DMaybe all true, maybe not.
ennis Carroll
23h
Hard to believe they would leave the ship in that condition and the let
the report out.
Profile photo for Alex Mann
Alex Mann
Historian (2017–present)6mo
How did Moskva sink?
We are going to talk for a minute about modern warships and how they
work. I know this is a lot of technical jargon but there is a reason I
am being this detailed. Once you see the full picture, it’s jaw-dropping.
Moskva was a rare ship- a powerful warship crammed with every type of
weapon you could need. It was the Flagship of the Black Sea Fleet and
the pride of the Russian Navy.
Now with any big ship, the biggest threat is anti-ship missiles. These missiles can really do a number on ships and the bigger the target the
easier it is to hit.
So the Moskva had a 3-layered anti-air defense system. This is as
advanced if not more advance than what many modern US Warships have. It
went like this
1st layer: S-300F: These are long-range surface-to-air missiles that can intercept aircraft or missiles and destroy them
2nd Layer: 9K33 OSA: These are short range surface to air missiles to
provide defense if the S-300 fails
3rd layer: AK-630: These are Rotary cannons that fill the air with
bullets kinda like the Vulcan on US ships
On top of this, the Moskva had a large 130 mm auto-cannon,
anti-submarine missiles, and P-500 Bazalt anti-ship missiles. This ship
was loaded with more weaponry than any other ship on the seas.
So what happened? Well in summary the ship was sighted by drones and 2 Neptune anti-ship missiles were fired at the Moskva. They hit the ship
and the resulting damage eventually sank her. Pretty simple right?
Russia just claimed there was a normal fire but the pictures we see of
the ship make it clear what happened. Random fires don’t sink uber-expensive modern warships.
This leaves 2 questions.
How did these missiles penetrate the 3-layer defense system? Seriously
this system is designed from the ground up to specifically counter NATO munitions- which the Neptune 100% is
Why did damage control fail? The Moskva had state-of-the-art damage
control systems. On modern ships, these systems can allow damaged ships
to continue fighting and functioning or limp back to port. The Moskva
was built to take hits like this and keep rolling so what happened?
For a while, this was a mystery but not anymore. You see 14 days before
the Ukraine invasion an inspection of the Moskva was carried out by the Russian government and a report was filed. This is where things get
amazing.
That S-300 missile system? Well, the radar system it depended on to work interfered with communications and was turned off meaning they didn’t work. That 9KSS missile system? It hadn’t been working for months and was
totally non-functional
How about those AK-630 mini-guns? Well, 5 of the 6 had been stripped for parts, leaving only 1 functional.
That complex “3-layer defense system” was completely offline.
Ok so what about damage control?
Most of the safety equipment had been stolen and sold on the black
market. What little remained was locked up by the captain and thus unavailable in an emergency
Of the 500 required fire extinguishers- only 50 remained
Most water-tight doors either leaked or were jammed open
The control systems either didn’t work or didn’t indicate their status
to the bridge
So not only were the defense weapons busted- damage control was busted
too. That’s not even everything.
The steering system was jammed, 2 of the 4 engines were past their life
cycle and didn’t work, and the power generators didn’t work. Oh and that cool looking 130 mm gun? Hydraulic leak- NON-FUNCTIONAL.
No US Navy ship would EVER be in such a sorry state let alone sent into combat barely functional. The fact Russia sent the Moskva out to war in
this state is telling. Everything Russia has looks tough but beneath
that exterior, you find greed and incompetence.
So what sank the Moskva? Well, it’s the same thing that sunk the Kursk, blew up Chornobyl, and allowed Stalin to take power- greed,
incompetence, and arrogance.
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Antonius Budianto
Victor Belenko's book describes the don't-give-a-$#!+ attitude that
Communism created. Even as a labor camp POW Erich Hartmann had to work
only half a day, like his guards.
https://www.amazon.com/Mig-Pilot-Final-Escape-Belenko/dp/0380538687
"In addition to an exciting escape story it reveals why the Soviet Union
had to collapse of its own ineptitude, deceit, and corruption."
I have a Soviet military manual that prohibits pounding on ammunition
with a rock.
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message news:u1jjgn$32e3s$1@dont-email.me...
...
The Russians were running ancient copies of the
Vax 11. ...
---------------------
In the 80's I was on the design team for automatic semiconductor wafer
test equipment based on a VAX LSI-11. My part was designing and building
the test and calibration fixtures for the analog murement cards, plus programming the machine's self-test routines. There was one Russian
émigré on the team, tasked with something on a wirewrap card that went
into the LSI-11 card cage. The project wasn't very challenging digitally
and all but the Russian designed circuits that worked well with little
or no modification. His circuit kept needing extra components and tweaks
that outgrew the wirewrap area and spilled onto a piece of perfboard
that hung off the side by its wiring, insulated within a taped-on paper envelope. To him that was acceptable normal practice.
I may have previously mentioned another Russian engineer who showed me
how to align the lenses in their military optical equipment by bending
the frame with his fingers until he liked the result.
I spent quite a bit of time on Soviet fishing trawlers during the late
1970's and early 80's. Their sonar, fishing net transducers and radios
were really old school. Even still vacuum tubes in some gear. The good stuff went to the Soviet military.
But while at UMass Computer Science Department, we had some really top
notch Russian doctoral and post-doctoral students (one of whom is now a professor at a school in England I believe). This was of course after
the demise of the USSR.
The Russians have always had top notch theoreticians, especially in mathematics, physics, cosmology and computer science and more. Someone
said the Russians could do great theory because they didn't have the infrastructure to do the engineering that might come from such
theoretical research. Don't know if that is really true.
I was always more impressed with Russian (Soviet) resolve more than anything. "Keeps a licking and keeps on ticking" seemed to say it all.
Which makes me wary of confidently writing off the Russian effort in
Ukraine!
On 17/04/2023 20:24, Stephen Harding wrote:
I spent quite a bit of time on Soviet fishing trawlers during the lateThe problem with the Russian Army is a combination of their old
1970's and early 80's. Their sonar, fishing net transducers and radios
were really old school. Even still vacuum tubes in some gear. The
good stuff went to the Soviet military.
But while at UMass Computer Science Department, we had some really top
notch Russian doctoral and post-doctoral students (one of whom is now a
professor at a school in England I believe). This was of course after
the demise of the USSR.
The Russians have always had top notch theoreticians, especially in
mathematics, physics, cosmology and computer science and more. Someone
said the Russians could do great theory because they didn't have the
infrastructure to do the engineering that might come from such
theoretical research. Don't know if that is really true.
I was always more impressed with Russian (Soviet) resolve more than
anything. "Keeps a licking and keeps on ticking" seemed to say it all.
Which makes me wary of confidently writing off the Russian effort in
Ukraine!
weakness, the lack of a professional NCO corps and the new regime which
is basically a kleptocracy. The Russian military does have NCO's but
their role is basically just to ensure the rank and file does as they
are told.
In the 1980's I did a lot of work with the USSR in the oil and gas
industry, their main problem was a system which was very hierarchical
and positively discouraged initiative but was at least honest.
On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 12:54:43 +0100, Keith Willshaw wrote:
On 17/04/2023 20:24, Stephen Harding wrote:
I spent quite a bit of time on Soviet fishing trawlers during the lateThe problem with the Russian Army is a combination of their old
1970's and early 80's. Their sonar, fishing net transducers and radios >>> were really old school. Even still vacuum tubes in some gear. The
good stuff went to the Soviet military.
But while at UMass Computer Science Department, we had some really top
notch Russian doctoral and post-doctoral students (one of whom is now a
professor at a school in England I believe). This was of course after
the demise of the USSR.
The Russians have always had top notch theoreticians, especially in
mathematics, physics, cosmology and computer science and more. Someone >>> said the Russians could do great theory because they didn't have the
infrastructure to do the engineering that might come from such
theoretical research. Don't know if that is really true.
I was always more impressed with Russian (Soviet) resolve more than
anything. "Keeps a licking and keeps on ticking" seemed to say it all. >>>
Which makes me wary of confidently writing off the Russian effort in
Ukraine!
weakness, the lack of a professional NCO corps and the new regime which
is basically a kleptocracy. The Russian military does have NCO's but
their role is basically just to ensure the rank and file does as they
are told.
In the 1980's I did a lot of work with the USSR in the oil and gas
industry, their main problem was a system which was very hierarchical
and positively discouraged initiative but was at least honest.
It's not like things were better in the Soviet Days - One of my people
when I was running part of a project for the U.S. Navy has been the Air Warfare Officer for the Theodore Roosevelt's Carrier Battle Group. His
ship was monitoring Soviet exercises in the Med, including the Kirov and
the Slava (Later renamed Moskva) ended up in a port visit for repairs at
teh same time that he was there. (May have been Alexandria) - He noted
that not only was it the sorriest looking ship he'd ever encountered -
more rust than paint - but that not two sailors wore the same uniform.
They were all in a mix-and-mach of whatever was in the stores and sort of fit. He also noted that they had a lot of electronic deconfliction
problems - various radars tuned so that they overlapped with another
system, both same-ship and withing their flotilla. This led, during their exercises, to a lot of intra-ship radio comms screaming about how they couldn't tell whose blips were whose - as they picked up radar returns
from the other ship's transmissions.
I don't think it got better.
I've seen Russian newsreel film of the Black Gang on Moskva, at the engine control consoles - shorts and no shirts. Any casualty, fire or steam
leak, and those guys are a crispy critter or a pink mist.
Keith, given what you've noticed with Russian Industrial Culture, and the general attitude of "My Carrot, Your Stick"m I have to wonder how many of their gas line and factory explosions, and transport accidents are
deliberate action, or business as usual.
On 17/04/2023 20:24, Stephen Harding wrote:
I spent quite a bit of time on Soviet fishing trawlers during the late
1970's and early 80's. Their sonar, fishing net transducers and
radios were really old school. Even still vacuum tubes in some gear.
The good stuff went to the Soviet military.
But while at UMass Computer Science Department, we had some really top
notch Russian doctoral and post-doctoral students (one of whom is now
a professor at a school in England I believe). This was of course
after the demise of the USSR.
The Russians have always had top notch theoreticians, especially in
mathematics, physics, cosmology and computer science and more.
Someone said the Russians could do great theory because they didn't
have the infrastructure to do the engineering that might come from
such theoretical research. Don't know if that is really true.
I was always more impressed with Russian (Soviet) resolve more than
anything. "Keeps a licking and keeps on ticking" seemed to say it all.
Which makes me wary of confidently writing off the Russian effort in
Ukraine!
The problem with the Russian Army is a combination of their old
weakness, the lack of a professional NCO corps and the new regime which
is basically a kleptocracy. The Russian military does have NCO's but
their role is basically just to ensure the rank and file does as they
are told.
In the 1980's I did a lot of work with the USSR in the oil and gas
industry, their main problem was a system which was very hierarchical
and positively discouraged initiative but was at least honest.
One Soviet Engineer I got on really well with explained how that works.
If you come up with a good idea your boss will take all the credit but
if there are problems you will get all the blame. At the worst that you
used to mean going to jail or being shot for economic sabotage but in
more enlightened times working permanent night shifts at a tractor
factory in Tomsk.
A bigger problem they now have to deal with is that when Putin announced conscription the highest qualified young graduates simply left while the going was good. I worked with a Russian software engineer based in St Petersburg load his computers and server into the back of the car and
left. He is now based in Helsinki. The way they operate conscription is insane, they just made a lost of everyone under the age of 40 and put
them on the list. The result is that industrial production is falling so
fast that they are buying munitions and weapons from North Korea and
Iran. This was made worse because all the consumer goods they were
making such as Renault cars have closed as they can no longer import the engine management systems so its back to old designsfrom Lada
The only places they can sell oil to are China anndia at a price
which means they are losing money.
Another example is the English Language paper The Moscow Times, they now operate from Armenia having left Moscow to avoid censorship.
I like Russians but I hate to see what the gangsters running the country
I have done to it. I had a certain respect for the last Soviet leaders
like Yeltsin but Putin spen most of his career in the KGB spying on
students in Dresden.
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