• A Quora justifying UK bombing of Germany in WWII

    From a425couple@21:1/5 to All on Fri Apr 7 11:22:08 2023
    XPost: sci.military.naval, aalt.war.world-war-two

    James Smith
    · Thu
    And not forgetting that this had to be endorsed by Churchill & the War
    Cabinet even if they stabbed Harris in the back after the War &
    conveniently forgot over 55,000 men of Bomber Command (44.4%) had never
    come home!! Remember not one word about them in his victory speech &
    that hurt a lot of people Harris very much included!!

    Profile photo for Jules Gillespie
    Profile photo for Paul Harrison
    Paul Harrison
    · Thu
    plus Plymouth Liverpool even coventry etc

    Profile photo for Jules Gillespie
    Profile photo for Mark Gatenby
    Mark Gatenby
    · Thu
    It was more than just the lost production, it was also the diverted
    production needed to counter the growing air threat - there was huge
    increase in fighter aircraft, AAA, etc. All that defensive armament was diverted from offensive programs

    Profile photo for Jules Gillespie
    Profile photo for Ian Podmore
    Ian Podmore
    · Thu
    Albert Speer said after the raid on Hamburg that 6 more raids like that
    and the war would be over. So it was very much effective.

    Paul Salisbury
    · Thu
    Bomber Harris is a hero, he took the fight to the Nazis, I think he said
    for every German bomb that lands on UK soil he will do the same on
    Germany. This is justified. Think of all the damage the evil Germans
    did, Coventry, London, Manchester, Liverpool and other cities. Not to
    mention the destruction of Warsaw and other occupied cities. Reap what
    you sow…

    Profile photo for Jules Gillespie
    Profile photo for Erwin Dijk
    Erwin Dijk
    · 15h
    We from the Netherlands will never complain about it but it were the
    allies that bombed us the most. Not the Germans. The only difference was
    the intent behind the bombings

    Profile photo for Crispin Doyle
    Crispin Doyle
    · Thu
    Bomber Harris was probably a borderline psychopath, but these sorts of
    people find purpose in war. He had some qualities that made him a good commander - determination, persistence, & singularity of purpose for
    example, but he was too narrow minded. He was convinced that his way was
    the only way to win and nothing should stop him. Coastal Command was
    forced to fight the Battle of the Atlantic with a handful of inferior
    aircraft because Harris refused to let them have even a squadron of his
    best heavy bombers - he much preferred to bounce the rubble of German
    cities.. They would have made far more of a difference and lasted longer fighting U-boats than as strategic bombers. He also had to be given a
    direct order to pause city raids and concentrate on targets that
    supported the upcoming D-Day landings. Finally, he flat-out refused to
    mount repeated attacks on key industrial targets like synthetic fuel
    plants, even though these proved to be the most damaging to German war
    fighting capabilities. He had a notable success in the Battle of the
    Ruhr but on the debut side, the RAF went on to lose the Battle of Berlin.

    Ok, having said all this, yes war is terrible and yes the Germans
    started bombing civilian targets, but Bomber Command took it to terrible
    new levels, only surpassed by the US bombing of Japanese cities. The
    strategic bombing offensive against Germany may have been a necessary
    evil but we can still recognise that it was an appalling thing.

    Profile photo for Jules Gillespie
    Jules Gillespie
    · Thu
    I think that Coastal Command made the best use of things like B24
    Liberators and suchlike.

    Not so sure if Lancasters and Halifaxes were as well cut out for the Anti-Submarine roll.

    Profile photo for Crispin Doyle
    Crispin Doyle
    They used Liberators and the odd Flying Fortress because Harris wouldn’t
    let them have any of ‘his’ heavies. Four engines, radar, big carrying capacity (fill the bomb bays with fuel) and ease of flying were
    requirements for Coastal Command VLR (Very Long Range) aircraft. Perhaps
    the Lanc was a bit cramped but the Halifax was roomy enough.
    Profile photo for Daniel Law
    Daniel Law
    · Thu
    The synthetic fuel production was in Poland and too far for the bombers
    of Bomber Command heavily defended over an area of 32km2 [ including
    other facilities ] - A Lanchester would have to remove 1/2 the load to
    fly there and get back.

    The battle of Berlin and other German cities was as Mr Gillespie wrote
    to disperse the German anti aircraft guns to defend the Reich. 1 million Germans not at the Eastern Front - what many disregard is that the Red
    Army was at the end of its’ tether end of 1944 Spring 1945 - for evey
    German casualty there were 10 Red Army casualties - now a million fresh
    German troops trained in quick firing 88mm’s → whole sale slaughter of
    the advancing Red Army and stopping the front enabling the Wehrmacht to
    regain advantage

    The Bomber Command and the 8th US stopped the Germans moving these
    flakguns to the front - a Flakvierling was just as good at shooting down
    a plane as being used against infantry

    Crispin Doyle
    A reduced load dropped on a critically important target could well be
    more useful than a greater number of bombs dropped on lesser targets.
    I’m not disputing the enormous effort the Germans put in to defending
    against RAF and USAAF bombing raids, just pointing out that Harris was
    totally inflexible and this may have reduced Bomber Command’s overall
    impact.
    Profile photo for Kenny Broadbent
    Kenny Broadbent
    · 7h
    Not everyone who does hard things has to be mentally ill.

    Profile photo for Peter Trznadel
    Peter Trznadel
    · 1h
    After being “blitzed” and subject to the infamous “Baedeker raids” during one of which such raids, my mother was blown clear across a
    railway level crossing on the Anlaby road in Hull one night. She was not amused, She and the rest of the population who were on the receiving end
    of luftwaffe attenti…
    (more)
    Profile photo for James Smith
    James Smith
    · Thu
    And not forgetting that this had to be endorsed by Churchill & the War
    Cabinet even if they stabbed Harris in the back after the War &
    conveniently forgot over 55,000 men of Bomber Command (44.4%) had never
    come home!! Remember not one word about them in his victory speech &
    that hurt a lot of people Harris very much included!!

    Profile photo for Jules Gillespie
    Profile photo for Paul Harrison
    Paul Harrison
    · Thu
    plus Plymouth Liverpool even coventry etc

    Profile photo for Jules Gillespie
    Profile photo for Mark Gatenby
    Mark Gatenby
    · Thu
    It was more than just the lost production, it was also the diverted
    production needed to counter the growing air threat - there was huge
    increase in fighter aircraft, AAA, etc. All that defensive armament was diverted from offensive programs

    Profile photo for Jules Gillespie
    Profile photo for Ian Podmore
    Ian Podmore
    · Thu
    Albert Speer said after the raid on Hamburg that 6 more raids like that
    and the war would be over. So it was very much effective.

    Profile photo for Jules Gillespie
    Profile photo for Patricia Bromley
    Patricia Bromley
    · Thu
    Great response, thank you.

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  • From Keith Willshaw@21:1/5 to All on Sun Apr 9 16:41:49 2023
    XPost: sci.military.naval, aalt.war.world-war-two

    In 1941 the only meaningful way the UK could strike back at Germany was
    by bombing, on the ground the British Army learned its trade in North
    Africa while the Navy was fully occupied keeping the Atlantic Convoys
    viable, to be fair the USN was doing its bit. The first US casualty of
    WW2 was the USS Reuben James in Sept 1941 while escorting convoy ON 20

    In 1941 my dad found himself in Basra Iraq as a signaller attached to
    the King's Own Royal Regiment (Lancaster) relieving RAF Habbaniya. Here occcured the last biplane air war in the west with RAF Gloucester
    Gladiators defearing the Italian CR-42's

    The secret weapon for the British Army was the Portee, a 2 pounder AT
    gun mounted on a truck.

    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSE-NbfyimpZEYrN9G1b93Xz9Mr4tW8TJB2aA&usqp=CAU

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  • From a425couple@21:1/5 to Keith Willshaw on Sun Apr 9 11:55:43 2023
    XPost: sci.military.naval, aalt.war.world-war-two

    On 4/9/23 08:41, Keith Willshaw wrote:
    n 4/9/23 08:41, Keith Willshaw wrote:

    In 1941 the only meaningful way the UK could strike back at Germany was
    by bombing,

    yes


    In 1941 my dad found himself in Basra Iraq as a signaller attached to
    the King's Own Royal Regiment (Lancaster) relieving RAF Habbaniya. Here occcured the last biplane air war in the west with RAF Gloucester
    Gladiators defearing the Italian CR-42's

    Do you know where those Italian CR-42's had flown from?
    I'm just drawing a blank on where the Italians were
    based and what they might have been trying to do.

    By the way,,, related or not ---
    Did you ever take a look at Boris Johnson's "The Churchill Factor,
    how one man made history."
    I found Chapter 21 "Maker of the modern middle east" p 297 - 318
    very interesting and informative. It would be sure to be in
    your nearest library.

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  • From DAN@21:1/5 to All on Mon Apr 10 10:28:44 2023
    a425couple wrote:


    In 1941 my dad found himself in Basra Iraq as a signaller attached to
    the King's Own Royal Regiment (Lancaster) relieving RAF Habbaniya. Here
    occcured the last biplane air war in the west with RAF Gloucester
    Gladiators defearing the Italian CR-42's

    Do you know where those Italian CR-42's had flown from?
    I'm just drawing a blank on where the Italians were
    based and what they might have been trying to do.

    They flew out of Mosul.

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  • From a425couple@21:1/5 to DAN on Mon Apr 10 07:54:37 2023
    On 4/10/23 01:28, DAN wrote:
    a425couple wrote:


    In 1941 my dad found himself in Basra Iraq as a signaller attached to
    the King's Own Royal Regiment (Lancaster) relieving RAF Habbaniya. Here
    occcured the last biplane air war in the west with RAF Gloucester
    Gladiators defearing the Italian CR-42's

    Do you know where those Italian CR-42's had flown from?
    I'm just drawing a blank on where the Italians were
    based and what they might have been trying to do.

    They flew out of Mosul.

    OK, so the Italians in 1941 had a military airbase
    in northern Iraq, close to Turkey and Syria.
    Why? What military actions were they trying to
    support?

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  • From a425couple@21:1/5 to All on Mon Apr 10 08:48:23 2023
    On 4/10/23 07:54, a425couple wrote:
    On 4/10/23 01:28, DAN wrote:
    a425couple wrote:


    In 1941 my dad found himself in Basra Iraq as a signaller attached to
    the King's Own Royal Regiment (Lancaster) relieving RAF Habbaniya. Here >>>> occcured the last biplane air war in the west with RAF Gloucester
    Gladiators defearing the Italian CR-42's

    Do you know where those Italian CR-42's had flown from?
    I'm just drawing a blank on where the Italians were
    based and what they might have been trying to do.

    They flew out of Mosul.

    OK, so the Italians in 1941 had a military airbase
    in northern Iraq, close to Turkey and Syria.
    Why?  What military actions were they trying to
    support?


    OK, now I have found and read:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Iraqi_War

    selected:
    Britain was incensed that Vichy had assisted Italy and Germany in their
    attacks on the British in Iraq; attacks that would not have been
    possible if it was not for the connivance of the Vichy French.[107] The Vichyite actions ensured Britain began preparing for an invasion of
    Syria, which ultimately led to the Syria-Lebanon campaign of June–July.[106]

    Italy
    On 27 May, after being invited by Germany, 12 Italian Fiat CR.42s of the
    155.a Squadriglia (renamed Squadriglia speciale Irak) of the Regia
    Aeronautica Italiana (Royal Italian Air Force) arrived at Mosul to
    operate under German command.[6] Also present were a Savoia-Marchetti
    SM.79 and Savoia-Marchetti SM.81 acting as pathfinder aircraft, which
    were stationed in Aleppo; personnel and equipment were brought in on
    three Savoia-Marchetti SM.82s.[108] By 29 May, Italian aircraft were
    reported in the skies over Baghdad.[109] Churchill claimed that the
    Italian aircraft accomplished nothing,[110] but on 29 May near Khan
    Nuqta the Italians intercepted a flight of Hawker Audaxes escorted by
    Gloster Gladiators of No. 94 Squadron. In the resulting combat, two
    Gladiators were lost for one CR.42 shot down by Wing Commander Wightman.
    This was the final aerial battle of the Anglo-Iraqi War.[108] The SM.79
    was destroyed on the ground in Aleppo by RAF bombers. Three CR.42s were
    damaged and had to be abandoned during the Axis withdrawal from Iraq.
    The remaining Italian aircraft were evacuated at the end of May and used
    to defend Pantelleria.[111]

    Plans were drawn up to supply troops but the German high command was
    hesitant and required the permission of Turkey for passage. In the end
    the Luftwaffe found conditions in Iraq intolerable, as spare parts were
    not available and even the quality of aircraft fuel was far below the Luftwaffe's requirements. With each passing day fewer aircraft remained serviceable and ultimately, all Luftwaffe personnel were evacuated on
    the last remaining Heinkel He 111.[citation needed]










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  • From Keith Willshaw@21:1/5 to All on Sun Apr 16 18:34:25 2023
    XPost: sci.military.naval, aalt.war.world-war-two

    On 09/04/2023 19:55, a425couple wrote:

    Do you know where those Italian CR-42's had flown from?
    I'm just drawing a blank on where the Italians were
    based and what they might have been trying to do.


    They had flown in from Syria as I recall which was a Vichty French
    enclave and their intention was to support the Iraqi attack on RAF
    Habbniyah. This would cut the British Supply lines from the port of
    Basrah and the oilfields of Mosul.

    see
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria%E2%80%93Lebanon_campaign

    Fortunately the 50 or so RAF biplanes, Fairy Gladiators and Hawker
    Hind's although outnumbered won air superiority against a superior
    force and a light armoured force from what is now Jordan supported by
    Indian troops who took Basrah by sea put down the revolt.

    On their way back the Army invaded Persia (Iran) and captured Tehran and
    opened up a southern suppy route into the USSR.

    If you can find a copy, which are rarer than Hens Teeth, try and find a
    copy of The Golden Caroet by Somerset De Chair. Failing that your
    library is more likely to find you this account.


    Blood, Oil and the Axis

    Author - John Broich
    ISBN-13 978-1468313994

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  • From Jim Wilkins@21:1/5 to All on Sun Apr 16 19:21:11 2023
    XPost: sci.military.naval, alt.war.world-war-two

    "Keith Willshaw" wrote in message news:u1hbj2$2kj1b$1@dont-email.me...

    If you can find a copy, which are rarer than Hens Teeth, try and find a
    copy of The Golden Caroet by Somerset De Chair. Failing that your
    library is more likely to find you this account.

    ----------------------

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0553295802/ref=x_gr_bb_amazon?ie=UTF8&tag=x_gr_bb_amazon-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0553295802&SubscriptionId=1MGPYB6YW3HWK55XCGG2

    "SOMERSET DE CHAIR--THE "lAWRENCE" OF THE SECOND WOELD WAR!"

    There is also a similarly named children's book.

    Other exotic wartime adventures:

    https://www.amazon.com/Ayesha-Escape-Landing-Emden-Illustrations-ebook/dp/B01NABZI4C
    Machine guns are the best passport.

    https://www.amazon.com/Popskis-Private-Lt-Col-Vladimir-Peniakoff-ebook/dp/B01E81KHCW/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2TUS4FSHW760X&keywords=popskis+private+army&qid=1681686717&s=digital-text&sprefix=popski%2Cdigital-text%2C168&sr=1-1

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