• IMHO, just amazing loss of privacy, cell phones, watches, dna, autos

    From a425couple@21:1/5 to All on Sat Feb 25 09:57:14 2023
    XPost: alt.law-enforcement, seattle.politics

    In My Humble Opinion,
    It is just amazing how much privacy most citizens have just given up. Voluntarily, without court orders. Probably fair hunk out of ignorance.

    We, or our relatives, have given up DNA samples so that matches
    can be made to cell material found at crime scenes.

    From our cell phones we can most often be tracked. These records
    can go back months, or be used in real time.

    Our autos can also often be tracked. And after an accident,
    that data can be pulled up about our speeding etc.

    Many of us have watches, that can also be tracked, and they are also
    recording even our heartbeat.
    (Wife wonders were you exercising, or having sex??)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jim Wilkins@21:1/5 to All on Sun Feb 26 13:45:52 2023
    XPost: alt.law-enforcement, seattle.politics

    "a425couple" wrote in message news:_ZrKL.145257$0dpc.10453@fx33.iad...

    In My Humble Opinion,
    It is just amazing how much privacy most citizens have just given up. Voluntarily, without court orders. Probably fair hunk out of ignorance.

    We, or our relatives, have given up DNA samples so that matches
    can be made to cell material found at crime scenes.

    From our cell phones we can most often be tracked. These records
    can go back months, or be used in real time.

    Our autos can also often be tracked. And after an accident,
    that data can be pulled up about our speeding etc.

    Many of us have watches, that can also be tracked, and they are also
    recording even our heartbeat.
    (Wife wonders were you exercising, or having sex??)

    -----------------------------
    Don't you believe that 'they' know what's best for us?

    I got into electronic security in 1970 at a high level and have watched the changes, and sometimes participated on the Government side by prototyping
    the devices. I think we get what we ask for and deserve.

    JSW, watching nanny-state liberalism creep into New Hampshire. They try to
    turn us into what they moved here to get away from.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jim Wilkins@21:1/5 to All on Sun Feb 26 14:19:08 2023
    XPost: alt.law-enforcement, seattle.politics

    "a425couple" wrote in message news:_ZrKL.145257$0dpc.10453@fx33.iad... ------------------
    You might like (or hate) the sharp social commentary in Elon Musk's tweets.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Keith Willshaw@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 27 11:05:38 2023
    XPost: alt.law-enforcement, seattle.politics

    On 25/02/2023 17:57, a425couple wrote:
    In My Humble Opinion,
    It is just amazing how much privacy most citizens have just given up. Voluntarily, without court orders.  Probably fair hunk out of ignorance.

    We, or our relatives, have given up DNA samples so that matches
    can be made to cell material found at crime scenes.

    From our cell phones we can most often be tracked.  These records
    can go back months, or be used in real time.

    Our autos can also often be tracked.  And after an accident,
    that data can be pulled up about our speeding etc.

    Many of us have watches, that can also be tracked, and they are also recording even our heartbeat.
    (Wife wonders were you exercising, or having sex??)

    Well the police have been able to track autos for decades wherever there
    is a toll road for example and there are more of those in the USA and
    the UK. As for auto records they have been held by countries or states
    since the 1930's. Punchcards, sorting and counting machines were the
    core of IBM's business long before electronic computers came along.

    In truly repressive regimes the courts just fabricate any evidence they
    need anyway. When it comes to speeding etc driving records used to be
    held at city level and they knew how many driving offences you had, it
    was just done using file cards, card boxes and rolodex machines.

    As for DNA I am all in favour, cant speak for the USA but here in the UK
    DNA testing and matching has not only cleared lots oi accused people but
    caught some really evil people.

    The classic case in the UK is Colin Pitcfork who raped and killed 2
    young girls in 1983. A mentally retarded local man was arrested and
    accused of the crime but cleared by DNA testing. The researcher who
    invented the system commented that he was convinced he save an innocent
    man from jail as the individual arrested was very suggestible and
    admitted to the offence just to end the interrogation. This was the
    first ever use of DNA to catch a criminal.

    Pitchfork is still where he belongs - in jail.

    I dont own or wear a watch of any description but I do have a
    smartphone. Plenty of people either have no cellphone or just a simple
    burner phone. As for monitoring my heart I am pleased to say that at the
    age of 71 my heart is fine and I dont need medication for high blood
    pressure.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dean Markley@21:1/5 to Keith Willshaw on Mon Feb 27 04:46:29 2023
    On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 6:05:41 AM UTC-5, Keith Willshaw wrote:
    On 25/02/2023 17:57, a425couple wrote:
    In My Humble Opinion,
    It is just amazing how much privacy most citizens have just given up. Voluntarily, without court orders. Probably fair hunk out of ignorance.

    We, or our relatives, have given up DNA samples so that matches
    can be made to cell material found at crime scenes.

    From our cell phones we can most often be tracked. These records
    can go back months, or be used in real time.

    Our autos can also often be tracked. And after an accident,
    that data can be pulled up about our speeding etc.

    Many of us have watches, that can also be tracked, and they are also recording even our heartbeat.
    (Wife wonders were you exercising, or having sex??)
    Well the police have been able to track autos for decades wherever there
    is a toll road for example and there are more of those in the USA and
    the UK. As for auto records they have been held by countries or states
    since the 1930's. Punchcards, sorting and counting machines were the
    core of IBM's business long before electronic computers came along.

    In truly repressive regimes the courts just fabricate any evidence they
    need anyway. When it comes to speeding etc driving records used to be
    held at city level and they knew how many driving offences you had, it
    was just done using file cards, card boxes and rolodex machines.

    As for DNA I am all in favour, cant speak for the USA but here in the UK
    DNA testing and matching has not only cleared lots oi accused people but caught some really evil people.

    The classic case in the UK is Colin Pitcfork who raped and killed 2
    young girls in 1983. A mentally retarded local man was arrested and
    accused of the crime but cleared by DNA testing. The researcher who
    invented the system commented that he was convinced he save an innocent
    man from jail as the individual arrested was very suggestible and
    admitted to the offence just to end the interrogation. This was the
    first ever use of DNA to catch a criminal.

    Pitchfork is still where he belongs - in jail.

    I dont own or wear a watch of any description but I do have a
    smartphone. Plenty of people either have no cellphone or just a simple burner phone. As for monitoring my heart I am pleased to say that at the
    age of 71 my heart is fine and I dont need medication for high blood pressure.

    Keith, that is an excellent reply. Particularly with DNA, I just don't see how that is violating your privacy, even voluntarily. I am always astonished at the "siege mentality" some folks seem to exhibit when ever technology gives us a new way to do
    things.

    Dean

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jim Wilkins@21:1/5 to Keith Willshaw on Mon Feb 27 13:03:46 2023
    "Dean Markley" wrote in message news:d327cfea-9748-413d-b9b5-989b281281f7n@googlegroups.com...

    On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 6:05:41 AM UTC-5, Keith Willshaw wrote:
    On 25/02/2023 17:57, a425couple wrote:
    In My Humble Opinion,
    It is just amazing how much privacy most citizens have just given up. Voluntarily, without court orders. Probably fair hunk out of ignorance.

    We, or our relatives, have given up DNA samples so that matches
    can be made to cell material found at crime scenes.

    From our cell phones we can most often be tracked. These records
    can go back months, or be used in real time.

    Our autos can also often be tracked. And after an accident,
    that data can be pulled up about our speeding etc.

    Many of us have watches, that can also be tracked, and they are also recording even our heartbeat.
    (Wife wonders were you exercising, or having sex??)
    Well the police have been able to track autos for decades wherever there
    is a toll road for example and there are more of those in the USA and
    the UK. As for auto records they have been held by countries or states
    since the 1930's. Punchcards, sorting and counting machines were the
    core of IBM's business long before electronic computers came along.

    In truly repressive regimes the courts just fabricate any evidence they
    need anyway. When it comes to speeding etc driving records used to be
    held at city level and they knew how many driving offences you had, it
    was just done using file cards, card boxes and rolodex machines.

    As for DNA I am all in favour, cant speak for the USA but here in the UK
    DNA testing and matching has not only cleared lots oi accused people but caught some really evil people.

    The classic case in the UK is Colin Pitcfork who raped and killed 2
    young girls in 1983. A mentally retarded local man was arrested and
    accused of the crime but cleared by DNA testing. The researcher who
    invented the system commented that he was convinced he save an innocent
    man from jail as the individual arrested was very suggestible and
    admitted to the offence just to end the interrogation. This was the
    first ever use of DNA to catch a criminal.

    Pitchfork is still where he belongs - in jail.

    I dont own or wear a watch of any description but I do have a
    smartphone. Plenty of people either have no cellphone or just a simple
    burner phone. As for monitoring my heart I am pleased to say that at the
    age of 71 my heart is fine and I dont need medication for high blood pressure.

    Keith, that is an excellent reply. Particularly with DNA, I just don't see
    how that is violating your privacy, even voluntarily. I am always
    astonished at the "siege mentality" some folks seem to exhibit when ever technology gives us a new way to do things.

    Dean

    -------------------------

    Perhaps you think you have nothing to hide or to lose if an extreme faction gains power. Trotsky's Communist supporters felt safe until it was suddenly
    too late, as did Hitler's SA.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives
    [The purge] "also provided a legal grounding for the Nazis, as the German courts and cabinet quickly swept aside centuries of legal prohibition
    against extrajudicial killings to demonstrate their loyalty to the regime."

    https://www.history.com/topics/european-history/great-purge
    "By the mid-1930s, Stalin believed anyone with ties to the Bolsheviks or Lenin’s government was a threat to his leadership and needed to go."

    Nothing is off limits in the realm of technical espionage. I can't say more. -xyz

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dean Markley@21:1/5 to Jim Wilkins on Tue Feb 28 04:27:52 2023
    On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 1:04:45 PM UTC-5, Jim Wilkins wrote:
    "Dean Markley" wrote in message news:d327cfea-9748-413d...@googlegroups.com...
    On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 6:05:41 AM UTC-5, Keith Willshaw wrote:
    On 25/02/2023 17:57, a425couple wrote:
    In My Humble Opinion,
    It is just amazing how much privacy most citizens have just given up. Voluntarily, without court orders. Probably fair hunk out of ignorance.

    We, or our relatives, have given up DNA samples so that matches
    can be made to cell material found at crime scenes.

    From our cell phones we can most often be tracked. These records
    can go back months, or be used in real time.

    Our autos can also often be tracked. And after an accident,
    that data can be pulled up about our speeding etc.

    Many of us have watches, that can also be tracked, and they are also recording even our heartbeat.
    (Wife wonders were you exercising, or having sex??)
    Well the police have been able to track autos for decades wherever there is a toll road for example and there are more of those in the USA and
    the UK. As for auto records they have been held by countries or states since the 1930's. Punchcards, sorting and counting machines were the
    core of IBM's business long before electronic computers came along.

    In truly repressive regimes the courts just fabricate any evidence they need anyway. When it comes to speeding etc driving records used to be
    held at city level and they knew how many driving offences you had, it
    was just done using file cards, card boxes and rolodex machines.

    As for DNA I am all in favour, cant speak for the USA but here in the UK DNA testing and matching has not only cleared lots oi accused people but caught some really evil people.

    The classic case in the UK is Colin Pitcfork who raped and killed 2
    young girls in 1983. A mentally retarded local man was arrested and accused of the crime but cleared by DNA testing. The researcher who invented the system commented that he was convinced he save an innocent man from jail as the individual arrested was very suggestible and
    admitted to the offence just to end the interrogation. This was the
    first ever use of DNA to catch a criminal.

    Pitchfork is still where he belongs - in jail.

    I dont own or wear a watch of any description but I do have a
    smartphone. Plenty of people either have no cellphone or just a simple burner phone. As for monitoring my heart I am pleased to say that at the age of 71 my heart is fine and I dont need medication for high blood pressure.

    Keith, that is an excellent reply. Particularly with DNA, I just don't see how that is violating your privacy, even voluntarily. I am always
    astonished at the "siege mentality" some folks seem to exhibit when ever technology gives us a new way to do things.

    Dean
    -------------------------

    Perhaps you think you have nothing to hide or to lose if an extreme faction gains power. Trotsky's Communist supporters felt safe until it was suddenly too late, as did Hitler's SA.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives
    [The purge] "also provided a legal grounding for the Nazis, as the German courts and cabinet quickly swept aside centuries of legal prohibition against extrajudicial killings to demonstrate their loyalty to the regime."

    https://www.history.com/topics/european-history/great-purge
    "By the mid-1930s, Stalin believed anyone with ties to the Bolsheviks or Lenin’s government was a threat to his leadership and needed to go."

    Nothing is off limits in the realm of technical espionage. I can't say more. -xyz

    Well Jim, now that is expanding the scope considerably. Short answer: Of course I have something to lose. Everyone does. But the topic at hand is really irrelevant if an "extreme faction" takes power. By definition, then we ALL have something to
    lose.

    Dean

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Geoffrey Sinclair@21:1/5 to a425couple@hotmail.com on Wed Mar 1 00:30:59 2023
    XPost: alt.law-enforcement, seattle.politics

    "a425couple" <a425couple@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:_ZrKL.145257$0dpc.10453@fx33.iad...
    In My Humble Opinion,

    It is gaining physical security, but upping the risk of losing
    thought and opinion security.

    First slogan everything that people use will be misused.

    Next slogan we are all individually more powerful than
    previous generations, given the increase in knowledge.
    That includes making explosives and toxins and using
    them in the name of the cause. Or just using a vehicle
    to run over people. We have a lot of trust built into the
    system given how many people are behind you in any
    crowd, or moving past you in a vehicle making killing
    speed, or handling your food and drink. Enough people
    have been willing to be violent to the point of killing for
    what most would rate as a minor cause. Almost every
    killing has decision points that could have prevented it
    and plenty of people using hindsight to apportion blame.

    How many entertainment shows routinely have the good guys
    being given access to information without the proper authority
    and using it to save what otherwise would be lost? So why
    have the need for the authority? Or the "in your face total
    surveillance", but of the already proved to audience bad guy,
    not the innocent who finally breaks under the pressure.

    Because complete surveillance enables enforcing complete
    obedience to the rules of those doing the surveillance.
    Repressive states already do this, the new systems enable
    it to be done more efficiently.

    Best way to get there is to help make sure the people in
    power cannot lose power via the public, help this by being
    convinced the alternative will rape, loot and murder so the
    good guys can lie, cheat and steal in the name of the cause.
    Of course you are the target of the lies and are cheated and
    stolen from. The bigger the voter margin your political
    representatives have the more they are tuned to the power
    brokers, not the electorate.

    The longer any group is in power the higher the fees they
    charge, money probably, also being able to decide what
    happens according to what those in power like plus
    enforcing obedience. And even if the people at the top
    are honest and ethical, corruption gets built into the system,
    after all the people in power are blamed when things go
    wrong, even if they had nothing to do with the problem, so
    little personal benefit looking for trouble. Those in power tend
    to be told what they want to hear or what the subordinates
    think they want to hear and that accumulates.

    All organisations rapidly move to their primary duty of
    looking after the people in charge, everyone else is
    secondary. And one such protection is dealing with
    critics, starting with the standard debate, through
    overwhelming them "litigation to exhaustion", to
    harassment, private investigators, unfavourable
    publicity drops. Been around for centuries. And this
    is magnified if it is a government organisation.
    Start with anyone who has upset the local police.

    Backing off for a moment, if you have a following on
    social media it is easy to make life miserable for
    any critic. Sure you might want to tap someone on
    their electronic shoulder to say you disagree but
    humans are social animals, multiply the tap by a
    large enough number and it becomes a
    sledgehammer heading for the back of the head.
    Even if everyone is polite. And lots of people take
    the cue from "their opinion leader" to be rude or
    worse. No need for surveillance, just people power.
    Stalking comes next.

    We can communicate almost instantly to almost anyone
    almost anywhere, then comes what we say. What we use
    the information for and how much thinking we outsource is
    our decision.

    It is just amazing how much privacy most citizens have just given up. Voluntarily, without court orders. Probably fair hunk out of ignorance.

    Or necessity, like the loyalty discounts making ends meet.

    Of course while the publicity says best pricing for you the data
    can enable the seller to obtain best price for them. Sort of like
    being able to read a customer's body language to know how
    much they really want an item but with more sales people
    likely to be able to tell correctly.

    Use electronic money, starting with credit cards a few generations
    ago now, less chance of loss if you lose your purse or wallet.

    We, or our relatives, have given up DNA samples so that matches
    can be made to cell material found at crime scenes.

    That is a social decision, when can law enforcement query the
    non law enforcement data sets. When can law enforcement
    take and keep relevant samples. Also what checks are in the
    system, given humans will make mistakes.

    From our cell phones we can most often be tracked. These records
    can go back months, or be used in real time.

    Back in the day there were all those letter intercept operations.

    The slogan to remember is the computer never forgets.

    The use of public cameras recording the area. Evidence
    closer to real time gives a better chance of a good outcome.
    Police learn rapidly eye witnesses are usually not.

    Our autos can also often be tracked. And after an accident,
    that data can be pulled up about our speeding etc.

    How many horse and carts had registration numbers?

    Many of us have watches, that can also be tracked, and they are also recording even our heartbeat.

    If you want to stay in touch people have to know where
    you are.

    (Wife wonders were you exercising, or having sex??)

    If she cannot tell the difference what has been going on recently? :-)

    In a more complex world you need more advice on what
    choices there are and which is best for you. Someone has
    to know enough about you to provide the advice. At the
    same time the system needs to tell you what the advisor's
    strengths and weaknesses are, otherwise it increases the
    chances of exploitation.

    We are increasing physical security, your watch tells the
    world you are having a medical episode, or you can call
    emergency from where you are, the auto license scanners
    pick up more of the unregistered and more likely unsafe
    vehicles and similar for unregistered drivers.

    Cameras everywhere give plenty of evidence. Catching
    those who do the crimes of violence, theft etc. is much more
    likely, and the chance of being caught is the biggest deterrent.

    Those in power tend to love anarchists, the ones who
    turn up to demonstrations to have a fight. That tends
    to reduce the number of protestors ("See only a noisy
    minority") or cause trouble ("See only a violent minority")
    making it easier to ignore them. Less chance of hijack,
    more chance for large peaceful protest.

    More physical security can mean more political security,
    feeling safe to attend events day or night while expressing
    yourself and it can be used to give the powerful more job
    security and power. It will do both.

    Geoffrey Sinclair
    Remove the nb for email.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jim Wilkins@21:1/5 to All on Tue Feb 28 10:12:08 2023
    "Dean Markley" wrote in message news:376ade8e-3f7f-4530-86dc-1b74315f7d02n@googlegroups.com...

    Well Jim, now that is expanding the scope considerably. Short answer: Of course I have something to lose. Everyone does. But the topic at hand is really irrelevant if an "extreme faction" takes power. By definition, then
    we ALL have something to lose.

    Dean

    ---------------------

    A totalitarian government can't survive without substantial popular support. Fascist Spain lasted until Franco died at 82 of natural causes. Stalin still has a high rating. North Korea, Iran and Venezuela haven't collapsed yet. https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/04/16/stalins-approval-rating-among-russians-hits-record-high-poll-a65245

    The US has legal precedents for allowing groups to practice what others
    might consider extremist, examples are Kiryas Joel, the Shakers and other strict religious communes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_utopian_communities

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/citizen-militias-in-the-u-s-are-moving-toward-more-violent-extremism/

    https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/06/antifa-movement-anti-trump-politics-nazi/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jim Wilkins@21:1/5 to All on Tue Feb 28 13:16:21 2023
    "Dean Markley" wrote in message news:376ade8e-3f7f-4530-86dc-1b74315f7d02n@googlegroups.com...

    Well Jim, now that is expanding the scope considerably. Short answer: Of course I have something to lose. Everyone does. But the topic at hand is really irrelevant if an "extreme faction" takes power. By definition, then
    we ALL have something to lose.

    Dean

    -------------------------

    New Hampshire is on the front line of the struggle between our traditional self-reliance and demands for more government support and control, brought
    in by refugees from Massachusetts. We often have restrictive measures added
    by petition to the town warrant (budget) that we all debate and vote on at
    town meetings, so the issue is more than academic for me, I can and do
    directly influence local and occasionally state governmental actions.

    The Town Meeting discusses and within limits can amend the warrant. A
    general election later approves or rejects each article. We participants develop a good understanding of the parliamentary procedure that generally maintains order despite strong differences of opinion.

    We in NH also have direct access to Presidential candidates who hold many in-person meetings during the primary. The Republicans discuss their plans
    and mingle in numerous small gatherings with the voters, while the Democrats dictate speeches to fewer and larger pre-screened audiences. I've attended
    both and talk to the more accessible Republican candidates and the big name supporters of the Democrats, who aren't guarded like the candidate.
    Archibald Cox told me how he actually admired and respected Nixon while prosecuting him.

    I think it's significant that the Democrats choose to speak from up on the stage, the Republicans (except Romney) from down on the floor with the audience, often surrounded by it. My position is that people who don't trust
    me can't properly represent me.

    The left and particularly the educational establishment are far too eager to abandon popular democracy if they can't control it. I've been trying to
    gently persuade the high school principal that despite its challenges,
    popular democracy beats all other alternatives, and more particularly the relatively modest attendance that proposes and votes on amendments
    incorporates the most concerned citizens. He is in the best position of
    anyone to increase civic awareness and participation by the next generation. -jsw

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Keith Willshaw@21:1/5 to Jim Wilkins on Thu Mar 2 23:45:19 2023
    On 27/02/2023 18:03, Jim Wilkins wrote:
    ------------------------

    Perhaps you think you have nothing to hide or to lose if an extreme
    faction gains power. Trotsky's Communist supporters felt safe until it
    was suddenly too late, as did Hitler's SA.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives
    [The purge] "also provided a legal grounding for the Nazis, as the
    German courts and cabinet quickly swept aside centuries of legal
    prohibition against extrajudicial killings to demonstrate their loyalty
    to the regime."

    https://www.history.com/topics/european-history/great-purge
    "By the mid-1930s, Stalin believed anyone with ties to the Bolsheviks or Lenin’s government was a threat to his leadership and needed to go."

    Nothing is off limits in the realm of technical espionage. I can't say
    more.
    -xyz

    If you manage to ressurect Hitler or Stalin let me know, in the meantime
    as a British Citizen I would suggest you have more to worry about than
    I, after all it was a US Presidential Candidate who tried to overthrow
    an election. I will be dammed if I get panicked by scaremongers.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)