• Its a Bridge not a landing strip

    From Geoff Rove@21:1/5 to All on Sun May 15 14:17:00 2022
    One person was killed and five others were injured after a small plane crashed on a bridge near Miami on Saturday afternoon, striking an SUV with three passengers and bursting into flames.

    The small plane carrying a pilot and two passengers was travelling north over Haulover Inlet Bridge when it crashed into an SUV travelling southbound, Miami-Dade police said in a press release. The plane then caught fire and fire officials discovered a
    body in the plane while extinguishing the flames.

    The single-engine Cessna 172 departed from Hollywood-Fort Lauderdale International Airport bound for Key West and soon lost power, according to a statement from the Federal Aviation Administration.

    A woman was driving the SUV and had two toddlers in the vehicle,who were taken to a hospital for evaluation, according to police.

    "It is miraculous," Miami-Dade Police spokesman Alvaro Zabaleta told NBC Miami, that the occupants in the car were OK. "So we're thankful for that but it's still unfortunate that we did lose somebody on this scene."

    The National Air Traffic Controllers Association confirmed the person who died was Narciso Torres, 36, a veteran Miami Airport Traffic Control Tower controller who was on board the plane.

    “Like so many thousands of our members, Narciso had such a deep love of all things aviation, and of flying, as evidenced by this flight on a beautiful South Florida day where he was doing what he loved," NATCA President Rich Santa said in a statement. "
    This loss hurts so deeply. Narciso will never be forgotten.”

    Torres served as local union president at Miami International Airport since 2019, according to the NATCA.

    “He was beloved,” Doug Church, deputy director of public affairs for the union, told the Miami Herald. “It’s a terrible loss.”

    Drone footage shared on social media showed the plane crumpled on the Haulover Inlet Bridge with a damaged SUV nearby. A man can be seen scrambling from the plane and being helped by others to the side of the roadway just before the aircraft became
    engulfed in flames.

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  • From Larry Dighera@21:1/5 to All on Tue May 24 13:37:15 2022
    On Sun, 15 May 2022 14:17:00 -0700 (PDT), Geoff Rove <jgrove24@hotmail.com> wrote:

    One person was killed and five others were injured after a small plane crashed on a bridge near Miami on Saturday afternoon, striking an SUV with three passengers and bursting into flames.

    The small plane carrying a pilot and two passengers was travelling north over Haulover Inlet Bridge when it crashed into an SUV travelling southbound, Miami-Dade police said in a press release. The plane then caught fire and fire officials discovered a
    body in the plane while extinguishing the flames.

    The single-engine Cessna 172 departed from Hollywood-Fort Lauderdale International Airport bound for Key West and soon lost power, according to a statement from the Federal Aviation Administration.

    A woman was driving the SUV and had two toddlers in the vehicle,who were taken to a hospital for evaluation, according to police.

    "It is miraculous," Miami-Dade Police spokesman Alvaro Zabaleta told NBC Miami, that the occupants in the car were OK. "So we're thankful for that but it's still unfortunate that we did lose somebody on this scene."

    The National Air Traffic Controllers Association confirmed the person who died was Narciso Torres, 36, a veteran Miami Airport Traffic Control Tower controller who was on board the plane.

    Like so many thousands of our members, Narciso had such a deep love of all things aviation, and of flying, as evidenced by this flight on a beautiful South Florida day where he was doing what he loved," NATCA President Rich Santa said in a statement. "
    This loss hurts so deeply. Narciso will never be forgotten.

    Torres served as local union president at Miami International Airport since 2019, according to the NATCA.

    He was beloved, Doug Church, deputy director of public affairs for the union, told the Miami Herald. Its a terrible loss.

    Drone footage shared on social media showed the plane crumpled on the Haulover Inlet Bridge with a damaged SUV nearby. A man can be seen scrambling from the plane and being helped by others to the side of the roadway just before the aircraft became
    engulfed in flames.



    https://www.avweb.com/multimedia/votw/miami-accident-dont-be-fearful-of-ditching/

    Miami Accident: Dont Be Fearful Of Ditching
    By Paul Bertorelli -
    May 15, 2022
    38

    Over the weekend of May 14, a Cessna 172 made an emergency landing on the Haulover Inlet Bridge, resulting in one fatality. Ditching in the water
    might have been the higher percentage choice. In this video https://youtu.be/UXEg1E6-ogs , Paul Bertorelli goes over the numbers. If you keep them in mind, it might help you overcome fear of ditching if it ever
    turns out to be the better survival choice. For a more thorough discussion
    of ditching considerations, see this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LwGYBBhTss&t=0s . For more on road
    landings, see this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99DomTe9JY4&t=2s .

    38 COMMENTS
    Arthur J F. May 15, 2022 At 10:14 pm
    Some people dont want to waste and airplane; so they see a chance to
    maybe set down and save it.
    I think that its a reall mental obstacle to head for the water and know
    that the plane is guaranteed to be totalled. Survivability on either is
    really a toss-up so some will roll the dice to save the plane.
    Log in to leave a comment
    Scott F. May 16, 2022 At 6:44 am
    Once that engine quits, the airplane belongs to the insurance company. All
    that matters after that is the safety of your passengers and you. It is not right to make drivers on the road unwilling participants of your emergency.
    The road should be the last option unless it is certain there is no traffic
    or obstacles. (In Florida, there is always traffic, the bridge was not a
    good option.)
    Log in to leave a comment
    Vince M. May 16, 2022 At 7:23 am
    Scott: You cannot imagine the number of times that I say that exact phrase
    to my studentsthe objective of an engine out is saving your butt!! Thanks. Best, Vince
    Log in to leave a comment
    Arthur J F. May 16, 2022 At 9:20 am
    Funny that human psychology, more often than not, trumps an instructors
    words during an actual emergency.
    Log in to leave a comment
    Cosmo A. May 15, 2022 At 10:20 pm
    Thanks Paul. I greatly appreciated that run down on this a few years ago. It made me mentally rehearse the possibility more realistically, especially
    saying out loud roads are the last resort. When the fan stops blowing and wont be resuming activities, I am sure youve previously remarked that from that point, the insurance company owns the plane.
    Log in to leave a comment
    Rick F. May 16, 2022 At 5:58 am
    Often, rental planes are uninsured. Unless you have hull insurance as a
    renter, the plane may not be covered at all.
    Log in to leave a comment
    R N. May 16, 2022 At 5:37 pm
    Im surprised by this statement. How can a flight school not have their aircraft insured. I know as a renter you want insurance because youd still need to cover for stuff that you may be responsible for.
    Log in to leave a comment
    Steve R. May 19, 2022 At 10:39 am
    Most FBOs that rent airplanes DO insure them,but only to protect their own interests, not the renters. If the renter damages the rental, the insurance company will pay off the FBO and then likely come after the renter ( or
    their estate) to recover their loss. Renters insurance protects the renter
    Log in to leave a comment
    Raf S. May 16, 2022 At 3:33 am
    Well presented advisory. Thanks Paul.
    Log in to leave a comment
    Michael H. May 16, 2022 At 4:47 am
    As a pilot we have a duty to Fly safely. There was no way to know if the oncoming traffic was carrying a Church choir or a soccer team. It would it
    have been better choice to put the aircraft in into the water for the safety
    of the bridge traffic.
    Remember it was not like the drivers can pull over off the road.
    From many years ago, I remember too many conversations about your duty to
    ride it in rather than risk flying into somebodys home. Sometimes aviation requires pilots to make hard decisions
    Log in to leave a comment
    Robert O. May 16, 2022 At 9:06 am
    The pilot made the best decision based on the information at hand.
    If he would have chose the beach and hit a dog walker, youd be advocating
    for a road/bridge landing. If he chose the ICW and hit a boat, youd be advocating for a beach landing. If he chose a ditching off the beach and hit
    a swimmer, youd be advocating for a ICW landing.
    No matter the decision, it would have been a bad one according to the
    Monday morning quarterbacks.
    These comments only contribute to indecision for the next pilot. What will
    the NTSB think? What will the YouTube and AvWeb comments look like? Who
    cares. Fly it all the way to the scene of the crash as safely as you can.
    As Paul mentioned, the PIC had about a minute and a half to put it down.
    That means, he had much less than a minute and a half to access the
    information at hand and make the best decision possible at the time. Maybe a generous 30 seconds. At some point in the glide, hes left with one option
    and that option now, is based on information that is a minute old.
    Log in to leave a comment
    Arthur J F. May 16, 2022 At 9:42 am
    Robert, spot on. Basically youre gonna hit something if you fly in a
    congested area and its always a crap shoot if your initial descision was
    the best for you or what you hit. Even a whole plane parachute does not
    mean safety for whats under you!
    Log in to leave a comment
    Michael H. May 16, 2022 At 5:50 pm
    I never said to land on the beach or in the surf. I said he should land in
    the water. Paul has pointed out many times The best possible outcome is the land in the water. A pilot has the responsibility to do the least harm possible. Many times there is no good choice theres only the best bad
    choice.
    Captain Sully had to make this choice years ago. He couldve gone down the river and landed in the water and the risked the lives of the people on the aircraft or he couldve tried to turn back and probably crashed into a high-rise apartment complex. in a couple of seconds he chose not to risk
    other peoples lives.
    If you want to be a pilot you may have to make hard choices if youre if
    goal is to down the coast or chase $200 cheeseburgers walk
    Log in to leave a comment
    Raf S. May 16, 2022 At 6:30 pm
    A pilot has the responsibility to do the least harm possible. Good
    reminder! Thanks Michael H.

    Robert O. May 16, 2022 At 7:13 pm
    The best bad choice is just anothers worse choice.
    Im not sure how your delineating between water and the ICW as the ICW is full of the stuff, and boaters, and swimmers.
    I am fully confident that if he put it down in the water and all aboard drowned, theyd be a dozen others here espousing there virtues of a beach landing.

    Olle P. May 16, 2022 At 9:09 am
    As a seaplane pilot, We have Under Water Escape training every second year,
    we use an cockpit mock-up in an ordinary swimming pool. Flipping upside
    down, unbuckle seat-belts, open doors, finding which way is up under stress
    is a good training, that I hope I will never need.
    Log in to leave a comment
    William S. May 16, 2022 At 10:06 am
    It would be helpful to have more information about in what percentage of ditchings high wing planes flip. Theres one widely-publicized flight instructor who claims that they always flip; Mr. Bertorelli is saying its rare. Im afraid that, despite the survival stats, in a pinch I might
    hesitate about setting up for a landing in which i would likely be trying to get out of a rapidly flooding plane while inverted. The part of the plane
    that floods first is where your head is! Ive seen myself turn very stupid
    very fast when presented with a disorienting physical situation (my first
    spin, for example). Getting the inversion-dunking training isnt always practicable, though if I lived near water I would certainly do it.
    Log in to leave a comment
    Paul B. May 16, 2022 At 10:24 am
    Its absurd to say they always flip. I showed a clip of a 172RG that didnt flip. A friend ditched her 210 off Key West. Didnt flip. I interviewed a survivor of a 172 ditching in the Bahamas. Didnt flip. A friend ditched a
    182 in the breaker land off Naples. That one did flip. Theres a YouTube
    video of a Caravan ditching shot from the inside. Didnt flip.
    The accident reports frequently lack enough detail to determine whether the airplane pitch poled or not. But I gave the data suggesting it doesnt
    matter much. People egress safely at a rate exceeding 90 percent and
    highwings are underrepresented in to total cohort.
    Log in to leave a comment
    Geoff C. May 16, 2022 At 10:27 am
    Having been a seaplane pilot into busy boat harbors, it would be very easy
    to quick plan a landing which would avoid collision with boat traffic. And
    most boaters would quickly respond to assist in rescue operations.
    Log in to leave a comment
    Anthony V. May 16, 2022 At 10:30 am
    Actually, any small airplane with gear down is likely to turn turtle in a controlled ditching. And dont forget that a good number of us cant swim that may influence the choice of whether to ditch or not. I myself am one
    who could never be taught to swim, yet I have been flying over water for
    over 50 years, albeit almost always in large jet transports that have better accommodations for a water landing than did the Titanic. But I once flew a single engine airplane from Florida to Puerto Rico. One cultivates a
    somewhat fatalistic attitude in such circumstances, but that does not blind
    me to the fact that a ditching is more than likely a better option than
    landing on a city street, or a bridge. After all, the passengers probably
    can swim, and I am responsible for them too.
    Log in to leave a comment
    Gary B. May 16, 2022 At 3:15 pm
    any small airplane with gear down is likely to turn turtle in a controlled ditching
    I have not seen any statistics prove that out. Sure, if I was in a retract I would leave the gear up while ditching, but thats as much to reduce water
    drag to reduce the decel as much as to mitigate any flipping tendencies.
    Log in to leave a comment
    Paul B. May 17, 2022 At 1:16 pm
    Actually, any small airplane with gear down is likely to turn turtle in a controlled ditching.
    This is simply not true. And we should stop repeating it. Im boring into
    some additional data on ditchings and of 36 incidents, two flipped. Thats 5 percent. So the right way to look at it as pitch poling is possible, but
    its not frequent. And even when it is, egress is a high probability.
    Log in to leave a comment
    John W. May 16, 2022 At 11:47 am
    Intellect vs. instinct. A flying fish would go for water landing, humans
    first look for the friendly environment of dry land.
    Log in to leave a comment
    James C. May 16, 2022 At 3:16 pm
    My concern wouldnt necessarily be with flipping over (though that is a possibility), or with trying to save the airplane, but rather the chance
    that the landing (watering?) results in a head injury to someone aboard the aircraft, and this results in drowning. Ive had egress training from the
    FAA, and its definitely good stuff to have, but Im somewhat less confident that I could do it after an abrupt stop. So, although I definitely dont
    want to use a roadway, I do want to stay dry, and this would be a very hard choice.
    Log in to leave a comment
    R N. May 16, 2022 At 5:28 pm
    Paul
    Nice one. Did you say youd put the links to the other videos in the description?
    I cant see them
    Thanks
    Log in to leave a comment
    Paul B. May 17, 2022 At 5:17 am
    They are in the YouTube description section. I have added them to the
    summary above.
    Log in to leave a comment
    Tyler V. May 17, 2022 At 12:29 am
    Psychology often trumps training, let alone youtube video breakdowns of the stats. Not everyone is a carrier qualified fast mover pilot with the volume
    of training it takes to be one and even they screw up in ways that make
    monday morning quarterbacks scratch their heads. Remember that F35 that
    bounced off the deck not too long ago? That pilot was probably better
    trained than every avweb commenter I see above the comment box right now,
    still screwed up big time. Water landing is the probably the scariest forced landing scenario short of the engine quitting on climb-out over the suburbs with no good landing areas ahead or within a doable turn, thats a scenario
    a lot of pilots could face based on the sprawl surrounding a good number of Americas airports. Even strong swimmers like me are instinctively inclined take the chance on land, especially a roadway, vs water. The common sense knowledge in the back of your mind that any non-trivial injury in the
    process of ditching probably will turn that ditching into a drowning because
    of difficulty escaping doesnt help that. Many injuries which are perfectly survivable on land in the absence of fire mean you wont be getting out of
    that sinking plane unless a competent boater happens to be close enough to
    drag you out before the plane slips beneath the waves.
    Log in to leave a comment
    David B. May 17, 2022 At 3:35 pm
    A few years ago I flew my 172 from Dallas to Seattle. The many hours I spent over the mountains gave me little concern. Then we went up to Friday Harbor, and the minutes we spent over the Puget Sound waters concerned me greatly. I found that odd, because Ive also flown to Key West without much concern,
    but two things were different in Washington State. First, a cloud cover kept
    us down low and I didnt have the mitigation of high altitude available to
    me. The other is water temperature. I can swim, that doesnt worry me. But
    even in summer I think the Puget Sound will incapacitate me in a matter of minutes. Try to go down near a boat.
    Log in to leave a comment
    Peter L. May 17, 2022 At 5:16 pm
    Ive never ditched (knocks on wood)and a good thing, as the great bulk of
    my overwater time has been on ferry flights worldwide (primarily North Atlantic, where despite immersion suit, life raft, PLB, etc., the ultimate outcome of even a successful ditching is likely dire). I have, however, had
    a crash (in a Marchetti SF-260), just after departing Narsarsuaq, Greenland, enroute to Canada. I had the choice between jettisoning the canopy and
    ditching in the adjacent fjordwhich was frozen, but on which the ice was
    quite thin, offering the possibility of punching through it and being stuck underneathor picking the least worst spot on land, which was a sloping
    rocky field. Thats what I chose; the airplane was totaled (at least so far
    as insurance was concerned), I walked away without a scratch.
    A couple of thoughts:
    1.) It had thrown a rod, but was still running (after a fashion), and I was still close enough to the airport that I might have been able to nurse it
    back to the runwaybut if Id tried turning back across the fjord and it had then quit outright, Id definitely have had to ditch. I remember thinking, its not mine, its insured, its time to park it as a headed for the
    field which I knew was within gliding range. (I can add that cutting the
    engine and stopping the prop provided a very significant increase in glide performance.)
    2.) It was a huge psychological advantage for me that it wasnt my first, or even my thousand and first, forced landing without power (I fly gliders) nor
    my first, or even my hundred and first, off-airport landing (I fly gliders).
    I happen to think that glider experienceeven if only a few hoursis
    absolutely invaluable, and if I had my druthers as a CFI Id start every student in them first. (Not to mention that its huge fun.)
    Log in to leave a comment
    Marc G. May 17, 2022 At 6:58 pm
    Great comment. Thank You.
    Log in to leave a comment
    Eric G. May 18, 2022 At 12:31 pm
    Great video. Besides the gulp of air, I have heard that it is a good idea to take your feet off the rudders at the moment of impact. The rudders may give you directional control on the way down. They may be abruptly jammed one way
    or the other at impact breaking or spraining an ankle and are ineffective
    after contact with the water anyway.
    Log in to leave a comment
    Black B. May 18, 2022 At 5:01 pm
    Conducting an emergency landing & exposing ANYONE on the ground to possible injury (or death) is ABSOLUTELY UNFORGIVABLE!!!!
    My take
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    Rush S. May 19, 2022 At 9:52 am
    Exposing ANYONE on the ground to possible injury (or death) by flying over inhabited areas is ABSOLUTELY UNFORGIVABLE!!!!
    Take two.
    Log in to leave a comment
    Tod L. May 19, 2022 At 4:01 am
    Did the pilot know how to swim? I am sure you experts know that answer.
    Log in to leave a comment
    Jeff W. May 19, 2022 At 7:50 am
    Likely half or more of these types of accidents could be prevented. We would have much less to talk about with if pilots put safety and prevention before all else. Sure, even brand new airplanes fail, I get it. But bad, or no, maintenance is at fault many times, as is fuel starvation. Secondly flying
    over the concrete jungle at a higher altitude affords more options to newly-minted glider pilots too. Prevention.
    I flew a King Air B-200 for a company for a number of years. There was a
    simple log entry that read left Outer Wing Panel P/N 0000 changed. Out of curiosity I checked the part number thinking it was an inspection panel.
    Nope. The wing panel is the entire wing from the nacelle outward. The wing panel attaches to the mother ship, at the nacelle, with 4 bolts! Six months after the aircraft was built in 1981 the captain turned the aircraft into a glider by somehow forgetting to put fuel in the aircraft. The Aluminum Recycling Center Next Left sign on the freeway turned the left wing into future beer cans. I know what you are thinking, because I thought the same thing every time the air got the least bit bumpy. What about the wing panel attach fittings? There was no log entry even suggesting the attach points
    were inspected.
    In grade school we learned this song Safety is my friend, and safety is
    your friend, the more we think of safety the safer we will be.
    God bless.
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    John M. May 19, 2022 At 8:24 am
    There were few options for the pilot. Looking at Google Earth you had the
    beach which would have probably resulted in deaths of people on the beach. U
    of Biscayne property has some open space but could have made that? The
    Haulover Sand Bar is a large shallow area that would probably have been
    best. Just a couple of feet of water to land in so the potential for
    drowning would have been minimal.
    Log in to leave a comment
    Black B. May 19, 2022 At 12:54 pm
    Thats also my take John.
    Log in to leave a comment
    . May 20, 2022 At 1:20 am
    I appreciate the intellectual assessment Paul Bertorelli makes in all his articles. Many thanks for making all of us smarter with data and diligent reflection on the issue (and perhaps a little wittier too!) MM
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  • From Larry Dighera@21:1/5 to Larry Dighera on Mon Jun 6 17:22:01 2022
    https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/fuel-valve-out-of-position-in-miami-bridge-crash/

    Fuel Valve Out Of Position In Miami Bridge Crash
    By Russ Niles -
    Published: June 4, 2022
    Updated: June 5, 2022

    The fuel tank selector valve was between Both and Right on the Cessna 172
    that collided with two vehicles in an emergency landing on a bridge in Miami
    on May 14. The crash killed the pilot and injured two passengers and five people in one of the vehicles. That was the only obvious anomaly with the aircraft mentioned in the NTSBs preliminary report on the accident. The
    full report is copied below. Although the fuel valve was out of position,
    there was fuel in the line to the carburetor, which was functioning
    normally, the engine had compression on all cylinders and the ignition
    system was fine. The throttle was pushed all the way in, the mixture was
    full rich and the carb heat was turned off.

    The plane took off from Homestead Airport and landed at North Perry Airport
    in Hollywood where the pilot added 11.2 gallons of fuel and met the
    passengers. The NTSB checked the fuel at the airport and found no contamination. The plane took off for Key West and was flying below the
    Miami Class B along the waterfront at 1,200 feet when the pilot called a MayDay, saying hed lost engine power and was going down. Theres three
    souls, theres um a road right here a little bridge, Im going to make
    that, 54Z, the pilot said in his last radio transmission. The plane landed straddling the median of the four-lane bridge, hit a vehicle from behind, crossed the median and collided head-on with a van before flipping over and catching fire. The pilot was a Miami tower controller.

    Report_ERA22FA226_105075_6_4_2022-7_45_36-PMDownload https://s30121.pcdn.co/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Report_ERA22FA226_105075_6_4_2022-7_45_36-PM.pdf
    ================================================================================


    On Tue, 24 May 2022 13:37:15 -0700, Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net> wrote:

    On Sun, 15 May 2022 14:17:00 -0700 (PDT), Geoff Rove <jgrove24@hotmail.com> >wrote:

    One person was killed and five others were injured after a small plane crashed on a bridge near Miami on Saturday afternoon, striking an SUV with three passengers and bursting into flames.

    The small plane carrying a pilot and two passengers was travelling north over Haulover Inlet Bridge when it crashed into an SUV travelling southbound, Miami-Dade police said in a press release. The plane then caught fire and fire officials discovered a
    body in the plane while extinguishing the flames.

    The single-engine Cessna 172 departed from Hollywood-Fort Lauderdale International Airport bound for Key West and soon lost power, according to a statement from the Federal Aviation Administration.

    A woman was driving the SUV and had two toddlers in the vehicle,who were taken to a hospital for evaluation, according to police.

    "It is miraculous," Miami-Dade Police spokesman Alvaro Zabaleta told NBC Miami, that the occupants in the car were OK. "So we're thankful for that but it's still unfortunate that we did lose somebody on this scene."

    The National Air Traffic Controllers Association confirmed the person who died was Narciso Torres, 36, a veteran Miami Airport Traffic Control Tower controller who was on board the plane.

    Like so many thousands of our members, Narciso had such a deep love of all things aviation, and of flying, as evidenced by this flight on a beautiful South Florida day where he was doing what he loved," NATCA President Rich Santa said in a statement. "
    This loss hurts so deeply. Narciso will never be forgotten.

    Torres served as local union president at Miami International Airport since 2019, according to the NATCA.

    He was beloved, Doug Church, deputy director of public affairs for the union, told the Miami Herald. Its a terrible loss.

    Drone footage shared on social media showed the plane crumpled on the Haulover Inlet Bridge with a damaged SUV nearby. A man can be seen scrambling from the plane and being helped by others to the side of the roadway just before the aircraft became
    engulfed in flames.



    https://www.avweb.com/multimedia/votw/miami-accident-dont-be-fearful-of-ditching/

    Miami Accident: Dont Be Fearful Of Ditching
    By Paul Bertorelli -
    May 15, 2022
    38

    Over the weekend of May 14, a Cessna 172 made an emergency landing on the >Haulover Inlet Bridge, resulting in one fatality. Ditching in the water
    might have been the higher percentage choice. In this video >https://youtu.be/UXEg1E6-ogs , Paul Bertorelli goes over the numbers. If you >keep them in mind, it might help you overcome fear of ditching if it ever >turns out to be the better survival choice. For a more thorough discussion
    of ditching considerations, see this video: >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LwGYBBhTss&t=0s . For more on road
    landings, see this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99DomTe9JY4&t=2s .

    38 COMMENTS
    Arthur J F. May 15, 2022 At 10:14 pm
    Some people dont want to waste and airplane; so they see a chance to
    maybe set down and save it.
    I think that its a reall mental obstacle to head for the water and know
    that the plane is guaranteed to be totalled. Survivability on either is >really a toss-up so some will roll the dice to save the plane.
    Log in to leave a comment
    Scott F. May 16, 2022 At 6:44 am
    Once that engine quits, the airplane belongs to the insurance company. All >that matters after that is the safety of your passengers and you. It is not >right to make drivers on the road unwilling participants of your emergency. >The road should be the last option unless it is certain there is no traffic >or obstacles. (In Florida, there is always traffic, the bridge was not a
    good option.)
    Log in to leave a comment
    Vince M. May 16, 2022 At 7:23 am
    Scott: You cannot imagine the number of times that I say that exact phrase
    to my studentsthe objective of an engine out is saving your butt!! Thanks. >Best, Vince
    Log in to leave a comment
    Arthur J F. May 16, 2022 At 9:20 am
    Funny that human psychology, more often than not, trumps an instructors
    words during an actual emergency.
    Log in to leave a comment
    Cosmo A. May 15, 2022 At 10:20 pm
    Thanks Paul. I greatly appreciated that run down on this a few years ago. It >made me mentally rehearse the possibility more realistically, especially >saying out loud roads are the last resort. When the fan stops blowing and >wont be resuming activities, I am sure youve previously remarked that from >that point, the insurance company owns the plane.
    Log in to leave a comment
    Rick F. May 16, 2022 At 5:58 am
    Often, rental planes are uninsured. Unless you have hull insurance as a >renter, the plane may not be covered at all.
    Log in to leave a comment
    R N. May 16, 2022 At 5:37 pm
    Im surprised by this statement. How can a flight school not have their >aircraft insured. I know as a renter you want insurance because youd still >need to cover for stuff that you may be responsible for.
    Log in to leave a comment
    Steve R. May 19, 2022 At 10:39 am
    Most FBOs that rent airplanes DO insure them,but only to protect their own >interests, not the renters. If the renter damages the rental, the insurance >company will pay off the FBO and then likely come after the renter ( or
    their estate) to recover their loss. Renters insurance protects the renter >Log in to leave a comment
    Raf S. May 16, 2022 At 3:33 am
    Well presented advisory. Thanks Paul.
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    Michael H. May 16, 2022 At 4:47 am
    As a pilot we have a duty to Fly safely. There was no way to know if the >oncoming traffic was carrying a Church choir or a soccer team. It would it >have been better choice to put the aircraft in into the water for the safety >of the bridge traffic.
    Remember it was not like the drivers can pull over off the road.
    From many years ago, I remember too many conversations about your duty to >ride it in rather than risk flying into somebodys home. Sometimes aviation >requires pilots to make hard decisions
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    Robert O. May 16, 2022 At 9:06 am
    The pilot made the best decision based on the information at hand.
    If he would have chose the beach and hit a dog walker, youd be advocating >for a road/bridge landing. If he chose the ICW and hit a boat, youd be >advocating for a beach landing. If he chose a ditching off the beach and hit >a swimmer, youd be advocating for a ICW landing.
    No matter the decision, it would have been a bad one according to the >Monday morning quarterbacks.
    These comments only contribute to indecision for the next pilot. What will >the NTSB think? What will the YouTube and AvWeb comments look like? Who >cares. Fly it all the way to the scene of the crash as safely as you can.
    As Paul mentioned, the PIC had about a minute and a half to put it down.
    That means, he had much less than a minute and a half to access the >information at hand and make the best decision possible at the time. Maybe a >generous 30 seconds. At some point in the glide, hes left with one option >and that option now, is based on information that is a minute old.
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    Arthur J F. May 16, 2022 At 9:42 am
    Robert, spot on. Basically youre gonna hit something if you fly in a >congested area and its always a crap shoot if your initial descision was >the best for you or what you hit. Even a whole plane parachute does not >mean safety for whats under you!
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    Michael H. May 16, 2022 At 5:50 pm
    I never said to land on the beach or in the surf. I said he should land in >the water. Paul has pointed out many times The best possible outcome is the >land in the water. A pilot has the responsibility to do the least harm >possible. Many times there is no good choice theres only the best bad >choice.
    Captain Sully had to make this choice years ago. He couldve gone down the >river and landed in the water and the risked the lives of the people on the >aircraft or he couldve tried to turn back and probably crashed into a >high-rise apartment complex. in a couple of seconds he chose not to risk >other peoples lives.
    If you want to be a pilot you may have to make hard choices if youre if
    goal is to down the coast or chase $200 cheeseburgers walk
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    Raf S. May 16, 2022 At 6:30 pm
    A pilot has the responsibility to do the least harm possible. Good >reminder! Thanks Michael H.

    Robert O. May 16, 2022 At 7:13 pm
    The best bad choice is just anothers worse choice.
    Im not sure how your delineating between water and the ICW as the ICW is >full of the stuff, and boaters, and swimmers.
    I am fully confident that if he put it down in the water and all aboard >drowned, theyd be a dozen others here espousing there virtues of a beach >landing.

    Olle P. May 16, 2022 At 9:09 am
    As a seaplane pilot, We have Under Water Escape training every second year, >we use an cockpit mock-up in an ordinary swimming pool. Flipping upside
    down, unbuckle seat-belts, open doors, finding which way is up under stress >is a good training, that I hope I will never need.
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    William S. May 16, 2022 At 10:06 am
    It would be helpful to have more information about in what percentage of >ditchings high wing planes flip. Theres one widely-publicized flight >instructor who claims that they always flip; Mr. Bertorelli is saying its >rare. Im afraid that, despite the survival stats, in a pinch I might >hesitate about setting up for a landing in which i would likely be trying to >get out of a rapidly flooding plane while inverted. The part of the plane >that floods first is where your head is! Ive seen myself turn very stupid >very fast when presented with a disorienting physical situation (my first >spin, for example). Getting the inversion-dunking training isnt always >practicable, though if I lived near water I would certainly do it.
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    Paul B. May 16, 2022 At 10:24 am
    Its absurd to say they always flip. I showed a clip of a 172RG that didnt >flip. A friend ditched her 210 off Key West. Didnt flip. I interviewed a >survivor of a 172 ditching in the Bahamas. Didnt flip. A friend ditched a >182 in the breaker land off Naples. That one did flip. Theres a YouTube >video of a Caravan ditching shot from the inside. Didnt flip.
    The accident reports frequently lack enough detail to determine whether the >airplane pitch poled or not. But I gave the data suggesting it doesnt
    matter much. People egress safely at a rate exceeding 90 percent and >highwings are underrepresented in to total cohort.
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    Geoff C. May 16, 2022 At 10:27 am
    Having been a seaplane pilot into busy boat harbors, it would be very easy
    to quick plan a landing which would avoid collision with boat traffic. And >most boaters would quickly respond to assist in rescue operations.
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    Anthony V. May 16, 2022 At 10:30 am
    Actually, any small airplane with gear down is likely to turn turtle in a >controlled ditching. And dont forget that a good number of us cant swim >that may influence the choice of whether to ditch or not. I myself am one
    who could never be taught to swim, yet I have been flying over water for
    over 50 years, albeit almost always in large jet transports that have better >accommodations for a water landing than did the Titanic. But I once flew a >single engine airplane from Florida to Puerto Rico. One cultivates a
    somewhat fatalistic attitude in such circumstances, but that does not blind >me to the fact that a ditching is more than likely a better option than >landing on a city street, or a bridge. After all, the passengers probably
    can swim, and I am responsible for them too.
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    Gary B. May 16, 2022 At 3:15 pm
    any small airplane with gear down is likely to turn turtle in a controlled >ditching
    I have not seen any statistics prove that out. Sure, if I was in a retract I >would leave the gear up while ditching, but thats as much to reduce water >drag to reduce the decel as much as to mitigate any flipping tendencies.
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    Paul B. May 17, 2022 At 1:16 pm
    Actually, any small airplane with gear down is likely to turn turtle in a >controlled ditching.
    This is simply not true. And we should stop repeating it. Im boring into >some additional data on ditchings and of 36 incidents, two flipped. Thats 5 >percent. So the right way to look at it as pitch poling is possible, but
    its not frequent. And even when it is, egress is a high probability.
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    John W. May 16, 2022 At 11:47 am
    Intellect vs. instinct. A flying fish would go for water landing, humans >first look for the friendly environment of dry land.
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    James C. May 16, 2022 At 3:16 pm
    My concern wouldnt necessarily be with flipping over (though that is a >possibility), or with trying to save the airplane, but rather the chance
    that the landing (watering?) results in a head injury to someone aboard the >aircraft, and this results in drowning. Ive had egress training from the >FAA, and its definitely good stuff to have, but Im somewhat less confident >that I could do it after an abrupt stop. So, although I definitely dont
    want to use a roadway, I do want to stay dry, and this would be a very hard >choice.
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    R N. May 16, 2022 At 5:28 pm
    Paul
    Nice one. Did you say youd put the links to the other videos in the >description?
    I cant see them
    Thanks
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    Paul B. May 17, 2022 At 5:17 am
    They are in the YouTube description section. I have added them to the
    summary above.
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    Tyler V. May 17, 2022 At 12:29 am
    Psychology often trumps training, let alone youtube video breakdowns of the >stats. Not everyone is a carrier qualified fast mover pilot with the volume >of training it takes to be one and even they screw up in ways that make >monday morning quarterbacks scratch their heads. Remember that F35 that >bounced off the deck not too long ago? That pilot was probably better
    trained than every avweb commenter I see above the comment box right now, >still screwed up big time. Water landing is the probably the scariest forced >landing scenario short of the engine quitting on climb-out over the suburbs >with no good landing areas ahead or within a doable turn, thats a scenario
    a lot of pilots could face based on the sprawl surrounding a good number of >Americas airports. Even strong swimmers like me are instinctively inclined >take the chance on land, especially a roadway, vs water. The common sense >knowledge in the back of your mind that any non-trivial injury in the
    process of ditching probably will turn that ditching into a drowning because >of difficulty escaping doesnt help that. Many injuries which are perfectly >survivable on land in the absence of fire mean you wont be getting out of >that sinking plane unless a competent boater happens to be close enough to >drag you out before the plane slips beneath the waves.
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    David B. May 17, 2022 At 3:35 pm
    A few years ago I flew my 172 from Dallas to Seattle. The many hours I spent >over the mountains gave me little concern. Then we went up to Friday Harbor, >and the minutes we spent over the Puget Sound waters concerned me greatly. I >found that odd, because Ive also flown to Key West without much concern,
    but two things were different in Washington State. First, a cloud cover kept >us down low and I didnt have the mitigation of high altitude available to >me. The other is water temperature. I can swim, that doesnt worry me. But >even in summer I think the Puget Sound will incapacitate me in a matter of >minutes. Try to go down near a boat.
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    Peter L. May 17, 2022 At 5:16 pm
    Ive never ditched (knocks on wood)and a good thing, as the great bulk of
    my overwater time has been on ferry flights worldwide (primarily North >Atlantic, where despite immersion suit, life raft, PLB, etc., the ultimate >outcome of even a successful ditching is likely dire). I have, however, had
    a crash (in a Marchetti SF-260), just after departing Narsarsuaq, Greenland, >enroute to Canada. I had the choice between jettisoning the canopy and >ditching in the adjacent fjordwhich was frozen, but on which the ice was >quite thin, offering the possibility of punching through it and being stuck >underneathor picking the least worst spot on land, which was a sloping >rocky field. Thats what I chose; the airplane was totaled (at least so far >as insurance was concerned), I walked away without a scratch.
    A couple of thoughts:
    1.) It had thrown a rod, but was still running (after a fashion), and I was >still close enough to the airport that I might have been able to nurse it >back to the runwaybut if Id tried turning back across the fjord and it had >then quit outright, Id definitely have had to ditch. I remember thinking, >its not mine, its insured, its time to park it as a headed for the
    field which I knew was within gliding range. (I can add that cutting the >engine and stopping the prop provided a very significant increase in glide >performance.)
    2.) It was a huge psychological advantage for me that it wasnt my first, or >even my thousand and first, forced landing without power (I fly gliders) nor >my first, or even my hundred and first, off-airport landing (I fly gliders). >I happen to think that glider experienceeven if only a few hoursis >absolutely invaluable, and if I had my druthers as a CFI Id start every >student in them first. (Not to mention that its huge fun.)
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    Marc G. May 17, 2022 At 6:58 pm
    Great comment. Thank You.
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    Eric G. May 18, 2022 At 12:31 pm
    Great video. Besides the gulp of air, I have heard that it is a good idea to >take your feet off the rudders at the moment of impact. The rudders may give >you directional control on the way down. They may be abruptly jammed one way >or the other at impact breaking or spraining an ankle and are ineffective >after contact with the water anyway.
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    Black B. May 18, 2022 At 5:01 pm
    Conducting an emergency landing & exposing ANYONE on the ground to possible >injury (or death) is ABSOLUTELY UNFORGIVABLE!!!!
    My take
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    Rush S. May 19, 2022 At 9:52 am
    Exposing ANYONE on the ground to possible injury (or death) by flying over >inhabited areas is ABSOLUTELY UNFORGIVABLE!!!!
    Take two.
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    Tod L. May 19, 2022 At 4:01 am
    Did the pilot know how to swim? I am sure you experts know that answer.
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    Jeff W. May 19, 2022 At 7:50 am
    Likely half or more of these types of accidents could be prevented. We would >have much less to talk about with if pilots put safety and prevention before >all else. Sure, even brand new airplanes fail, I get it. But bad, or no, >maintenance is at fault many times, as is fuel starvation. Secondly flying >over the concrete jungle at a higher altitude affords more options to >newly-minted glider pilots too. Prevention.
    I flew a King Air B-200 for a company for a number of years. There was a >simple log entry that read left Outer Wing Panel P/N 0000 changed. Out of >curiosity I checked the part number thinking it was an inspection panel. >Nope. The wing panel is the entire wing from the nacelle outward. The wing >panel attaches to the mother ship, at the nacelle, with 4 bolts! Six months >after the aircraft was built in 1981 the captain turned the aircraft into a >glider by somehow forgetting to put fuel in the aircraft. The Aluminum >Recycling Center Next Left sign on the freeway turned the left wing into >future beer cans. I know what you are thinking, because I thought the same >thing every time the air got the least bit bumpy. What about the wing panel >attach fittings? There was no log entry even suggesting the attach points >were inspected.
    In grade school we learned this song Safety is my friend, and safety is
    your friend, the more we think of safety the safer we will be.
    God bless.
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    John M. May 19, 2022 At 8:24 am
    There were few options for the pilot. Looking at Google Earth you had the >beach which would have probably resulted in deaths of people on the beach. U >of Biscayne property has some open space but could have made that? The >Haulover Sand Bar is a large shallow area that would probably have been
    best. Just a couple of feet of water to land in so the potential for
    drowning would have been minimal.
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    Black B. May 19, 2022 At 12:54 pm
    Thats also my take John.
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    . May 20, 2022 At 1:20 am
    I appreciate the intellectual assessment Paul Bertorelli makes in all his >articles. Many thanks for making all of us smarter with data and diligent >reflection on the issue (and perhaps a little wittier too!) MM
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