An excellently written accident report worth reading: https://bea.aero/fileadmin/user_upload/D-KWAY_en.pdfIt is an excellent report. I'm a bit concerned with the conclusion that the ASH 26 glide ratio decreased from 40:1 to 10:1 with the mast extended. I have not experience that severe of a decline in L/D in the 18m config on my ASH 31. I would surmise that
An excellently written accident report worth reading: https://bea.aero/fileadmin/user_upload/D-KWAY_en.pdfExtending the prop for an engine start when 850' high and still 9400 ft from the runway is a desperation move. Still, he must have had sink, Schleicher states in the ASH26 manual that an extended prop that isn't turning will reduce glide to 18:1. That is
... Why he didn't just "slam" the mast down ASAP after he couldn't start the engine
would be my first question to the pilot.
Craig
Extending the prop for an engine start when 850' high and still 9400 ft from the runway
is a desperation move.
An excellently written accident report worth reading: https://bea.aero/fileadmin/user_upload/D-KWAY_en.pdf
On 10/6/2023 7:55 AM, Dave Nadler wrote:
An excellently written accident report worth reading: https://bea.aero/fileadmin/user_upload/D-KWAY_en.pdf
Having recently lost a longish-time, gliderport-compadre to what appears to have been uncontrolled "flight" into (survivably-landable) terrain in a similar ship - mast appearing to've been at least partially extended - both these crunches (and many, many, more over the years) tend to confirm my long-held working conclusion that Joe Pilot has to work really, really, hard to come up with new-n-creative ways to have accidents.
That's not by way of assigning blame, but by way of trying to "NOT go there" myself. My recently-demised gliderport-compadre was 71 and (lifelong?) of "slightly chubby" aspect (i.e. far from morbidly obese). Predictably, one of the first speculations I encountered in the wake of his crash was "can't rule
out a medical event"...and indeed I cannot/do-not. But any glider pilot taking
personal comfort in that possibilty is - IMO - discounting an elephant in the
room: it might *NOT* have been medical. "Kids, don't DO that!"
Be careful out there, indeed...
On Friday, October 6, 2023 at 6:55:49 AM UTC-7, Dave Nadler wrote:is about what I have measured. The lesson here is that you must plan your return to the airport to account for the possibility of sink, no matter the flavor of glider you are flying.
An excellently written accident report worth reading:Extending the prop for an engine start when 850' high and still 9400 ft from the runway is a desperation move. Still, he must have had sink, Schleicher states in the ASH26 manual that an extended prop that isn't turning will reduce glide to 18:1. That
https://bea.aero/fileadmin/user_upload/D-KWAY_en.pdf
I am perhaps overly conservative, but I'd say extending the prop for a restart at 850' directly over the runway is marginal. At that time you should be entering the pattern for landing (the most dangerous phase of flight) and adding an engine startgreatly increases pilot workload. Fiddle with it for a minute, discover it won't start, and now you have <2 minutes left to change your landing plan to account for landing with the engine out, a situation that is likely unfamiliar.
What are the chances that we will get such a detailed accident report anytime soon
for the Colorado accident Bob is referring to? There is a preliminary NTSB report
with some details, but the most important question remains
if the engine contributed to the accident.
On Friday, October 6, 2023 at 4:13:22 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:I have some pretty good information on this tragic event, what you are likely to read is that the engine was deployed and the pilot spun in from a low altitude. Unlikely that there was anything medically contributed to the accident. Old Bob, The Purist
What are the chances that we will get such a detailed accident report anytime soonI've seen no *evidence* that the engine contributed to that accident.
for the Colorado accident Bob is referring to? There is a preliminary NTSB report
with some details, but the most important question remains
if the engine contributed to the accident.
The engine *may* have been in the (relatively low drag) cooling position.
An important note, though probably not relevant to the specific accident
Bob mentioned; Current certification requirements do NOT require,
for engine deployed and not running:
- stall and spin testing (with verification of acceptable handling),
- any minimum sink rate,
- trim authority for pattern speed
These points were discussed and acknowledged at the OSTIV SDP
meeting last week.
Hope that helps,
Best Regards, Dave
On Saturday, October 7, 2023 at 12:40:33 PM UTC-4, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Friday, October 6, 2023 at 4:13:22 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
What are the chances that we will get such a detailed accident report anytime soonI've seen no *evidence* that the engine contributed to that accident.
for the Colorado accident Bob is referring to? There is a preliminary NTSB report
with some details, but the most important question remains
if the engine contributed to the accident.
The engine *may* have been in the (relatively low drag) cooling position.
An important note, though probably not relevant to the specific accident Bob mentioned; Current certification requirements do NOT require,
for engine deployed and not running:
- stall and spin testing (with verification of acceptable handling),
- any minimum sink rate,
- trim authority for pattern speed
These points were discussed and acknowledged at the OSTIV SDP
meeting last week.
Hope that helps,I have some pretty good information on this tragic event, what you are likely to read is that the engine was deployed and the pilot spun in from a low altitude. Unlikely that there was anything medically contributed to the accident. Old Bob, The Purist
Best Regards, Dave
On Saturday, October 7, 2023 at 12:40:33 PM UTC-4, Dave Nadler wrote:What information causes you to rule out a medical issue?
On Friday, October 6, 2023 at 4:13:22 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
What are the chances that we will get such a detailed accident report anytime soonI've seen no *evidence* that the engine contributed to that accident.
for the Colorado accident Bob is referring to? There is a preliminary NTSB report
with some details, but the most important question remains
if the engine contributed to the accident.
The engine *may* have been in the (relatively low drag) cooling position.
An important note, though probably not relevant to the specific accident Bob mentioned; Current certification requirements do NOT require,
for engine deployed and not running:
- stall and spin testing (with verification of acceptable handling),
- any minimum sink rate,
- trim authority for pattern speed
These points were discussed and acknowledged at the OSTIV SDP
meeting last week.
Hope that helps,I have some pretty good information on this tragic event, what you are likely to read is that the engine was deployed and the pilot spun in from a low altitude. Unlikely that there was anything medically contributed to the accident. Old Bob, The Purist
Best Regards, Dave
On Saturday, October 7, 2023 at 1:35:34 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:Ventus thermal right into the ground at Cal City!
On Saturday, October 7, 2023 at 12:40:33 PM UTC-4, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Friday, October 6, 2023 at 4:13:22 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:I have some pretty good information on this tragic event, what you are likely to read is that the engine was deployed and the pilot spun in from a low altitude. Unlikely that there was anything medically contributed to the accident. Old Bob, The Purist
What are the chances that we will get such a detailed accident report anytime soonI've seen no *evidence* that the engine contributed to that accident.
for the Colorado accident Bob is referring to? There is a preliminary NTSB report
with some details, but the most important question remains
if the engine contributed to the accident.
The engine *may* have been in the (relatively low drag) cooling position. >>>
An important note, though probably not relevant to the specific accident >>> Bob mentioned; Current certification requirements do NOT require,
for engine deployed and not running:
- stall and spin testing (with verification of acceptable handling),
- any minimum sink rate,
- trim authority for pattern speed
These points were discussed and acknowledged at the OSTIV SDP
meeting last week.
Hope that helps,
Best Regards, Dave
This sounds like, “Safety margin creep”, to me. The guy couldn’t be more current with tons of hours in type, having owned the ship for years. I happened to me! My absolute minimum altitude to stop turning was a hard 300’, after watching a
After hitting a good bump at 300’ while turning final, I stayed with my minimum altitude to stop turning and landed at Sweetwater strip in the Sierras. Fifteen minutes later, I watched another ship, hit the same bump, turn in it, and CLIMB AWAY!
My absolute minimum altitude suddenly moved over to the Usually /maybe column!
We can rationalize/ out-think ourselves right into the ground!
JJ
On Friday, October 6, 2023 at 4:13:22 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:While certification may not require it, at least in the case of the ASH26E: It was tested for stall and spin with engine running and not running (and gives recovery procedures in the manual), the sink rate with engine deployed and not running is quoted
What are the chances that we will get such a detailed accident report anytime soonI've seen no *evidence* that the engine contributed to that accident.
for the Colorado accident Bob is referring to? There is a preliminary NTSB report
with some details, but the most important question remains
if the engine contributed to the accident.
The engine *may* have been in the (relatively low drag) cooling position.
An important note, though probably not relevant to the specific accident
Bob mentioned; Current certification requirements do NOT require,
for engine deployed and not running:
- stall and spin testing (with verification of acceptable handling),
- any minimum sink rate,
- trim authority for pattern speed
These points were discussed and acknowledged at the OSTIV SDP
meeting last week.
Hope that helps,
Best Regards, Dave
On Saturday, October 7, 2023 at 9:40:33 AM UTC-7, Dave Nadler wrote:in the manual, and there is plenty of trim authority for pattern speed regardless of engine status.
On Friday, October 6, 2023 at 4:13:22 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
What are the chances that we will get such a detailed accident report anytime soonI've seen no *evidence* that the engine contributed to that accident.
for the Colorado accident Bob is referring to? There is a preliminary NTSB report
with some details, but the most important question remains
if the engine contributed to the accident.
The engine *may* have been in the (relatively low drag) cooling position.
An important note, though probably not relevant to the specific accident Bob mentioned; Current certification requirements do NOT require,
for engine deployed and not running:
- stall and spin testing (with verification of acceptable handling),
- any minimum sink rate,
- trim authority for pattern speed
These points were discussed and acknowledged at the OSTIV SDP
meeting last week.
Hope that helps,While certification may not require it, at least in the case of the ASH26E: It was tested for stall and spin with engine running and not running (and gives recovery procedures in the manual), the sink rate with engine deployed and not running is quoted
Best Regards, Dave
In the accident on Colorado, the crash site is in the middle of a large, open and landable field. In the accident in Germany, the glider encountered trees trying to make it back to the runway. Quite different conditions, and at least the last minute offlight also appears to be quite different.
On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 10:30:51 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:quoted in the manual, and there is plenty of trim authority for pattern speed regardless of engine status.
On Saturday, October 7, 2023 at 9:40:33 AM UTC-7, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Friday, October 6, 2023 at 4:13:22 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
What are the chances that we will get such a detailed accident report anytime soonI've seen no *evidence* that the engine contributed to that accident. The engine *may* have been in the (relatively low drag) cooling position.
for the Colorado accident Bob is referring to? There is a preliminary NTSB report
with some details, but the most important question remains
if the engine contributed to the accident.
An important note, though probably not relevant to the specific accident Bob mentioned; Current certification requirements do NOT require,
for engine deployed and not running:
- stall and spin testing (with verification of acceptable handling),
- any minimum sink rate,
- trim authority for pattern speed
These points were discussed and acknowledged at the OSTIV SDP
meeting last week.
Hope that helps,While certification may not require it, at least in the case of the ASH26E: It was tested for stall and spin with engine running and not running (and gives recovery procedures in the manual), the sink rate with engine deployed and not running is
Best Regards, Dave
of flight also appears to be quite different.In the accident on Colorado, the crash site is in the middle of a large, open and landable field. In the accident in Germany, the glider encountered trees trying to make it back to the runway. Quite different conditions, and at least the last minute
Hey guys,
The pilot wasn’t killed! He survived and made a statement to the authorities that didn’t mention any medical issues or spinning in!
Read the complete report on Dave’s post!
JJ
This sounds classic and has been done many times before. I recall a DG800 going into the tree short of intended field with the engine out. Pilot tried to start the engine and failed. He called the field and asked for help getting a ride, replied...soonas we hook up your trailer we will be on the way. His reply, no need for the trailer, the glider is still in the trees!!
I fly a DG800 and never shut the engine down more than a 10:1 glide to a known landable field. 17 years now, knocking on wood, it has kept me out of trouble.Looking at the GPS trace and average glide for each segment, before and after the engine was deployed, it answers another string in the past who said they had a 20:1 glide with the engine out in a similar glider. The glide trace says 11:1 with the
Buzz Graves
The glider's flight trace from an IGC file does not show the still air glide ratio, as wind and sink can change the achieved glide ratio over the ground. The glide ratio of the ASH26E with the mast up and gear down is well known to owners, and it is inthe 18-20:1 range. A 11:1 ratio would truly be the "plummet mode" Dave sometimes refers to, and us 26E owners would definitely notice it!
On Tuesday, October 10, 2023 at 1:18:51 PM UTC-7, BG wrote:soon as we hook up your trailer we will be on the way. His reply, no need for the trailer, the glider is still in the trees!!
This sounds classic and has been done many times before. I recall a DG800 going into the tree short of intended field with the engine out. Pilot tried to start the engine and failed. He called the field and asked for help getting a ride, replied...
engine out. Stacks up well with my own experiences and margin I use if the engine is not working and out.I fly a DG800 and never shut the engine down more than a 10:1 glide to a known landable field. 17 years now, knocking on wood, it has kept me out of trouble.
Buzz GravesLooking at the GPS trace and average glide for each segment, before and after the engine was deployed, it answers another string in the past who said they had a 20:1 glide with the engine out in a similar glider. The glide trace says 11:1 with the
Buzz GravesThe glider's flight trace from an IGC file does not show the still air glide ratio, as wind and sink can change the achieved glide ratio over the ground. The glide ratio of the ASH26E with the mast up and gear down is well known to owners, and it is in
in the 18-20:1 range. A 11:1 ratio would truly be the "plummet mode" Dave sometimes refers to, and us 26E owners would definitely notice it!The glider's flight trace from an IGC file does not show the still air glide ratio, as wind and sink can change the achieved glide ratio over the ground. The glide ratio of the ASH26E with the mast up and gear down is well known to owners, and it is
Another major factor is whether the prop is windmilling or stopped. A windmilling prop adds almost the flat plate surface of its swept area. A large drag reduction is had by stopping to prop, and of course even more by stowing it. If one can't stop itdue to a broken belt or whatever, they laying in down nets a large gain in L/D over a windmilling prop.
bumper
...I'm sure that there's sufficient experiential data about the behavior and impact of windmilling props to confirm that it's worse than a stopped one...https://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/misc/prop.pdf
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 12:19:01 PM UTC-4, Doug Bailey wrote:Seems like these motorgliders are falling out of the sky like raindrops in the Everglades. Us Purist really don't have that wind milling prop problem and we make it home for dinner. After all the post about how much safer a motorglider is and there seems
...I'm sure that there's sufficient experiential data about the behavior andhttps://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/misc/prop.pdf
impact of windmilling props to confirm that it's worse than a stopped one...
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 8:19:01 AM UTC-8, Doug Bailey wrote:is in the 18-20:1 range. A 11:1 ratio would truly be the "plummet mode" Dave sometimes refers to, and us 26E owners would definitely notice it!
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 7:08:13 AM UTC-7, bumper wrote:
The glider's flight trace from an IGC file does not show the still air glide ratio, as wind and sink can change the achieved glide ratio over the ground. The glide ratio of the ASH26E with the mast up and gear down is well known to owners, and it
it due to a broken belt or whatever, they laying in down nets a large gain in L/D over a windmilling prop.Another major factor is whether the prop is windmilling or stopped. A windmilling prop adds almost the flat plate surface of its swept area. A large drag reduction is had by stopping to prop, and of course even more by stowing it. If one can't stop
windmilling, the leading edge of the prop is experiencing airflow, which should be a smaller cross section. Except that it's also doing "work". I'm sure that there's sufficient experiential data about the behavior and impact of windmilling props tobumperThat's a really interesting observation, and simultanously intuitive, and not to my mind. If the prop is stopped, then you have a stalled plate the shape of a prop in the airflow - so I guess the impact of that is pretty obvious. But when the prop is
Think of how much energy you would use, or work you would do, to spin the propeller at windmilling speed using your arm. That is the same amount of energy lost by the glider, in the form of drag, of the windmilling prop.
Mike
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 7:08:13 AM UTC-7, bumper wrote:is in the 18-20:1 range. A 11:1 ratio would truly be the "plummet mode" Dave sometimes refers to, and us 26E owners would definitely notice it!
The glider's flight trace from an IGC file does not show the still air glide ratio, as wind and sink can change the achieved glide ratio over the ground. The glide ratio of the ASH26E with the mast up and gear down is well known to owners, and it
it due to a broken belt or whatever, they laying in down nets a large gain in L/D over a windmilling prop.Another major factor is whether the prop is windmilling or stopped. A windmilling prop adds almost the flat plate surface of its swept area. A large drag reduction is had by stopping to prop, and of course even more by stowing it. If one can't stop
windmilling, the leading edge of the prop is experiencing airflow, which should be a smaller cross section. Except that it's also doing "work". I'm sure that there's sufficient experiential data about the behavior and impact of windmilling props tobumperThat's a really interesting observation, and simultanously intuitive, and not to my mind. If the prop is stopped, then you have a stalled plate the shape of a prop in the airflow - so I guess the impact of that is pretty obvious. But when the prop is
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 1:21:56 PM UTC-4, Dave Nadler wrote:seems to be a rash of accidents, can someone please explain this, Eric, I anxiously await your reply. OBTP
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 12:19:01 PM UTC-4, Doug Bailey wrote:Seems like these motorgliders are falling out of the sky like raindrops in the Everglades. Us Purist really don't have that wind milling prop problem and we make it home for dinner. After all the post about how much safer a motorglider is and there
...I'm sure that there's sufficient experiential data about the behavior andhttps://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/misc/prop.pdf
impact of windmilling props to confirm that it's worse than a stopped one...
Please, please, read my Guide to self-launcher operation, so I do not have to lecture you from it, chapter by chapter.@Mark - You are probably correct, but my remarks to Old Bob are mostly intended for other pilots that might be misled by his comments. In this particular case, I'm concerned some pilots might accept his comment that it's generally accepted motorgliders
Eric- Give up! You and all the Saints and Apostles are incapable of talking any sense into OBTP. He is fundamentally a stubborn old man who believes his own crap.
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 4:46:30 PM UTC-7, Mike Reid wrote:it is in the 18-20:1 range. A 11:1 ratio would truly be the "plummet mode" Dave sometimes refers to, and us 26E owners would definitely notice it!
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 8:19:01 AM UTC-8, Doug Bailey wrote:
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 7:08:13 AM UTC-7, bumper wrote:
The glider's flight trace from an IGC file does not show the still air glide ratio, as wind and sink can change the achieved glide ratio over the ground. The glide ratio of the ASH26E with the mast up and gear down is well known to owners, and
stop it due to a broken belt or whatever, they laying in down nets a large gain in L/D over a windmilling prop.Another major factor is whether the prop is windmilling or stopped. A windmilling prop adds almost the flat plate surface of its swept area. A large drag reduction is had by stopping to prop, and of course even more by stowing it. If one can't
is windmilling, the leading edge of the prop is experiencing airflow, which should be a smaller cross section. Except that it's also doing "work". I'm sure that there's sufficient experiential data about the behavior and impact of windmilling props tobumperThat's a really interesting observation, and simultaneously intuitive, and not to my mind. If the prop is stopped, then you have a stalled plate the shape of a prop in the airflow - so I guess the impact of that is pretty obvious. But when the prop
d call it "freewheeling" instead of "windmilling", because the only drag on it is the prop shaft bearing friction. That's quite small, so while it'd spin quickly, it would produce very little drag. In airplanes, the windmilling propeller is driving theThink of how much energy you would use, or work you would do, to spin the propeller at windmilling speed using your arm. That is the same amount of energy lost by the glider, in the form of drag, of the windmilling prop.
Mike@Mike Reid - I like this way of thinking about it. For the glider being discussed here (the ASH26E), the only time the propeller is likely to windmill is 5-10 seconds after it's shut down, or if the belt breaks (very, very rare). With a broken belt, I'
but does anyone have a clear aerodynamic explanation of why it should be so? S. F. Hoerner, "Fluid Dynamic Drag", pages 13-21, 22.
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 8:19:01 AM UTC-8, Doug Bailey wrote:is in the 18-20:1 range. A 11:1 ratio would truly be the "plummet mode" Dave sometimes refers to, and us 26E owners would definitely notice it!
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 7:08:13 AM UTC-7, bumper wrote:
The glider's flight trace from an IGC file does not show the still air glide ratio, as wind and sink can change the achieved glide ratio over the ground. The glide ratio of the ASH26E with the mast up and gear down is well known to owners, and it
it due to a broken belt or whatever, they laying in down nets a large gain in L/D over a windmilling prop.Another major factor is whether the prop is windmilling or stopped. A windmilling prop adds almost the flat plate surface of its swept area. A large drag reduction is had by stopping to prop, and of course even more by stowing it. If one can't stop
is windmilling, the leading edge of the prop is experiencing airflow, which should be a smaller cross section. Except that it's also doing "work". I'm sure that there's sufficient experiential data about the behavior and impact of windmilling props tobumperThat's a really interesting observation, and simultaneously intuitive, and not to my mind. If the prop is stopped, then you have a stalled plate the shape of a prop in the airflow - so I guess the impact of that is pretty obvious. But when the prop
Think of how much energy you would use, or work you would do, to spin the propeller at windmilling speed using your arm. That is the same amount of energy lost by the glider, in the form of drag, of the windmilling prop.@Mike Reid - I like this way of thinking about it. For the glider being discussed here (the ASH26E), the only time the propeller is likely to windmill is 5-10 seconds after it's shut down, or if the belt breaks (very, very rare). With a broken belt, I'd
Mike
the 18-20:1 range. A 11:1 ratio would truly be the "plummet mode" Dave sometimes refers to, and us 26E owners would definitely notice it!Buzz GravesThe glider's flight trace from an IGC file does not show the still air glide ratio, as wind and sink can change the achieved glide ratio over the ground. The glide ratio of the ASH26E with the mast up and gear down is well known to owners, and it is in
The point is a 11:1 glide ratio was not enough to get him to a landable field. That is why I am saying 10:1 with the engine out has a safe margin for normal conditions. You are saying the best glide is better than this, but who would want to use thebest glide in practice for staying safe. This is like setting the MC at 0.0. I don't believe most people practice this situation.
in the 18-20:1 range. A 11:1 ratio would truly be the "plummet mode" Dave sometimes refers to, and us 26E owners would definitely notice it!Buzz GravesThe glider's flight trace from an IGC file does not show the still air glide ratio, as wind and sink can change the achieved glide ratio over the ground. The glide ratio of the ASH26E with the mast up and gear down is well known to owners, and it is
Please, please, read my Guide to self-launcher operation, so I do not have to lecture you from it, chapter by chapter.Mark628CA, hook up to your trailer and bring that 40 year old Pegasus down to South Florida and show the OLD MAN how it 's done. At the end of the day you will probably say that stubborn old man kicked my ass. I will pay for your fuel to get here. Old
Eric- Give up! You and all the Saints and Apostles are incapable of talking any sense into OBTP. He is fundamentally a stubborn old man who believes his own crap.
Please, please, read my Guide to self-launcher operation, so I do not have to lecture you from it, chapter by chapter.Please excuse me, I almost forgot, you are the Moron from Moriarty, we met a few years back at the airport there, I was impressed with your four letter vocabulary, all words started with the letter F, sometimes you put Mother in front of the F. Old Bob,
Eric- Give up! You and all the Saints and Apostles are incapable of talking any sense into OBTP. He is fundamentally a stubborn old man who believes his own crap.
Yes, after meeting you, that's all I could come up with. Nothing has changed.Glad I made a lasting impression. OBTP
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 2:55:40 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:seems to be a rash of accidents, can someone please explain this, Eric, I anxiously await your reply. OBTP
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 1:21:56 PM UTC-4, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 12:19:01 PM UTC-4, Doug Bailey wrote:Seems like these motorgliders are falling out of the sky like raindrops in the Everglades. Us Purist really don't have that wind milling prop problem and we make it home for dinner. After all the post about how much safer a motorglider is and there
...I'm sure that there's sufficient experiential data about the behavior andhttps://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/misc/prop.pdf
impact of windmilling props to confirm that it's worse than a stopped one...
Who told you a motorglider was safer? It wasn't me, Dave Nadler, Jon Fitch, or anyone else here; in fact, it was you that argues getting a tow was tougher than a self launch. In fact, you have routinely dismissed motorglider pilots for taking the easyway, instead of taking chances as the "superior" towed pilots do.
So, to repeat myself: motorgliders are more complex, they require more awareness of the area around them, and the motor provides the means for the pilot to place himself in situations that are not easily obtainable by the towed pilot, if at all. For amost pilots, there is no reason believe they improve the pilot's safety. Please, please, read my Guide to self-launcher operation, so I do not have to lecture you from it, chapter by chapter.
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 8:35:30 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:seems to be a rash of accidents, can someone please explain this, Eric, I anxiously await your reply. OBTP
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 2:55:40 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 1:21:56 PM UTC-4, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 12:19:01 PM UTC-4, Doug Bailey wrote:Seems like these motorgliders are falling out of the sky like raindrops in the Everglades. Us Purist really don't have that wind milling prop problem and we make it home for dinner. After all the post about how much safer a motorglider is and there
...I'm sure that there's sufficient experiential data about the behavior andhttps://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/misc/prop.pdf
impact of windmilling props to confirm that it's worse than a stopped one...
easy way, instead of taking chances as the "superior" towed pilots do.Who told you a motorglider was safer? It wasn't me, Dave Nadler, Jon Fitch, or anyone else here; in fact, it was you that argues getting a tow was tougher than a self launch. In fact, you have routinely dismissed motorglider pilots for taking the
a most pilots, there is no reason believe they improve the pilot's safety. Please, please, read my Guide to self-launcher operation, so I do not have to lecture you from it, chapter by chapter.So, to repeat myself: motorgliders are more complex, they require more awareness of the area around them, and the motor provides the means for the pilot to place himself in situations that are not easily obtainable by the towed pilot, if at all. For
At least on the landing phase, motorgliders need be no safer or less safe than a towed glider. You just need to keep your finger away from the start button. That temptation has been the downfall of a few motorglider pilots. If you don't trust yourselfor your judgement, best not to have that temptation.
On spinning vs. still props, there have been several tests of this over the years, and the result is always "it depends". Not just on the things already mentioned, but how much torque the prop is absorbing. Best to stop it and fold it back, or if youweren't sure of your landing, don't get it out to begin with.
On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 9:58:54 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:...
weren't sure of your landing, don't get it out to begin with.On spinning vs. still props, there have been several tests of this over the years, and the result is always "it depends". Not just on the things already mentioned, but how much torque the prop is absorbing. Best to stop it and fold it back, or if you
Interesting observation Fitch, us PURIST must exercise better judgement and we don't have that push button to get me home for dinner. OBTPThere are no reasons to believe towed pilots have any better judgement than motorglider pilots, as there are the gifted and the clueless in each group. If getting home for dinner is your goal, then there are several ways to achieve it:
On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 5:50:57 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:you weren't sure of your landing, don't get it out to begin with.
On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 9:58:54 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:...
On spinning vs. still props, there have been several tests of this over the years, and the result is always "it depends". Not just on the things already mentioned, but how much torque the prop is absorbing. Best to stop it and fold it back, or if
No Eric, I would say my flights are anything but cautious, getting down to 600 feet over nowhere and getting up to complete a trip around 2901 is anything but cautious, maybe nuts is a better term. This whole thread should have been named anything otherInteresting observation Fitch, us PURIST must exercise better judgement and we don't have that push button to get me home for dinner. OBTPThere are no reasons to believe towed pilots have any better judgement than motorglider pilots, as there are the gifted and the clueless in each group. If getting home for dinner is your goal, then there are several ways to achieve it:
* have an engine, and hope it works (what Jon and I do)
* make arrangements for a towplane or ground crew to get you home if you don't return (what many towed pilots do)
* fly so cautiously, your risk of landing away from home is nearly zero (what you do)
Eric
On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 12:27:53 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:you weren't sure of your landing, don't get it out to begin with.
On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 5:50:57 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 9:58:54 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:...
On spinning vs. still props, there have been several tests of this over the years, and the result is always "it depends". Not just on the things already mentioned, but how much torque the prop is absorbing. Best to stop it and fold it back, or if
other than Motorgliders Be Careful, it should be, Glider Pilots Be Careful Out There. I will give it to Fitch, his statement about keeping your hand away from that start, get me home button hits close to home among this group. OBTPInteresting observation Fitch, us PURIST must exercise better judgement and we don't have that push button to get me home for dinner. OBTPThere are no reasons to believe towed pilots have any better judgement than motorglider pilots, as there are the gifted and the clueless in each group. If getting home for dinner is your goal, then there are several ways to achieve it:
* have an engine, and hope it works (what Jon and I do)
* make arrangements for a towplane or ground crew to get you home if you don't return (what many towed pilots do)
* fly so cautiously, your risk of landing away from home is nearly zero (what you do)
EricNo Eric, I would say my flights are anything but cautious, getting down to 600 feet over nowhere and getting up to complete a trip around 2901 is anything but cautious, maybe nuts is a better term. This whole thread should have been named anything
On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 1:55:14 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:if you weren't sure of your landing, don't get it out to begin with.
On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 12:27:53 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 5:50:57 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 9:58:54 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:...
On spinning vs. still props, there have been several tests of this over the years, and the result is always "it depends". Not just on the things already mentioned, but how much torque the prop is absorbing. Best to stop it and fold it back, or
other than Motorgliders Be Careful, it should be, Glider Pilots Be Careful Out There. I will give it to Fitch, his statement about keeping your hand away from that start, get me home button hits close to home among this group. OBTPInteresting observation Fitch, us PURIST must exercise better judgement and we don't have that push button to get me home for dinner. OBTPThere are no reasons to believe towed pilots have any better judgement than motorglider pilots, as there are the gifted and the clueless in each group. If getting home for dinner is your goal, then there are several ways to achieve it:
* have an engine, and hope it works (what Jon and I do)
* make arrangements for a towplane or ground crew to get you home if you don't return (what many towed pilots do)
* fly so cautiously, your risk of landing away from home is nearly zero (what you do)
EricNo Eric, I would say my flights are anything but cautious, getting down to 600 feet over nowhere and getting up to complete a trip around 2901 is anything but cautious, maybe nuts is a better term. This whole thread should have been named anything
Old Bob, a good description of the button is the "get me home" button. Also (and primarily) for me the "launch me" button. What it is NOT, and brings people to grief, is the "get me out of trouble" button. If you think of it that way, sooner or laterthe trouble will find you anyway. The start button should only be used when there will be no consequence from its failure. And a consequence of its use is ALWAYS distraction, at the least.
Towed glider pilots don't have better judgement, they just don't have the temptation of the button, and can't exercise that particular bit of bad judgement. I know a few towed glider pilots who, based on the way they fly, are very poor candidates formotorgliders - just going to get them deeper into trouble they are already prone to finding.
On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 1:55:14 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:if you weren't sure of your landing, don't get it out to begin with.
On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 12:27:53 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 5:50:57 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 9:58:54 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:...
On spinning vs. still props, there have been several tests of this over the years, and the result is always "it depends". Not just on the things already mentioned, but how much torque the prop is absorbing. Best to stop it and fold it back, or
other than Motorgliders Be Careful, it should be, Glider Pilots Be Careful Out There. I will give it to Fitch, his statement about keeping your hand away from that start, get me home button hits close to home among this group. OBTPInteresting observation Fitch, us PURIST must exercise better judgement and we don't have that push button to get me home for dinner. OBTPThere are no reasons to believe towed pilots have any better judgement than motorglider pilots, as there are the gifted and the clueless in each group. If getting home for dinner is your goal, then there are several ways to achieve it:
* have an engine, and hope it works (what Jon and I do)
* make arrangements for a towplane or ground crew to get you home if you don't return (what many towed pilots do)
* fly so cautiously, your risk of landing away from home is nearly zero (what you do)
EricNo Eric, I would say my flights are anything but cautious, getting down to 600 feet over nowhere and getting up to complete a trip around 2901 is anything but cautious, maybe nuts is a better term. This whole thread should have been named anything
Old Bob, a good description of the button is the "get me home" button. Also (and primarily) for me the "launch me" button. What it is NOT, and brings people to grief, is the "get me out of trouble" button. If you think of it that way, sooner or laterthe trouble will find you anyway. The start button should only be used when there will be no consequence from its failure. And a consequence of its use is ALWAYS distraction, at the least.
Towed glider pilots don't have better judgement, they just don't have the temptation of the button, and can't exercise that particular bit of bad judgement. I know a few towed glider pilots who, based on the way they fly, are very poor candidates formotorgliders - just going to get them deeper into trouble they are already prone to finding.
On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 11:45:08 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:or if you weren't sure of your landing, don't get it out to begin with.
On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 12:20:02 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 1:55:14 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 12:27:53 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 5:50:57 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 9:58:54 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:...
On spinning vs. still props, there have been several tests of this over the years, and the result is always "it depends". Not just on the things already mentioned, but how much torque the prop is absorbing. Best to stop it and fold it back,
anything other than Motorgliders Be Careful, it should be, Glider Pilots Be Careful Out There. I will give it to Fitch, his statement about keeping your hand away from that start, get me home button hits close to home among this group. OBTPInteresting observation Fitch, us PURIST must exercise better judgement and we don't have that push button to get me home for dinner. OBTPThere are no reasons to believe towed pilots have any better judgement than motorglider pilots, as there are the gifted and the clueless in each group. If getting home for dinner is your goal, then there are several ways to achieve it:
* have an engine, and hope it works (what Jon and I do)
* make arrangements for a towplane or ground crew to get you home if you don't return (what many towed pilots do)
* fly so cautiously, your risk of landing away from home is nearly zero (what you do)
EricNo Eric, I would say my flights are anything but cautious, getting down to 600 feet over nowhere and getting up to complete a trip around 2901 is anything but cautious, maybe nuts is a better term. This whole thread should have been named
later the trouble will find you anyway. The start button should only be used when there will be no consequence from its failure. And a consequence of its use is ALWAYS distraction, at the least.Old Bob, a good description of the button is the "get me home" button. Also (and primarily) for me the "launch me" button. What it is NOT, and brings people to grief, is the "get me out of trouble" button. If you think of it that way, sooner or
for motorgliders - just going to get them deeper into trouble they are already prone to finding.Towed glider pilots don't have better judgement, they just don't have the temptation of the button, and can't exercise that particular bit of bad judgement. I know a few towed glider pilots who, based on the way they fly, are very poor candidates
bit away from the activity. There well may come the day when you see Old Bob, The Purist taking off in my self launch sailplane, but I promise never to start the engine once the launch is completed.Fitch, you make some very good points, more people need to take your notations and exercise them more frequently. Don't fall out of you chair with my next comment, but I have no problem with self launch sailplanes, although I believe it does take a
The list is long and distinguished. OBTPOn another note I do believe that pure glider pilots must exercise better judgement, that relates to better skills than motorglider pilots, a recent tragedy may well be contributed to what you referred to as bad judgement. Old Bob, The PuristThey "must" exercise better judgement? Many of us know pilots that should not be flying motorgliders, but can manage a towed glider adequately. Do any of us know someone who should be flying motorgliders because they don't do well with a towed glider?
On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 12:20:02 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:or if you weren't sure of your landing, don't get it out to begin with.
On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 1:55:14 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 12:27:53 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 5:50:57 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 9:58:54 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:...
On spinning vs. still props, there have been several tests of this over the years, and the result is always "it depends". Not just on the things already mentioned, but how much torque the prop is absorbing. Best to stop it and fold it back,
other than Motorgliders Be Careful, it should be, Glider Pilots Be Careful Out There. I will give it to Fitch, his statement about keeping your hand away from that start, get me home button hits close to home among this group. OBTPInteresting observation Fitch, us PURIST must exercise better judgement and we don't have that push button to get me home for dinner. OBTPThere are no reasons to believe towed pilots have any better judgement than motorglider pilots, as there are the gifted and the clueless in each group. If getting home for dinner is your goal, then there are several ways to achieve it:
* have an engine, and hope it works (what Jon and I do)
* make arrangements for a towplane or ground crew to get you home if you don't return (what many towed pilots do)
* fly so cautiously, your risk of landing away from home is nearly zero (what you do)
EricNo Eric, I would say my flights are anything but cautious, getting down to 600 feet over nowhere and getting up to complete a trip around 2901 is anything but cautious, maybe nuts is a better term. This whole thread should have been named anything
the trouble will find you anyway. The start button should only be used when there will be no consequence from its failure. And a consequence of its use is ALWAYS distraction, at the least.Old Bob, a good description of the button is the "get me home" button. Also (and primarily) for me the "launch me" button. What it is NOT, and brings people to grief, is the "get me out of trouble" button. If you think of it that way, sooner or later
motorgliders - just going to get them deeper into trouble they are already prone to finding.Towed glider pilots don't have better judgement, they just don't have the temptation of the button, and can't exercise that particular bit of bad judgement. I know a few towed glider pilots who, based on the way they fly, are very poor candidates for
Fitch, you make some very good points, more people need to take your notations and exercise them more frequently. Don't fall out of you chair with my next comment, but I have no problem with self launch sailplanes, although I believe it does take a bitaway from the activity. There well may come the day when you see Old Bob, The Purist taking off in my self launch sailplane, but I promise never to start the engine once the launch is completed.
On another note I do believe that pure glider pilots must exercise better judgement, that relates to better skills than motorglider pilots, a recent tragedy may well be contributed to what you referred to as bad judgement. Old Bob, The PuristThey "must" exercise better judgement? Many of us know pilots that should not be flying motorgliders, but can manage a towed glider adequately. Do any of us know someone who should be flying motorgliders because they don't do well with a towed glider?
On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 12:20:02 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:or if you weren't sure of your landing, don't get it out to begin with.
On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 1:55:14 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 12:27:53 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 5:50:57 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 9:58:54 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:...
On spinning vs. still props, there have been several tests of this over the years, and the result is always "it depends". Not just on the things already mentioned, but how much torque the prop is absorbing. Best to stop it and fold it back,
other than Motorgliders Be Careful, it should be, Glider Pilots Be Careful Out There. I will give it to Fitch, his statement about keeping your hand away from that start, get me home button hits close to home among this group. OBTPInteresting observation Fitch, us PURIST must exercise better judgement and we don't have that push button to get me home for dinner. OBTPThere are no reasons to believe towed pilots have any better judgement than motorglider pilots, as there are the gifted and the clueless in each group. If getting home for dinner is your goal, then there are several ways to achieve it:
* have an engine, and hope it works (what Jon and I do)
* make arrangements for a towplane or ground crew to get you home if you don't return (what many towed pilots do)
* fly so cautiously, your risk of landing away from home is nearly zero (what you do)
EricNo Eric, I would say my flights are anything but cautious, getting down to 600 feet over nowhere and getting up to complete a trip around 2901 is anything but cautious, maybe nuts is a better term. This whole thread should have been named anything
the trouble will find you anyway. The start button should only be used when there will be no consequence from its failure. And a consequence of its use is ALWAYS distraction, at the least.Old Bob, a good description of the button is the "get me home" button. Also (and primarily) for me the "launch me" button. What it is NOT, and brings people to grief, is the "get me out of trouble" button. If you think of it that way, sooner or later
motorgliders - just going to get them deeper into trouble they are already prone to finding.Towed glider pilots don't have better judgement, they just don't have the temptation of the button, and can't exercise that particular bit of bad judgement. I know a few towed glider pilots who, based on the way they fly, are very poor candidates for
Fitch, you make some very good points, more people need to take your notations and exercise them more frequently. Don't fall out of you chair with my next comment, but I have no problem with self launch sailplanes, although I believe it does take a bitaway from the activity. There well may come the day when you see Old Bob, The Purist taking off in my self launch sailplane, but I promise never to start the engine once the launch is completed.
On another note I do believe that pure glider pilots must exercise better judgement, that relates to better skills than motorglider pilots, a recent tragedy may well be contributed to what you referred to as bad judgement. Old Bob, The Purist"There well may come the day when you see Old Bob, The Purist taking off in my self launch sailplane, but I promise never to start the engine once the launch is completed." Right. You believe that now, but there will be one of those days where you look
On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 4:03:16 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:back, or if you weren't sure of your landing, don't get it out to begin with.
On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 11:45:08 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 12:20:02 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 1:55:14 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 12:27:53 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 5:50:57 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 9:58:54 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:...
On spinning vs. still props, there have been several tests of this over the years, and the result is always "it depends". Not just on the things already mentioned, but how much torque the prop is absorbing. Best to stop it and fold it
anything other than Motorgliders Be Careful, it should be, Glider Pilots Be Careful Out There. I will give it to Fitch, his statement about keeping your hand away from that start, get me home button hits close to home among this group. OBTPInteresting observation Fitch, us PURIST must exercise better judgement and we don't have that push button to get me home for dinner. OBTPThere are no reasons to believe towed pilots have any better judgement than motorglider pilots, as there are the gifted and the clueless in each group. If getting home for dinner is your goal, then there are several ways to achieve it:
* have an engine, and hope it works (what Jon and I do)
* make arrangements for a towplane or ground crew to get you home if you don't return (what many towed pilots do)
* fly so cautiously, your risk of landing away from home is nearly zero (what you do)
EricNo Eric, I would say my flights are anything but cautious, getting down to 600 feet over nowhere and getting up to complete a trip around 2901 is anything but cautious, maybe nuts is a better term. This whole thread should have been named
later the trouble will find you anyway. The start button should only be used when there will be no consequence from its failure. And a consequence of its use is ALWAYS distraction, at the least.Old Bob, a good description of the button is the "get me home" button. Also (and primarily) for me the "launch me" button. What it is NOT, and brings people to grief, is the "get me out of trouble" button. If you think of it that way, sooner or
for motorgliders - just going to get them deeper into trouble they are already prone to finding.Towed glider pilots don't have better judgement, they just don't have the temptation of the button, and can't exercise that particular bit of bad judgement. I know a few towed glider pilots who, based on the way they fly, are very poor candidates
bit away from the activity. There well may come the day when you see Old Bob, The Purist taking off in my self launch sailplane, but I promise never to start the engine once the launch is completed.Fitch, you make some very good points, more people need to take your notations and exercise them more frequently. Don't fall out of you chair with my next comment, but I have no problem with self launch sailplanes, although I believe it does take a
I should have made clear I was talking about safe flying, not soaring. That is the context of this discussion, but I can see my question wasn't specific enough.The list is long and distinguished. OBTPOn another note I do believe that pure glider pilots must exercise better judgement, that relates to better skills than motorglider pilots, a recent tragedy may well be contributed to what you referred to as bad judgement. Old Bob, The PuristThey "must" exercise better judgement? Many of us know pilots that should not be flying motorgliders, but can manage a towed glider adequately. Do any of us know someone who should be flying motorgliders because they don't do well with a towed glider?
On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 11:45:08 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:you weren't sure of your landing, don't get it out to begin with.
On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 12:20:02 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 1:55:14 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 12:27:53 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 5:50:57 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 9:58:54 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:...
On spinning vs. still props, there have been several tests of this over the years, and the result is always "it depends". Not just on the things already mentioned, but how much torque the prop is absorbing. Best to stop it and fold it back, or if
other than Motorgliders Be Careful, it should be, Glider Pilots Be Careful Out There. I will give it to Fitch, his statement about keeping your hand away from that start, get me home button hits close to home among this group. OBTPNo Eric, I would say my flights are anything but cautious, getting down to 600 feet over nowhere and getting up to complete a trip around 2901 is anything but cautious, maybe nuts is a better term. This whole thread should have been named anythingInteresting observation Fitch, us PURIST must exercise better judgement and we don't have that push button to get me home for dinner. OBTPThere are no reasons to believe towed pilots have any better judgement than motorglider pilots, as there are the gifted and the clueless in each group. If getting home for dinner is your goal, then there are several ways to achieve it:
* have an engine, and hope it works (what Jon and I do)
* make arrangements for a towplane or ground crew to get you home if you don't return (what many towed pilots do)
* fly so cautiously, your risk of landing away from home is nearly zero (what you do)
Eric
the trouble will find you anyway. The start button should only be used when there will be no consequence from its failure. And a consequence of its use is ALWAYS distraction, at the least.Old Bob, a good description of the button is the "get me home" button. Also (and primarily) for me the "launch me" button. What it is NOT, and brings people to grief, is the "get me out of trouble" button. If you think of it that way, sooner or later
motorgliders - just going to get them deeper into trouble they are already prone to finding.
Towed glider pilots don't have better judgement, they just don't have the temptation of the button, and can't exercise that particular bit of bad judgement. I know a few towed glider pilots who, based on the way they fly, are very poor candidates for
bit away from the activity. There well may come the day when you see Old Bob, The Purist taking off in my self launch sailplane, but I promise never to start the engine once the launch is completed.Fitch, you make some very good points, more people need to take your notations and exercise them more frequently. Don't fall out of you chair with my next comment, but I have no problem with self launch sailplanes, although I believe it does take a
towards home and dying clouds as cirrus approaches, and then look the other direction where your friends are frolicking under sunny skies and puffy cu, a direction that will almost certainly require landing away from home if the engine isn't used. WhichOn another note I do believe that pure glider pilots must exercise better judgement, that relates to better skills than motorglider pilots, a recent tragedy may well be contributed to what you referred to as bad judgement. Old Bob, The Purist"There well may come the day when you see Old Bob, The Purist taking off in my self launch sailplane, but I promise never to start the engine once the launch is completed." Right. You believe that now, but there will be one of those days where you look
Before you answer, remember how your judgement became impaired when you stepped into the motorglider 8^)
Simple for me. Head to the puffy clouds and soaring and, when it's timeif you weren't sure of your landing, don't get it out to begin with.
to go home AND YOU'RE OVER A LANDABLE FIELD, extend the engine. If it
works, GREAT!, if not, land at that field.
Dan
5J
On 10/14/23 14:14, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 11:45:08 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 12:20:02 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 1:55:14 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 12:27:53 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 5:50:57 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 9:58:54 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote: >>>>> ...
On spinning vs. still props, there have been several tests of this over the years, and the result is always "it depends". Not just on the things already mentioned, but how much torque the prop is absorbing. Best to stop it and fold it back, or
other than Motorgliders Be Careful, it should be, Glider Pilots Be Careful Out There. I will give it to Fitch, his statement about keeping your hand away from that start, get me home button hits close to home among this group. OBTPNo Eric, I would say my flights are anything but cautious, getting down to 600 feet over nowhere and getting up to complete a trip around 2901 is anything but cautious, maybe nuts is a better term. This whole thread should have been named anythingInteresting observation Fitch, us PURIST must exercise better judgement and we don't have that push button to get me home for dinner. OBTPThere are no reasons to believe towed pilots have any better judgement than motorglider pilots, as there are the gifted and the clueless in each group. If getting home for dinner is your goal, then there are several ways to achieve it:
* have an engine, and hope it works (what Jon and I do)
* make arrangements for a towplane or ground crew to get you home if you don't return (what many towed pilots do)
* fly so cautiously, your risk of landing away from home is nearly zero (what you do)
Eric
later the trouble will find you anyway. The start button should only be used when there will be no consequence from its failure. And a consequence of its use is ALWAYS distraction, at the least.Old Bob, a good description of the button is the "get me home" button. Also (and primarily) for me the "launch me" button. What it is NOT, and brings people to grief, is the "get me out of trouble" button. If you think of it that way, sooner or
for motorgliders - just going to get them deeper into trouble they are already prone to finding.
Towed glider pilots don't have better judgement, they just don't have the temptation of the button, and can't exercise that particular bit of bad judgement. I know a few towed glider pilots who, based on the way they fly, are very poor candidates
bit away from the activity. There well may come the day when you see Old Bob, The Purist taking off in my self launch sailplane, but I promise never to start the engine once the launch is completed.Fitch, you make some very good points, more people need to take your notations and exercise them more frequently. Don't fall out of you chair with my next comment, but I have no problem with self launch sailplanes, although I believe it does take a
look towards home and dying clouds as cirrus approaches, and then look the other direction where your friends are frolicking under sunny skies and puffy cu, a direction that will almost certainly require landing away from home if the engine isn't used.On another note I do believe that pure glider pilots must exercise better judgement, that relates to better skills than motorglider pilots, a recent tragedy may well be contributed to what you referred to as bad judgement. Old Bob, The Purist"There well may come the day when you see Old Bob, The Purist taking off in my self launch sailplane, but I promise never to start the engine once the launch is completed." Right. You believe that now, but there will be one of those days where you
Before you answer, remember how your judgement became impaired when you stepped into the motorglider 8^)
On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 12:20:02 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:or if you weren't sure of your landing, don't get it out to begin with.
On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 1:55:14 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 12:27:53 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 5:50:57 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 9:58:54 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:...
On spinning vs. still props, there have been several tests of this over the years, and the result is always "it depends". Not just on the things already mentioned, but how much torque the prop is absorbing. Best to stop it and fold it back,
other than Motorgliders Be Careful, it should be, Glider Pilots Be Careful Out There. I will give it to Fitch, his statement about keeping your hand away from that start, get me home button hits close to home among this group. OBTPInteresting observation Fitch, us PURIST must exercise better judgement and we don't have that push button to get me home for dinner. OBTPThere are no reasons to believe towed pilots have any better judgement than motorglider pilots, as there are the gifted and the clueless in each group. If getting home for dinner is your goal, then there are several ways to achieve it:
* have an engine, and hope it works (what Jon and I do)
* make arrangements for a towplane or ground crew to get you home if you don't return (what many towed pilots do)
* fly so cautiously, your risk of landing away from home is nearly zero (what you do)
EricNo Eric, I would say my flights are anything but cautious, getting down to 600 feet over nowhere and getting up to complete a trip around 2901 is anything but cautious, maybe nuts is a better term. This whole thread should have been named anything
the trouble will find you anyway. The start button should only be used when there will be no consequence from its failure. And a consequence of its use is ALWAYS distraction, at the least.Old Bob, a good description of the button is the "get me home" button. Also (and primarily) for me the "launch me" button. What it is NOT, and brings people to grief, is the "get me out of trouble" button. If you think of it that way, sooner or later
motorgliders - just going to get them deeper into trouble they are already prone to finding.Towed glider pilots don't have better judgement, they just don't have the temptation of the button, and can't exercise that particular bit of bad judgement. I know a few towed glider pilots who, based on the way they fly, are very poor candidates for
Fitch, you make some very good points, more people need to take your notations and exercise them more frequently. Don't fall out of you chair with my next comment, but I have no problem with self launch sailplanes, although I believe it does take a bitaway from the activity. There well may come the day when you see Old Bob, The Purist taking off in my self launch sailplane, but I promise never to start the engine once the launch is completed.
On another note I do believe that pure glider pilots must exercise better judgement, that relates to better skills than motorglider pilots, a recent tragedy may well be contributed to what you referred to as bad judgement. Old Bob, The Purist
On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 2:45:08 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:or if you weren't sure of your landing, don't get it out to begin with.
On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 12:20:02 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 1:55:14 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 12:27:53 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 5:50:57 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 9:58:54 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:...
On spinning vs. still props, there have been several tests of this over the years, and the result is always "it depends". Not just on the things already mentioned, but how much torque the prop is absorbing. Best to stop it and fold it back,
anything other than Motorgliders Be Careful, it should be, Glider Pilots Be Careful Out There. I will give it to Fitch, his statement about keeping your hand away from that start, get me home button hits close to home among this group. OBTPInteresting observation Fitch, us PURIST must exercise better judgement and we don't have that push button to get me home for dinner. OBTPThere are no reasons to believe towed pilots have any better judgement than motorglider pilots, as there are the gifted and the clueless in each group. If getting home for dinner is your goal, then there are several ways to achieve it:
* have an engine, and hope it works (what Jon and I do)
* make arrangements for a towplane or ground crew to get you home if you don't return (what many towed pilots do)
* fly so cautiously, your risk of landing away from home is nearly zero (what you do)
EricNo Eric, I would say my flights are anything but cautious, getting down to 600 feet over nowhere and getting up to complete a trip around 2901 is anything but cautious, maybe nuts is a better term. This whole thread should have been named
later the trouble will find you anyway. The start button should only be used when there will be no consequence from its failure. And a consequence of its use is ALWAYS distraction, at the least.Old Bob, a good description of the button is the "get me home" button. Also (and primarily) for me the "launch me" button. What it is NOT, and brings people to grief, is the "get me out of trouble" button. If you think of it that way, sooner or
for motorgliders - just going to get them deeper into trouble they are already prone to finding.Towed glider pilots don't have better judgement, they just don't have the temptation of the button, and can't exercise that particular bit of bad judgement. I know a few towed glider pilots who, based on the way they fly, are very poor candidates
bit away from the activity. There well may come the day when you see Old Bob, The Purist taking off in my self launch sailplane, but I promise never to start the engine once the launch is completed.Fitch, you make some very good points, more people need to take your notations and exercise them more frequently. Don't fall out of you chair with my next comment, but I have no problem with self launch sailplanes, although I believe it does take a
On another note I do believe that pure glider pilots must exercise better judgement, that relates to better skills than motorglider pilots, a recent tragedy may well be contributed to what you referred to as bad judgement. Old Bob, The PuristHazardous thought we've all heard- Hold my beer- watch this!
Another I have discovered- I can do this-I have a motor.
I've made 3 safe landings with the engine out when the perfect start did not happen. All were calculated risks that did not work over good landing places.
FWIW
UH
Hazardous thought we've all heard- Hold my beer- watch this!
Another I have discovered- I can do this-I have a motor.
I've made 3 safe landings with the engine out when the perfect start did not happen.
All were calculated risks that did not work over good landing places.
FWIW
UH
| Sysop: | Keyop |
|---|---|
| Location: | Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, UK |
| Users: | 300 |
| Nodes: | 16 (2 / 14) |
| Uptime: | 58:06:11 |
| Calls: | 6,712 |
| Files: | 12,243 |
| Messages: | 5,355,629 |