XPost: sci.military.naval

On 8/6/2021 8:17 AM, someone wrote:

"I heard a voice shout, "A parachute is coming down..."

----

50 eyewitness accounts from Hiroshima
August 6, 1945

A little discussed fact of the Hiroshima bombing is
that there were two B-29's that flew over the city
that day. >

Hiroshima had the highest density of servicemen to
civilians in Japan. It was the Headquarters of
Field General Hata's Second General Army, built up
to oppose the US.
About 43,000 soldiers were in the city.
Many were doing their morning P.T. training
on the parade grounds when the bomb went off.

Try factual non fiction:

https://www.amazon.com/Downfall-End-Imperial-Japanese-Empire/dp/0141001461

Downfall: The End of the Imperial Japanese Empire
– May 1, 2001
by Richard B. Frank

In a riveting narrative that includes information from newly
declassified documents, acclaimed historian Richard B. Frank gives a scrupulously detailed explanation of the critical months leading up to
the dropping of the atomic bomb. Frank explains how American leaders
learned in the summer of 1945 that their alternate strategy to end the
war by invasion had been shattered by the massive Japanese buildup on
Kyushu, and that intercepted diplomatic documents also revealed the
dismal prospects of negotiation. Here also, for the first time, is a comprehensive account of how Japan's leaders were willing to risk
complete annihilation to preserve the nation's existing order. Frank's comprehensive account demolishes long-standing myths with the stark
realities of this great historical controversy.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: sci.military.naval

On 07/08/2021 02:05, a425couple wrote:

Hiroshima had the highest density of servicemen to
civilians in Japan.  It was the Headquarters of
Field General Hata's Second General Army, built up
to oppose the US.
About 43,000 soldiers were in the city.
Many were doing their morning P.T. training
on the parade grounds when the bomb went off.

Try factual non fiction:

https://www.amazon.com/Downfall-End-Imperial-Japanese-Empire/dp/0141001461

Downfall: The End of the Imperial Japanese Empire
– May 1, 2001
by Richard B. Frank

In a riveting narrative that includes information from newly
declassified documents, acclaimed historian Richard B. Frank gives a scrupulously detailed explanation of the critical months leading up to
the dropping of the atomic bomb. Frank explains how American leaders
learned in the summer of 1945 that their alternate strategy to end the
war by invasion had been shattered by the massive Japanese buildup on
Kyushu, and that intercepted diplomatic documents also revealed the
dismal prospects of negotiation. Here also, for the first time, is a comprehensive account of how Japan's leaders were willing to risk
complete annihilation to preserve the nation's existing order. Frank's comprehensive account demolishes long-standing myths with the stark
realities of this great historical controversy.

A sobering fact is that even after the dropping of 2 nuclear bombs and
the Soviet invasion of Manchuria the Japanese war cabinet was still
unable to agree on surrender and the Emperor was called on to
intervene. This is part of what he said.

<Quote>
There are those who say the key to national survival lies in a decisive
battle in the homeland. The experiences of the past, however, show that
there has always been a discrepancy between plans and performance. I do
not believe that the discrepancy in the case of Kujūkuri can be
rectified. Since this is also the shape of things, how can we repel the invaders? [He then made some specific reference to the increased destructiveness of the atomic bomb.]

It goes without saying that it is unbearable for me to see the brave and
loyal fighting men of Japan disarmed. It is equally unbearable that
others who have rendered me devoted service should now be punished as instigators of the war. Nevertheless, the time has come to bear the
unbearable. ...

I swallow my tears and give my sanction to the proposal to accept the
Allied proclamation on the basis outlined by the Foreign Minister.
</Quote>

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: sci.military.naval

On 8/6/2021 6:05 PM, a425couple wrote:

On 8/6/2021 8:17 AM, someone wrote:

"I heard a voice shout, "A parachute is coming down..."

----

50 eyewitness accounts from Hiroshima
August 6, 1945

A little discussed fact of the Hiroshima bombing is
that there were two B-29's that flew over the city
that day. >

Hiroshima had the highest density of servicemen to
civilians in Japan.  It was the Headquarters of
Field General Hata's Second General Army, built up
to oppose the US.
About 43,000 soldiers were in the city.
Many were doing their morning P.T. training
on the parade grounds when the bomb went off.

Try factual non fiction:

https://www.amazon.com/Downfall-End-Imperial-Japanese-Empire/dp/0141001461

Downfall: The End of the Imperial Japanese Empire
– May 1, 2001
by Richard B. Frank

In a riveting narrative that includes information from newly
declassified documents, acclaimed historian Richard B. Frank gives a scrupulously detailed explanation of the critical months leading up to
the dropping of the atomic bomb. Frank explains how American leaders
learned in the summer of 1945 that their alternate strategy to end the
war by invasion had been shattered by the massive Japanese buildup on
Kyushu, and that intercepted diplomatic documents also revealed the
dismal prospects of negotiation. Here also, for the first time, is a comprehensive account of how Japan's leaders were willing to risk
complete annihilation to preserve the nation's existing order. Frank's comprehensive account demolishes long-standing myths with the stark
realities of this great historical controversy.

also
On 8/7/2021 7:06 AM, Jonathan wrote:

On 8/6/2021 1:52 PM, a425couple wrote:

On 8/6/2021 8:17 AM, Jonathan wrote:

"I heard a voice shout, "A parachute is coming down..."

----

50 eyewitness accounts from Hiroshima
August 6, 1945

A little discussed fact of the Hiroshima bombing is
that there were two B-29's that flew over the city
that day. >

Hiroshima had the highest density of servicemen to
civilians in Japan. It was the Headquarters of
Field General Hata's Second General Army, built up
to oppose the US.
About 43,000 soldiers were in the city.
Many were doing their morning P.T. training
on the parade grounds when the bomb went off.

Was invading and occupying Japan really needed?

Yes, YES it was.
Demanding and getting Unconditional Surrender was
very important for the welfare of the world.

And it being soon was also very important.

Militarists had gotten the world into World War I
and caused about 20 MILLION deaths. That war
was ended with a Treaty, a negotiated truce,
that let later Miltiarists rearm, replenish, and
claim they were "stabbed in the back" and start
war again.

So, just 20 years later came World War II which
caused about 75 MILLION deaths.
The Japanese government was run by the military.
They were used to assassinating political opponents.
They even tried (and nearly succeeded) in capturing the
Emperor and continuing the war. They were very determined
to continue in power, keep their war won territory,
and continue their 'dream' of Japan.

It was absolutely necessary that they be rooted out
and the Japanese people be given a chance to
control their own fate, with assistance of Allied
and US leaders.

There is indeed evil in the world, and contrary to
your view, there have been times in the past
where leaders did the right thing.
FDR, POTUS Truman, Winston Churchill, Stalin,
and Charles de Gaulle were correct in demanding
Unconditional Surrender to stop the cycles of war.
If they were alive now, they would be very proud
that we have now gone 75 years without a world war.
You should be happy and rejoicing at that!

And yes, time was important. Japan had invaded and
their military brutally ruled Korea, Manchuria,
large portions of China, Hong Kong, Singapore,
Thailand, half of Burma, Thailand, French Indochina
(Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia), Malaya, Dutch East Indies.
Their rule was brutal and millions were starving.

"Each month that the war continued in 1945 would have
produced the deaths of upwards of 250,000 people,
mostly Asians but some westerners."

And going slow would have guaranteed the deaths
of about 100,000 American, British, and Dutch POWs.
Japan had decided to kill every one of them, rather than
ever free them. We certainly owed them better!

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: sci.military.naval

On 8/6/2021 6:05 PM, a425couple wrote:

On 8/6/2021 8:17 AM, someone wrote:

"I heard a voice shout, "A parachute is coming down..."

----

50 eyewitness accounts from Hiroshima
August 6, 1945

A little discussed fact of the Hiroshima bombing is
that there were two B-29's that flew over the city
that day. >

Hiroshima had the highest density of servicemen to
civilians in Japan.  It was the Headquarters of
Field General Hata's Second General Army, built up
to oppose the US.
About 43,000 soldiers were in the city.
Many were doing their morning P.T. training
on the parade grounds when the bomb went off.

Try factual non fiction:

https://www.amazon.com/Downfall-End-Imperial-Japanese-Empire/dp/0141001461

Downfall: The End of the Imperial Japanese Empire
– May 1, 2001
by Richard B. Frank

In a riveting narrative that includes information from newly
declassified documents, acclaimed historian Richard B. Frank gives a scrupulously detailed explanation of the critical months leading up to
the dropping of the atomic bomb. Frank explains how American leaders
learned in the summer of 1945 that their alternate strategy to end the
war by invasion had been shattered by the massive Japanese buildup on
Kyushu, and that intercepted diplomatic documents also revealed the
dismal prospects of negotiation. Here also, for the first time, is a comprehensive account of how Japan's leaders were willing to risk
complete annihilation to preserve the nation's existing order. Frank's comprehensive account demolishes long-standing myths with the stark
realities of this great historical controversy.

also
On 8/7/2021 7:06 AM, Jonathan wrote:

On 8/6/2021 1:52 PM, a425couple wrote:

On 8/6/2021 8:17 AM, Jonathan wrote:

"I heard a voice shout, "A parachute is coming down..."

----

50 eyewitness accounts from Hiroshima
August 6, 1945

A little discussed fact of the Hiroshima bombing is
that there were two B-29's that flew over the city
that day. >

Hiroshima had the highest density of servicemen to
civilians in Japan. It was the Headquarters of
Field General Hata's Second General Army, built up
to oppose the US.
About 43,000 soldiers were in the city.
Many were doing their morning P.T. training
on the parade grounds when the bomb went off.

But it's difficult to justify carpet bombing
cities from a moral or legal view.

Where in the world do you get your view of
what's "Legal"?
Do you study the lint in your belly button,
and decide that what you think is 'bad' ought
to be against the law?
That is not how laws, or treaties, are made.

Sounds like you are an ageist and sexist MF
who thinks the only people to die in wars should
be 18 to 25 year olds and their military leaders.

You want to protect the political leaders, the
civic leaders, the teachers who urge their youth
to defend their fatherland, the factory owners
who produce rifles, the plane designers who make
better fighters and bombers. the aircraft builders,
the bolt makers, the ship makers, and the atomic
scientists in Germany and Japan that were trying to
beat the US to the A-bomb.

Well, I'm glad our "carpet bombing" of Tokyo ruined
Japan's A-bomb project.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: sci.military.naval

"a425couple" wrote in message news:sepmb7110p9@news4.newsguy.com...

On 8/6/2021 6:05 PM, a425couple wrote:

On 8/6/2021 8:17 AM, someone wrote:

"I heard a voice shout, "A parachute is coming down..."

----

50 eyewitness accounts from Hiroshima
August 6, 1945

A little discussed fact of the Hiroshima bombing is
that there were two B-29's that flew over the city
that day. >

Hiroshima had the highest density of servicemen to
civilians in Japan. It was the Headquarters of
Field General Hata's Second General Army, built up
to oppose the US.
About 43,000 soldiers were in the city.
Many were doing their morning P.T. training
on the parade grounds when the bomb went off.

Try factual non fiction:

https://www.amazon.com/Downfall-End-Imperial-Japanese-Empire/dp/0141001461

Downfall: The End of the Imperial Japanese Empire
– May 1, 2001
by Richard B. Frank

In a riveting narrative that includes information from newly declassified documents, acclaimed historian Richard B. Frank gives a scrupulously
detailed explanation of the critical months leading up to the dropping of
the atomic bomb. Frank explains how American leaders learned in the summer
of 1945 that their alternate strategy to end the war by invasion had been shattered by the massive Japanese buildup on Kyushu, and that intercepted diplomatic documents also revealed the dismal prospects of negotiation.
Here also, for the first time, is a comprehensive account of how Japan's leaders were willing to risk complete annihilation to preserve the
nation's existing order. Frank's comprehensive account demolishes long-standing myths with the stark realities of this great historical controversy.

also
On 8/7/2021 7:06 AM, Jonathan wrote:

On 8/6/2021 1:52 PM, a425couple wrote:

On 8/6/2021 8:17 AM, Jonathan wrote:

"I heard a voice shout, "A parachute is coming down..."

----

50 eyewitness accounts from Hiroshima
August 6, 1945

A little discussed fact of the Hiroshima bombing is
that there were two B-29's that flew over the city
that day. >

Hiroshima had the highest density of servicemen to
civilians in Japan. It was the Headquarters of
Field General Hata's Second General Army, built up
to oppose the US.
About 43,000 soldiers were in the city.
Many were doing their morning P.T. training
on the parade grounds when the bomb went off.

But it's difficult to justify carpet bombing
cities from a moral or legal view.

Where in the world do you get your view of
what's "Legal"?
Do you study the lint in your belly button,
and decide that what you think is 'bad' ought
to be against the law?
That is not how laws, or treaties, are made.

Sounds like you are an ageist and sexist MF
who thinks the only people to die in wars should
be 18 to 25 year olds and their military leaders.

You want to protect the political leaders, the
civic leaders, the teachers who urge their youth
to defend their fatherland, the factory owners
who produce rifles, the plane designers who make
better fighters and bombers. the aircraft builders,
the bolt makers, the ship makers, and the atomic
scientists in Germany and Japan that were trying to
beat the US to the A-bomb.

Well, I'm glad our "carpet bombing" of Tokyo ruined
Japan's A-bomb project.

----------------------------
One of the justifications for carpet bombing was a low-level recon photo of
a burned-out residential area that revealed a forest of industrial drill presses standing in the ruins of the houses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_raids_on_Japan
" From February 1945, the bombers switched to low-altitude night firebombing against urban areas as much of the manufacturing process was carried out in small workshops and private homes: this approach resulted in large-scale
urban damage."

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: sci.military.naval

On 8/6/2021 6:05 PM, a425couple wrote:

On 8/6/2021 8:17 AM, someone wrote:

"I heard a voice shout, "A parachute is coming down..."

----

50 eyewitness accounts from Hiroshima
August 6, 1945

A little discussed fact of the Hiroshima bombing is
that there were two B-29's that flew over the city
that day. >

Hiroshima had the highest density of servicemen to
civilians in Japan.  It was the Headquarters of
Field General Hata's Second General Army, built up
to oppose the US.
About 43,000 soldiers were in the city.
Many were doing their morning P.T. training
on the parade grounds when the bomb went off.

-------
Many of the things you say are from very old,
and now proven incorrect sources.

And less than 10% of the casualties were soldiers.

Where in the world did you get that information from?

from Frank, page 267,
"Little Boy caught thousands of soldiers doing morning
calisthenics, It totally flattened the headquarters
of the Second General Army at Hiroshima Castle, and a
intercepted message later disclosed that the entire army staff,
from Field Marshall Hata on down had been injured. The
bomb killed the commander of the Fifty-ninth Army,
Lieutenant General Yoji Fujii, whose "burnt sword was
found alongside his charred remains."

Again, try modern well researched books.
They beat the speculation that was written
decades ago when the facts were classified.
We now KNOW what was being said around the
War Cabinet and the Emperor.

Try factual non fiction:

https://www.amazon.com/Downfall-End-Imperial-Japanese-Empire/dp/0141001461

Downfall: The End of the Imperial Japanese Empire
– May 1, 2001
by Richard B. Frank

In a riveting narrative that includes information from newly

declassified documents, acclaimed historian Richard B. Frank gives a scrupulously detailed explanation of the critical months leading up to
the dropping of the atomic bomb. Frank explains how American leaders
learned in the summer of 1945 that their alternate strategy to end the
war by invasion had been shattered by the massive Japanese buildup on
Kyushu, and that intercepted diplomatic documents also revealed the
dismal prospects of negotiation. Here also, for the first time, is a comprehensive account of how Japan's leaders were willing to risk
complete annihilation to preserve the nation's existing order. Frank's comprehensive account demolishes long-standing myths with the stark
realities of this great historical controversy.


--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: sci.military.naval

On 10/08/2021 22:11, a425couple wrote:

-------
Many of the things you say are from very old,
and now proven incorrect sources.

And less than 10% of the casualties were soldiers.

Where in the world did you get that information from?

from Frank, page 267,
"Little Boy caught thousands of soldiers doing morning
calisthenics, It totally flattened the headquarters
of the Second General Army at Hiroshima Castle, and a
intercepted message later disclosed that the entire army staff,
from Field Marshall Hata on down had been injured. The
bomb killed the commander of the Fifty-ninth Army,
Lieutenant General Yoji Fujii, whose "burnt sword was
found alongside his charred remains."

The estimate of casualties and their status has always been difficult
because there were few surviving records of who was there before the
bombing. The best estimates were for the military as detailed records of
army and naval strengths were available. The situation of civilians was complicated by the fact that many refugees and injured people from
bombings elsewhere. By the time the US and British military arrived many
of the dead had already been cremated or buried in mass graves. Others
not killed outright were evacuated after the bombing and died elsewhere.
One rather well reported case was the man who survived the Hiroshima
bombing and was evacuated to Nagasaki where he survived the dropping of
the second bomb

As I recall one of the best estimates was based on the number of ration
cards issued. In the case of Hiroshima we know it was the HQ and main
garrison of the Japanese Second General Army and fifth divison. The
relatively accurate estimates are that around 20,000 combatants were
killed. There would inevitably have been many casualties amongst
civlians employed in supporting the military.

The reality was that Hiroshima was a prime military target just as much
as was the Brooklyn Navy Yard. Lets also not forget the 130,000 or so
who died in the fire bombing of Tokyo or the 28,000 killed in Dresden
but also dont forget the millions killed by the Japanese in China,
Burma, the Phillipines, Malaya and Singapore. At the end of the day wars
are won by breaking things and killing people. We also know that as it
had not been previously bombed civil defence in Hiroshima had been
rather neglected

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: sci.military.naval

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message news:sf0irp$su6$1@dont-email.me...
...

Compare Hiroshima and Nagasaki to the Japanese reprisals for the Doolittle raid.

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/instant-articles/american-doolittle-raid.html

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: sci.military.naval

On 12/08/2021 01:25, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Keith Willshaw"  wrote in message news:sf0irp$su6$1@dont-email.me...
...

Compare Hiroshima and Nagasaki to the Japanese reprisals for the
Doolittle raid.

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/instant-articles/american-doolittle-raid.html

When I was working in Singapore in the 1980's I got talking to one old gentleman and he told me about their first introduction to Japanese
brutality. The Japanese cut their rations and when the work force went
to the HQ building to protest peacefully the Japanese garrison opened up
on them with machine guns.This was followed by the systematic arrest and shooting of anyone suspected of anti Japanese sentiment. Thousands of
ethnic Chinese were executed without a trial. Having contributed to the
China Relief Fund was considered reason enough to be executed.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: sci.military.naval

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message news:sf3bjf$i7v$1@dont-email.me...

On 12/08/2021 01:25, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message news:sf0irp$su6$1@dont-email.me...
...

Compare Hiroshima and Nagasaki to the Japanese reprisals for the Doolittle raid.

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/instant-articles/american-doolittle-raid.html

When I was working in Singapore in the 1980's I got talking to one old gentleman and he told me about their first introduction to Japanese
brutality. The Japanese cut their rations and when the work force went
to the HQ building to protest peacefully the Japanese garrison opened up
on them with machine guns.This was followed by the systematic arrest and shooting of anyone suspected of anti Japanese sentiment. Thousands of
ethnic Chinese were executed without a trial. Having contributed to the
China Relief Fund was considered reason enough to be executed.

-----------------------------
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manila_massacre

That's the type of tragedy we had to stop.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)