• Huge increased financial value due to F1 investment

    From a425couple@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jan 4 09:20:24 2023
    XPost: rec.autos.sport.f1, rec.autos.sport.indy, rec.autos.sport.nascar

    from
    https://thejudge13.com/2023/01/03/fia-ruling-body-blow-to-toto-wolff/

    FIA RULING BODY BLOW TO TOTO WOLFF
    January 3, 2023 · by thejudge13 · in Daily F1 News and Comment. ·
    1 Vote

    The rapid increase in the popularity of Formula One means the piraña
    club – which was always squabbling over money – is now even more
    invested in its primary activity. Whilst some of the team bosses and
    primary sponsors are more interested in the competition, sadly they are
    in the minority. Prior to Mercedes buying the Brawn team and committing
    to a full works team in 2010, there German brand was well known for
    producing reliable cars which ended their life in Africa and the
    sub-continent as hard working durable taxi’s.

    Yet as the Mercedes AMG F1 boss admitted to Martin Brundle during an
    interview in 2020, “I looked at some data and you could see the audience
    we were able to generate, the advertising value for Mercedes and all the partners on the car.”

    Mercedes advertising value rockets 5000% from F1 participation

    “In 2012 we [Mercedes brand] had an advertising value of, believe it or
    not, $60 or 70 million, and today we are at $4.5billion, and that has
    unlocked so much potential.

    “A Mercedes today is perceived as a sporty car. It wasn’t 10 years ago.
    Of course, the road cars you buy, the AMG cars, they have an edge. We
    have become a really cool brand.

    “I think we [the F1 team] have played our part in helping the brand
    change its image by being in Formula 1, by being successful and
    triggering some emotion because fundamentally this is what you want to
    trigger, with all your marketing activities: an emotion. This is what we
    do.”

    Dominating the F1 landscape paid Mercedes handsomely

    Clearly those numbers suggest it was well worth the reported $1bn plus
    spent by Stuttgart in the research and development to build the most
    dominant V6 hybrid turbo power unit to launch on there F1 world in 2014.

    Yet as a leading voice in the Piranha club, Toto speaks with a forked
    tongue. When refusing to contemplate a new team in the form of Andretti Autosport joining the sport the Mercedes boss decided to argue that
    given the cost Mercedes and others had suffered in F1 to date made it
    unfair for them to suffer a dilution of 10% in value with and 11th team.

    Speaking at the team principals’ press conference in Miami Wolff argued
    the grid should remain as just 10 entrants.

    Wolff opposes Andretti F1 entry

    “We have 10 entries today, we divide the prize fund among those 10
    entries. We have invested considerable amounts over the last 10 years.

    “I mean, each of the organisations that’s sitting here on the podium has probably put more than a billion into the Formula 1 projects over the
    years, so it needs to be accretive. If a team comes in, how can you
    demonstrate that you’re bringing in more money than it’s actually
    costing: because the 11th team means a 10 per cent dilution for
    everybody else.”

    Not all the teams oppose the Andretti new entrant proposal in fact Zak
    Brown of McLaren has been positive over the possibility.

    2020 F1 Concorde agreement permits new teams

    Further, he Concorde Agreement signed between the FIA, FOM and the teams
    in 2020 makes a provision to prevent the dilution of value should a new
    team be allowed to join the grid.

    Any new team must pay a US$200 million fee, which gets split evenly
    between existing entrants to offset the loss in revenue caused by
    splitting prize money between 11 teams instead of ten.

    Gunther Steiner believes that this number should now be revised given
    that Formula One has moved on.

    Steiner wants Concorde agreement renegotiated

    Speaking to motorsport.com in June 2022 the Haas team boss observed,
    “The dilution fund was set a few years ago, when the value of Formula
    One was different. “I think one of the things will be, should we
    readjust it to current market rate, which is a lot more than that one?
    But I think that’s a very difficult process to do.

    “But if you’re really honest, and you look at when we signed the
    contract in 2020, teams were going for a lot less money than these days.

    The problem with Steiner’s argument is the Concorde agreement provides a binding set of rules between all the parties in Formula One for the set
    term of the agreement. If the teams have failed to factor in their
    growth in value when setting the dilution clause value, then that is
    either negligent or stupid.

    FIA shifts position on more than 10 teams

    When asked about a new F1 entrant in February 2022, the FIA issued a
    statement: “The FIA is not currently in a position to consider or
    comment on any expressions of interest or applications received from
    potential new entrant teams in respect of the FIA Formula One World Championship.”

    However in a blow to Wolff and others opposing the entry of Andretti
    Autosport, FIA president Mohammed ben Sulayem appears to have shifted
    his position.

    Ben Sulayem posted on twitter: “I have asked my @FIA team to look at launching an Expressions of Interest process for prospective new teams
    for the FIA @F1 World Championship.”

    The twitter responses were on the whole positive as fans appear to
    believe the more competition on the F1 grid the better the sport will be.

    FIA in perpetual power struggle

    The FIA, Formula One commercial and the teams are in a perpetual
    struggle over one thing or another. When discussing the increase of
    sprint races from 3 to 6, the FIA indicated it would need more money to
    police the additional responsibilities. At the time neither the teams
    nor FOM were forthcoming with any cash, so the FIA refused at that time
    to sanction three more sprints.

    Mercedes star Lewis Hamilton has pitched a season long running battle
    with Mohammed Ben Sulayem over wearing his jewellery in the car.
    Hamilton is winning the battle so far given his doctor’s note appeared
    to stay the stewards hands from sanctioning the British driver.

    Whether the FIA’s change of heart over new F1 entries is a reaction to
    any of the current and many niggles doing the rounds in the upper
    eschaton’s of F1, is uncertain.

    Timing of FIA announcement coincides with Andretti factory launch
    Yet the timing is interesting given the big Andretti media event as they
    broke ground on their new $200m state of the art factory in Indianapolis
    just before Christmas. Andretti Racing at the time stated this would be
    the base of operations for their F1 programme and they were progressing
    to be ready with an entry for 2024.

    The last time new teams were allowed into the sport was an unmitigated
    failure as each of them fell by the way with only Marussia Manor scoring
    any points.

    Yet the Andretti proposal is in another stratosphere when compared to
    the failed Lotus, Virgin and HRT entries of 2010. Andretti Autosport,
    led by Michael Andretti, operates worldwide in seven racing
    championships and focuses in eight different categories of motorsport
    with 17 full-time drivers.

    Andretti worlds apart from Lotus, Virgin and HRT
    Michael Andretti first became a team owner in 2003 after retiring from
    his full-time driving career. Nearly two decades later he has built a
    diverse, global enterprise competing at the highest levels of motorsport
    and reaching all five habitable continents.

    In his time as a team owner, Andretti has collected 17 championship
    titles and 257 race wins – including five Indianapolis 500 victories,
    victory at the Bathurst 1000, a Sebring 12 Hour title and wins in the
    ABB FIA Formula E World Championship and Extreme E series.

    Andretti have secured the $200m F1 entry fee from their sponsors
    Guggenheim Partners, who have also provided another $200m for the new
    facility build in Indiana.

    Could it be that Wolff and Mercedes fear the arrival of such a
    successful and diverse racing organisation?

    READ MORE: Aston Martin inside knowledge of Red Bull secrets

    Have your say, comment below
    Post navigation← New F1 teamsFIA President reacts to Ken Block’s death → 2 responses to “FIA ruling body blow to Toto Wolff”
    Dave January 3, 2023 at 11:42 · · Reply →
    I for one would like to see more teams and Manufacturers (works teams)
    in F1. This is a sport of the best of the best so why are other
    manufacturers not showing what who they are. I for one follow a lot of
    motor sports and would not consider Buying a brand of car thatdoes not
    compete in motersport.

    Chuck January 3, 2023 at 16:34 · · Reply →
    If FIA/FOM etc etc we’re to let more than 11 teams… let’s say 15 teams into the series:

    They will have to loosen the rules for power units and aero design while
    at the same time clamping then down.
    Stay with me for a minute…

    In order to make it reasonably ego safe for a brand to compete in F1
    with 15 teams, it will have to go back to the days where the WCC only
    won 2 or 3 races that season. That means there needs to be variance in
    the cars and not so cookie cutter that it relies on drs or “mandatory
    tire mental gymnastics” to create passing and slowing.

    Do what Newey said and combine it with a removal of front and rear wings.

    So a team gets 120k of fuel per race. the team determines the engine lay
    out. Use synthetic or 50% or 90% synthetic fuel. (Clearly electric
    vehicles are not sustainable or reliable after this last year)

    But then get rid of front and rear wings and open up the aero design allowances.

    Cars will look different, be able to draft and pass, be shorter which
    means PASSING… and different engine programs mean different cars will
    perform better at different tracks and at different parts of tracks. No
    more car trains.

    Then Chevy or Isuzu or Fiat or pick an oem could have a team race and
    they would be likely to get a race win or a podium every season and be
    able to tell their board of directors and fans that “we are winners too”.

    Because seriously, how bad does it look for Aston Martin etc to not win
    races or podium with a 4 time world champ and the driver (who a lot hate
    simply because his dad is rich) has a consistent record for the best 1st
    laps not to mention he allows his team mate parts and strategy priority
    always placing him down in quali and often race results.
    How does a factory team with no driver fighting and that type of line up
    not podium for this long and tell me that isn’t effecting image or sales?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From News@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jan 4 13:49:25 2023
    XPost: rec.autos.sport.f1, rec.autos.sport.indy, rec.autos.sport.nascar

    On 1/4/2023 12:20 PM, a425couple wrote:
    from
    https://thejudge13.com/2023/01/03/fia-ruling-body-blow-to-toto-wolff/

    FIA RULING BODY BLOW TO TOTO WOLFF
    January 3, 2023 · by thejudge13 · in Daily F1 News and Comment. ·
    1 Vote

    The rapid increase in the popularity of Formula One means the piraña
    club – which was always squabbling over money – is now even more
    invested in its primary activity. Whilst some of the team bosses and
    primary sponsors are more interested in the competition, sadly they are
    in the minority. Prior to Mercedes buying the Brawn team and committing
    to a full works team in 2010, there German brand was well known for
    producing reliable cars which ended their life in Africa and the sub-continent as hard working durable taxi’s.

    Yet as the Mercedes AMG F1 boss admitted to Martin Brundle during an interview in 2020, “I looked at some data and you could see the audience
    we were able to generate, the advertising value for Mercedes and all the partners on the car.”

    Mercedes advertising value rockets 5000% from F1 participation

    “In 2012 we [Mercedes brand] had an advertising value of, believe it or not, $60 or 70 million, and today we are at $4.5billion, and that has unlocked so much potential.

    “A Mercedes today is perceived as a sporty car. It wasn’t 10 years ago. Of course, the road cars you buy, the AMG cars, they have an edge. We
    have become a really cool brand.

    “I think we [the F1 team] have played our part in helping the brand
    change its image by being in Formula 1, by being successful and
    triggering some emotion because fundamentally this is what you want to trigger, with all your marketing activities: an emotion. This is what we do.”

    Dominating the F1 landscape paid Mercedes handsomely

    Clearly those numbers suggest it was well worth the reported $1bn plus
    spent by Stuttgart in the research and development to build the most
    dominant V6 hybrid turbo power unit to launch on there F1 world in 2014.

    Yet as a leading voice in the Piranha club, Toto speaks with a forked
    tongue. When refusing to contemplate a new team in the form of Andretti Autosport joining the sport the Mercedes boss decided to argue that
    given the cost Mercedes and others had suffered in F1 to date made it
    unfair for them to suffer a dilution of 10% in value with and 11th team.

    Speaking at the team principals’ press conference in Miami Wolff argued
    the grid should remain as just 10 entrants.

    Wolff opposes Andretti F1 entry

    “We have 10 entries today, we divide the prize fund among those 10
    entries. We have invested considerable amounts over the last 10 years.

    “I mean, each of the organisations that’s sitting here on the podium has probably put more than a billion into the Formula 1 projects over the
    years, so it needs to be accretive. If a team comes in, how can you demonstrate that you’re bringing in more money than it’s actually costing: because the 11th team means a 10 per cent dilution for
    everybody else.”

    Not all the teams oppose the Andretti new entrant proposal in fact Zak
    Brown of McLaren has been positive over the possibility.

    2020 F1 Concorde agreement permits new teams

    Further, he Concorde Agreement signed between the FIA, FOM and the teams
    in 2020 makes a provision to prevent the dilution of value should a new
    team be allowed to join the grid.

    Any new team must pay a US$200 million fee, which gets split evenly
    between existing entrants to offset the loss in revenue caused by
    splitting prize money between 11 teams instead of ten.

    Gunther Steiner believes that this number should now be revised given
    that Formula One has moved on.

    Steiner wants Concorde agreement renegotiated

    Speaking to motorsport.com in June 2022 the Haas team boss observed,
    “The dilution fund was set a few years ago, when the value of Formula
    One was different. “I think one of the things will be, should we
    readjust it to current market rate, which is a lot more than that one?
    But I think that’s a very difficult process to do.

    “But if you’re really honest, and you look at when we signed the
    contract in 2020, teams were going for a lot less money than these days.

    The problem with Steiner’s argument is the Concorde agreement provides a binding set of rules between all the parties in Formula One for the set
    term of the agreement. If the teams have failed to factor in their
    growth in value when setting the dilution clause value, then that is
    either negligent or stupid.

    FIA shifts position on more than 10 teams

    When asked about a new F1 entrant in February 2022, the FIA issued a statement: “The FIA is not currently in a position to consider or
    comment on any expressions of interest or applications received from potential new entrant teams in respect of the FIA Formula One World Championship.”

    However in a blow to Wolff and others opposing the entry of Andretti Autosport, FIA president Mohammed ben Sulayem appears to have shifted
    his position.

    Ben Sulayem posted on twitter: “I have asked my @FIA team to look at launching an Expressions of Interest process for prospective new teams
    for the FIA @F1 World Championship.”

    The twitter responses were on the whole positive as fans appear to
    believe the more competition on the F1 grid the better the sport will be.

    FIA in perpetual power struggle

    The FIA, Formula One commercial and the teams are in a perpetual
    struggle over one thing or another. When discussing the increase of
    sprint races from 3 to 6, the FIA indicated it would need more money to police the additional responsibilities. At the time neither the teams
    nor FOM were forthcoming with any cash, so the FIA refused at that time
    to sanction three more sprints.

    Mercedes star Lewis Hamilton has pitched a season long running battle
    with Mohammed Ben Sulayem over wearing his jewellery in the car.
    Hamilton is winning the battle so far given his doctor’s note appeared
    to stay the stewards hands from sanctioning the British driver.

    Whether the FIA’s change of heart over new F1 entries is a reaction to
    any of the current and many niggles doing the rounds in the upper eschaton’s of F1, is uncertain.

    Timing of FIA announcement coincides with Andretti factory launch
    Yet the timing is interesting given the big Andretti media event as they broke ground on their new $200m state of the art factory in Indianapolis
    just before Christmas. Andretti Racing at the time stated this would be
    the base of operations for their F1 programme and they were progressing
    to be ready with an entry for 2024.

    The last time new teams were allowed into the sport was an unmitigated failure as each of them fell by the way with only Marussia Manor scoring
    any points.

    Yet the Andretti proposal is in another stratosphere when compared to
    the failed Lotus, Virgin and HRT entries of 2010. Andretti Autosport,
    led by Michael Andretti, operates worldwide in seven racing
    championships and focuses in eight different categories of motorsport
    with 17 full-time drivers.

    Andretti worlds apart from Lotus, Virgin and HRT
    Michael Andretti first became a team owner in 2003 after retiring from
    his full-time driving career. Nearly two decades later he has built a diverse, global enterprise competing at the highest levels of motorsport
    and reaching all five habitable continents.

    In his time as a team owner, Andretti has collected 17 championship
    titles and 257 race wins – including five Indianapolis 500 victories, victory at the Bathurst 1000, a Sebring 12 Hour title and wins in the
    ABB FIA Formula E World Championship and Extreme E series.

    Andretti have secured the $200m F1 entry fee from their sponsors
    Guggenheim Partners, who have also provided another $200m for the new facility build in Indiana.

    Could it be that Wolff and Mercedes fear the arrival of such a
    successful and diverse racing organisation?

    READ MORE: Aston Martin inside knowledge of Red Bull secrets

    Have your say, comment below
    Post navigation← New F1 teamsFIA President reacts to Ken Block’s death →
    2 responses to “FIA ruling body blow to Toto Wolff”
    Dave January 3, 2023 at 11:42 · · Reply →
    I for one would like to see more teams and Manufacturers (works teams)
    in F1. This is a sport of the best of the best so why are other
    manufacturers not showing what who they are. I for one follow a lot of
    motor sports and would not consider Buying a brand of car thatdoes not compete in motersport.

    Chuck January 3, 2023 at 16:34 · · Reply →
    If FIA/FOM etc etc we’re to let more than 11 teams… let’s say 15 teams into the series:

    They will have to loosen the rules for power units and aero design while
    at the same time clamping then down.
    Stay with me for a minute…

    In order to make it reasonably ego safe for a brand to compete in F1
    with 15 teams, it will have to go back to the days where the WCC only
    won 2 or 3 races that season. That means there needs to be variance in
    the cars and not so cookie cutter that it relies on drs or “mandatory
    tire mental gymnastics” to create passing and slowing.

    Do what Newey said and combine it with a removal of front and rear wings.

    So a team gets 120k of fuel per race. the team determines the engine lay
    out. Use synthetic or 50% or 90% synthetic fuel. (Clearly electric
    vehicles are not sustainable or reliable after this last year)

    But then get rid of front and rear wings and open up the aero design allowances.

    Cars will look different, be able to draft and pass, be shorter which
    means PASSING… and different engine programs mean different cars will perform better at different tracks and at different parts of tracks. No
    more car trains.

    Then Chevy or Isuzu or Fiat or pick an oem could have a team race and
    they would be likely to get a race win or a podium every season and be
    able to tell their board of directors and fans that “we are winners too”.

    Because seriously, how bad does it look for Aston Martin etc to not win
    races or podium with a 4 time world champ and the driver (who a lot hate simply because his dad is rich) has a consistent record for the best 1st
    laps not to mention he allows his team mate parts and strategy priority always placing him down in quali and often race results.
    How does a factory team with no driver fighting and that type of line up
    not podium for this long and tell me that isn’t effecting image or sales?


    F1 as a formula has been dead man walking for years, despite sequential regulatory hedges. F1 as a business will surely follow.

    Bring back diversity. As discussed, put the cars on a mass/size
    dimensional diet. Dump the defined hedges.

    More like the old Group 7, less like today's F1.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)