Right when things are somewhat calm and the snowbirds are headed back up north the weather finally gets good and we were able to get a few good glider flights in the books. The motorglider drivers up at Seminole had some nice flights and discovered that
the Florida spring had arrived a bit late.
Now comes the disturbing news, my fellow glider pilot and purist informed me that he had sold his 27 and was taking delivery of a motorglider. Now this is a good guy that I met back long ago only to realize that we were from the same area in Georgia. now
this makes two of my good friends that have gone to the dark side during the past few weeks. I have been pondering what would cause two perfectly good guys to convert and go to the other side, this would be like me a UM guy pulling for the Gators or an
Alabama fan pulling for Auburn, it just doesn't happen. I know that both of these fine gentlemen did not drink the same water from the Coosa River.
Wow, what is happening, next thing you know my dog will be looking at motorgliders and trying to convince me to get one, I told Eileen to change the dogs medication. So, the best thing about this whole scenario is that I will have to buy two less
Christmas cards and save money on the postage.
As for me I will keep flying that antique 27 and Eileen will stay with the 24 and hopefully the dog will recover.
Enjoy those motorgliders my friends, call me if you need a tow, or come on down to Vero and we will tape those doors shut and go for a flight. Old Bob, The Purist

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 4/28/2022 5:20 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

Right when things are somewhat calm and the snowbirds are headed back up north the weather finally gets good and we were able to get a few good glider flights in the books. The motorglider drivers up at Seminole had some nice flights and discovered

that the Florida spring had arrived a bit late.

Now comes the disturbing news, my fellow glider pilot and purist informed me that he had sold his 27 and was taking delivery of a motorglider. Now this is a good guy that I met back long ago only to realize that we were from the same area in Georgia.

now this makes two of my good friends that have gone to the dark side during the past few weeks. I have been pondering what would cause two perfectly good guys to convert and go to the other side, this would be like me a UM guy pulling for the Gators or
an Alabama fan pulling for Auburn, it just doesn't happen. I know that both of these fine gentlemen did not drink the same water from the Coosa River.

Wow, what is happening, next thing you know my dog will be looking at motorgliders and trying to convince me to get one, I told Eileen to change the dogs medication. So, the best thing about this whole scenario is that I will have to buy two less

Christmas cards and save money on the postage.

As for me I will keep flying that antique 27 and Eileen will stay with the 24 and hopefully the dog will recover.
Enjoy those motorgliders my friends, call me if you need a tow, or come on down to Vero and we will tape those doors shut and go for a flight. Old Bob, The Purist

Ol' Bob, you got to do some thinking, and then you'll realize a motorglider is like good
dog: he's always there when you need him. Now, I can't say that about a towplane, which
can be down for maintenance, or at the gas pump, or out playing around with someone else's
rope, and I can't say that about a towpilot, who often apparently think they have a life
that doesn't always include me.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Bob, you can't stop progress, no matter how hard you try. But it is good to see someone getting along with muskets, spats, dial telephone land lines, wind up watches, lava lamps, 3-on-the-column shifts, and string towed gliders. So my friend, come out
here and take a flight - oh wait a minute, you'll need a tow plane and we are fresh out......
On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 5:20:21 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

Right when things are somewhat calm and the snowbirds are headed back up north the weather finally gets good and we were able to get a few good glider flights in the books. The motorglider drivers up at Seminole had some nice flights and discovered

that the Florida spring had arrived a bit late.

Now comes the disturbing news, my fellow glider pilot and purist informed me that he had sold his 27 and was taking delivery of a motorglider. Now this is a good guy that I met back long ago only to realize that we were from the same area in Georgia.

now this makes two of my good friends that have gone to the dark side during the past few weeks. I have been pondering what would cause two perfectly good guys to convert and go to the other side, this would be like me a UM guy pulling for the Gators or
an Alabama fan pulling for Auburn, it just doesn't happen. I know that both of these fine gentlemen did not drink the same water from the Coosa River.

Wow, what is happening, next thing you know my dog will be looking at motorgliders and trying to convince me to get one, I told Eileen to change the dogs medication. So, the best thing about this whole scenario is that I will have to buy two less

Christmas cards and save money on the postage.

As for me I will keep flying that antique 27 and Eileen will stay with the 24 and hopefully the dog will recover.
Enjoy those motorgliders my friends, call me if you need a tow, or come on down to Vero and we will tape those doors shut and go for a flight. Old Bob, The Purist

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 1:17:02 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Bob, you can't stop progress, no matter how hard you try. But it is good to see someone getting along with muskets, spats, dial telephone land lines, wind up watches, lava lamps, 3-on-the-column shifts, and string towed gliders. So my friend, come out

here and take a flight - oh wait a minute, you'll need a tow plane and we are fresh out......

On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 5:20:21 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

Right when things are somewhat calm and the snowbirds are headed back up north the weather finally gets good and we were able to get a few good glider flights in the books. The motorglider drivers up at Seminole had some nice flights and discovered

that the Florida spring had arrived a bit late.

Now comes the disturbing news, my fellow glider pilot and purist informed me that he had sold his 27 and was taking delivery of a motorglider. Now this is a good guy that I met back long ago only to realize that we were from the same area in Georgia.

now this makes two of my good friends that have gone to the dark side during the past few weeks. I have been pondering what would cause two perfectly good guys to convert and go to the other side, this would be like me a UM guy pulling for the Gators or
an Alabama fan pulling for Auburn, it just doesn't happen. I know that both of these fine gentlemen did not drink the same water from the Coosa River.

Wow, what is happening, next thing you know my dog will be looking at motorgliders and trying to convince me to get one, I told Eileen to change the dogs medication. So, the best thing about this whole scenario is that I will have to buy two less

Christmas cards and save money on the postage.

As for me I will keep flying that antique 27 and Eileen will stay with the 24 and hopefully the dog will recover.
Enjoy those motorgliders my friends, call me if you need a tow, or come on down to Vero and we will tape those doors shut and go for a flight. Old Bob, The Purist

Thanks for the invite Fitch, it would be a long cold trip for this old flip flop wearing Purist to make only to be denied a tow. I think back through last year alone and I was able to make 1000 tows and put a smile on many faces with my beautiful Pawnee,
AKA, Towpecker. Old Bob, The Purist

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 4/29/2022 4:29 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 1:17:02 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Bob, you can't stop progress, no matter how hard you try. But it is good to see someone getting along with muskets, spats, dial telephone land lines, wind up watches, lava lamps, 3-on-the-column shifts, and string towed gliders. So my friend, come out

here and take a flight - oh wait a minute, you'll need a tow plane and we are fresh out......

On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 5:20:21 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote: >>> Right when things are somewhat calm and the snowbirds are headed back up north the weather finally gets good and we were able to get a few good glider flights in the books. The motorglider drivers up at Seminole had some nice flights and discovered

that the Florida spring had arrived a bit late.

Now comes the disturbing news, my fellow glider pilot and purist informed me that he had sold his 27 and was taking delivery of a motorglider. Now this is a good guy that I met back long ago only to realize that we were from the same area in Georgia.

now this makes two of my good friends that have gone to the dark side during the past few weeks. I have been pondering what would cause two perfectly good guys to convert and go to the other side, this would be like me a UM guy pulling for the Gators or
an Alabama fan pulling for Auburn, it just doesn't happen. I know that both of these fine gentlemen did not drink the same water from the Coosa River.

Wow, what is happening, next thing you know my dog will be looking at motorgliders and trying to convince me to get one, I told Eileen to change the dogs medication. So, the best thing about this whole scenario is that I will have to buy two less

Christmas cards and save money on the postage.

As for me I will keep flying that antique 27 and Eileen will stay with the 24 and hopefully the dog will recover.
Enjoy those motorgliders my friends, call me if you need a tow, or come on down to Vero and we will tape those doors shut and go for a flight. Old Bob, The Purist

Thanks for the invite Fitch, it would be a long cold trip for this old flip flop wearing Purist to make only to be denied a tow. I think back through last year alone and I was able to make 1000 tows and put a smile on many faces with my beautiful

Pawnee, AKA, Towpecker. Old Bob, The Purist

You have not understood, or at least not acknowledged, that most motorglider pilots had a
choice: use tows and fly less, or get a motor and fly more. They chose more soaring.
That's good, isn't it?
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 10:06:30 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 4/29/2022 4:29 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 1:17:02 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Bob, you can't stop progress, no matter how hard you try. But it is good to see someone getting along with muskets, spats, dial telephone land lines, wind up watches, lava lamps, 3-on-the-column shifts, and string towed gliders. So my friend, come

out here and take a flight - oh wait a minute, you'll need a tow plane and we are fresh out......

On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 5:20:21 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

Right when things are somewhat calm and the snowbirds are headed back up north the weather finally gets good and we were able to get a few good glider flights in the books. The motorglider drivers up at Seminole had some nice flights and discovered

that the Florida spring had arrived a bit late.

Now comes the disturbing news, my fellow glider pilot and purist informed me that he had sold his 27 and was taking delivery of a motorglider. Now this is a good guy that I met back long ago only to realize that we were from the same area in

Georgia. now this makes two of my good friends that have gone to the dark side during the past few weeks. I have been pondering what would cause two perfectly good guys to convert and go to the other side, this would be like me a UM guy pulling for the
Gators or an Alabama fan pulling for Auburn, it just doesn't happen. I know that both of these fine gentlemen did not drink the same water from the Coosa River.

Wow, what is happening, next thing you know my dog will be looking at motorgliders and trying to convince me to get one, I told Eileen to change the dogs medication. So, the best thing about this whole scenario is that I will have to buy two less

Christmas cards and save money on the postage.

As for me I will keep flying that antique 27 and Eileen will stay with the 24 and hopefully the dog will recover.
Enjoy those motorgliders my friends, call me if you need a tow, or come on down to Vero and we will tape those doors shut and go for a flight. Old Bob, The Purist

Thanks for the invite Fitch, it would be a long cold trip for this old flip flop wearing Purist to make only to be denied a tow. I think back through last year alone and I was able to make 1000 tows and put a smile on many faces with my beautiful

Pawnee, AKA, Towpecker. Old Bob, The Purist

You have not understood, or at least not acknowledged, that most motorglider pilots had a
choice: use tows and fly less, or get a motor and fly more. They chose more soaring.
That's good, isn't it?
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, I understand this situation extremely well, been doing this gig for a long time and still having fun. My observation on motor gliders and sustainers is right on target, I do not have a problem flying my pure glider over areas where land out is a
possibility, I must make good decisions unlike the motor glider drivers. The motor glider segment is for convenience, and I have no problem with that. When my skills erode to the point where I do not feel confident in making a challenging purist flight I
will just hang it up and move on to something new and exciting, but until that time comes I will be a purist. Old Bob, The Purist

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 4/29/2022 7:54 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 10:06:30 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

Enjoy those motorgliders my friends, call me if you need a tow, or come on down to Vero and we will tape those doors shut and go for a flight. Old Bob, The Purist

Thanks for the invite Fitch, it would be a long cold trip for this old flip flop wearing Purist to make only to be denied a tow. I think back through last year alone and I was able to make 1000 tows and put a smile on many faces with my beautiful

Pawnee, AKA, Towpecker. Old Bob, The Purist

You have not understood, or at least not acknowledged, that most motorglider pilots had a
choice: use tows and fly less, or get a motor and fly more. They chose more soaring.
That's good, isn't it?
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, I understand this situation extremely well, been doing this gig for a long time and still having fun. My observation on motor gliders and sustainers is right on target, I do not have a problem flying my pure glider over areas where land out is a

possibility, I must make good decisions unlike the motor glider drivers. The motor glider segment is for convenience, and I have no problem with that. When my skills erode to the point where I do not feel confident in making a challenging purist flight I
will just hang it up and move on to something new and exciting, but until that time comes I will be a purist. Old Bob, The Purist

Most of us, including you and me, want to avoid the inconvenience of landing away from our
home airport. Motorglider owners have chosen a motor to provide the convenience of making
it home; you've chosen to soar very cautiously to provide the convenience of making it
home. It's not a bad thing, as it's what most of the towed glider pilots do to varying
extents, but it's not what I consider "challenging" flying, which inevitably involves
landing away a few times a year. After all, if you always make it home, you are likely
leaving a lot soaring "on the table", and could've gone faster, farther, or longer, or all
of those.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 7:54:05 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 10:06:30 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 4/29/2022 4:29 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 1:17:02 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Bob, you can't stop progress, no matter how hard you try. But it is good to see someone getting along with muskets, spats, dial telephone land lines, wind up watches, lava lamps, 3-on-the-column shifts, and string towed gliders. So my friend, come

out here and take a flight - oh wait a minute, you'll need a tow plane and we are fresh out......

On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 5:20:21 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

Right when things are somewhat calm and the snowbirds are headed back up north the weather finally gets good and we were able to get a few good glider flights in the books. The motorglider drivers up at Seminole had some nice flights and

discovered that the Florida spring had arrived a bit late.

Now comes the disturbing news, my fellow glider pilot and purist informed me that he had sold his 27 and was taking delivery of a motorglider. Now this is a good guy that I met back long ago only to realize that we were from the same area in

Georgia. now this makes two of my good friends that have gone to the dark side during the past few weeks. I have been pondering what would cause two perfectly good guys to convert and go to the other side, this would be like me a UM guy pulling for the
Gators or an Alabama fan pulling for Auburn, it just doesn't happen. I know that both of these fine gentlemen did not drink the same water from the Coosa River.

Wow, what is happening, next thing you know my dog will be looking at motorgliders and trying to convince me to get one, I told Eileen to change the dogs medication. So, the best thing about this whole scenario is that I will have to buy two less

Christmas cards and save money on the postage.

As for me I will keep flying that antique 27 and Eileen will stay with the 24 and hopefully the dog will recover.
Enjoy those motorgliders my friends, call me if you need a tow, or come on down to Vero and we will tape those doors shut and go for a flight. Old Bob, The Purist

Thanks for the invite Fitch, it would be a long cold trip for this old flip flop wearing Purist to make only to be denied a tow. I think back through last year alone and I was able to make 1000 tows and put a smile on many faces with my beautiful

Pawnee, AKA, Towpecker. Old Bob, The Purist

You have not understood, or at least not acknowledged, that most motorglider pilots had a
choice: use tows and fly less, or get a motor and fly more. They chose more soaring.
That's good, isn't it?
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, I understand this situation extremely well, been doing this gig for a long time and still having fun. My observation on motor gliders and sustainers is right on target, I do not have a problem flying my pure glider over areas where land out is a

possibility, I must make good decisions unlike the motor glider drivers. The motor glider segment is for convenience, and I have no problem with that. When my skills erode to the point where I do not feel confident in making a challenging purist flight I
will just hang it up and move on to something new and exciting, but until that time comes I will be a purist. Old Bob, The Purist

You keep on calling yourself a purist, but you are anything but. You still use a motor to get your glider into the air, the only difference is where the motor is stored. Once launched, we don't use the motor again - this can be confirmed by hundreds of
OLC motorglider flights. A REAL purist uses no motor whatsoever, just a hill and a bungee cord (which can be really hard to find in FL!).

Tom

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 4:54:58 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 4/29/2022 7:54 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 10:06:30 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

Enjoy those motorgliders my friends, call me if you need a tow, or come on down to Vero and we will tape those doors shut and go for a flight. Old Bob, The Purist

Thanks for the invite Fitch, it would be a long cold trip for this old flip flop wearing Purist to make only to be denied a tow. I think back through last year alone and I was able to make 1000 tows and put a smile on many faces with my beautiful

Pawnee, AKA, Towpecker. Old Bob, The Purist

You have not understood, or at least not acknowledged, that most motorglider pilots had a
choice: use tows and fly less, or get a motor and fly more. They chose more soaring.
That's good, isn't it?
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, I understand this situation extremely well, been doing this gig for a long time and still having fun. My observation on motor gliders and sustainers is right on target, I do not have a problem flying my pure glider over areas where land out is

a possibility, I must make good decisions unlike the motor glider drivers. The motor glider segment is for convenience, and I have no problem with that. When my skills erode to the point where I do not feel confident in making a challenging purist flight
I will just hang it up and move on to something new and exciting, but until that time comes I will be a purist. Old Bob, The Purist

Most of us, including you and me, want to avoid the inconvenience of landing away from our
home airport. Motorglider owners have chosen a motor to provide the convenience of making
it home; you've chosen to soar very cautiously to provide the convenience of making it
home. It's not a bad thing, as it's what most of the towed glider pilots do to varying
extents, but it's not what I consider "challenging" flying, which inevitably involves
landing away a few times a year. After all, if you always make it home, you are likely
leaving a lot soaring "on the table", and could've gone faster, farther, or longer, or all
of those.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, please do not lose sleep over the Purist vs the MG ! I have not left a lot on the table during my years of glider flying, rather I still put down in strange places every now and then. I just understand that there is a huge difference between the
way I plan and conduct my flights vs the MG guys. Old Bob, The Purist

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 4/30/2022 3:31 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 4:54:58 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

Eric, I understand this situation extremely well, been doing this gig for a long time and still having fun. My observation on motor gliders and sustainers is right on target, I do not have a problem flying my pure glider over areas where land out is

a possibility, I must make good decisions unlike the motor glider drivers. The motor glider segment is for convenience, and I have no problem with that. When my skills erode to the point where I do not feel confident in making a challenging purist flight
I will just hang it up and move on to something new and exciting, but until that time comes I will be a purist. Old Bob, The Purist

Most of us, including you and me, want to avoid the inconvenience of landing away from our
home airport. Motorglider owners have chosen a motor to provide the convenience of making
it home; you've chosen to soar very cautiously to provide the convenience of making it
home. It's not a bad thing, as it's what most of the towed glider pilots do to varying
extents, but it's not what I consider "challenging" flying, which inevitably involves
landing away a few times a year. After all, if you always make it home, you are likely
leaving a lot soaring "on the table", and could've gone faster, farther, or longer, or all
of those.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, please do not lose sleep over the Purist vs the MG ! I have not left a lot on the table during my years of glider flying, rather I still put down in strange places every now and then. I just understand that there is a huge difference between the

way I plan and conduct my flights vs the MG guys. Old Bob, The Purist

Perhaps I have misjudged what I see on the OLC. How many retrieves have you had in the
last two or three years? How does your planning and flying differ from the MG guys? My
planning and flying did not change much when I got a motorglider, for example.

By the way, "motorglider guys" do not all have the same goals, priorities, and skills:
some soar cautiously and very rarely use the motor inflight; others push hard, and use the
motor much more frequently.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:53:56 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 4/30/2022 3:31 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 4:54:58 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

Eric, I understand this situation extremely well, been doing this gig for a long time and still having fun. My observation on motor gliders and sustainers is right on target, I do not have a problem flying my pure glider over areas where land out

is a possibility, I must make good decisions unlike the motor glider drivers. The motor glider segment is for convenience, and I have no problem with that. When my skills erode to the point where I do not feel confident in making a challenging purist
flight I will just hang it up and move on to something new and exciting, but until that time comes I will be a purist. Old Bob, The Purist

Most of us, including you and me, want to avoid the inconvenience of landing away from our
home airport. Motorglider owners have chosen a motor to provide the convenience of making
it home; you've chosen to soar very cautiously to provide the convenience of making it
home. It's not a bad thing, as it's what most of the towed glider pilots do to varying
extents, but it's not what I consider "challenging" flying, which inevitably involves
landing away a few times a year. After all, if you always make it home, you are likely
leaving a lot soaring "on the table", and could've gone faster, farther, or longer, or all
of those.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, please do not lose sleep over the Purist vs the MG ! I have not left a lot on the table during my years of glider flying, rather I still put down in strange places every now and then. I just understand that there is a huge difference between

the way I plan and conduct my flights vs the MG guys. Old Bob, The Purist

Perhaps I have misjudged what I see on the OLC. How many retrieves have you had in the
last two or three years? How does your planning and flying differ from the MG guys? My
planning and flying did not change much when I got a motorglider, for example.

By the way, "motorglider guys" do not all have the same goals, priorities, and skills:
some soar cautiously and very rarely use the motor inflight; others push hard, and use the
motor much more frequently.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, I have had retrieves during the past few years and yes I will have more in the future. Yes, us purist do plan our flights accordingly and different from the MG guys and gals, we cannot make as many mistakes and therefore must optimize every
opportunity. Simply stated and understood is the fact that we do not have that get home free pass hanging around our necks. What you and others have failed to acknowledge is the fact that purist flights are much more demanding and require mush better
planning and execution that motor glider flights, we simply do not get a second chance.
You asked the question, 'How does my flight planning differ from MG flights", simple reply is that I do not have a get me out of this jam button to make me look like a hero! I think that your flights and planning differed more than you realize when you
got a MG, I look at this guy in Florida that is flying some type of Pippencrap? and takes off from Boca and motors out for a while and then tries gliding only to start the motor back up to get home and scores his points on OLC and I just shake my head
and laugh! Even "The Bum", would laugh at that scenario.
what amuses me is the fact that many MG guys and probably including yourself think that there is no difference between the purist flight and the saved by the start button switch flight. Do you think that I realize that there is a convenience of having a
self launch, why heck yes, I have no problem with self launch, finding old guys like myself and my old Pawnee are like the flip phone, hardly can find one anymore.
So, what and how should the purist flight be scored differently than the MG flight? The purist flight should be given extra OLC points because of the void of the start button or the as I call it the beam me up Scotty button.
I hope that I have answered your questions regarding Purist flights vs MG flights. Take care and I will pray that your Solo engine continues to run. Old Bob, The Purist

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 4/30/2022 5:33 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:53:56 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 4/30/2022 3:31 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 4:54:58 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

Eric, I understand this situation extremely well, been doing this gig for a long time and still having fun. My observation on motor gliders and sustainers is right on target, I do not have a problem flying my pure glider over areas where land out

is a possibility, I must make good decisions unlike the motor glider drivers. The motor glider segment is for convenience, and I have no problem with that. When my skills erode to the point where I do not feel confident in making a challenging purist
flight I will just hang it up and move on to something new and exciting, but until that time comes I will be a purist. Old Bob, The Purist

Most of us, including you and me, want to avoid the inconvenience of landing away from our
home airport. Motorglider owners have chosen a motor to provide the convenience of making
it home; you've chosen to soar very cautiously to provide the convenience of making it
home. It's not a bad thing, as it's what most of the towed glider pilots do to varying
extents, but it's not what I consider "challenging" flying, which inevitably involves
landing away a few times a year. After all, if you always make it home, you are likely
leaving a lot soaring "on the table", and could've gone faster, farther, or longer, or all
of those.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, please do not lose sleep over the Purist vs the MG ! I have not left a lot on the table during my years of glider flying, rather I still put down in strange places every now and then. I just understand that there is a huge difference between

the way I plan and conduct my flights vs the MG guys. Old Bob, The Purist

Perhaps I have misjudged what I see on the OLC. How many retrieves have you had in the
last two or three years? How does your planning and flying differ from the MG guys? My
planning and flying did not change much when I got a motorglider, for example.

By the way, "motorglider guys" do not all have the same goals, priorities, and skills:
some soar cautiously and very rarely use the motor inflight; others push hard, and use the
motor much more frequently.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, I have had retrieves during the past few years and yes I will have more in the future. Yes, us purist do plan our flights accordingly and different from the MG guys and gals, we cannot make as many mistakes and therefore must optimize every

opportunity. Simply stated and understood is the fact that we do not have that get home free pass hanging around our necks. What you and others have failed to acknowledge is the fact that purist flights are much more demanding and require mush better
planning and execution that motor glider flights, we simply do not get a second chance.

You asked the question, 'How does my flight planning differ from MG flights", simple reply is that I do not have a get me out of this jam button to make me look like a hero! I think that your flights and planning differed more than you realize when you

got a MG, I look at this guy in Florida that is flying some type of Pippencrap? and takes off from Boca and motors out for a while and then tries gliding only to start the motor back up to get home and scores his points on OLC and I just shake my head
and laugh! Even "The Bum", would laugh at that scenario.

what amuses me is the fact that many MG guys and probably including yourself think that there is no difference between the purist flight and the saved by the start button switch flight. Do you think that I realize that there is a convenience of having

a self launch, why heck yes, I have no problem with self launch, finding old guys like myself and my old Pawnee are like the flip phone, hardly can find one anymore.

So, what and how should the purist flight be scored differently than the MG flight? The purist flight should be given extra OLC points because of the void of the start button or the as I call it the beam me up Scotty button.
I hope that I have answered your questions regarding Purist flights vs MG flights. Take care and I will pray that your Solo engine continues to run. Old Bob, The Purist

Look at the OLC, and you'll the motor is rarely used. Most MG pilots are SOARING pilots,
and we really want to complete the flight without using the motor. Before you tell MG
pilots how differently we plan and fly, you should fly a season in a motorglider, or make
at 10-15 flights in a two seat MG with a good pilot. If the OLC scoring is what burns your
butt, take it up with the OLC, and stop disparaging the MG pilots. We didn't write the rules.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 5:33:06 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:53:56 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 4/30/2022 3:31 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 4:54:58 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

Eric, I understand this situation extremely well, been doing this gig for a long time and still having fun. My observation on motor gliders and sustainers is right on target, I do not have a problem flying my pure glider over areas where land out

is a possibility, I must make good decisions unlike the motor glider drivers. The motor glider segment is for convenience, and I have no problem with that. When my skills erode to the point where I do not feel confident in making a challenging purist
flight I will just hang it up and move on to something new and exciting, but until that time comes I will be a purist. Old Bob, The Purist

Most of us, including you and me, want to avoid the inconvenience of landing away from our
home airport. Motorglider owners have chosen a motor to provide the convenience of making
it home; you've chosen to soar very cautiously to provide the convenience of making it
home. It's not a bad thing, as it's what most of the towed glider pilots do to varying
extents, but it's not what I consider "challenging" flying, which inevitably involves
landing away a few times a year. After all, if you always make it home, you are likely
leaving a lot soaring "on the table", and could've gone faster, farther, or longer, or all
of those.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, please do not lose sleep over the Purist vs the MG ! I have not left a lot on the table during my years of glider flying, rather I still put down in strange places every now and then. I just understand that there is a huge difference between

the way I plan and conduct my flights vs the MG guys. Old Bob, The Purist

Perhaps I have misjudged what I see on the OLC. How many retrieves have you had in the
last two or three years? How does your planning and flying differ from the MG guys? My
planning and flying did not change much when I got a motorglider, for example.

By the way, "motorglider guys" do not all have the same goals, priorities, and skills:
some soar cautiously and very rarely use the motor inflight; others push hard, and use the
motor much more frequently.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, I have had retrieves during the past few years and yes I will have more in the future. Yes, us purist do plan our flights accordingly and different from the MG guys and gals, we cannot make as many mistakes and therefore must optimize every

opportunity. Simply stated and understood is the fact that we do not have that get home free pass hanging around our necks. What you and others have failed to acknowledge is the fact that purist flights are much more demanding and require mush better
planning and execution that motor glider flights, we simply do not get a second chance.

You asked the question, 'How does my flight planning differ from MG flights", simple reply is that I do not have a get me out of this jam button to make me look like a hero! I think that your flights and planning differed more than you realize when you

got a MG, I look at this guy in Florida that is flying some type of Pippencrap? and takes off from Boca and motors out for a while and then tries gliding only to start the motor back up to get home and scores his points on OLC and I just shake my head
and laugh! Even "The Bum", would laugh at that scenario.

what amuses me is the fact that many MG guys and probably including yourself think that there is no difference between the purist flight and the saved by the start button switch flight. Do you think that I realize that there is a convenience of having

a self launch, why heck yes, I have no problem with self launch, finding old guys like myself and my old Pawnee are like the flip phone, hardly can find one anymore.

So, what and how should the purist flight be scored differently than the MG flight? The purist flight should be given extra OLC points because of the void of the start button or the as I call it the beam me up Scotty button.
I hope that I have answered your questions regarding Purist flights vs MG flights. Take care and I will pray that your Solo engine continues to run. Old Bob, The Purist

What a bunch of crap. Your "purist" lands at an airport, calls you up, and you go retrieve him with your Pawnee. The only difference is a little extra time and cost. And if he lands in a field he calls you up and you come with a trailer, pulled by a
vehicle with an ENGINE! That IS IT! And you never responded to what I deem a REAL purist to be: a hill and a bungee cord - that is how the REAL purists did it way back when.

So, NO, you ARE NOT a purist, just a wannabe.

Tom

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 12:11:23 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 5:33:06 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:53:56 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 4/30/2022 3:31 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 4:54:58 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

Eric, I understand this situation extremely well, been doing this gig for a long time and still having fun. My observation on motor gliders and sustainers is right on target, I do not have a problem flying my pure glider over areas where land

out is a possibility, I must make good decisions unlike the motor glider drivers. The motor glider segment is for convenience, and I have no problem with that. When my skills erode to the point where I do not feel confident in making a challenging purist
flight I will just hang it up and move on to something new and exciting, but until that time comes I will be a purist. Old Bob, The Purist

Most of us, including you and me, want to avoid the inconvenience of landing away from our
home airport. Motorglider owners have chosen a motor to provide the convenience of making
it home; you've chosen to soar very cautiously to provide the convenience of making it
home. It's not a bad thing, as it's what most of the towed glider pilots do to varying
extents, but it's not what I consider "challenging" flying, which inevitably involves
landing away a few times a year. After all, if you always make it home, you are likely
leaving a lot soaring "on the table", and could've gone faster, farther, or longer, or all
of those.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, please do not lose sleep over the Purist vs the MG ! I have not left a lot on the table during my years of glider flying, rather I still put down in strange places every now and then. I just understand that there is a huge difference

between the way I plan and conduct my flights vs the MG guys. Old Bob, The Purist

Perhaps I have misjudged what I see on the OLC. How many retrieves have you had in the
last two or three years? How does your planning and flying differ from the MG guys? My
planning and flying did not change much when I got a motorglider, for example.

By the way, "motorglider guys" do not all have the same goals, priorities, and skills:
some soar cautiously and very rarely use the motor inflight; others push hard, and use the
motor much more frequently.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, I have had retrieves during the past few years and yes I will have more in the future. Yes, us purist do plan our flights accordingly and different from the MG guys and gals, we cannot make as many mistakes and therefore must optimize every

opportunity. Simply stated and understood is the fact that we do not have that get home free pass hanging around our necks. What you and others have failed to acknowledge is the fact that purist flights are much more demanding and require mush better
planning and execution that motor glider flights, we simply do not get a second chance.

You asked the question, 'How does my flight planning differ from MG flights", simple reply is that I do not have a get me out of this jam button to make me look like a hero! I think that your flights and planning differed more than you realize when

you got a MG, I look at this guy in Florida that is flying some type of Pippencrap? and takes off from Boca and motors out for a while and then tries gliding only to start the motor back up to get home and scores his points on OLC and I just shake my
head and laugh! Even "The Bum", would laugh at that scenario.

what amuses me is the fact that many MG guys and probably including yourself think that there is no difference between the purist flight and the saved by the start button switch flight. Do you think that I realize that there is a convenience of

having a self launch, why heck yes, I have no problem with self launch, finding old guys like myself and my old Pawnee are like the flip phone, hardly can find one anymore.

So, what and how should the purist flight be scored differently than the MG flight? The purist flight should be given extra OLC points because of the void of the start button or the as I call it the beam me up Scotty button.
I hope that I have answered your questions regarding Purist flights vs MG flights. Take care and I will pray that your Solo engine continues to run. Old Bob, The Purist

What a bunch of crap. Your "purist" lands at an airport, calls you up, and you go retrieve him with your Pawnee. The only difference is a little extra time and cost. And if he lands in a field he calls you up and you come with a trailer, pulled by a

vehicle with an ENGINE! That IS IT! And you never responded to what I deem a REAL purist to be: a hill and a bungee cord - that is how the REAL purists did it way back when.

So, NO, you ARE NOT a purist, just a wannabe.

Tom

Thomas, you should control your emotions, you are making the MG community look really bad. Your best friend, Old Bob, The Purist

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 9:01:04 AM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 12:11:23 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 5:33:06 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:53:56 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 4/30/2022 3:31 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 4:54:58 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

Eric, I understand this situation extremely well, been doing this gig for a long time and still having fun. My observation on motor gliders and sustainers is right on target, I do not have a problem flying my pure glider over areas where land

out is a possibility, I must make good decisions unlike the motor glider drivers. The motor glider segment is for convenience, and I have no problem with that. When my skills erode to the point where I do not feel confident in making a challenging purist
flight I will just hang it up and move on to something new and exciting, but until that time comes I will be a purist. Old Bob, The Purist

Most of us, including you and me, want to avoid the inconvenience of landing away from our
home airport. Motorglider owners have chosen a motor to provide the convenience of making
it home; you've chosen to soar very cautiously to provide the convenience of making it
home. It's not a bad thing, as it's what most of the towed glider pilots do to varying
extents, but it's not what I consider "challenging" flying, which inevitably involves
landing away a few times a year. After all, if you always make it home, you are likely
leaving a lot soaring "on the table", and could've gone faster, farther, or longer, or all
of those.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, please do not lose sleep over the Purist vs the MG ! I have not left a lot on the table during my years of glider flying, rather I still put down in strange places every now and then. I just understand that there is a huge difference

between the way I plan and conduct my flights vs the MG guys. Old Bob, The Purist

Perhaps I have misjudged what I see on the OLC. How many retrieves have you had in the
last two or three years? How does your planning and flying differ from the MG guys? My
planning and flying did not change much when I got a motorglider, for example.

By the way, "motorglider guys" do not all have the same goals, priorities, and skills:
some soar cautiously and very rarely use the motor inflight; others push hard, and use the
motor much more frequently.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, I have had retrieves during the past few years and yes I will have more in the future. Yes, us purist do plan our flights accordingly and different from the MG guys and gals, we cannot make as many mistakes and therefore must optimize every

opportunity. Simply stated and understood is the fact that we do not have that get home free pass hanging around our necks. What you and others have failed to acknowledge is the fact that purist flights are much more demanding and require mush better
planning and execution that motor glider flights, we simply do not get a second chance.

You asked the question, 'How does my flight planning differ from MG flights", simple reply is that I do not have a get me out of this jam button to make me look like a hero! I think that your flights and planning differed more than you realize when

you got a MG, I look at this guy in Florida that is flying some type of Pippencrap? and takes off from Boca and motors out for a while and then tries gliding only to start the motor back up to get home and scores his points on OLC and I just shake my
head and laugh! Even "The Bum", would laugh at that scenario.

what amuses me is the fact that many MG guys and probably including yourself think that there is no difference between the purist flight and the saved by the start button switch flight. Do you think that I realize that there is a convenience of

having a self launch, why heck yes, I have no problem with self launch, finding old guys like myself and my old Pawnee are like the flip phone, hardly can find one anymore.

So, what and how should the purist flight be scored differently than the MG flight? The purist flight should be given extra OLC points because of the void of the start button or the as I call it the beam me up Scotty button.
I hope that I have answered your questions regarding Purist flights vs MG flights. Take care and I will pray that your Solo engine continues to run. Old Bob, The Purist

What a bunch of crap. Your "purist" lands at an airport, calls you up, and you go retrieve him with your Pawnee. The only difference is a little extra time and cost. And if he lands in a field he calls you up and you come with a trailer, pulled by a

vehicle with an ENGINE! That IS IT! And you never responded to what I deem a REAL purist to be: a hill and a bungee cord - that is how the REAL purists did it way back when.

So, NO, you ARE NOT a purist, just a wannabe.

Tom

Thomas, you should control your emotions, you are making the MG community look really bad. Your best friend, Old Bob, The Purist

Dale Carnegie said: “The only way to win an argument is to avoid it.” So, I'm going soaring and not worrying about what you think of my choice of sailplanes. I know what I think, and that is the only important consideration for me.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 9:27:23 AM UTC-4, campbe...@gmail.com wrote:

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 9:01:04 AM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 12:11:23 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 5:33:06 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:53:56 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 4/30/2022 3:31 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 4:54:58 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

Eric, I understand this situation extremely well, been doing this gig for a long time and still having fun. My observation on motor gliders and sustainers is right on target, I do not have a problem flying my pure glider over areas where

land out is a possibility, I must make good decisions unlike the motor glider drivers. The motor glider segment is for convenience, and I have no problem with that. When my skills erode to the point where I do not feel confident in making a challenging
purist flight I will just hang it up and move on to something new and exciting, but until that time comes I will be a purist. Old Bob, The Purist

Most of us, including you and me, want to avoid the inconvenience of landing away from our
home airport. Motorglider owners have chosen a motor to provide the convenience of making
it home; you've chosen to soar very cautiously to provide the convenience of making it
home. It's not a bad thing, as it's what most of the towed glider pilots do to varying
extents, but it's not what I consider "challenging" flying, which inevitably involves
landing away a few times a year. After all, if you always make it home, you are likely
leaving a lot soaring "on the table", and could've gone faster, farther, or longer, or all
of those.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, please do not lose sleep over the Purist vs the MG ! I have not left a lot on the table during my years of glider flying, rather I still put down in strange places every now and then. I just understand that there is a huge difference

between the way I plan and conduct my flights vs the MG guys. Old Bob, The Purist

Perhaps I have misjudged what I see on the OLC. How many retrieves have you had in the
last two or three years? How does your planning and flying differ from the MG guys? My
planning and flying did not change much when I got a motorglider, for example.

By the way, "motorglider guys" do not all have the same goals, priorities, and skills:
some soar cautiously and very rarely use the motor inflight; others push hard, and use the
motor much more frequently.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, I have had retrieves during the past few years and yes I will have more in the future. Yes, us purist do plan our flights accordingly and different from the MG guys and gals, we cannot make as many mistakes and therefore must optimize every

opportunity. Simply stated and understood is the fact that we do not have that get home free pass hanging around our necks. What you and others have failed to acknowledge is the fact that purist flights are much more demanding and require mush better
planning and execution that motor glider flights, we simply do not get a second chance.

You asked the question, 'How does my flight planning differ from MG flights", simple reply is that I do not have a get me out of this jam button to make me look like a hero! I think that your flights and planning differed more than you realize

when you got a MG, I look at this guy in Florida that is flying some type of Pippencrap? and takes off from Boca and motors out for a while and then tries gliding only to start the motor back up to get home and scores his points on OLC and I just shake
my head and laugh! Even "The Bum", would laugh at that scenario.

what amuses me is the fact that many MG guys and probably including yourself think that there is no difference between the purist flight and the saved by the start button switch flight. Do you think that I realize that there is a convenience of

having a self launch, why heck yes, I have no problem with self launch, finding old guys like myself and my old Pawnee are like the flip phone, hardly can find one anymore.

So, what and how should the purist flight be scored differently than the MG flight? The purist flight should be given extra OLC points because of the void of the start button or the as I call it the beam me up Scotty button.
I hope that I have answered your questions regarding Purist flights vs MG flights. Take care and I will pray that your Solo engine continues to run. Old Bob, The Purist

What a bunch of crap. Your "purist" lands at an airport, calls you up, and you go retrieve him with your Pawnee. The only difference is a little extra time and cost. And if he lands in a field he calls you up and you come with a trailer, pulled by

a vehicle with an ENGINE! That IS IT! And you never responded to what I deem a REAL purist to be: a hill and a bungee cord - that is how the REAL purists did it way back when.

So, NO, you ARE NOT a purist, just a wannabe.

Tom

Thomas, you should control your emotions, you are making the MG community look really bad. Your best friend, Old Bob, The Purist

You claim using a bungee to launch is pure? You are imposing on 4, 6 or 8 persons to get you into
the air; the real pure method is gravity launch of which there is a Utube video, at a club in central Europe.
Only a hill ,a paved track and a wing runner.
A close second , was an ex CUGC owner of a hotel in the Welsh mountains, with an Olympia, a bungee,
and a Land Rover, wing stands and a tail hook release. You get the idea.
JMF

Dale Carnegie said: “The only way to win an argument is to avoid it.” So, I'm going soaring and not worrying about what you think of my choice of sailplanes. I know what I think, and that is the only important consideration for me.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 6:01:04 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 12:11:23 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 5:33:06 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:53:56 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 4/30/2022 3:31 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 4:54:58 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

Eric, I understand this situation extremely well, been doing this gig for a long time and still having fun. My observation on motor gliders and sustainers is right on target, I do not have a problem flying my pure glider over areas where land

out is a possibility, I must make good decisions unlike the motor glider drivers. The motor glider segment is for convenience, and I have no problem with that. When my skills erode to the point where I do not feel confident in making a challenging purist
flight I will just hang it up and move on to something new and exciting, but until that time comes I will be a purist. Old Bob, The Purist

Most of us, including you and me, want to avoid the inconvenience of landing away from our
home airport. Motorglider owners have chosen a motor to provide the convenience of making
it home; you've chosen to soar very cautiously to provide the convenience of making it
home. It's not a bad thing, as it's what most of the towed glider pilots do to varying
extents, but it's not what I consider "challenging" flying, which inevitably involves
landing away a few times a year. After all, if you always make it home, you are likely
leaving a lot soaring "on the table", and could've gone faster, farther, or longer, or all
of those.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, please do not lose sleep over the Purist vs the MG ! I have not left a lot on the table during my years of glider flying, rather I still put down in strange places every now and then. I just understand that there is a huge difference

between the way I plan and conduct my flights vs the MG guys. Old Bob, The Purist

Perhaps I have misjudged what I see on the OLC. How many retrieves have you had in the
last two or three years? How does your planning and flying differ from the MG guys? My
planning and flying did not change much when I got a motorglider, for example.

By the way, "motorglider guys" do not all have the same goals, priorities, and skills:
some soar cautiously and very rarely use the motor inflight; others push hard, and use the
motor much more frequently.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, I have had retrieves during the past few years and yes I will have more in the future. Yes, us purist do plan our flights accordingly and different from the MG guys and gals, we cannot make as many mistakes and therefore must optimize every

opportunity. Simply stated and understood is the fact that we do not have that get home free pass hanging around our necks. What you and others have failed to acknowledge is the fact that purist flights are much more demanding and require mush better
planning and execution that motor glider flights, we simply do not get a second chance.

You asked the question, 'How does my flight planning differ from MG flights", simple reply is that I do not have a get me out of this jam button to make me look like a hero! I think that your flights and planning differed more than you realize when

you got a MG, I look at this guy in Florida that is flying some type of Pippencrap? and takes off from Boca and motors out for a while and then tries gliding only to start the motor back up to get home and scores his points on OLC and I just shake my
head and laugh! Even "The Bum", would laugh at that scenario.

what amuses me is the fact that many MG guys and probably including yourself think that there is no difference between the purist flight and the saved by the start button switch flight. Do you think that I realize that there is a convenience of

having a self launch, why heck yes, I have no problem with self launch, finding old guys like myself and my old Pawnee are like the flip phone, hardly can find one anymore.

So, what and how should the purist flight be scored differently than the MG flight? The purist flight should be given extra OLC points because of the void of the start button or the as I call it the beam me up Scotty button.
I hope that I have answered your questions regarding Purist flights vs MG flights. Take care and I will pray that your Solo engine continues to run. Old Bob, The Purist

What a bunch of crap. Your "purist" lands at an airport, calls you up, and you go retrieve him with your Pawnee. The only difference is a little extra time and cost. And if he lands in a field he calls you up and you come with a trailer, pulled by a

vehicle with an ENGINE! That IS IT! And you never responded to what I deem a REAL purist to be: a hill and a bungee cord - that is how the REAL purists did it way back when.

So, NO, you ARE NOT a purist, just a wannabe.

Tom

Thomas, you should control your emotions, you are making the MG community look really bad. Your best friend, Old Bob, The Purist

Hey Bob,

I see that you have no meaningful reply to my accurate observations, just more hubris.

Tom

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 11:24:03 AM UTC-7, john firth wrote:

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 9:27:23 AM UTC-4, campbe...@gmail.com wrote:

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 9:01:04 AM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 12:11:23 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 5:33:06 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:53:56 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 4/30/2022 3:31 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 4:54:58 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

Eric, I understand this situation extremely well, been doing this gig for a long time and still having fun. My observation on motor gliders and sustainers is right on target, I do not have a problem flying my pure glider over areas where

land out is a possibility, I must make good decisions unlike the motor glider drivers. The motor glider segment is for convenience, and I have no problem with that. When my skills erode to the point where I do not feel confident in making a challenging
purist flight I will just hang it up and move on to something new and exciting, but until that time comes I will be a purist. Old Bob, The Purist

Most of us, including you and me, want to avoid the inconvenience of landing away from our
home airport. Motorglider owners have chosen a motor to provide the convenience of making
it home; you've chosen to soar very cautiously to provide the convenience of making it
home. It's not a bad thing, as it's what most of the towed glider pilots do to varying
extents, but it's not what I consider "challenging" flying, which inevitably involves
landing away a few times a year. After all, if you always make it home, you are likely
leaving a lot soaring "on the table", and could've gone faster, farther, or longer, or all
of those.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, please do not lose sleep over the Purist vs the MG ! I have not left a lot on the table during my years of glider flying, rather I still put down in strange places every now and then. I just understand that there is a huge difference

between the way I plan and conduct my flights vs the MG guys. Old Bob, The Purist

Perhaps I have misjudged what I see on the OLC. How many retrieves have you had in the
last two or three years? How does your planning and flying differ from the MG guys? My
planning and flying did not change much when I got a motorglider, for example.

By the way, "motorglider guys" do not all have the same goals, priorities, and skills:
some soar cautiously and very rarely use the motor inflight; others push hard, and use the
motor much more frequently.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, I have had retrieves during the past few years and yes I will have more in the future. Yes, us purist do plan our flights accordingly and different from the MG guys and gals, we cannot make as many mistakes and therefore must optimize

every opportunity. Simply stated and understood is the fact that we do not have that get home free pass hanging around our necks. What you and others have failed to acknowledge is the fact that purist flights are much more demanding and require mush
better planning and execution that motor glider flights, we simply do not get a second chance.

You asked the question, 'How does my flight planning differ from MG flights", simple reply is that I do not have a get me out of this jam button to make me look like a hero! I think that your flights and planning differed more than you realize

when you got a MG, I look at this guy in Florida that is flying some type of Pippencrap? and takes off from Boca and motors out for a while and then tries gliding only to start the motor back up to get home and scores his points on OLC and I just shake
my head and laugh! Even "The Bum", would laugh at that scenario.

what amuses me is the fact that many MG guys and probably including yourself think that there is no difference between the purist flight and the saved by the start button switch flight. Do you think that I realize that there is a convenience of

having a self launch, why heck yes, I have no problem with self launch, finding old guys like myself and my old Pawnee are like the flip phone, hardly can find one anymore.

So, what and how should the purist flight be scored differently than the MG flight? The purist flight should be given extra OLC points because of the void of the start button or the as I call it the beam me up Scotty button.
I hope that I have answered your questions regarding Purist flights vs MG flights. Take care and I will pray that your Solo engine continues to run. Old Bob, The Purist

What a bunch of crap. Your "purist" lands at an airport, calls you up, and you go retrieve him with your Pawnee. The only difference is a little extra time and cost. And if he lands in a field he calls you up and you come with a trailer, pulled

by a vehicle with an ENGINE! That IS IT! And you never responded to what I deem a REAL purist to be: a hill and a bungee cord - that is how the REAL purists did it way back when.

So, NO, you ARE NOT a purist, just a wannabe.

Tom

Thomas, you should control your emotions, you are making the MG community look really bad. Your best friend, Old Bob, The Purist

You claim using a bungee to launch is pure? You are imposing on 4, 6 or 8 persons to get you into
the air; the real pure method is gravity launch of which there is a Utube video, at a club in central Europe.
Only a hill ,a paved track and a wing runner.
A close second , was an ex CUGC owner of a hotel in the Welsh mountains, with an Olympia, a bungee,
and a Land Rover, wing stands and a tail hook release. You get the idea.
JMF

Dale Carnegie said: “The only way to win an argument is to avoid it.” So, I'm going soaring and not worrying about what you think of my choice of sailplanes. I know what I think, and that is the only important consideration for me.

Damn right - it doesn't using any engine whatsoever, just gravity and some human power. I guess you could substitute a horse if you wanted my horsepower.

Tom

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Bob, I have a solution. A motorglider which can only use the engine to launch. Once the engine is shut down, it can no longer restarted until landing. What do you think? I guess the motorgliders can still landout in an airstrip and relaunch, so should
we tweak it so the engine can not be restarted again the same day?

Ramy (just trying to help)

P.S. I love Bob’s entertainment. Some of us are taking ourselves way too seriously.

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 5:33:06 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:53:56 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 4/30/2022 3:31 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 4:54:58 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

Eric, I understand this situation extremely well, been doing this gig for a long time and still having fun. My observation on motor gliders and sustainers is right on target, I do not have a problem flying my pure glider over areas where land out

is a possibility, I must make good decisions unlike the motor glider drivers. The motor glider segment is for convenience, and I have no problem with that. When my skills erode to the point where I do not feel confident in making a challenging purist
flight I will just hang it up and move on to something new and exciting, but until that time comes I will be a purist. Old Bob, The Purist

Most of us, including you and me, want to avoid the inconvenience of landing away from our
home airport. Motorglider owners have chosen a motor to provide the convenience of making
it home; you've chosen to soar very cautiously to provide the convenience of making it
home. It's not a bad thing, as it's what most of the towed glider pilots do to varying
extents, but it's not what I consider "challenging" flying, which inevitably involves
landing away a few times a year. After all, if you always make it home, you are likely
leaving a lot soaring "on the table", and could've gone faster, farther, or longer, or all
of those.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, please do not lose sleep over the Purist vs the MG ! I have not left a lot on the table during my years of glider flying, rather I still put down in strange places every now and then. I just understand that there is a huge difference between

the way I plan and conduct my flights vs the MG guys. Old Bob, The Purist

Perhaps I have misjudged what I see on the OLC. How many retrieves have you had in the
last two or three years? How does your planning and flying differ from the MG guys? My
planning and flying did not change much when I got a motorglider, for example.

By the way, "motorglider guys" do not all have the same goals, priorities, and skills:
some soar cautiously and very rarely use the motor inflight; others push hard, and use the
motor much more frequently.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, I have had retrieves during the past few years and yes I will have more in the future. Yes, us purist do plan our flights accordingly and different from the MG guys and gals, we cannot make as many mistakes and therefore must optimize every

opportunity. Simply stated and understood is the fact that we do not have that get home free pass hanging around our necks. What you and others have failed to acknowledge is the fact that purist flights are much more demanding and require mush better
planning and execution that motor glider flights, we simply do not get a second chance.

You asked the question, 'How does my flight planning differ from MG flights", simple reply is that I do not have a get me out of this jam button to make me look like a hero! I think that your flights and planning differed more than you realize when you

got a MG, I look at this guy in Florida that is flying some type of Pippencrap? and takes off from Boca and motors out for a while and then tries gliding only to start the motor back up to get home and scores his points on OLC and I just shake my head
and laugh! Even "The Bum", would laugh at that scenario.

what amuses me is the fact that many MG guys and probably including yourself think that there is no difference between the purist flight and the saved by the start button switch flight. Do you think that I realize that there is a convenience of having

a self launch, why heck yes, I have no problem with self launch, finding old guys like myself and my old Pawnee are like the flip phone, hardly can find one anymore.

So, what and how should the purist flight be scored differently than the MG flight? The purist flight should be given extra OLC points because of the void of the start button or the as I call it the beam me up Scotty button.
I hope that I have answered your questions regarding Purist flights vs MG flights. Take care and I will pray that your Solo engine continues to run. Old Bob, The Purist

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 8:17:09 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:

Bob, I have a solution. A motorglider which can only use the engine to launch. Once the engine is shut down, it can no longer restarted until landing. What do you think? I guess the motorgliders can still landout in an airstrip and relaunch, so should

we tweak it so the engine can not be restarted again the same day?

Ramy (just trying to help)

P.S. I love Bob’s entertainment. Some of us are taking ourselves way too seriously.
On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 5:33:06 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:53:56 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 4/30/2022 3:31 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 4:54:58 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

Eric, I understand this situation extremely well, been doing this gig for a long time and still having fun. My observation on motor gliders and sustainers is right on target, I do not have a problem flying my pure glider over areas where land

out is a possibility, I must make good decisions unlike the motor glider drivers. The motor glider segment is for convenience, and I have no problem with that. When my skills erode to the point where I do not feel confident in making a challenging purist
flight I will just hang it up and move on to something new and exciting, but until that time comes I will be a purist. Old Bob, The Purist

Most of us, including you and me, want to avoid the inconvenience of landing away from our
home airport. Motorglider owners have chosen a motor to provide the convenience of making
it home; you've chosen to soar very cautiously to provide the convenience of making it
home. It's not a bad thing, as it's what most of the towed glider pilots do to varying
extents, but it's not what I consider "challenging" flying, which inevitably involves
landing away a few times a year. After all, if you always make it home, you are likely
leaving a lot soaring "on the table", and could've gone faster, farther, or longer, or all
of those.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, please do not lose sleep over the Purist vs the MG ! I have not left a lot on the table during my years of glider flying, rather I still put down in strange places every now and then. I just understand that there is a huge difference

between the way I plan and conduct my flights vs the MG guys. Old Bob, The Purist

Perhaps I have misjudged what I see on the OLC. How many retrieves have you had in the
last two or three years? How does your planning and flying differ from the MG guys? My
planning and flying did not change much when I got a motorglider, for example.

By the way, "motorglider guys" do not all have the same goals, priorities, and skills:
some soar cautiously and very rarely use the motor inflight; others push hard, and use the
motor much more frequently.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, I have had retrieves during the past few years and yes I will have more in the future. Yes, us purist do plan our flights accordingly and different from the MG guys and gals, we cannot make as many mistakes and therefore must optimize every

opportunity. Simply stated and understood is the fact that we do not have that get home free pass hanging around our necks. What you and others have failed to acknowledge is the fact that purist flights are much more demanding and require mush better
planning and execution that motor glider flights, we simply do not get a second chance.

You asked the question, 'How does my flight planning differ from MG flights", simple reply is that I do not have a get me out of this jam button to make me look like a hero! I think that your flights and planning differed more than you realize when

you got a MG, I look at this guy in Florida that is flying some type of Pippencrap? and takes off from Boca and motors out for a while and then tries gliding only to start the motor back up to get home and scores his points on OLC and I just shake my
head and laugh! Even "The Bum", would laugh at that scenario.

what amuses me is the fact that many MG guys and probably including yourself think that there is no difference between the purist flight and the saved by the start button switch flight. Do you think that I realize that there is a convenience of

having a self launch, why heck yes, I have no problem with self launch, finding old guys like myself and my old Pawnee are like the flip phone, hardly can find one anymore.

So, what and how should the purist flight be scored differently than the MG flight? The purist flight should be given extra OLC points because of the void of the start button or the as I call it the beam me up Scotty button.
I hope that I have answered your questions regarding Purist flights vs MG flights. Take care and I will pray that your Solo engine continues to run. Old Bob, The Purist

Hey Ramy, no need to ask Old Bob - I can tell you that he HATES any kind of engine in a glider. Why? I have absolutely no idea other than he sees it as competition for his towplane.

Tom

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

One tow a day! NO relights! Well, OK, you can retrieve by aerotow, but you have to keep
the rope until you are back in the pattern. Motorgliders can use the motor to self-retrieve, but have to wait at least an hour before using the motor, and must motor
all the way back. Or trailer. No restrictions on trailer retrieves.

Now, a towed pilot with a lot of money, could pay a crew to follow him around with the
trailer for an "instant retrieve" capability. Or, or, pay for a towplane to follow him
around in the air a discreet 5 miles behind, ready to do an aeroretrieve a few minutes
after the soaring pilot lands at an airport.

On 5/1/2022 8:17 PM, Ramy wrote:

Bob, I have a solution. A motorglider which can only use the engine to launch. Once the engine is shut down, it can no longer restarted until landing. What do you think? I guess the motorgliders can still landout in an airstrip and relaunch, so should

we tweak it so the engine can not be restarted again the same day?

Ramy (just trying to help)

P.S. I love Bob’s entertainment. Some of us are taking ourselves way too seriously.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 11:17:09 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:

Bob, I have a solution. A motorglider which can only use the engine to launch. Once the engine is shut down, it can no longer restarted until landing. What do you think? I guess the motorgliders can still landout in an airstrip and relaunch, so should

we tweak it so the engine can not be restarted again the same day?

Ramy (just trying to help)
Ramy,I would love to have that kill switch on Motorgliders, one and done! The engine electronic ignition could be programmed to shut down after the initial launch and not start again until the landing sensor has been activated after the landing, what a

great idea. What about the idea of if you start your sustainer you get no points on OLC for the day, and if you have a sustainer or self launch you are actually penalized for your flight.
On another note, I have stated in the past that I do understand the self launch aspect of this motorglider segment, who knows, maybe one day Old Bob may have a self launch, but not with one of the Solo engines that seems to have a lifespan of less than
200 hours, what a bargain! What about a carbon tax on motorgliders, make these MG pilots pay for pollution, a special environmental fund.
Yep Ramy, some of these guys take this stuff way too serious, I seem to bring out the best in these motorglider pilots, my mailbox will be full of hate mail once again. Old Bob, The Purist

P.S. I love Bob’s entertainment. Some of us are taking ourselves way too seriously.
On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 5:33:06 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:53:56 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 4/30/2022 3:31 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 4:54:58 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

Eric, I understand this situation extremely well, been doing this gig for a long time and still having fun. My observation on motor gliders and sustainers is right on target, I do not have a problem flying my pure glider over areas where land

out is a possibility, I must make good decisions unlike the motor glider drivers. The motor glider segment is for convenience, and I have no problem with that. When my skills erode to the point where I do not feel confident in making a challenging purist
flight I will just hang it up and move on to something new and exciting, but until that time comes I will be a purist. Old Bob, The Purist

Most of us, including you and me, want to avoid the inconvenience of landing away from our
home airport. Motorglider owners have chosen a motor to provide the convenience of making
it home; you've chosen to soar very cautiously to provide the convenience of making it
home. It's not a bad thing, as it's what most of the towed glider pilots do to varying
extents, but it's not what I consider "challenging" flying, which inevitably involves
landing away a few times a year. After all, if you always make it home, you are likely
leaving a lot soaring "on the table", and could've gone faster, farther, or longer, or all
of those.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, please do not lose sleep over the Purist vs the MG ! I have not left a lot on the table during my years of glider flying, rather I still put down in strange places every now and then. I just understand that there is a huge difference

between the way I plan and conduct my flights vs the MG guys. Old Bob, The Purist

Perhaps I have misjudged what I see on the OLC. How many retrieves have you had in the
last two or three years? How does your planning and flying differ from the MG guys? My
planning and flying did not change much when I got a motorglider, for example.

By the way, "motorglider guys" do not all have the same goals, priorities, and skills:
some soar cautiously and very rarely use the motor inflight; others push hard, and use the
motor much more frequently.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, I have had retrieves during the past few years and yes I will have more in the future. Yes, us purist do plan our flights accordingly and different from the MG guys and gals, we cannot make as many mistakes and therefore must optimize every

opportunity. Simply stated and understood is the fact that we do not have that get home free pass hanging around our necks. What you and others have failed to acknowledge is the fact that purist flights are much more demanding and require mush better
planning and execution that motor glider flights, we simply do not get a second chance.

You asked the question, 'How does my flight planning differ from MG flights", simple reply is that I do not have a get me out of this jam button to make me look like a hero! I think that your flights and planning differed more than you realize when

you got a MG, I look at this guy in Florida that is flying some type of Pippencrap? and takes off from Boca and motors out for a while and then tries gliding only to start the motor back up to get home and scores his points on OLC and I just shake my
head and laugh! Even "The Bum", would laugh at that scenario.

what amuses me is the fact that many MG guys and probably including yourself think that there is no difference between the purist flight and the saved by the start button switch flight. Do you think that I realize that there is a convenience of

having a self launch, why heck yes, I have no problem with self launch, finding old guys like myself and my old Pawnee are like the flip phone, hardly can find one anymore.

So, what and how should the purist flight be scored differently than the MG flight? The purist flight should be given extra OLC points because of the void of the start button or the as I call it the beam me up Scotty button.
I hope that I have answered your questions regarding Purist flights vs MG flights. Take care and I will pray that your Solo engine continues to run. Old Bob, The Purist

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 5/2/2022 6:36 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:

A few years ago, that restriction was removed, and the motorglider class was frozen - more record applications accepted. I don't recall the reasons for the changes.

That should be " - NO more record applications accepted".


--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 5/1/2022 11:05 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 11:17:09 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:

Bob, I have a solution. A motorglider which can only use the engine to launch. Once the engine is shut down, it can no longer restarted until landing. What do you think? I guess the motorgliders can still landout in an airstrip and relaunch, so should

we tweak it so the engine can not be restarted again the same day?

Ramy (just trying to help)

Ramy,I would love to have that kill switch on Motorgliders, one and done! The engine electronic ignition could be programmed to shut down after the initial launch and not start again until the landing sensor has been activated after the landing, what a

great idea. What about the idea of if you start your sustainer you get no points on OLC for the day, and if you have a sustainer or self launch you are actually penalized for your flight.

In the olden days, motorgliders were not allowed apply for most SSA state records unless
the motor was disabled after the launch. There was a motorglider class without that
restriction. A few years ago, that restriction was removed, and the motorglider class was
frozen - more record applications accepted. I don't recall the reasons for the changes.

A motorglider does make it more convenient to pursue records, but so do some other things:
money to buy the best glider, no job commitment so you can fly anytime, and an engaging
personality to attract a crew. and a determination to record seeking. Anyone of those is
at least as valuable as the convenience of a motorglider when perusing state records.

On another note, I have stated in the past that I do understand the self launch aspect of this motorglider segment, who knows, maybe one day Old Bob may have a self launch, but not with one of the Solo engines that seems to have a lifespan of less than

200 hours, what a bargain! What about a carbon tax on motorgliders, make these MG pilots pay for pollution, a special environmental fund.

200 engine hours is a very long time for a motorglider. With typical 5-10 minute taxi and
launch times, that's 1200-2400 flights. It took me 26 years to put 200 hours on my ASH26E
engine (4000+ flight hours). And, it's bizarre to talk of a carbon tax for motorgliders,
since towplanes use about 4 times the fuel for the same launch.

Good News! There is a good solution both the engine life and carbon issues: electric
self-launchers! But beware the electrophobes (you know who they are)...

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 9:50:01 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 5/2/2022 6:36 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:

A few years ago, that restriction was removed, and the motorglider class was
frozen - more record applications accepted. I don't recall the reasons for the changes.

That should be " - NO more record applications accepted".
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, you are making progress, not only does the motorglider make it more convenient to make certain flights and they do not have to be state records, but flights that require the purist to take a different approach to completing a goal flight or record
flights, or even an enjoyable weekend flight compared to purist flight. As far as the restrictions I do not think the restrictions are necessary, but I would like to see a separate motorglider class for scoring purposes. You must admit that a bit higher
wing loading makes a difference and is seldom a negative factor. I made reference in the initial start of this thread that the pure glider pilot plans differently, most likely flies differently and therefore making the purist flight a higher risk factor
vs the motorglider. Last week three flights were made on the 26th here in Florida and two of the flights were completed with motorgliders, the other a purist flight, you tell me which one of those flights had the higher risk factor, a higher failure
factor, a greater land out factor, and a different approach toward accomplishing the flight? I will say the same about the flight that Evan had last week up on the ridge, or the great flights that Ramy and many others have in pure gliders vs motorgliders.
This is justification for a different scoring class. Old Bob, The Purist

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Jeez... I hate to take the other side, Bob, but... If you're gonna be
like Al Gore and talk about carbon, then what about your Pawnee? IIRC
from my towing days, a 235 hp Pawnee burns, what, 16 gph at takeoff? My
Stemme burns 5 or 6 during takeoff and climb and, if I want to cruise
6-700 miles to find better lift, it burns about 3.2 gph. AND it burns
car gas.

Dan
5J

On 5/2/22 00:05, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 11:17:09 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:

Bob, I have a solution. A motorglider which can only use the engine to launch. Once the engine is shut down, it can no longer restarted until landing. What do you think? I guess the motorgliders can still landout in an airstrip and relaunch, so should

we tweak it so the engine can not be restarted again the same day?

Ramy (just trying to help)
Ramy,I would love to have that kill switch on Motorgliders, one and done! The engine electronic ignition could be programmed to shut down after the initial launch and not start again until the landing sensor has been activated after the landing, what

a great idea. What about the idea of if you start your sustainer you get no points on OLC for the day, and if you have a sustainer or self launch you are actually penalized for your flight.

On another note, I have stated in the past that I do understand the self launch aspect of this motorglider segment, who knows, maybe one day Old Bob may have a self launch, but not with one of the Solo engines that seems to have a lifespan of less than

200 hours, what a bargain! What about a carbon tax on motorgliders, make these MG pilots pay for pollution, a special environmental fund.

Yep Ramy, some of these guys take this stuff way too serious, I seem to bring out the best in these motorglider pilots, my mailbox will be full of hate mail once again. Old Bob, The Purist

P.S. I love Bob’s entertainment. Some of us are taking ourselves way too seriously.
On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 5:33:06 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote: >>> On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:53:56 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 4/30/2022 3:31 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 4:54:58 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote: >>>>

Eric, I understand this situation extremely well, been doing this gig for a long time and still having fun. My observation on motor gliders and sustainers is right on target, I do not have a problem flying my pure glider over areas where land out

is a possibility, I must make good decisions unlike the motor glider drivers. The motor glider segment is for convenience, and I have no problem with that. When my skills erode to the point where I do not feel confident in making a challenging purist
flight I will just hang it up and move on to something new and exciting, but until that time comes I will be a purist. Old Bob, The Purist

Most of us, including you and me, want to avoid the inconvenience of landing away from our
home airport. Motorglider owners have chosen a motor to provide the convenience of making
it home; you've chosen to soar very cautiously to provide the convenience of making it
home. It's not a bad thing, as it's what most of the towed glider pilots do to varying
extents, but it's not what I consider "challenging" flying, which inevitably involves
landing away a few times a year. After all, if you always make it home, you are likely
leaving a lot soaring "on the table", and could've gone faster, farther, or longer, or all
of those.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, please do not lose sleep over the Purist vs the MG ! I have not left a lot on the table during my years of glider flying, rather I still put down in strange places every now and then. I just understand that there is a huge difference between

the way I plan and conduct my flights vs the MG guys. Old Bob, The Purist

Perhaps I have misjudged what I see on the OLC. How many retrieves have you had in the
last two or three years? How does your planning and flying differ from the MG guys? My
planning and flying did not change much when I got a motorglider, for example.

By the way, "motorglider guys" do not all have the same goals, priorities, and skills:
some soar cautiously and very rarely use the motor inflight; others push hard, and use the
motor much more frequently.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, I have had retrieves during the past few years and yes I will have more in the future. Yes, us purist do plan our flights accordingly and different from the MG guys and gals, we cannot make as many mistakes and therefore must optimize every

opportunity. Simply stated and understood is the fact that we do not have that get home free pass hanging around our necks. What you and others have failed to acknowledge is the fact that purist flights are much more demanding and require mush better
planning and execution that motor glider flights, we simply do not get a second chance.

You asked the question, 'How does my flight planning differ from MG flights", simple reply is that I do not have a get me out of this jam button to make me look like a hero! I think that your flights and planning differed more than you realize when

you got a MG, I look at this guy in Florida that is flying some type of Pippencrap? and takes off from Boca and motors out for a while and then tries gliding only to start the motor back up to get home and scores his points on OLC and I just shake my
head and laugh! Even "The Bum", would laugh at that scenario.

what amuses me is the fact that many MG guys and probably including yourself think that there is no difference between the purist flight and the saved by the start button switch flight. Do you think that I realize that there is a convenience of

having a self launch, why heck yes, I have no problem with self launch, finding old guys like myself and my old Pawnee are like the flip phone, hardly can find one anymore.

So, what and how should the purist flight be scored differently than the MG flight? The purist flight should be given extra OLC points because of the void of the start button or the as I call it the beam me up Scotty button.
I hope that I have answered your questions regarding Purist flights vs MG flights. Take care and I will pray that your Solo engine continues to run. Old Bob, The Purist

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Where did that electricity come from, Eric? Coal burning, most likely,
or oil fired turbines. Just because you didn't burn the coal or oil
does not make your motor "emissions free".

I wish all the electro-geeks would acknowledge that little tidbit rather
than smugly stating that they aren't polluting the atmosphere. Huh... Considering conversion losses electric vehicles of any sort probably
contribute more pollution than gas guzzlers.

Dan
5J

On 5/2/22 07:36, Eric Greenwell wrote:

Good News! There is a good solution both the engine life and carbon
issues: electric self-launchers! But beware the electrophobes (you know
who they are)...

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 5/2/22 10:34, Dan Marotta wrote:

Where did that electricity come from, Eric?  Coal burning, most likely,
or oil fired turbines.  Just because you didn't burn the coal or oil
does not make your motor "emissions free".

I wish all the electro-geeks would acknowledge that little tidbit rather
than smugly stating that they aren't polluting the atmosphere.  Huh... Considering conversion losses electric vehicles of any sort probably contribute more pollution than gas guzzlers.

Aw, c'mon, Dan! Let's not insert killjoy-realities to an otherwise mostly-100%-opinionatory thread!!! Even if it *is* "something that
'obviously' goes without saying..."

And since we're enjoying a mid-spring snowstormlet outside as I type,
howziss for thread hijacking and pot-stirring? (And for those intolerant killjoys out there in RAS-land, please note a quick skim of the
article's comments will reveal *gliding* is mentioned - no, really!)

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/05/01/electric-bus-catches-fire-after-battery-explosion/

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Where it comes from depends very much on where you are. In the Pacific NW, where I live in
Washington State, it's about 80% from dams, windmills, and solar panels; some areas near
the East coast, it's probably mostly oil and coal.

The conversion efficiency for electric motors run by lithium batteries is very high, over
90%. Compare that to a gasoline fueled engine, which converts about 30% of the energy in
gasoline to power. So, it's almost always less pollution to change the oil, coal, and
natural gas to electricity at an utility, and use the electricity to run electric vehicles.

On 5/2/2022 9:34 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:

Where did that electricity come from, Eric?  Coal burning, most likely, or oil fired
turbines.  Just because you didn't burn the coal or oil does not make your motor
"emissions free".

I wish all the electro-geeks would acknowledge that little tidbit rather than smugly
stating that they aren't polluting the atmosphere.  Huh... Considering conversion losses
electric vehicles of any sort probably contribute more pollution than gas guzzlers.

Dan
5J

On 5/2/22 07:36, Eric Greenwell wrote:

Good News! There is a good solution both the engine life and carbon issues: electric
self-launchers! But beware the electrophobes (you know who they are)...

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Will this never end....? :-P

Same stuff that's been argued over and over for many years here on RAS.

I'm worried about the carbon footprint required to keep this endless discussion going (not!!! ;-) )

I do wonder what glove Bob uses when he stirs the proverbial pot of dung. Those must be some highly worn in crap stirring sticks.....

Haha, oh well keep it going, entertainment is entertainment....

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 5/2/2022 7:50 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 9:50:01 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 5/2/2022 6:36 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:

A few years ago, that restriction was removed, and the motorglider class was
frozen - more record applications accepted. I don't recall the reasons for the changes.

That should be " - NO more record applications accepted".
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, you are making progress, not only does the motorglider make it more convenient to make certain flights and they do not have to be state records, but flights that require the purist to take a different approach to completing a goal flight or

record flights, or even an enjoyable weekend flight compared to purist flight.

You missed the point: there are several things that make soaring more convenient. You know
this, as you work hard to achieve that convenience: readily available tows, good club
ships, and so on. Also, as I pointed out, money and job status are also important factors
contributing to convenience. Your obsessive concern that motorgliders are so special is
tunnel vision. Chill, and let us pursue all the conveniences that enable more people to do
more soaring.

I made reference in the initial start of this thread that the pure glider pilot plans
differently, most likely flies differently and therefore making the purist flight a
higher risk factor vs the motorglider. Last week three flights were made on the 26th here
in Florida and two of the flights were completed with motorgliders, the other a purist
flight, you tell me which one of those flights had the higher risk factor, a higher
failure factor, a greater land out factor, and a different approach toward accomplishing
the flight?
Your comments are becoming scary. How did you ever come to believe flying motorglider was
less risky than an unpowered glider? This is bad information, and there are no statistics
showing it is true. It's the PILOT, not the glider (powered or unpowered), that determines
the risk of a flight. A motorglider is a CONVENIENCE, not a SAFETY device. Please, please,
learn about motorgliders, then get 20 or flights in motorgliders, before offering
potentially dangerous opinions about their safety.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 2:40:17 PM UTC-4, Michael N. wrote:

Will this never end....? :-P

Same stuff that's been argued over and over for many years here on RAS.

I'm worried about the carbon footprint required to keep this endless discussion going (not!!! ;-) )

I do wonder what glove Bob uses when he stirs the proverbial pot of dung. Those must be some highly worn in crap stirring sticks.....

Haha, oh well keep it going, entertainment is entertainment....

P.S. Bob I came out to have a look at TCSC, nice operation. I'll be back later this year to soar with you guys, Ventus cT sustainer ready for use if needed.

Mike N. - 1M

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 9:24:25 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:

Jeez... I hate to take the other side, Bob, but... If you're gonna be
like Al Gore and talk about carbon, then what about your Pawnee? IIRC
from my towing days, a 235 hp Pawnee burns, what, 16 gph at takeoff? My Stemme burns 5 or 6 during takeoff and climb and, if I want to cruise
6-700 miles to find better lift, it burns about 3.2 gph. AND it burns
car gas.

Dan
5J
On 5/2/22 00:05, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 11:17:09 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:

Bob, I have a solution. A motorglider which can only use the engine to launch. Once the engine is shut down, it can no longer restarted until landing. What do you think? I guess the motorgliders can still landout in an airstrip and relaunch, so

should we tweak it so the engine can not be restarted again the same day?

Ramy (just trying to help)
Ramy,I would love to have that kill switch on Motorgliders, one and done! The engine electronic ignition could be programmed to shut down after the initial launch and not start again until the landing sensor has been activated after the landing,

what a great idea. What about the idea of if you start your sustainer you get no points on OLC for the day, and if you have a sustainer or self launch you are actually penalized for your flight.

On another note, I have stated in the past that I do understand the self launch aspect of this motorglider segment, who knows, maybe one day Old Bob may have a self launch, but not with one of the Solo engines that seems to have a lifespan of less

than 200 hours, what a bargain! What about a carbon tax on motorgliders, make these MG pilots pay for pollution, a special environmental fund.

Yep Ramy, some of these guys take this stuff way too serious, I seem to bring out the best in these motorglider pilots, my mailbox will be full of hate mail once again. Old Bob, The Purist

P.S. I love Bob’s entertainment. Some of us are taking ourselves way too seriously.
On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 5:33:06 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:53:56 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote: >>>> On 4/30/2022 3:31 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 4:54:58 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote: >>>>

Eric, I understand this situation extremely well, been doing this gig for a long time and still having fun. My observation on motor gliders and sustainers is right on target, I do not have a problem flying my pure glider over areas where land

out is a possibility, I must make good decisions unlike the motor glider drivers. The motor glider segment is for convenience, and I have no problem with that. When my skills erode to the point where I do not feel confident in making a challenging purist
flight I will just hang it up and move on to something new and exciting, but until that time comes I will be a purist. Old Bob, The Purist

Most of us, including you and me, want to avoid the inconvenience of landing away from our
home airport. Motorglider owners have chosen a motor to provide the convenience of making
it home; you've chosen to soar very cautiously to provide the convenience of making it
home. It's not a bad thing, as it's what most of the towed glider pilots do to varying
extents, but it's not what I consider "challenging" flying, which inevitably involves
landing away a few times a year. After all, if you always make it home, you are likely
leaving a lot soaring "on the table", and could've gone faster, farther, or longer, or all
of those.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, please do not lose sleep over the Purist vs the MG ! I have not left a lot on the table during my years of glider flying, rather I still put down in strange places every now and then. I just understand that there is a huge difference

between the way I plan and conduct my flights vs the MG guys. Old Bob, The Purist

Perhaps I have misjudged what I see on the OLC. How many retrieves have you had in the
last two or three years? How does your planning and flying differ from the MG guys? My
planning and flying did not change much when I got a motorglider, for example.

By the way, "motorglider guys" do not all have the same goals, priorities, and skills:
some soar cautiously and very rarely use the motor inflight; others push hard, and use the
motor much more frequently.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, I have had retrieves during the past few years and yes I will have more in the future. Yes, us purist do plan our flights accordingly and different from the MG guys and gals, we cannot make as many mistakes and therefore must optimize every

opportunity. Simply stated and understood is the fact that we do not have that get home free pass hanging around our necks. What you and others have failed to acknowledge is the fact that purist flights are much more demanding and require mush better
planning and execution that motor glider flights, we simply do not get a second chance.

You asked the question, 'How does my flight planning differ from MG flights", simple reply is that I do not have a get me out of this jam button to make me look like a hero! I think that your flights and planning differed more than you realize when

you got a MG, I look at this guy in Florida that is flying some type of Pippencrap? and takes off from Boca and motors out for a while and then tries gliding only to start the motor back up to get home and scores his points on OLC and I just shake my
head and laugh! Even "The Bum", would laugh at that scenario.

what amuses me is the fact that many MG guys and probably including yourself think that there is no difference between the purist flight and the saved by the start button switch flight. Do you think that I realize that there is a convenience of

having a self launch, why heck yes, I have no problem with self launch, finding old guys like myself and my old Pawnee are like the flip phone, hardly can find one anymore.

So, what and how should the purist flight be scored differently than the MG flight? The purist flight should be given extra OLC points because of the void of the start button or the as I call it the beam me up Scotty button.
I hope that I have answered your questions regarding Purist flights vs MG flights. Take care and I will pray that your Solo engine continues to run. Old Bob, The Purist

I believe I have made this point before: a launch in my 31Mi takes about half a gallon while a Not So Purist Bob's launch takes 3-4 gallons, clearly MUCH more environmentally friendly. And don't even get me started on retrieves.

Tom

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 11:40:17 AM UTC-7, mike...@gmail.com wrote:

Will this never end....? :-P

Same stuff that's been argued over and over for many years here on RAS.

I'm worried about the carbon footprint required to keep this endless discussion going (not!!! ;-) )

I do wonder what glove Bob uses when he stirs the proverbial pot of dung. Those must be some highly worn in crap stirring sticks.....

Haha, oh well keep it going, entertainment is entertainment....

Probably not. Not So Purist Bob keeps starting new threads beating the same dead horse (i.e. defaming motorgliders and their owners).

Tom

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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It is now clear why Bob does not want his own "Magic Button". He has much more fun pushing 2G's button(s), and I think it makes more noise too!

RR

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Holy crap! I couldn't look away! But I did notice that the driver of
the bus parked directly behind got the heck out of Dodge. Oh, and I saw
the glider reference in the article.

Dan
5J

On 5/2/22 11:08, Bob W. wrote:

On 5/2/22 10:34, Dan Marotta wrote:

Where did that electricity come from, Eric?  Coal burning, most
likely, or oil fired turbines.  Just because you didn't burn the coal
or oil does not make your motor "emissions free".

I wish all the electro-geeks would acknowledge that little tidbit
rather than smugly stating that they aren't polluting the atmosphere.
Huh... Considering conversion losses electric vehicles of any sort
probably contribute more pollution than gas guzzlers.

Aw, c'mon, Dan! Let's not insert killjoy-realities to an otherwise mostly-100%-opinionatory thread!!! Even if it *is* "something that 'obviously' goes without saying..."

And since we're enjoying a mid-spring snowstormlet outside as I type,
howziss for thread hijacking and pot-stirring? (And for those intolerant killjoys out there in RAS-land, please note a quick skim of the
article's comments will reveal *gliding* is mentioned - no, really!)

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/05/01/electric-bus-catches-fire-after-battery-explosion/

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 2:45:19 PM UTC-4, mike...@gmail.com wrote:

On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 2:40:17 PM UTC-4, Michael N. wrote:

Will this never end....? :-P

Same stuff that's been argued over and over for many years here on RAS.

I'm worried about the carbon footprint required to keep this endless discussion going (not!!! ;-) )

I do wonder what glove Bob uses when he stirs the proverbial pot of dung. Those must be some highly worn in crap stirring sticks.....

Haha, oh well keep it going, entertainment is entertainment....

P.S. Bob I came out to have a look at TCSC, nice operation. I'll be back later this year to soar with you guys, Ventus cT sustainer ready for use if needed.

Mike N. - 1M

Always welcome Mike, I do about 95 % of the towing and would be glad to have you at the end of the rope. Mike, I enjoy getting these MG guys all wired up and they just cannot get a good night of sleep without trying to justify their inferior flight
platform. Some of these characters can get pretty nasty, but they are good with their justification for assisted flight. Now me being a very mild mannered individual I look at these post as teachable moments, seems to me that these motorglider guys need
help in understanding the importance of being a purist. Old Bob, The Purist

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 5/2/2022 2:46 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 2:45:19 PM UTC-4, mike...@gmail.com wrote:

On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 2:40:17 PM UTC-4, Michael N. wrote:

Will this never end....? :-P

Same stuff that's been argued over and over for many years here on RAS.

I'm worried about the carbon footprint required to keep this endless discussion going (not!!! ;-) )

I do wonder what glove Bob uses when he stirs the proverbial pot of dung. Those must be some highly worn in crap stirring sticks.....

Haha, oh well keep it going, entertainment is entertainment....

P.S. Bob I came out to have a look at TCSC, nice operation. I'll be back later this year to soar with you guys, Ventus cT sustainer ready for use if needed.

Mike N. - 1M

Always welcome Mike, I do about 95 % of the towing and would be glad to have you at the end of the rope. Mike, I enjoy getting these MG guys all wired up and they just cannot get a good night of sleep without trying to justify their inferior flight

platform. Some of these characters can get pretty nasty, but they are good with their justification for assisted flight. Now me being a very mild mannered individual I look at these post as teachable moments, seems to me that these motorglider guys need
help in understanding the importance of being a purist. Old Bob, The Purist

If you really want to improve the Purist brand, you need to find a good role model, and
the best one I know of is Henry Combs. Saturday after Saturday, he flew straight out,
flying over 200 Diamond Distance flights, many of them ending in field landings. He
refused use aero retrieves; instead, he relied on his personality to entice many dozens of
people, most of them not glider people, to crew for him, to follow him hundreds of miles
an unknown destination, and bring him home. He set a high standard by example, not by
insulting people, but by inspiring them.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 5/2/2022 10:08 AM, Bob W. wrote:

On 5/2/22 10:34, Dan Marotta wrote:

Where did that electricity come from, Eric?  Coal burning, most likely, or oil fired
turbines.  Just because you didn't burn the coal or oil does not make your motor
"emissions free".

I wish all the electro-geeks would acknowledge that little tidbit rather than smugly
stating that they aren't polluting the atmosphere.  Huh... Considering conversion losses
electric vehicles of any sort probably contribute more pollution than gas guzzlers.

Aw, c'mon, Dan! Let's not insert killjoy-realities to an otherwise mostly-100%-opinionatory thread!!! Even if it *is* "something that 'obviously' goes
without saying..."

And since we're enjoying a mid-spring snowstormlet outside as I type, howziss for thread
hijacking and pot-stirring? (And for those intolerant killjoys out there in RAS-land,
please note a quick skim of the article's comments will reveal *gliding* is mentioned -
no, really!)

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/05/01/electric-bus-catches-fire-after-battery-explosion/

And bus fire powered by methane: https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-bus-fire/fact-check-clip-does-not-show-a-battery-electric-bus-on-fire-idUSL2N2WN1L4

A toss-up for spectacular.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 6:52:58 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 5/2/2022 2:46 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 2:45:19 PM UTC-4, mike...@gmail.com wrote:

On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 2:40:17 PM UTC-4, Michael N. wrote:

Will this never end....? :-P

Same stuff that's been argued over and over for many years here on RAS. >>>
I'm worried about the carbon footprint required to keep this endless discussion going (not!!! ;-) )

I do wonder what glove Bob uses when he stirs the proverbial pot of dung. Those must be some highly worn in crap stirring sticks.....

Haha, oh well keep it going, entertainment is entertainment....

P.S. Bob I came out to have a look at TCSC, nice operation. I'll be back later this year to soar with you guys, Ventus cT sustainer ready for use if needed.

Mike N. - 1M

Always welcome Mike, I do about 95 % of the towing and would be glad to have you at the end of the rope. Mike, I enjoy getting these MG guys all wired up and they just cannot get a good night of sleep without trying to justify their inferior flight

platform. Some of these characters can get pretty nasty, but they are good with their justification for assisted flight. Now me being a very mild mannered individual I look at these post as teachable moments, seems to me that these motorglider guys need
help in understanding the importance of being a purist. Old Bob, The Purist

If you really want to improve the Purist brand, you need to find a good role model, and
the best one I know of is Henry Combs. Saturday after Saturday, he flew straight out,
flying over 200 Diamond Distance flights, many of them ending in field landings. He
refused use aero retrieves; instead, he relied on his personality to entice many dozens of
people, most of them not glider people, to crew for him, to follow him hundreds of miles
an unknown destination, and bring him home. He set a high standard by example, not by
insulting people, but by inspiring them.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric don't think that is old purist didn't have a role model or two, I have been a real lucky guy and have flown gliders with some great pilots, probably none you ever heard of, but they were really good. The best of the guys was a man named Bennie
Flowers, who worked with Dr. August Raspet in the development of increased performance in sailplanes through advanced wing development. Bennie was years ahead of the times, his skills were sharp and his knowledge was extensive. As a young glider pilot
Bennie took me under his wing and for years taught me things about flying gliders that most would never achieve. Bennie and I were flying well before this wonderful Latin gentleman named Alfonso arrived and after E9 got his feet on the ground we were
flying almost daily for years, I was able to log more than 3000 hours in glass, so I guess that qualifies me as a seasoned purist.
I am very cognizant of Henry Combs, never actually met him but knew of his Libelle modifications and great flights no doubt he was a man who paid attention to detail as a structural engineer, I know that type well, my son is one. Old Bob, The Purist

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 6:52:58 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 5/2/2022 2:46 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 2:45:19 PM UTC-4, mike...@gmail.com wrote:

On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 2:40:17 PM UTC-4, Michael N. wrote:

Will this never end....? :-P

Same stuff that's been argued over and over for many years here on RAS. >>>
I'm worried about the carbon footprint required to keep this endless discussion going (not!!! ;-) )

I do wonder what glove Bob uses when he stirs the proverbial pot of dung. Those must be some highly worn in crap stirring sticks.....

Haha, oh well keep it going, entertainment is entertainment....

P.S. Bob I came out to have a look at TCSC, nice operation. I'll be back later this year to soar with you guys, Ventus cT sustainer ready for use if needed.

Mike N. - 1M

Always welcome Mike, I do about 95 % of the towing and would be glad to have you at the end of the rope. Mike, I enjoy getting these MG guys all wired up and they just cannot get a good night of sleep without trying to justify their inferior flight

platform. Some of these characters can get pretty nasty, but they are good with their justification for assisted flight. Now me being a very mild mannered individual I look at these post as teachable moments, seems to me that these motorglider guys need
help in understanding the importance of being a purist. Old Bob, The Purist

If you really want to improve the Purist brand, you need to find a good role model, and
the best one I know of is Henry Combs. Saturday after Saturday, he flew straight out,
flying over 200 Diamond Distance flights, many of them ending in field landings. He
refused use aero retrieves; instead, he relied on his personality to entice many dozens of
people, most of them not glider people, to crew for him, to follow him hundreds of miles
an unknown destination, and bring him home. He set a high standard by example, not by
insulting people, but by inspiring them.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Well we could also go back to the days of doing Diamond flights as downwind dashes with little to no communications with our ground support crew as so well detailed in Joseph Coleville Lincolns book Soaring For Diamonds. By the way one of my favorite
soaring books ever.

So why do we now fly triangles and out and returns for records? You could say the flying described in the book is truly "Purist".
We don't do that anymore because soaring technology improved to the point that we could actually get back to the originating airport while reaching those distance goals, which is EASIER.

Flying with the option to self retrieve is easier. Assuming the motor starts. As many have pointed out with a sustainer you still flight plan like the motor is not going to start. The motor starting should be a "pleasant surprise" after you've picked
your field etc...

Anyway I love the descriptions of flying adventures in Soaring For Diamonds. But that doesn't mean I'm to trade my radio and GPS data logger in for a Bariograph and barely functioning walkie-talkie.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 4:19:07 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 6:52:58 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 5/2/2022 2:46 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 2:45:19 PM UTC-4, mike...@gmail.com wrote:

On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 2:40:17 PM UTC-4, Michael N. wrote:

Will this never end....? :-P

Same stuff that's been argued over and over for many years here on RAS.

I'm worried about the carbon footprint required to keep this endless discussion going (not!!! ;-) )

I do wonder what glove Bob uses when he stirs the proverbial pot of dung. Those must be some highly worn in crap stirring sticks.....

Haha, oh well keep it going, entertainment is entertainment....

P.S. Bob I came out to have a look at TCSC, nice operation. I'll be back later this year to soar with you guys, Ventus cT sustainer ready for use if needed.

Mike N. - 1M

Always welcome Mike, I do about 95 % of the towing and would be glad to have you at the end of the rope. Mike, I enjoy getting these MG guys all wired up and they just cannot get a good night of sleep without trying to justify their inferior flight

platform. Some of these characters can get pretty nasty, but they are good with their justification for assisted flight. Now me being a very mild mannered individual I look at these post as teachable moments, seems to me that these motorglider guys need
help in understanding the importance of being a purist. Old Bob, The Purist

If you really want to improve the Purist brand, you need to find a good role model, and
the best one I know of is Henry Combs. Saturday after Saturday, he flew straight out,
flying over 200 Diamond Distance flights, many of them ending in field landings. He
refused use aero retrieves; instead, he relied on his personality to entice many dozens of
people, most of them not glider people, to crew for him, to follow him hundreds of miles
an unknown destination, and bring him home. He set a high standard by example, not by
insulting people, but by inspiring them.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric don't think that is old purist didn't have a role model or two, I have been a real lucky guy and have flown gliders with some great pilots, probably none you ever heard of, but they were really good. The best of the guys was a man named Bennie

Flowers, who worked with Dr. August Raspet in the development of increased performance in sailplanes through advanced wing development. Bennie was years ahead of the times, his skills were sharp and his knowledge was extensive. As a young glider pilot
Bennie took me under his wing and for years taught me things about flying gliders that most would never achieve. Bennie and I were flying well before this wonderful Latin gentleman named Alfonso arrived and after E9 got his feet on the ground we were
flying almost daily for years, I was able to log more than 3000 hours in glass, so I guess that qualifies me as a seasoned purist.

I am very cognizant of Henry Combs, never actually met him but knew of his Libelle modifications and great flights no doubt he was a man who paid attention to detail as a structural engineer, I know that type well, my son is one. Old Bob, The Purist

There is nothing "pure" about using a 235hp motor to get yourself launched, Not So Pure Bobby.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Back in the old days, we had "sustainers" and "self-launchers", and it
was just understood that a self-launcher also had good sustainer
capability. Now you're asking for a self-launch only ship.

But wait, the future is already here! It's called an "electric glider".

To save some time, Eric will immediately jump in and tell us what the
vaunted Jeta promises to deliver, and I'll respond that some appropriate
level of cynicism should be applied to a company with the track record
of GP. However, with a lot of "skin in the game" as Raul used to say,
Eric will be quite immune to changing his mind.

Ramy has said he'd buy a Jeta as soon as they showed up on the used
market. Good news, your dream ship is just gathering dust on W&W,
looking for its fourth private owner, and having an amazing 0 hrs TT.
Time to put your money where you mouth is, and snatch up this baby
before the dealer does. Maybe the bloom is off the rose on these
things, but Eric just hasn't gotten the word yet :-)

Dave



On 5/1/22 21:17, Ramy wrote:

Bob, I have a solution. A motorglider which can only use the engine to launch. Once the engine is shut down, it can no longer restarted until landing. What do you think? I guess the motorgliders can still landout in an airstrip and relaunch, so should

we tweak it so the engine can not be restarted again the same day?

Ramy (just trying to help)

P.S. I love Bob’s entertainment. Some of us are taking ourselves way too seriously.

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 5:33:06 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:53:56 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 4/30/2022 3:31 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 4:54:58 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

Eric, I understand this situation extremely well, been doing this gig for a long time and still having fun. My observation on motor gliders and sustainers is right on target, I do not have a problem flying my pure glider over areas where land out

is a possibility, I must make good decisions unlike the motor glider drivers. The motor glider segment is for convenience, and I have no problem with that. When my skills erode to the point where I do not feel confident in making a challenging purist
flight I will just hang it up and move on to something new and exciting, but until that time comes I will be a purist. Old Bob, The Purist

Most of us, including you and me, want to avoid the inconvenience of landing away from our
home airport. Motorglider owners have chosen a motor to provide the convenience of making
it home; you've chosen to soar very cautiously to provide the convenience of making it
home. It's not a bad thing, as it's what most of the towed glider pilots do to varying
extents, but it's not what I consider "challenging" flying, which inevitably involves
landing away a few times a year. After all, if you always make it home, you are likely
leaving a lot soaring "on the table", and could've gone faster, farther, or longer, or all
of those.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, please do not lose sleep over the Purist vs the MG ! I have not left a lot on the table during my years of glider flying, rather I still put down in strange places every now and then. I just understand that there is a huge difference between

the way I plan and conduct my flights vs the MG guys. Old Bob, The Purist

Perhaps I have misjudged what I see on the OLC. How many retrieves have you had in the
last two or three years? How does your planning and flying differ from the MG guys? My
planning and flying did not change much when I got a motorglider, for example.

By the way, "motorglider guys" do not all have the same goals, priorities, and skills:
some soar cautiously and very rarely use the motor inflight; others push hard, and use the
motor much more frequently.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, I have had retrieves during the past few years and yes I will have more in the future. Yes, us purist do plan our flights accordingly and different from the MG guys and gals, we cannot make as many mistakes and therefore must optimize every

opportunity. Simply stated and understood is the fact that we do not have that get home free pass hanging around our necks. What you and others have failed to acknowledge is the fact that purist flights are much more demanding and require mush better
planning and execution that motor glider flights, we simply do not get a second chance.

You asked the question, 'How does my flight planning differ from MG flights", simple reply is that I do not have a get me out of this jam button to make me look like a hero! I think that your flights and planning differed more than you realize when

you got a MG, I look at this guy in Florida that is flying some type of Pippencrap? and takes off from Boca and motors out for a while and then tries gliding only to start the motor back up to get home and scores his points on OLC and I just shake my
head and laugh! Even "The Bum", would laugh at that scenario.

what amuses me is the fact that many MG guys and probably including yourself think that there is no difference between the purist flight and the saved by the start button switch flight. Do you think that I realize that there is a convenience of having

a self launch, why heck yes, I have no problem with self launch, finding old guys like myself and my old Pawnee are like the flip phone, hardly can find one anymore.

So, what and how should the purist flight be scored differently than the MG flight? The purist flight should be given extra OLC points because of the void of the start button or the as I call it the beam me up Scotty button.
I hope that I have answered your questions regarding Purist flights vs MG flights. Take care and I will pray that your Solo engine continues to run. Old Bob, The Purist

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Ha, I don’t recall saying I’ll buy a used Jetta as soon as they are available in the used market.
Maybe an FES, maybe an AS33 electric, maybe a JS3 electric.
I am still awaiting for that retrieve from hell which will convince me to go to the dark side. Didn’t quiet have one yet.

Ramy

On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 10:13:37 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:

Back in the old days, we had "sustainers" and "self-launchers", and it
was just understood that a self-launcher also had good sustainer
capability. Now you're asking for a self-launch only ship.

But wait, the future is already here! It's called an "electric glider".

To save some time, Eric will immediately jump in and tell us what the vaunted Jeta promises to deliver, and I'll respond that some appropriate level of cynicism should be applied to a company with the track record
of GP. However, with a lot of "skin in the game" as Raul used to say,
Eric will be quite immune to changing his mind.

Ramy has said he'd buy a Jeta as soon as they showed up on the used
market. Good news, your dream ship is just gathering dust on W&W,
looking for its fourth private owner, and having an amazing 0 hrs TT.
Time to put your money where you mouth is, and snatch up this baby
before the dealer does. Maybe the bloom is off the rose on these
things, but Eric just hasn't gotten the word yet :-)

Dave
On 5/1/22 21:17, Ramy wrote:

Bob, I have a solution. A motorglider which can only use the engine to launch. Once the engine is shut down, it can no longer restarted until landing. What do you think? I guess the motorgliders can still landout in an airstrip and relaunch, so

should we tweak it so the engine can not be restarted again the same day?

Ramy (just trying to help)

P.S. I love Bob’s entertainment. Some of us are taking ourselves way too seriously.

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 5:33:06 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:53:56 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote: >>> On 4/30/2022 3:31 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 4:54:58 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote: >>>

Eric, I understand this situation extremely well, been doing this gig for a long time and still having fun. My observation on motor gliders and sustainers is right on target, I do not have a problem flying my pure glider over areas where land

out is a possibility, I must make good decisions unlike the motor glider drivers. The motor glider segment is for convenience, and I have no problem with that. When my skills erode to the point where I do not feel confident in making a challenging purist
flight I will just hang it up and move on to something new and exciting, but until that time comes I will be a purist. Old Bob, The Purist

Most of us, including you and me, want to avoid the inconvenience of landing away from our
home airport. Motorglider owners have chosen a motor to provide the convenience of making
it home; you've chosen to soar very cautiously to provide the convenience of making it
home. It's not a bad thing, as it's what most of the towed glider pilots do to varying
extents, but it's not what I consider "challenging" flying, which inevitably involves
landing away a few times a year. After all, if you always make it home, you are likely
leaving a lot soaring "on the table", and could've gone faster, farther, or longer, or all
of those.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, please do not lose sleep over the Purist vs the MG ! I have not left a lot on the table during my years of glider flying, rather I still put down in strange places every now and then. I just understand that there is a huge difference between

the way I plan and conduct my flights vs the MG guys. Old Bob, The Purist

Perhaps I have misjudged what I see on the OLC. How many retrieves have you had in the
last two or three years? How does your planning and flying differ from the MG guys? My
planning and flying did not change much when I got a motorglider, for example.

By the way, "motorglider guys" do not all have the same goals, priorities, and skills:
some soar cautiously and very rarely use the motor inflight; others push hard, and use the
motor much more frequently.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, I have had retrieves during the past few years and yes I will have more in the future. Yes, us purist do plan our flights accordingly and different from the MG guys and gals, we cannot make as many mistakes and therefore must optimize every

opportunity. Simply stated and understood is the fact that we do not have that get home free pass hanging around our necks. What you and others have failed to acknowledge is the fact that purist flights are much more demanding and require mush better
planning and execution that motor glider flights, we simply do not get a second chance.

You asked the question, 'How does my flight planning differ from MG flights", simple reply is that I do not have a get me out of this jam button to make me look like a hero! I think that your flights and planning differed more than you realize when

you got a MG, I look at this guy in Florida that is flying some type of Pippencrap? and takes off from Boca and motors out for a while and then tries gliding only to start the motor back up to get home and scores his points on OLC and I just shake my
head and laugh! Even "The Bum", would laugh at that scenario.

what amuses me is the fact that many MG guys and probably including yourself think that there is no difference between the purist flight and the saved by the start button switch flight. Do you think that I realize that there is a convenience of

having a self launch, why heck yes, I have no problem with self launch, finding old guys like myself and my old Pawnee are like the flip phone, hardly can find one anymore.

So, what and how should the purist flight be scored differently than the MG flight? The purist flight should be given extra OLC points because of the void of the start button or the as I call it the beam me up Scotty button.
I hope that I have answered your questions regarding Purist flights vs MG flights. Take care and I will pray that your Solo engine continues to run. Old Bob, The Purist

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Old Bob, you continue the fiction that cross country flight planning and execution are much different between motorgliders and non. If you were experienced with motorglider cross country flight, your opinion might carry some weight, but speaking from
complete ignorance it does not. Regarding separate classes in OLC, sure let's have one for motorgliders - and also recent designs vs older, those with crew vs those without, those who own a gliderport and towplane vs those who don't, those with jobs vs.
the unemployed, etc. A real "purist" would sell his trailer and limit his credit card to one tow a day (no relights, no retrieves). That would change your behavior far more than carrying a motor in the back. The trailer and retrieve towplane serve the
same purpose, just less expensive and not quite as convenient as a motor to use.
On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 5:33:06 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:53:56 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 4/30/2022 3:31 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 4:54:58 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

Eric, I understand this situation extremely well, been doing this gig for a long time and still having fun. My observation on motor gliders and sustainers is right on target, I do not have a problem flying my pure glider over areas where land out

is a possibility, I must make good decisions unlike the motor glider drivers. The motor glider segment is for convenience, and I have no problem with that. When my skills erode to the point where I do not feel confident in making a challenging purist
flight I will just hang it up and move on to something new and exciting, but until that time comes I will be a purist. Old Bob, The Purist

Most of us, including you and me, want to avoid the inconvenience of landing away from our
home airport. Motorglider owners have chosen a motor to provide the convenience of making
it home; you've chosen to soar very cautiously to provide the convenience of making it
home. It's not a bad thing, as it's what most of the towed glider pilots do to varying
extents, but it's not what I consider "challenging" flying, which inevitably involves
landing away a few times a year. After all, if you always make it home, you are likely
leaving a lot soaring "on the table", and could've gone faster, farther, or longer, or all
of those.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, please do not lose sleep over the Purist vs the MG ! I have not left a lot on the table during my years of glider flying, rather I still put down in strange places every now and then. I just understand that there is a huge difference between

the way I plan and conduct my flights vs the MG guys. Old Bob, The Purist

Perhaps I have misjudged what I see on the OLC. How many retrieves have you had in the
last two or three years? How does your planning and flying differ from the MG guys? My
planning and flying did not change much when I got a motorglider, for example.

By the way, "motorglider guys" do not all have the same goals, priorities, and skills:
some soar cautiously and very rarely use the motor inflight; others push hard, and use the
motor much more frequently.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, I have had retrieves during the past few years and yes I will have more in the future. Yes, us purist do plan our flights accordingly and different from the MG guys and gals, we cannot make as many mistakes and therefore must optimize every

opportunity. Simply stated and understood is the fact that we do not have that get home free pass hanging around our necks. What you and others have failed to acknowledge is the fact that purist flights are much more demanding and require mush better
planning and execution that motor glider flights, we simply do not get a second chance.

You asked the question, 'How does my flight planning differ from MG flights", simple reply is that I do not have a get me out of this jam button to make me look like a hero! I think that your flights and planning differed more than you realize when you

got a MG, I look at this guy in Florida that is flying some type of Pippencrap? and takes off from Boca and motors out for a while and then tries gliding only to start the motor back up to get home and scores his points on OLC and I just shake my head
and laugh! Even "The Bum", would laugh at that scenario.

what amuses me is the fact that many MG guys and probably including yourself think that there is no difference between the purist flight and the saved by the start button switch flight. Do you think that I realize that there is a convenience of having

a self launch, why heck yes, I have no problem with self launch, finding old guys like myself and my old Pawnee are like the flip phone, hardly can find one anymore.

So, what and how should the purist flight be scored differently than the MG flight? The purist flight should be given extra OLC points because of the void of the start button or the as I call it the beam me up Scotty button.
I hope that I have answered your questions regarding Purist flights vs MG flights. Take care and I will pray that your Solo engine continues to run. Old Bob, The Purist

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Just about anything will burn but some burn hotter and with more toxic
fumes. Some are also less tolerant of minor damage.

I have an obsolete electronic device with an embedded lithium battery.
Maybe I'll whack it with a hammer and see how it reacts. I wouldn't be
very concerned with smashing, say, a propane can used for refilling
lighters.

Dan
5J

On 5/2/22 17:58, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 5/2/2022 10:08 AM, Bob W. wrote:

On 5/2/22 10:34, Dan Marotta wrote:

Where did that electricity come from, Eric?  Coal burning, most
likely, or oil fired turbines.  Just because you didn't burn the coal
or oil does not make your motor "emissions free".

I wish all the electro-geeks would acknowledge that little tidbit
rather than smugly stating that they aren't polluting the
atmosphere.  Huh... Considering conversion losses electric vehicles
of any sort probably contribute more pollution than gas guzzlers.

Aw, c'mon, Dan! Let's not insert killjoy-realities to an otherwise
mostly-100%-opinionatory thread!!! Even if it *is* "something that
'obviously' goes without saying..."

And since we're enjoying a mid-spring snowstormlet outside as I type,
howziss for thread hijacking and pot-stirring? (And for those
intolerant killjoys out there in RAS-land, please note a quick skim of
the article's comments will reveal *gliding* is mentioned - no, really!)

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/05/01/electric-bus-catches-fire-after-battery-explosion/

And bus fire powered by methane: https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-bus-fire/fact-check-clip-does-not-show-a-battery-electric-bus-on-fire-idUSL2N2WN1L4

A toss-up for spectacular.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Bob in reality, most motorglider pilots do not take advantage of their motors and fly even more conservatively than pure gliders in the areas I fly (except some of the guys at Minden and Ely). If I had a motorglider I would have used it to fly from
different places and land in different places and explore different places. I wouldn’t tether myself to the nearest glider port and the days they operate. This is something I could never figure out with motorglider pilots that most of them in fact do
not take advantage of their motor as you believe.

Ramy

On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 9:02:26 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:

Old Bob, you continue the fiction that cross country flight planning and execution are much different between motorgliders and non. If you were experienced with motorglider cross country flight, your opinion might carry some weight, but speaking from

complete ignorance it does not. Regarding separate classes in OLC, sure let's have one for motorgliders - and also recent designs vs older, those with crew vs those without, those who own a gliderport and towplane vs those who don't, those with jobs vs.
the unemployed, etc. A real "purist" would sell his trailer and limit his credit card to one tow a day (no relights, no retrieves). That would change your behavior far more than carrying a motor in the back. The trailer and retrieve towplane serve the
same purpose, just less expensive and not quite as convenient as a motor to use.

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 5:33:06 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:53:56 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 4/30/2022 3:31 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 4:54:58 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

Eric, I understand this situation extremely well, been doing this gig for a long time and still having fun. My observation on motor gliders and sustainers is right on target, I do not have a problem flying my pure glider over areas where land

out is a possibility, I must make good decisions unlike the motor glider drivers. The motor glider segment is for convenience, and I have no problem with that. When my skills erode to the point where I do not feel confident in making a challenging purist
flight I will just hang it up and move on to something new and exciting, but until that time comes I will be a purist. Old Bob, The Purist

Most of us, including you and me, want to avoid the inconvenience of landing away from our
home airport. Motorglider owners have chosen a motor to provide the convenience of making
it home; you've chosen to soar very cautiously to provide the convenience of making it
home. It's not a bad thing, as it's what most of the towed glider pilots do to varying
extents, but it's not what I consider "challenging" flying, which inevitably involves
landing away a few times a year. After all, if you always make it home, you are likely
leaving a lot soaring "on the table", and could've gone faster, farther, or longer, or all
of those.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, please do not lose sleep over the Purist vs the MG ! I have not left a lot on the table during my years of glider flying, rather I still put down in strange places every now and then. I just understand that there is a huge difference

between the way I plan and conduct my flights vs the MG guys. Old Bob, The Purist

Perhaps I have misjudged what I see on the OLC. How many retrieves have you had in the
last two or three years? How does your planning and flying differ from the MG guys? My
planning and flying did not change much when I got a motorglider, for example.

By the way, "motorglider guys" do not all have the same goals, priorities, and skills:
some soar cautiously and very rarely use the motor inflight; others push hard, and use the
motor much more frequently.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, I have had retrieves during the past few years and yes I will have more in the future. Yes, us purist do plan our flights accordingly and different from the MG guys and gals, we cannot make as many mistakes and therefore must optimize every

opportunity. Simply stated and understood is the fact that we do not have that get home free pass hanging around our necks. What you and others have failed to acknowledge is the fact that purist flights are much more demanding and require mush better
planning and execution that motor glider flights, we simply do not get a second chance.

You asked the question, 'How does my flight planning differ from MG flights", simple reply is that I do not have a get me out of this jam button to make me look like a hero! I think that your flights and planning differed more than you realize when

you got a MG, I look at this guy in Florida that is flying some type of Pippencrap? and takes off from Boca and motors out for a while and then tries gliding only to start the motor back up to get home and scores his points on OLC and I just shake my
head and laugh! Even "The Bum", would laugh at that scenario.

what amuses me is the fact that many MG guys and probably including yourself think that there is no difference between the purist flight and the saved by the start button switch flight. Do you think that I realize that there is a convenience of

having a self launch, why heck yes, I have no problem with self launch, finding old guys like myself and my old Pawnee are like the flip phone, hardly can find one anymore.

So, what and how should the purist flight be scored differently than the MG flight? The purist flight should be given extra OLC points because of the void of the start button or the as I call it the beam me up Scotty button.
I hope that I have answered your questions regarding Purist flights vs MG flights. Take care and I will pray that your Solo engine continues to run. Old Bob, The Purist

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 12:02:26 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Old Bob, you continue the fiction that cross country flight planning and execution are much different between motorgliders and non. If you were experienced with motorglider cross country flight, your opinion might carry some weight, but speaking from

complete ignorance it does not. Regarding separate classes in OLC, sure let's have one for motorgliders - and also recent designs vs older, those with crew vs those without, those who own a gliderport and towplane vs those who don't, those with jobs vs.
the unemployed, etc. A real "purist" would sell his trailer and limit his credit card to one tow a day (no relights, no retrieves). That would change your behavior far more than carrying a motor in the back. The trailer and retrieve towplane serve the
same purpose, just less expensive and not quite as convenient as a motor to use.

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 5:33:06 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:53:56 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 4/30/2022 3:31 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 4:54:58 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

Eric, I understand this situation extremely well, been doing this gig for a long time and still having fun. My observation on motor gliders and sustainers is right on target, I do not have a problem flying my pure glider over areas where land

out is a possibility, I must make good decisions unlike the motor glider drivers. The motor glider segment is for convenience, and I have no problem with that. When my skills erode to the point where I do not feel confident in making a challenging purist
flight I will just hang it up and move on to something new and exciting, but until that time comes I will be a purist. Old Bob, The Purist

Most of us, including you and me, want to avoid the inconvenience of landing away from our
home airport. Motorglider owners have chosen a motor to provide the convenience of making
it home; you've chosen to soar very cautiously to provide the convenience of making it
home. It's not a bad thing, as it's what most of the towed glider pilots do to varying
extents, but it's not what I consider "challenging" flying, which inevitably involves
landing away a few times a year. After all, if you always make it home, you are likely
leaving a lot soaring "on the table", and could've gone faster, farther, or longer, or all
of those.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, please do not lose sleep over the Purist vs the MG ! I have not left a lot on the table during my years of glider flying, rather I still put down in strange places every now and then. I just understand that there is a huge difference

between the way I plan and conduct my flights vs the MG guys. Old Bob, The Purist

Perhaps I have misjudged what I see on the OLC. How many retrieves have you had in the
last two or three years? How does your planning and flying differ from the MG guys? My
planning and flying did not change much when I got a motorglider, for example.

By the way, "motorglider guys" do not all have the same goals, priorities, and skills:
some soar cautiously and very rarely use the motor inflight; others push hard, and use the
motor much more frequently.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, I have had retrieves during the past few years and yes I will have more in the future. Yes, us purist do plan our flights accordingly and different from the MG guys and gals, we cannot make as many mistakes and therefore must optimize every

opportunity. Simply stated and understood is the fact that we do not have that get home free pass hanging around our necks. What you and others have failed to acknowledge is the fact that purist flights are much more demanding and require mush better
planning and execution that motor glider flights, we simply do not get a second chance.

You asked the question, 'How does my flight planning differ from MG flights", simple reply is that I do not have a get me out of this jam button to make me look like a hero! I think that your flights and planning differed more than you realize when

you got a MG, I look at this guy in Florida that is flying some type of Pippencrap? and takes off from Boca and motors out for a while and then tries gliding only to start the motor back up to get home and scores his points on OLC and I just shake my
head and laugh! Even "The Bum", would laugh at that scenario.

what amuses me is the fact that many MG guys and probably including yourself think that there is no difference between the purist flight and the saved by the start button switch flight. Do you think that I realize that there is a convenience of

having a self launch, why heck yes, I have no problem with self launch, finding old guys like myself and my old Pawnee are like the flip phone, hardly can find one anymore.

So, what and how should the purist flight be scored differently than the MG flight? The purist flight should be given extra OLC points because of the void of the start button or the as I call it the beam me up Scotty button.
I hope that I have answered your questions regarding Purist flights vs MG flights. Take care and I will pray that your Solo engine continues to run. Old Bob, The Purist

Mr. Fitch, don't you remember the last time that you stated that I was wrong, yet the proof showed that I was correct, don't be so nieve.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 5/3/2022 10:04 AM, Ramy wrote:

Bob in reality, most motorglider pilots do not take advantage of their motors and fly even more conservatively than pure gliders in the areas I fly (except some of the guys at Minden and Ely). If I had a motorglider I would have used it to fly from

different places and land in different places and explore different places. I wouldn’t tether myself to the nearest glider port and the days they operate. This is something I could never figure out with motorglider pilots that most of them in fact do
not take advantage of their motor as you believe.

Ramy

It's been a puzzle to me, too, but you see it in towed glider pilots also. They will buy a
better glider, but don't extend their soaring performance commensurate with the improved
glider performance. Eventually, I realized they got it so they didn't get "in trouble" as
often, as the better glide angle made it easier to find that next thermal, and easier to
keep airports within gliding range. Much of the extra performance went to reducing stress
instead increasing speeds and distances, and that is how many MG pilots use the engine:
stress reduction, not bigger adventures.

My judgment is you are still years from slipping into "stress reduction" mode, so you'd
really enjoy the choices a motorglider gives, letting you make - heaven help the rest of
us - even bigger flights!

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 9:27:41 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:

Bob, you were wrong and are wrong. Are there some motorglider pilots that cheat? Undoubtedly. Are the "purist" pilots that cheat? Likewise. But your logic - if one motorglider pilot cheats then they all must - applies equally to "purists". They must

all cheat. Where you are wrong is in generalizing a specific case to a whole population, and inferring behavior and motives where none exist, without the slightest experience. You are like the man telling the woman that pregnancy is wonderful - how would
you know, exactly? That is naiveté.

Get some cross country time in a motorglider. Then you might at least have some idea what you are talking about. Until then it's just bloviation. If I come to Florida I'll just get you talking about motorgliders, that hot air thermal should be good for

a 1000K ;).

On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 12:08:07 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 12:02:26 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Old Bob, you continue the fiction that cross country flight planning and execution are much different between motorgliders and non. If you were experienced with motorglider cross country flight, your opinion might carry some weight, but speaking

from complete ignorance it does not. Regarding separate classes in OLC, sure let's have one for motorgliders - and also recent designs vs older, those with crew vs those without, those who own a gliderport and towplane vs those who don't, those with jobs
vs. the unemployed, etc. A real "purist" would sell his trailer and limit his credit card to one tow a day (no relights, no retrieves). That would change your behavior far more than carrying a motor in the back. The trailer and retrieve towplane serve
the same purpose, just less expensive and not quite as convenient as a motor to use.

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 5:33:06 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:53:56 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 4/30/2022 3:31 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 4:54:58 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

Eric, I understand this situation extremely well, been doing this gig for a long time and still having fun. My observation on motor gliders and sustainers is right on target, I do not have a problem flying my pure glider over areas where

land out is a possibility, I must make good decisions unlike the motor glider drivers. The motor glider segment is for convenience, and I have no problem with that. When my skills erode to the point where I do not feel confident in making a challenging
purist flight I will just hang it up and move on to something new and exciting, but until that time comes I will be a purist. Old Bob, The Purist

Most of us, including you and me, want to avoid the inconvenience of landing away from our
home airport. Motorglider owners have chosen a motor to provide the convenience of making
it home; you've chosen to soar very cautiously to provide the convenience of making it
home. It's not a bad thing, as it's what most of the towed glider pilots do to varying
extents, but it's not what I consider "challenging" flying, which inevitably involves
landing away a few times a year. After all, if you always make it home, you are likely
leaving a lot soaring "on the table", and could've gone faster, farther, or longer, or all
of those.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, please do not lose sleep over the Purist vs the MG ! I have not left a lot on the table during my years of glider flying, rather I still put down in strange places every now and then. I just understand that there is a huge difference

between the way I plan and conduct my flights vs the MG guys. Old Bob, The Purist

Perhaps I have misjudged what I see on the OLC. How many retrieves have you had in the
last two or three years? How does your planning and flying differ from the MG guys? My
planning and flying did not change much when I got a motorglider, for example.

By the way, "motorglider guys" do not all have the same goals, priorities, and skills:
some soar cautiously and very rarely use the motor inflight; others push hard, and use the
motor much more frequently.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, I have had retrieves during the past few years and yes I will have more in the future. Yes, us purist do plan our flights accordingly and different from the MG guys and gals, we cannot make as many mistakes and therefore must optimize every

opportunity. Simply stated and understood is the fact that we do not have that get home free pass hanging around our necks. What you and others have failed to acknowledge is the fact that purist flights are much more demanding and require mush better
planning and execution that motor glider flights, we simply do not get a second chance.

You asked the question, 'How does my flight planning differ from MG flights", simple reply is that I do not have a get me out of this jam button to make me look like a hero! I think that your flights and planning differed more than you realize

when you got a MG, I look at this guy in Florida that is flying some type of Pippencrap? and takes off from Boca and motors out for a while and then tries gliding only to start the motor back up to get home and scores his points on OLC and I just shake
my head and laugh! Even "The Bum", would laugh at that scenario.

what amuses me is the fact that many MG guys and probably including yourself think that there is no difference between the purist flight and the saved by the start button switch flight. Do you think that I realize that there is a convenience of

having a self launch, why heck yes, I have no problem with self launch, finding old guys like myself and my old Pawnee are like the flip phone, hardly can find one anymore.

So, what and how should the purist flight be scored differently than the MG flight? The purist flight should be given extra OLC points because of the void of the start button or the as I call it the beam me up Scotty button.
I hope that I have answered your questions regarding Purist flights vs MG flights. Take care and I will pray that your Solo engine continues to run. Old Bob, The Purist

Mr. Fitch, don't you remember the last time that you stated that I was wrong, yet the proof showed that I was correct, don't be so nieve.

Not So Purist Bobby is losing the battle, as he admitted at the start of this thread. His incoherent ramblings reflect a despair that are linked to his self-interest in selling tows. Nothing is going to change his mind, but he is likely stirring more
interest in motorgliders in a back-handed way. How ironic...

Tom

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Bob, you were wrong and are wrong. Are there some motorglider pilots that cheat? Undoubtedly. Are the "purist" pilots that cheat? Likewise. But your logic - if one motorglider pilot cheats then they all must - applies equally to "purists". They must all
cheat. Where you are wrong is in generalizing a specific case to a whole population, and inferring behavior and motives where none exist, without the slightest experience. You are like the man telling the woman that pregnancy is wonderful - how would you
know, exactly? That is naiveté.

Get some cross country time in a motorglider. Then you might at least have some idea what you are talking about. Until then it's just bloviation. If I come to Florida I'll just get you talking about motorgliders, that hot air thermal should be good for a
1000K ;).
On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 12:08:07 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 12:02:26 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Old Bob, you continue the fiction that cross country flight planning and execution are much different between motorgliders and non. If you were experienced with motorglider cross country flight, your opinion might carry some weight, but speaking from

complete ignorance it does not. Regarding separate classes in OLC, sure let's have one for motorgliders - and also recent designs vs older, those with crew vs those without, those who own a gliderport and towplane vs those who don't, those with jobs vs.
the unemployed, etc. A real "purist" would sell his trailer and limit his credit card to one tow a day (no relights, no retrieves). That would change your behavior far more than carrying a motor in the back. The trailer and retrieve towplane serve the
same purpose, just less expensive and not quite as convenient as a motor to use.

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 5:33:06 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:53:56 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 4/30/2022 3:31 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 4:54:58 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

Eric, I understand this situation extremely well, been doing this gig for a long time and still having fun. My observation on motor gliders and sustainers is right on target, I do not have a problem flying my pure glider over areas where land

out is a possibility, I must make good decisions unlike the motor glider drivers. The motor glider segment is for convenience, and I have no problem with that. When my skills erode to the point where I do not feel confident in making a challenging purist
flight I will just hang it up and move on to something new and exciting, but until that time comes I will be a purist. Old Bob, The Purist

Most of us, including you and me, want to avoid the inconvenience of landing away from our
home airport. Motorglider owners have chosen a motor to provide the convenience of making
it home; you've chosen to soar very cautiously to provide the convenience of making it
home. It's not a bad thing, as it's what most of the towed glider pilots do to varying
extents, but it's not what I consider "challenging" flying, which inevitably involves
landing away a few times a year. After all, if you always make it home, you are likely
leaving a lot soaring "on the table", and could've gone faster, farther, or longer, or all
of those.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, please do not lose sleep over the Purist vs the MG ! I have not left a lot on the table during my years of glider flying, rather I still put down in strange places every now and then. I just understand that there is a huge difference

between the way I plan and conduct my flights vs the MG guys. Old Bob, The Purist

Perhaps I have misjudged what I see on the OLC. How many retrieves have you had in the
last two or three years? How does your planning and flying differ from the MG guys? My
planning and flying did not change much when I got a motorglider, for example.

By the way, "motorglider guys" do not all have the same goals, priorities, and skills:
some soar cautiously and very rarely use the motor inflight; others push hard, and use the
motor much more frequently.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, I have had retrieves during the past few years and yes I will have more in the future. Yes, us purist do plan our flights accordingly and different from the MG guys and gals, we cannot make as many mistakes and therefore must optimize every

opportunity. Simply stated and understood is the fact that we do not have that get home free pass hanging around our necks. What you and others have failed to acknowledge is the fact that purist flights are much more demanding and require mush better
planning and execution that motor glider flights, we simply do not get a second chance.

You asked the question, 'How does my flight planning differ from MG flights", simple reply is that I do not have a get me out of this jam button to make me look like a hero! I think that your flights and planning differed more than you realize when

you got a MG, I look at this guy in Florida that is flying some type of Pippencrap? and takes off from Boca and motors out for a while and then tries gliding only to start the motor back up to get home and scores his points on OLC and I just shake my
head and laugh! Even "The Bum", would laugh at that scenario.

what amuses me is the fact that many MG guys and probably including yourself think that there is no difference between the purist flight and the saved by the start button switch flight. Do you think that I realize that there is a convenience of

having a self launch, why heck yes, I have no problem with self launch, finding old guys like myself and my old Pawnee are like the flip phone, hardly can find one anymore.

So, what and how should the purist flight be scored differently than the MG flight? The purist flight should be given extra OLC points because of the void of the start button or the as I call it the beam me up Scotty button.
I hope that I have answered your questions regarding Purist flights vs MG flights. Take care and I will pray that your Solo engine continues to run. Old Bob, The Purist

Mr. Fitch, don't you remember the last time that you stated that I was wrong, yet the proof showed that I was correct, don't be so nieve.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Ramy, your comment is right on. Some of us in the motorgliding community, me included, are leaving some great soaring unflown due to not fully utilizing the gift of self-launch. Thanks for the positive challenge!

I personally have only flown a small handful of “no towplane” sites in the six seasons I have flown my ‘26 - a crime, I realize, now that I reflect on your comment. A self launcher is a discovery machine!

A recent example: Michael Price recently flew a pioneering wave flight out of North Georgia in his Ventus 2 self launcher, he put some serious miles in BUT just scratched the surface…. Well done, Mike, looking forward to some really big flights using
the same approach! We other self launch pilots in the Southeast need to join you in such explorations.

I personally want to get that last “big fish”, my 1000k south-of-the-Mason-Dixon-and-west-of-the-Mississippi (as I did all my Diamonds, in a pure glider by the way…). A way to do this is to camp my ‘26 at a southern Appalachian airport (no
towplane required) during the ridge season, and go on a weather watch for the big day…. Perhaps using wave like Mike is pioneering!

Right now my upcoming western soaring safari has August into September open as far as flying sites…. Perhaps Wyoming warrants some no-tow-plane-available exploration!

Thanks for the positive challenge, Ramy! It’s getting better!

Cheers,
Jim J6

On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 12:04:37 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:

Bob in reality, most motorglider pilots do not take advantage of their motors and fly even more conservatively than pure gliders in the areas I fly (except some of the guys at Minden and Ely). If I had a motorglider I would have used it to fly from

different places and land in different places and explore different places. I wouldn’t tether myself to the nearest glider port and the days they operate. This is something I could never figure out with motorglider pilots that most of them in fact do
not take advantage of their motor as you believe.

Ramy

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 7:02:07 AM UTC-6, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:

Ramy, your comment is right on. Some of us in the motorgliding community, me included, are leaving some great soaring unflown due to not fully utilizing the gift of self-launch. Thanks for the positive challenge!

I personally have only flown a small handful of “no towplane” sites in the six seasons I have flown my ‘26 - a crime, I realize, now that I reflect on your comment. A self launcher is a discovery machine!

A recent example: Michael Price recently flew a pioneering wave flight out of North Georgia in his Ventus 2 self launcher, he put some serious miles in BUT just scratched the surface…. Well done, Mike, looking forward to some really big flights using

the same approach! We other self launch pilots in the Southeast need to join you in such explorations.

I personally want to get that last “big fish”, my 1000k south-of-the-Mason-Dixon-and-west-of-the-Mississippi (as I did all my Diamonds, in a pure glider by the way…). A way to do this is to camp my ‘26 at a southern Appalachian airport (no

towplane required) during the ridge season, and go on a weather watch for the big day…. Perhaps using wave like Mike is pioneering!

Right now my upcoming western soaring safari has August into September open as far as flying sites…. Perhaps Wyoming warrants some no-tow-plane-available exploration!

Thanks for the positive challenge, Ramy! It’s getting better!

Cheers,
Jim J6
On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 12:04:37 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:

Bob in reality, most motorglider pilots do not take advantage of their motors and fly even more conservatively than pure gliders in the areas I fly (except some of the guys at Minden and Ely). If I had a motorglider I would have used it to fly from

different places and land in different places and explore different places. I wouldn’t tether myself to the nearest glider port and the days they operate. This is something I could never figure out with motorglider pilots that most of them in fact do
not take advantage of their motor as you believe.

Ramy

ALONE
Def: By yourself

Yes Ramy is correct and that is my observation too; that MG pilots don't often go out and fly new interesting places, alone.
At the end of Telluride Soaring existence I was the last one here for a couple of years.
I would go the the field alone, rig alone, take off alone and go fly these great flights, you guessed it, alone. No one to share any of anything with and my wife could care less. It wasn't a whole lot of fun to be honest.
Today 95% of my soaring is at a events with others around.
This idea of dragging your MG to Hanksville Ut or Austin NV for a solo week alone doesn't sound all that great to me. But that's just me.
Nick
T

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 6:34:23 AM UTC-7, nickkennedy...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 7:02:07 AM UTC-6, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:

Ramy, your comment is right on. Some of us in the motorgliding community, me included, are leaving some great soaring unflown due to not fully utilizing the gift of self-launch. Thanks for the positive challenge!

I personally have only flown a small handful of “no towplane” sites in the six seasons I have flown my ‘26 - a crime, I realize, now that I reflect on your comment. A self launcher is a discovery machine!

A recent example: Michael Price recently flew a pioneering wave flight out of North Georgia in his Ventus 2 self launcher, he put some serious miles in BUT just scratched the surface…. Well done, Mike, looking forward to some really big flights

using the same approach! We other self launch pilots in the Southeast need to join you in such explorations.

I personally want to get that last “big fish”, my 1000k south-of-the-Mason-Dixon-and-west-of-the-Mississippi (as I did all my Diamonds, in a pure glider by the way…). A way to do this is to camp my ‘26 at a southern Appalachian airport (no

towplane required) during the ridge season, and go on a weather watch for the big day…. Perhaps using wave like Mike is pioneering!

Right now my upcoming western soaring safari has August into September open as far as flying sites…. Perhaps Wyoming warrants some no-tow-plane-available exploration!

Thanks for the positive challenge, Ramy! It’s getting better!

Cheers,
Jim J6
On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 12:04:37 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:

Bob in reality, most motorglider pilots do not take advantage of their motors and fly even more conservatively than pure gliders in the areas I fly (except some of the guys at Minden and Ely). If I had a motorglider I would have used it to fly from

different places and land in different places and explore different places. I wouldn’t tether myself to the nearest glider port and the days they operate. This is something I could never figure out with motorglider pilots that most of them in fact do
not take advantage of their motor as you believe.

Ramy

ALONE
Def: By yourself

Yes Ramy is correct and that is my observation too; that MG pilots don't often go out and fly new interesting places, alone.
At the end of Telluride Soaring existence I was the last one here for a couple of years.
I would go the the field alone, rig alone, take off alone and go fly these great flights, you guessed it, alone. No one to share any of anything with and my wife could care less. It wasn't a whole lot of fun to be honest.
Today 95% of my soaring is at a events with others around.
This idea of dragging your MG to Hanksville Ut or Austin NV for a solo week alone doesn't sound all that great to me. But that's just me.
Nick
T

Nick, I can understand your feeling of spending time alone is not enjoyable. When I take my Phoenix touring motor glider I make an effort to catch dinner at a local brewery or bar and engage in a conversation with strangers. It is remarkably enjoyable
to share soaring pictures and tales with people that are not aware of soaring. I get the feeling of the early barnstormers.
I try to look at the Skysight forecast and launch based on that and then follow the convergence forecast or the clouds. Then as the day weakens or it is getting late find an airport and figure out what to do next. I have a sleeping bag and tent with
me but really want a motel room and a meal.
I've got thousands of hours in my SGS 1-26 and years of hang gliding. I know pure soaring. Motor gliding touring has been my favorite adventure. I'm surprised more pilots are not doing it.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 5/4/2022 6:34 AM, Nicholas Kennedy wrote:

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 7:02:07 AM UTC-6, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:

On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 12:04:37 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:

Bob in reality, most motorglider pilots do not take advantage of their motors and fly even more conservatively than pure gliders in the areas I fly (except some of the guys at Minden and Ely). If I had a motorglider I would have used it to fly from

different places and land in different places and explore different places. I wouldn’t tether myself to the nearest glider port and the days they operate. This is something I could never figure out with motorglider pilots that most of them in fact do
not take advantage of their motor as you believe.

Ramy

ALONE
Def: By yourself

Yes Ramy is correct and that is my observation too; that MG pilots don't often go out and fly new interesting places, alone.
At the end of Telluride Soaring existence I was the last one here for a couple of years.
I would go the the field alone, rig alone, take off alone and go fly these great flights, you guessed it, alone. No one to share any of anything with and my wife could care less. It wasn't a whole lot of fun to be honest.
Today 95% of my soaring is at a events with others around.
This idea of dragging your MG to Hanksville Ut or Austin NV for a solo week alone doesn't sound all that great to me. But that's just me.
Nick

It is more fun when others are around! I'm sure you could find other motorglider pilots
that would love to fly from Austin or other good soaring location. I've done it, and it's
easy to arrange: just some dates for where you'd like to fly, let other MG pilots know you
are looking for company, agree on dates, show up and fly.

in 2021, I did that at Richfield, UT. Five of us (three ASH26E, one each Silent 2 Electro
and Ventus 2cM) had good flights over 10 days or so of flying. There's another approach,
if you live in an area of good soaring: entice MG pilots to come to your airport. Shmuel
Dimenstein in Rifle, UT, has made that work really well for him. Or do something like I
did in April: fly out a convenient airport (Willows, California), and you'll have the
company of pilots flying from Williams, Hollister, and more.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Nick makes a great point and along with that is getting ramp access to random gated airports located near the convergence/favored soaring terrain.
Darren

ALONE
Def: By yourself

Yes Ramy is correct and that is my observation too; that MG pilots don't often go out and fly new interesting places, alone.
At the end of Telluride Soaring existence I was the last one here for a couple of years.
I would go the the field alone, rig alone, take off alone and go fly these great flights, you guessed it, alone. No one to share any of anything with and my wife could care less. It wasn't a whole lot of fun to be honest.
Today 95% of my soaring is at a events with others around.
This idea of dragging your MG to Hanksville Ut or Austin NV for a solo week alone doesn't sound all that great to me. But that's just me.
Nick
T

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Yes, Nick, this is an issue. Not just on the enjoyment front, but for safety also. For me also, soaring is as much a social thing as an aviation thing. And safety is paramount.

In the self-launch world, we need more encampments like the annual Aux-powered Sailplane Association Parowan event. The Parowan camp has been full/oversubscribed/waitlisted for years now, and the new FBO there at 1L9 has rearranged the ramp a bit so
there is less glider tiedown capacity (although he is friendly and supportive of the event) reducing capacity and making the problem worse. We at ASA have talked about an Eastern camp (probably during ridge/wave season) but efforts to find a suitable
site have stalled. Site reconnaissance possible because of the gift of self-launch, as suggested by Ramy's comment, has to be done to find suitable sites for small/medium size group encampments, which is the enjoyment "gold standard" in my experience.

So, perhaps with some less-than-optimal-fun solo or buddy-pair site reconnaissance (with safety considered by pre-arranged tracking monitoring) we can open up some new and interesting soaring sites for the growing group of self-launchers. Regarding my
ideas to reconnoiter some new sites this August/September, are there any other retired airport bums with self-launchers out there who might want to buddy up with me on this?

Not to leave the purists out: I have noted that there have been some some recent acquisitions of privately owned (non-commercial and non-club) towplanes which may eventually become available "for hire" to support towed gliders at encampments. Too early
to tell, but this might be a good development for the adventurous purists out there.

Bob, apologies for hijacking your post, but it has really spawned some interesting and productive discussion. We probably ought to spawn new discussion strings to explore these further....

It's getting better!

Cheers,
Jim J6

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:34:23 AM UTC-5, nickkennedy...@gmail.com wrote:

ALONE
Def: By yourself

Yes Ramy is correct and that is my observation too; that MG pilots don't often go out and fly new interesting places, alone.
At the end of Telluride Soaring existence I was the last one here for a couple of years.
I would go the the field alone, rig alone, take off alone and go fly these great flights, you guessed it, alone. No one to share any of anything with and my wife could care less. It wasn't a whole lot of fun to be honest.
Today 95% of my soaring is at a events with others around.
This idea of dragging your MG to Hanksville Ut or Austin NV for a solo week alone doesn't sound all that great to me. But that's just me.
Nick
T

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 5/4/2022 8:51 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:

Shmuel Dimenstein in Rifle, UT, has made that work really well for him.

That should be Rifle, CO, not UT!

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 5/4/2022 8:43 AM, Darren Braun wrote:

If getting access for a MG trailer is a problem, you won't be flying there with a
towplane, either. My experience with gated airports is good, with them letting me bring
the motorhome and trailer onto the ramp (like Richfield and Rifle). What can cause
problems is airline service, even if it's just commuter service, due to additional TSA
safety and security requirements, but some of those airports will work with me, letting me
assemble on the ramp, but requiring me to keep the motorhome outside the gate after that.

Nick makes a great point and along with that is getting ramp access to random gated airports located near the convergence/favored soaring terrain.
Darren

ALONE
Def: By yourself

Yes Ramy is correct and that is my observation too; that MG pilots don't often go out and fly new interesting places, alone.
At the end of Telluride Soaring existence I was the last one here for a couple of years.
I would go the the field alone, rig alone, take off alone and go fly these great flights, you guessed it, alone. No one to share any of anything with and my wife could care less. It wasn't a whole lot of fun to be honest.
Today 95% of my soaring is at a events with others around.
This idea of dragging your MG to Hanksville Ut or Austin NV for a solo week alone doesn't sound all that great to me. But that's just me.
Nick
T

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 9:45:32 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:

If getting access for a MG trailer is a problem, you won't be flying there with a
towplane, either. My experience with gated airports is good, with them letting me bring
the motorhome and trailer onto the ramp (like Richfield and Rifle). What can cause
problems is airline service, even if it's just commuter service, due to additional TSA
safety and security requirements, but some of those airports will work with me, letting me
assemble on the ramp, but requiring me to keep the motorhome outside the gate after that.

Eric, good to know. It would awesome to get a list of RV/MG friendly places going in some shape or form.
Darren

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Ritchfield, UT... I launched out of there in 2001 using a friend's
ASW-24e on the 4th of July. It was the fourth day of our safari and I
flew north to Salina, east to Green River, south over Moab and
Montecello, UT, then to Cortez, CO, and landed at Durango. A great day
and a great week of straight out soaring flights!

Dan
5J

On 5/4/22 09:51, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 5/4/2022 6:34 AM, Nicholas Kennedy wrote:

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 7:02:07 AM UTC-6, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:

On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 12:04:37 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:

Bob in reality, most motorglider pilots do not take advantage of
their motors and fly even more conservatively than pure gliders in
the areas I fly (except some of the guys at Minden and Ely). If I
had a motorglider I would have used it to fly from different places
and land in different places and explore different places. I
wouldn’t tether myself to the nearest glider port and the days they
operate. This is something I could never figure out with motorglider
pilots that most of them in fact do not take advantage of their
motor as you believe.

Ramy

ALONE
  Def: By yourself

Yes Ramy is correct and that is my observation too; that MG pilots
don't often go out and fly new interesting places, alone.
At the end of Telluride Soaring existence I was the last  one here for
a couple of years.
I would go the the field alone, rig alone, take off alone and go fly
these great flights, you guessed it, alone. No one to share any of
anything with and my wife could care less. It wasn't a whole lot of
fun to be honest.
Today 95% of my soaring is at a events with others around.
This idea of dragging your MG to Hanksville Ut or Austin NV for a solo
week alone doesn't sound all that great to me. But that's just me.
Nick

It is more fun when others are around! I'm sure you could find other motorglider pilots that would love to fly from Austin or other good
soaring location. I've done it, and it's easy to arrange: just some
dates for where you'd like to fly, let other MG pilots know you are
looking for company, agree on dates, show up and fly.

in 2021, I did that at Richfield, UT. Five of us (three ASH26E, one each Silent 2 Electro and Ventus 2cM) had good flights over 10 days or so of flying. There's another approach, if you live in an area of good
soaring: entice MG pilots to come to your airport. Shmuel Dimenstein in Rifle, UT, has made that work really well for him. Or do something like
I did in April: fly out a convenient airport (Willows, California), and you'll have the company of pilots flying from Williams, Hollister, and
more.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I have a partner in my Cessna 180 and he owns an ASW-27b. We explored
the possibility of installing a tow release on the 180 so that we could
go safari together (he's also a tow pilot). ... But the insurance
company said (paraphrasing) HELL NO!

Dan
5J

On 5/4/22 10:09, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:

Yes, Nick, this is an issue. Not just on the enjoyment front, but for safety also. For me also, soaring is as much a social thing as an aviation thing. And safety is paramount.

In the self-launch world, we need more encampments like the annual Aux-powered Sailplane Association Parowan event. The Parowan camp has been full/oversubscribed/waitlisted for years now, and the new FBO there at 1L9 has rearranged the ramp a bit so

there is less glider tiedown capacity (although he is friendly and supportive of the event) reducing capacity and making the problem worse. We at ASA have talked about an Eastern camp (probably during ridge/wave season) but efforts to find a suitable
site have stalled. Site reconnaissance possible because of the gift of self-launch, as suggested by Ramy's comment, has to be done to find suitable sites for small/medium size group encampments, which is the enjoyment "gold standard" in my experience.

So, perhaps with some less-than-optimal-fun solo or buddy-pair site reconnaissance (with safety considered by pre-arranged tracking monitoring) we can open up some new and interesting soaring sites for the growing group of self-launchers. Regarding my

ideas to reconnoiter some new sites this August/September, are there any other retired airport bums with self-launchers out there who might want to buddy up with me on this?

Not to leave the purists out: I have noted that there have been some some recent acquisitions of privately owned (non-commercial and non-club) towplanes which may eventually become available "for hire" to support towed gliders at encampments. Too

early to tell, but this might be a good development for the adventurous purists out there.

Bob, apologies for hijacking your post, but it has really spawned some interesting and productive discussion. We probably ought to spawn new discussion strings to explore these further....

It's getting better!

Cheers,
Jim J6

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:34:23 AM UTC-5, nickkennedy...@gmail.com wrote:

ALONE
Def: By yourself

Yes Ramy is correct and that is my observation too; that MG pilots don't often go out and fly new interesting places, alone.
At the end of Telluride Soaring existence I was the last one here for a couple of years.
I would go the the field alone, rig alone, take off alone and go fly these great flights, you guessed it, alone. No one to share any of anything with and my wife could care less. It wasn't a whole lot of fun to be honest.
Today 95% of my soaring is at a events with others around.
This idea of dragging your MG to Hanksville Ut or Austin NV for a solo week alone doesn't sound all that great to me. But that's just me.
Nick
T

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

If you fly in with a MG, you are just an odd looking airplane, and it's usually easier
than trying to get in with a trailer and tow vehicle, then rigging. The oddest situation I
had was in Canada, where I landed at an airport with a FSS (sort of). Because it had
commuter service, they won't allow me to bring the motorhome and trailer on the the ramp,
but they did allow me to back the trailer through the gate (just the back end - wheels had
to stay outside!). They helped push the glider to the trailer, I derigged, everybody was
happy.

Eric

On 5/4/2022 12:31 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:

Montrose, CO has airline service and I've attended two Stemme gatherings there.  We tie
our gliders down at the south end while the airline terminal is at the north end.  We also
use different runways so, as long as everyone monitors the radio at this non-towered
airport, there are no difficulties.

My LS6 partner landed our ship at Gallup, NM while on another safari back in the mid-90s.
There was no TSA then and airport life was much friendlier.  An inbound airliner, upon
hearing that Walt was preparing to land, offered to hold for him.  He had plenty of
altitude, hovered up high, and told the airliner to land ahead of him.  I was waiting by
the taxiway and, when he rolled out, I drove out onto the runway and we hooked up the tow
out gear and moved to the ramp where we dismantled the ship.

Not wanting to interfere in the morning, we trailered to Holbrook, AZ, checked in with the
airport manager, rigged and launched me by auto tow using our 1,000' rope.  By the time
Walt had the rope rolled up, I was passing through 14,000' MSL.  Good times!

Dan
5J

On 5/4/22 10:45, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 5/4/2022 8:43 AM, Darren Braun wrote:

If getting access for a MG trailer is a problem, you won't be flying there with a
towplane, either. My experience with gated airports is good, with them letting me bring
the motorhome and trailer onto the ramp (like Richfield and Rifle). What can cause
problems is airline service, even if it's just commuter service, due to additional TSA
safety and security requirements, but some of those airports will work with me, letting
me assemble on the ramp, but requiring me to keep the motorhome outside the gate after
that.

Nick makes a great point and along with that is getting ramp access to random gated
airports located near the convergence/favored soaring terrain.
Darren

ALONE
Def: By yourself

Yes Ramy is correct and that is my observation too; that MG pilots don't often go out
and fly new interesting places, alone.
At the end of Telluride Soaring existence I was the last one here for a couple of years.
I would go the the field alone, rig alone, take off alone and go fly these great
flights, you guessed it, alone. No one to share any of anything with and my wife could
care less. It wasn't a whole lot of fun to be honest.
Today 95% of my soaring is at a events with others around.
This idea of dragging your MG to Hanksville Ut or Austin NV for a solo week alone
doesn't sound all that great to me. But that's just me.
Nick
T

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Montrose, CO has airline service and I've attended two Stemme gatherings
there. We tie our gliders down at the south end while the airline
terminal is at the north end. We also use different runways so, as long
as everyone monitors the radio at this non-towered airport, there are no difficulties.

My LS6 partner landed our ship at Gallup, NM while on another safari
back in the mid-90s. There was no TSA then and airport life was much friendlier. An inbound airliner, upon hearing that Walt was preparing
to land, offered to hold for him. He had plenty of altitude, hovered up
high, and told the airliner to land ahead of him. I was waiting by the
taxiway and, when he rolled out, I drove out onto the runway and we
hooked up the tow out gear and moved to the ramp where we dismantled the
ship.

Not wanting to interfere in the morning, we trailered to Holbrook, AZ,
checked in with the airport manager, rigged and launched me by auto tow
using our 1,000' rope. By the time Walt had the rope rolled up, I was
passing through 14,000' MSL. Good times!

Dan
5J

On 5/4/22 10:45, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 5/4/2022 8:43 AM, Darren Braun wrote:

If getting access for a MG trailer is a problem, you won't be flying
there with a towplane, either. My experience with gated airports is
good, with them letting me bring the motorhome and trailer onto the ramp (like Richfield and Rifle). What can cause problems is airline service,
even if it's just commuter service, due to additional TSA safety and
security requirements, but some of those airports will work with me,
letting me assemble on the ramp, but requiring me to keep the motorhome outside the gate after that.

Nick makes a great point and along with that is getting ramp access to
random gated airports located near the convergence/favored soaring
terrain.
Darren

ALONE
Def: By yourself

Yes Ramy is correct and that is my observation too; that MG pilots
don't often go out and fly new interesting places, alone.
At the end of Telluride Soaring existence I was the last one here for
a couple of years.
I would go the the field alone, rig alone, take off alone and go fly
these great flights, you guessed it, alone. No one to share any of
anything with and my wife could care less. It wasn't a whole lot of
fun to be honest.
Today 95% of my soaring is at a events with others around.
This idea of dragging your MG to Hanksville Ut or Austin NV for a
solo week alone doesn't sound all that great to me. But that's just me.
Nick
T

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 3:23:00 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:

I have a partner in my Cessna 180 and he owns an ASW-27b. We explored
the possibility of installing a tow release on the 180 so that we could
go safari together (he's also a tow pilot). ... But the insurance
company said (paraphrasing) HELL NO!

Dan
5J
On 5/4/22 10:09, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:

Yes, Nick, this is an issue. Not just on the enjoyment front, but for safety also. For me also, soaring is as much a social thing as an aviation thing. And safety is paramount.

In the self-launch world, we need more encampments like the annual Aux-powered Sailplane Association Parowan event. The Parowan camp has been full/oversubscribed/waitlisted for years now, and the new FBO there at 1L9 has rearranged the ramp a bit so

there is less glider tiedown capacity (although he is friendly and supportive of the event) reducing capacity and making the problem worse. We at ASA have talked about an Eastern camp (probably during ridge/wave season) but efforts to find a suitable
site have stalled. Site reconnaissance possible because of the gift of self-launch, as suggested by Ramy's comment, has to be done to find suitable sites for small/medium size group encampments, which is the enjoyment "gold standard" in my experience.

So, perhaps with some less-than-optimal-fun solo or buddy-pair site reconnaissance (with safety considered by pre-arranged tracking monitoring) we can open up some new and interesting soaring sites for the growing group of self-launchers. Regarding

my ideas to reconnoiter some new sites this August/September, are there any other retired airport bums with self-launchers out there who might want to buddy up with me on this?

Not to leave the purists out: I have noted that there have been some some recent acquisitions of privately owned (non-commercial and non-club) towplanes which may eventually become available "for hire" to support towed gliders at encampments. Too

early to tell, but this might be a good development for the adventurous purists out there.

Bob, apologies for hijacking your post, but it has really spawned some interesting and productive discussion. We probably ought to spawn new discussion strings to explore these further....

It's getting better!

Cheers,
Jim J6

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:34:23 AM UTC-5, nickkennedy...@gmail.com wrote:

ALONE
Def: By yourself

Yes Ramy is correct and that is my observation too; that MG pilots don't often go out and fly new interesting places, alone.
At the end of Telluride Soaring existence I was the last one here for a couple of years.
I would go the the field alone, rig alone, take off alone and go fly these great flights, you guessed it, alone. No one to share any of anything with and my wife could care less. It wasn't a whole lot of fun to be honest.
Today 95% of my soaring is at a events with others around.
This idea of dragging your MG to Hanksville Ut or Austin NV for a solo week alone doesn't sound all that great to me. But that's just me.
Nick
T

Dan, I had a tow hook on a 180, no problem. Old Bob, The Purist

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 12:09:22 PM UTC-4, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:

Yes, Nick, this is an issue. Not just on the enjoyment front, but for safety also. For me also, soaring is as much a social thing as an aviation thing. And safety is paramount.

In the self-launch world, we need more encampments like the annual Aux-powered Sailplane Association Parowan event. The Parowan camp has been full/oversubscribed/waitlisted for years now, and the new FBO there at 1L9 has rearranged the ramp a bit so

there is less glider tiedown capacity (although he is friendly and supportive of the event) reducing capacity and making the problem worse. We at ASA have talked about an Eastern camp (probably during ridge/wave season) but efforts to find a suitable
site have stalled. Site reconnaissance possible because of the gift of self-launch, as suggested by Ramy's comment, has to be done to find suitable sites for small/medium size group encampments, which is the enjoyment "gold standard" in my experience.

So, perhaps with some less-than-optimal-fun solo or buddy-pair site reconnaissance (with safety considered by pre-arranged tracking monitoring) we can open up some new and interesting soaring sites for the growing group of self-launchers. Regarding my

ideas to reconnoiter some new sites this August/September, are there any other retired airport bums with self-launchers out there who might want to buddy up with me on this?

Not to leave the purists out: I have noted that there have been some some recent acquisitions of privately owned (non-commercial and non-club) towplanes which may eventually become available "for hire" to support towed gliders at encampments. Too early

to tell, but this might be a good development for the adventurous purists out there.

Bob, apologies for hijacking your post, but it has really spawned some interesting and productive discussion. We probably ought to spawn new discussion strings to explore these further....
It's getting better!

No Bum, keep it going, some of the mg comments have been funnier than Saturday Night Live with Eddie Murphy. I will make one comment on the MG guys remarks, your included, why haven't you mg guys been doing longer and better flights? Seems like a no
brainer with that teat that you have to suck if you get low! Oh, I almost forgot Mr. Bum, I might just be your tow pilot soon if things work out, please don't be scared. Old Bob, The Purist

Cheers,
Jim J6
On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:34:23 AM UTC-5, nickkennedy...@gmail.com wrote:

ALONE
Def: By yourself

Yes Ramy is correct and that is my observation too; that MG pilots don't often go out and fly new interesting places, alone.
At the end of Telluride Soaring existence I was the last one here for a couple of years.
I would go the the field alone, rig alone, take off alone and go fly these great flights, you guessed it, alone. No one to share any of anything with and my wife could care less. It wasn't a whole lot of fun to be honest.
Today 95% of my soaring is at a events with others around.
This idea of dragging your MG to Hanksville Ut or Austin NV for a solo week alone doesn't sound all that great to me. But that's just me.
Nick
T

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 5/4/2022 4:27 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
's getting better!

No Bum, keep it going, some of the mg comments have been funnier than Saturday Night Live with Eddie Murphy. I will make one comment on the MG guys remarks, your included, why haven't you mg guys been doing longer and better flights? Seems like a no

brainer with that teat that you have to suck if you get low! Oh, I almost forgot Mr. Bum, I might just be your tow pilot soon if things work out, please don't be scared. Old Bob, The Purist

You've been telling us pilots use motorgliders to go farther and faster than they would in
a "pure" glider, and how they plan and fly so differently than the "pure" glider pilots.
But now it seems you've noticed that's not true, and are wondering why. I'm glad you've
finally realized the two groups of pilots are not nearly as different as you thought. If
you want to meet pilots that really do plan and fly differently from each other, talk to
1-26 pilots and Nimbus 3 pilots!

Once again: Most pilots buy a motorglider for convenience, not speed and distance. You
know, getting launched where there aren't any towplanes, avoiding that hour-long wait in
the towline, reliably getting home on time, that kind of thing. Convenience, Bob,
Convenience!

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 11:37:32 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 5/4/2022 4:27 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
's getting better!

No Bum, keep it going, some of the mg comments have been funnier than Saturday Night Live with Eddie Murphy. I will make one comment on the MG guys remarks, your included, why haven't you mg guys been doing longer and better flights? Seems like a no

brainer with that teat that you have to suck if you get low! Oh, I almost forgot Mr. Bum, I might just be your tow pilot soon if things work out, please don't be scared. Old Bob, The Purist

You've been telling us pilots use motorgliders to go farther and faster than they would in
a "pure" glider, and how they plan and fly so differently than the "pure" glider pilots.
But now it seems you've noticed that's not true, and are wondering why. I'm glad you've
finally realized the two groups of pilots are not nearly as different as you thought. If
you want to meet pilots that really do plan and fly differently from each other, talk to
1-26 pilots and Nimbus 3 pilots!

Once again: Most pilots buy a motorglider for convenience, not speed and distance. You
know, getting launched where there aren't any towplanes, avoiding that hour-long wait in
the towline, reliably getting home on time, that kind of thing. Convenience, Bob,
Convenience!
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, I have flown with MG pilots, there is more to MG's than convenience, and you still ignore the opinion that there is a difference between the two paradigms. Yes, I do like enlightening you MG and sustainer guys, your skewed justification and lack of
acknowledging the differences amuses me, I still laugh! Now at least the sustainer guys contribute to the club when they are towed, 40-60 bucks helps the club with the overall operating expenses. Does you club charge the self launch pilot for use of the
field or do they just get in their self launch and depart and go back home for an early dinner and pack their ship away? I think that or club will start charging a field use for self launch gliders, say 15 bucks for each self launch departure, after all
we must pay the rent and fuel bill for the tractor that mows the strip. Now I know that , "The Bum", is going to get bent out of shape on this idea, but if he comes to Vero I will pay the fee for his use of the field. Old Bob, The Purist

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

but repeated requests for specifics from myself and others have gone unanswered.

Eric- Old Bob always answers your questions. It's just that his answers do not provide any information. It's like asking a politician for specifics. You get plenty of volume, but no substance.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Eric, myself, and many other MG pilots posting here have extensive cross country experience in both "pure" and motorgliders. I've been flying "pure" gliders since 1968 and motorgliders since 2000. Bob, you have no experience with motorgliders other than
watching them from afar. So yes, we continue to ignore your uninformed and ignorant *opinion*. But this post makes clearer, perhaps, the real motivation: tow fees. That is at least rational. A motorglider is not less expensive than paying for tows -
rather it costs more than all the tows you are ever likely to get - but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket. And yes, the places I fly all charge a motorglider launch fee to cover the facilities, between $12 and $20 per launch. Tie down,
trailer parking, oxygen, etc. are the same for either. Having seen the financials for my home field, a tow doesn't net the FBO $20 after paying for fuel, towplane maintenance, tow pilot, etc. In fact the private tows are a net loser, and are really just
provided as a service, subsidized by rides and instruction.
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 4:34:27 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 11:37:32 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 5/4/2022 4:27 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
's getting better!

No Bum, keep it going, some of the mg comments have been funnier than Saturday Night Live with Eddie Murphy. I will make one comment on the MG guys remarks, your included, why haven't you mg guys been doing longer and better flights? Seems like a

no brainer with that teat that you have to suck if you get low! Oh, I almost forgot Mr. Bum, I might just be your tow pilot soon if things work out, please don't be scared. Old Bob, The Purist

You've been telling us pilots use motorgliders to go farther and faster than they would in
a "pure" glider, and how they plan and fly so differently than the "pure" glider pilots.
But now it seems you've noticed that's not true, and are wondering why. I'm glad you've
finally realized the two groups of pilots are not nearly as different as you thought. If
you want to meet pilots that really do plan and fly differently from each other, talk to
1-26 pilots and Nimbus 3 pilots!

Once again: Most pilots buy a motorglider for convenience, not speed and distance. You
know, getting launched where there aren't any towplanes, avoiding that hour-long wait in
the towline, reliably getting home on time, that kind of thing. Convenience, Bob,
Convenience!
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, I have flown with MG pilots, there is more to MG's than convenience, and you still ignore the opinion that there is a difference between the two paradigms. Yes, I do like enlightening you MG and sustainer guys, your skewed justification and lack

of acknowledging the differences amuses me, I still laugh! Now at least the sustainer guys contribute to the club when they are towed, 40-60 bucks helps the club with the overall operating expenses. Does you club charge the self launch pilot for use of
the field or do they just get in their self launch and depart and go back home for an early dinner and pack their ship away? I think that or club will start charging a field use for self launch gliders, say 15 bucks for each self launch departure, after
all we must pay the rent and fuel bill for the tractor that mows the strip. Now I know that , "The Bum", is going to get bent out of shape on this idea, but if he comes to Vero I will pay the fee for his use of the field. Old Bob, The Purist

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Bob, the problem is that our insurance company won't provide coverage if
we install a hook. I know that's ridiculous but maybe they're concerned
that 4717 tows given or thereabouts, is not enough experience. Then
again it could be my age. The insurance companies are quite open about
their age discrimination, after all...

Dan
5J

On 5/4/22 17:21, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 3:23:00 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:

I have a partner in my Cessna 180 and he owns an ASW-27b. We explored
the possibility of installing a tow release on the 180 so that we could
go safari together (he's also a tow pilot). ... But the insurance
company said (paraphrasing) HELL NO!

Dan
5J
On 5/4/22 10:09, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:

Yes, Nick, this is an issue. Not just on the enjoyment front, but for safety also. For me also, soaring is as much a social thing as an aviation thing. And safety is paramount.

In the self-launch world, we need more encampments like the annual Aux-powered Sailplane Association Parowan event. The Parowan camp has been full/oversubscribed/waitlisted for years now, and the new FBO there at 1L9 has rearranged the ramp a bit so

there is less glider tiedown capacity (although he is friendly and supportive of the event) reducing capacity and making the problem worse. We at ASA have talked about an Eastern camp (probably during ridge/wave season) but efforts to find a suitable
site have stalled. Site reconnaissance possible because of the gift of self-launch, as suggested by Ramy's comment, has to be done to find suitable sites for small/medium size group encampments, which is the enjoyment "gold standard" in my experience.

So, perhaps with some less-than-optimal-fun solo or buddy-pair site reconnaissance (with safety considered by pre-arranged tracking monitoring) we can open up some new and interesting soaring sites for the growing group of self-launchers. Regarding

my ideas to reconnoiter some new sites this August/September, are there any other retired airport bums with self-launchers out there who might want to buddy up with me on this?

Not to leave the purists out: I have noted that there have been some some recent acquisitions of privately owned (non-commercial and non-club) towplanes which may eventually become available "for hire" to support towed gliders at encampments. Too

early to tell, but this might be a good development for the adventurous purists out there.

Bob, apologies for hijacking your post, but it has really spawned some interesting and productive discussion. We probably ought to spawn new discussion strings to explore these further....

It's getting better!

Cheers,
Jim J6

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:34:23 AM UTC-5, nickkennedy...@gmail.com wrote:

ALONE
Def: By yourself

Yes Ramy is correct and that is my observation too; that MG pilots don't often go out and fly new interesting places, alone.
At the end of Telluride Soaring existence I was the last one here for a couple of years.
I would go the the field alone, rig alone, take off alone and go fly these great flights, you guessed it, alone. No one to share any of anything with and my wife could care less. It wasn't a whole lot of fun to be honest.
Today 95% of my soaring is at a events with others around.
This idea of dragging your MG to Hanksville Ut or Austin NV for a solo week alone doesn't sound all that great to me. But that's just me.
Nick
T

Dan, I had a tow hook on a 180, no problem. Old Bob, The Purist

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I ran across a true purist in 1969 or 1970 at Crystalaire when I was renting their 1-34 learning about real soaring. He was a German student that had rented a glider, Cirrus I think, to do XCountry. He had no crew. He would fly North as far as he
could go, no effort to return, and mostly land at an airport, but sometimes not. He would tie down the glider and hitchhike back to his car at Crystal, hook up the trailer and retrieve the glider. He said he would recruit help in the in a local bar
when he got to the glider at night. Once back he put it together again and headed North. I believe he said he was there for a month.

Bruce Patton
(Just went to dark side with a HPH 304MS after flying the HP-18 I built since 1982)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 11:10:37 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Eric, myself, and many other MG pilots posting here have extensive cross country experience in both "pure" and motorgliders. I've been flying "pure" gliders since 1968 and motorgliders since 2000. Bob, you have no experience with motorgliders other

than watching them from afar. So yes, we continue to ignore your uninformed and ignorant *opinion*. But this post makes clearer, perhaps, the real motivation: tow fees. That is at least rational. A motorglider is not less expensive than paying for tows -
rather it costs more than all the tows you are ever likely to get - but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket. And yes, the places I fly all charge a motorglider launch fee to cover the facilities, between $12 and $20 per launch. Tie down,
trailer parking, oxygen, etc. are the same for either. Having seen the financials for my home field, a tow doesn't net the FBO $20 after paying for fuel, towplane maintenance, tow pilot, etc. In fact the private tows are a net loser, and are really just
provided as a service, subsidized by rides and instruction.


Mr. Fitch, you need to get a grip on yourself and calm down, you should be more polite when you disagree with someone. For your information I have flown motorgliders both here in the US and abroad. I was introduced to motorgliders many years prior to
your entry into the category. Secondly I do not profit from the towplane, I have personally bought three Pawnee's for the purpose of starting and developing a club, which I have and we have been very successful, probably the most successful club in the
US since our inception to the sport five years ago, prior to that I flew off my own strip. The towplane engine was new in 2021, I paid for it, I paid for all maintenance and repairs, and any other associated expenses to help our club. I could continue
with what I have done for soaring, but I will not ask you what you have done. Have a good evening. Old Bob, The Purist

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 4:34:27 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 11:37:32 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 5/4/2022 4:27 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
's getting better!

No Bum, keep it going, some of the mg comments have been funnier than Saturday Night Live with Eddie Murphy. I will make one comment on the MG guys remarks, your included, why haven't you mg guys been doing longer and better flights? Seems like a

no brainer with that teat that you have to suck if you get low! Oh, I almost forgot Mr. Bum, I might just be your tow pilot soon if things work out, please don't be scared. Old Bob, The Purist

You've been telling us pilots use motorgliders to go farther and faster than they would in
a "pure" glider, and how they plan and fly so differently than the "pure" glider pilots.
But now it seems you've noticed that's not true, and are wondering why. I'm glad you've
finally realized the two groups of pilots are not nearly as different as you thought. If
you want to meet pilots that really do plan and fly differently from each other, talk to
1-26 pilots and Nimbus 3 pilots!

Once again: Most pilots buy a motorglider for convenience, not speed and distance. You
know, getting launched where there aren't any towplanes, avoiding that hour-long wait in
the towline, reliably getting home on time, that kind of thing. Convenience, Bob,
Convenience!
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, I have flown with MG pilots, there is more to MG's than convenience, and you still ignore the opinion that there is a difference between the two paradigms. Yes, I do like enlightening you MG and sustainer guys, your skewed justification and

lack of acknowledging the differences amuses me, I still laugh! Now at least the sustainer guys contribute to the club when they are towed, 40-60 bucks helps the club with the overall operating expenses. Does you club charge the self launch pilot for use
of the field or do they just get in their self launch and depart and go back home for an early dinner and pack their ship away? I think that or club will start charging a field use for self launch gliders, say 15 bucks for each self launch departure,
after all we must pay the rent and fuel bill for the tractor that mows the strip. Now I know that , "The Bum", is going to get bent out of shape on this idea, but if he comes to Vero I will pay the fee for his use of the field. Old Bob, The Purist

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 3:32:33 PM UTC-4, bpattonsoa@yahoo.com wrote:

I ran across a true purist in 1969 or 1970 at Crystalaire when I was renting their 1-34 learning about real soaring. He was a German student that had rented a glider, Cirrus I think, to do XCountry. He had no crew. He would fly North as far as he could

go, no effort to return, and mostly land at an airport, but sometimes not. He would tie down the glider and hitchhike back to his car at Crystal, hook up the trailer and retrieve the glider. He said he would recruit help in the in a local bar when he got
to the glider at night. Once back he put it together again and headed North. I believe he said he was there for a month.

Bruce Patton
(Just went to dark side with a HPH 304MS after flying the HP-18 I built since 1982)

Bruce, come on over and join the fun with us here on the Treasure Coast, free tow on me or free self launch fee, on me. Old Bob, The Purist

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I am pretty sure old Bob doesn’t have any hidden agenda other than triggering motorglider pilots and making fun of them ;) if/when I get a motor, Bob will be the first to know and I’ll brace myself…

Now my view on the subject is simple: it is far less of a hassle to fly motorgliders. You can fly almost anywhere and anytime without bagging for tow pilots and waiting in line, and you can fly cross country without much worry about landout, crew etc.
You pay for it with cash and much more maintainace hassle.
Except very few exceptions, I don’t see any noticeable difference between motorglider flights vs pure gliders. The main thing that motorglider pilots are missing are the roller coaster emotions the pure glider pilot experience when they have to dig
themselves out of a possible landout far from home in the middle of nowhere…

Ramy

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 1:57:52 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 11:10:37 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Eric, myself, and many other MG pilots posting here have extensive cross country experience in both "pure" and motorgliders. I've been flying "pure" gliders since 1968 and motorgliders since 2000. Bob, you have no experience with motorgliders other

than watching them from afar. So yes, we continue to ignore your uninformed and ignorant *opinion*. But this post makes clearer, perhaps, the real motivation: tow fees. That is at least rational. A motorglider is not less expensive than paying for tows -
rather it costs more than all the tows you are ever likely to get - but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket. And yes, the places I fly all charge a motorglider launch fee to cover the facilities, between $12 and $20 per launch. Tie down,
trailer parking, oxygen, etc. are the same for either. Having seen the financials for my home field, a tow doesn't net the FBO $20 after paying for fuel, towplane maintenance, tow pilot, etc. In fact the private tows are a net loser, and are really just
provided as a service, subsidized by rides and instruction.

Mr. Fitch, you need to get a grip on yourself and calm down, you should be more polite when you disagree with someone. For your information I have flown motorgliders both here in the US and abroad. I was introduced to motorgliders many years prior to

your entry into the category. Secondly I do not profit from the towplane, I have personally bought three Pawnee's for the purpose of starting and developing a club, which I have and we have been very successful, probably the most successful club in the
US since our inception to the sport five years ago, prior to that I flew off my own strip. The towplane engine was new in 2021, I paid for it, I paid for all maintenance and repairs, and any other associated expenses to help our club. I could continue
with what I have done for soaring, but I will not ask you what you have done. Have a good evening. Old Bob, The Purist

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 4:34:27 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 11:37:32 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 5/4/2022 4:27 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
's getting better!

No Bum, keep it going, some of the mg comments have been funnier than Saturday Night Live with Eddie Murphy. I will make one comment on the MG guys remarks, your included, why haven't you mg guys been doing longer and better flights? Seems like

a no brainer with that teat that you have to suck if you get low! Oh, I almost forgot Mr. Bum, I might just be your tow pilot soon if things work out, please don't be scared. Old Bob, The Purist

You've been telling us pilots use motorgliders to go farther and faster than they would in
a "pure" glider, and how they plan and fly so differently than the "pure" glider pilots.
But now it seems you've noticed that's not true, and are wondering why. I'm glad you've
finally realized the two groups of pilots are not nearly as different as you thought. If
you want to meet pilots that really do plan and fly differently from each other, talk to
1-26 pilots and Nimbus 3 pilots!

Once again: Most pilots buy a motorglider for convenience, not speed and distance. You
know, getting launched where there aren't any towplanes, avoiding that hour-long wait in
the towline, reliably getting home on time, that kind of thing. Convenience, Bob,
Convenience!
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, I have flown with MG pilots, there is more to MG's than convenience, and you still ignore the opinion that there is a difference between the two paradigms. Yes, I do like enlightening you MG and sustainer guys, your skewed justification and

lack of acknowledging the differences amuses me, I still laugh! Now at least the sustainer guys contribute to the club when they are towed, 40-60 bucks helps the club with the overall operating expenses. Does you club charge the self launch pilot for use
of the field or do they just get in their self launch and depart and go back home for an early dinner and pack their ship away? I think that or club will start charging a field use for self launch gliders, say 15 bucks for each self launch departure,
after all we must pay the rent and fuel bill for the tractor that mows the strip. Now I know that , "The Bum", is going to get bent out of shape on this idea, but if he comes to Vero I will pay the fee for his use of the field. Old Bob, The Purist

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 5/5/2022 3:29 PM, Ramy wrote:

Except very few exceptions, I don’t see any noticeable difference between motorglider flights vs pure gliders. The main thing that motorglider pilots are missing are the roller coaster emotions the pure glider pilot experience when they have to dig

themselves out of a possible landout far from home in the middle of nowhere…

Ramy

The thrill of a low save is still there, but not accompanied by as much sweat as a towed
pilot produces. The retrieve would be more difficult for the motorglider because of it's
extra weight, but it's less likely to need a retrieve. Balancing the risk of landout vs
retrieve has to be done by both pilots.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Ramy, you are right on. I am continually fighting the urge to keep flying like a pure glider and turn on my fan to extend my gliding and pleasure.On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 7:04:37 AM UTC-10, Ramy wrote:

Bob in reality, most motorglider pilots do not take advantage of their motors and fly even more conservatively than pure gliders in the areas I fly (except some of the guys at Minden and Ely). If I had a motorglider I would have used it to fly from

different places and land in different places and explore different places. I wouldn’t tether myself to the nearest glider port and the days they operate. This is something I could never figure out with motorglider pilots that most of them in fact do
not take advantage of their motor as you believe.

Ramy
On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 9:02:26 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:

Old Bob, you continue the fiction that cross country flight planning and execution are much different between motorgliders and non. If you were experienced with motorglider cross country flight, your opinion might carry some weight, but speaking from

complete ignorance it does not. Regarding separate classes in OLC, sure let's have one for motorgliders - and also recent designs vs older, those with crew vs those without, those who own a gliderport and towplane vs those who don't, those with jobs vs.
the unemployed, etc. A real "purist" would sell his trailer and limit his credit card to one tow a day (no relights, no retrieves). That would change your behavior far more than carrying a motor in the back. The trailer and retrieve towplane serve the
same purpose, just less expensive and not quite as convenient as a motor to use.

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 5:33:06 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:53:56 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 4/30/2022 3:31 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 4:54:58 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

Eric, I understand this situation extremely well, been doing this gig for a long time and still having fun. My observation on motor gliders and sustainers is right on target, I do not have a problem flying my pure glider over areas where land

out is a possibility, I must make good decisions unlike the motor glider drivers. The motor glider segment is for convenience, and I have no problem with that. When my skills erode to the point where I do not feel confident in making a challenging purist
flight I will just hang it up and move on to something new and exciting, but until that time comes I will be a purist. Old Bob, The Purist

Most of us, including you and me, want to avoid the inconvenience of landing away from our
home airport. Motorglider owners have chosen a motor to provide the convenience of making
it home; you've chosen to soar very cautiously to provide the convenience of making it
home. It's not a bad thing, as it's what most of the towed glider pilots do to varying
extents, but it's not what I consider "challenging" flying, which inevitably involves
landing away a few times a year. After all, if you always make it home, you are likely
leaving a lot soaring "on the table", and could've gone faster, farther, or longer, or all
of those.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, please do not lose sleep over the Purist vs the MG ! I have not left a lot on the table during my years of glider flying, rather I still put down in strange places every now and then. I just understand that there is a huge difference

between the way I plan and conduct my flights vs the MG guys. Old Bob, The Purist

Perhaps I have misjudged what I see on the OLC. How many retrieves have you had in the
last two or three years? How does your planning and flying differ from the MG guys? My
planning and flying did not change much when I got a motorglider, for example.

By the way, "motorglider guys" do not all have the same goals, priorities, and skills:
some soar cautiously and very rarely use the motor inflight; others push hard, and use the
motor much more frequently.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, I have had retrieves during the past few years and yes I will have more in the future. Yes, us purist do plan our flights accordingly and different from the MG guys and gals, we cannot make as many mistakes and therefore must optimize every

opportunity. Simply stated and understood is the fact that we do not have that get home free pass hanging around our necks. What you and others have failed to acknowledge is the fact that purist flights are much more demanding and require mush better
planning and execution that motor glider flights, we simply do not get a second chance.

You asked the question, 'How does my flight planning differ from MG flights", simple reply is that I do not have a get me out of this jam button to make me look like a hero! I think that your flights and planning differed more than you realize when

you got a MG, I look at this guy in Florida that is flying some type of Pippencrap? and takes off from Boca and motors out for a while and then tries gliding only to start the motor back up to get home and scores his points on OLC and I just shake my
head and laugh! Even "The Bum", would laugh at that scenario.

what amuses me is the fact that many MG guys and probably including yourself think that there is no difference between the purist flight and the saved by the start button switch flight. Do you think that I realize that there is a convenience of

having a self launch, why heck yes, I have no problem with self launch, finding old guys like myself and my old Pawnee are like the flip phone, hardly can find one anymore.

So, what and how should the purist flight be scored differently than the MG flight? The purist flight should be given extra OLC points because of the void of the start button or the as I call it the beam me up Scotty button.
I hope that I have answered your questions regarding Purist flights vs MG flights. Take care and I will pray that your Solo engine continues to run. Old Bob, The Purist

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Yes, even myself after 26 years and 4000+ hours flying a motorglider, I still have to give
myself pep talks ("You don't need to turn around now! Stay here with the good soaring
instead of dashing for the airport at home!"). Most motorgliders pilots have a lot of
towed glider experience, and have a very hard time overriding that experience. Towed Bob
doesn't understand this, and confuses what is possible with what actually happens.

There are some that do expand their soaring; for example, Kempton Izuno made a number of
unassisted safaris when he had his ASH26E, and that inspired me to be more adventurous.
But, The Kings of Kross-Kountry have to Winfried Boos and Fritz Schneider, with their
unassisted safaris from Texas to Alaska, and across Africa. What challenges they faced so
boldly!

On 5/5/2022 9:11 PM, Dennis wrote:

Ramy, you are right on. I am continually fighting the urge to keep flying like a pure glider and turn on my fan to extend my gliding and pleasure.On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 7:04:37 AM UTC-10, Ramy wrote:

Bob in reality, most motorglider pilots do not take advantage of their motors and fly even more conservatively than pure gliders in the areas I fly (except some of the guys at Minden and Ely). If I had a motorglider I would have used it to fly from

different places and land in different places and explore different places. I wouldn’t tether myself to the nearest glider port and the days they operate. This is something I could never figure out with motorglider pilots that most of them in fact do
not take advantage of their motor as you believe.

Ramy

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Bob,
Reread my response - I was perfectly polite (and calm). You must be confusing me with someone else :). And you were the one that brought up the lost tow fees, not me. In fact, I bought a towplane for our glider operation, after I already had a
motorglider and always self launched.

Ramy,
I am aware that Bob is simply trolling for controversy, but he is a bit like a train wreck - hard to look away.

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 1:57:52 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 11:10:37 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Eric, myself, and many other MG pilots posting here have extensive cross country experience in both "pure" and motorgliders. I've been flying "pure" gliders since 1968 and motorgliders since 2000. Bob, you have no experience with motorgliders other

than watching them from afar. So yes, we continue to ignore your uninformed and ignorant *opinion*. But this post makes clearer, perhaps, the real motivation: tow fees. That is at least rational. A motorglider is not less expensive than paying for tows -
rather it costs more than all the tows you are ever likely to get - but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket. And yes, the places I fly all charge a motorglider launch fee to cover the facilities, between $12 and $20 per launch. Tie down,
trailer parking, oxygen, etc. are the same for either. Having seen the financials for my home field, a tow doesn't net the FBO $20 after paying for fuel, towplane maintenance, tow pilot, etc. In fact the private tows are a net loser, and are really just
provided as a service, subsidized by rides and instruction.

Mr. Fitch, you need to get a grip on yourself and calm down, you should be more polite when you disagree with someone. For your information I have flown motorgliders both here in the US and abroad. I was introduced to motorgliders many years prior to

your entry into the category. Secondly I do not profit from the towplane, I have personally bought three Pawnee's for the purpose of starting and developing a club, which I have and we have been very successful, probably the most successful club in the
US since our inception to the sport five years ago, prior to that I flew off my own strip. The towplane engine was new in 2021, I paid for it, I paid for all maintenance and repairs, and any other associated expenses to help our club. I could continue
with what I have done for soaring, but I will not ask you what you have done. Have a good evening. Old Bob, The Purist

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 4:34:27 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 11:37:32 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 5/4/2022 4:27 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
's getting better!

No Bum, keep it going, some of the mg comments have been funnier than Saturday Night Live with Eddie Murphy. I will make one comment on the MG guys remarks, your included, why haven't you mg guys been doing longer and better flights? Seems like

a no brainer with that teat that you have to suck if you get low! Oh, I almost forgot Mr. Bum, I might just be your tow pilot soon if things work out, please don't be scared. Old Bob, The Purist

You've been telling us pilots use motorgliders to go farther and faster than they would in
a "pure" glider, and how they plan and fly so differently than the "pure" glider pilots.
But now it seems you've noticed that's not true, and are wondering why. I'm glad you've
finally realized the two groups of pilots are not nearly as different as you thought. If
you want to meet pilots that really do plan and fly differently from each other, talk to
1-26 pilots and Nimbus 3 pilots!

Once again: Most pilots buy a motorglider for convenience, not speed and distance. You
know, getting launched where there aren't any towplanes, avoiding that hour-long wait in
the towline, reliably getting home on time, that kind of thing. Convenience, Bob,
Convenience!
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, I have flown with MG pilots, there is more to MG's than convenience, and you still ignore the opinion that there is a difference between the two paradigms. Yes, I do like enlightening you MG and sustainer guys, your skewed justification and

lack of acknowledging the differences amuses me, I still laugh! Now at least the sustainer guys contribute to the club when they are towed, 40-60 bucks helps the club with the overall operating expenses. Does you club charge the self launch pilot for use
of the field or do they just get in their self launch and depart and go back home for an early dinner and pack their ship away? I think that or club will start charging a field use for self launch gliders, say 15 bucks for each self launch departure,
after all we must pay the rent and fuel bill for the tractor that mows the strip. Now I know that , "The Bum", is going to get bent out of shape on this idea, but if he comes to Vero I will pay the fee for his use of the field. Old Bob, The Purist

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:29:26 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Bob,
Reread my response - I was perfectly polite (and calm). You must be confusing me with someone else :). And you were the one that brought up the lost tow fees, not me. In fact, I bought a towplane for our glider operation, after I already had a

motorglider and always self launched.

Ramy,
I am aware that Bob is simply trolling for controversy, but he is a bit like a train wreck - hard to look away.
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 1:57:52 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 11:10:37 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Eric, myself, and many other MG pilots posting here have extensive cross country experience in both "pure" and motorgliders. I've been flying "pure" gliders since 1968 and motorgliders since 2000. Bob, you have no experience with motorgliders other

than watching them from afar. So yes, we continue to ignore your uninformed and ignorant *opinion*. But this post makes clearer, perhaps, the real motivation: tow fees. That is at least rational. A motorglider is not less expensive than paying for tows -
rather it costs more than all the tows you are ever likely to get - but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket. And yes, the places I fly all charge a motorglider launch fee to cover the facilities, between $12 and $20 per launch. Tie down,
trailer parking, oxygen, etc. are the same for either. Having seen the financials for my home field, a tow doesn't net the FBO $20 after paying for fuel, towplane maintenance, tow pilot, etc. In fact the private tows are a net loser, and are really just
provided as a service, subsidized by rides and instruction.

Mr. Fitch, you need to get a grip on yourself and calm down, you should be more polite when you disagree with someone. For your information I have flown motorgliders both here in the US and abroad. I was introduced to motorgliders many years prior to

your entry into the category. Secondly I do not profit from the towplane, I have personally bought three Pawnee's for the purpose of starting and developing a club, which I have and we have been very successful, probably the most successful club in the
US since our inception to the sport five years ago, prior to that I flew off my own strip. The towplane engine was new in 2021, I paid for it, I paid for all maintenance and repairs, and any other associated expenses to help our club. I could continue
with what I have done for soaring, but I will not ask you what you have done. Have a good evening. Old Bob, The Purist

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 4:34:27 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 11:37:32 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 5/4/2022 4:27 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
's getting better!

No Bum, keep it going, some of the mg comments have been funnier than Saturday Night Live with Eddie Murphy. I will make one comment on the MG guys remarks, your included, why haven't you mg guys been doing longer and better flights? Seems

like a no brainer with that teat that you have to suck if you get low! Oh, I almost forgot Mr. Bum, I might just be your tow pilot soon if things work out, please don't be scared. Old Bob, The Purist

You've been telling us pilots use motorgliders to go farther and faster than they would in
a "pure" glider, and how they plan and fly so differently than the "pure" glider pilots.
But now it seems you've noticed that's not true, and are wondering why. I'm glad you've
finally realized the two groups of pilots are not nearly as different as you thought. If
you want to meet pilots that really do plan and fly differently from each other, talk to
1-26 pilots and Nimbus 3 pilots!

Once again: Most pilots buy a motorglider for convenience, not speed and distance. You
know, getting launched where there aren't any towplanes, avoiding that hour-long wait in
the towline, reliably getting home on time, that kind of thing. Convenience, Bob,
Convenience!
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, I have flown with MG pilots, there is more to MG's than convenience, and you still ignore the opinion that there is a difference between the two paradigms. Yes, I do like enlightening you MG and sustainer guys, your skewed justification and

lack of acknowledging the differences amuses me, I still laugh! Now at least the sustainer guys contribute to the club when they are towed, 40-60 bucks helps the club with the overall operating expenses. Does you club charge the self launch pilot for use
of the field or do they just get in their self launch and depart and go back home for an early dinner and pack their ship away? I think that or club will start charging a field use for self launch gliders, say 15 bucks for each self launch departure,
after all we must pay the rent and fuel bill for the tractor that mows the strip. Now I know that , "The Bum", is going to get bent out of shape on this idea, but if he comes to Vero I will pay the fee for his use of the field. Old Bob, The Purist
Mr. Fitch, you are the one that needs to re-read your post, you made reference about money going into Bob's pocket, maybe you are forgetting a few things. Old Bob, The Purist

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

The title of this thread is most accurate. There is absolutely NO "thread drift."

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Reread it again. What I said was "but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket". And again, you originally complained about the lack of tow fees charged to motorgliders, not me.

On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 2:33:36 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:29:26 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Bob,
Reread my response - I was perfectly polite (and calm). You must be confusing me with someone else :). And you were the one that brought up the lost tow fees, not me. In fact, I bought a towplane for our glider operation, after I already had a

motorglider and always self launched.

Ramy,
I am aware that Bob is simply trolling for controversy, but he is a bit like a train wreck - hard to look away.
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 1:57:52 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 11:10:37 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Eric, myself, and many other MG pilots posting here have extensive cross country experience in both "pure" and motorgliders. I've been flying "pure" gliders since 1968 and motorgliders since 2000. Bob, you have no experience with motorgliders

other than watching them from afar. So yes, we continue to ignore your uninformed and ignorant *opinion*. But this post makes clearer, perhaps, the real motivation: tow fees. That is at least rational. A motorglider is not less expensive than paying for
tows - rather it costs more than all the tows you are ever likely to get - but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket. And yes, the places I fly all charge a motorglider launch fee to cover the facilities, between $12 and $20 per launch.
Tie down, trailer parking, oxygen, etc. are the same for either. Having seen the financials for my home field, a tow doesn't net the FBO $20 after paying for fuel, towplane maintenance, tow pilot, etc. In fact the private tows are a net loser, and are
really just provided as a service, subsidized by rides and instruction.

Mr. Fitch, you need to get a grip on yourself and calm down, you should be more polite when you disagree with someone. For your information I have flown motorgliders both here in the US and abroad. I was introduced to motorgliders many years prior

to your entry into the category. Secondly I do not profit from the towplane, I have personally bought three Pawnee's for the purpose of starting and developing a club, which I have and we have been very successful, probably the most successful club in
the US since our inception to the sport five years ago, prior to that I flew off my own strip. The towplane engine was new in 2021, I paid for it, I paid for all maintenance and repairs, and any other associated expenses to help our club. I could
continue with what I have done for soaring, but I will not ask you what you have done. Have a good evening. Old Bob, The Purist

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 4:34:27 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 11:37:32 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 5/4/2022 4:27 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
's getting better!

No Bum, keep it going, some of the mg comments have been funnier than Saturday Night Live with Eddie Murphy. I will make one comment on the MG guys remarks, your included, why haven't you mg guys been doing longer and better flights? Seems

like a no brainer with that teat that you have to suck if you get low! Oh, I almost forgot Mr. Bum, I might just be your tow pilot soon if things work out, please don't be scared. Old Bob, The Purist

You've been telling us pilots use motorgliders to go farther and faster than they would in
a "pure" glider, and how they plan and fly so differently than the "pure" glider pilots.
But now it seems you've noticed that's not true, and are wondering why. I'm glad you've
finally realized the two groups of pilots are not nearly as different as you thought. If
you want to meet pilots that really do plan and fly differently from each other, talk to
1-26 pilots and Nimbus 3 pilots!

Once again: Most pilots buy a motorglider for convenience, not speed and distance. You
know, getting launched where there aren't any towplanes, avoiding that hour-long wait in
the towline, reliably getting home on time, that kind of thing. Convenience, Bob,
Convenience!
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, I have flown with MG pilots, there is more to MG's than convenience, and you still ignore the opinion that there is a difference between the two paradigms. Yes, I do like enlightening you MG and sustainer guys, your skewed justification

and lack of acknowledging the differences amuses me, I still laugh! Now at least the sustainer guys contribute to the club when they are towed, 40-60 bucks helps the club with the overall operating expenses. Does you club charge the self launch pilot for
use of the field or do they just get in their self launch and depart and go back home for an early dinner and pack their ship away? I think that or club will start charging a field use for self launch gliders, say 15 bucks for each self launch departure,
after all we must pay the rent and fuel bill for the tractor that mows the strip. Now I know that , "The Bum", is going to get bent out of shape on this idea, but if he comes to Vero I will pay the fee for his use of the field. Old Bob, The Purist

Mr. Fitch, you are the one that needs to re-read your post, you made reference about money going into Bob's pocket, maybe you are forgetting a few things. Old Bob, The Purist

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 1:55:21 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Reread it again. What I said was "but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket". And again, you originally complained about the lack of tow fees charged to motorgliders, not me.
On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 2:33:36 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:29:26 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Bob,
Reread my response - I was perfectly polite (and calm). You must be confusing me with someone else :). And you were the one that brought up the lost tow fees, not me. In fact, I bought a towplane for our glider operation, after I already had a

motorglider and always self launched.

Ramy,
I am aware that Bob is simply trolling for controversy, but he is a bit like a train wreck - hard to look away.
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 1:57:52 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 11:10:37 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Eric, myself, and many other MG pilots posting here have extensive cross country experience in both "pure" and motorgliders. I've been flying "pure" gliders since 1968 and motorgliders since 2000. Bob, you have no experience with motorgliders

other than watching them from afar. So yes, we continue to ignore your uninformed and ignorant *opinion*. But this post makes clearer, perhaps, the real motivation: tow fees. That is at least rational. A motorglider is not less expensive than paying for
tows - rather it costs more than all the tows you are ever likely to get - but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket. And yes, the places I fly all charge a motorglider launch fee to cover the facilities, between $12 and $20 per launch.
Tie down, trailer parking, oxygen, etc. are the same for either. Having seen the financials for my home field, a tow doesn't net the FBO $20 after paying for fuel, towplane maintenance, tow pilot, etc. In fact the private tows are a net loser, and are
really just provided as a service, subsidized by rides and instruction.

Mr. Fitch, you need to get a grip on yourself and calm down, you should be more polite when you disagree with someone. For your information I have flown motorgliders both here in the US and abroad. I was introduced to motorgliders many years

prior to your entry into the category. Secondly I do not profit from the towplane, I have personally bought three Pawnee's for the purpose of starting and developing a club, which I have and we have been very successful, probably the most successful club
in the US since our inception to the sport five years ago, prior to that I flew off my own strip. The towplane engine was new in 2021, I paid for it, I paid for all maintenance and repairs, and any other associated expenses to help our club. I could
continue with what I have done for soaring, but I will not ask you what you have done. Have a good evening. Old Bob, The Purist

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 4:34:27 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 11:37:32 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 5/4/2022 4:27 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
's getting better!

No Bum, keep it going, some of the mg comments have been funnier than Saturday Night Live with Eddie Murphy. I will make one comment on the MG guys remarks, your included, why haven't you mg guys been doing longer and better flights?

Seems like a no brainer with that teat that you have to suck if you get low! Oh, I almost forgot Mr. Bum, I might just be your tow pilot soon if things work out, please don't be scared. Old Bob, The Purist

You've been telling us pilots use motorgliders to go farther and faster than they would in
a "pure" glider, and how they plan and fly so differently than the "pure" glider pilots.
But now it seems you've noticed that's not true, and are wondering why. I'm glad you've
finally realized the two groups of pilots are not nearly as different as you thought. If
you want to meet pilots that really do plan and fly differently from each other, talk to
1-26 pilots and Nimbus 3 pilots!

Once again: Most pilots buy a motorglider for convenience, not speed and distance. You
know, getting launched where there aren't any towplanes, avoiding that hour-long wait in
the towline, reliably getting home on time, that kind of thing. Convenience, Bob,
Convenience!
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, I have flown with MG pilots, there is more to MG's than convenience, and you still ignore the opinion that there is a difference between the two paradigms. Yes, I do like enlightening you MG and sustainer guys, your skewed justification

and lack of acknowledging the differences amuses me, I still laugh! Now at least the sustainer guys contribute to the club when they are towed, 40-60 bucks helps the club with the overall operating expenses. Does you club charge the self launch pilot for
use of the field or do they just get in their self launch and depart and go back home for an early dinner and pack their ship away? I think that or club will start charging a field use for self launch gliders, say 15 bucks for each self launch departure,
after all we must pay the rent and fuel bill for the tractor that mows the strip. Now I know that , "The Bum", is going to get bent out of shape on this idea, but if he comes to Vero I will pay the fee for his use of the field. Old Bob, The Purist

Mr. Fitch, you are the one that needs to re-read your post, you made reference about money going into Bob's pocket, maybe you are forgetting a few things. Old Bob, The Purist

Mr Fitch, your implications speak for themselves. Old Bob, The Purist

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 1:20:18 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 1:55:21 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Reread it again. What I said was "but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket". And again, you originally complained about the lack of tow fees charged to motorgliders, not me.
On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 2:33:36 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:29:26 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Bob,
Reread my response - I was perfectly polite (and calm). You must be confusing me with someone else :). And you were the one that brought up the lost tow fees, not me. In fact, I bought a towplane for our glider operation, after I already had a

motorglider and always self launched.

Ramy,
I am aware that Bob is simply trolling for controversy, but he is a bit like a train wreck - hard to look away.
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 1:57:52 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 11:10:37 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Eric, myself, and many other MG pilots posting here have extensive cross country experience in both "pure" and motorgliders. I've been flying "pure" gliders since 1968 and motorgliders since 2000. Bob, you have no experience with motorgliders

other than watching them from afar. So yes, we continue to ignore your uninformed and ignorant *opinion*. But this post makes clearer, perhaps, the real motivation: tow fees. That is at least rational. A motorglider is not less expensive than paying for
tows - rather it costs more than all the tows you are ever likely to get - but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket. And yes, the places I fly all charge a motorglider launch fee to cover the facilities, between $12 and $20 per launch.
Tie down, trailer parking, oxygen, etc. are the same for either. Having seen the financials for my home field, a tow doesn't net the FBO $20 after paying for fuel, towplane maintenance, tow pilot, etc. In fact the private tows are a net loser, and are
really just provided as a service, subsidized by rides and instruction.

Mr. Fitch, you need to get a grip on yourself and calm down, you should be more polite when you disagree with someone. For your information I have flown motorgliders both here in the US and abroad. I was introduced to motorgliders many years

prior to your entry into the category. Secondly I do not profit from the towplane, I have personally bought three Pawnee's for the purpose of starting and developing a club, which I have and we have been very successful, probably the most successful club
in the US since our inception to the sport five years ago, prior to that I flew off my own strip. The towplane engine was new in 2021, I paid for it, I paid for all maintenance and repairs, and any other associated expenses to help our club. I could
continue with what I have done for soaring, but I will not ask you what you have done. Have a good evening. Old Bob, The Purist

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 4:34:27 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 11:37:32 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 5/4/2022 4:27 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
's getting better!

No Bum, keep it going, some of the mg comments have been funnier than Saturday Night Live with Eddie Murphy. I will make one comment on the MG guys remarks, your included, why haven't you mg guys been doing longer and better flights?

Seems like a no brainer with that teat that you have to suck if you get low! Oh, I almost forgot Mr. Bum, I might just be your tow pilot soon if things work out, please don't be scared. Old Bob, The Purist

You've been telling us pilots use motorgliders to go farther and faster than they would in
a "pure" glider, and how they plan and fly so differently than the "pure" glider pilots.
But now it seems you've noticed that's not true, and are wondering why. I'm glad you've
finally realized the two groups of pilots are not nearly as different as you thought. If
you want to meet pilots that really do plan and fly differently from each other, talk to
1-26 pilots and Nimbus 3 pilots!

Once again: Most pilots buy a motorglider for convenience, not speed and distance. You
know, getting launched where there aren't any towplanes, avoiding that hour-long wait in
the towline, reliably getting home on time, that kind of thing. Convenience, Bob,
Convenience!
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, I have flown with MG pilots, there is more to MG's than convenience, and you still ignore the opinion that there is a difference between the two paradigms. Yes, I do like enlightening you MG and sustainer guys, your skewed

justification and lack of acknowledging the differences amuses me, I still laugh! Now at least the sustainer guys contribute to the club when they are towed, 40-60 bucks helps the club with the overall operating expenses. Does you club charge the self
launch pilot for use of the field or do they just get in their self launch and depart and go back home for an early dinner and pack their ship away? I think that or club will start charging a field use for self launch gliders, say 15 bucks for each self
launch departure, after all we must pay the rent and fuel bill for the tractor that mows the strip. Now I know that , "The Bum", is going to get bent out of shape on this idea, but if he comes to Vero I will pay the fee for his use of the field. Old Bob,
The Purist

Mr. Fitch, you are the one that needs to re-read your post, you made reference about money going into Bob's pocket, maybe you are forgetting a few things. Old Bob, The Purist

Mr Fitch, your implications speak for themselves. Old Bob, The Purist

All this crap from Not So Purist Bobby has NOTHING to do with the "advantages" that motorglider pilots have over gravity gliders - it is ALL ABOUT MONEY! Bobby views motorgliders as a THREAT to his way of doing business, pure (so to speak) and simple.
They don't buy tows, which is what he sells. He can't say that, so he comes up with this other bullshit to defame motorglider pilots. Bobby: GROW UP! Gravity gliders aren't going away and their owners will still need your tows.

Tom

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

You do realize that the only real pilots are helicopter pilots and the only real flying machine is a helicopter.

And, the title of this useless thread continues to set new records for truth. Not the responses, just the title.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

You do realize that the only real pilots are helicopter pilots and the only real flying machine is a helicopter. And remember, DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT. (Seaplanes are nice too )

Walt Connelly
Former Helicopter Pilot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 5:29:47 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:

You do realize that the only real pilots are helicopter pilots and the only real flying machine is a helicopter. And remember, DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT. (Seaplanes are nice too )

Walt Connelly
Former Helicopter Pilot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot

You mean that a helicopter is the only machine that wants to fly apart.

Tom

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 2:01:56 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:

On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 5:29:47 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:

You do realize that the only real pilots are helicopter pilots and the only real flying machine is a helicopter. And remember, DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT. (Seaplanes are nice too )

Walt Connelly
Former Helicopter Pilot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot

You mean that a helicopter is the only machine that wants to fly apart.

Tom

2G, hey dumbass, more motorglider engines fall apart vs helicopter.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 3:17:44 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 2:01:56 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:

On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 5:29:47 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:

You do realize that the only real pilots are helicopter pilots and the only real flying machine is a helicopter. And remember, DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT. (Seaplanes are nice too )

Walt Connelly
Former Helicopter Pilot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot

You mean that a helicopter is the only machine that wants to fly apart.

Tom

2G, hey dumbass, more motorglider engines fall apart vs helicopter.

My, my - are we getting TESTY now, Not So Purist Bobby?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

The original Airmail Pilots looked down on lesser men who flew in enclosed cabins.

https://dailytimewaster.blogspot.com/2017/05/decked-out-in-winter-flight-gear.html

Eventually those that survived were won over.

I for one am glad that time has brought us improvements and have no problem with
those who want to fly differently but am glad other options are available.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 9:36:28 PM UTC-4, richard....@gmail.com wrote:

The original Airmail Pilots looked down on lesser men who flew in enclosed cabins.

https://dailytimewaster.blogspot.com/2017/05/decked-out-in-winter-flight-gear.html

Eventually those that survived were won over.

I for one am glad that time has brought us improvements and have no problem with
those who want to fly differently but am glad other options are available.

Richard, thanks for the alternative point of view, greatly appreciated and accepted. My major theory is that motorglider pilots are not firmly fixed, AKA, insecure. They seem not to be very confident on their abilities to react under pressure, that being,
react under pressure of landing out. I guess you could conclude that they are expressing unconfident traits, those that you would rather keep your distance during a real crisis. Now I know some of my MG friends are really going to get upset over this
reply, but what else would you expect. Eric and, "The Bum", really get bent out of shape with my evaluation of MG pilots, yet they continue to explain how wonderful motorgliding is. Old Bob, The Purist

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 6:01:48 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 9:36:28 PM UTC-4, richard....@gmail.com wrote:

The original Airmail Pilots looked down on lesser men who flew in enclosed cabins.

https://dailytimewaster.blogspot.com/2017/05/decked-out-in-winter-flight-gear.html

Eventually those that survived were won over.

I for one am glad that time has brought us improvements and have no problem with
those who want to fly differently but am glad other options are available.

Richard, thanks for the alternative point of view, greatly appreciated and accepted. My major theory is that motorglider pilots are not firmly fixed, AKA, insecure. They seem not to be very confident on their abilities to react under pressure, that

being, react under pressure of landing out. I guess you could conclude that they are expressing unconfident traits, those that you would rather keep your distance during a real crisis. Now I know some of my MG friends are really going to get upset over
this reply, but what else would you expect. Eric and, "The Bum", really get bent out of shape with my evaluation of MG pilots, yet they continue to explain how wonderful motorgliding is. Old Bob, The Purist

Well, we all know that Bobby IS NOT a purist at all, and knows nothing about motorgliders, as he has confirmed time and time again. What he is is a capitalist that wants to suck as much money as possible out of the pockets of his like-minded followers.
Now, if I had a gravity glider, I, too, would be glad that Bobby is providing tows in his gas guzzling Pawnee, even if it is far less environmentally friendly way to launch than a motorglider.

Tom

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 5/10/2022 6:01 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

Eric and, "The Bum", really get bent out of shape with my evaluation of MG pilots, yet they continue to explain how wonderful motorgliding is. Old Bob, The Purist

You don't evaluate MG pilots, but simply paint them all with the same brush. A real
evaluation would find a wide variety of people flying motorgliders, just like the wide
variety that fly towed gliders. This negativity may dissuade someone from considering a
motorglider, even though it may benefit them. That's unfortunate, but not unsafe.

My main concern is your frequent "get out of a jam button" remark, as if motorgliders made
soaring safer. That kind of comment might induce a pilot to get a motorglider, hoping it
will make him safer, and allow him to fly cross-country without the stress he normally
feels. And that, I think, is unsafe.

BTW, it's SOARING that is wonderful, not "motorgliding". Motorgliders are used to pursue
soaring, as are towplanes and winches. Please stop dividing us by how we launch and
retrieve ourselves. Spend your energy promoting soaring instead.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Are "Bob the Purist" and "Lennie the Lurker" one and the same?

bumper

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 1:33:16 AM UTC-4, bumper wrote:

Are "Bob the Purist" and "Lennie the Lurker" one and the same?

bumper

Bumper, I am not Lennie the Lurker, unlike what Eric says I enjoy all types of soaring, even motorgliding, but I know and understand that there is difference between pure sailplanes and motorgliders, something that MG pilots hardly ever admit. I am going
to make a confession someday that will make them go ballistic, just not at this time. I am a PURIST glider flier, my wife is a Lady Purist glider flier and we both have identical views about the differences in MG"s and Pure gliders. I better get going,
gotta get the boat in the water and head out to the deep blue, hope to catch a few Wahoo for dinner tonight. Now I do not fish from a Hobie Cat, that would be a pure form of fishing, rather I fire up the boat and go full throttle with those 900 hp of
engines sucking gas. Old Bob, The Purist

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Bob, I made no implications, simply paraphrased what you said directly: that motorgliders were a threat to your revenue. You then go on to complain about the 3 towplanes and engines for them you have had to buy. To the extent that your clientele are
motorgliders, they are saving you from that expense and headache. I've asked directly several times, "how much experience do you have in cross country flight in a motorglider?" I've never received an answer, which is an answer in itself. Just tooling
around the gliderport for a sightseeing flight doesn't count. It does not force you to make the planning and decisions required of cross country. I'll ask again, expecting no answer: How much experience in a motorglider cross country? How many 300Ks,
500Ks, 1000Ks? Without that, you are forming your opinions on ignorance and faith - which Ambrose Bierce defined as "Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." That pretty well sums up the OP.

On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 1:20:18 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 1:55:21 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Reread it again. What I said was "but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket". And again, you originally complained about the lack of tow fees charged to motorgliders, not me.
On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 2:33:36 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:29:26 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Bob,
Reread my response - I was perfectly polite (and calm). You must be confusing me with someone else :). And you were the one that brought up the lost tow fees, not me. In fact, I bought a towplane for our glider operation, after I already had a

motorglider and always self launched.

Ramy,
I am aware that Bob is simply trolling for controversy, but he is a bit like a train wreck - hard to look away.
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 1:57:52 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 11:10:37 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Eric, myself, and many other MG pilots posting here have extensive cross country experience in both "pure" and motorgliders. I've been flying "pure" gliders since 1968 and motorgliders since 2000. Bob, you have no experience with motorgliders

other than watching them from afar. So yes, we continue to ignore your uninformed and ignorant *opinion*. But this post makes clearer, perhaps, the real motivation: tow fees. That is at least rational. A motorglider is not less expensive than paying for
tows - rather it costs more than all the tows you are ever likely to get - but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket. And yes, the places I fly all charge a motorglider launch fee to cover the facilities, between $12 and $20 per launch.
Tie down, trailer parking, oxygen, etc. are the same for either. Having seen the financials for my home field, a tow doesn't net the FBO $20 after paying for fuel, towplane maintenance, tow pilot, etc. In fact the private tows are a net loser, and are
really just provided as a service, subsidized by rides and instruction.

Mr. Fitch, you need to get a grip on yourself and calm down, you should be more polite when you disagree with someone. For your information I have flown motorgliders both here in the US and abroad. I was introduced to motorgliders many years

prior to your entry into the category. Secondly I do not profit from the towplane, I have personally bought three Pawnee's for the purpose of starting and developing a club, which I have and we have been very successful, probably the most successful club
in the US since our inception to the sport five years ago, prior to that I flew off my own strip. The towplane engine was new in 2021, I paid for it, I paid for all maintenance and repairs, and any other associated expenses to help our club. I could
continue with what I have done for soaring, but I will not ask you what you have done. Have a good evening. Old Bob, The Purist

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 4:34:27 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 11:37:32 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 5/4/2022 4:27 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
's getting better!

No Bum, keep it going, some of the mg comments have been funnier than Saturday Night Live with Eddie Murphy. I will make one comment on the MG guys remarks, your included, why haven't you mg guys been doing longer and better flights?

Seems like a no brainer with that teat that you have to suck if you get low! Oh, I almost forgot Mr. Bum, I might just be your tow pilot soon if things work out, please don't be scared. Old Bob, The Purist

You've been telling us pilots use motorgliders to go farther and faster than they would in
a "pure" glider, and how they plan and fly so differently than the "pure" glider pilots.
But now it seems you've noticed that's not true, and are wondering why. I'm glad you've
finally realized the two groups of pilots are not nearly as different as you thought. If
you want to meet pilots that really do plan and fly differently from each other, talk to
1-26 pilots and Nimbus 3 pilots!

Once again: Most pilots buy a motorglider for convenience, not speed and distance. You
know, getting launched where there aren't any towplanes, avoiding that hour-long wait in
the towline, reliably getting home on time, that kind of thing. Convenience, Bob,
Convenience!
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, I have flown with MG pilots, there is more to MG's than convenience, and you still ignore the opinion that there is a difference between the two paradigms. Yes, I do like enlightening you MG and sustainer guys, your skewed

justification and lack of acknowledging the differences amuses me, I still laugh! Now at least the sustainer guys contribute to the club when they are towed, 40-60 bucks helps the club with the overall operating expenses. Does you club charge the self
launch pilot for use of the field or do they just get in their self launch and depart and go back home for an early dinner and pack their ship away? I think that or club will start charging a field use for self launch gliders, say 15 bucks for each self
launch departure, after all we must pay the rent and fuel bill for the tractor that mows the strip. Now I know that , "The Bum", is going to get bent out of shape on this idea, but if he comes to Vero I will pay the fee for his use of the field. Old Bob,
The Purist

Mr. Fitch, you are the one that needs to re-read your post, you made reference about money going into Bob's pocket, maybe you are forgetting a few things. Old Bob, The Purist

Mr Fitch, your implications speak for themselves. Old Bob, The Purist

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

How long are you guys going to beat on this dead horse?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 12:09:22 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Bob, I made no implications, simply paraphrased what you said directly: that motorgliders were a threat to your revenue. You then go on to complain about the 3 towplanes and engines for them you have had to buy. To the extent that your clientele are

motorgliders, they are saving you from that expense and headache. I've asked directly several times, "how much experience do you have in cross country flight in a motorglider?" I've never received an answer, which is an answer in itself. Just tooling
around the gliderport for a sightseeing flight doesn't count. It does not force you to make the planning and decisions required of cross country. I'll ask again, expecting no answer: How much experience in a motorglider cross country? How many 300Ks,
500Ks, 1000Ks? Without that, you are forming your opinions on ignorance and faith - which Ambrose Bierce defined as "Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." That pretty well sums up the OP.

On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 1:20:18 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 1:55:21 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Reread it again. What I said was "but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket". And again, you originally complained about the lack of tow fees charged to motorgliders, not me.
On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 2:33:36 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:29:26 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Bob,
Reread my response - I was perfectly polite (and calm). You must be confusing me with someone else :). And you were the one that brought up the lost tow fees, not me. In fact, I bought a towplane for our glider operation, after I already had a

motorglider and always self launched.

Ramy,
I am aware that Bob is simply trolling for controversy, but he is a bit like a train wreck - hard to look away.
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 1:57:52 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 11:10:37 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Eric, myself, and many other MG pilots posting here have extensive cross country experience in both "pure" and motorgliders. I've been flying "pure" gliders since 1968 and motorgliders since 2000. Bob, you have no experience with

motorgliders other than watching them from afar. So yes, we continue to ignore your uninformed and ignorant *opinion*. But this post makes clearer, perhaps, the real motivation: tow fees. That is at least rational. A motorglider is not less expensive
than paying for tows - rather it costs more than all the tows you are ever likely to get - but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket. And yes, the places I fly all charge a motorglider launch fee to cover the facilities, between $12 and $
20 per launch. Tie down, trailer parking, oxygen, etc. are the same for either. Having seen the financials for my home field, a tow doesn't net the FBO $20 after paying for fuel, towplane maintenance, tow pilot, etc. In fact the private tows are a net
loser, and are really just provided as a service, subsidized by rides and instruction.

Mr. Fitch, you need to get a grip on yourself and calm down, you should be more polite when you disagree with someone. For your information I have flown motorgliders both here in the US and abroad. I was introduced to motorgliders many years

prior to your entry into the category. Secondly I do not profit from the towplane, I have personally bought three Pawnee's for the purpose of starting and developing a club, which I have and we have been very successful, probably the most successful club
in the US since our inception to the sport five years ago, prior to that I flew off my own strip. The towplane engine was new in 2021, I paid for it, I paid for all maintenance and repairs, and any other associated expenses to help our club. I could
continue with what I have done for soaring, but I will not ask you what you have done. Have a good evening. Old Bob, The Purist

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 4:34:27 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 11:37:32 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 5/4/2022 4:27 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
's getting better!

No Bum, keep it going, some of the mg comments have been funnier than Saturday Night Live with Eddie Murphy. I will make one comment on the MG guys remarks, your included, why haven't you mg guys been doing longer and better flights?

Seems like a no brainer with that teat that you have to suck if you get low! Oh, I almost forgot Mr. Bum, I might just be your tow pilot soon if things work out, please don't be scared. Old Bob, The Purist

You've been telling us pilots use motorgliders to go farther and faster than they would in
a "pure" glider, and how they plan and fly so differently than the "pure" glider pilots.
But now it seems you've noticed that's not true, and are wondering why. I'm glad you've
finally realized the two groups of pilots are not nearly as different as you thought. If
you want to meet pilots that really do plan and fly differently from each other, talk to
1-26 pilots and Nimbus 3 pilots!

Once again: Most pilots buy a motorglider for convenience, not speed and distance. You
know, getting launched where there aren't any towplanes, avoiding that hour-long wait in
the towline, reliably getting home on time, that kind of thing. Convenience, Bob,
Convenience!
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, I have flown with MG pilots, there is more to MG's than convenience, and you still ignore the opinion that there is a difference between the two paradigms. Yes, I do like enlightening you MG and sustainer guys, your skewed

justification and lack of acknowledging the differences amuses me, I still laugh! Now at least the sustainer guys contribute to the club when they are towed, 40-60 bucks helps the club with the overall operating expenses. Does you club charge the self
launch pilot for use of the field or do they just get in their self launch and depart and go back home for an early dinner and pack their ship away? I think that or club will start charging a field use for self launch gliders, say 15 bucks for each self
launch departure, after all we must pay the rent and fuel bill for the tractor that mows the strip. Now I know that , "The Bum", is going to get bent out of shape on this idea, but if he comes to Vero I will pay the fee for his use of the field. Old Bob,
The Purist

Mr. Fitch, you are the one that needs to re-read your post, you made reference about money going into Bob's pocket, maybe you are forgetting a few things. Old Bob, The Purist

Mr Fitch, your implications speak for themselves. Old Bob, The Purist

Mr. Fitch, I have never stated as you have implied anything about tow money being a threat to my revenue On May5th I asked the question about motorgliders paying a fee for use of the field, maybe you should go back and do your homework prior to making
statements about people that are not true. I will make a bet with you, OK? If I made the remark as you have stated I will take a RAS fine and go directly to the suspension arena for 60 days. If you cannot produce the comment as you described, "A Threat
To MY Revenue", then you will go directly to RAS jail for 60 days, deal? Frankly speaking Mr. Fitch, you are delusional. Old Bob, The Purist

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 6:09:05 PM UTC-7, Mark Mocho wrote:

How long are you guys going to beat on this dead horse?

I'm starting to enjoy it...

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I'm starting to enjoy it...

Said the frog as the water started to get warm......

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 5:28:49 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 12:09:22 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Bob, I made no implications, simply paraphrased what you said directly: that motorgliders were a threat to your revenue. You then go on to complain about the 3 towplanes and engines for them you have had to buy. To the extent that your clientele are

motorgliders, they are saving you from that expense and headache. I've asked directly several times, "how much experience do you have in cross country flight in a motorglider?" I've never received an answer, which is an answer in itself. Just tooling
around the gliderport for a sightseeing flight doesn't count. It does not force you to make the planning and decisions required of cross country. I'll ask again, expecting no answer: How much experience in a motorglider cross country? How many 300Ks,
500Ks, 1000Ks? Without that, you are forming your opinions on ignorance and faith - which Ambrose Bierce defined as "Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." That pretty well sums up the OP.

On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 1:20:18 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 1:55:21 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Reread it again. What I said was "but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket". And again, you originally complained about the lack of tow fees charged to motorgliders, not me.
On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 2:33:36 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:29:26 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Bob,
Reread my response - I was perfectly polite (and calm). You must be confusing me with someone else :). And you were the one that brought up the lost tow fees, not me. In fact, I bought a towplane for our glider operation, after I already had

a motorglider and always self launched.

Ramy,
I am aware that Bob is simply trolling for controversy, but he is a bit like a train wreck - hard to look away.
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 1:57:52 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 11:10:37 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Eric, myself, and many other MG pilots posting here have extensive cross country experience in both "pure" and motorgliders. I've been flying "pure" gliders since 1968 and motorgliders since 2000. Bob, you have no experience with

motorgliders other than watching them from afar. So yes, we continue to ignore your uninformed and ignorant *opinion*. But this post makes clearer, perhaps, the real motivation: tow fees. That is at least rational. A motorglider is not less expensive
than paying for tows - rather it costs more than all the tows you are ever likely to get - but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket. And yes, the places I fly all charge a motorglider launch fee to cover the facilities, between $12 and $
20 per launch. Tie down, trailer parking, oxygen, etc. are the same for either. Having seen the financials for my home field, a tow doesn't net the FBO $20 after paying for fuel, towplane maintenance, tow pilot, etc. In fact the private tows are a net
loser, and are really just provided as a service, subsidized by rides and instruction.

Mr. Fitch, you need to get a grip on yourself and calm down, you should be more polite when you disagree with someone. For your information I have flown motorgliders both here in the US and abroad. I was introduced to motorgliders many

years prior to your entry into the category. Secondly I do not profit from the towplane, I have personally bought three Pawnee's for the purpose of starting and developing a club, which I have and we have been very successful, probably the most
successful club in the US since our inception to the sport five years ago, prior to that I flew off my own strip. The towplane engine was new in 2021, I paid for it, I paid for all maintenance and repairs, and any other associated expenses to help our
club. I could continue with what I have done for soaring, but I will not ask you what you have done. Have a good evening. Old Bob, The Purist

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 4:34:27 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 11:37:32 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 5/4/2022 4:27 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
's getting better!

No Bum, keep it going, some of the mg comments have been funnier than Saturday Night Live with Eddie Murphy. I will make one comment on the MG guys remarks, your included, why haven't you mg guys been doing longer and better flights?

Seems like a no brainer with that teat that you have to suck if you get low! Oh, I almost forgot Mr. Bum, I might just be your tow pilot soon if things work out, please don't be scared. Old Bob, The Purist

You've been telling us pilots use motorgliders to go farther and faster than they would in
a "pure" glider, and how they plan and fly so differently than the "pure" glider pilots.
But now it seems you've noticed that's not true, and are wondering why. I'm glad you've
finally realized the two groups of pilots are not nearly as different as you thought. If
you want to meet pilots that really do plan and fly differently from each other, talk to
1-26 pilots and Nimbus 3 pilots!

Once again: Most pilots buy a motorglider for convenience, not speed and distance. You
know, getting launched where there aren't any towplanes, avoiding that hour-long wait in
the towline, reliably getting home on time, that kind of thing. Convenience, Bob,
Convenience!
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, I have flown with MG pilots, there is more to MG's than convenience, and you still ignore the opinion that there is a difference between the two paradigms. Yes, I do like enlightening you MG and sustainer guys, your skewed

justification and lack of acknowledging the differences amuses me, I still laugh! Now at least the sustainer guys contribute to the club when they are towed, 40-60 bucks helps the club with the overall operating expenses. Does you club charge the self
launch pilot for use of the field or do they just get in their self launch and depart and go back home for an early dinner and pack their ship away? I think that or club will start charging a field use for self launch gliders, say 15 bucks for each self
launch departure, after all we must pay the rent and fuel bill for the tractor that mows the strip. Now I know that , "The Bum", is going to get bent out of shape on this idea, but if he comes to Vero I will pay the fee for his use of the field. Old Bob,
The Purist

Mr. Fitch, you are the one that needs to re-read your post, you made reference about money going into Bob's pocket, maybe you are forgetting a few things. Old Bob, The Purist

Mr Fitch, your implications speak for themselves. Old Bob, The Purist

Mr. Fitch, I have never stated as you have implied anything about tow money being a threat to my revenue On May5th I asked the question about motorgliders paying a fee for use of the field, maybe you should go back and do your homework prior to making

statements about people that are not true. I will make a bet with you, OK? If I made the remark as you have stated I will take a RAS fine and go directly to the suspension arena for 60 days. If you cannot produce the comment as you described, "A Threat
To MY Revenue", then you will go directly to RAS jail for 60 days, deal? Frankly speaking Mr. Fitch, you are delusional. Old Bob, The Purist

Not So Purist Bobby DID NOT answer Jon's simple question: how much cross country time do you have in motorgliders (in the GLIDING mode, NOT touring MGs with the engine running). Since you dodged the question I will interpret that as ZERO.

And you have made it very clear: you see motorgliders as a threat to your revenue.

Tom

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Bob, you are starting to hyperventilate a bit. This is a direct cut and paste from your May 5 post:

"Now at least the sustainer guys contribute to the club when they are towed, 40-60 bucks helps the club with the overall operating expenses."

How else is one to interpret that statement, but as a threat to revenue? If not that, what did you mean by it? I already said I contribute plenty to the local operations, which charge between $12 and $20 for a motorglider launch which is likely as much
or more than the profit from a tow (and discounting the tow plane I bought). So have a good time in jail for 60 days.

I'm having a hard time understanding your motivation for posting this. You come to RAS, not known as the most civil of places, disparaging and insulting a large class of pilots as being unskilled, insecure, not Real Men, Push-the-Button to get out of
trouble, can't really fly cross country, etc., etc., statements clearly designed to provoke and inflame. Then when the reception is a little hot, you get your panties in a twist and complain about the temperature. If you don't like the heat, keep your
thoughts to yourself, better still get some experience flying cross country in a motorglider so we can have an intelligent conversation about the subject. You are like a blind man trying to critique the Mono Lisa.
On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 5:28:49 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 12:09:22 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Bob, I made no implications, simply paraphrased what you said directly: that motorgliders were a threat to your revenue. You then go on to complain about the 3 towplanes and engines for them you have had to buy. To the extent that your clientele are

motorgliders, they are saving you from that expense and headache. I've asked directly several times, "how much experience do you have in cross country flight in a motorglider?" I've never received an answer, which is an answer in itself. Just tooling
around the gliderport for a sightseeing flight doesn't count. It does not force you to make the planning and decisions required of cross country. I'll ask again, expecting no answer: How much experience in a motorglider cross country? How many 300Ks,
500Ks, 1000Ks? Without that, you are forming your opinions on ignorance and faith - which Ambrose Bierce defined as "Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." That pretty well sums up the OP.

On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 1:20:18 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 1:55:21 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Reread it again. What I said was "but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket". And again, you originally complained about the lack of tow fees charged to motorgliders, not me.
On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 2:33:36 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:29:26 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Bob,
Reread my response - I was perfectly polite (and calm). You must be confusing me with someone else :). And you were the one that brought up the lost tow fees, not me. In fact, I bought a towplane for our glider operation, after I already had

a motorglider and always self launched.

Ramy,
I am aware that Bob is simply trolling for controversy, but he is a bit like a train wreck - hard to look away.
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 1:57:52 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 11:10:37 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Eric, myself, and many other MG pilots posting here have extensive cross country experience in both "pure" and motorgliders. I've been flying "pure" gliders since 1968 and motorgliders since 2000. Bob, you have no experience with

motorgliders other than watching them from afar. So yes, we continue to ignore your uninformed and ignorant *opinion*. But this post makes clearer, perhaps, the real motivation: tow fees. That is at least rational. A motorglider is not less expensive
than paying for tows - rather it costs more than all the tows you are ever likely to get - but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket. And yes, the places I fly all charge a motorglider launch fee to cover the facilities, between $12 and $
20 per launch. Tie down, trailer parking, oxygen, etc. are the same for either. Having seen the financials for my home field, a tow doesn't net the FBO $20 after paying for fuel, towplane maintenance, tow pilot, etc. In fact the private tows are a net
loser, and are really just provided as a service, subsidized by rides and instruction.

Mr. Fitch, you need to get a grip on yourself and calm down, you should be more polite when you disagree with someone. For your information I have flown motorgliders both here in the US and abroad. I was introduced to motorgliders many

years prior to your entry into the category. Secondly I do not profit from the towplane, I have personally bought three Pawnee's for the purpose of starting and developing a club, which I have and we have been very successful, probably the most
successful club in the US since our inception to the sport five years ago, prior to that I flew off my own strip. The towplane engine was new in 2021, I paid for it, I paid for all maintenance and repairs, and any other associated expenses to help our
club. I could continue with what I have done for soaring, but I will not ask you what you have done. Have a good evening. Old Bob, The Purist

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 4:34:27 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 11:37:32 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 5/4/2022 4:27 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
's getting better!

No Bum, keep it going, some of the mg comments have been funnier than Saturday Night Live with Eddie Murphy. I will make one comment on the MG guys remarks, your included, why haven't you mg guys been doing longer and better flights?

Seems like a no brainer with that teat that you have to suck if you get low! Oh, I almost forgot Mr. Bum, I might just be your tow pilot soon if things work out, please don't be scared. Old Bob, The Purist

You've been telling us pilots use motorgliders to go farther and faster than they would in
a "pure" glider, and how they plan and fly so differently than the "pure" glider pilots.
But now it seems you've noticed that's not true, and are wondering why. I'm glad you've
finally realized the two groups of pilots are not nearly as different as you thought. If
you want to meet pilots that really do plan and fly differently from each other, talk to
1-26 pilots and Nimbus 3 pilots!

Once again: Most pilots buy a motorglider for convenience, not speed and distance. You
know, getting launched where there aren't any towplanes, avoiding that hour-long wait in
the towline, reliably getting home on time, that kind of thing. Convenience, Bob,
Convenience!
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, I have flown with MG pilots, there is more to MG's than convenience, and you still ignore the opinion that there is a difference between the two paradigms. Yes, I do like enlightening you MG and sustainer guys, your skewed

justification and lack of acknowledging the differences amuses me, I still laugh! Now at least the sustainer guys contribute to the club when they are towed, 40-60 bucks helps the club with the overall operating expenses. Does you club charge the self
launch pilot for use of the field or do they just get in their self launch and depart and go back home for an early dinner and pack their ship away? I think that or club will start charging a field use for self launch gliders, say 15 bucks for each self
launch departure, after all we must pay the rent and fuel bill for the tractor that mows the strip. Now I know that , "The Bum", is going to get bent out of shape on this idea, but if he comes to Vero I will pay the fee for his use of the field. Old Bob,
The Purist

Mr. Fitch, you are the one that needs to re-read your post, you made reference about money going into Bob's pocket, maybe you are forgetting a few things. Old Bob, The Purist

Mr Fitch, your implications speak for themselves. Old Bob, The Purist

Mr. Fitch, I have never stated as you have implied anything about tow money being a threat to my revenue On May5th I asked the question about motorgliders paying a fee for use of the field, maybe you should go back and do your homework prior to making

statements about people that are not true. I will make a bet with you, OK? If I made the remark as you have stated I will take a RAS fine and go directly to the suspension arena for 60 days. If you cannot produce the comment as you described, "A Threat
To MY Revenue", then you will go directly to RAS jail for 60 days, deal? Frankly speaking Mr. Fitch, you are delusional. Old Bob, The Purist

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I keep refreshing the page. Can’t wait to see Bob’s reply although I bet he is going to be able to avoid jail. A real cliffhanger!

Ramy

On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 8:49:21 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:

Bob, you are starting to hyperventilate a bit. This is a direct cut and paste from your May 5 post:
"Now at least the sustainer guys contribute to the club when they are towed, 40-60 bucks helps the club with the overall operating expenses."
How else is one to interpret that statement, but as a threat to revenue? If not that, what did you mean by it? I already said I contribute plenty to the local operations, which charge between $12 and $20 for a motorglider launch which is likely as much

or more than the profit from a tow (and discounting the tow plane I bought). So have a good time in jail for 60 days.

I'm having a hard time understanding your motivation for posting this. You come to RAS, not known as the most civil of places, disparaging and insulting a large class of pilots as being unskilled, insecure, not Real Men, Push-the-Button to get out of

trouble, can't really fly cross country, etc., etc., statements clearly designed to provoke and inflame. Then when the reception is a little hot, you get your panties in a twist and complain about the temperature. If you don't like the heat, keep your
thoughts to yourself, better still get some experience flying cross country in a motorglider so we can have an intelligent conversation about the subject. You are like a blind man trying to critique the Mono Lisa.

On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 5:28:49 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 12:09:22 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Bob, I made no implications, simply paraphrased what you said directly: that motorgliders were a threat to your revenue. You then go on to complain about the 3 towplanes and engines for them you have had to buy. To the extent that your clientele

are motorgliders, they are saving you from that expense and headache. I've asked directly several times, "how much experience do you have in cross country flight in a motorglider?" I've never received an answer, which is an answer in itself. Just tooling
around the gliderport for a sightseeing flight doesn't count. It does not force you to make the planning and decisions required of cross country. I'll ask again, expecting no answer: How much experience in a motorglider cross country? How many 300Ks,
500Ks, 1000Ks? Without that, you are forming your opinions on ignorance and faith - which Ambrose Bierce defined as "Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." That pretty well sums up the OP.

On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 1:20:18 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 1:55:21 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Reread it again. What I said was "but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket". And again, you originally complained about the lack of tow fees charged to motorgliders, not me.
On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 2:33:36 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:29:26 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Bob,
Reread my response - I was perfectly polite (and calm). You must be confusing me with someone else :). And you were the one that brought up the lost tow fees, not me. In fact, I bought a towplane for our glider operation, after I already

had a motorglider and always self launched.

Ramy,
I am aware that Bob is simply trolling for controversy, but he is a bit like a train wreck - hard to look away.
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 1:57:52 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 11:10:37 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Eric, myself, and many other MG pilots posting here have extensive cross country experience in both "pure" and motorgliders. I've been flying "pure" gliders since 1968 and motorgliders since 2000. Bob, you have no experience with

motorgliders other than watching them from afar. So yes, we continue to ignore your uninformed and ignorant *opinion*. But this post makes clearer, perhaps, the real motivation: tow fees. That is at least rational. A motorglider is not less expensive
than paying for tows - rather it costs more than all the tows you are ever likely to get - but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket. And yes, the places I fly all charge a motorglider launch fee to cover the facilities, between $12 and $
20 per launch. Tie down, trailer parking, oxygen, etc. are the same for either. Having seen the financials for my home field, a tow doesn't net the FBO $20 after paying for fuel, towplane maintenance, tow pilot, etc. In fact the private tows are a net
loser, and are really just provided as a service, subsidized by rides and instruction.

Mr. Fitch, you need to get a grip on yourself and calm down, you should be more polite when you disagree with someone. For your information I have flown motorgliders both here in the US and abroad. I was introduced to motorgliders many

years prior to your entry into the category. Secondly I do not profit from the towplane, I have personally bought three Pawnee's for the purpose of starting and developing a club, which I have and we have been very successful, probably the most
successful club in the US since our inception to the sport five years ago, prior to that I flew off my own strip. The towplane engine was new in 2021, I paid for it, I paid for all maintenance and repairs, and any other associated expenses to help our
club. I could continue with what I have done for soaring, but I will not ask you what you have done. Have a good evening. Old Bob, The Purist

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 4:34:27 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 11:37:32 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 5/4/2022 4:27 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
's getting better!

No Bum, keep it going, some of the mg comments have been funnier than Saturday Night Live with Eddie Murphy. I will make one comment on the MG guys remarks, your included, why haven't you mg guys been doing longer and better

flights? Seems like a no brainer with that teat that you have to suck if you get low! Oh, I almost forgot Mr. Bum, I might just be your tow pilot soon if things work out, please don't be scared. Old Bob, The Purist

You've been telling us pilots use motorgliders to go farther and faster than they would in
a "pure" glider, and how they plan and fly so differently than the "pure" glider pilots.
But now it seems you've noticed that's not true, and are wondering why. I'm glad you've
finally realized the two groups of pilots are not nearly as different as you thought. If
you want to meet pilots that really do plan and fly differently from each other, talk to
1-26 pilots and Nimbus 3 pilots!

Once again: Most pilots buy a motorglider for convenience, not speed and distance. You
know, getting launched where there aren't any towplanes, avoiding that hour-long wait in
the towline, reliably getting home on time, that kind of thing. Convenience, Bob,
Convenience!
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, I have flown with MG pilots, there is more to MG's than convenience, and you still ignore the opinion that there is a difference between the two paradigms. Yes, I do like enlightening you MG and sustainer guys, your skewed

justification and lack of acknowledging the differences amuses me, I still laugh! Now at least the sustainer guys contribute to the club when they are towed, 40-60 bucks helps the club with the overall operating expenses. Does you club charge the self
launch pilot for use of the field or do they just get in their self launch and depart and go back home for an early dinner and pack their ship away? I think that or club will start charging a field use for self launch gliders, say 15 bucks for each self
launch departure, after all we must pay the rent and fuel bill for the tractor that mows the strip. Now I know that , "The Bum", is going to get bent out of shape on this idea, but if he comes to Vero I will pay the fee for his use of the field. Old Bob,
The Purist

Mr. Fitch, you are the one that needs to re-read your post, you made reference about money going into Bob's pocket, maybe you are forgetting a few things. Old Bob, The Purist

Mr Fitch, your implications speak for themselves. Old Bob, The Purist

Mr. Fitch, I have never stated as you have implied anything about tow money being a threat to my revenue On May5th I asked the question about motorgliders paying a fee for use of the field, maybe you should go back and do your homework prior to

making statements about people that are not true. I will make a bet with you, OK? If I made the remark as you have stated I will take a RAS fine and go directly to the suspension arena for 60 days. If you cannot produce the comment as you described, "A
Threat To MY Revenue", then you will go directly to RAS jail for 60 days, deal? Frankly speaking Mr. Fitch, you are delusional. Old Bob, The Purist

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 11:49:21 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Bob, you are starting to hyperventilate a bit. This is a direct cut and paste from your May 5 post:
"Now at least the sustainer guys contribute to the club when they are towed, 40-60 bucks helps the club with the overall operating expenses."
How else is one to interpret that statement, but as a threat to revenue? If not that, what did you mean by it? I already said I contribute plenty to the local operations, which charge between $12 and $20 for a motorglider launch which is likely as much

or more than the profit from a tow (and discounting the tow plane I bought). So have a good time in jail for 60 days.

I'm having a hard time understanding your motivation for posting this. You come to RAS, not known as the most civil of places, disparaging and insulting a large class of pilots as being unskilled, insecure, not Real Men, Push-the-Button to get out of

trouble, can't really fly cross country, etc., etc., statements clearly designed to provoke and inflame. Then when the reception is a little hot, you get your panties in a twist and complain about the temperature. If you don't like the heat, keep your
thoughts to yourself, better still get some experience flying cross country in a motorglider so we can have an intelligent conversation about the subject. You are like a blind man trying to critique the Mono Lisa.

On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 5:28:49 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 12:09:22 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Bob, I made no implications, simply paraphrased what you said directly: that motorgliders were a threat to your revenue. You then go on to complain about the 3 towplanes and engines for them you have had to buy. To the extent that your clientele

are motorgliders, they are saving you from that expense and headache. I've asked directly several times, "how much experience do you have in cross country flight in a motorglider?" I've never received an answer, which is an answer in itself. Just tooling
around the gliderport for a sightseeing flight doesn't count. It does not force you to make the planning and decisions required of cross country. I'll ask again, expecting no answer: How much experience in a motorglider cross country? How many 300Ks,
500Ks, 1000Ks? Without that, you are forming your opinions on ignorance and faith - which Ambrose Bierce defined as "Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." That pretty well sums up the OP.

On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 1:20:18 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 1:55:21 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Reread it again. What I said was "but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket". And again, you originally complained about the lack of tow fees charged to motorgliders, not me.
On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 2:33:36 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:29:26 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Bob,
Reread my response - I was perfectly polite (and calm). You must be confusing me with someone else :). And you were the one that brought up the lost tow fees, not me. In fact, I bought a towplane for our glider operation, after I already

had a motorglider and always self launched.

Ramy,
I am aware that Bob is simply trolling for controversy, but he is a bit like a train wreck - hard to look away.
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 1:57:52 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 11:10:37 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Eric, myself, and many other MG pilots posting here have extensive cross country experience in both "pure" and motorgliders. I've been flying "pure" gliders since 1968 and motorgliders since 2000. Bob, you have no experience with

motorgliders other than watching them from afar. So yes, we continue to ignore your uninformed and ignorant *opinion*. But this post makes clearer, perhaps, the real motivation: tow fees. That is at least rational. A motorglider is not less expensive
than paying for tows - rather it costs more than all the tows you are ever likely to get - but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket. And yes, the places I fly all charge a motorglider launch fee to cover the facilities, between $12 and $
20 per launch. Tie down, trailer parking, oxygen, etc. are the same for either. Having seen the financials for my home field, a tow doesn't net the FBO $20 after paying for fuel, towplane maintenance, tow pilot, etc. In fact the private tows are a net
loser, and are really just provided as a service, subsidized by rides and instruction.

Mr. Fitch, you need to get a grip on yourself and calm down, you should be more polite when you disagree with someone. For your information I have flown motorgliders both here in the US and abroad. I was introduced to motorgliders many

years prior to your entry into the category. Secondly I do not profit from the towplane, I have personally bought three Pawnee's for the purpose of starting and developing a club, which I have and we have been very successful, probably the most
successful club in the US since our inception to the sport five years ago, prior to that I flew off my own strip. The towplane engine was new in 2021, I paid for it, I paid for all maintenance and repairs, and any other associated expenses to help our
club. I could continue with what I have done for soaring, but I will not ask you what you have done. Have a good evening. Old Bob, The Purist

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 4:34:27 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 11:37:32 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 5/4/2022 4:27 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
's getting better!

No Bum, keep it going, some of the mg comments have been funnier than Saturday Night Live with Eddie Murphy. I will make one comment on the MG guys remarks, your included, why haven't you mg guys been doing longer and better

flights? Seems like a no brainer with that teat that you have to suck if you get low! Oh, I almost forgot Mr. Bum, I might just be your tow pilot soon if things work out, please don't be scared. Old Bob, The Purist

You've been telling us pilots use motorgliders to go farther and faster than they would in
a "pure" glider, and how they plan and fly so differently than the "pure" glider pilots.
But now it seems you've noticed that's not true, and are wondering why. I'm glad you've
finally realized the two groups of pilots are not nearly as different as you thought. If
you want to meet pilots that really do plan and fly differently from each other, talk to
1-26 pilots and Nimbus 3 pilots!

Once again: Most pilots buy a motorglider for convenience, not speed and distance. You
know, getting launched where there aren't any towplanes, avoiding that hour-long wait in
the towline, reliably getting home on time, that kind of thing. Convenience, Bob,
Convenience!
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, I have flown with MG pilots, there is more to MG's than convenience, and you still ignore the opinion that there is a difference between the two paradigms. Yes, I do like enlightening you MG and sustainer guys, your skewed

justification and lack of acknowledging the differences amuses me, I still laugh! Now at least the sustainer guys contribute to the club when they are towed, 40-60 bucks helps the club with the overall operating expenses. Does you club charge the self
launch pilot for use of the field or do they just get in their self launch and depart and go back home for an early dinner and pack their ship away? I think that or club will start charging a field use for self launch gliders, say 15 bucks for each self
launch departure, after all we must pay the rent and fuel bill for the tractor that mows the strip. Now I know that , "The Bum", is going to get bent out of shape on this idea, but if he comes to Vero I will pay the fee for his use of the field. Old Bob,
The Purist

Mr. Fitch, you are the one that needs to re-read your post, you made reference about money going into Bob's pocket, maybe you are forgetting a few things. Old Bob, The Purist

Mr Fitch, your implications speak for themselves. Old Bob, The Purist

Mr. Fitch, I have never stated as you have implied anything about tow money being a threat to my revenue On May5th I asked the question about motorgliders paying a fee for use of the field, maybe you should go back and do your homework prior to

making statements about people that are not true. I will make a bet with you, OK? If I made the remark as you have stated I will take a RAS fine and go directly to the suspension arena for 60 days. If you cannot produce the comment as you described, "A
Threat To MY Revenue", then you will go directly to RAS jail for 60 days, deal? Frankly speaking Mr. Fitch, you are delusional. Old Bob, The Purist
Mr Fitch, you need to refresh and find where as you stated in the possessive term that the tow revenue was directed toward me. As I have stated, I am not the club, I hold no title with the club, the club is not Bob, as you have implied. Please show me
where as you stated that I have said that the loss of the fee was , "A Threat To My Revenue".
Now show me where I made that comment! Do you understand what a possessive noun is?
Ramy, I will await his reply.

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When you strip away all the hot sauce and postering of this thread, I believe Bob is closer to the truth than the Choir.
No one can deny that the miracle of what we do, soar cross country, is reduce as engines become more the norm.
But, we can all also agree that with an engine possibilities exist that allows us to explore new areas and reduce the risk as we reach further.
We only have to turn around and see the guy who got his Diamond in a 1-26 to realize we're all a bunch of underachievers.

I fail to see how Bob is greedy when he is training a bunch of people.....FOR FREE.
Offering any Club or Commercial Glider Ops. money for use of the facilities to self launch, without them tracking me down, is expected and shows respect. I always preempt by offering to pay before I assemble, use their restrooms, drink their water.
Whatever the cost.

R

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On 5/13/2022 6:07 AM, R wrote:

But, we can all also agree that with an engine possibilities exist that allows us to explore new areas and reduce the risk as we reach further.
We only have to turn around and see the guy who got his Diamond in a 1-26 to realize we're all a bunch of underachievers.

You make the point I've tried to make: How you soar is affected by your equipment (and a
lot of other things). There is a big difference in how a 1-26 pilot plans a flight, and
his decisions in flight, compared to a pilot flying a Nimbus 3. That difference is larger
than than the difference between a pilot flying a ASG29 and a pilot flying a ASG29ES.

And when it comes to OLC scores, something Bob also seems quite concerned about, the
biggest difference is not motored/towed, but where the pilots fly. A ASG29 flying a good
day out of Ely will trounce an ASG29ES flying a good day out of Hibiscus.

If you are retired, you can fly the best days, and do better than the weekend pilots; if
you have an enthusiastic crew, you can fly bigger, better flights (think Henry Combs and
Wally Scott); if you live near a soaring operation, you can fly more and better flights
than the pilot that has to travel hours to get there; if you can get towed instead of
winched, you will also do better; if you are flying a contest your planning and in-flight
decisions will be very different than if you are attempting a record, or a recreational
flight.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

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At the end I find no correlation between how a pilot flies to the type of glider they fly. The conservative pilot will fly conservatively with or without an engine, and the aggressive cross country pilot will fly the same with or without. The main
difference is the time (and hassle) the pure glider pilot will get back home in case of a landout vs the motorglider pilot. To me, this is all part of the adventure.
FWIW, I think those who claim that Old Bob motive is revenue, completely missing the point and misread and misquote him. You can disagree with his claims, as Eric does. I just enjoy the entertainment. BTW I find his OLC comments equally entertaining.

Ramy

On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 6:51:09 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 5/13/2022 6:07 AM, R wrote:

But, we can all also agree that with an engine possibilities exist that allows us to explore new areas and reduce the risk as we reach further.
We only have to turn around and see the guy who got his Diamond in a 1-26 to realize we're all a bunch of underachievers.

You make the point I've tried to make: How you soar is affected by your equipment (and a
lot of other things). There is a big difference in how a 1-26 pilot plans a flight, and
his decisions in flight, compared to a pilot flying a Nimbus 3. That difference is larger
than than the difference between a pilot flying a ASG29 and a pilot flying a ASG29ES.

And when it comes to OLC scores, something Bob also seems quite concerned about, the
biggest difference is not motored/towed, but where the pilots fly. A ASG29 flying a good
day out of Ely will trounce an ASG29ES flying a good day out of Hibiscus.

If you are retired, you can fly the best days, and do better than the weekend pilots; if
you have an enthusiastic crew, you can fly bigger, better flights (think Henry Combs and
Wally Scott); if you live near a soaring operation, you can fly more and better flights
than the pilot that has to travel hours to get there; if you can get towed instead of
winched, you will also do better; if you are flying a contest your planning and in-flight
decisions will be very different than if you are attempting a record, or a recreational
flight.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

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If revenue is an issue for Old Bob, he might want to consider the number of pilots who are turned off by his snarky attitude towards anyone he feels like antagonizing. Motorglider pilots, women (remember "The Apology?"), OLC pilots and anyone that doesn'
t just swoon about the "magnificent" Treasure Coast and its XC potential of yards and yards circumnavigating Lake Okeefenokee or whatever. Vero Beach and TCSC never made my bucket list, and if Old Bob is around, it never will.

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On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 3:06:51 PM UTC-4, Mark Mocho wrote:

If revenue is an issue for Old Bob, he might want to consider the number of pilots who are turned off by his snarky attitude towards anyone he feels like antagonizing. Motorglider pilots, women (remember "The Apology?"), OLC pilots and anyone that

doesn't just swoon about the "magnificent" Treasure Coast and its XC potential of yards and yards circumnavigating Lake Okeefenokee or whatever. Vero Beach and TCSC never made my bucket list, and if Old Bob is around, it never will.
Glad that I will not be leaving the light on for you Mark, besides having heard you speak in person I would have to have a bar of soap to wash you mouth out, an old southern tradition when vulgarity spews from a child's mouth. I will make sure I have a
bar of Dial if you do come this way. Old Bob, The Purist

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I will make sure I have a bar of Dial if you do come this way. Old Bob, The Purist

I thought a Purist would prefer Ivory, as it advertises "99.9% pure soap." But it will be interesting to see what happens if you try it.

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On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 1:17:02 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Bob, you can't stop progress, no matter how hard you try. But it is good to see someone getting along with muskets, spats, dial telephone land lines, wind up watches, lava lamps, 3-on-the-column shifts, and string towed gliders. So my friend, come out

here and take a flight - oh wait a minute, you'll need a tow plane and we are fresh out......

On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 5:20:21 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

Right when things are somewhat calm and the snowbirds are headed back up north the weather finally gets good and we were able to get a few good glider flights in the books. The motorglider drivers up at Seminole had some nice flights and discovered

that the Florida spring had arrived a bit late.

Now comes the disturbing news, my fellow glider pilot and purist informed me that he had sold his 27 and was taking delivery of a motorglider. Now this is a good guy that I met back long ago only to realize that we were from the same area in Georgia.

now this makes two of my good friends that have gone to the dark side during the past few weeks. I have been pondering what would cause two perfectly good guys to convert and go to the other side, this would be like me a UM guy pulling for the Gators or
an Alabama fan pulling for Auburn, it just doesn't happen. I know that both of these fine gentlemen did not drink the same water from the Coosa River.

Wow, what is happening, next thing you know my dog will be looking at motorgliders and trying to convince me to get one, I told Eileen to change the dogs medication. So, the best thing about this whole scenario is that I will have to buy two less

Christmas cards and save money on the postage.

As for me I will keep flying that antique 27 and Eileen will stay with the 24 and hopefully the dog will recover.
Enjoy those motorgliders my friends, call me if you need a tow, or come on down to Vero and we will tape those doors shut and go for a flight. Old Bob, The Purist

No word from Mr. Fitch?

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On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 4:51:30 PM UTC-4, Mark Mocho wrote:

I will make sure I have a bar of Dial if you do come this way. Old Bob, The Purist
I thought a Purist would prefer Ivory, as it advertises "99.9% pure soap." But it will be interesting to see what happens if you try it.

Open invitation!

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There ya go!

I recall with great pleasure getting home at 0300 after a long retrieve.
More than that was that the buddy who retrieved me left a message for
his wife that he was coming to get me. Oops! It was their anniversary
and that's why he was unable to reach her. She was at the hair dresser...

First time I spoke with her on the phone, I introduced myself as the guy
that ruined her anniversary. She replied that it was her birthday, too!

Thanks Neil!

Dan
5J

On 5/13/22 11:03, Ramy wrote:

At the end I find no correlation between how a pilot flies to the type of glider they fly. The conservative pilot will fly conservatively with or without an engine, and the aggressive cross country pilot will fly the same with or without. The main

difference is the time (and hassle) the pure glider pilot will get back home in case of a landout vs the motorglider pilot. To me, this is all part of the adventure.

FWIW, I think those who claim that Old Bob motive is revenue, completely missing the point and misread and misquote him. You can disagree with his claims, as Eric does. I just enjoy the entertainment. BTW I find his OLC comments equally entertaining.

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On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 12:35:16 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 3:06:51 PM UTC-4, Mark Mocho wrote:

If revenue is an issue for Old Bob, he might want to consider the number of pilots who are turned off by his snarky attitude towards anyone he feels like antagonizing. Motorglider pilots, women (remember "The Apology?"), OLC pilots and anyone that

doesn't just swoon about the "magnificent" Treasure Coast and its XC potential of yards and yards circumnavigating Lake Okeefenokee or whatever. Vero Beach and TCSC never made my bucket list, and if Old Bob is around, it never will.

Glad that I will not be leaving the light on for you Mark, besides having heard you speak in person I would have to have a bar of soap to wash you mouth out, an old southern tradition when vulgarity spews from a child's mouth. I will make sure I have a

bar of Dial if you do come this way. Old Bob, The Purist

That's RICH, Bobby, after all the racist comments you have made that are WELL DESERVING of a mouth washing!

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OK Bob, so now we have moved on from soaring and are arguing semantics. I’m on my boat, enroute to Alaska and really don’t have the time and bandwidth to keep this up. Ramy, I never called Bob greedy, and don’t think of him that way. He is however
perfectly willing to cast derision and ridicule on a large class of his fellow pilots, repeatedly and without respite or subject knowledge.

The sentence we are apparently arguing the semantics of (on a soaring site) is:

“A motorglider is not less expensive than paying for tows - rather it costs more than all the tows you are ever likely to get - but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket.”

Can you point me to a single word in that sentence which is factually untrue? Surely you do not get a kickback from Schleicher or Schemp or Jonkers for every motorglider they sell? Now metaphorically, the club in that statement - and in Bob’s statement
- is Bob’s pocket, or whoever is running the tow service, possessive nouns notwithstanding. Tows cannot contribute to the club or the operation unless the tow fees flow to the club or operation.

This is all of course ridiculous. The ridiculousness started with Bob’s opening post, one of many tiresome ones on this subject. Get over it Bob. We know how you feel. We just don’t feel the same. You aren’t changing anyone’s mind.
On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 2:31:19 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 1:17:02 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Bob, you can't stop progress, no matter how hard you try. But it is good to see someone getting along with muskets, spats, dial telephone land lines, wind up watches, lava lamps, 3-on-the-column shifts, and string towed gliders. So my friend, come

out here and take a flight - oh wait a minute, you'll need a tow plane and we are fresh out......

On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 5:20:21 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

Right when things are somewhat calm and the snowbirds are headed back up north the weather finally gets good and we were able to get a few good glider flights in the books. The motorglider drivers up at Seminole had some nice flights and discovered

that the Florida spring had arrived a bit late.

Now comes the disturbing news, my fellow glider pilot and purist informed me that he had sold his 27 and was taking delivery of a motorglider. Now this is a good guy that I met back long ago only to realize that we were from the same area in

Georgia. now this makes two of my good friends that have gone to the dark side during the past few weeks. I have been pondering what would cause two perfectly good guys to convert and go to the other side, this would be like me a UM guy pulling for the
Gators or an Alabama fan pulling for Auburn, it just doesn't happen. I know that both of these fine gentlemen did not drink the same water from the Coosa River.

Wow, what is happening, next thing you know my dog will be looking at motorgliders and trying to convince me to get one, I told Eileen to change the dogs medication. So, the best thing about this whole scenario is that I will have to buy two less

Christmas cards and save money on the postage.

As for me I will keep flying that antique 27 and Eileen will stay with the 24 and hopefully the dog will recover.
Enjoy those motorgliders my friends, call me if you need a tow, or come on down to Vero and we will tape those doors shut and go for a flight. Old Bob, The Purist

No word from Mr. Fitch?

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