-country due to weak weather or, for self launchers, fly on days you cannot fly get a tow. To get better in any type of flying you need repetitions and practicing the right
things. Whether you have a motor or not, getting airborne and working on the weak parts of your flying tool box makes the biggest difference. A motor can allow you to fly cross country on weaker days, improving your weak weather flying. At the 20 Meter
Nationals, having a motor was not an advantage. The Duo's without a motor did have the advantage of lower wing loading.

So, "Do you need a motor to win competitions?", no, but you do need to practice in all types of weather conditions and fly a lot. Flying more kilometres (and practicing the right way) and competing in more competitions will improve your flying skills,

and hopefully, your standing on the OLC or the score sheet.

Charlie and Eric, come out to the Seniors, love to have you. We do have 5 Guest entries.

Sincerely,
Rich Owen

Sounds like John needs one of those motor thingies! I'd love to fly in The Seniors, as I
enjoyed the only time I did get the chance in 1998. Don't save a guest spot for me, as I
haven't needed one of those for 25 years :^) [or should it be :^( ?] Maybe next year, and
then afterwards, I could go down to Lake Hibiscus and get one of those free tows and a
burger that Old Bob keeps offering. Sure, I'd have to tape the engine bay doors shut to
qualify for the tow, but it'd be worth it, because I'd take a _really_ high tow.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, we are reserving a spot for you and will make sure that the burger is nothing less than Kobe Beef. I certainly will be giving you and other motorglider guest a free tow, and when you show up with that motorglider trailer I will make sure that
Ballast is locked up and not available to piss on the trailer. I keep waiting for Henry to show up with his new motorglider but he is at this point a no show, maybe he is concerned about the dog. If you could encourage Herbie and a few other motorglider
guys and gals to come on down to the best soaring site in Florida we could certainly have some good times.
We did have a nice guest drop in this week from that leftist state of California, and he flies an ASW24, a very nice guy and hopefully he enjoyed his visit to New Hibiscus. Now about that Seniors invitation from Rich, you should know that you would not
qualify for the grand prize, that being the bets bottle of Rum available for the Purist Award. Old Bob, The Purist

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On Friday, 29 July 2022 at 16:33:20 UTC+3, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 7/28/2022 4:01 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
The motor is not universal in all WGC classes: the Club, Standard, and 15 Meter classes at
the 2021 WGC had a total of 3 motorgliders out 95 entries. I attribute this to weak
weather performance suffering significantly from the weight of a motor system in the 15
meter wingspan classes.

2022 std. class Europeans were won by one of few sustainers, a Discus 2T, in rather poor weather conditions.

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On 7/29/2022 11:41 PM, krasw wrote:

On Friday, 29 July 2022 at 16:33:20 UTC+3, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 7/28/2022 4:01 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
The motor is not universal in all WGC classes: the Club, Standard, and 15 Meter classes at
the 2021 WGC had a total of 3 motorgliders out 95 entries. I attribute this to weak
weather performance suffering significantly from the weight of a motor system in the 15
meter wingspan classes.

2022 std. class Europeans were won by one of few sustainers, a Discus 2T, in rather poor weather conditions.

It would be interesting to hear from the pilot about why he chose to use that glider.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

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On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 7:43:19 AM UTC-5, Hank Nixon wrote:

On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 8:37:34 PM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:

Well, that might be the future of our sport - but not this year. Did any of the US Championships this year get won by a motor glider or sustainer? I think not.
ROY

Further look- all US Nationals were won by gliders without power systems.
UH

Hank, maybe the Europeans are just a couple of years ahead of us? Just look at the gliders being inported to the US right now, seems they mostly have some kind of engine, including electric ones. We all have heard that over 80% of new manufactured
gliders currently are ordered with engines. Regarding the insults the Pompous Purist is hurling at some of us: like most older pilots, I have flown pure gliders for 40 years and over more than 50,000 mi documented. Why I and some others on r.a.s. are
being demeaned, belittled, attacked with a slew of invective is beyond me. I think I have proven that I can fly motorless gliders just fine.

Herb

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On Saturday, 30 July 2022 at 16:01:44 UTC+3, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 7/29/2022 11:41 PM, krasw wrote:

On Friday, 29 July 2022 at 16:33:20 UTC+3, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 7/28/2022 4:01 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
The motor is not universal in all WGC classes: the Club, Standard, and 15 Meter classes at
the 2021 WGC had a total of 3 motorgliders out 95 entries. I attribute this to weak
weather performance suffering significantly from the weight of a motor system in the 15
meter wingspan classes.

2022 std. class Europeans were won by one of few sustainers, a Discus 2T, in rather poor weather conditions.

It would be interesting to hear from the pilot about why he chose to use that glider.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

He owns it. Knowing the guy, he flies a lot of long tasks besides competitions, and with that (or any) kind of usage the sustainer is no-brainer.

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On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 8:38:54 AM UTC-4, Herbert Kilian wrote:

On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 7:43:19 AM UTC-5, Hank Nixon wrote:

On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 8:37:34 PM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:

Well, that might be the future of our sport - but not this year. Did any of the US Championships this year get won by a motor glider or sustainer? I think not.
ROY

Further look- all US Nationals were won by gliders without power systems. UH

Hank, maybe the Europeans are just a couple of years ahead of us? Just look at the gliders being inported to the US right now, seems they mostly have some kind of engine, including electric ones. We all have heard that over 80% of new manufactured

gliders currently are ordered with engines. Regarding the insults the Pompous Purist is hurling at some of us: like most older pilots, I have flown pure gliders for 40 years and over more than 50,000 mi documented. Why I and some others on r.a.s. are
being demeaned, belittled, attacked with a slew of invective is beyond me. I think I have proven that I can fly motorless gliders just fine.

Herb

Herbie, get a grip, so what if the new gliders are 80% motor propulsion, that only means that a lot of you guys are missing out on a great flight platform. Motorgliders have degraded this sport, taken it down to the sewer, and it really stinks. Don't
take this the wrong way Herb, but your old days of the LS4 were better suited for you than this new age motorglider stuff. The invitation still stands, come on down to the sunshine state this fall or spring and join us at Treasure Coast for the 2023
Motorglider Soaring Safari, free tows, cold beer and great hamburgers. You might jus come away with a big smile on your face and eager to return for another Safari. Old Bob, The Purist

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On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 1:56:25 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 8:38:54 AM UTC-4, Herbert Kilian wrote:

On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 7:43:19 AM UTC-5, Hank Nixon wrote:

On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 8:37:34 PM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:

Well, that might be the future of our sport - but not this year. Did any of the US Championships this year get won by a motor glider or sustainer? I think not.
ROY

Further look- all US Nationals were won by gliders without power systems.
UH

Hank, maybe the Europeans are just a couple of years ahead of us? Just look at the gliders being inported to the US right now, seems they mostly have some kind of engine, including electric ones. We all have heard that over 80% of new manufactured

gliders currently are ordered with engines. Regarding the insults the Pompous Purist is hurling at some of us: like most older pilots, I have flown pure gliders for 40 years and over more than 50,000 mi documented. Why I and some others on r.a.s. are
being demeaned, belittled, attacked with a slew of invective is beyond me. I think I have proven that I can fly motorless gliders just fine.

Herb

Herbie, get a grip, so what if the new gliders are 80% motor propulsion, that only means that a lot of you guys are missing out on a great flight platform. Motorgliders have degraded this sport, taken it down to the sewer, and it really stinks. Don't

take this the wrong way Herb, but your old days of the LS4 were better suited for you than this new age motorglider stuff. The invitation still stands, come on down to the sunshine state this fall or spring and join us at Treasure Coast for the 2023
Motorglider Soaring Safari, free tows, cold beer and great hamburgers. You might jus come away with a big smile on your face and eager to return for another Safari. Old Bob, The Purist

What, so your imaginary dog can pee on my glider? I don't think so. Bobby, you know as much about motorgliders as you know about safaris, which is nothing at all. Your continued invective about a non-existent problem reflects a major, deep-seated
emotional problem for which you need professional help.

Tom

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On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 6:51:10 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:

On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 1:56:25 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 8:38:54 AM UTC-4, Herbert Kilian wrote:

On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 7:43:19 AM UTC-5, Hank Nixon wrote:

On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 8:37:34 PM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:

Well, that might be the future of our sport - but not this year. Did any of the US Championships this year get won by a motor glider or sustainer? I think not.
ROY

Further look- all US Nationals were won by gliders without power systems.
UH

Hank, maybe the Europeans are just a couple of years ahead of us? Just look at the gliders being inported to the US right now, seems they mostly have some kind of engine, including electric ones. We all have heard that over 80% of new manufactured

gliders currently are ordered with engines. Regarding the insults the Pompous Purist is hurling at some of us: like most older pilots, I have flown pure gliders for 40 years and over more than 50,000 mi documented. Why I and some others on r.a.s. are
being demeaned, belittled, attacked with a slew of invective is beyond me. I think I have proven that I can fly motorless gliders just fine.

Herb

Herbie, get a grip, so what if the new gliders are 80% motor propulsion, that only means that a lot of you guys are missing out on a great flight platform. Motorgliders have degraded this sport, taken it down to the sewer, and it really stinks. Don't

take this the wrong way Herb, but your old days of the LS4 were better suited for you than this new age motorglider stuff. The invitation still stands, come on down to the sunshine state this fall or spring and join us at Treasure Coast for the 2023
Motorglider Soaring Safari, free tows, cold beer and great hamburgers. You might jus come away with a big smile on your face and eager to return for another Safari. Old Bob, The Purist

What, so your imaginary dog can pee on my glider? I don't think so. Bobby, you know as much about motorgliders as you know about safaris, which is nothing at all. Your continued invective about a non-existent problem reflects a major, deep-seated

emotional problem for which you need professional help.

Tom

Hey DH, the invitation for you does not exist. Old Bob, The Purist

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And how many of the US champions went on to do well in international competition?

This transition happened in sailing about a 1/2 century ago, when diesel auxiliaries became reliable. Now, in most high end and long distance competition you are *required* to have an engine. The reason is safety. You are not allowed to use it during
racing, but if something goes wrong (rig failure, man overboard, etc) it saves lives, equipment and SAR resources. Since broken gliders are overrepresented in off field landings by about 40x, the same argument can be applied here.

So, in the spirit of trolling, I propose for Old Bob's sake that future US national competitions *require* and engine. I realize it will diminish tow revenue, which he has stated is a concern of his.

On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 4:43:19 AM UTC-8, Hank Nixon wrote:

On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 8:37:34 PM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:

Well, that might be the future of our sport - but not this year. Did any of the US Championships this year get won by a motor glider or sustainer? I think not.
ROY

Further look- all US Nationals were won by gliders without power systems.
UH

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On Sunday, July 31, 2022 at 6:57:08 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

And how many of the US champions went on to do well in international competition?

This transition happened in sailing about a 1/2 century ago, when diesel auxiliaries became reliable. Now, in most high end and long distance competition you are *required* to have an engine. The reason is safety. You are not allowed to use it during

racing, but if something goes wrong (rig failure, man overboard, etc) it saves lives, equipment and SAR resources. Since broken gliders are overrepresented in off field landings by about 40x, the same argument can be applied here.

So, in the spirit of trolling, I propose for Old Bob's sake that future US national competitions *require* and engine. I realize it will diminish tow revenue, which he has stated is a concern of his.
On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 4:43:19 AM UTC-8, Hank Nixon wrote:

On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 8:37:34 PM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:

Well, that might be the future of our sport - but not this year. Did any of the US Championships this year get won by a motor glider or sustainer? I think not.
ROY

Further look- all US Nationals were won by gliders without power systems. UH

Fitch, glad you are back in the arena, actually I have missed your dry sense of humor. Keep in mind that you have a standing invitation to the 2023 Motorglider Safari planned for here in Vero Beach. You will need more than three flights posted to
qualify for the adventure. Just think, it could be you Eric, Herbie and the rest of the motorglider guys rounding out the field, Oh, That DH, 2G is not invited. Old Bob, The Purist

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On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 8:38:54 AM UTC-4, Herbert Kilian wrote:

On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 7:43:19 AM UTC-5, Hank Nixon wrote:

On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 8:37:34 PM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:

Well, that might be the future of our sport - but not this year. Did any of the US Championships this year get won by a motor glider or sustainer? I think not.
ROY

Further look- all US Nationals were won by gliders without power systems. UH

Hank, maybe the Europeans are just a couple of years ahead of us? Just look at the gliders being inported to the US right now, seems they mostly have some kind of engine, including electric ones. We all have heard that over 80% of new manufactured

gliders currently are ordered with engines. Regarding the insults the Pompous Purist is hurling at some of us: like most older pilots, I have flown pure gliders for 40 years and over more than 50,000 mi documented. Why I and some others on r.a.s. are
being demeaned, belittled, attacked with a slew of invective is beyond me. I think I have proven that I can fly motorless gliders just fine.

Herb

My observation was to show that, at least this year, a pilot did not have to have a motor to be competitive . That was the limit of my point. I own 6 gliders that were flown in contests in the last 2 years. 3 have power, 3 don't. We had fun with all of
them.
UH

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On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 4:15:12 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 6:51:10 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:

On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 1:56:25 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 8:38:54 AM UTC-4, Herbert Kilian wrote:

On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 7:43:19 AM UTC-5, Hank Nixon wrote:

On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 8:37:34 PM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:

Well, that might be the future of our sport - but not this year. Did any of the US Championships this year get won by a motor glider or sustainer? I think not.
ROY

Further look- all US Nationals were won by gliders without power systems.
UH

Hank, maybe the Europeans are just a couple of years ahead of us? Just look at the gliders being inported to the US right now, seems they mostly have some kind of engine, including electric ones. We all have heard that over 80% of new

manufactured gliders currently are ordered with engines. Regarding the insults the Pompous Purist is hurling at some of us: like most older pilots, I have flown pure gliders for 40 years and over more than 50,000 mi documented. Why I and some others on r.
a.s. are being demeaned, belittled, attacked with a slew of invective is beyond me. I think I have proven that I can fly motorless gliders just fine.

Herb

Herbie, get a grip, so what if the new gliders are 80% motor propulsion, that only means that a lot of you guys are missing out on a great flight platform. Motorgliders have degraded this sport, taken it down to the sewer, and it really stinks. Don'

t take this the wrong way Herb, but your old days of the LS4 were better suited for you than this new age motorglider stuff. The invitation still stands, come on down to the sunshine state this fall or spring and join us at Treasure Coast for the 2023
Motorglider Soaring Safari, free tows, cold beer and great hamburgers. You might jus come away with a big smile on your face and eager to return for another Safari. Old Bob, The Purist

What, so your imaginary dog can pee on my glider? I don't think so. Bobby, you know as much about motorgliders as you know about safaris, which is nothing at all. Your continued invective about a non-existent problem reflects a major, deep-seated

emotional problem for which you need professional help.

Tom

Hey DH, the invitation for you does not exist. Old Bob, The Purist

Wouldn't come anyway. Now, when are you going to see that therapist?

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