People died this week just going into an underpass under a bridge. https://youtu.be/AXMI5M_Yhqw
They make pro tools to cut the seatbelt & break the window.
But what home-made tool is handy and easily made for the purpose?
On 12/25/2021 10:38 AM, Thomas wrote:
People died this week just going into an underpass under a bridge.
https://youtu.be/AXMI5M_Yhqw
They make pro tools to cut the seatbelt & break the window.
But what home-made tool is handy and easily made for the purpose?
Best tool is your brain. Don't drive into deep water. Or fast moving
water more than a couple of inches.
People died this week just going into an underpass under a bridge. https://youtu.be/AXMI5M_Yhqw
They make pro tools to cut the seatbelt & break the window.
But what home-made tool is handy and easily made for the purpose?
People died this week just going into an underpass under a bridge. https://youtu.be/AXMI5M_Yhqw
They make pro tools to cut the seatbelt & break the window.
But what home-made tool is handy and easily made for the purpose?
Seems to me it would be easier to undo the seat belt buckle, put the
window down, and open the door. Knowing how to swim would be helpful.
Thomas wrote
People died this week just going into an underpass under a bridge.
https://youtu.be/AXMI5M_Yhqw
They make pro tools to cut the seatbelt & break the window.
But what home-made tool is handy and easily made for the purpose?
Homemade... well, you could get a 10" long piece of 1.5" x 1/4" steel flat stock, grind saw teeth into it, then heat with your torch and oil quench
it to harden the teeth, then carbide shape the teeth while running water
over it, then hone. You would have a saw capable of cutting the belt and also capable of breaking the windows. If you make one end pointy and wrap duct tape around the other end it could also be used for self defense.
Spray it with iron phosphate to keep it from rusting.
Seems to me it would be easier to undo the seat belt buckle, put the
window down,
and open the door. Knowing how to swim would be helpful.
Seems to me it would be easier to undo the seat belt buckle, put the
window down, and open the door. Knowing how to swim would be helpful.
In article<sq7js1$rgs$1@dont-email.me>, Paul@Houston.Texas says...
Seems to me it would be easier to undo the seat belt buckle, put the
window down, and open the door. Knowing how to swim would be helpful.
With most cars now having electrical windows and door locks that
activate about 5 or 10 mph you stand a good chance of electrical failure
when the car is under water.
Paul in Houston TX wrote
Seems to me it would be easier to undo the seat belt buckle, put the
window down, and open the door. Knowing how to swim would be helpful.
In some cases, you can't undo the seatbelt.
You can't open the door in almost all cases.
And once the water presses against the window, you can't open the window.
For example I've watched the videos (they abound on the net) where even
the safety diver in the back seat had to cut his seatbelt when the car flipped upside down (seatbelts are apparently not designed to work when you're pressing against them upside down).
I've watched muliple videos where they tested how soon you have to start
to open the car door, where it's essentially immediately upon hitting the water. After that, it's a thousand pounds of pressure against the door,
which nobody can force no matter how strong you think you may be.
The only other time you can open the door is after the pressure equalizes, which means the air is essentially long gone, and even then, if the water
is deep, you'll never make it to the surface alive.
Likewise with the windows. While the electrical system may remain (as long
as you leave the key in the ignition), there is a thousand pounds of
pressure against the window also.
The paradoxical thought process is that you have to open the window BEFORE the water gets to that level, which is what most people do not want to do (because they feel it will let in more water - which it will).
The standard recommendation is SWO
S = seatbelt
W = window
O = get out
Swimming is optional.
That’s not true. The reality is that once the car has started to fill with >water, the electrically operated windows can no longer be opened.
People died this week just going into an underpass under a bridge. https://youtu.be/AXMI5M_Yhqw
They make pro tools to cut the seatbelt & break the window.
But what home-made tool is handy and easily made for the purpose?
Are the locks and window motors computer controlled in modern cars?
In my 06 Kia they are not comp controlled.
Motors and batteries work just fine submerged in water for a while.
In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 25 Dec 2021 22:01:27 -0600, Paul in Houston
TX <Paul@Houston.Texas> wrote:
Are the locks and window motors computer controlled in modern cars?
I'm not sure I have a modern car. It's a 2005.
In my 06 Kia they are not comp controlled.
There you go. Actually, I think my windows will go up or down for maybe
30 seconds after the key is out of the ignition. Hadn't thought about
it, but it might be the same time until the headlights go off.
So the computer is making them work longer.
Motors and batteries work just fine submerged in water for a while.
Yes, if the ignition is still on, I'm sure you have 2 or 3 times as
long.
Are people saying that the sideways pressure of the water forces the
window against its channel and that's why it won't go down?
On 12/25/2021 7:50 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 12/25/2021 10:38 AM, Thomas wrote:
People died this week just going into an underpass under a bridge.
https://youtu.be/AXMI5M_Yhqw
They make pro tools to cut the seatbelt & break the window.
But what home-made tool is handy and easily made for the purpose?
Best tool is your brain. Don't drive into deep water. Or fast moving
water more than a couple of inches.
Whatever tool you do use to break the window, make sure it's not aluminum! >https://youtu.be/EpsEwlrJI4g?t=120
Are people saying that the sideways pressure of the water forces the
window against its channel and that's why it won't go down?
Some are.
On 12/25/2021 11:42 PM, Bob F wrote:
Are people saying that the sideways pressure of the water forces the
window against its channel and that's why it won't go down?
Some are.
It was in the videos so look for them but you can think about it.
You already agree there's about a thousand pounds against the door.
Why wouldn't there be about a thousand pounds against the window?
(the actual pressure depends on the area - but go with the idea)
Certainly the same pressure per square inch against the door is against the windows once the water gets to that level so the question is really what happens to your car windows when you force them with appreciable force sideways?
I don't know the answer but the expert's suggestion is don't wait until it actually happens to find that out as these people may very well have done this week.
On 12/25/2021 11:42 PM, Bob F wrote:
Are people saying that the sideways pressure of the water forces the
window against its channel and that's why it won't go down?
Some are.
It was in the videos so look for them but you can think about it.
You already agree there's about a thousand pounds against the door.
Why wouldn't there be about a thousand pounds against the window?
(the actual pressure depends on the area - but go with the idea)
Certainly the same pressure per square inch against the door is against the >windows once the water gets to that level so the question is really what >happens to your car windows when you force them with appreciable force >sideways?
I don't know the answer but the expert's suggestion is don't wait until it >actually happens
to find that out as these people may very well have done
this week.
Unless the car is upside down, the pressure (PSI) on the windows will certainly be less than on the doors.
In article <sqa7kb$3n1$2@dont-email.me>, bobnospam@gmail.com says...
Unless the car is upside down, the pressure (PSI) on the windows will
certainly be less than on the doors.
It will be less on the windows than on the doors because of the area.
Say a car window has about 2 sqft of surface. That is 288 sqin for the window. If only 1 pound of pressure per sqin that is 288 pounds of
pressure. If 5 feet under water it will be just over 2 lb per sqin.
So you have about 500 pounds on the window if just slightly under water.
If around 10 feet under it will be around 1000 pounds of pressure in the window trying to push in on you .
In article <sq7js1$rgs$1@dont-email.me>, Paul@Houston.Texas says...
Seems to me it would be easier to undo the seat belt buckle, put the
window down, and open the door. Knowing how to swim would be helpful.
With most cars now having electrical windows and door locks that
activate about 5 or 10 mph you stand a good chance of electrical failure
when the car is under water.
On 12/25/2021 09:41 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article <sq7js1$rgs$1@dont-email.me>, Paul@Houston.Texas says...
Seems to me it would be easier to undo the seat belt buckle, put the
window down, and open the door. Knowing how to swim would be helpful.
With most cars now having electrical windows and door locks that
activate about 5 or 10 mph you stand a good chance of electrical failure
when the car is under water.
Not according to Mythbusters, at least for a while.
A window-breaking
device would definitely be useful, though. Just In Case. And DO NOT
KEEP IT IN YOUR TRUNK TOOLBOX!
I watched the video to figure out how this could have happened. No information other than total stupidity. You get stuck in an underpass.
You see the water rising. You open the window or door and climb out
onto the hood or roof or swim out of the underpass. IT'S A FUCKING
POND, not a raging river.
You DON'T just sit in your car and wait to drown.
People died this week just going into an underpass under a bridge. https://youtu.be/AXMI5M_Yhqw
They make pro tools to cut the seatbelt & break the window.
But what home-made tool is handy and easily made for the purpose?
knuttle <keith_nuttle@sbcglobal.net> wrote
Bob F wrote
Are people saying that the sideways pressure of the water forces
the window against its channel and that's why it won't go down?
Some are.
It was in the videos so look for them but you can think about it.
You already agree there's about a thousand pounds against the door.
It's not that I doubt this. I just want to understand what's being
said.
Where i go there isn't much chance of getting caught like this. I can't
think of any underpasses that dip below the normal street level. There
are streams that flood, but I don't commute anymore so I probably
wouldn't be out those days.
My brother once drove through some water and damaged his car that way.
Don't know details. maybe he just got the ignition system too wet.
Why wouldn't there be about a thousand pounds against the window?
(the actual pressure depends on the area - but go with the idea)
It's not that the pressure would be lower but that a very well made
window would be able to slide down even under pressure, wheels at
the bottom, facing outward, instead of glides or maybe nothing. It's certainly possible to make a window like that if they tried, but I don't think they try, and I don't blame them for that, given how rarely it's
an issue, one in 30 million per year?
Certainly the same pressure per square inch against the door
is against the windows once the water gets to that level so
the question is really what happens to your car windows
when you force them with appreciable force sideways?
I don't know the answer but the expert's suggestion
is don't wait until it actually happens
I'll get back to you. If I stop posting
suddenly, check the weather here.
to find that out as these people
may very well have done this week.
On 12/25/2021 7:38 AM, Thomas wrote:
People died this week just going into an underpass under a bridge.
https://youtu.be/AXMI5M_Yhqw
They make pro tools to cut the seatbelt & break the window.
But what home-made tool is handy and easily made for the purpose?
I bet this would handle the window problem.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Johnson-8-oz-Steel-Plumb-Bob-08/100184170?source=shoppingads&locale=en-US
Bob F <bobnospam@gmail.com> wrote
On 12/25/2021 7:38 AM, Thomas wrote:
People died this week just going into an underpass under a bridge.
https://youtu.be/AXMI5M_Yhqw
They make pro tools to cut the seatbelt & break the window.
But what home-made tool is handy and easily made for the purpose?
I bet this would handle the window problem.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Johnson-8-oz-Steel-Plumb-Bob-08/100184170?source=shoppingads&locale=en-US
This would work a lot better, particularly for a woman or kid. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-6-in-Automatic-Spring-Loaded-Center-Hole-Punch-70079H/302880581
On 12/25/2021 7:38 AM, Thomas wrote:
People died this week just going into an underpass under a bridge.
https://youtu.be/AXMI5M_Yhqw
They make pro tools to cut the seatbelt & break the window.
But what home-made tool is handy and easily made for the purpose?
I bet this would handle the window problem.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Johnson-8-oz-Steel-Plumb-Bob-08/100184170?source=shoppingads&locale=en-US
Water inside the car lessens the total force on the door and window. If
the interior water is as deep as the exterior water, the net force is 0.
So you have about 500 pounds on the window if just slightly under water.
If around 10 feet under it will be around 1000 pounds of pressure in the window trying to push in on you .
On 12/26/2021 1:03 PM, Bob F wrote:
Water inside the car lessens the total force on the door and window.
If the interior water is as deep as the exterior water, the net force
is 0.
This guy says there are 400 vehicle related drownings in the USA every
year.
https://youtu.be/rdqrduxK9To?t=130
These guys get out in an amazingly quick time. https://youtu.be/fymjbkGSta8?t=85
Mythbusters had a tough time getting out upside down & effectively died. https://youtu.be/QIx719_oer0?t=125
Here you can see Adam's feet NOT breaking the window time & again. https://youtu.be/QIx719_oer0?t=160
Paradoxically, this guy was taught to let the water get to the window https://youtu.be/ZJ7k3cR-ob4?t=140
At half way up the window he was able to open the door surprisingly.
Yet Adam tested it such that he couldn't open the door until way later. https://youtu.be/2YaMEW30bv4?t=30
In fact, Adam "died" trying to open the door so that's paradoxical. https://youtu.be/2YaMEW30bv4?t=104
This reporter doesn't know the difference between air & oxygen. https://youtu.be/gUD53NZ03zM?t=115
Given the conflicting information, I'd trust mythbusters over that one
video
that says you can open the door when the water gets halfway up the window.
As you have calculated the pressure on any given window will depend only on the depth of the water and the area of the window glass.
1 foot = 200 pounds of pressure 2 feet = 400 pounds of pressure
3 feet = 600 pounds of pressure 4 feet = 800 pounds of pressure https://youtu.be/rdqrduxK9To?t=755
Reminds me of a problem from Calculus 101.... The problem that is, not
the solution. I haven't used calculus in so long I doubt I could come up
with a valid answer.
I suspect that is because he had a wide open tailgate, allowing air to quickly escape, and water to enter quickly equalizing the pressure. A
nose heavy closed up car may not behave the same.
On 12/27/2021 1:44 AM, rbowman wrote:
Reminds me of a problem from Calculus 101.... The problem that is,
not the solution. I haven't used calculus in so long I doubt I could
come up with a valid answer.
Calculus is good for figuring out the volume of fluid in a tank or pool.
My kids learned the essence of calculus differently than we did.
Mine learned it from YouTube. Not because they wanted to.
But because I made them.
And YouTube was how.
You can find a million "formulaic" Calculus videos which "teach"
calculus the way we learned it which was just a series of rules to the
game (none of which made any sense to me but which only arrived at the correct answer).
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=learn+calculus
If you add "+3Blue1Brown" to that search, you get real learning, IMHO. https://www.3blue1brown.com/
I recommend something like this to get back up to speed on calculus. https://youtu.be/WUvTyaaNkzM?t=39
We used Thomas and his first edition came out in 1952 and is in the
14th edition now. I forget the author of the differential equations text.
I haven't had a use for it for many years but I've started playing
around with Arduinos and things that move around in the real world so I guessing I'll get back into it sooner or later if for nothing more than implementing PID controls in software.
On 12/27/2021 1:29 PM, rbowman wrote:
We used Thomas and his first edition came out in 1952 and is in the
14th edition now. I forget the author of the differential equations text.
I used to read my father's physics books where I was amazed that in the twenties they taught math the way we currently teach high school students.
I loved them.
Because I could understand them.
My college calculus and physics textbooks just gave us the equations for
the
most part and then we had to learn how the game worked of applying them.
But in the olden days, they didn't do it that way even in college
textbooks.
It may be they didn't regularly teach calculus in high school in those
days.
Maybe that's why calculus started from the basics even in college
textbooks.
Well, I took calculus in college. I never needed it. Did you?
(Of course I'm not a mechanical engineer or a rocket scientist but neither are most people. Did you ever really NEED calculus in your entire life?)
At least physics is taught as problem sets.
The high school I went to had an 'enriched curriculum' program. In the
summer between my junior and senior years I took a linear equations
course in preparation for calculus during my senior year. The course was
in the afternoon after the normal school schedule and was taught by a professor from RPI. The high school was almost adjacent to the RPI
campus so it was common to have interactions like that. The text was
Thomas, which was what was used at RPI.
Calculus definitely was not part of the normal high school curriculum.
The standard senior level math course was spherical trig. In retrospect, since I do a lot of GIS work, spherical trig would have been more
useful. This was 1964.
After graduation, I entered RPI and had a second dose of the aptly named
math professor, Dis Maly. His wife had taught the linear equations
course and was great; his droning could put a hyperactive 6 year old to sleep.
Well, I took calculus in college. I never needed it. Did you?
(Of course I'm not a mechanical engineer or a rocket scientist but neither >> are most people. Did you ever really NEED calculus in your entire life?)
Not really. The concepts are valuable but as far as sitting down with
pencil and paper and solving anything no. You can know what a FFT is and
even how to program the solution without delving into the notation.
When
I roll up my extension cord I realize that if I crank the spool at a
constant rpm the speed at which the cat will need to chase the loose end increases as a function of the circumference of the wire on the spool
but neither I nor the cat ever sat down and worked it out.
At least physics is taught as problem sets.
Physics at RPI was a two year course.
We used Resnick & Halliday since
Robert Resnick was a professor there. I consider that the most valuable college course I took. While I eventually migrated to software from
hardware I can't say FORTRAN IV proved to be all that useful although
there still is a lot of Fortran lurking around.
Fortunately it has
progressed past Hollerith cards. Being a lousy typist I do much better
with a decent programming editor.
On 12/27/2021 2:34 PM, rbowman wrote:
Brrrrrre.... RPI. Why not change the world? LOL
I went to school in a warmer clime that didn't care to change the world! :) However I like that you also enjoy reading older texts such as Thomas is.
I had to take Calculus again in college but only one year of it as I was
in the biological sciences so we didn't need that (we took statistics though).
What I remember is the front and back of the textbook had a long list in
a table of integrals, which, if memorized, was extremely important for passing the test. But, of course they were easily best forgotten soon thereafter.
You might be able to help me as I'm trying to learn how to create
geospatial PDFs for my grandchildren who are planning a week long hike
into the wilderness which spans multiple USGS quadrangles.
I can tell you more about what I need if you're interested but it's kind
of off topic for this newsgroup where it's more for the freeware groups
since each kid is expected to download and use the maps and the map
software on their Android or Apple phones.
Likewise, the air resistance goes up with the square of the speed, I
think, which tells me the faster I go, the worse my incremental gas
mileage will be.
Mine was for the bio sci majors so it was only a year of baby physics.
We never got past the classical physics for example.
I took Fortran before IV existed. :)
Cobol too.
Yuck.
Punched cards though. That was fancy stuff. Winchester drives too. Maybe
16KB of memory was allotted to us?
Don't remember.
Heady stuff that was in the days of the raised refrigerated floors and punched cards and long feed folded printer paper printouts in the bins
with your login on the first page all alphabetically sorted by the "operators."
Ah. You missed my typing class with IBM selectrics in college.
Fancy stuff they were.
Heavy as a boat anchor. Spinning ball and all that.
Anyway, maybe we should start a thread on what kids _should_ be taught.
Also if you can help me on my map problem for the grandkids, I'd love that.
I think my windows will go up or down for maybe
30 seconds after the key is out of the ignition.
With most cars now having electrical windows and door locks that
activate about 5 or 10 mph you stand a good chance of electrical failure
when the car is under water.
Not according to Mythbusters, at least for a while.
I watched the video to figure out how this could have happened. No information other than total stupidity. You get stuck in an underpass.
You see the water rising. You open the window or door and climb out
onto the hood or roof or swim out of the underpass. IT'S A FUCKING
POND, not a raging river.
You DON'T just sit in your car and wait to drown.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YaMEW30bv4
My high school taught the following, which was typical in the day I think. Freshman = Algebra 1 (required for graduation - dumbshits took it later) Sophomore = Geometry first half (required for college prep)
Sophomore = Trig the second half (required for college prep)
[snip]
My high school taught the following, which was typical in the day I
think.
Freshman = Algebra 1 (required for graduation - dumbshits took it later)
Sophomore = Geometry first half (required for college prep)
Sophomore = Trig the second half (required for college prep)
I remember my first trig class, which wasn't very useful. The teacher
spent the whole period going around and helping students to find the
right buttons on their calculators. Nothing was said about what trig IS.
[snip]
I remember my first trig class, which wasn't very useful. The teacher
spent the whole period going around and helping students to find the
right buttons on their calculators. Nothing was said about what trig IS.
On 12/28/2021 2:22 PM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
I remember my first trig class, which wasn't very useful. The teacher
spent the whole period going around and helping students to find the
right buttons on their calculators. Nothing was said about what trig IS.
Calculators?
I bet they would have cost thousands of dollars in my day. :)
And taken up the entire classroom and electrical supply too.
Eventually by the end of my trig semester we knew every value by heart.
Just as we did with hex when we learned to program in assembly language.
I forgot it all though.
Long ago.
I wonder if it ever comes back?
On 12/28/2021 2:22 PM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
I remember my first trig class, which wasn't very useful. The teacher
spent the whole period going around and helping students to find the
right buttons on their calculators. Nothing was said about what trig IS.
Calculators?
I bet they would have cost thousands of dollars in my day. :)
And taken up the entire classroom and electrical supply too.
K&E slide rule with the magnifying cursor for utmost accuracy. Slide
rules were a sort of reality check so you didn't wander off the path by several orders of magnitude.
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