General Aviation Accident...
(6/May/2022)
- New Zealand 🇳🇿 :
A Piper PA-25-235 Pawnee B, owned by the Wanganui Manawatu Gliding Club, registration ZK-CIG, impacted trees during a glider-tow takeoff attempt at Feilding Aerodrome (NZFI), Bunnythorpe, New Zealand.
The airplane sustained substantial damage and the sole pilot onboard was seriously injured.
Preliminary information indicates the glider "got too high" on departure. The tow plate was in such a position that the pilot of the Pawnee could not recover. The glider was released and was able to land safely, but the Pawnee impacted trees.
(perhaps a turboencabulator malfunction?)
Walt
That is terrible. I hate reading about these things. I wish the tow pilots could release via a trigger or similar right on the joy stick. I see my first duty on tow as to not hurt the tow pilot.On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 10:23:23 AM UTC-4, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
General Aviation Accident...
(6/May/2022)
- New Zealand 🇳🇿 :
A Piper PA-25-235 Pawnee B, owned by the Wanganui Manawatu Gliding Club, registration ZK-CIG, impacted trees during a glider-tow takeoff attempt at Feilding Aerodrome (NZFI), Bunnythorpe, New Zealand.
The airplane sustained substantial damage and the sole pilot onboard was seriously injured.
Preliminary information indicates the glider "got too high" on departure. The tow plate was in such a position that the pilot of the Pawnee could not recover. The glider was released and was able to land safely, but the Pawnee impacted trees.
(perhaps a turboencabulator malfunction?)
Walt
That is terrible. I hate reading about these things. I wish the tow pilots could release via a trigger or similar right on the joy stick. I see my first duty on tow as to not hurt the tow pilot.On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 10:23:23 AM UTC-4, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
The Tow pilot passed away in May.
R
Makes one believe in miracles...I think the Schweizer hook is overly maligned - this is worth watching: https://youtu.be/b-XMaLKl4c4
One of which is NOT the Schweizer release mechanism.
On Sunday, July 17, 2022 at 11:46:44 AM UTC-4, Mark Mocho wrote:
Makes one believe in miracles...I think the Schweizer hook is overly maligned - this is worth watching: https://youtu.be/b-XMaLKl4c4
One of which is NOT the Schweizer release mechanism.
On Sunday, July 17, 2022 at 2:50:45 PM UTC-4, sgs...@gmail.com wrote:hard to reach when you're nose down and hanging in the straps. The physics of the situation may make it nearly impossible to pull hard enough, regardless of the proving tests in the YouTube video posted early.
On Sunday, July 17, 2022 at 11:46:44 AM UTC-4, Mark Mocho wrote:The AC-43 minimum length of the " tow-hitch release handle" in the towplane is a significant factor in how much leverage you have when trying to release a kiting glider. As has been mentioned before in other threads, the short handle on the floor is
Makes one believe in miracles...I think the Schweizer hook is overly maligned - this is worth watching: https://youtu.be/b-XMaLKl4c4
One of which is NOT the Schweizer release mechanism.
The minumum 5:1 ratio specified in AC-43 is fine for dropping banner or releasing a glider under normal loads, but a higher ratio would make a significant difference. The Pawnees have a great dump handle that shouldn't get tossed when they are strippedof their spray equipment. They make great, long and easy to operate, release handles with a major mechanical advantage over the short handles you see out there. BobY repurposes the dump handle when he rebuilds his Pawnees and everyone likes it more than
PA
We had a kiting accident in Belgium two weeks ago. The pilot of the (rented) Pawnee with Schweizer hook was unable to release before the glider did (manually or via the automatic release of the winch hook) and had insufficient height to round outcorrectly out of the dive. He was horizontal but in a stall when he crashed in the corn field just passed the end of the runway. As this field was a bit lower, he was able to walk away from the burning wreck, with a broken nose and finger. Makes one
On Sunday, July 17, 2022 at 11:46:44 AM UTC-4, Mark Mocho wrote:
Makes one believe in miracles...I think the Schweizer hook is overly maligned - this is worth watching: https://youtu.be/b-XMaLKl4c4
One of which is NOT the Schweizer release mechanism.
On Sunday, July 17, 2022 at 3:54:21 PM UTC-4, bluej...@gmail.com wrote:hard to reach when you're nose down and hanging in the straps. The physics of the situation may make it nearly impossible to pull hard enough, regardless of the proving tests in the YouTube video posted early.
On Sunday, July 17, 2022 at 2:50:45 PM UTC-4, sgs...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, July 17, 2022 at 11:46:44 AM UTC-4, Mark Mocho wrote:The AC-43 minimum length of the " tow-hitch release handle" in the towplane is a significant factor in how much leverage you have when trying to release a kiting glider. As has been mentioned before in other threads, the short handle on the floor is
Makes one believe in miracles...I think the Schweizer hook is overly maligned - this is worth watching: https://youtu.be/b-XMaLKl4c4
One of which is NOT the Schweizer release mechanism.
stripped of their spray equipment. They make great, long and easy to operate, release handles with a major mechanical advantage over the short handles you see out there. BobY repurposes the dump handle when he rebuilds his Pawnees and everyone likes itThe minumum 5:1 ratio specified in AC-43 is fine for dropping banner or releasing a glider under normal loads, but a higher ratio would make a significant difference. The Pawnees have a great dump handle that shouldn't get tossed when they are
PAWe have mounted the Schweizer hook inverted and use a release handle that is about 4 inches longer and bent up instead of down. The handle is easily reached with no bending or searching as it is just below seat level. FWIW
UH
The Pawnee involved in our accident had a very long release handle, according to another of our tow pilots.Schweizer hook is far from ideal when the towing cable is under high tension. But the French Aerazur hook (no longer in production) wasn't much better, and there have been accidents with Tost hooks too. In the case of the Tost hooks, it has been
In another club, there was a similar kiting incident with a Husky ten years ago, but the pilot was able to release because the aircraft had a Tost retractable towing cable with a guillotine. So the cable was cut, not released. As far as I know, the
On Sunday, July 17, 2022 at 3:54:21 PM UTC-4, bluej...@gmail.com wrote:hard to reach when you're nose down and hanging in the straps. The physics of the situation may make it nearly impossible to pull hard enough, regardless of the proving tests in the YouTube video posted early.
On Sunday, July 17, 2022 at 2:50:45 PM UTC-4, sgs...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, July 17, 2022 at 11:46:44 AM UTC-4, Mark Mocho wrote:The AC-43 minimum length of the " tow-hitch release handle" in the towplane is a significant factor in how much leverage you have when trying to release a kiting glider. As has been mentioned before in other threads, the short handle on the floor is
Makes one believe in miracles...I think the Schweizer hook is overly maligned - this is worth watching: https://youtu.be/b-XMaLKl4c4
One of which is NOT the Schweizer release mechanism.
stripped of their spray equipment. They make great, long and easy to operate, release handles with a major mechanical advantage over the short handles you see out there. BobY repurposes the dump handle when he rebuilds his Pawnees and everyone likes itThe minumum 5:1 ratio specified in AC-43 is fine for dropping banner or releasing a glider under normal loads, but a higher ratio would make a significant difference. The Pawnees have a great dump handle that shouldn't get tossed when they are
I have a different opinion on the whole tow release scenario. I have use all of the mentioned tow release mechanisms available, Tost, Schweizer, Pacific Aero, and a couple of home made contraptions. Do not think that the Tost is without problems, thePAWe have mounted the Schweizer hook inverted and use a release handle that is about 4 inches longer and bent up instead of down. The handle is easily reached with no bending or searching as it is just below seat level. FWIW
UH
On Sunday, July 17, 2022 at 9:03:28 PM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:is hard to reach when you're nose down and hanging in the straps. The physics of the situation may make it nearly impossible to pull hard enough, regardless of the proving tests in the YouTube video posted early.
On Sunday, July 17, 2022 at 3:54:21 PM UTC-4, bluej...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, July 17, 2022 at 2:50:45 PM UTC-4, sgs...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, July 17, 2022 at 11:46:44 AM UTC-4, Mark Mocho wrote:The AC-43 minimum length of the " tow-hitch release handle" in the towplane is a significant factor in how much leverage you have when trying to release a kiting glider. As has been mentioned before in other threads, the short handle on the floor
Makes one believe in miracles...I think the Schweizer hook is overly maligned - this is worth watching:
One of which is NOT the Schweizer release mechanism.
https://youtu.be/b-XMaLKl4c4
stripped of their spray equipment. They make great, long and easy to operate, release handles with a major mechanical advantage over the short handles you see out there. BobY repurposes the dump handle when he rebuilds his Pawnees and everyone likes itThe minumum 5:1 ratio specified in AC-43 is fine for dropping banner or releasing a glider under normal loads, but a higher ratio would make a significant difference. The Pawnees have a great dump handle that shouldn't get tossed when they are
Schweizer is ok, but with the proper release handle and the Pacific Aero is a very good release that works well.I have a different opinion on the whole tow release scenario. I have use all of the mentioned tow release mechanisms available, Tost, Schweizer, Pacific Aero, and a couple of home made contraptions. Do not think that the Tost is without problems, thePAWe have mounted the Schweizer hook inverted and use a release handle that is about 4 inches longer and bent up instead of down. The handle is easily reached with no bending or searching as it is just below seat level. FWIW
UH
The main problem is that the release handle must be easily within the reach of the struggling tow pilot. I have flown tow planes that it was impossible to reach the release during an emergency. With the Pawnee in mind, keep the hopper release handleand modify it to work as the release handle and you may be surprised at how effective it will be. OBTP
If all tow pilots would have refused to tow with anything less than acceptable tow release, we would have less tow kiting accidents. The reality is that many tow pilots either not fully aware or not too worried about this issue.is hard to reach when you're nose down and hanging in the straps. The physics of the situation may make it nearly impossible to pull hard enough, regardless of the proving tests in the YouTube video posted early.
Ramy
On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 2:21:49 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, July 17, 2022 at 9:03:28 PM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:
On Sunday, July 17, 2022 at 3:54:21 PM UTC-4, bluej...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, July 17, 2022 at 2:50:45 PM UTC-4, sgs...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, July 17, 2022 at 11:46:44 AM UTC-4, Mark Mocho wrote:The AC-43 minimum length of the " tow-hitch release handle" in the towplane is a significant factor in how much leverage you have when trying to release a kiting glider. As has been mentioned before in other threads, the short handle on the floor
Makes one believe in miracles...I think the Schweizer hook is overly maligned - this is worth watching:
One of which is NOT the Schweizer release mechanism.
https://youtu.be/b-XMaLKl4c4
stripped of their spray equipment. They make great, long and easy to operate, release handles with a major mechanical advantage over the short handles you see out there. BobY repurposes the dump handle when he rebuilds his Pawnees and everyone likes itThe minumum 5:1 ratio specified in AC-43 is fine for dropping banner or releasing a glider under normal loads, but a higher ratio would make a significant difference. The Pawnees have a great dump handle that shouldn't get tossed when they are
Schweizer is ok, but with the proper release handle and the Pacific Aero is a very good release that works well.I have a different opinion on the whole tow release scenario. I have use all of the mentioned tow release mechanisms available, Tost, Schweizer, Pacific Aero, and a couple of home made contraptions. Do not think that the Tost is without problems, thePAWe have mounted the Schweizer hook inverted and use a release handle that is about 4 inches longer and bent up instead of down. The handle is easily reached with no bending or searching as it is just below seat level. FWIW
UH
and modify it to work as the release handle and you may be surprised at how effective it will be. OBTPThe main problem is that the release handle must be easily within the reach of the struggling tow pilot. I have flown tow planes that it was impossible to reach the release during an emergency. With the Pawnee in mind, keep the hopper release handle
On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 9:03:57 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:floor is hard to reach when you're nose down and hanging in the straps. The physics of the situation may make it nearly impossible to pull hard enough, regardless of the proving tests in the YouTube video posted early.
If all tow pilots would have refused to tow with anything less than acceptable tow release, we would have less tow kiting accidents. The reality is that many tow pilots either not fully aware or not too worried about this issue.
Ramy
On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 2:21:49 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, July 17, 2022 at 9:03:28 PM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:
On Sunday, July 17, 2022 at 3:54:21 PM UTC-4, bluej...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, July 17, 2022 at 2:50:45 PM UTC-4, sgs...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, July 17, 2022 at 11:46:44 AM UTC-4, Mark Mocho wrote:The AC-43 minimum length of the " tow-hitch release handle" in the towplane is a significant factor in how much leverage you have when trying to release a kiting glider. As has been mentioned before in other threads, the short handle on the
Makes one believe in miracles...I think the Schweizer hook is overly maligned - this is worth watching:
One of which is NOT the Schweizer release mechanism.
https://youtu.be/b-XMaLKl4c4
stripped of their spray equipment. They make great, long and easy to operate, release handles with a major mechanical advantage over the short handles you see out there. BobY repurposes the dump handle when he rebuilds his Pawnees and everyone likes itThe minumum 5:1 ratio specified in AC-43 is fine for dropping banner or releasing a glider under normal loads, but a higher ratio would make a significant difference. The Pawnees have a great dump handle that shouldn't get tossed when they are
the Schweizer is ok, but with the proper release handle and the Pacific Aero is a very good release that works well.I have a different opinion on the whole tow release scenario. I have use all of the mentioned tow release mechanisms available, Tost, Schweizer, Pacific Aero, and a couple of home made contraptions. Do not think that the Tost is without problems,PAWe have mounted the Schweizer hook inverted and use a release handle that is about 4 inches longer and bent up instead of down. The handle is easily reached with no bending or searching as it is just below seat level. FWIW
UH
handle and modify it to work as the release handle and you may be surprised at how effective it will be. OBTPThe main problem is that the release handle must be easily within the reach of the struggling tow pilot. I have flown tow planes that it was impossible to reach the release during an emergency. With the Pawnee in mind, keep the hopper release
Ramy, you are 100% correct, more tow pilots must be more cognizant of the surprise tow and how to save yourself in that all too often emergency. Not only am I getting more grumpy in my golden years, but also more cognizant of the emergency situationthat one could and possibly will be faced with. Getting to that ever important release or dump handle can and will save your life. OBTP
If all tow pilots would have refused to tow with anything less than acceptable tow release, we would have less tow kiting accidents. The reality is that many tow pilots either not fully aware or not too worried about this issue.is hard to reach when you're nose down and hanging in the straps. The physics of the situation may make it nearly impossible to pull hard enough, regardless of the proving tests in the YouTube video posted early.
Ramy
On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 2:21:49 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, July 17, 2022 at 9:03:28 PM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:
On Sunday, July 17, 2022 at 3:54:21 PM UTC-4, bluej...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, July 17, 2022 at 2:50:45 PM UTC-4, sgs...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, July 17, 2022 at 11:46:44 AM UTC-4, Mark Mocho wrote:The AC-43 minimum length of the " tow-hitch release handle" in the towplane is a significant factor in how much leverage you have when trying to release a kiting glider. As has been mentioned before in other threads, the short handle on the floor
Makes one believe in miracles...I think the Schweizer hook is overly maligned - this is worth watching:
One of which is NOT the Schweizer release mechanism.
https://youtu.be/b-XMaLKl4c4
stripped of their spray equipment. They make great, long and easy to operate, release handles with a major mechanical advantage over the short handles you see out there. BobY repurposes the dump handle when he rebuilds his Pawnees and everyone likes itThe minumum 5:1 ratio specified in AC-43 is fine for dropping banner or releasing a glider under normal loads, but a higher ratio would make a significant difference. The Pawnees have a great dump handle that shouldn't get tossed when they are
Schweizer is ok, but with the proper release handle and the Pacific Aero is a very good release that works well.I have a different opinion on the whole tow release scenario. I have use all of the mentioned tow release mechanisms available, Tost, Schweizer, Pacific Aero, and a couple of home made contraptions. Do not think that the Tost is without problems, thePAWe have mounted the Schweizer hook inverted and use a release handle that is about 4 inches longer and bent up instead of down. The handle is easily reached with no bending or searching as it is just below seat level. FWIW
UH
and modify it to work as the release handle and you may be surprised at how effective it will be. OBTPThe main problem is that the release handle must be easily within the reach of the struggling tow pilot. I have flown tow planes that it was impossible to reach the release during an emergency. With the Pawnee in mind, keep the hopper release handle
At least one operation I know has guillotines to cut the rope if the release doesn't work. If you had that it doesn't matter what happens you can cut the rope.
- Chris Schrader
On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 12:41:39 PM UTC-4, cschra...@gmail.com wrote:the guillotine doesn't work properly too.
At least one operation I know has guillotines to cut the rope if the release doesn't work. If you had that it doesn't matter what happens you can cut the rope.I'm not familiar with guillotine set ups but I would imagine it is one or the other. A release OR a guillotine. When things are going bad down low you don't want to be wasting time releasing if you can cut the line. I'm sure there are occasions when
- Chris Schrader
Walt
The Byron tow plane had guillotine instead of tow release. This is common for retractable tow ropes. The rope was cut, but it was too late.the guillotine doesn't work properly too.
Ramy
On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 7:33:30 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 12:41:39 PM UTC-4, cschra...@gmail.com wrote:
At least one operation I know has guillotines to cut the rope if the release doesn't work. If you had that it doesn't matter what happens you can cut the rope.I'm not familiar with guillotine set ups but I would imagine it is one or the other. A release OR a guillotine. When things are going bad down low you don't want to be wasting time releasing if you can cut the line. I'm sure there are occasions when
- Chris Schrader
Walt
On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 1:14:29 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:when the guillotine doesn't work properly too.
The Byron tow plane had guillotine instead of tow release. This is common for retractable tow ropes. The rope was cut, but it was too late.
Ramy
On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 7:33:30 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 12:41:39 PM UTC-4, cschra...@gmail.com wrote:
At least one operation I know has guillotines to cut the rope if the release doesn't work. If you had that it doesn't matter what happens you can cut the rope.I'm not familiar with guillotine set ups but I would imagine it is one or the other. A release OR a guillotine. When things are going bad down low you don't want to be wasting time releasing if you can cut the line. I'm sure there are occasions
- Chris Schrader
found myself nose down and wings turned 90 degrees to the left.As I have said, there is a point in the tow that no matter what kind of release one has, no matter if their hand is on the lever, the tow pilot will be in an unrecoverable position. Had the handle been in my hand I could not have pulled it before IWalt
The answer is an all encompassing one my friends. Training is where one starts, not just telling but TEACHING the student to keep their eyes on the tow plane, there is a difference. Not just telling but TEACHING the student to release immediately ifthey lose sight of the tow plane. This being said there are certain types who will never get it, you went to high school with them, college too. The type of release and the handle just give the tow pilot an escape if the event happens high enough.
Then again as I have pointed out, if you can't trust a CFIG to do things right, how can you trust a student or a certified pilot?Any statistics on the kind of gliders that are involved in kiting accidents/incidents?
Walt
On Friday, July 22, 2022 at 8:52:39 AM UTC-5, waltco...@aol.com wrote:when the guillotine doesn't work properly too.
On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 1:14:29 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
The Byron tow plane had guillotine instead of tow release. This is common for retractable tow ropes. The rope was cut, but it was too late.
Ramy
On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 7:33:30 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 12:41:39 PM UTC-4, cschra...@gmail.com wrote:
At least one operation I know has guillotines to cut the rope if the release doesn't work. If you had that it doesn't matter what happens you can cut the rope.I'm not familiar with guillotine set ups but I would imagine it is one or the other. A release OR a guillotine. When things are going bad down low you don't want to be wasting time releasing if you can cut the line. I'm sure there are occasions
- Chris Schrader
found myself nose down and wings turned 90 degrees to the left.As I have said, there is a point in the tow that no matter what kind of release one has, no matter if their hand is on the lever, the tow pilot will be in an unrecoverable position. Had the handle been in my hand I could not have pulled it before IWalt
they lose sight of the tow plane. This being said there are certain types who will never get it, you went to high school with them, college too. The type of release and the handle just give the tow pilot an escape if the event happens high enough.The answer is an all encompassing one my friends. Training is where one starts, not just telling but TEACHING the student to keep their eyes on the tow plane, there is a difference. Not just telling but TEACHING the student to release immediately if
Then again as I have pointed out, if you can't trust a CFIG to do things right, how can you trust a student or a certified pilot?
WaltAny statistics on the kind of gliders that are involved in kiting accidents/incidents?
Our club's Pawnees have Tost reels with guillotines - which I like a LOT more than the Elmira Death Hook!
And yes, we do ops check the guillotines whenever we replace the rope. They are surprisingly easy to use - probably easier with the rope in tension. Release handle is right in front of the throttle at same level.
Kirk
66
On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 2:37:07 PM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
On Friday, July 22, 2022 at 8:52:39 AM UTC-5, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 1:14:29 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:Any statistics on the kind of gliders that are involved in kiting
The Byron tow plane had guillotine instead of tow release. This isAs I have said, there is a point in the tow that no matter what kind
common for retractable tow ropes. The rope was cut, but it was too
late.
Ramy On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 7:33:30 AM UTC-7,
waltco...@aol.com wrote:
On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 12:41:39 PM UTC-4,
cschra...@gmail.com wrote:
At least one operation I know has guillotines to cut the ropeI'm not familiar with guillotine set ups but I would imagine it
if the release doesn't work. If you had that it doesn't matter
what happens you can cut the rope.
- Chris Schrader
is one or the other. A release OR a guillotine. When things are
going bad down low you don't want to be wasting time releasing if
you can cut the line. I'm sure there are occasions when the
guillotine doesn't work properly too.
Walt
of release one has, no matter if their hand is on the lever, the tow
pilot will be in an unrecoverable position. Had the handle been in my
hand I could not have pulled it before I found myself nose down and
wings turned 90 degrees to the left.
The answer is an all encompassing one my friends. Training is where
one starts, not just telling but TEACHING the student to keep their
eyes on the tow plane, there is a difference. Not just telling but
TEACHING the student to release immediately if they lose sight of the
tow plane. This being said there are certain types who will never get
it, you went to high school with them, college too. The type of
release and the handle just give the tow pilot an escape if the event
happens high enough.
Then again as I have pointed out, if you can't trust a CFIG to do
things right, how can you trust a student or a certified pilot?
Walt
accidents/incidents?
Our club's Pawnees have Tost reels with guillotines - which I like a
LOT more than the Elmira Death Hook!
And yes, we do ops check the guillotines whenever we replace the rope.
They are surprisingly easy to use - probably easier with the rope in
tension. Release handle is right in front of the throttle at same
level.
Kirk 66
Unfortunately, the Tost reel system is not a solution to the kiting
problem as a fatal accident last year involved this system. The problem
is that if the kiting occurs at low altitude (<500 ft) the tow pilot has
very little time to react to the kiting and cut the rope. I have
advocated an electronic system to sense the upset and trigger the
guillotine, but do not have access to the test beds (tow planes)
necessary to develop such a system.
BTW, such a system would (redundantly) monitor the elevator position,
pitch angular rate, altitude and airspeed to determine if an upset was occurring.
On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 18:22:40 -0700 (PDT), 2G wrote:
On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 2:37:07 PM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
On Friday, July 22, 2022 at 8:52:39 AM UTC-5, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 1:14:29 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:Any statistics on the kind of gliders that are involved in kiting
The Byron tow plane had guillotine instead of tow release. This isAs I have said, there is a point in the tow that no matter what kind
common for retractable tow ropes. The rope was cut, but it was too
late.
Ramy On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 7:33:30 AM UTC-7,
waltco...@aol.com wrote:
On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 12:41:39 PM UTC-4,
cschra...@gmail.com wrote:
At least one operation I know has guillotines to cut the ropeI'm not familiar with guillotine set ups but I would imagine it
if the release doesn't work. If you had that it doesn't matter
what happens you can cut the rope.
- Chris Schrader
is one or the other. A release OR a guillotine. When things are
going bad down low you don't want to be wasting time releasing if >> > > > you can cut the line. I'm sure there are occasions when the
guillotine doesn't work properly too.
Walt
of release one has, no matter if their hand is on the lever, the tow
pilot will be in an unrecoverable position. Had the handle been in my >> > hand I could not have pulled it before I found myself nose down and
wings turned 90 degrees to the left.
The answer is an all encompassing one my friends. Training is where
one starts, not just telling but TEACHING the student to keep their
eyes on the tow plane, there is a difference. Not just telling but
TEACHING the student to release immediately if they lose sight of the >> > tow plane. This being said there are certain types who will never get >> > it, you went to high school with them, college too. The type of
release and the handle just give the tow pilot an escape if the event >> > happens high enough.
Then again as I have pointed out, if you can't trust a CFIG to do
things right, how can you trust a student or a certified pilot?
Walt
accidents/incidents?
Our club's Pawnees have Tost reels with guillotines - which I like a
LOT more than the Elmira Death Hook!
And yes, we do ops check the guillotines whenever we replace the rope.
They are surprisingly easy to use - probably easier with the rope in
tension. Release handle is right in front of the throttle at same
level.
Kirk 66
Unfortunately, the Tost reel system is not a solution to the kiting problem as a fatal accident last year involved this system. The problem
is that if the kiting occurs at low altitude (<500 ft) the tow pilot has very little time to react to the kiting and cut the rope. I have
advocated an electronic system to sense the upset and trigger the guillotine, but do not have access to the test beds (tow planes)
necessary to develop such a system.
BTW, such a system would (redundantly) monitor the elevator position, pitch angular rate, altitude and airspeed to determine if an upset was occurring.
Avoiding False Positive kiting indications in turbulent conditions could
be quite an 'interesting' problem to solve. It might also pay to track height AGL and disable the anti-kiting sensor above, say, 2000 ft AGL.
--I regard to several comments about kiting and loss of control. I make a lot of tows, probably 1500 in the last 12 months and over the past years have made probably 5K plus, so maybe I might just have the experience necessary to make my observations.
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 7:41:58 AM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 18:22:40 -0700 (PDT), 2G wrote:
On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 2:37:07 PM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
On Friday, July 22, 2022 at 8:52:39 AM UTC-5, waltco...@aol.com wrote: >> > On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 1:14:29 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
Any statistics on the kind of gliders that are involved in kitingThe Byron tow plane had guillotine instead of tow release. This is >> > > common for retractable tow ropes. The rope was cut, but it was too >> > > late.As I have said, there is a point in the tow that no matter what kind >> > of release one has, no matter if their hand is on the lever, the tow >> > pilot will be in an unrecoverable position. Had the handle been in my >> > hand I could not have pulled it before I found myself nose down and >> > wings turned 90 degrees to the left.
Ramy On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 7:33:30 AM UTC-7,
waltco...@aol.com wrote:
On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 12:41:39 PM UTC-4,
cschra...@gmail.com wrote:
At least one operation I know has guillotines to cut the rope >> > > > > if the release doesn't work. If you had that it doesn't matter >> > > > > what happens you can cut the rope.I'm not familiar with guillotine set ups but I would imagine it >> > > > is one or the other. A release OR a guillotine. When things are >> > > > going bad down low you don't want to be wasting time releasing if >> > > > you can cut the line. I'm sure there are occasions when the
- Chris Schrader
guillotine doesn't work properly too.
Walt
The answer is an all encompassing one my friends. Training is where >> > one starts, not just telling but TEACHING the student to keep their >> > eyes on the tow plane, there is a difference. Not just telling but
TEACHING the student to release immediately if they lose sight of the >> > tow plane. This being said there are certain types who will never get >> > it, you went to high school with them, college too. The type of
release and the handle just give the tow pilot an escape if the event >> > happens high enough.
Then again as I have pointed out, if you can't trust a CFIG to do
things right, how can you trust a student or a certified pilot?
Walt
accidents/incidents?
Our club's Pawnees have Tost reels with guillotines - which I like a
LOT more than the Elmira Death Hook!
And yes, we do ops check the guillotines whenever we replace the rope. >> They are surprisingly easy to use - probably easier with the rope in
tension. Release handle is right in front of the throttle at same
level.
Kirk 66
Unfortunately, the Tost reel system is not a solution to the kiting problem as a fatal accident last year involved this system. The problem is that if the kiting occurs at low altitude (<500 ft) the tow pilot has very little time to react to the kiting and cut the rope. I have advocated an electronic system to sense the upset and trigger the guillotine, but do not have access to the test beds (tow planes) necessary to develop such a system.
BTW, such a system would (redundantly) monitor the elevator position, pitch angular rate, altitude and airspeed to determine if an upset was occurring.
Avoiding False Positive kiting indications in turbulent conditions could be quite an 'interesting' problem to solve. It might also pay to track height AGL and disable the anti-kiting sensor above, say, 2000 ft AGL.
Kiting is a product of poor teaching and poor understanding of the consequences. The recent post shown on this forum should be shown to every new and even seasoned glider pilots. The pilot should be cognizant of any out of position tow parameter and--
Martin | martin atI regard to several comments about kiting and loss of control. I make a lot of tows, probably 1500 in the last 12 months and over the past years have made probably 5K plus, so maybe I might just have the experience necessary to make my observations.
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 2:37:07 PM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:when the guillotine doesn't work properly too.
On Friday, July 22, 2022 at 8:52:39 AM UTC-5, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 1:14:29 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
The Byron tow plane had guillotine instead of tow release. This is common for retractable tow ropes. The rope was cut, but it was too late.
Ramy
On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 7:33:30 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 12:41:39 PM UTC-4, cschra...@gmail.com wrote:
At least one operation I know has guillotines to cut the rope if the release doesn't work. If you had that it doesn't matter what happens you can cut the rope.I'm not familiar with guillotine set ups but I would imagine it is one or the other. A release OR a guillotine. When things are going bad down low you don't want to be wasting time releasing if you can cut the line. I'm sure there are occasions
- Chris Schrader
found myself nose down and wings turned 90 degrees to the left.As I have said, there is a point in the tow that no matter what kind of release one has, no matter if their hand is on the lever, the tow pilot will be in an unrecoverable position. Had the handle been in my hand I could not have pulled it before IWalt
if they lose sight of the tow plane. This being said there are certain types who will never get it, you went to high school with them, college too. The type of release and the handle just give the tow pilot an escape if the event happens high enough.The answer is an all encompassing one my friends. Training is where one starts, not just telling but TEACHING the student to keep their eyes on the tow plane, there is a difference. Not just telling but TEACHING the student to release immediately
and cut the rope. I have advocated an electronic system to sense the upset and trigger the guillotine, but do not have access to the test beds (tow planes) necessary to develop such a system.Then again as I have pointed out, if you can't trust a CFIG to do things right, how can you trust a student or a certified pilot?
WaltAny statistics on the kind of gliders that are involved in kiting accidents/incidents?
Our club's Pawnees have Tost reels with guillotines - which I like a LOT more than the Elmira Death Hook!
And yes, we do ops check the guillotines whenever we replace the rope. They are surprisingly easy to use - probably easier with the rope in tension. Release handle is right in front of the throttle at same level.
KirkUnfortunately, the Tost reel system is not a solution to the kiting problem as a fatal accident last year involved this system. The problem is that if the kiting occurs at low altitude (<500 ft) the tow pilot has very little time to react to the kiting
66
BTW, such a system would (redundantly) monitor the elevator position, pitch angular rate, altitude and airspeed to determine if an upset was occurring.
Tom
On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 7:41:58 AM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 18:22:40 -0700 (PDT), 2G wrote:
On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 2:37:07 PM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
On Friday, July 22, 2022 at 8:52:39 AM UTC-5, waltco...@aol.com wrote: >> > On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 1:14:29 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
Any statistics on the kind of gliders that are involved in kitingThe Byron tow plane had guillotine instead of tow release. This is >> > > common for retractable tow ropes. The rope was cut, but it was too >> > > late.As I have said, there is a point in the tow that no matter what kind >> > of release one has, no matter if their hand is on the lever, the tow >> > pilot will be in an unrecoverable position. Had the handle been in my >> > hand I could not have pulled it before I found myself nose down and >> > wings turned 90 degrees to the left.
Ramy On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 7:33:30 AM UTC-7,
waltco...@aol.com wrote:
On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 12:41:39 PM UTC-4,
cschra...@gmail.com wrote:
At least one operation I know has guillotines to cut the rope >> > > > > if the release doesn't work. If you had that it doesn't matter >> > > > > what happens you can cut the rope.I'm not familiar with guillotine set ups but I would imagine it >> > > > is one or the other. A release OR a guillotine. When things are >> > > > going bad down low you don't want to be wasting time releasing if >> > > > you can cut the line. I'm sure there are occasions when the
- Chris Schrader
guillotine doesn't work properly too.
Walt
The answer is an all encompassing one my friends. Training is where >> > one starts, not just telling but TEACHING the student to keep their >> > eyes on the tow plane, there is a difference. Not just telling but
TEACHING the student to release immediately if they lose sight of the >> > tow plane. This being said there are certain types who will never get >> > it, you went to high school with them, college too. The type of
release and the handle just give the tow pilot an escape if the event >> > happens high enough.
Then again as I have pointed out, if you can't trust a CFIG to do
things right, how can you trust a student or a certified pilot?
Walt
accidents/incidents?
Our club's Pawnees have Tost reels with guillotines - which I like a
LOT more than the Elmira Death Hook!
And yes, we do ops check the guillotines whenever we replace the rope. >> They are surprisingly easy to use - probably easier with the rope in
tension. Release handle is right in front of the throttle at same
level.
Kirk 66
Unfortunately, the Tost reel system is not a solution to the kiting problem as a fatal accident last year involved this system. The problem is that if the kiting occurs at low altitude (<500 ft) the tow pilot has very little time to react to the kiting and cut the rope. I have advocated an electronic system to sense the upset and trigger the guillotine, but do not have access to the test beds (tow planes) necessary to develop such a system.
BTW, such a system would (redundantly) monitor the elevator position, pitch angular rate, altitude and airspeed to determine if an upset was occurring.
Avoiding False Positive kiting indications in turbulent conditions could be quite an 'interesting' problem to solve. It might also pay to track height AGL and disable the anti-kiting sensor above, say, 2000 ft AGL.
Kiting is a product of poor teaching and poor understanding of the consequences. The recent post shown on this forum should be shown to every new and even seasoned glider pilots. The pilot should be cognizant of any out of position tow parameter and--
Martin | martin atI regard to several comments about kiting and loss of control. I make a lot of tows, probably 1500 in the last 12 months and over the past years have made probably 5K plus, so maybe I might just have the experience necessary to make my observations.
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 9:22:42 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:when the guillotine doesn't work properly too.
On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 2:37:07 PM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
On Friday, July 22, 2022 at 8:52:39 AM UTC-5, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 1:14:29 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
The Byron tow plane had guillotine instead of tow release. This is common for retractable tow ropes. The rope was cut, but it was too late.
Ramy
On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 7:33:30 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote: >>>>>> On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 12:41:39 PM UTC-4, cschra...@gmail.com wrote:
At least one operation I know has guillotines to cut the rope if the release doesn't work. If you had that it doesn't matter what happens you can cut the rope.I'm not familiar with guillotine set ups but I would imagine it is one or the other. A release OR a guillotine. When things are going bad down low you don't want to be wasting time releasing if you can cut the line. I'm sure there are occasions
- Chris Schrader
found myself nose down and wings turned 90 degrees to the left.As I have said, there is a point in the tow that no matter what kind of release one has, no matter if their hand is on the lever, the tow pilot will be in an unrecoverable position. Had the handle been in my hand I could not have pulled it before I
Walt
they lose sight of the tow plane. This being said there are certain types who will never get it, you went to high school with them, college too. The type of release and the handle just give the tow pilot an escape if the event happens high enough.
The answer is an all encompassing one my friends. Training is where one starts, not just telling but TEACHING the student to keep their eyes on the tow plane, there is a difference. Not just telling but TEACHING the student to release immediately if
kiting and cut the rope. I have advocated an electronic system to sense the upset and trigger the guillotine, but do not have access to the test beds (tow planes) necessary to develop such a system.Unfortunately, the Tost reel system is not a solution to the kiting problem as a fatal accident last year involved this system. The problem is that if the kiting occurs at low altitude (<500 ft) the tow pilot has very little time to react to theAny statistics on the kind of gliders that are involved in kiting accidents/incidents?
Then again as I have pointed out, if you can't trust a CFIG to do things right, how can you trust a student or a certified pilot?
Walt
Our club's Pawnees have Tost reels with guillotines - which I like a LOT more than the Elmira Death Hook!
And yes, we do ops check the guillotines whenever we replace the rope. They are surprisingly easy to use - probably easier with the rope in tension. Release handle is right in front of the throttle at same level.
Kirk
66
BTW, such a system would (redundantly) monitor the elevator position, pitch angular rate, altitude and airspeed to determine if an upset was occurring.
Tom
Anything is accomplishable with enough time and money but when you have push back about inverting the Schweizer hook or lengthening the release handle how ready do you think the commercial operator or club will be to accept your solution?
Walt
WRT training, our club has added an Emergencies section to our pre-solo written test in addition to the topics required by 61.87. Questions germane to kiting are:
3- Your canopy pops open on aerotow. You should
a- use both hands to immediately close the canopy
b- fly the plane to a safe altitude with the canopy open, then do a safe landing using one hand on
the stick and the other on the spoilers like you normally do. Leave the canopy open; don’t try to
use one hand to hold it. The glider will fly perfectly well with an open canopy
c- do nothing; this is not an emergency
5- According to the Glider Flying Handbook, “One of the most dangerous occurrences during aerotow is
allowing the glider to fly high above and losing sight of the towplane.” This is because (circle all correct):
a- The tension on the towline caused by the glider pulls the towplane tail up, lowering its nose.
b- If the glider continues to rise, pulling the towplane tail higher, the tow pilot may not be able to
raise the nose.
c- Ultimately, the tow pilot may run out of up elevator authority
d- In some towhook systems, the high pressure loading on the towhook causes towhook seizure,
and the tow pilot may not be able to release the towline from the towplane. e- This situation can be critical if it occurs at altitudes below 500 feet above ground level (AGL).
6- On aerotow you suddenly realize you’ve lost sight of the towplane. You should:
a. release immediately because the abnormally large upward pull can upset the towplane
b. pitch down, dive on the towplane and worry about the slack rope later
c. do nothing; this is not an emergency
At the conclusion of the test, we review all incorrect answers with the student before authorizing that student to conduct a solo flight.
Larry
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