• Russia May Have Just Given Ukraine Terms for Ending War

    From a425couple@21:1/5 to All on Wed Sep 27 10:14:26 2023
    XPost: soc.history.war.misc, sci.military.naval

    from https://www.newsweek.com/russia-may-have-just-given-ukraine-terms-ending-war-1829980

    Russia May Have Just Given Ukraine Terms for Ending War
    BY JON JACKSON ON 9/26/23 AT 3:28 PM EDT

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    Atop Kremlin official on Saturday suggested Russia could agree to an end
    to the war in Ukraine if a key condition is met.

    During a press conference at the United Nations General Assembly,
    Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov indicated Russia would recognize Ukraine's borders prior to Moscow's invasion if Kyiv pledges to not join
    a military alliance.

    Since Russian President Vladimir Putin began the war on February 24,
    2022, he and Kremlin officials have cited various justifications for the conflict. But one of the most frequently stated reasons is Putin's
    opposition to the expansion of NATO on his country's borders, and he is
    said to be especially against Ukraine becoming a member of the military
    bloc.

    Lavrov told reporters that in 1991, Moscow "recognized the sovereignty
    of Ukraine on the basis of the Declaration of Independence, which it
    adopted upon leaving the USSR."

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    Split image of Putin and Zelensky
    Russian President Vladimir Putin (left) delivers a speech during the
    State Council's Presidium on September 21, 2023, in Veliky Novgorod,
    Russia. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky during a press conference
    on September 6, 2023, in Kyiv, Ukraine. A Kremlin official suggested
    Russia may be open to ending the war in Ukraine if Kyiv agrees to not
    join a military alliance.

    PHOTOS BY YAN DOBRONOSOV/GLOBAL IMAGES UKRAINE/GETTY IMAGES
    "One of the main points for us was that Ukraine would be a non-aligned
    country and would not enter into any military alliances," Lavrov said.
    "Under those conditions, we support the territorial integrity of this
    state."

    George Mason University Schar School of Policy and Government professor
    Mark N. Katz told Newsweek that "Ukraine's 1990 Declaration of State Sovereignty does indeed proclaim Ukraine to be a 'permanently neutral
    state that does not participate in military blocs.'

    "Lavrov's statement, then, does imply that Moscow would recognize
    Ukraine's 1990 borders if Ukraine foreswore membership in NATO."

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    Newsweek reached out to the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs via
    email for comment.

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    Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky has been pushing since the start
    of the war for his country to be made part of NATO, and his efforts have
    gained the support of key NATO officials. But even if Zelensky agreed to relinquish the bid for NATO membership in order to end the war, Ukraine
    would likely still find a sticking point on the issue of Crimea.

    Putin invaded and annexed Crimea in 2014, and Zelensky has vowed to
    reclaim the peninsula as part of his nation. Following the breakup of
    the Soviet Union, Crimea was declared Ukraine's, which has led some to speculate that Lavrov may have hinted that Russia could be willing to
    give up the region.

    Katz said that while Crimea was a province of Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic in 1990, he has a feeling that "Lavrov's statement might not be definitive, and that there may be further 'clarification' about it that
    is not so generous toward Ukraine.

    "Still, if Moscow just wants to end the war, it may be able to portray forestalling Ukraine from joining NATO as a victory even if it means
    renouncing Russian claims to occupied Ukrainian territory.

    "But I'm not sure Putin can do this as it would raise the question of
    whether the enormous casualties experienced by Russian forces in this
    conflict were worth such an agreement—assuming that Ukraine and NATO governments would agree to it."

    David Silbey, an associate professor of history at Cornell and director
    of teaching and learning at Cornell in Washington, told Newsweek that he
    found Lavrov's statement and how it relates to Crimea "ambiguous, which
    is interesting in and of itself.

    "It would have been easy for Lavrov to make the distinction clear, but
    he didn't, and he wouldn't do something like this without having
    clearance from Putin. They both have to know that this would immediately
    raise questions about Crimea."

    Even if Russia isn't willing to return Crimea to Ukraine, Lavrov's
    comments could be interpreted to mean Putin might relinquish his claim
    to the Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk and Zaporizhzhia oblasts. A year ago,
    Putin announced that the four Ukrainian regions were annexed to Russia
    in a move that the international community called illegitimate.

    "In terms of the four territories, I think, yes, it does suggest that
    the Russians are willing to give them back," Silbey said.

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    affable699
    14 hours ago

    "Lavrov told reporters that in 1991, Moscow "recognized the sovereignty
    of Ukraine on the basis of the Declaration of Independence, which it
    adopted upon leaving the USSR.".

    And they broke that deal and it was a deal that was signed by Russia,
    Ukraine, the U.S. and the U.K. for purposes of imperiali...

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    Michaelandolga
    19 hours ago

    As we begin to get into the Fall and Winter in Ukraine, I suspect
    Russia’s soldiers will fare even more poorly than they did last winter.

    Russia is running into a bare cupboards problem, running short of nearly everything. Add to that abysmal morale and it will be a bleak winter
    indeed for Russian s...

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    Florrie
    17 hours ago

    Yup, the cold winds of fear are swirling along the corridors of the
    kremlin. That's why lying lavrov has been told to run this maskirovka operation.

    The bad news for russia is that there will be no negotiations. There's
    no need for them. The position has long been made clear and unambiguous.
    The ter...

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    USDeclines2023
    18 hours ago

    If that was really the offer, Ukraine should grab the chance. Being used
    as a tool by the US to fight Russia cannot last forever. The US is
    running out of money and weapons. So are the rest of NATO's members.
    There's no way that Ukraine can win. Russia is not running out of
    weapons and they are pre...

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    Hannibal Barca
    20 hours ago

    NO, just No.

    Russia will back down, rearm and try again and again. It cannot be trusted.

    Keep the pressure on, until the original borders are reinstated and
    secured. No need for heroics.


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    Rick From CT
    16 hours ago

    I agree, Putin needs to be seen as so weakened that he couldn't attempt
    to retake Ukraine even if he wanted to. Then, Russia will need a new
    president.


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    konck
    16 hours ago

    Echo. Ukraine without the backing of NATO is a punching bag, little hope
    of re naturalizing citizens including children, suing for reparations,
    and bringing war criminals to accountability.


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    John
    18 hours ago

    NATO was never the issue in the first place. This is a trick to get
    Ukraine into a cease fire so the Russians can re-group and re-supply for
    a spring offensive. Too much is being read into Lavrov's informal remark.


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    GoldToast
    20 hours ago

    ruzzia's hurting. The talks with Kim may have not gone as expected and
    they can't afford politically to have another mass mobilization.


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    DragonDuck
    20 hours ago

    The world laughed at Russian demands in late 2021 when they first made them.

    Now Russia wants to make the same demands again after losing nearly
    300,000 soldiers, hundreds of billions in military equipment, and
    ruining its economy.

    How about... "nyet"?


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    TheRepublicIsDead
    4 minutes ago

    These are not the same demands. The Donbass, Crimea, Zaporizhe and
    Kherson are now part of the Russian Federation. That means Russia will
    only withdraw from Kharkov. And NATO has to bail out.


    Reply



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    Ghem Nemik
    20 hours ago

    No. Agreeing to that would allow Russia to regroup and do it again.


    Reply

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    Reality Sets In
    20 hours ago

    This is why they are offering it. They already know they can’t win, and
    are looking for a way out.


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    Day Watch
    20 hours ago

    Ukraine could have a defense agreement with a Coslition of the Willing
    led by the USA. The UK, Poland and some other countries could guarantee
    Ukraine against a Russian invasion.


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    Michaelandolga
    20 hours ago

    Russia’s starting to understand it will lose this war.

    However, Ukraine must not give in to any of Russia’s demands. Russia
    needs to suffer a crushing defeat in this war in order to oust Putin -
    and that can be the only equitable outcome.

    The Russian people need to rise up and liquidate this man and ...

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    DaveFromBoca
    20 hours ago

    Love the creative use of the word “liquidated”, and could not agree more with you…

    Plus, the US and NATO have benefited (at a great cost by arms donations)
    by using this tragic war as a “proving ground” for new munitions that
    have been developed but never deployed before on a real-world
    battlefield....

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    Don P
    18 hours ago

    It is irrelevant how russia spins it, Ukraine will hate russia for
    generations.

    How easy it is for you to sit safely at home and demand thousands of Ukrainian's must die to satisfy your blood lust. What Ukraine needs to
    do is what is best for them and their future security. No they cannot
    allow russ...

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    Mark Dell
    12 hours ago

    So Russian gives back the four territories it seized and Crimea too.
    After five or so years to rebuild its armed forces, military equipment,
    and produce better generals; what do you think they would do next?


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    eric zimmerman
    10 hours ago

    Ukraine kicks them in the teeth again except this time they have F-16's
    and himars to start with and a world class defense industrial base? Lol. Ukraine will probably be military powerhouse after the war. So many
    countries have invested billions of $ on defense contracts with them
    already. Idk how ...

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    Mapk
    17 hours ago

    Russian soldiers can ride personnel carriers or Ubers back to Russia but
    leave their equipment (weapons) in working order.

    High level leaders leave immediately and low level leaders oversee the departure of the troops.


    Reply

    7


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  • From Jim Wilkins@21:1/5 to All on Wed Sep 27 13:38:48 2023
    XPost: soc.history.war.misc, sci.military.naval

    "a425couple" wrote in message news:TpZQM.181118$_Lv6.23209@fx12.iad...

    from https://www.newsweek.com/russia-may-have-just-given-ukraine-terms-ending-war-1829980

    ------------------

    That sounds like trying to salvage something before they collapse and lose everything. In 1918 and 1944 Germany faked the appearance of strength before suddenly falling back toward their borders.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From a425couple@21:1/5 to Jim Wilkins on Wed Sep 27 12:32:22 2023
    XPost: soc.history.war.misc, sci.military.naval

    On 9/27/23 10:38, Jim Wilkins wrote:
    "a425couple"  wrote in message news:TpZQM.181118$_Lv6.23209@fx12.iad...

    from https://www.newsweek.com/russia-may-have-just-given-ukraine-terms-ending-war-1829980

    ------------------

    That sounds like trying to salvage something before they collapse and
    lose everything. In 1918 and 1944 Germany faked the appearance of
    strength before suddenly falling back toward their borders.


    Perhaps.....
    I doubt Russia will suddenly "collapse".

    I think they can continue for a long long time really hurting little
    Ukraine. I think Russia has seriously harmed itself and it's future,
    but will continue if Putin feels it's needed.

    If Russia will pull back out of Ukraine's borders and quit the
    missile and drone strikes,,, what's not to like?

    I agree and understand, that Ukraine and none of the rest of the
    world can depend on Russia or Putin's words or promises.

    But Ukraine has already shown they do not need to be members
    of NATO to get enough aid to bust many of the bear's teeth
    and snap off fingers and claws.

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  • From Jim Wilkins@21:1/5 to Jim Wilkins on Wed Sep 27 17:57:03 2023
    XPost: soc.history.war.misc, sci.military.naval

    "a425couple" wrote in message news:br%QM.200958$Hih7.121821@fx11.iad...

    On 9/27/23 10:38, Jim Wilkins wrote:
    "a425couple" wrote in message news:TpZQM.181118$_Lv6.23209@fx12.iad...

    from https://www.newsweek.com/russia-may-have-just-given-ukraine-terms-ending-war-1829980

    ------------------

    That sounds like trying to salvage something before they collapse and lose everything. In 1918 and 1944 Germany faked the appearance of strength
    before suddenly falling back toward their borders.


    Perhaps.....
    I doubt Russia will suddenly "collapse". -----------------------------------------
    In WW1 both Germany and Russia collapsed in part because the government lost enough support that rebellions from within could threaten to take them down.
    A military takeover of the government is much easier than victory in the
    field, an example that might have is Wagner's aborted march on Moscow. https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/mussolini-falls-from-power https://www.encyclopedia.com/people/history/japanese-history-biographies/hideki-tojo
    "But in July 1945, U.S. troops defeated the Japanese on Saipan (part of the Marianas island chain in the South Pacific) putting American bomber planes
    in range of the main Japanese islands. .. Tojo now came under great pressure
    to leave the government, and on July 18 he resigned. Harshly criticized by
    the public, who blamed him for Japan's problems, he and his wife retired to private life."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdication_of_Wilhelm_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdication_of_Nicholas_II
    The moderate (Menshevik) Communist Kerensky took charge and tried to
    continue the war but couldn't muster enough support, enabling a second revolution by Lenin and the Bolsheviks.

    Commando leader Otto Skorzeny took part in two coups and temporarily
    reversed a third by rescuing Mussolini. He personally subdued a coup in
    Austria and inflicted one on Hungary by the ruse of marching into the government castle with an "escort" parade to remove the German delegation, a parade without end that soon included tanks.

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