• Re: NYT - The Mask Mandates Did Nothing. Will Any Lessons Be Learned?

    From a425couple@21:1/5 to All on Wed Feb 22 10:00:20 2023
    XPost: or.politics, ca.politics, seattle.politics
    XPost: alt.law-enforcement

    On 2/22/23 09:40, a425couple wrote:
    New York Times
    Opinion | The Mask Mandates Did Nothing. Will Any Lessons Be Learned?
    16 hours ago
    Opinion

    After all we have been told,,, that is a bit unnerving.

    OPINION
    BRET STEPHENS

    The Mask Mandates Did Nothing. Will Any Lessons Be Learned?
    Feb. 21, 2023
    A collage of nine photographs of dirty masks discarded on the street. Credit...Benjamin Lowy

    Give this article

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    Bret Stephens
    By Bret Stephens
    Opinion Columnist

    The most rigorous and comprehensive analysis of scientific studies
    conducted on the efficacy of masks for reducing the spread of
    respiratory illnesses — including Covid-19 — was published late last
    month. Its conclusions, said Tom Jefferson, the Oxford epidemiologist
    who is its lead author, were unambiguous.

    “There is just no evidence that they” — masks — “make any difference,”
    he told the journalist Maryanne Demasi. “Full stop.”

    But, wait, hold on. What about N-95 masks, as opposed to lower-quality
    surgical or cloth masks?

    “Makes no difference — none of it,” said Jefferson.

    What about the studies that initially persuaded policymakers to impose
    mask mandates?

    “They were convinced by non-randomized studies, flawed observational studies.”

    What about the utility of masks in conjunction with other preventive
    measures, such as hand hygiene, physical distancing or air filtration?


    “There’s no evidence that many of these things make any difference.”

    These observations don’t come from just anywhere. Jefferson and 11
    colleagues conducted the study for Cochrane, a British nonprofit that is
    widely considered the gold standard for its reviews of health care data.
    The conclusions were based on 78 randomized controlled trials, six of
    them during the Covid pandemic, with a total of 610,872 participants in multiple countries. And they track what has been widely observed in the
    United States: States with mask mandates fared no better against Covid
    than those without.

    Dig deeper into the moment.

    No study — or study of studies — is ever perfect. Science is never absolutely settled. What’s more, the analysis does not prove that proper masks, properly worn, had no benefit at an individual level. People may
    have good personal reasons to wear masks, and they may have the
    discipline to wear them consistently. Their choices are their own.

    But when it comes to the population-level benefits of masking, the
    verdict is in: Mask mandates were a bust. Those skeptics who were
    furiously mocked as cranks and occasionally censored as “misinformers”
    for opposing mandates were right. The mainstream experts and pundits who supported mandates were wrong. In a better world, it would behoove the
    latter group to acknowledge their error, along with its considerable
    physical, psychological, pedagogical and political costs.

    Don’t count on it. In congressional testimony this month, Rochelle
    Walensky, director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention,
    called into question the Cochrane analysis’s reliance on a small number
    of Covid-specific randomized controlled trials and insisted that her
    agency’s guidance on masking in schools wouldn’t change. If she ever wonders why respect for the C.D.C. keeps falling, she could look to
    herself, and resign, and leave it to someone else to reorganize her agency.

    That, too, probably won’t happen: We no longer live in a culture in
    which resignation is seen as the honorable course for public officials
    who fail in their jobs.

    But the costs go deeper. When people say they “trust the science,” what they presumably mean is that science is rational, empirical, rigorous, receptive to new information, sensitive to competing concerns and risks.
    Also: humble, transparent, open to criticism, honest about what it
    doesn’t know, willing to admit error.

    The C.D.C.’s increasingly mindless adherence to its masking guidance is
    none of those things. It isn’t merely undermining the trust it requires
    to operate as an effective public institution. It is turning itself into
    an unwitting accomplice to the genuine enemies of reason and science — conspiracy theorists and quack-cure peddlers — by so badly representing
    the values and practices that science is supposed to exemplify.

    It also betrays the technocratic mind-set that has the unpleasant habit
    of assuming that nothing is ever wrong with the bureaucracy’s well-laid
    plans — provided nobody gets in its way, nobody has a dissenting point
    of view, everyone does exactly what it asks, and for as long as
    officialdom demands. This is the mentality that once believed that China provided a highly successful model for pandemic response.

    Yet there was never a chance that mask mandates in the United States
    would get anywhere close to 100 percent compliance, or that people would
    or could wear masks in a way that would meaningfully reduce
    transmission. Part of the reason is specific to American habits and
    culture; part of it to constitutional limits on government power; part
    of it to human nature; part of it to competing social and economic
    necessities; part of it to the evolution of the virus itself.

    But whatever the reason, mask mandates were a fool’s errand from the
    start. They may have created a false sense of safety — and thus
    permission to resume semi-normal life. They did almost nothing to
    advance safety itself. The Cochrane report ought to be the final nail in
    this particular coffin.

    There’s a final lesson. The last justification for masks is that, even
    if they proved to be ineffective, they seemed like a relatively
    low-cost, intuitively effective way of doing something against the virus
    in the early days of the pandemic. But “do something” is not science,
    and it shouldn’t have been public policy. And the people who had the
    courage to say as much deserved to be listened to, not treated with
    contempt. They may not ever get the apology they deserve, but
    vindication ought to be enough.


    excerpted from middle
    Questions about the pandemic
    Card 1 of 4
    When will the pandemic end? We asked three experts — two immunologists
    and an epidemiologist — to weigh in on this and some of the hundreds of
    other questions we’ve gathered from readers recently, including how to
    make sense of booster and test timing, recommendations for children,
    whether getting covid is just inevitable and other pressing queries.

    How concerning are things like long covid and reinfections? That’s a difficult question to answer definitely, writes the Opinion columnist
    Zeynep Tufekci, because of the lack of adequate research and support for sufferers, as well as confusion about what the condition even is. She
    has suggestions for how to approach the problem. Regarding another
    ongoing Covid danger, that of reinfections, a virologist sets the record straight: “There has yet to be a variant that negates the benefits of vaccines.”

    How will the virus continue to change? As a group of scientists who
    study viruses explains, “There’s no reason, at least biologically, that
    the virus won’t continue to evolve.” From a different angle, the science writer David Quammen surveys some of the highly effective tools and
    techniques that are now available for studying Covid and other viruses,
    but notes that such knowledge alone won’t blunt the danger.

    What could endemic Covid look like? David Wallace Wells writes that by
    one estimate, 100,000 Americans could die each year from the
    coronavirus. Stopping that will require a creative effort to increase
    and sustain high levels of vaccination. The immunobiologist Akiko
    Iwasaki writes that new vaccines, particular those delivered through the
    nose, may be part of the answer.


    More on the Covid-19 pandemic

    Opinion | David Wallace-Wells
    9 Pandemic Narratives We’re Getting Wrong
    Jan. 4, 2023

    Opinion | Frankie Huang
    America’s Covid Test Requirement for Chinese Travelers Is a Farce
    Jan. 5, 2023

    Opinion | Ezekiel J. Emanuel and Matthew Guido
    Covid Isn’t the Only Reason Children’s Vaccination Rates Are Falling
    Dec. 28, 2022
    The Times is committed to publishing a diversity of letters to the
    editor. We’d like to hear what you think about this or any of our
    articles. Here are some tips. And here’s our email: letters@nytimes.com.

    Follow The New York Times Opinion section on Facebook, Twitter
    (@NYTopinion) and Instagram.

    Bret Stephens has been an Opinion columnist with The Times since April
    2017. He won a Pulitzer Prize for commentary at The Wall Street Journal
    in 2013 and was previously editor in chief of The Jerusalem Post. Facebook

    A version of this article appears in print on Feb. 22, 2023, Section A,
    Page 19 of the New York edition with the headline: ‘Do Something’ Is Not Science. Order Reprints | Today’s Paper | Subscribe
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  • From Jim Wilkins@21:1/5 to All on Wed Feb 22 19:59:50 2023
    XPost: or.politics, ca.politics, seattle.politics
    XPost: alt.law-enforcement

    "a425couple" wrote in message news:VKsJL.833673$Tcw8.341067@fx10.iad...

    On 2/22/23 09:40, a425couple wrote:
    New York Times
    Opinion | The Mask Mandates Did Nothing. Will Any Lessons Be Learned?
    -------------------------
    This says masks do help, though the effect is difficult to measure. https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2119266119
    "We find that population mask wearing notably reduced SARS-CoV-2
    transmission (mean mask-wearing levels corresponding to a 19% decrease in
    R)."

    "In light of these results, policy makers can effectively reduce
    transmission by intervening to increase mask wearing."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From a425couple@21:1/5 to Jim Wilkins on Thu Feb 23 10:50:43 2023
    XPost: or.politics, ca.politics, seattle.politics
    XPost: alt.law-enforcement

    On 2/22/23 16:59, Jim Wilkins wrote:
    "a425couple"  wrote in message news:VKsJL.833673$Tcw8.341067@fx10.iad...

    On 2/22/23 09:40, a425couple wrote:
    New York Times
    Opinion | The Mask Mandates Did Nothing. Will Any Lessons Be Learned?
    -------------------------
    This says masks do help, though the effect is difficult to measure. https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2119266119
    "We find that population mask wearing notably reduced SARS-CoV-2
    transmission (mean mask-wearing levels corresponding to a 19% decrease
    in R)."

    "In light of these results, policy makers can effectively reduce
    transmission by intervening to increase mask wearing."

    Well..... this is what I read from there:

    "Abstract
    The effectiveness of mask wearing at controlling severe acute
    respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) transmission has been
    unclear. While masks are known to substantially reduce disease
    transmission in healthcare settings [D. K. Chu et al., Lancet 395,
    1973–1987 (2020); J. Howard et al., Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. U.S.A. 118, e2014564118 (2021); Y. Cheng et al., Science eabg6296 (2021)], studies
    in community settings report inconsistent results [H. M. Ollila et al.,
    medRxiv (2020); J. Brainard et al., Eurosurveillance 25, 2000725 (2020);
    T. Jefferson et al., Cochrane Database Syst. Rev. 11, CD006207 (2020)].
    Most such studies focus on how masks impact transmission, by analyzing
    how effective government mask mandates are. However, we find that
    widespread voluntary mask wearing, and other data limitations, make
    mandate effectiveness a poor proxy for mask-wearing effectiveness. We
    directly analyze the effect of mask wearing on SARS-CoV-2 transmission,
    drawing on several datasets covering 92 regions on six continents,
    including the largest survey of wearing behavior (n=
    20 million) [F. Kreuter et al., https://gisumd.github.io/COVID-19-API-Documentation (2020)]. Using a
    Bayesian hierarchical model, we estimate the effect of mask wearing on transmission, by linking reported wearing levels to reported cases in
    each region, while adjusting for mobility and nonpharmaceutical
    interventions (NPIs), such as bans on large gatherings. Our estimates
    imply that the mean observed level of mask wearing corresponds to a 19% decrease in the reproduction number R. We also assess the robustness of
    our results in 60 tests spanning 20 sensitivity analyses. In light of
    these results, policy makers can effectively reduce transmission by
    intervening to increase mask wearing."

    So, lots of "unclear", "inconsistent" ---

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jim Wilkins@21:1/5 to Jim Wilkins on Thu Feb 23 20:49:14 2023
    XPost: or.politics, ca.politics, seattle.politics
    XPost: alt.law-enforcement

    "a425couple" wrote in message news:8AOJL.215952$5S78.25668@fx48.iad...

    On 2/22/23 16:59, Jim Wilkins wrote:
    "a425couple" wrote in message news:VKsJL.833673$Tcw8.341067@fx10.iad...

    On 2/22/23 09:40, a425couple wrote:
    New York Times
    Opinion | The Mask Mandates Did Nothing. Will Any Lessons Be Learned?
    -------------------------
    This says masks do help, though the effect is difficult to measure. https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2119266119
    "We find that population mask wearing notably reduced SARS-CoV-2
    transmission (mean mask-wearing levels corresponding to a 19% decrease in R)."

    "In light of these results, policy makers can effectively reduce
    transmission by intervening to increase mask wearing."

    Well..... this is what I read from there:

    "Abstract
    The effectiveness of mask wearing at controlling severe acute
    respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) transmission has been
    unclear.
    ------------------------

    The weak link is "reported" compliance, telling the investigator what they
    want to hear to avoid a lecture.
    Data from the the supervised hospital settings may be much more meaningful.

    I wore an N95 under a surgical mask to filter air both ways, and didn't
    catch the slightest cough or runny nose until the panic died down and I occasionally went without them.

    I can understand the German data. While I was there they instituted a 100
    Km\hr (62MPH) speed limit on back roads. Compliance was immediate and
    thorough although there were no speed traps.

    62MPH on twisty roads was still too much for an Army jeep, especially if
    hopped up with privately ordered JC Whitney parts because Europe was starved for supply during Nam. After a GI rolled one and died the mangled wreckage
    was hauled back to the motor pool and left in its assigned parking spot as a reminder. As the stock of serviceable vehicles dwindled I was happy to drive
    my VW on repair calls because it let me stay overnight in a picturesque
    rural Gasthaus instead of on an Army base. The Germans were friendly outside
    of areas GIs frequented and contaminated. Those areas were small since very
    few of us understood the language and drove around on our own.

    I've flown above a lightly used stretch of Autobahn near the Grenze and
    watched the cars zip past below our aircraft.

    I don't remember which of many Army aircraft that was, they had an
    assortment that included Canadian "Otter" bush planes that seemed like
    relics of the 1930's. There was a twin Beech that could do 150 and did once just above a road when we were lost under a ~100' cloud deck, uncomfortably close to Czechoslovakia. The pilot watched for power lines while I called
    out town name signs, until he found the railroad that led to Vilseck. That
    was, um, exciting.

    At the end of a flight in an OH-58 the pilot made an unannounced hot-LZ approach. He flew past the field, then rolled 90 degrees right and spiraled down like a falling rock, sharply pulling out below the tree tops and
    killing our considerable speed in a tight half circle just above the grass.
    The normally vertical windshield center divider strip had been parallel to
    the horizon - in a helicopter!. By then I knew that whatever they might do
    to scare me, they had survived it before and expected to again. I never
    asked how Captain pilots liked playing chauffeur for this Spec 5 repairman.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bob Martin@21:1/5 to a425couple@hotmail.com on Fri Feb 24 08:01:00 2023
    On 23 Feb 2023 at 18:50:43, a425couple <a425couple@hotmail.com> wrote:
    On 2/22/23 16:59, Jim Wilkins wrote:
    "a425couple"  wrote in message news:VKsJL.833673$Tcw8.341067@fx10.iad...

    On 2/22/23 09:40, a425couple wrote:
    New York Times
    Opinion | The Mask Mandates Did Nothing. Will Any Lessons Be Learned?
    -------------------------
    This says masks do help, though the effect is difficult to measure.
    https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2119266119
    "We find that population mask wearing notably reduced SARS-CoV-2
    transmission (mean mask-wearing levels corresponding to a 19% decrease
    in R)."

    "In light of these results, policy makers can effectively reduce
    transmission by intervening to increase mask wearing."

    Well..... this is what I read from there:

    "Abstract
    The effectiveness of mask wearing at controlling severe acute
    respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) transmission has been unclear. While masks are known to substantially reduce disease
    transmission in healthcare settings [D. K. Chu et al., Lancet 395, 1973–1987 (2020); J. Howard et al., Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. U.S.A. 118, e2014564118 (2021); Y. Cheng et al., Science eabg6296 (2021)], studies
    in community settings report inconsistent results [H. M. Ollila et al., medRxiv (2020); J. Brainard et al., Eurosurveillance 25, 2000725 (2020);
    T. Jefferson et al., Cochrane Database Syst. Rev. 11, CD006207 (2020)].
    Most such studies focus on how masks impact transmission, by analyzing
    how effective government mask mandates are. However, we find that
    widespread voluntary mask wearing, and other data limitations, make
    mandate effectiveness a poor proxy for mask-wearing effectiveness. We directly analyze the effect of mask wearing on SARS-CoV-2 transmission, drawing on several datasets covering 92 regions on six continents,
    including the largest survey of wearing behavior (n 20 million) [F. Kreuter et al.,
    https://gisumd.github.io/COVID-19-API-Documentation (2020)]. Using a
    Bayesian hierarchical model, we estimate the effect of mask wearing on transmission, by linking reported wearing levels to reported cases in
    each region, while adjusting for mobility and nonpharmaceutical
    interventions (NPIs), such as bans on large gatherings. Our estimates
    imply that the mean observed level of mask wearing corresponds to a 19% decrease in the reproduction number R. We also assess the robustness of
    our results in 60 tests spanning 20 sensitivity analyses. In light of
    these results, policy makers can effectively reduce transmission by intervening to increase mask wearing."

    So, lots of "unclear", "inconsistent" ---

    Common sense tells you masks must make a difference,
    and every little helps.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jim Wilkins@21:1/5 to All on Fri Feb 24 07:09:54 2023
    "Bob Martin" wrote in message news:k5r95sF40ieU1@mid.individual.net...

    Common sense tells you masks must make a difference,
    and every little helps.

    ------------------------

    Their effectiveness is tested, not just assumed. https://www.nelsonlabs.com/testing/respirator-pre-submission-tests-niosh/

    During Army basic training the effectiveness of gas masks was demonstrated
    by releasing tear gas into a room-full of us, then having each recruit
    remove his mask and state his name to the drill sergeants. Many didn't
    complete their names before rushing outside to recover. I lasted long enough
    to tell them the gas was alpha-chloroacetophenone before they ordered me
    out. As a "college boy" I had to show toughness.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From a425couple@21:1/5 to Jim Wilkins on Fri Feb 24 11:19:47 2023
    On 2/24/23 04:09, Jim Wilkins wrote:
    "Bob Martin"  wrote in message news:k5r95sF40ieU1@mid.individual.net...

    Common sense tells you masks must make a difference,
    and every little helps.

    ------------------------

    Their effectiveness is tested, not just assumed. https://www.nelsonlabs.com/testing/respirator-pre-submission-tests-niosh/

    During Army basic training the effectiveness of gas masks was
    demonstrated by releasing tear gas into a room-full of us, then having
    each recruit remove his mask and state his name to the drill sergeants.
    Many didn't complete their names before rushing outside to recover. I
    lasted long enough to tell them the gas was alpha-chloroacetophenone
    before they ordered me out. As a "college boy" I had to show toughness.


    Yeah,,,,,

    Comparing military gas masks against tear gas,

    as having any relationship what so ever with
    masks being used in last 3 years to prevent
    Covid, is a really, I mean REALLY long stretch.

    (Yes, I've been there, in the military in the
    tear gas training, and on field exercises
    ((really hits by surprise while maneuvering
    through bushes at night!))
    and with multiple chemicals over a career
    in law-enforcement. But it does clear the
    sinuses on those days.)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Keith Willshaw@21:1/5 to Jim Wilkins on Sat Feb 25 15:28:28 2023
    On 24/02/2023 12:09, Jim Wilkins wrote:
    "Bob Martin"  wrote in message news:k5r95sF40ieU1@mid.individual.net...

    Common sense tells you masks must make a difference,
    and every little helps.

    ------------------------

    Their effectiveness is tested, not just assumed. https://www.nelsonlabs.com/testing/respirator-pre-submission-tests-niosh/

    During Army basic training the effectiveness of gas masks was
    demonstrated by releasing tear gas into a room-full of us, then having
    each recruit remove his mask and state his name to the drill sergeants.
    Many didn't complete their names before rushing outside to recover. I
    lasted long enough to tell them the gas was alpha-chloroacetophenone
    before they ordered me out. As a "college boy" I had to show toughness.



    There are twi dufferent issues here. Masks are certainly useful in
    preventing casualties from chemical sources. As young man working on a
    chlorine plant we were trained using tear gas as mentioned. We had just
    ome major release and the experience paid off, there were no major
    casualties.

    When it comes to bio hazards the main thing masks do is reduce the
    transmission of the virus rather than its inhalation. Covid virus
    transmisson is grealy reduced by a simple mask and combined with social distancing is quite effective. In 202o my mother was in a care home and
    the use of masks and gloves by the STAFF was very effective in keeping
    covid out, there were no fatalities in he home, in another just 1/2 mile
    away they did not enforce this and 23 residents died.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jim Wilkins@21:1/5 to All on Sat Feb 25 12:34:17 2023
    "Keith Willshaw" wrote in message news:ttd9es$2jf83$1@dont-email.me...

    There are twi dufferent issues here. Masks are certainly useful in
    preventing casualties from chemical sources. As young man working on a
    chlorine plant we were trained using tear gas as mentioned. We had just
    ome major release and the experience paid off, there were no major
    casualties.

    When it comes to bio hazards the main thing masks do is reduce the
    transmission of the virus rather than its inhalation. Covid virus
    transmisson is grealy reduced by a simple mask and combined with social distancing is quite effective. In 202o my mother was in a care home and
    the use of masks and gloves by the STAFF was very effective in keeping
    covid out, there were no fatalities in he home, in another just 1/2 mile
    away they did not enforce this and 23 residents died.

    ---------------------

    My brother was in an elder care facility that stayed disease free through enforcement of the recommended practices. They worked when everyone followed them.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Peter Stickney@21:1/5 to Jim Wilkins on Tue Feb 28 07:26:42 2023
    On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 12:34:17 -0500, Jim Wilkins wrote:

    "Keith Willshaw" wrote in message news:ttd9es$2jf83$1@dont-email.me...

    There are twi dufferent issues here. Masks are certainly useful in
    preventing casualties from chemical sources. As young man working on a chlorine plant we were trained using tear gas as mentioned. We had just
    ome major release and the experience paid off, there were no major casualties.

    When it comes to bio hazards the main thing masks do is reduce the transmission of the virus rather than its inhalation. Covid virus
    transmisson is grealy reduced by a simple mask and combined with social distancing is quite effective. In 202o my mother was in a care home and
    the use of masks and gloves by the STAFF was very effective in keeping
    covid out, there were no fatalities in he home, in another just 1/2 mile
    away they did not enforce this and 23 residents died.

    ---------------------

    My brother was in an elder care facility that stayed disease free
    through enforcement of the recommended practices. They worked when
    everyone followed them.

    As opposed to New York State, where they forced Care Homes to be Covid Warehouses, killing or contributing to the deaths of thousands.
    (An Aunt of mine was one of them - She had cardiac issues, so in her case
    it's fair to say that her passing as Covid-Related, rather than Covid-
    caused. (Although NY chalked it up to Covid specifically)


    --
    Peter Stickney
    Java Man knew nothing about coffee

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jim Wilkins@21:1/5 to Jim Wilkins on Tue Feb 28 09:17:33 2023
    "Peter Stickney" wrote in message news:ttkabh$3hv5v$1@dont-email.me...

    On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 12:34:17 -0500, Jim Wilkins wrote:

    My brother was in an elder care facility that stayed disease free
    through enforcement of the recommended practices. They worked when
    everyone followed them.

    As opposed to New York State, where they forced Care Homes to be Covid Warehouses, killing or contributing to the deaths of thousands.
    (An Aunt of mine was one of them - She had cardiac issues, so in her case
    it's fair to say that her passing as Covid-Related, rather than Covid-
    caused. (Although NY chalked it up to Covid specifically)
    Peter Stickney

    --------------------

    My brother was in a small facility in the northeast corner of Georgia, that
    a doctor had established because he was dissatisfied with existing elder
    care.

    This is nearby:
    https://gastateparks.org/TallulahGorge

    I've been in other rural parts of Georgia where you don't venture with out-of-state plates. A cousin gave me the boot-legger tour. That area was tourist-friendly although it's near where Deliverance was filmed, which they are proud of.

    http://www.goats-on-the-roof.com/
    https://therebelshop.com/

    The area reminds me of the Tuxedo Park region of New York which doesn't
    attract too much of the ruder element of the city. I worked one summer at
    the NY Renaissance Faire in Sterling Forest and spent many weekends in NYC while stationed at Fort Monmouth, NJ. Unfortunately I never got to see Springsteen at Asbury Park.

    I worked for the caterer, fixing stuff and learning about the performers'
    Gypsy lifestyle, that sometimes attracts high-tech dropouts. Once when meat
    ran low we made a Viking raid on the grocery store in Monroe. Someone has a photo of me in a wizard robe repairing a Motorola radio.
    Next to Monroe: https://www.amazon.com/Curious-Case-Kiryas-Joel-Separation/dp/1613735006

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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