• Moon crash site found! NASA orbiter spots grave of private Japanese lan

    From a425couple@21:1/5 to All on Wed May 24 08:50:24 2023
    XPost: alt.astronomy

    Go to the citation for the before and after crash site photos.

    from
    https://www.space.com/japan-hakuto-r-moon-lander-crash-site-found

    Moon crash site found! NASA orbiter spots grave of private Japanese
    lander (photos)
    By Andrew Jones published about 19 hours ago
    Images from the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter appear to show separate
    chunks of debris.

    Comments (0)
    Close-up of part of the moon's gray, cratered surface captured by NASA's
    Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter.

    The Hakuto-R private Japanese moon lander’s impact site, as seen by
    NASA's Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter on April 26, 2023, the day after the attempted touchdown. (Image credit: NASA/GSFC/Arizona State University)
    A NASA lunar orbiter has spotted the final resting place of a private
    Japanese moon lander that failed in its touchdown attempt last month.

    The Hakuto-R lander, also carrying a small rover for the United Arab
    Emirates, made its landing attempt on April 25, aiming to set down in
    Atlas Crater. However, communications with the lander were lost moments
    before the expected landing. The ispace team behind the lander later
    confirmed that the lander did not safely touch down on the surface.

    Now the site of the apparent crash has been discovered in images taken
    by the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter (LRO).

    Related: Private Japanese lander sets distance record on its way to the moon

    GIF showing before-and-after views of the same gray patch of the moon's surface, with slight changes showing where Japan's private Hakuto-R
    lander crashed.

    Before and after comparison of the impact site of the private Japanese
    Hakuto-R moon lander, which attempted to touch down on April 25, 2023.
    Arrow A points to a prominent surface change with higher reflectance in
    the upper left and lower reflectance in the lower right (opposite of
    nearby surface rocks along the right side of the frame). Arrows B-D
    point to other changes around the impact site. (Image credit:
    NASA/GSFC/Arizona State University)
    On April 26, LRO acquired 10 images around the landing site with its
    Narrow Angle Cameras (NACs), and the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter Camera
    (LROC) science team set about searching for the lost lander.

    Images published by the LROC team on Tuesday (May 23) show at least four prominent pieces of debris and several small changes on the lunar
    surface at 47.581 degrees north latitude and 44.094 degrees east
    longitude, according to a team statement.

    "The central feature in the image above shows several bright pixels in
    the upper left and several dark pixels in the lower right. This is the
    opposite of nearby boulders, suggesting this could be a small crater or different parts of the lander body," the statement reads.

    "This site will be analyzed more over the coming months as LROC has the opportunity to reimage the site under various lighting and viewing
    geometries."

    Lunar Earthrise is captured by the ispace Hakuto-R mission during the
    solar eclipse of April 20.

    RELATED STORIES:
    — Amazing moon photos from NASA's Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter

     —  Private Japanese moon lander reaches lunar orbit

    — Every mission to the moon

    LRO has also imaged the sites of earlier failed landing attempts,
    including the 2019 try by the Israeli Beresheet spacecraft.

    If successful, Tokyo-based company ispace's Hakuto-R would have become
    the first private spacecraft, and the first Japanese-built vehicle, to
    land softly on the moon.

    Despite the failure, ispace is already working to get back to the moon
    and stick the landing. The company is working on its second and third
    moon missions, targeting launches in 2024 and 2025, respectively.

    Join our Space Forums to keep talking space on the latest missions,
    night sky and more! And if you have a news tip, correction or comment,
    let us know at: community@space.com.

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  • From Jim Wilkins@21:1/5 to All on Wed May 24 12:28:43 2023
    XPost: alt.astronomy

    Do you know if the crash site of Luna 15 has been found? It was a Soviet unmanned lander meant to steal the glory of the US moon landing, but instead
    it failed and was kept secret from the public, though not from NASA and
    radio telescope operators.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luna_15

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From a425couple@21:1/5 to Jim Wilkins on Wed May 24 11:42:39 2023
    XPost: alt.astronomy

    On 5/24/23 09:28, Jim Wilkins wrote:
    Do you know if the crash site of Luna 15 has been found? It was a Soviet unmanned lander meant to steal the glory of the US moon landing, but
    instead it failed and was kept secret from the public, though not from
    NASA and radio telescope operators.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luna_15


    Interesting.

    I also note,
    "The simultaneous missions became one of the first instances of Soviet–American space communication: the Soviet Union released Luna 15's flight plan to ensure it would not collide with Apollo 11, although its
    exact mission was not publicized."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Jim Wilkins@21:1/5 to Jim Wilkins on Wed May 24 17:57:10 2023
    XPost: alt.astronomy

    "a425couple" wrote in message news:yUsbM.3209712$iS99.1491496@fx16.iad...

    On 5/24/23 09:28, Jim Wilkins wrote:
    Do you know if the crash site of Luna 15 has been found? It was a Soviet unmanned lander meant to steal the glory of the US moon landing, but
    instead it failed and was kept secret from the public, though not from
    NASA and radio telescope operators.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luna_15


    Interesting.

    I also note,
    "The simultaneous missions became one of the first instances of Soviet–American space communication: the Soviet Union released Luna 15's flight plan to ensure it would not collide with Apollo 11, although its
    exact mission was not publicized."

    ------------------------

    Yet idiots still deny we went there.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From a425couple@21:1/5 to Jim Wilkins on Wed May 24 15:54:46 2023
    XPost: alt.astronomy

    On 5/24/23 14:57, Jim Wilkins wrote:
    "a425couple"  wrote in message news:yUsbM.3209712$iS99.1491496@fx16.iad...

    On 5/24/23 09:28, Jim Wilkins wrote:
    Do you know if the crash site of Luna 15 has been found? It was a
    Soviet unmanned lander meant to steal the glory of the US moon
    landing, but instead it failed and was kept secret from the public,
    though not from NASA and radio telescope operators.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luna_15


    Interesting.

    I also note,
    "The simultaneous missions became one of the first instances of Soviet–American space communication: the Soviet Union released Luna 15's flight plan to ensure it would not collide with Apollo 11, although its
    exact mission was not publicized."

    ------------------------

    Yet idiots still deny we went there.

    -------------
    Yes,,, but it seems to me they are less, and certainly less
    vocal about it.

    So we have the telescope pictures of the various Apollo
    landing sites, with the lander base, astronaut footprints
    and lunar rover tire tracks all around, I think most
    people believe.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Jim Wilkins@21:1/5 to Jim Wilkins on Thu May 25 07:41:14 2023
    XPost: alt.astronomy

    "a425couple" wrote in message news:VAwbM.3435175$9sn9.41396@fx17.iad...

    On 5/24/23 14:57, Jim Wilkins wrote:


    Yet idiots still deny we went there [moon].

    -------------
    Yes,,, but it seems to me they are less, and certainly less
    vocal about it.

    So we have the telescope pictures of the various Apollo
    landing sites, with the lander base, astronaut footprints
    and lunar rover tire tracks all around, I think most
    people believe.

    -------------------------

    I study accident reports to learn the strict logic of the professional investigators, and the motivation of the usually illogical deniers. In some cases there is reasonable cause for doubt, for example a Coke bottle that Zapruder's secretary saw fall and break on the Grassy Knoll caused a loud
    bang and vapor cloud that could be mistaken for gunfire, if you thought smokeless powder makes smoke, also the recoil of JFK's head away from the internal pressure that exploded it and the rearward spurt of blood as the
    entry wound channel snapped shut (like dropping a pebble into a puddle)
    could be mistaken as evidence of a shot from ahead. Connally was on a jump
    seat inboard of JFK, not directly ahead of him, so the "magic" bullet's path was straight. Connally himself misjudged the shot timing, as evidenced by
    the disturbance to his coat collar at Zapruder frame 224, and many hunters
    have proven that Oswald had enough time for 3 aimed shots even if lawyers couldn't do it. The black umbrella man was protesting JFK's fathers' support
    of Chamberlain.

    Few people have the hands-on welding or blacksmithing experience to know how soft and weak red-hot steel is and might believe it had to melt for the WTC
    to collapse. That led to the bogus thermite theories, since a normal fire is 1000 degrees too cool to melt steel. I've straightened a truck coil spring
    by hand after heating it to 700 degrees below melting in a forge fire. You
    can see for yourself by heating a straightened paper clip red hot over a candle.

    But one don't stand out by agreeing.

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  • From Whisper@21:1/5 to Jim Wilkins on Fri May 26 01:02:16 2023
    XPost: alt.astronomy

    On 25/05/2023 9:41 pm, Jim Wilkins wrote:
    "a425couple"  wrote in message news:VAwbM.3435175$9sn9.41396@fx17.iad...

    On 5/24/23 14:57, Jim Wilkins wrote:


    Yet idiots still deny we went there [moon].

    -------------
    Yes,,, but it seems to me they are less, and certainly less
    vocal about it.

    So we have the telescope pictures of the various Apollo
    landing sites, with the lander base, astronaut footprints
    and lunar rover tire tracks all around, I think most
    people believe.


    You need to accept that most people are very simple and stupid.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jim Wilkins@21:1/5 to Jim Wilkins on Thu May 25 12:40:28 2023
    XPost: alt.astronomy

    "Whisper" wrote in message news:646f7877$1@news.ausics.net...

    On 25/05/2023 9:41 pm, Jim Wilkins wrote:
    "a425couple" wrote in message news:VAwbM.3435175$9sn9.41396@fx17.iad...

    On 5/24/23 14:57, Jim Wilkins wrote:


    Yet idiots still deny we went there [moon].

    -------------
    Yes,,, but it seems to me they are less, and certainly less
    vocal about it.

    So we have the telescope pictures of the various Apollo
    landing sites, with the lander base, astronaut footprints
    and lunar rover tire tracks all around, I think most
    people believe.


    You need to accept that most people are very simple and stupid.

    --------------------------

    I would be more charitable and say they aren't trained in critical thinking, such as distinguishing cause from effect (chicken/egg). By third grade I noticed the teachers closely followed their scripts and couldn't handle deviations from it, such as my questions. The science teachers taught us to think for ourselves, most of the liberal arts ones had us memorize accepted dogma. Fortunately I has excellent, open-minded high school history teachers including the one Christa McAuliffe replaced. They taught me much of what I post here.

    Elon Musk's Twitter page calls out CNN's horror at uncontrolled free speech
    and thought:

    CNN: "Twitter, which once offered a platform for democratic movements in the Arab Spring, has been transformed by its new owner into a febrile circus of untamed free speech, conspiracy theories and unverifiable information."

    Just like real life.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From a425couple@21:1/5 to Jim Wilkins on Thu May 25 09:48:13 2023
    XPost: alt.astronomy

    On 5/25/23 09:40, Jim Wilkins wrote:
    "Whisper"  wrote in message news:646f7877$1@news.ausics.net...

    On 25/05/2023 9:41 pm, Jim Wilkins wrote:
    "a425couple"  wrote in message news:VAwbM.3435175$9sn9.41396@fx17.iad...

    On 5/24/23 14:57, Jim Wilkins wrote:


    Yet idiots still deny we went there [moon].

    -------------
    Yes,,, but it seems to me they are less, and certainly less
    vocal about it.

    So we have the telescope pictures of the various Apollo
    landing sites, with the lander base, astronaut footprints
    and lunar rover tire tracks all around, I think most
    people believe.


    You need to accept that most people are very simple and stupid.

    --------------------------

    I would be more charitable and say they aren't trained in critical
    thinking, such as distinguishing cause from effect (chicken/egg). By
    third grade I noticed the teachers closely followed their scripts and couldn't handle deviations from it, such as my questions. The science teachers taught us to think for ourselves, most of the liberal arts ones
    had us memorize accepted dogma. Fortunately I has excellent, open-minded
    high school history teachers including the one Christa McAuliffe
    replaced. They taught me much of what I post here.

    Elon Musk's Twitter page calls out CNN's horror at uncontrolled free
    speech and thought:

    CNN: "Twitter, which once offered a platform for democratic movements in
    the Arab Spring, has been transformed by its new owner into a febrile
    circus of untamed free speech, conspiracy theories and unverifiable information."

    Just like real life.


    Have you read "Loserthink, How untrained brains are ruining America"
    by Scott Adams ?

    more at https://www.amazon.com/Loserthink-Untrained-Brains-Ruining-America/dp/0593083520

    read it at a library or get it delivered to your door for $6.10.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jim Wilkins@21:1/5 to All on Thu May 25 18:07:02 2023
    XPost: alt.astronomy

    "a425couple" wrote in message news:hjMbM.2131454$MVg8.2059816@fx12.iad...

    Have you read "Loserthink, How untrained brains are ruining America"
    by Scott Adams ?

    more at https://www.amazon.com/Loserthink-Untrained-Brains-Ruining-America/dp/0593083520

    read it at a library or get it delivered to your door for $6.10.

    -------------------------

    Thanks.

    Have you seen this?
    https://babylonbee.com/

    It's a modern version of Mad Magazine that roasts absurdities with humor.
    The leftist version which I also read is The Onion, but they are more bitter and hateful than funny.
    https://www.theonion.com/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From kozelsm@yahoo.com@21:1/5 to Jim Wilkins on Thu May 25 19:51:33 2023
    On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 7:41:20 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:

    Few people have the hands-on welding or blacksmithing experience to know how soft and weak red-hot steel is and might believe it had to melt for the WTC to collapse. That led to the bogus thermite theories, since a normal fire is 1000 degrees too cool to melt steel. I've straightened a truck coil spring by hand after heating it to 700 degrees below melting in a forge fire. You can see for yourself by heating a straightened paper clip red hot over a candle.

    How about the photo of what looks like molten metal coming out of the side
    of the building? Someone showed that to me and said that it proved that thermite
    was in use because steel melts at about 2,500 degrees F.

    That was the first time I saw that photo and it took me about 10 seconds to say "aluminum." Melts at about 1,150 degrees F which is the temperature of ordinary combustibles (wood, paper, dried paint, carpet, plastic, etc.).

    It also looked like the molten aluminum I saw in shop class foundry in 9th grade.
    Glowing with a whitish-reddish look.

    Lots of aluminum in the planes and the buildings themselves.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jim Wilkins@21:1/5 to Jim Wilkins on Fri May 26 07:46:59 2023
    "koz...@yahoo.com" wrote in message news:7d9a9192-c80d-479d-96d3-1bdcd0a99b87n@googlegroups.com...

    On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 7:41:20 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:

    Few people have the hands-on welding or blacksmithing experience to know
    how
    soft and weak red-hot steel is and might believe it had to melt for the
    WTC
    to collapse. That led to the bogus thermite theories, since a normal fire
    is
    1000 degrees too cool to melt steel. I've straightened a truck coil spring
    by hand after heating it to 700 degrees below melting in a forge fire. You can see for yourself by heating a straightened paper clip red hot over a candle.

    How about the photo of what looks like molten metal coming out of the side
    of the building? Someone showed that to me and said that it proved that thermite
    was in use because steel melts at about 2,500 degrees F.

    That was the first time I saw that photo and it took me about 10 seconds to
    say
    "aluminum." Melts at about 1,150 degrees F which is the temperature of
    ordinary
    combustibles (wood, paper, dried paint, carpet, plastic, etc.).

    It also looked like the molten aluminum I saw in shop class foundry in 9th grade.
    Glowing with a whitish-reddish look.

    Lots of aluminum in the planes and the buildings themselves.

    -------------------------

    Molten aluminum is at the threshold of barely glowing, indoor lighting may obscure it. Molten steel on the other hand glows almost like the sun, a
    welder needs shade 5 goggles with acetylene, shade 10-11 for arc welding to safely and clearly see and control the molten puddle. The blacksmithing instructor advised me not to stare too long at steel at yellow heat, around 2000-2200F. That's also the hottest I can read with a type K thermocouple in the flame of a propane torch. The instant steel comes out of the forge flame into the air it becomes covered with black oxide.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From kozelsm@yahoo.com@21:1/5 to Jim Wilkins on Fri May 26 21:59:52 2023
    On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 7:48:42 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
    "koz...@yahoo.com" wrote in message news:7d9a9192-c80d-479d...@googlegroups.com...
    On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 7:41:20 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:

    Few people have the hands-on welding or blacksmithing experience to know how
    soft and weak red-hot steel is and might believe it had to melt for the WTC
    to collapse. That led to the bogus thermite theories, since a normal fire is
    1000 degrees too cool to melt steel. I've straightened a truck coil spring by hand after heating it to 700 degrees below melting in a forge fire. You can see for yourself by heating a straightened paper clip red hot over a candle.

    How about the photo of what looks like molten metal coming out of the side of the building? Someone showed that to me and said that it proved that thermite
    was in use because steel melts at about 2,500 degrees F.

    That was the first time I saw that photo and it took me about 10 seconds to say
    "aluminum." Melts at about 1,150 degrees F which is the temperature of ordinary
    combustibles (wood, paper, dried paint, carpet, plastic, etc.).

    It also looked like the molten aluminum I saw in shop class foundry in 9th grade.
    Glowing with a whitish-reddish look.

    Lots of aluminum in the planes and the buildings themselves. -------------------------

    Molten aluminum is at the threshold of barely glowing, indoor lighting may obscure it. Molten steel on the other hand glows almost like the sun, a welder needs shade 5 goggles with acetylene, shade 10-11 for arc welding to safely and clearly see and control the molten puddle. The blacksmithing instructor advised me not to stare too long at steel at yellow heat, around 2000-2200F. That's also the hottest I can read with a type K thermocouple in the flame of a propane torch. The instant steel comes out of the forge flame into the air it becomes covered with black oxide.

    I have not seen molten steel in person. I'll bet it also has a tremendous amount
    of radiant heat.

    I did some research on the WTC photo back then, and one theory is that it is not
    any molten metal, but perhaps something like a barrel of paint that burst open and
    provided a few seconds of flaming material falling.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jim Wilkins@21:1/5 to Jim Wilkins on Sat May 27 07:03:50 2023
    "koz...@yahoo.com" wrote in message news:e7dcb17d-3b97-4c0a-96f1-df853fced5d9n@googlegroups.com...

    On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 7:48:42 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:

    Molten aluminum is at the threshold of barely glowing, indoor lighting may obscure it. Molten steel on the other hand glows almost like the sun,

    I have not seen molten steel in person. I'll bet it also has a tremendous amount
    of radiant heat.

    I did some research on the WTC photo back then, and one theory is that it is not
    any molten metal, but perhaps something like a barrel of paint that burst
    open and
    provided a few seconds of flaming material falling.

    ------------------------------

    Molten lead was a possible candidate. https://undicisettembre.blogspot.com/2008/03/nist-confirms-ups-on-81st-floor-of-wtc2.html

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jim Wilkins@21:1/5 to All on Sat May 27 09:07:33 2023
    "koz...@yahoo.com" wrote in message news:e7dcb17d-3b97-4c0a-96f1-df853fced5d9n@googlegroups.com...

    I have not seen molten steel in person. I'll bet it also has a tremendous amount
    of radiant heat.

    ---------------------

    I wouldn't know because the first lesson in welding class was on personal protection, including not even watching from a distance without proper
    shaded eye protection. Traditional blacksmithing with only a leather apron involves lower temperatures and a small hot area partly shielded by the
    moist coal around it, plus long handled tools that keep the hands well clear
    of hot metal.

    When I was 4 and 5 years old I was allowed to watch in the small foundry
    next door, and learned a lot about aluminum sand casting, and staying alert
    to danger. The 2-man crucible holder they poured with had handles around 5
    feet long to keep them away from possible splashing or spray if the sand was too damp. That was long before OSHA so I saw the old traditional methods including hand-carving difficult details of the sand molds to match
    templates, instead of putting them on the pattern.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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