I noted an interesting subject coming up in an otherwise non-productive post on this group, "How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vs Pure glider?"

So, in the interest of generating positive and educational discussion on this subject, I am opening this new conversation. I would like to make this a "judgement free zone", by which I mean let's just hear about how soaring XC flight planning and
conduct have changed now that you are flying a motorglider vs a pure glider, and perhaps some polite non-judgemental discussion on our fellow motorglider pilot's posts.

It is relevant to understand the commenter's pure vs motorglider experience in regard to this question, I believe, so let's start each post with a little on that about yourself. The vast majority of the current motorglider pilot population has had
extensive pure glider experience before taking up the motorglider I think, so my expectation is that there will be lots of productive comparison insights and tips gained here. At least that is my hope.

So, motorglider pilots, please offer up your experience and ideas on this subject, I'll bet we'll all learn some useful things. Remember, "judgement free" please. If a post states something that you would like to challenge for any reason (less-than-
safe, factually incorrect, etc.) please be polite and non-confrontational in your reply.

I'll go first, with the next post to this conversation. I will document my experience probably in more detail than required, just to kick things off with ideas on how you might describe your relevant experience levels. Don't feel compelled to write up
as much detail, we primarily want your insights, ideas, and tips.

Cheers,
Jim J6

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Pilot: Jim J6, AKA “Airport Bum”

Pure glider experience: A little over 1000 hours total in pure gliders, 700+ of this XC (badges, competition). Mostly in ASW-20, spread over 40+ years (some time off here and there for career reasons). About 25 or so off-airport landings, with no
damage or incidents (knock on wood). Silver/Gold/Diamond, all in pure gliders, got all the Diamonds south-of-the-Mason-Dixon-line and east-of-the-Mississippi (woohoo!). Flew that banner day in 1985 where a half dozen of us flew the first FAI 500k
triangles ever done in Georgia (so much fun!).

Motorglider experience: Acquired an ASH-26E in 2016, since then a little over 500 hours in motorglider, almost all XC (expeditions/camps, competition). Around half a dozen “self-retrieves”, e.g. engine starts during an XC flight to end the soaring
portion on course away from the home airport. No failures to start in-flight (yet).

Flying style: I think conservative, safety and fun first and foremost. Main focus is camp/expedition flying, small groups exploring remote soaring arenas primarily in the western USA, utilizing the freedom from towplanes offered by self-launch
motorized gliders. Also competition (but mostly for the socializing I must admit).

How has my soaring XC flight planning/conduct changed with motorgliding:

Basic philosophy: “Treat every successful in-flight engine start as a pleasant surprise.”

Therefore, there is hardly any difference in my in-flight behaviors as far as staying in gliding distance (with margin!) of high-confidence landable fields. The start-engine button is NOT there to get me out of a jam nor is it a guaranteed get-home-free
pass. EVERY time I get low, I follow the same “altitude funnel” approach I took in pure gliders, progressively homing in on my landable field as I attempt to scratch out of hole. My mindset is that if I don’t scratch out of the hole I am in, I am
landing, that is until I am pleasantly surprised by an engine start.

As far as pre-flight planning, again for me hardly any difference motorgliding vs pure. There is always a basic plan for me to be trackable (including if I have to jump out, e.g. InReach in a SMAK Pack on my chute), and for someone to come get me if (
actually, when) my get-home engine start fails and I land out. This is usually an understanding with my other self-launch buddies (I always fly XC with a buddy, at least someone flying out of the same airport and in the same general soaring arena, or
with knowledge of my plans and actively tracking me and available for retrieve).

There are some detail differences:

My motorglider is more challenging to dig out when low and in weak lift, wind, etc. because it is HEAVY (wing loading/climb performance) and BIG (not as maneuverable). Heavy because of the engine etc., e.g. my wing loading is about 9.2 lb per sq ft vs 7.
6 with my ASW-20. There have been a few instances where I “landed out” (get-home engine start) on weak competition days when my pure glider buddies dumped their water ballast and climbed out in the weak stuff that couldn’t keep me up. I accept
this as the price to pay for the self-retrieve and self-launch convenience. This adds an additional conservative factor to my flying.

But the biggest difference is increased conservatism in my off-field landing choices and my “hard deck” discipline. My big heavy self-launcher lands with significantly more energy than my pure glider, so my off-airport field choices are more limited.
I cannot land as short or as slow as I could in my pure glider ASW-20. So I stick with bigger fields. And regarding my “hard deck” for stopping soaring and committing to landing (or get-home engine start, treated as a pleasant surprise of course!)
, I have ended up at 1200 ft AGL on downwind, about twice as high as I was willing to go with my pure glider ASW-20. I actually worked my motorglider hard deck down to 800 ft on downwind at one point, but then I experienced just how little margin this
gave me if there is ANY delay or interruption in the engine start procedure. Bumped it back up to 1200 ft, to keep my heart rate down to reasonable levels!!!!! BTW, I am fully ready to land off-airport with my engine/prop stuck/failed fully extended, I
have done several training landings in this configuration, and I know how the aircraft behaves (quite well, really).

Another idea here: If things get hairy, and I am set up to land at an airport that I could self-launch out of, I will strongly consider just landing without even attempting an in-air start. Just land, meet the locals (almost always a pleasure), and
then self-launch to head home! I haven’t done this yet, but it is definitely in my mind if I end up in a stressful situation and want to skip a start attempt.

Another very important subtlety: Note that when flying the high country (example: the Rockies west of Denver and east of Grand Junction) the engine is little more than ballast, because when at peak and pass altitudes you are up where the under-power
climb rates are pitiful or non-existent. You probably cannot motor home unless you are in the valleys that feed to your home airport. So you better have landable fields available. So, just like a pure glider…..

The final difference for me is simply the freedom to explore that the motorglider offers. I haven’t used this very much yet (except the ability to fly sites which don’t have towplanes, I use that a lot on my annual western soaring safaris). But
Eric is my hero in this regard, he does it well. The idea is to use the motor if necessary to extend the soaring day and/or reach that very-interesting soaring area which would be otherwise inaccessible. No claim that this is “pure soaring”, but it
sure looks to me like great fun. An example: Apparently there is someone flying a Pippensomething (very cool touring motorgliders in my opinion) in Florida who motors to the good soaring, soars, and then motors back home. And I know others who do
similar with other touring motorgliders, having great fun doing so. Kudos! Nobody I know of represents these a “pure” soaring, but they are having fun it looks like. My philosophy, just get out there and have fun, with the freedom that your
particular machine offers you!

One final consideration: Once I have been pleasantly surprised by an engine start, I STILL fly it like a glider. I won’t leave the safety of being in a “funnel” to a landable field even when under power. My engine when running is a “ticking
time bomb” on its way to premature shutdown, as far as I am concerned.

I have sincerely tried to analyze motorglider operations in an attempt to enhance my safety and enjoyment. I hope these ideas can be useful to others. So there we go, open for polite and positive comments, especially if someone sees a non-conservative
or less-than-safe aspect to my approach. Lots to learn here I am sure.

Cheers,
Jim J6


On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 11:48:42 AM UTC-5, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:

I noted an interesting subject coming up in an otherwise non-productive post on this group, "How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vs Pure glider?"

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sunday, 1 May 2022 at 17:49:56 UTC+1, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:

Pilot: Jim J6, AKA “Airport Bum”

Pure glider experience: A little over 1000 hours total in pure gliders, 700+ of this XC (badges, competition). Mostly in ASW-20, spread over 40+ years (some time off here and there for career reasons). About 25 or so off-airport landings, with no

damage or incidents (knock on wood). Silver/Gold/Diamond, all in pure gliders, got all the Diamonds south-of-the-Mason-Dixon-line and east-of-the-Mississippi (woohoo!). Flew that banner day in 1985 where a half dozen of us flew the first FAI 500k
triangles ever done in Georgia (so much fun!).

Motorglider experience: Acquired an ASH-26E in 2016, since then a little over 500 hours in motorglider, almost all XC (expeditions/camps, competition). Around half a dozen “self-retrieves”, e.g. engine starts during an XC flight to end the soaring

portion on course away from the home airport. No failures to start in-flight (yet).

Flying style: I think conservative, safety and fun first and foremost. Main focus is camp/expedition flying, small groups exploring remote soaring arenas primarily in the western USA, utilizing the freedom from towplanes offered by self-launch

motorized gliders. Also competition (but mostly for the socializing I must admit).

How has my soaring XC flight planning/conduct changed with motorgliding:

Basic philosophy: “Treat every successful in-flight engine start as a pleasant surprise.”

Therefore, there is hardly any difference in my in-flight behaviors as far as staying in gliding distance (with margin!) of high-confidence landable fields. The start-engine button is NOT there to get me out of a jam nor is it a guaranteed get-home-

free pass. EVERY time I get low, I follow the same “altitude funnel” approach I took in pure gliders, progressively homing in on my landable field as I attempt to scratch out of hole. My mindset is that if I don’t scratch out of the hole I am in, I
am landing, that is until I am pleasantly surprised by an engine start.

As far as pre-flight planning, again for me hardly any difference motorgliding vs pure. There is always a basic plan for me to be trackable (including if I have to jump out, e.g. InReach in a SMAK Pack on my chute), and for someone to come get me if (

actually, when) my get-home engine start fails and I land out. This is usually an understanding with my other self-launch buddies (I always fly XC with a buddy, at least someone flying out of the same airport and in the same general soaring arena, or
with knowledge of my plans and actively tracking me and available for retrieve).

There are some detail differences:

My motorglider is more challenging to dig out when low and in weak lift, wind, etc. because it is HEAVY (wing loading/climb performance) and BIG (not as maneuverable). Heavy because of the engine etc., e.g. my wing loading is about 9.2 lb per sq ft vs

7.6 with my ASW-20. There have been a few instances where I “landed out” (get-home engine start) on weak competition days when my pure glider buddies dumped their water ballast and climbed out in the weak stuff that couldn’t keep me up. I accept
this as the price to pay for the self-retrieve and self-launch convenience. This adds an additional conservative factor to my flying.

But the biggest difference is increased conservatism in my off-field landing choices and my “hard deck” discipline. My big heavy self-launcher lands with significantly more energy than my pure glider, so my off-airport field choices are more

limited. I cannot land as short or as slow as I could in my pure glider ASW-20. So I stick with bigger fields. And regarding my “hard deck” for stopping soaring and committing to landing (or get-home engine start, treated as a pleasant surprise of
course!), I have ended up at 1200 ft AGL on downwind, about twice as high as I was willing to go with my pure glider ASW-20. I actually worked my motorglider hard deck down to 800 ft on downwind at one point, but then I experienced just how little margin
this gave me if there is ANY delay or interruption in the engine start procedure. Bumped it back up to 1200 ft, to keep my heart rate down to reasonable levels!!!!! BTW, I am fully ready to land off-airport with my engine/prop stuck/failed fully extended,
I have done several training landings in this configuration, and I know how the aircraft behaves (quite well, really).

Another idea here: If things get hairy, and I am set up to land at an airport that I could self-launch out of, I will strongly consider just landing without even attempting an in-air start. Just land, meet the locals (almost always a pleasure), and

then self-launch to head home! I haven’t done this yet, but it is definitely in my mind if I end up in a stressful situation and want to skip a start attempt.

Another very important subtlety: Note that when flying the high country (example: the Rockies west of Denver and east of Grand Junction) the engine is little more than ballast, because when at peak and pass altitudes you are up where the under-power

climb rates are pitiful or non-existent. You probably cannot motor home unless you are in the valleys that feed to your home airport. So you better have landable fields available. So, just like a pure glider…..

The final difference for me is simply the freedom to explore that the motorglider offers. I haven’t used this very much yet (except the ability to fly sites which don’t have towplanes, I use that a lot on my annual western soaring safaris). But

Eric is my hero in this regard, he does it well. The idea is to use the motor if necessary to extend the soaring day and/or reach that very-interesting soaring area which would be otherwise inaccessible. No claim that this is “pure soaring”, but it
sure looks to me like great fun. An example: Apparently there is someone flying a Pippensomething (very cool touring motorgliders in my opinion) in Florida who motors to the good soaring, soars, and then motors back home. And I know others who do similar
with other touring motorgliders, having great fun doing so. Kudos! Nobody I know of represents these a “pure” soaring, but they are having fun it looks like. My philosophy, just get out there and have fun, with the freedom that your particular
machine offers you!

One final consideration: Once I have been pleasantly surprised by an engine start, I STILL fly it like a glider. I won’t leave the safety of being in a “funnel” to a landable field even when under power. My engine when running is a “ticking

time bomb” on its way to premature shutdown, as far as I am concerned.

I have sincerely tried to analyze motorglider operations in an attempt to enhance my safety and enjoyment. I hope these ideas can be useful to others. So there we go, open for polite and positive comments, especially if someone sees a non-conservative

or less-than-safe aspect to my approach. Lots to learn here I am sure.

Cheers,
Jim J6
On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 11:48:42 AM UTC-5, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:

I noted an interesting subject coming up in an otherwise non-productive post on this group, "How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vs Pure glider?"

An engine allows you to fly an XC task on days when you want to be pretty sure that you will get home in good time of if you have no or limited retrieve possibilities. Other than that we shouldn't be planning a task in a motor glider that we wouldn't
plan in an un-motorised glider.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 12:49:56 PM UTC-4, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:

Pilot: Jim J6, AKA “Airport Bum”

Pure glider experience: A little over 1000 hours total in pure gliders, 700+ of this XC (badges, competition). Mostly in ASW-20, spread over 40+ years (some time off here and there for career reasons). About 25 or so off-airport landings, with no

damage or incidents (knock on wood). Silver/Gold/Diamond, all in pure gliders, got all the Diamonds south-of-the-Mason-Dixon-line and east-of-the-Mississippi (woohoo!). Flew that banner day in 1985 where a half dozen of us flew the first FAI 500k
triangles ever done in Georgia (so much fun!).

Motorglider experience: Acquired an ASH-26E in 2016, since then a little over 500 hours in motorglider, almost all XC (expeditions/camps, competition). Around half a dozen “self-retrieves”, e.g. engine starts during an XC flight to end the soaring

portion on course away from the home airport. No failures to start in-flight (yet).

Flying style: I think conservative, safety and fun first and foremost. Main focus is camp/expedition flying, small groups exploring remote soaring arenas primarily in the western USA, utilizing the freedom from towplanes offered by self-launch

motorized gliders. Also competition (but mostly for the socializing I must admit).

How has my soaring XC flight planning/conduct changed with motorgliding:

Basic philosophy: “Treat every successful in-flight engine start as a pleasant surprise.”

Therefore, there is hardly any difference in my in-flight behaviors as far as staying in gliding distance (with margin!) of high-confidence landable fields. The start-engine button is NOT there to get me out of a jam nor is it a guaranteed get-home-

free pass. EVERY time I get low, I follow the same “altitude funnel” approach I took in pure gliders, progressively homing in on my landable field as I attempt to scratch out of hole. My mindset is that if I don’t scratch out of the hole I am in, I
am landing, that is until I am pleasantly surprised by an engine start.

As far as pre-flight planning, again for me hardly any difference motorgliding vs pure. There is always a basic plan for me to be trackable (including if I have to jump out, e.g. InReach in a SMAK Pack on my chute), and for someone to come get me if (

actually, when) my get-home engine start fails and I land out. This is usually an understanding with my other self-launch buddies (I always fly XC with a buddy, at least someone flying out of the same airport and in the same general soaring arena, or
with knowledge of my plans and actively tracking me and available for retrieve).

There are some detail differences:

My motorglider is more challenging to dig out when low and in weak lift, wind, etc. because it is HEAVY (wing loading/climb performance) and BIG (not as maneuverable). Heavy because of the engine etc., e.g. my wing loading is about 9.2 lb per sq ft vs

7.6 with my ASW-20. There have been a few instances where I “landed out” (get-home engine start) on weak competition days when my pure glider buddies dumped their water ballast and climbed out in the weak stuff that couldn’t keep me up. I accept
this as the price to pay for the self-retrieve and self-launch convenience. This adds an additional conservative factor to my flying.

But the biggest difference is increased conservatism in my off-field landing choices and my “hard deck” discipline. My big heavy self-launcher lands with significantly more energy than my pure glider, so my off-airport field choices are more

limited. I cannot land as short or as slow as I could in my pure glider ASW-20. So I stick with bigger fields. And regarding my “hard deck” for stopping soaring and committing to landing (or get-home engine start, treated as a pleasant surprise of
course!), I have ended up at 1200 ft AGL on downwind, about twice as high as I was willing to go with my pure glider ASW-20. I actually worked my motorglider hard deck down to 800 ft on downwind at one point, but then I experienced just how little margin
this gave me if there is ANY delay or interruption in the engine start procedure. Bumped it back up to 1200 ft, to keep my heart rate down to reasonable levels!!!!! BTW, I am fully ready to land off-airport with my engine/prop stuck/failed fully extended,
I have done several training landings in this configuration, and I know how the aircraft behaves (quite well, really).

Another idea here: If things get hairy, and I am set up to land at an airport that I could self-launch out of, I will strongly consider just landing without even attempting an in-air start. Just land, meet the locals (almost always a pleasure), and

then self-launch to head home! I haven’t done this yet, but it is definitely in my mind if I end up in a stressful situation and want to skip a start attempt.

Another very important subtlety: Note that when flying the high country (example: the Rockies west of Denver and east of Grand Junction) the engine is little more than ballast, because when at peak and pass altitudes you are up where the under-power

climb rates are pitiful or non-existent. You probably cannot motor home unless you are in the valleys that feed to your home airport. So you better have landable fields available. So, just like a pure glider…..

The final difference for me is simply the freedom to explore that the motorglider offers. I haven’t used this very much yet (except the ability to fly sites which don’t have towplanes, I use that a lot on my annual western soaring safaris). But

Eric is my hero in this regard, he does it well. The idea is to use the motor if necessary to extend the soaring day and/or reach that very-interesting soaring area which would be otherwise inaccessible. No claim that this is “pure soaring”, but it
sure looks to me like great fun. An example: Apparently there is someone flying a Pippensomething (very cool touring motorgliders in my opinion) in Florida who motors to the good soaring, soars, and then motors back home. And I know others who do similar
with other touring motorgliders, having great fun doing so. Kudos! Nobody I know of represents these a “pure” soaring, but they are having fun it looks like. My philosophy, just get out there and have fun, with the freedom that your particular
machine offers you!

One final consideration: Once I have been pleasantly surprised by an engine start, I STILL fly it like a glider. I won’t leave the safety of being in a “funnel” to a landable field even when under power. My engine when running is a “ticking

time bomb” on its way to premature shutdown, as far as I am concerned.

I have sincerely tried to analyze motorglider operations in an attempt to enhance my safety and enjoyment. I hope these ideas can be useful to others. So there we go, open for polite and positive comments, especially if someone sees a non-conservative

or less-than-safe aspect to my approach. Lots to learn here I am sure.

Cheers,
Jim J6
On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 11:48:42 AM UTC-5, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:

I noted an interesting subject coming up in an otherwise non-productive post on this group, "How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vs Pure glider?"

No offense "Bum", but I find reading Faulkners , "The Bear" much more interesting even with his void of punctuation. Old Bob, The Purist

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

SGkgSmltLA0KDQpJJ3ZlIGJlZW4gZmx5aW5nIGdsaWRlcnMgc2luY2UgYXJvdW5kIDE5ODcg YW5kIGhhdmUgYWxsIG15IGRpYW1vbmRzLCBhbGwgDQp3ZXN0IG9mIHRoZSBNaXNzaXNzaXBw aSBzaW5jZSB0aGF0J3Mgd2hlcmUgSSBsaXZlLiAgSSBjYW4ndCByZWNhbGwgDQpmbHlpbmcg YSBnbGlkZXIgZWFzdCBvZiB0aGF0IHJpdmVyLg0KDQpBbnl3YXksIGFmdGVyIGdldHRpbmcg bXkgbGljZW5zZSwgSSBxdWlja2x5IGxlYXJuZWQgdGhhdCB3YWl0aW5nIGFyb3VuZCANCmZv ciBjbHViIHNoaXBzIGFuZCBiZWluZyBsaW1pdGVkIHRvIGFuIGhvdXIgb3Igc28gd2VyZSBu b3Qgd2hhdCBJIHdhbnRlZCANCnRvIGRvIHNvIEkgYm91Z2h0IGEgTW9zcXVpdG8uICBJIGZs ZXcgaXQgZm9yIGEgeWVhciBvciB0d28sIGRvbid0IGtub3cgDQpob3cgbWFueSBob3VycyB3 aXRob3V0IG9wZW5pbmcgbXkgbG9nYm9va3MgYW5kIG9uZSBkYXksIG9uIGEgc2FmYXJpIHRv IA0KTWFyZmEsIFRYLCBtZXQgYSBndXkgd2l0aCBhbiBBU1ctMTliIHRoYXQgaGUnZCBqdXN0 IHJlc3RvcmVkIHRvIGxpa2UgbmV3IA0KY29uZGl0aW9uLg0KDQpJIGxvdmVkIGl0IGFuZCBo ZSBsb3ZlZCBteSBkb2ctZWFyZWQgTW9zcXVpdG8gc28gd2Ugc3dhcHBlZCBvbmUgZGF5IGZv ciANCmEgZmxpZ2h0LiAgV2hpbGUgdGhlcm1hbGluZyB0b2dldGhlciB3ZSBkZWNpZGVkIHRv IHN3YXAgZXZlbiB1cCBhbmQsIA0KYWZ0ZXIgbGFuZGluZyB3ZSBydW1tYWdlZCB0aHJvdWdo IG91ciByZXNwZWN0aXZlIHN0dWZmIGFuZCBkZXRlcm1pbmVkIA0KdGhhdCB3ZSBoYWQgb25l IEFpcmNyYWZ0IEJpbGwgb2YgU2FsZSBiZXR3ZWVuIHRoZSB0d28gb2YgdXMuDQoNCkkgd29u IHRoZSBjb2luIHRvc3MgYW5kIGdvdCBhIGJpbGwgb2Ygc2FsZSBmb3IgdGhlIC0xOSBhbmQg SSB3cm90ZSBoaW0gYSANCmJpbGwgb2Ygc2FsZSBvbiB0aGUgYmFjayBvZiBhbiBlbnZlbG9w ZSB3aXRoIHRoZSBwcm9taXNlIHRvIGV4ZWN1dGUgYSANCnByb3BlciBiaWxsIG9mIHNhbGUg dXBvbiBteSByZXR1cm4gdG8gRGFsbGFzLiAgSSB0aGluayBJIGZsZXcgdGhlIC0xOSANCm1v cmUgdGhhbiB0aGUgTW9zcXVpdG8gKGxvZyBib29rcyBhZ2FpbikgYW5kLCB3aGVuIEkgbW92 ZWQgdG8gQ29sb3JhZG8sIA0KdGhlIC0xOSBjYW1lIGFsb25nLg0KDQpBZnRlciBhIGNvdXBs ZSBvZiB5ZWFycyBJIHBhcnRuZXJlZCB3aXRoIGEgbG9jYWwgYW5kIHdlIGJvdWdodCBhbiBM Uy02YSANCihhY3R1YWxseSB0aGUgMTk4NSBvciA4Nikgd29ybGQgY2hhbXBpb24uICBJdCBo YWQgYmVlbiBmYXRhbGx5IGNyYXNoZWQgDQpieSBpdHMgY3VycmVudCBvd25lciBhbmQgcmVw YWlyZWQgYnkgYSB3ZWxsLWtub3duIEdlcm1hbiB3aG8gY2FtZSB0byB0aGUgDQpVUyB0byBk byB0aGUgd29yay4gIER1ZSB0byBhIGNyYXNoIChub3QgbWUpIEkgZm91bmQgYW5vdGhlciBw YXJ0bmVyIHdobyANCmFsc28gaGFkIGFuIExTLTYgYW5kIHRoYXQgd2FzIGdvb2QgdGltZXMg YWdhaW4hDQoNCldvcmsgdG9vayBtZSB0byBTeXJhY3VzZSwgTlkgYnV0LCBiZWZvcmUgbW92 aW5nIHRvIE5ZLCBJIG1hZGUgdGhyZWUgDQpzYWZhcmlzIG91dCBvZiBCbGFjayBGb3Jlc3Q6 ICBUaGUgZmlyc3QgdHdvIHdlcmUgaW4gb3VyIExTLTYgYW5kIHdlcmUgDQpkb25lIGJ5IGdy b3VuZCBsYXVuY2guICBXZSB0b29rIGEgMSwwMDAnIHJvcGUgYW5kIHRoZSBnbGlkZXIgdHJh aWxlciBhbmQgDQp0b29rIHR1cm5zIGdyb3VuZCBsYXVuY2hpbmcgYW5kIGZseWluZyBzdHJh aWdodCBvdXQgYXJvdW5kIENPLCBOTSwgVVQsIA0KYW5kIGJhY2sgdG8gQ29sb3JhZG8uICBB dCB0aGUgZW5kIG9mIGVhY2ggZmx5aW5nIGRheSB3ZSB3b3VsZCBnZXQgYSByb29tIA0KZm9y IHRoZSBuaWdodCBhbmQgcmVwZWF0IHRoZSBwcm9jZXNzIGVhY2ggZGF5LiAgVGhlIGZpbmFs IHNhZmFyaSB3YXMgDQpkb25lIHVzaW5nIGEgZnJpZW5kJ3MgQVNXLTI0ZSBhbmQgdXNpbmcg aXRzIGFuZW1pYyBzdXN0YWluZXIgdG8gdGFrZSANCm9mZi4gIEFnYWluLCB3ZSB0b29rIHR1 cm5zIGFuZCB0cmF2ZWxlZCBhcm91bmQgdGhlIHNvdXRod2VzdC4NCg0KQmFjayBpbiB0aGUg d2VzdCwgTW9yaWFydHksIE5NLCBJIGJvcnJvd2VkIGEgTW9zcXVpdG8gaW4gZXhjaGFuZ2Ug Zm9yIA0KcmVwYWlyaW5nIGEgc25vdy1sb2FkIGRhbWFnZWQgdHJhaWxlci4gIEZvbGxvd2lu ZyB0aGF0IEkgYm91Z2h0IGEgDQpMQUstMTdhIGFuZCByZWFsbHkgZW5qb3llZCBOTSB0aGVy bWFscyBhbmQgd2F2ZSBhbmQgbWFkZSBhIHNldmVyYWwgDQpzYWZhcmlzLCBTYWxpZGEsIENP LCBNaW5kZW4sIE5WLCBCaXNob3AsIENBLg0KDQpUaGVuIG15IHdpZmUgdG9vayBhIHJpZGUg d2l0aCBtZSBpbiBhIGJvcnJvd2VkIDItc2VhdGVyIGFuZCBmZWxsIGluIGxvdmUgDQp3aXRo IHNvYXJpbmcuICBTbywgbmF0dXJhbGx5LCB0aGUgTEFLLTE3YSBoYWQgdG8gZ28gYW5kIHdl IGdvdCBhIFN0ZW1tZSANCmFuZCwgaW4gdGhlIDYgeWVhcnMgSSd2ZSBvd25lZCBpdCwgSSd2 ZSBmbG93biBpdCBzb21ldGhpbmcgb3ZlciA5MDAgaG91cnMuDQoNClNpbmNlIEkgZmx5IHRo ZSBTdGVtbWUgYXMgYSBwdXJlIGdsaWRlciAoZXhjZXB0IGZvciB0YWtlb2ZmKSBJIGFsd2F5 cyANCmZseSB3aXRoIGEgbGFuZGFibGUgZmllbGQgd2l0aGluIGdsaWRpbmcgZGlzdGFuY2Uu ICBXaGVyZWFzIHRoZSBTdGVtbWUgDQppcyBjYXBhYmxlIG9mIGxhbmRpbmcgb24gdW5pbXBy b3ZlZCBmaWVsZHMsIGl0IGlzIE5PVCBjYXBhYmxlIG9mIHRha2luZyANCm9mZiBpbiB0aGUg c2FtZSBmaWVsZHMgd2l0aG91dCByaXNrIG9mIGRhbWFnZS4gIFdpdGggdGhhdCBpbiBtaW5k LCANCmxhbmRhYmxlIGZpZWxkcyBhcmUsIHRvIG1lLCBwYXZlZCBhaXJwb3J0cywgbm90aGlu ZyBsZXNzLiAgVGhlIFN0ZW1tZSANCmRvZXMgbm90IGhhdmUgYSB0b3cgaG9vayBhbmQgSSBk b24ndCBoYXZlIGEgdHJhaWxlciBzbyBpdCdzIGFpcnBvcnRzIG9ubHkuDQoNCk15IGVuZ2lu ZSBoYXMgbmV2ZXIgZmFpbGVkIHRvIHN0YXJ0IGJ1dCBJIG5ldmVyIHJlbHkgb24gaXQgdG8g cHVzaCBteSANCmxpbWl0cy4gIEl0IG5ldmVyIHJ1bnMgbW9yZSB0aGFuIDEwLTE1IG1pbnV0 ZXMgZHVyaW5nIHRha2VvZmYgdW5sZXNzIEknbSANCmZlcnJ5aW5nIGl0IGZvciBtYWludGVu YW5jZSBvciB0byBmbHkgbG9jYWxseSBhdCBzb21lIG90aGVyIGxvY2F0aW9uLCANCmJ1dCBJ J20gZmluaXNoZWQgd2l0aCBzYWZhcmlzIHNpbmNlIHRoZXJlJ3MgYWx3YXlzIGEgd2VhdGhl ciBjb21wb25lbnQgDQp0byBsb25nIGNyb3NzIGNvdW50cnkgdHJpcHMgdGhhdCB0cmFpbGVy ZWQgZ2xpZGVycyBkb24ndCBleHBlcmllbmNlLCANCmxpa2UgYmVpbmcgYXQgMTcsOTAwJyBN U0wgd2l0aCBjbG91ZCB0b3BzIHJpc2luZyBhbmQgbm8gaG9sZXMgdG8gZ2V0IA0KZG93biBh bmQgQVRDIGRlY2xpbmluZyBoaWdoZXIgYWx0aXR1ZGUuDQoNCkkgaGF2ZSBhIGZyaWVuZCBh dCBNb3JpYXJ0eSB3aG8gdG9sZCBtZSB0aGF0IHRoZSBiZXN0IHZhY2F0aW9uIG9mIGhpcyAN CmxpZmUgd2FzIHdoZW4gaGUgdG9vayBoaXMgR3JvYi0xMDkgb24gYSBub3J0aC1zb3V0aCBi b3JkZXIgdG8gYm9yZGVyIA0KY2FtcGluZyB0cmlwLiAgSG93IGNvdWxkIHlvdSBiZWF0IHRo YXQ/DQoNCkRhbg0KNUoNCg0KT24gNS8xLzIyIDEwOjQ5LCBKNiBha2EgQWlycG9ydCBCdW0g d3JvdGU6DQo+IFBpbG90OiAgSmltIEo2LCBBS0Eg4oCcQWlycG9ydCBCdW3igJ0NCj4gDQo+ IFB1cmUgZ2xpZGVyIGV4cGVyaWVuY2U6ICBBIGxpdHRsZSBvdmVyIDEwMDAgaG91cnMgdG90 YWwgaW4gcHVyZSBnbGlkZXJzLCA3MDArIG9mIHRoaXMgWEMgKGJhZGdlcywgY29tcGV0aXRp b24pLiAgTW9zdGx5IGluIEFTVy0yMCwgc3ByZWFkIG92ZXIgNDArIHllYXJzIChzb21lIHRp bWUgb2ZmIGhlcmUgYW5kIHRoZXJlIGZvciBjYXJlZXIgcmVhc29ucykuICBBYm91dCAyNSBv ciBzbyBvZmYtYWlycG9ydCBsYW5kaW5ncywgd2l0aCBubyBkYW1hZ2Ugb3IgaW5jaWRlbnRz IChrbm9jayBvbiB3b29kKS4gIFNpbHZlci9Hb2xkL0RpYW1vbmQsIGFsbCBpbiBwdXJlIGds aWRlcnMsIGdvdCBhbGwgdGhlIERpYW1vbmRzIHNvdXRoLW9mLXRoZS1NYXNvbi1EaXhvbi1s aW5lIGFuZCBlYXN0LW9mLXRoZS1NaXNzaXNzaXBwaSAod29vaG9vISkuICBGbGV3IHRoYXQg YmFubmVyIGRheSBpbiAxOTg1IHdoZXJlIGEgaGFsZiBkb3plbiBvZiB1cyBmbGV3IHRoZSBm aXJzdCBGQUkgNTAwayB0cmlhbmdsZXMgZXZlciBkb25lIGluIEdlb3JnaWEgKHNvIG11Y2gg ZnVuISkuDQo+IA0KPiBNb3RvcmdsaWRlciBleHBlcmllbmNlOiAgQWNxdWlyZWQgYW4gQVNI LTI2RSBpbiAyMDE2LCBzaW5jZSB0aGVuIGEgbGl0dGxlIG92ZXIgNTAwIGhvdXJzIGluIG1v dG9yZ2xpZGVyLCBhbG1vc3QgYWxsIFhDIChleHBlZGl0aW9ucy9jYW1wcywgY29tcGV0aXRp b24pLiAgQXJvdW5kIGhhbGYgYSBkb3plbiDigJxzZWxmLXJldHJpZXZlc+KAnSwgZS5nLiBl bmdpbmUgc3RhcnRzIGR1cmluZyBhbiBYQyBmbGlnaHQgdG8gZW5kIHRoZSBzb2FyaW5nIHBv cnRpb24gb24gY291cnNlIGF3YXkgZnJvbSB0aGUgaG9tZSBhaXJwb3J0LiAgTm8gZmFpbHVy ZXMgdG8gc3RhcnQgaW4tZmxpZ2h0ICh5ZXQpLg0KPiANCj4gRmx5aW5nIHN0eWxlOiAgSSB0 aGluayBjb25zZXJ2YXRpdmUsIHNhZmV0eSBhbmQgZnVuIGZpcnN0IGFuZCBmb3JlbW9zdC4g IE1haW4gZm9jdXMgaXMgY2FtcC9leHBlZGl0aW9uIGZseWluZywgc21hbGwgZ3JvdXBzIGV4 cGxvcmluZyByZW1vdGUgc29hcmluZyBhcmVuYXMgcHJpbWFyaWx5IGluIHRoZSB3ZXN0ZXJu IFVTQSwgdXRpbGl6aW5nIHRoZSBmcmVlZG9tIGZyb20gdG93cGxhbmVzIG9mZmVyZWQgYnkg c2VsZi1sYXVuY2ggbW90b3JpemVkIGdsaWRlcnMuICBBbHNvIGNvbXBldGl0aW9uIChidXQg bW9zdGx5IGZvciB0aGUgc29jaWFsaXppbmcgSSBtdXN0IGFkbWl0KS4NCj4gDQo+IEhvdyBo YXMgbXkgc29hcmluZyBYQyBmbGlnaHQgcGxhbm5pbmcvY29uZHVjdCBjaGFuZ2VkIHdpdGgg bW90b3JnbGlkaW5nOg0KPiANCj4gQmFzaWMgcGhpbG9zb3BoeTogIOKAnFRyZWF0IGV2ZXJ5 IHN1Y2Nlc3NmdWwgaW4tZmxpZ2h0IGVuZ2luZSBzdGFydCBhcyBhIHBsZWFzYW50IHN1cnBy aXNlLuKAnQ0KPiANCj4gVGhlcmVmb3JlLCB0aGVyZSBpcyBoYXJkbHkgYW55IGRpZmZlcmVu Y2UgaW4gbXkgaW4tZmxpZ2h0IGJlaGF2aW9ycyBhcyBmYXIgYXMgc3RheWluZyBpbiBnbGlk aW5nIGRpc3RhbmNlICh3aXRoIG1hcmdpbiEpIG9mIGhpZ2gtY29uZmlkZW5jZSBsYW5kYWJs ZSBmaWVsZHMuICBUaGUgc3RhcnQtZW5naW5lIGJ1dHRvbiBpcyBOT1QgdGhlcmUgdG8gZ2V0 IG1lIG91dCBvZiBhIGphbSBub3IgaXMgaXQgYSBndWFyYW50ZWVkIGdldC1ob21lLWZyZWUg cGFzcy4gIEVWRVJZIHRpbWUgSSBnZXQgbG93LCBJIGZvbGxvdyB0aGUgc2FtZSDigJxhbHRp dHVkZSBmdW5uZWzigJ0gYXBwcm9hY2ggSSB0b29rIGluIHB1cmUgZ2xpZGVycywgcHJvZ3Jl c3NpdmVseSBob21pbmcgaW4gb24gbXkgbGFuZGFibGUgZmllbGQgYXMgSSBhdHRlbXB0IHRv IHNjcmF0Y2ggb3V0IG9mIGhvbGUuICBNeSBtaW5kc2V0IGlzIHRoYXQgaWYgSSBkb27igJl0 IHNjcmF0Y2ggb3V0IG9mIHRoZSBob2xlIEkgYW0gaW4sIEkgYW0gbGFuZGluZywgdGhhdCBp cyB1bnRpbCBJIGFtIHBsZWFzYW50bHkgc3VycHJpc2VkIGJ5IGFuIGVuZ2luZSBzdGFydC4N Cj4gDQo+IEFzIGZhciBhcyBwcmUtZmxpZ2h0IHBsYW5uaW5nLCBhZ2FpbiBmb3IgbWUgaGFy ZGx5IGFueSBkaWZmZXJlbmNlIG1vdG9yZ2xpZGluZyB2cyBwdXJlLiAgVGhlcmUgaXMgYWx3 YXlzIGEgYmFzaWMgcGxhbiBmb3IgbWUgdG8gYmUgdHJhY2thYmxlIChpbmNsdWRpbmcgaWYg SSBoYXZlIHRvIGp1bXAgb3V0LCBlLmcuIEluUmVhY2ggaW4gYSBTTUFLIFBhY2sgb24gbXkg Y2h1dGUpLCBhbmQgZm9yIHNvbWVvbmUgdG8gY29tZSBnZXQgbWUgaWYgKGFjdHVhbGx5LCB3 aGVuKSBteSBnZXQtaG9tZSBlbmdpbmUgc3RhcnQgZmFpbHMgYW5kIEkgbGFuZCBvdXQuICBU aGlzIGlzIHVzdWFsbHkgYW4gdW5kZXJzdGFuZGluZyB3aXRoIG15IG90aGVyIHNlbGYtbGF1 bmNoIGJ1ZGRpZXMgKEkgYWx3YXlzIGZseSBYQyB3aXRoIGEgYnVkZHksIGF0IGxlYXN0IHNv bWVvbmUgZmx5aW5nIG91dCBvZiB0aGUgc2FtZSBhaXJwb3J0IGFuZCBpbiB0aGUgc2FtZSBn ZW5lcmFsIHNvYXJpbmcgYXJlbmEsIG9yIHdpdGgga25vd2xlZGdlIG9mIG15IHBsYW5zIGFu ZCBhY3RpdmVseSB0cmFja2luZyBtZSBhbmQgYXZhaWxhYmxlIGZvciByZXRyaWV2ZSkuDQo+ IA0KPiBUaGVyZSBhcmUgc29tZSBkZXRhaWwgZGlmZmVyZW5jZXM6DQo+IA0KPiBNeSBtb3Rv cmdsaWRlciBpcyBtb3JlIGNoYWxsZW5naW5nIHRvIGRpZyBvdXQgd2hlbiBsb3cgYW5kIGlu IHdlYWsgbGlmdCwgd2luZCwgZXRjLiBiZWNhdXNlIGl0IGlzIEhFQVZZICh3aW5nIGxvYWRp bmcvY2xpbWIgcGVyZm9ybWFuY2UpIGFuZCBCSUcgKG5vdCBhcyBtYW5ldXZlcmFibGUpLiAg SGVhdnkgYmVjYXVzZSBvZiB0aGUgZW5naW5lIGV0Yy4sIGUuZy4gbXkgd2luZyBsb2FkaW5n IGlzIGFib3V0IDkuMiBsYiBwZXIgc3EgZnQgdnMgNy42IHdpdGggbXkgQVNXLTIwLiAgVGhl cmUgaGF2ZSBiZWVuIGEgZmV3IGluc3RhbmNlcyB3aGVyZSBJIOKAnGxhbmRlZCBvdXTigJ0g KGdldC1ob21lIGVuZ2luZSBzdGFydCkgb24gd2VhayBjb21wZXRpdGlvbiBkYXlzIHdoZW4g bXkgcHVyZSBnbGlkZXIgYnVkZGllcyBkdW1wZWQgdGhlaXIgd2F0ZXIgYmFsbGFzdCBhbmQg Y2xpbWJlZCBvdXQgaW4gdGhlIHdlYWsgc3R1ZmYgdGhhdCBjb3VsZG7igJl0IGtlZXAgbWUg dXAuICBJIGFjY2VwdCB0aGlzIGFzIHRoZSBwcmljZSB0byBwYXkgZm9yIHRoZSBzZWxmLXJl dHJpZXZlIGFuZCBzZWxmLWxhdW5jaCBjb252ZW5pZW5jZS4gIFRoaXMgYWRkcyBhbiBhZGRp dGlvbmFsIGNvbnNlcnZhdGl2ZSBmYWN0b3IgdG8gbXkgZmx5aW5nLg0KPiANCj4gQnV0IHRo ZSBiaWdnZXN0IGRpZmZlcmVuY2UgaXMgaW5jcmVhc2VkIGNvbnNlcnZhdGlzbSBpbiBteSBv ZmYtZmllbGQgbGFuZGluZyBjaG9pY2VzIGFuZCBteSDigJxoYXJkIGRlY2vigJ0gZGlzY2lw bGluZS4gIE15IGJpZyBoZWF2eSBzZWxmLWxhdW5jaGVyIGxhbmRzIHdpdGggc2lnbmlmaWNh bnRseSBtb3JlIGVuZXJneSB0aGFuIG15IHB1cmUgZ2xpZGVyLCBzbyBteSBvZmYtYWlycG9y dCBmaWVsZCBjaG9pY2VzIGFyZSBtb3JlIGxpbWl0ZWQuICBJIGNhbm5vdCBsYW5kIGFzIHNo b3J0IG9yIGFzIHNsb3cgYXMgSSBjb3VsZCBpbiBteSBwdXJlIGdsaWRlciBBU1ctMjAuICBT byBJIHN0aWNrIHdpdGggYmlnZ2VyIGZpZWxkcy4gIEFuZCByZWdhcmRpbmcgbXkg4oCcaGFy ZCBkZWNr4oCdIGZvciBzdG9wcGluZyBzb2FyaW5nIGFuZCBjb21taXR0aW5nIHRvIGxhbmRp bmcgKG9yIGdldC1ob21lIGVuZ2luZSBzdGFydCwgdHJlYXRlZCBhcyBhIHBsZWFzYW50IHN1 cnByaXNlIG9mIGNvdXJzZSEpLCBJIGhhdmUgZW5kZWQgdXAgYXQgMTIwMCBmdCBBR0wgb24g ZG93bndpbmQsIGFib3V0IHR3aWNlIGFzIGhpZ2ggYXMgSSB3YXMgd2lsbGluZyB0byBnbyB3 aXRoIG15IHB1cmUgZ2xpZGVyIEFTVy0yMC4gIEkgYWN0dWFsbHkgd29ya2VkIG15IG1vdG9y Z2xpZGVyIGhhcmQgZGVjayBkb3duIHRvIDgwMCBmdCBvbiBkb3dud2luZCBhdCBvbmUgcG9p bnQsIGJ1dCB0aGVuIEkgZXhwZXJpZW5jZWQganVzdCBob3cgbGl0dGxlIG1hcmdpbiB0aGlz IGdhdmUgbWUgaWYgdGhlcmUgaXMgQU5ZIGRlbGF5IG9yIGludGVycnVwdGlvbiBpbiB0aGUg ZW5naW5lIHN0YXJ0IHByb2NlZHVyZS4gIEJ1bXBlZCBpdCBiYWNrIHVwIHRvIDEyMDAgZnQs IHRvIGtlZXAgbXkgaGVhcnQgcmF0ZSBkb3duIHRvIHJlYXNvbmFibGUgbGV2ZWxzISEhISEg IEJUVywgSSBhbSBmdWxseSByZWFkeSB0byBsYW5kIG9mZi1haXJwb3J0IHdpdGggbXkgZW5n aW5lL3Byb3Agc3R1Y2svZmFpbGVkIGZ1bGx5IGV4dGVuZGVkLCBJIGhhdmUgZG9uZSBzZXZl cmFsIHRyYWluaW5nIGxhbmRpbmdzIGluIHRoaXMgY29uZmlndXJhdGlvbiwgYW5kIEkga25v dyBob3cgdGhlIGFpcmNyYWZ0IGJlaGF2ZXMgKHF1aXRlIHdlbGwsIHJlYWxseSkuDQo+IA0K PiBBbm90aGVyIGlkZWEgaGVyZTogIElmIHRoaW5ncyBnZXQgaGFpcnksIGFuZCBJIGFtIHNl dCB1cCB0byBsYW5kIGF0IGFuIGFpcnBvcnQgdGhhdCBJIGNvdWxkIHNlbGYtbGF1bmNoIG91 dCBvZiwgSSB3aWxsIHN0cm9uZ2x5IGNvbnNpZGVyIGp1c3QgbGFuZGluZyB3aXRob3V0IGV2 ZW4gYXR0ZW1wdGluZyBhbiBpbi1haXIgc3RhcnQuICBKdXN0IGxhbmQsIG1lZXQgdGhlIGxv Y2FscyAoYWxtb3N0IGFsd2F5cyBhIHBsZWFzdXJlKSwgYW5kIHRoZW4gc2VsZi1sYXVuY2gg dG8gaGVhZCBob21lISAgSSBoYXZlbuKAmXQgZG9uZSB0aGlzIHlldCwgYnV0IGl0IGlzIGRl ZmluaXRlbHkgaW4gbXkgbWluZCBpZiBJIGVuZCB1cCBpbiBhIHN0cmVzc2Z1bCBzaXR1YXRp b24gYW5kIHdhbnQgdG8gc2tpcCBhIHN0YXJ0IGF0dGVtcHQuDQo+IA0KPiBBbm90aGVyIHZl cnkgaW1wb3J0YW50IHN1YnRsZXR5OiAgTm90ZSB0aGF0IHdoZW4gZmx5aW5nIHRoZSBoaWdo IGNvdW50cnkgKGV4YW1wbGU6IHRoZSBSb2NraWVzIHdlc3Qgb2YgRGVudmVyIGFuZCBlYXN0 IG9mIEdyYW5kIEp1bmN0aW9uKSB0aGUgZW5naW5lIGlzIGxpdHRsZSBtb3JlIHRoYW4gYmFs bGFzdCwgYmVjYXVzZSB3aGVuIGF0IHBlYWsgYW5kIHBhc3MgYWx0aXR1ZGVzIHlvdSBhcmUg dXAgd2hlcmUgdGhlIHVuZGVyLXBvd2VyIGNsaW1iIHJhdGVzIGFyZSBwaXRpZnVsIG9yIG5v bi1leGlzdGVudC4gIFlvdSBwcm9iYWJseSBjYW5ub3QgbW90b3IgaG9tZSB1bmxlc3MgeW91 IGFyZSBpbiB0aGUgdmFsbGV5cyB0aGF0IGZlZWQgdG8geW91ciBob21lIGFpcnBvcnQuICBT byB5b3UgYmV0dGVyIGhhdmUgbGFuZGFibGUgZmllbGRzIGF2YWlsYWJsZS4gIFNvLCBqdXN0 IGxpa2UgYSBwdXJlIGdsaWRlcuKApi4uDQo+IA0KPiBUaGUgZmluYWwgZGlmZmVyZW5jZSBm b3IgbWUgaXMgc2ltcGx5IHRoZSBmcmVlZG9tIHRvIGV4cGxvcmUgdGhhdCB0aGUgbW90b3Jn bGlkZXIgb2ZmZXJzLiAgSSBoYXZlbuKAmXQgdXNlZCB0aGlzIHZlcnkgbXVjaCB5ZXQgKGV4 Y2VwdCB0aGUgYWJpbGl0eSB0byBmbHkgc2l0ZXMgd2hpY2ggZG9u4oCZdCBoYXZlIHRvd3Bs YW5lcywgSSB1c2UgdGhhdCBhIGxvdCBvbiBteSBhbm51YWwgd2VzdGVybiBzb2FyaW5nIHNh ZmFyaXMpLiAgQnV0IEVyaWMgaXMgbXkgaGVybyBpbiB0aGlzIHJlZ2FyZCwgaGUgZG9lcyBp dCB3ZWxsLiAgVGhlIGlkZWEgaXMgdG8gdXNlIHRoZSBtb3RvciBpZiBuZWNlc3NhcnkgdG8g ZXh0ZW5kIHRoZSBzb2FyaW5nIGRheSBhbmQvb3IgcmVhY2ggdGhhdCB2ZXJ5LWludGVyZXN0 aW5nIHNvYXJpbmcgYXJlYSB3aGljaCB3b3VsZCBiZSBvdGhlcndpc2UgaW5hY2Nlc3NpYmxl LiAgTm8gY2xhaW0gdGhhdCB0aGlzIGlzIOKAnHB1cmUgc29hcmluZ+KAnSwgYnV0IGl0IHN1 cmUgbG9va3MgdG8gbWUgbGlrZSBncmVhdCBmdW4uICBBbiBleGFtcGxlOiAgQXBwYXJlbnRs eSB0aGVyZSBpcyBzb21lb25lIGZseWluZyBhIFBpcHBlbnNvbWV0aGluZyAodmVyeSBjb29s IHRvdXJpbmcgbW90b3JnbGlkZXJzIGluIG15IG9waW5pb24pIGluIEZsb3JpZGEgd2hvIG1v dG9ycyB0byB0aGUgZ29vZCBzb2FyaW5nLCBzb2FycywgYW5kIHRoZW4gbW90b3JzIGJhY2sg aG9tZS4gIEFuZCBJIGtub3cgb3RoZXJzIHdobyBkbyBzaW1pbGFyIHdpdGggb3RoZXIgdG91 cmluZyBtb3RvcmdsaWRlcnMsIGhhdmluZyBncmVhdCBmdW4gZG9pbmcgc28uICBLdWRvcyEg IE5vYm9keSBJIGtub3cgb2YgcmVwcmVzZW50cyB0aGVzZSBhIOKAnHB1cmXigJ0gc29hcmlu ZywgYnV0IHRoZXkgYXJlIGhhdmluZyBmdW4gaXQgbG9va3MgbGlrZS4gIE15IHBoaWxvc29w aHksIGp1c3QgZ2V0IG91dCB0aGVyZSBhbmQgaGF2ZSBmdW4sIHdpdGggdGhlIGZyZWVkb20g dGhhdCB5b3VyIHBhcnRpY3VsYXIgbWFjaGluZSBvZmZlcnMgeW91IQ0KPiANCj4gT25lIGZp bmFsIGNvbnNpZGVyYXRpb246ICBPbmNlIEkgaGF2ZSBiZWVuIHBsZWFzYW50bHkgc3VycHJp c2VkIGJ5IGFuIGVuZ2luZSBzdGFydCwgSSBTVElMTCBmbHkgaXQgbGlrZSBhIGdsaWRlci4g IEkgd29u4oCZdCBsZWF2ZSB0aGUgc2FmZXR5IG9mIGJlaW5nIGluIGEg4oCcZnVubmVs4oCd IHRvIGEgbGFuZGFibGUgZmllbGQgZXZlbiB3aGVuIHVuZGVyIHBvd2VyLiAgTXkgZW5naW5l IHdoZW4gcnVubmluZyBpcyBhIOKAnHRpY2tpbmcgdGltZSBib21i4oCdIG9uIGl0cyB3YXkg dG8gcHJlbWF0dXJlIHNodXRkb3duLCBhcyBmYXIgYXMgSSBhbSBjb25jZXJuZWQuDQo+IA0K PiBJIGhhdmUgc2luY2VyZWx5IHRyaWVkIHRvIGFuYWx5emUgbW90b3JnbGlkZXIgb3BlcmF0 aW9ucyBpbiBhbiBhdHRlbXB0IHRvIGVuaGFuY2UgbXkgc2FmZXR5IGFuZCBlbmpveW1lbnQu ICBJIGhvcGUgdGhlc2UgaWRlYXMgY2FuIGJlIHVzZWZ1bCB0byBvdGhlcnMuICBTbyB0aGVy ZSB3ZSBnbywgb3BlbiBmb3IgcG9saXRlIGFuZCBwb3NpdGl2ZSBjb21tZW50cywgZXNwZWNp YWxseSBpZiBzb21lb25lIHNlZXMgYSBub24tY29uc2VydmF0aXZlIG9yIGxlc3MtdGhhbi1z YWZlIGFzcGVjdCB0byBteSBhcHByb2FjaC4gIExvdHMgdG8gbGVhcm4gaGVyZSBJIGFtIHN1 cmUuDQo+IA0KPiBDaGVlcnMsDQo+IEppbSBKNg0KPiANCj4gDQo+IE9uIFN1bmRheSwgTWF5 IDEsIDIwMjIgYXQgMTE6NDg6NDIgQU0gVVRDLTUsIEo2IGFrYSBBaXJwb3J0IEJ1bSB3cm90 ZToNCj4+IEkgbm90ZWQgYW4gaW50ZXJlc3Rpbmcgc3ViamVjdCBjb21pbmcgdXAgaW4gYW4g b3RoZXJ3aXNlIG5vbi1wcm9kdWN0aXZlIHBvc3Qgb24gdGhpcyBncm91cCwgIkhvdyBkb2Vz IHNvYXJpbmcgWEMgZmxpZ2h0IHBsYW5uaW5nL2NvbmR1Y3QgZGlmZmVyIE1vdG9yZ2xpZGVy IHZzIFB1cmUgZ2xpZGVyPyINCg==

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 12:48:42 PM UTC-4, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:

I noted an interesting subject coming up in an otherwise non-productive post on this group, "How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vs Pure glider?"

So, in the interest of generating positive and educational discussion on this subject, I am opening this new conversation. I would like to make this a "judgement free zone", by which I mean let's just hear about how soaring XC flight planning and

conduct have changed now that you are flying a motorglider vs a pure glider, and perhaps some polite non-judgemental discussion on our fellow motorglider pilot's posts.

It is relevant to understand the commenter's pure vs motorglider experience in regard to this question, I believe, so let's start each post with a little on that about yourself. The vast majority of the current motorglider pilot population has had

extensive pure glider experience before taking up the motorglider I think, so my expectation is that there will be lots of productive comparison insights and tips gained here. At least that is my hope.

So, motorglider pilots, please offer up your experience and ideas on this subject, I'll bet we'll all learn some useful things. Remember, "judgement free" please. If a post states something that you would like to challenge for any reason (less-than-

safe, factually incorrect, etc.) please be polite and non-confrontational in your reply.

I'll go first, with the next post to this conversation. I will document my experience probably in more detail than required, just to kick things off with ideas on how you might describe your relevant experience levels. Don't feel compelled to write up

as much detail, we primarily want your insights, ideas, and tips.

Cheers,
Jim J6

The only difference for me is that i can fly some days I otherwise could not fly because I don't need a tow. I tow or instruct on weekends and never fly my ships then, but I have the option to launch myself on a Wednesday and go soaring.
I do not fly any differently with or without the power system.
UH

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 6:27:20 PM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 12:48:42 PM UTC-4, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:

I noted an interesting subject coming up in an otherwise non-productive post on this group, "How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vs Pure glider?"

So, in the interest of generating positive and educational discussion on this subject, I am opening this new conversation. I would like to make this a "judgement free zone", by which I mean let's just hear about how soaring XC flight planning and

conduct have changed now that you are flying a motorglider vs a pure glider, and perhaps some polite non-judgemental discussion on our fellow motorglider pilot's posts.

It is relevant to understand the commenter's pure vs motorglider experience in regard to this question, I believe, so let's start each post with a little on that about yourself. The vast majority of the current motorglider pilot population has had

extensive pure glider experience before taking up the motorglider I think, so my expectation is that there will be lots of productive comparison insights and tips gained here. At least that is my hope.

So, motorglider pilots, please offer up your experience and ideas on this subject, I'll bet we'll all learn some useful things. Remember, "judgement free" please. If a post states something that you would like to challenge for any reason (less-than-

safe, factually incorrect, etc.) please be polite and non-confrontational in your reply.

I'll go first, with the next post to this conversation. I will document my experience probably in more detail than required, just to kick things off with ideas on how you might describe your relevant experience levels. Don't feel compelled to write

up as much detail, we primarily want your insights, ideas, and tips.

Cheers,
Jim J6

The only difference for me is that i can fly some days I otherwise could not fly because I don't need a tow. I tow or instruct on weekends and never fly my ships then, but I have the option to launch myself on a Wednesday and go soaring.
I do not fly any differently with or without the power system.
UH

What Jim and Hank said! About 1200 hr in a ASW20, than a '27. About 15 non-airport landings.Then about 600 in 2 different DG8xx. The first DG800B caused a landout on my first self launched flight!
Taught a cheap lesson on putting faith in the motor. A later flight, in a contest, led to a "strategic" airport landing, claim the airport bonus, then launch and motor home. But 2 attempts at takeoff were aborted due failure to reach full power! My
second DG, a 808C Competition, can go from initiating the sequence to climb power in about 15 sec with a loss of height of 75 ft. My non-ballasted, full fuel wing loading is 8.4 lb/sq ft. I can ballast to 10.4 lb/sq ft. So, about the same wing loading as
my '27. I really don't plan or do anything I wouldn't have done in the '20 or '27. I am a bit more cautious as a failed engine start means a nearly immediate landing. Landing with engine extended is pretty much a no brainer--The '808 becomes a bad K21

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 5/1/2022 9:49 AM, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:

But the biggest difference is increased conservatism in my off-field landing choices and my “hard deck” discipline. My big heavy self-launcher lands with significantly more energy than my pure glider, so my off-airport field choices are more

limited. I cannot land as short or as slow as I could in my pure glider ASW-20. So I stick with bigger fields.

My experience and concern is identical to Jim's: My ASW20C was significantly easier to
land in a field. There is another issue: the weight of the motorglider makes it harder to
retrieve. The fuselage on my ASH26E weighs 500 lbs, far more than the fuselage on the
ASW20C, so getting it out of a farmer's field could be very difficult. As result, I
strongly favor doing a restart over an airport. This factor, along with the higher minimum
wing loading, means I don't "save" as many flights as I used to.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 10:10:33 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 5/1/2022 9:49 AM, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:

But the biggest difference is increased conservatism in my off-field landing choices and my “hard deck” discipline. My big heavy self-launcher lands with significantly more energy than my pure glider, so my off-airport field choices are more

limited. I cannot land as short or as slow as I could in my pure glider ASW-20. So I stick with bigger fields.

My experience and concern is identical to Jim's: My ASW20C was significantly easier to
land in a field. There is another issue: the weight of the motorglider makes it harder to
retrieve. The fuselage on my ASH26E weighs 500 lbs, far more than the fuselage on the
ASW20C, so getting it out of a farmer's field could be very difficult. As result, I
strongly favor doing a restart over an airport. This factor, along with the higher minimum
wing loading, means I don't "save" as many flights as I used to.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

I have not tried it yet, but my Ventus cT manual gives excellent directions on how to remove the engine thus dropping that ballast.
Seems it was designed to be relatively easy to remove the engine and re-install. Again, I have not actually tried it but I know others that have.
Mike N.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 5/1/2022 12:48 PM, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:

I noted an interesting subject coming up in an otherwise non-productive post on this group, "How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vs Pure glider?"

So, in the interest of generating positive and educational discussion on this subject, I am opening this new conversation. I would like to make this a "judgement free zone", by which I mean let's just hear about how soaring XC flight planning and

conduct have changed now that you are flying a motorglider vs a pure glider, and perhaps some polite non-judgemental discussion on our fellow motorglider pilot's posts.

It is relevant to understand the commenter's pure vs motorglider experience in regard to this question, I believe, so let's start each post with a little on that about yourself. The vast majority of the current motorglider pilot population has had

extensive pure glider experience before taking up the motorglider I think, so my expectation is that there will be lots of productive comparison insights and tips gained here. At least that is my hope.

So, motorglider pilots, please offer up your experience and ideas on this subject, I'll bet we'll all learn some useful things. Remember, "judgement free" please. If a post states something that you would like to challenge for any reason (less-than-

safe, factually incorrect, etc.) please be polite and non-confrontational in your reply.

I'll go first, with the next post to this conversation. I will document my experience probably in more detail than required, just to kick things off with ideas on how you might describe your relevant experience levels. Don't feel compelled to write

up as much detail, we primarily want your insights, ideas, and tips.

Cheers,
Jim J6

As Jim knows, decision height for attempting a motor start is a lot
higher than landing decision height for a pure glider. In last R5N
contest during weak stretches, twice I detoured to position where I
could turn to final at a larger airport and attempt an air-start (where
in a pure glider I would have stuck to the course line), and both times
I climbed out. A failed air-start would have been easy straight-ahead
landing.

I will try to finish that article in the next week or two, at least put
out a public draft...

See ya, Dave "YO" (>2500 hours in motor-gliders, gas and electric).

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 12:29:15 PM UTC-7, d...@nadler.com wrote:

On 5/1/2022 12:48 PM, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:

I noted an interesting subject coming up in an otherwise non-productive post on this group, "How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vs Pure glider?"

So, in the interest of generating positive and educational discussion on this subject, I am opening this new conversation. I would like to make this a "judgement free zone", by which I mean let's just hear about how soaring XC flight planning and

conduct have changed now that you are flying a motorglider vs a pure glider, and perhaps some polite non-judgemental discussion on our fellow motorglider pilot's posts.

It is relevant to understand the commenter's pure vs motorglider experience in regard to this question, I believe, so let's start each post with a little on that about yourself. The vast majority of the current motorglider pilot population has had

extensive pure glider experience before taking up the motorglider I think, so my expectation is that there will be lots of productive comparison insights and tips gained here. At least that is my hope.

So, motorglider pilots, please offer up your experience and ideas on this subject, I'll bet we'll all learn some useful things. Remember, "judgement free" please. If a post states something that you would like to challenge for any reason (less-than-

safe, factually incorrect, etc.) please be polite and non-confrontational in your reply.

I'll go first, with the next post to this conversation. I will document my experience probably in more detail than required, just to kick things off with ideas on how you might describe your relevant experience levels. Don't feel compelled to write

up as much detail, we primarily want your insights, ideas, and tips.

Cheers,
Jim J6

As Jim knows, decision height for attempting a motor start is a lot
higher than landing decision height for a pure glider. In last R5N
contest during weak stretches, twice I detoured to position where I
could turn to final at a larger airport and attempt an air-start (where
in a pure glider I would have stuck to the course line), and both times
I climbed out. A failed air-start would have been easy straight-ahead landing.

I will try to finish that article in the next week or two, at least put
out a public draft...

See ya, Dave "YO" (>2500 hours in motor-gliders, gas and electric).

I concur with all that has been said here, but will add one more thing: when planning a flight I know when I can launch vs waiting in a launch line that might be up to two hours long. It is impossible to do a long flight if your launch is delayed by as
little as 30 minutes.

Tom

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)