On Tuesday, March 2, 2021 at 7:09:50 AM UTC-7, tango...@gmail.com wrote:

On Monday, March 1, 2021 at 11:04:02 AM UTC-5, nickkennedy...@gmail.com wrote:

In my 1989 edition of "The Joy Of Soaring"
Its got alot of wonderful illustrations.
On page 125 It graphically shows the effect of wind gradient during the turn from base to final, where so many accidents occur.
The cause of these accidents? Airspeed to low.
On page 126 it shows the effects, on a gliders glide path and airspeed, of a thermal breaking off the airport and drifting with the wind in to the final approach leg.
Cause of these accidents from glider landing short, too low airspeed.
I Don't have much experience flying east of the Mississippi, some but not much.
All I know is in the West, landing anytime after noon, IMHO, This Yellow Triangle speed is a proven recipe for disaster. It's been proven many many, many times to be be WAY to low.
Ok If you HAVE TO land in a 600' long field so be it.
But 99.8% of the time I'm landing on 5-7000'+ of asphalt.
Have a look at the guy being lowered out of his ASK 21 in Germany, In a new thread.
I bet he could have used more airspeed.
I'm not trying to cause any trouble, just address a long term problem that we have had since day 1.
And don't get high on the tug either.
Fly safe in 2021
Nick
T

Gents
The above thread was started b/c of the threat like the fatal accident that happened in Rifle yesterday.
The gliderpilot killed yesterday was super current and super good if you think this can't happen to you.
In the western US, thermic conditions in the summer it can be quite strong. Don't know much about the midwest or the East.
lets try to stay sharp out there.
Nick
T

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On 6/10/2022 12:11 PM, Nicholas Kennedy wrote:

On Tuesday, March 2, 2021 at 7:09:50 AM UTC-7, tango...@gmail.com wrote:

On Monday, March 1, 2021 at 11:04:02 AM UTC-5, nickkennedy...@gmail.com wrote:

In my 1989 edition of "The Joy Of Soaring"
Its got alot of wonderful illustrations.
On page 125 It graphically shows the effect of wind gradient during the turn from base to final, where so many accidents occur.
The cause of these accidents? Airspeed to low.
On page 126 it shows the effects, on a gliders glide path and airspeed, of a thermal breaking off the airport and drifting with the wind in to the final approach leg.
Cause of these accidents from glider landing short, too low airspeed.
I Don't have much experience flying east of the Mississippi, some but not much.
All I know is in the West, landing anytime after noon, IMHO, This Yellow Triangle speed is a proven recipe for disaster. It's been proven many many, many times to be be WAY to low.
Ok If you HAVE TO land in a 600' long field so be it.
But 99.8% of the time I'm landing on 5-7000'+ of asphalt.
Have a look at the guy being lowered out of his ASK 21 in Germany, In a new thread.
I bet he could have used more airspeed.
I'm not trying to cause any trouble, just address a long term problem that we have had since day 1.
And don't get high on the tug either.
Fly safe in 2021
Nick
T

Gents
The above thread was started b/c of the threat like the fatal accident that happened in Rifle yesterday.
The gliderpilot killed yesterday was super current and super good if you think this can't happen to you.
In the western US, thermic conditions in the summer it can be quite strong. Don't know much about the midwest or the East.
lets try to stay sharp out there.
Nick
T

A 90 degree wind direction change, coupled with a doubling of the wind and gust speeds to
33/G43, is way beyond anything I've encountered in 6000+ hours of flying. I have no idea
how I would cope with such an extreme case. How much faster than the yellow triangle would
you have to go to retain control in the Rifle case?

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

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It is not uncommon to see 90-180 degrees direction change and 30-40 knots speed change in gust fronts out west. I’ve encountered those on the ground multiple times over the years, especially near downburst and Virga. I always feel lucky that I nor
anyone else happen to be landing at that moment. If you get caught at the wrong moment near the ground, I am not sure that anything can be done.

Ramy

On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 2:11:32 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 6/10/2022 12:11 PM, Nicholas Kennedy wrote:

On Tuesday, March 2, 2021 at 7:09:50 AM UTC-7, tango...@gmail.com wrote:

On Monday, March 1, 2021 at 11:04:02 AM UTC-5, nickkennedy...@gmail.com wrote:

In my 1989 edition of "The Joy Of Soaring"
Its got alot of wonderful illustrations.
On page 125 It graphically shows the effect of wind gradient during the turn from base to final, where so many accidents occur.
The cause of these accidents? Airspeed to low.
On page 126 it shows the effects, on a gliders glide path and airspeed, of a thermal breaking off the airport and drifting with the wind in to the final approach leg.
Cause of these accidents from glider landing short, too low airspeed. >>> I Don't have much experience flying east of the Mississippi, some but not much.
All I know is in the West, landing anytime after noon, IMHO, This Yellow Triangle speed is a proven recipe for disaster. It's been proven many many, many times to be be WAY to low.
Ok If you HAVE TO land in a 600' long field so be it.
But 99.8% of the time I'm landing on 5-7000'+ of asphalt.
Have a look at the guy being lowered out of his ASK 21 in Germany, In a new thread.
I bet he could have used more airspeed.
I'm not trying to cause any trouble, just address a long term problem that we have had since day 1.
And don't get high on the tug either.
Fly safe in 2021
Nick
T

Gents
The above thread was started b/c of the threat like the fatal accident that happened in Rifle yesterday.
The gliderpilot killed yesterday was super current and super good if you think this can't happen to you.
In the western US, thermic conditions in the summer it can be quite strong. Don't know much about the midwest or the East.
lets try to stay sharp out there.
Nick
T

A 90 degree wind direction change, coupled with a doubling of the wind and gust speeds to
33/G43, is way beyond anything I've encountered in 6000+ hours of flying. I have no idea
how I would cope with such an extreme case. How much faster than the yellow triangle would
you have to go to retain control in the Rifle case?

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

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On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 14:22:22 -0700 (PDT), Ramy wrote:

A 90 degree wind direction change, coupled with a doubling of the wind
and gust speeds to 33/G43, is way beyond anything I've encountered in
6000+ hours of flying. I have no idea how I would cope with such an
extreme case. How much faster than the yellow triangle would you have
to go to retain control in the Rifle case?

I've not seen such strong gusts in the UK, but SOP here, at my flatland
club in Cambridgeshire is to fly finals at 50-55kts + half average wind
speed. Our launch point is usually 220m from the runway threshold - plenty
of space to fly a fully held-off (2-point) landing and stop before rolling
past the head of the launch queue and interfering with launches, even when
the wind speed is around 40 kts at altitude.


--

Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

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On 6/10/22 15:11, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 6/10/2022 12:11 PM, Nicholas Kennedy wrote:

On Tuesday, March 2, 2021 at 7:09:50 AM UTC-7, tango...@gmail.com
wrote:

On Monday, March 1, 2021 at 11:04:02 AM UTC-5,
nickkennedy...@gmail.com wrote:

In my 1989 edition of "The Joy Of Soaring" Its got alot of
wonderful illustrations. On page 125 It graphically shows the
effect of wind gradient during the turn from base to final,
where so many accidents occur. The cause of these accidents?
Airspeed to low. On page 126 it shows the effects, on a gliders
glide path and airspeed, of a thermal breaking off the airport
and drifting with the wind in to the final approach leg. Cause
of these accidents from glider landing short, too low
airspeed. I Don't have much experience flying east of the
Mississippi, some but not much. All I know is in the West,
landing anytime after noon, IMHO, This Yellow Triangle speed is
a proven recipe for disaster. It's been proven many many, many
times to be be WAY to low. Ok If you HAVE TO land in a 600'
long field so be it. But 99.8% of the time I'm landing on
5-7000'+ of asphalt. Have a look at the guy being lowered out
of his ASK 21 in Germany, In a new thread. I bet he could have
used more airspeed. I'm not trying to cause any trouble, just
address a long term problem that we have had since day 1. And
don't get high on the tug either. Fly safe in 2021 Nick T

Gents The above thread was started b/c of the threat like the
fatal accident that happened in Rifle yesterday. The gliderpilot
killed yesterday was super current and super good if you think this
can't happen to you. In the western US, thermic conditions in the
summer it can be quite strong. Don't know much about the midwest or
the East. lets try to stay sharp out there. Nick T

A 90 degree wind direction change, coupled with a doubling of the
wind and gust speeds to 33/G43, is way beyond anything I've
encountered in 6000+ hours of flying. I have no idea how I would cope
with such an extreme case. How much faster than the yellow triangle
would you have to go to retain control in the Rifle case?

I didn't know Shmuel Dimenstein (RIP), but managed to encounter 3
downbursts in ~2600 soaring hours, the vast majority of my PIC time
being above Colorado (cf: "Soaring" mag; Nov. 2007). The first two
encounters could easily have resulted in fatal arrivals; the 3rd would
have been a LOT more 'exciting' had it been my first encounter. I don't recommend those sorts of landing pattern conditions to anyone. The 3
encounters occurred within 50-ish miles of each other, about 5 miles
from Colorado's Front Range mountains, along a line between Boulder and
Owl Canyon Gliderport.

Further, I have zero idea of contributors to Shmuel's fatal crash,
beyond what I've seen today on RAS.

Nonetheless, it's always seemed prudent to me to maintain an active
sense of paranoia about landing patterns since: 1) you're approaching an unavoidable 'big, hard, thing' with potentially/unavoidably fatal energy
levels should things go south for any reason; 2) statistics
(historically a high percentage of fatal soaring/powered/flying
accidents occur during landing); 3) Murphy's a powerful guy.

A potentially lifesaving personal mindset, when 'pilots with 1st-hand experience' attempt to convey life-saving tips about 'something,' is
that of (say) a replacement infantry grunt in WW-II listening to
veterans who survived the Normandy landings, advise them how to react to
combat situations they've not yet faced. Pay attention...and internalize
what you hear!

In only one of the 3 downburst situations did my memory record my
targeted airspeed (initially, 65 knots in a G-103), and my highest
*ever* targeted/remembered airspeed ultimately became 75 knots in a
howling (30+ knots?), 90-degree, crosswind, approach to a narrow paved
taxiway I opted for vs. a considerably wider runway, because it had
fewer nearby hard things to hit (e.g. lights) should I not be able to
remain on the pavement (which I wasn't). That was after delaying the
landing for an hour hoping the wind might subside...which it didn't do
until after sunset. That was in a ship that stalled somewhere around 40
knots indicated. Even though I got away with it without bending
anything, in hindsight it would've been more prudent to land in some
nearby dryland field directly into wind.

Practically the only times I ever piloted ships 'with yellow triangles' occurred on FAA-mandated biennial flight reviews. (My post-1-26 personal gliders were all registered in Experimental categories, hence no
ship-specific markings on ASIs.) During these flight reviews we always discussed how 'Mr Reviewee' (me) chose his targeted pattern speed, but -
and this is 'the takeaway' I consider *MOST* important for any
interested reader of this post - I never thought in terms of
'manufacturers recommendations' for pattern airspeeds, but rather I
primarily thought in terms of 'AIR-condition recommendations.' In other
words, I targeted whatever airspeed my sense of the conditions, the ship
being flown, the field-length,and my personal then-relevant piloting
skills, when blended together, resulted in allowing me to feel I was
'flying safely.'

My pattern goals were always (and forever) to touch down safely (so I
could fly the same ship the next day), at the lowest energy
safely-possible. Some days it was 'wheel it on,' and others, 'drag it in
for a low-energy, short-field touchdown.'

I also generally actively strove to avoid making landing patterns while
the atmosphere remained enthusiastically thermic; this was easy to do,
since I didn't fly contests and could pick-n-choose landing times to a
large degree. (So call me a 'pattern coward!')

Regardless of what the NTSB may ultimately conclude is the probable
cause of Shmuel's crash, apply your own conclusions about it from Right
NOW, to all your future piloting, and seriously do your utmost to avoid
doing repeating anything you surmise may have contributed to his death.

Sadly,

Bob W.

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On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 3:22:24 PM UTC-6, Ramy wrote:

It is not uncommon to see 90-180 degrees direction change and 30-40 knots speed change in gust fronts out west. I’ve encountered those on the ground multiple times over the years, especially near downburst and Virga. I always feel lucky that I nor

anyone else happen to be landing at that moment. If you get caught at the wrong moment near the ground, I am not sure that anything can be done.

Similar happened to me at Parowan in my ASH 26E about 3 or 4 years ago, albeit already on final, not base to final. Runway 4/22 is 5000'X75'. In the afternoon, prevailing winds are generally southerly (more or less), so 22 is used. The main offramp is at
the far southern end, so landing is generally planned for inside the 1,000' stripes on the south end of the runway as aim point (4,000' from the start of 22). This enables plenty of room to touch down and coast to the offramp and tie-down apron. Due to
the gusty wind conditions, my final speed over the runway was at 70-75 kt. As I flared, I was hit by a gust at 90 degrees off my right. It put me about 100' plus back up in the air at about the 500' point. All I could think was "fly the glider and get
down" (engine was stowed, so not available). I touched back down about 200-250' from the end of the runway and turnoff. Thanks to good disc brakes, speed decreased such that I could make the turn onto the offramp and just coast on clear.

Note that there is no AWOS at Parowan, so pilots are dependent on wind socks and other indicators. Since this was the ASA camp, I called ground for wind conditions, but did not get a response, so listened to other pilots who had landed before me as to
winds, which is why I was coming in hot. People on the ground did detect the gust, but didn't call since I was on final and about to flare when it passed through - either I'd handle it or I wouldn't - there was no going around from where I was. If I hadn'
t had the speed, I'd probably have stalled by the time the gust was done with me, with marginal room for recovery before ground impact. As it was, I had control speed, and put the nose down - steep - and full air brakes.

At Moriarty, where I usually fly, even on "calm" days, I enter final at 70 kt minimum - the yellow triangle is pretty useless (47 kt) - and don't slow until after flare and in ground effect. The runways at Moriarty provide plenty of runout room, so
landing long is highly difficult regardless of pattern height. But even landing at 70-75 kt often leaves pilots short of the turnoff due to the 20 kt + "gusts" being pretty much the base wind speed, with occasional drops to the so-called wind speed. I've
done my share of short field landings/low energy (stop before the barbed wire fence idiot!), so appreciate the margin a long, asphalt runway provides - with the understanding that wind shear/gusts can still bite.

So, I'm with Nick, and don't really care what the yellow triangle says other than as a bench mark to determine my final speed. I like margin - I use yellow triangle plue 1/2 the wind speed + 1/2 to all the gust factor (peak gust - wind speed). This
approach has served me well flying mostly in the southwest and a few times in Florida, and I've never landed long (or short), regardless of field length (airport or off field). It's not luck, it's not skill - it's flying safely.

Eric

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On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 5:44:02 PM UTC-6, Eric Bick (DY) wrote:

On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 3:22:24 PM UTC-6, Ramy wrote:

It is not uncommon to see 90-180 degrees direction change and 30-40 knots speed change in gust fronts out west. I’ve encountered those on the ground multiple times over the years, especially near downburst and Virga. I always feel lucky that I nor

anyone else happen to be landing at that moment. If you get caught at the wrong moment near the ground, I am not sure that anything can be done.

Similar happened to me at Parowan in my ASH 26E about 3 or 4 years ago, albeit already on final, not base to final. Runway 4/22 is 5000'X75'. In the afternoon, prevailing winds are generally southerly (more or less), so 22 is used. The main offramp is

at the far southern end, so landing is generally planned for inside the 1,000' stripes on the south end of the runway as aim point (4,000' from the start of 22). This enables plenty of room to touch down and coast to the offramp and tie-down apron. Due
to the gusty wind conditions, my final speed over the runway was at 70-75 kt. As I flared, I was hit by a gust at 90 degrees off my right. It put me about 100' plus back up in the air at about the 500' point. All I could think was "fly the glider and get
down" (engine was stowed, so not available). I touched back down about 200-250' from the end of the runway and turnoff. Thanks to good disc brakes, speed decreased such that I could make the turn onto the offramp and just coast on clear.

Note that there is no AWOS at Parowan, so pilots are dependent on wind socks and other indicators. Since this was the ASA camp, I called ground for wind conditions, but did not get a response, so listened to other pilots who had landed before me as to

winds, which is why I was coming in hot. People on the ground did detect the gust, but didn't call since I was on final and about to flare when it passed through - either I'd handle it or I wouldn't - there was no going around from where I was. If I hadn'
t had the speed, I'd probably have stalled by the time the gust was done with me, with marginal room for recovery before ground impact. As it was, I had control speed, and put the nose down - steep - and full air brakes.

At Moriarty, where I usually fly, even on "calm" days, I enter final at 70 kt minimum - the yellow triangle is pretty useless (47 kt) - and don't slow until after flare and in ground effect. The runways at Moriarty provide plenty of runout room, so

landing long is highly difficult regardless of pattern height. But even landing at 70-75 kt often leaves pilots short of the turnoff due to the 20 kt + "gusts" being pretty much the base wind speed, with occasional drops to the so-called wind speed. I've
done my share of short field landings/low energy (stop before the barbed wire fence idiot!), so appreciate the margin a long, asphalt runway provides - with the understanding that wind shear/gusts can still bite.

So, I'm with Nick, and don't really care what the yellow triangle says other than as a bench mark to determine my final speed. I like margin - I use yellow triangle plue 1/2 the wind speed + 1/2 to all the gust factor (peak gust - wind speed). This

approach has served me well flying mostly in the southwest and a few times in Florida, and I've never landed long (or short), regardless of field length (airport or off field). It's not luck, it's not skill - it's flying safely.

Eric

https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?dsId=8514112

Check out the comment section on this flight last July in Ely Nv.
On my base leg to landing a gust front hit the AP and the leading edge of a gust front is the worst.
Flew into the roundout at 80 + knots and got lucky.
Shit Happens
Nick
T

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Shear boundaries, terrain and buildings can produce vortices with axes anywhere between vertical and horizontal. The shear can be twice the wind aloft; so, a garden variety 15 kt wind at circuit height can produce a 30 kt shear.

For a visible demonstration, visit a stretch of rapids on a handy river or creek. You will see eddies at current boundaries and rollers where there's a vertical drop (common at low head dams aka drowning machines).

Whitewater paddlers have the advantage of being able to see what they're about to go through. In aircraft, you don't know until you're in it.

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Now that you mention it, I remember I have twice encountered gust fronts while on the
ground, and I've been at Parowan twice when someone had problems with gust fronts (one
made it to the airport, the other landed out - minimal damage). I have seen a couple gust
fronts from the air. But through luck and maybe recognizing the situation, I've avoided
the gusts during landing. I've never had the gust front kind of thing with a blue sky.

Eric G

On 6/10/2022 2:22 PM, Ramy wrote:

It is not uncommon to see 90-180 degrees direction change and 30-40 knots speed change in gust fronts out west. I’ve encountered those on the ground multiple times over the years, especially near downburst and Virga. I always feel lucky that I nor

anyone else happen to be landing at that moment. If you get caught at the wrong moment near the ground, I am not sure that anything can be done.

Ramy

On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 2:11:32 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 6/10/2022 12:11 PM, Nicholas Kennedy wrote:

On Tuesday, March 2, 2021 at 7:09:50 AM UTC-7, tango...@gmail.com wrote: >>>> On Monday, March 1, 2021 at 11:04:02 AM UTC-5, nickkennedy...@gmail.com wrote:

In my 1989 edition of "The Joy Of Soaring"
Its got alot of wonderful illustrations.
On page 125 It graphically shows the effect of wind gradient during the turn from base to final, where so many accidents occur.
The cause of these accidents? Airspeed to low.
On page 126 it shows the effects, on a gliders glide path and airspeed, of a thermal breaking off the airport and drifting with the wind in to the final approach leg.
Cause of these accidents from glider landing short, too low airspeed. >>>>> I Don't have much experience flying east of the Mississippi, some but not much.
All I know is in the West, landing anytime after noon, IMHO, This Yellow Triangle speed is a proven recipe for disaster. It's been proven many many, many times to be be WAY to low.
Ok If you HAVE TO land in a 600' long field so be it.
But 99.8% of the time I'm landing on 5-7000'+ of asphalt.
Have a look at the guy being lowered out of his ASK 21 in Germany, In a new thread.
I bet he could have used more airspeed.
I'm not trying to cause any trouble, just address a long term problem that we have had since day 1.
And don't get high on the tug either.
Fly safe in 2021
Nick
T

Gents
The above thread was started b/c of the threat like the fatal accident that happened in Rifle yesterday.
The gliderpilot killed yesterday was super current and super good if you think this can't happen to you.
In the western US, thermic conditions in the summer it can be quite strong. Don't know much about the midwest or the East.
lets try to stay sharp out there.
Nick
T

A 90 degree wind direction change, coupled with a doubling of the wind and gust speeds to
33/G43, is way beyond anything I've encountered in 6000+ hours of flying. I have no idea
how I would cope with such an extreme case. How much faster than the yellow triangle would
you have to go to retain control in the Rifle case?

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

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* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)