• Max / Lewis not investigated - therefore still investigable?

    From Matt Larkin@21:1/5 to All on Mon Nov 15 05:33:16 2021
    Don't know if this is a thing or not, but as the stewards have not
    given an opinion on the Max / Lewis incident in the race, is it still
    open to a post race sanction? A bit like a footballer punching an
    opponent but it only being caught on a CCTV camera inside the ground
    after the match after a referee, linesman and VAR all miss the incident
    so can't make a judgement.

    I know we all *saw* it, but given how all of the journos seem to be pretty unanimous that they think the incident is massively inconsistent with
    other incidents and rulings this year, is the avenue still open to Mercedes
    to push it in front of a panel? Or do all in-race incidents need to be fully done and dusted during the race or within a short time afterwards?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Matt Larkin@21:1/5 to Matt Larkin on Mon Nov 15 05:39:43 2021
    On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 13:33:18 UTC, Matt Larkin wrote:
    Don't know if this is a thing or not, but as the stewards have not
    given an opinion on the Max / Lewis incident in the race, is it still
    open to a post race sanction? A bit like a footballer punching an
    opponent but it only being caught on a CCTV camera inside the ground
    after the match after a referee, linesman and VAR all miss the incident
    so can't make a judgement.

    I know we all *saw* it, but given how all of the journos seem to be pretty unanimous that they think the incident is massively inconsistent with
    other incidents and rulings this year, is the avenue still open to Mercedes to push it in front of a panel? Or do all in-race incidents need to be fully done and dusted during the race or within a short time afterwards?
    From a quick (probably too quick) review of the sporting regs, it doesn't appear as if a decision to investigate or not is covered by the various exemptions from appeals.

    "38) INCIDENTS DURING THE RACE
    38.1 The Race Director may report any on-track incident or suspected breach of these Sporting
    Regulations or the Code (an “Incident”) to the stewards. After review it shall be at the discretion
    of the stewards to decide whether or not to proceed with an investigation.
    The stewards may also investigate an Incident noted by themselves."

    So Masi "may" report (and the stewards can investigate off their own bat)
    but doesn't have to. The stewards "may", but don't have to.

    So can they be compelled to?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From geoff@21:1/5 to Matt Larkin on Tue Nov 16 13:01:58 2021
    On 16/11/2021 2:39 am, Matt Larkin wrote:
    On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 13:33:18 UTC, Matt Larkin wrote:
    Don't know if this is a thing or not, but as the stewards have not
    given an opinion on the Max / Lewis incident in the race, is it still
    open to a post race sanction? A bit like a footballer punching an
    opponent but it only being caught on a CCTV camera inside the ground
    after the match after a referee, linesman and VAR all miss the incident
    so can't make a judgement.

    I know we all *saw* it, but given how all of the journos seem to be pretty >> unanimous that they think the incident is massively inconsistent with
    other incidents and rulings this year, is the avenue still open to Mercedes >> to push it in front of a panel? Or do all in-race incidents need to be fully >> done and dusted during the race or within a short time afterwards?
    From a quick (probably too quick) review of the sporting regs, it doesn't appear as if a decision to investigate or not is covered by the various exemptions from appeals.

    "38) INCIDENTS DURING THE RACE
    38.1 The Race Director may report any on-track incident or suspected breach of these Sporting
    Regulations or the Code (an “Incident”) to the stewards. After review it shall be at the discretion
    of the stewards to decide whether or not to proceed with an investigation. The stewards may also investigate an Incident noted by themselves."

    So Masi "may" report (and the stewards can investigate off their own bat)
    but doesn't have to. The stewards "may", but don't have to.

    So can they be compelled to?


    Check out this video at 0:22 , 0:41, 1:04, and 1:17.

    Looks to me that VER, very momentarily, steered out into HAM causing an approach which would never have made the corner And of course HAM to
    take evasive action when he had right of way.

    I guess we will never get to see VER's steering-wheel video, and the FIA
    don't want to look at it.

    https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/video.2021-sao-paulo-grand-prix-hamilton-and-vertappen-tangle-on-lap-48.1716428716156816395.html?minutetv=true

    geoff

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Matt Larkin@21:1/5 to geoff on Tue Nov 16 00:41:23 2021
    On Tuesday, 16 November 2021 at 00:02:10 UTC, geoff wrote:
    On 16/11/2021 2:39 am, Matt Larkin wrote:
    On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 13:33:18 UTC, Matt Larkin wrote:
    Don't know if this is a thing or not, but as the stewards have not
    given an opinion on the Max / Lewis incident in the race, is it still
    open to a post race sanction? A bit like a footballer punching an
    opponent but it only being caught on a CCTV camera inside the ground
    after the match after a referee, linesman and VAR all miss the incident >> so can't make a judgement.

    I know we all *saw* it, but given how all of the journos seem to be pretty
    unanimous that they think the incident is massively inconsistent with
    other incidents and rulings this year, is the avenue still open to Mercedes
    to push it in front of a panel? Or do all in-race incidents need to be fully
    done and dusted during the race or within a short time afterwards?
    From a quick (probably too quick) review of the sporting regs, it doesn't appear as if a decision to investigate or not is covered by the various exemptions from appeals.

    "38) INCIDENTS DURING THE RACE
    38.1 The Race Director may report any on-track incident or suspected breach of these Sporting
    Regulations or the Code (an “Incident”) to the stewards. After review it shall be at the discretion
    of the stewards to decide whether or not to proceed with an investigation. The stewards may also investigate an Incident noted by themselves."

    So Masi "may" report (and the stewards can investigate off their own bat) but doesn't have to. The stewards "may", but don't have to.

    So can they be compelled to?

    Check out this video at 0:22 , 0:41, 1:04, and 1:17.

    Looks to me that VER, very momentarily, steered out into HAM causing an approach which would never have made the corner And of course HAM to
    take evasive action when he had right of way.

    I guess we will never get to see VER's steering-wheel video, and the FIA don't want to look at it.

    https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/video.2021-sao-paulo-grand-prix-hamilton-and-vertappen-tangle-on-lap-48.1716428716156816395.html?minutetv=true

    geoff
    I'd bet at some point Max's wheel footage comes out. We know they have it, they know we know they have it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From ~misfit~@21:1/5 to Matt Larkin on Tue Nov 16 22:56:05 2021
    On 16/11/2021 9:41 pm, Matt Larkin wrote:
    On Tuesday, 16 November 2021 at 00:02:10 UTC, geoff wrote:
    On 16/11/2021 2:39 am, Matt Larkin wrote:
    On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 13:33:18 UTC, Matt Larkin wrote:
    Don't know if this is a thing or not, but as the stewards have not
    given an opinion on the Max / Lewis incident in the race, is it still
    open to a post race sanction? A bit like a footballer punching an
    opponent but it only being caught on a CCTV camera inside the ground
    after the match after a referee, linesman and VAR all miss the incident >>>> so can't make a judgement.

    I know we all *saw* it, but given how all of the journos seem to be pretty >>>> unanimous that they think the incident is massively inconsistent with
    other incidents and rulings this year, is the avenue still open to Mercedes
    to push it in front of a panel? Or do all in-race incidents need to be fully
    done and dusted during the race or within a short time afterwards?
    From a quick (probably too quick) review of the sporting regs, it doesn't >>> appear as if a decision to investigate or not is covered by the various
    exemptions from appeals.

    "38) INCIDENTS DURING THE RACE
    38.1 The Race Director may report any on-track incident or suspected breach of these Sporting
    Regulations or the Code (an “Incident”) to the stewards. After review it shall be at the discretion
    of the stewards to decide whether or not to proceed with an investigation. >>> The stewards may also investigate an Incident noted by themselves."

    So Masi "may" report (and the stewards can investigate off their own bat) >>> but doesn't have to. The stewards "may", but don't have to.

    So can they be compelled to?

    Check out this video at 0:22 , 0:41, 1:04, and 1:17.

    Looks to me that VER, very momentarily, steered out into HAM causing an
    approach which would never have made the corner And of course HAM to
    take evasive action when he had right of way.

    I guess we will never get to see VER's steering-wheel video, and the FIA
    don't want to look at it.

    https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/video.2021-sao-paulo-grand-prix-hamilton-and-vertappen-tangle-on-lap-48.1716428716156816395.html?minutetv=true

    geoff
    I'd bet at some point Max's wheel footage comes out. We know they have it, they know we know they have it.

    If you pay the full quid and get the F1 app you can chose to follow any driver's on-board camera.
    Each feed is edited in real-time. 99% of the time it's the forward-facing camera but whoever was
    running Max' feed switched to the rear-facing camera just as Lewis passed him. WTF??? Is the feed
    run by the team? So nobody outside FOM / FIA got to see the front-facing feed. How... Convenient?
    --
    Shaun.

    "Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
    in the DSM"
    David Melville

    This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Matt Larkin@21:1/5 to All on Tue Nov 16 06:07:07 2021
    On Tuesday, 16 November 2021 at 09:56:11 UTC, ~misfit~ wrote:
    On 16/11/2021 9:41 pm, Matt Larkin wrote:
    On Tuesday, 16 November 2021 at 00:02:10 UTC, geoff wrote:
    On 16/11/2021 2:39 am, Matt Larkin wrote:
    On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 13:33:18 UTC, Matt Larkin wrote:
    Don't know if this is a thing or not, but as the stewards have not
    given an opinion on the Max / Lewis incident in the race, is it still >>>> open to a post race sanction? A bit like a footballer punching an
    opponent but it only being caught on a CCTV camera inside the ground >>>> after the match after a referee, linesman and VAR all miss the incident >>>> so can't make a judgement.

    I know we all *saw* it, but given how all of the journos seem to be pretty
    unanimous that they think the incident is massively inconsistent with >>>> other incidents and rulings this year, is the avenue still open to Mercedes
    to push it in front of a panel? Or do all in-race incidents need to be fully
    done and dusted during the race or within a short time afterwards?
    From a quick (probably too quick) review of the sporting regs, it doesn't
    appear as if a decision to investigate or not is covered by the various >>> exemptions from appeals.

    "38) INCIDENTS DURING THE RACE
    38.1 The Race Director may report any on-track incident or suspected breach of these Sporting
    Regulations or the Code (an “Incident”) to the stewards. After review it shall be at the discretion
    of the stewards to decide whether or not to proceed with an investigation.
    The stewards may also investigate an Incident noted by themselves."

    So Masi "may" report (and the stewards can investigate off their own bat)
    but doesn't have to. The stewards "may", but don't have to.

    So can they be compelled to?

    Check out this video at 0:22 , 0:41, 1:04, and 1:17.

    Looks to me that VER, very momentarily, steered out into HAM causing an >> approach which would never have made the corner And of course HAM to
    take evasive action when he had right of way.

    I guess we will never get to see VER's steering-wheel video, and the FIA >> don't want to look at it.

    https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/video.2021-sao-paulo-grand-prix-hamilton-and-vertappen-tangle-on-lap-48.1716428716156816395.html?minutetv=true

    geoff
    I'd bet at some point Max's wheel footage comes out. We know they have it, they know we know they have it.
    If you pay the full quid and get the F1 app you can chose to follow any driver's on-board camera.
    Each feed is edited in real-time. 99% of the time it's the forward-facing camera but whoever was
    running Max' feed switched to the rear-facing camera just as Lewis passed him. WTF??? Is the feed
    run by the team? So nobody outside FOM / FIA got to see the front-facing feed. How... Convenient?
    --
    Shaun.

    "Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
    in the DSM"
    David Melville

    This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.
    Max's onboard is now live on the official website

    https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.watch-all-the-angles-of-hamilton-and-verstappens-lap-48-battle-in-brazil.3ghMXVIaYdjY6WDID1QFte.html

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Matt Larkin@21:1/5 to All on Tue Nov 16 05:39:59 2021
    On Tuesday, 16 November 2021 at 09:56:11 UTC, ~misfit~ wrote:
    On 16/11/2021 9:41 pm, Matt Larkin wrote:
    On Tuesday, 16 November 2021 at 00:02:10 UTC, geoff wrote:
    On 16/11/2021 2:39 am, Matt Larkin wrote:
    On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 13:33:18 UTC, Matt Larkin wrote:
    Don't know if this is a thing or not, but as the stewards have not
    given an opinion on the Max / Lewis incident in the race, is it still >>>> open to a post race sanction? A bit like a footballer punching an
    opponent but it only being caught on a CCTV camera inside the ground >>>> after the match after a referee, linesman and VAR all miss the incident >>>> so can't make a judgement.

    I know we all *saw* it, but given how all of the journos seem to be pretty
    unanimous that they think the incident is massively inconsistent with >>>> other incidents and rulings this year, is the avenue still open to Mercedes
    to push it in front of a panel? Or do all in-race incidents need to be fully
    done and dusted during the race or within a short time afterwards?
    From a quick (probably too quick) review of the sporting regs, it doesn't
    appear as if a decision to investigate or not is covered by the various >>> exemptions from appeals.

    "38) INCIDENTS DURING THE RACE
    38.1 The Race Director may report any on-track incident or suspected breach of these Sporting
    Regulations or the Code (an “Incident”) to the stewards. After review it shall be at the discretion
    of the stewards to decide whether or not to proceed with an investigation.
    The stewards may also investigate an Incident noted by themselves."

    So Masi "may" report (and the stewards can investigate off their own bat)
    but doesn't have to. The stewards "may", but don't have to.

    So can they be compelled to?

    Check out this video at 0:22 , 0:41, 1:04, and 1:17.

    Looks to me that VER, very momentarily, steered out into HAM causing an >> approach which would never have made the corner And of course HAM to
    take evasive action when he had right of way.

    I guess we will never get to see VER's steering-wheel video, and the FIA >> don't want to look at it.

    https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/video.2021-sao-paulo-grand-prix-hamilton-and-vertappen-tangle-on-lap-48.1716428716156816395.html?minutetv=true

    geoff
    I'd bet at some point Max's wheel footage comes out. We know they have it, they know we know they have it.
    If you pay the full quid and get the F1 app you can chose to follow any driver's on-board camera.
    Each feed is edited in real-time. 99% of the time it's the forward-facing camera but whoever was
    running Max' feed switched to the rear-facing camera just as Lewis passed him. WTF??? Is the feed
    run by the team? So nobody outside FOM / FIA got to see the front-facing feed. How... Convenient?
    --
    Shaun.

    "Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
    in the DSM"
    David Melville

    This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.
    In fairness to whoever switched the feed at the time, they couldn't have predicted the corner - unless
    you're imputing some outrageous conspiracy!

    IAUI the cars can only supply one live feed at a time from the cameras, but if the car has multiple
    cameras then all can be downloaded post-race. So by now they should all be downloaded and
    reviewable. And publishable...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Alan@21:1/5 to Matt Larkin on Tue Nov 16 12:27:28 2021
    On 2021-11-16 6:07 a.m., Matt Larkin wrote:
    On Tuesday, 16 November 2021 at 09:56:11 UTC, ~misfit~ wrote:
    On 16/11/2021 9:41 pm, Matt Larkin wrote:
    On Tuesday, 16 November 2021 at 00:02:10 UTC, geoff wrote:
    On 16/11/2021 2:39 am, Matt Larkin wrote:
    On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 13:33:18 UTC, Matt Larkin wrote:
    Don't know if this is a thing or not, but as the stewards have not >>>>>> given an opinion on the Max / Lewis incident in the race, is it still >>>>>> open to a post race sanction? A bit like a footballer punching an
    opponent but it only being caught on a CCTV camera inside the ground >>>>>> after the match after a referee, linesman and VAR all miss the incident >>>>>> so can't make a judgement.

    I know we all *saw* it, but given how all of the journos seem to be pretty
    unanimous that they think the incident is massively inconsistent with >>>>>> other incidents and rulings this year, is the avenue still open to Mercedes
    to push it in front of a panel? Or do all in-race incidents need to be fully
    done and dusted during the race or within a short time afterwards?
    From a quick (probably too quick) review of the sporting regs, it doesn't
    appear as if a decision to investigate or not is covered by the various >>>>> exemptions from appeals.

    "38) INCIDENTS DURING THE RACE
    38.1 The Race Director may report any on-track incident or suspected breach of these Sporting
    Regulations or the Code (an “Incident”) to the stewards. After review it shall be at the discretion
    of the stewards to decide whether or not to proceed with an investigation.
    The stewards may also investigate an Incident noted by themselves."

    So Masi "may" report (and the stewards can investigate off their own bat) >>>>> but doesn't have to. The stewards "may", but don't have to.

    So can they be compelled to?

    Check out this video at 0:22 , 0:41, 1:04, and 1:17.

    Looks to me that VER, very momentarily, steered out into HAM causing an >>>> approach which would never have made the corner And of course HAM to
    take evasive action when he had right of way.

    I guess we will never get to see VER's steering-wheel video, and the FIA >>>> don't want to look at it.

    https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/video.2021-sao-paulo-grand-prix-hamilton-and-vertappen-tangle-on-lap-48.1716428716156816395.html?minutetv=true

    geoff
    I'd bet at some point Max's wheel footage comes out. We know they have it, >>> they know we know they have it.
    If you pay the full quid and get the F1 app you can chose to follow any driver's on-board camera.
    Each feed is edited in real-time. 99% of the time it's the forward-facing camera but whoever was
    running Max' feed switched to the rear-facing camera just as Lewis passed him. WTF??? Is the feed
    run by the team? So nobody outside FOM / FIA got to see the front-facing feed. How... Convenient?
    --
    Shaun.

    "Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
    in the DSM"
    David Melville

    This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.
    Max's onboard is now live on the official website

    https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.watch-all-the-angles-of-hamilton-and-verstappens-lap-48-battle-in-brazil.3ghMXVIaYdjY6WDID1QFte.html


    So I guess the only question I've got remaining is:

    Did the Race Director see that video at the time?

    If he did, he may have made his own decision that there was no need for
    any further investigation.

    And if he did see the video and the he did decide that, I still think
    he's wrong, because the video does show Verstappen picking a line and a
    speed which was pretty clearly going to carry him right to the exit kerb
    and hence was going to put Hamilton off the track entirely, and that's
    still a breach of the requirement to leave a competitor racing room, but
    it at least explains how we got where we are.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From geoff@21:1/5 to Alan on Wed Nov 17 09:40:54 2021
    On 17/11/2021 9:27 am, Alan wrote:
    On 2021-11-16 6:07 a.m., Matt Larkin wrote:

    This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any
    half-arsed self-promoting software.
    Max's onboard is now live on the official website

    https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.watch-all-the-angles-of-hamilton-and-verstappens-lap-48-battle-in-brazil.3ghMXVIaYdjY6WDID1QFte.html



    So I guess the only question I've got remaining is:

    Did the Race Director see that video at the time?

    If he did, he may have made his own decision that there was no need for
    any further investigation.

    And if he did see the video and the he did decide that, I still think
    he's wrong, because the video does show Verstappen picking a line and a
    speed which was pretty clearly going to carry him right to the exit kerb
    and hence was going to put Hamilton off the track entirely, and that's
    still a breach of the requirement to leave a competitor racing room, but
    it at least explains how we got where we are.

    So no deliberate steering twitch *at* HAM then , but clearly a
    deliberate line that was never remotely likely to make the corner.

    geoff

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mark Jackson@21:1/5 to Alan on Tue Nov 16 16:01:51 2021
    On 11/16/2021 3:27 PM, Alan wrote:
    So I guess the only question I've got remaining is:

    Did the Race Director see that video at the time?

    Masi has said that they did not, that it was not available until after
    the event; Mercedes has filed for right-of-review:

    "The rules of right of review are clear, and require that competitors
    bring ‘a significant and relevant new element’ that was ‘unavailable to the parties seeking the review at the time of the decision concerned.’

    "Mercedes will first have to prove that a new element has been
    discovered, and this should be straightforward with the onboard footage
    from Verstappen’s car.

    "It emerged on the Sunday night in Brazil, after the FIA decided not to investigate the Verstappen/Hamilton incident, that race control had not
    had access to the forward facing onboard camera from Verstappen’s car.

    "F1’s current technology limits just one live feed off each car and, at
    the time of the incident, Verstappen’s Red Bull was broadcasting its
    rear facing onboard."

    https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/mercedes-asks-for-right-to-review-over-verstappen-hamilton-brazil-incident/6788474/
    [paywalled]

    --
    Mark Jackson - https://mark-jackson.online/
    The best I can do is freak out in moderation.
    - Bob Mankoff

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Alan@21:1/5 to geoff on Tue Nov 16 13:18:07 2021
    On 2021-11-16 12:40 p.m., geoff wrote:
    On 17/11/2021 9:27 am, Alan wrote:
    On 2021-11-16 6:07 a.m., Matt Larkin wrote:

    This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any
    half-arsed self-promoting software.
    Max's onboard is now live on the official website

    https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.watch-all-the-angles-of-hamilton-and-verstappens-lap-48-battle-in-brazil.3ghMXVIaYdjY6WDID1QFte.html



    So I guess the only question I've got remaining is:

    Did the Race Director see that video at the time?

    If he did, he may have made his own decision that there was no need
    for any further investigation.

    And if he did see the video and the he did decide that, I still think
    he's wrong, because the video does show Verstappen picking a line and
    a speed which was pretty clearly going to carry him right to the exit
    kerb and hence was going to put Hamilton off the track entirely, and
    that's still a breach of the requirement to leave a competitor racing
    room, but it at least explains how we got where we are.

    So no deliberate steering twitch *at* HAM then , but clearly a
    deliberate line that was never remotely likely to make the corner.

    It was going to make the corner until Verstappen picked up some understeer.

    But he's responsible for leaving room...

    ...and he clearly wasn't going to leave any.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Alan@21:1/5 to Mark Jackson on Tue Nov 16 13:42:49 2021
    On 2021-11-16 1:01 p.m., Mark Jackson wrote:
    On 11/16/2021 3:27 PM, Alan wrote:
    So I guess the only question I've got remaining is:

    Did the Race Director see that video at the time?

    Masi has said that they did not, that it was not available until after
    the event; Mercedes has filed for right-of-review:

    "The rules of right of review are clear, and require that competitors
    bring ‘a significant and relevant new element’ that was ‘unavailable to the parties seeking the review at the time of the decision concerned.’

    "Mercedes will first have to prove that a new element has been
    discovered, and this should be straightforward with the onboard footage
    from Verstappen’s car.

    "It emerged on the Sunday night in Brazil, after the FIA decided not to investigate the Verstappen/Hamilton incident, that race control had not
    had access to the forward facing onboard camera from Verstappen’s car.

    "F1’s current technology limits just one live feed off each car and, at
    the time of the incident, Verstappen’s Red Bull was broadcasting its
    rear facing onboard."

    https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/mercedes-asks-for-right-to-review-over-verstappen-hamilton-brazil-incident/6788474/
    [paywalled]


    All the more reason he should have sent it for further investigation, then.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From News@21:1/5 to Mark Jackson on Tue Nov 16 16:59:07 2021
    On 11/16/2021 4:01 PM, Mark Jackson wrote:
    On 11/16/2021 3:27 PM, Alan wrote:
    So I guess the only question I've got remaining is:

    Did the Race Director see that video at the time?

    Masi has said that they did not, that it was not available until after
    the event; Mercedes has filed for right-of-review:

    "The rules of right of review are clear, and require that competitors
    bring ‘a significant and relevant new element’ that was ‘unavailable to the parties seeking the review at the time of the decision concerned.’

    "Mercedes will first have to prove that a new element has been
    discovered, and this should be straightforward with the onboard footage
    from Verstappen’s car.

    "It emerged on the Sunday night in Brazil, after the FIA decided not to investigate the Verstappen/Hamilton incident, that race control had not
    had access to the forward facing onboard camera from Verstappen’s car.

    "F1’s current technology limits just one live feed off each car and, at
    the time of the incident, Verstappen’s Red Bull was broadcasting its
    rear facing onboard."

    https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/mercedes-asks-for-right-to-review-over-verstappen-hamilton-brazil-incident/6788474/
    [paywalled]



    Sure. And let's go to the video of the Mercs' flexy flaps, a full-time
    dynamic DRS, on their 'legal' static tested wing.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From geoff@21:1/5 to News on Wed Nov 17 11:58:02 2021
    On 17/11/2021 10:59 am, News wrote:
    On 11/16/2021 4:01 PM, Mark Jackson wrote:
    On 11/16/2021 3:27 PM, Alan wrote:
    So I guess the only question I've got remaining is:

    Did the Race Director see that video at the time?

    Masi has said that they did not, that it was not available until after
    the event; Mercedes has filed for right-of-review:

    "The rules of right of review are clear, and require that competitors
    bring ‘a significant and relevant new element’ that was ‘unavailable >> to the parties seeking the review at the time of the decision concerned.’ >>
    "Mercedes will first have to prove that a new element has been
    discovered, and this should be straightforward with the onboard
    footage from Verstappen’s car.

    "It emerged on the Sunday night in Brazil, after the FIA decided not
    to investigate the Verstappen/Hamilton incident, that race control had
    not had access to the forward facing onboard camera from Verstappen’s
    car.

    "F1’s current technology limits just one live feed off each car and,
    at the time of the incident, Verstappen’s Red Bull was broadcasting
    its rear facing onboard."

    https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/mercedes-asks-for-right-to-review-over-verstappen-hamilton-brazil-incident/6788474/
    [paywalled]



    Sure. And let's go to the video of the Mercs' flexy flaps, a full-time dynamic DRS, on their 'legal' static tested wing.

    Surely you mean HAM's flexi-flaps. And probably TSU's too. Everybody
    elses' flexi-flaps would be OK, though not 'too sure' about the
    Hispanics. Eh ?

    geoff

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From geoff@21:1/5 to Alan on Wed Nov 17 11:54:57 2021
    On 17/11/2021 10:18 am, Alan wrote:
    On 2021-11-16 12:40 p.m., geoff wrote:
    On 17/11/2021 9:27 am, Alan wrote:
    On 2021-11-16 6:07 a.m., Matt Larkin wrote:

    This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any
    half-arsed self-promoting software.
    Max's onboard is now live on the official website

    https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.watch-all-the-angles-of-hamilton-and-verstappens-lap-48-battle-in-brazil.3ghMXVIaYdjY6WDID1QFte.html



    So I guess the only question I've got remaining is:

    Did the Race Director see that video at the time?

    If he did, he may have made his own decision that there was no need
    for any further investigation.

    And if he did see the video and the he did decide that, I still think
    he's wrong, because the video does show Verstappen picking a line and
    a speed which was pretty clearly going to carry him right to the exit
    kerb and hence was going to put Hamilton off the track entirely, and
    that's still a breach of the requirement to leave a competitor racing
    room, but it at least explains how we got where we are.

    So no deliberate steering twitch *at* HAM then , but clearly a
    deliberate line that was never remotely likely to make the corner.

    It was going to make the corner until Verstappen picked up some understeer.

    Never. He chose the angle of entry into the corner and width 'early on'.


    But he's responsible for leaving room...

    ...and he clearly wasn't going to leave any.

    That too.

    geoff

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Alan@21:1/5 to geoff on Tue Nov 16 16:31:24 2021
    On 2021-11-16 2:54 p.m., geoff wrote:
    On 17/11/2021 10:18 am, Alan wrote:
    On 2021-11-16 12:40 p.m., geoff wrote:
    On 17/11/2021 9:27 am, Alan wrote:
    On 2021-11-16 6:07 a.m., Matt Larkin wrote:

    This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any
    half-arsed self-promoting software.
    Max's onboard is now live on the official website

    https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.watch-all-the-angles-of-hamilton-and-verstappens-lap-48-battle-in-brazil.3ghMXVIaYdjY6WDID1QFte.html



    So I guess the only question I've got remaining is:

    Did the Race Director see that video at the time?

    If he did, he may have made his own decision that there was no need
    for any further investigation.

    And if he did see the video and the he did decide that, I still
    think he's wrong, because the video does show Verstappen picking a
    line and a speed which was pretty clearly going to carry him right
    to the exit kerb and hence was going to put Hamilton off the track
    entirely, and that's still a breach of the requirement to leave a
    competitor racing room, but it at least explains how we got where we
    are.

    So no deliberate steering twitch *at* HAM then , but clearly a
    deliberate line that was never remotely likely to make the corner.

    It was going to make the corner until Verstappen picked up some
    understeer.

    Never. He chose the angle of entry into the corner and width 'early on'.

    Sorry, but I think you're wrong.

    Watch the video and you can see the moment when the car's change of
    direction disappears despite Verstappen not commanding it with a change
    in steering angle.



    But he's responsible for leaving room...

    ...and he clearly wasn't going to leave any.

    That too.

    That only.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Alan@21:1/5 to News on Tue Nov 16 16:32:10 2021
    On 2021-11-16 1:59 p.m., News wrote:
    On 11/16/2021 4:01 PM, Mark Jackson wrote:
    On 11/16/2021 3:27 PM, Alan wrote:
    So I guess the only question I've got remaining is:

    Did the Race Director see that video at the time?

    Masi has said that they did not, that it was not available until after
    the event; Mercedes has filed for right-of-review:

    "The rules of right of review are clear, and require that competitors
    bring ‘a significant and relevant new element’ that was ‘unavailable >> to the parties seeking the review at the time of the decision concerned.’ >>
    "Mercedes will first have to prove that a new element has been
    discovered, and this should be straightforward with the onboard
    footage from Verstappen’s car.

    "It emerged on the Sunday night in Brazil, after the FIA decided not
    to investigate the Verstappen/Hamilton incident, that race control had
    not had access to the forward facing onboard camera from Verstappen’s
    car.

    "F1’s current technology limits just one live feed off each car and,
    at the time of the incident, Verstappen’s Red Bull was broadcasting
    its rear facing onboard."

    https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/mercedes-asks-for-right-to-review-over-verstappen-hamilton-brazil-incident/6788474/
    [paywalled]



    Sure. And let's go to the video of the Mercs' flexy flaps, a full-time dynamic DRS, on their 'legal' static tested wing.

    There is no need for quotes around "legal".

    It passed the tests: it IS legal.

    Period.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Alan@21:1/5 to geoff on Tue Nov 16 16:35:24 2021
    On 2021-11-15 4:01 p.m., geoff wrote:
    On 16/11/2021 2:39 am, Matt Larkin wrote:
    On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 13:33:18 UTC, Matt Larkin wrote:
    Don't know if this is a thing or not, but as the stewards have not
    given an opinion on the Max / Lewis incident in the race, is it still
    open to a post race sanction? A bit like a footballer punching an
    opponent but it only being caught on a CCTV camera inside the ground
    after the match after a referee, linesman and VAR all miss the incident
    so can't make a judgement.

    I know we all *saw* it, but given how all of the journos seem to be
    pretty
    unanimous that they think the incident is massively inconsistent with
    other incidents and rulings this year, is the avenue still open to
    Mercedes
    to push it in front of a panel? Or do all in-race incidents need to
    be fully
    done and dusted during the race or within a short time afterwards?
     From a quick (probably too quick) review of the sporting regs, it
    doesn't
    appear as if a decision to investigate or not is covered by the various
    exemptions from appeals.

    "38) INCIDENTS DURING THE RACE
    38.1 The Race Director may report any on-track incident or suspected
    breach of these Sporting
    Regulations or the Code (an “Incident”) to the stewards. After review
    it shall be at the discretion
    of the stewards to decide whether or not to proceed with an
    investigation.
    The stewards may also investigate an Incident noted by themselves."

    So Masi "may" report (and the stewards can investigate off their own bat)
    but doesn't have to.  The stewards "may", but don't have to.

    So can they be compelled to?


    Check out this video at 0:22 , 0:41, 1:04, and 1:17.

    Looks to me that VER, very momentarily, steered out into HAM causing an approach which would never have made the corner And of course HAM to
    take evasive action when he had right of way.

    But now you agree that at no time did Verstappen "steer OUT" right?


    I guess we will never get to see VER's steering-wheel video, and the FIA don't want to look at it.

    https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/video.2021-sao-paulo-grand-prix-hamilton-and-vertappen-tangle-on-lap-48.1716428716156816395.html?minutetv=true


    geoff



    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From geoff@21:1/5 to Alan on Wed Nov 17 14:43:20 2021
    On 17/11/2021 1:35 pm, Alan wrote:
    On 2021-11-15 4:01 p.m., geoff wrote:
    On 16/11/2021 2:39 am, Matt Larkin wrote:
    On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 13:33:18 UTC, Matt Larkin wrote:
    Don't know if this is a thing or not, but as the stewards have not
    given an opinion on the Max / Lewis incident in the race, is it still
    open to a post race sanction? A bit like a footballer punching an
    opponent but it only being caught on a CCTV camera inside the ground
    after the match after a referee, linesman and VAR all miss the incident >>>> so can't make a judgement.

    I know we all *saw* it, but given how all of the journos seem to be
    pretty
    unanimous that they think the incident is massively inconsistent with
    other incidents and rulings this year, is the avenue still open to
    Mercedes
    to push it in front of a panel? Or do all in-race incidents need to
    be fully
    done and dusted during the race or within a short time afterwards?
     From a quick (probably too quick) review of the sporting regs, it
    doesn't
    appear as if a decision to investigate or not is covered by the various
    exemptions from appeals.

    "38) INCIDENTS DURING THE RACE
    38.1 The Race Director may report any on-track incident or suspected
    breach of these Sporting
    Regulations or the Code (an “Incident”) to the stewards. After review >>> it shall be at the discretion
    of the stewards to decide whether or not to proceed with an
    investigation.
    The stewards may also investigate an Incident noted by themselves."

    So Masi "may" report (and the stewards can investigate off their own
    bat)
    but doesn't have to.  The stewards "may", but don't have to.

    So can they be compelled to?


    Check out this video at 0:22 , 0:41, 1:04, and 1:17.

    Looks to me that VER, very momentarily, steered out into HAM causing
    an approach which would never have made the corner And of course HAM
    to take evasive action when he had right of way.

    But now you agree that at no time did Verstappen "steer OUT" right?

    Yes, already. But the initially trajectory was never going to make the
    edge, oversterer later or not.


    I guess we will never get to see VER's steering-wheel video, and the
    FIA don't want to look at it.

    Already.

    geoff

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Alan@21:1/5 to geoff on Tue Nov 16 17:48:11 2021
    On 2021-11-16 5:43 p.m., geoff wrote:
    On 17/11/2021 1:35 pm, Alan wrote:
    On 2021-11-15 4:01 p.m., geoff wrote:
    On 16/11/2021 2:39 am, Matt Larkin wrote:
    On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 13:33:18 UTC, Matt Larkin wrote:
    Don't know if this is a thing or not, but as the stewards have not
    given an opinion on the Max / Lewis incident in the race, is it still >>>>> open to a post race sanction? A bit like a footballer punching an
    opponent but it only being caught on a CCTV camera inside the ground >>>>> after the match after a referee, linesman and VAR all miss the
    incident
    so can't make a judgement.

    I know we all *saw* it, but given how all of the journos seem to be
    pretty
    unanimous that they think the incident is massively inconsistent with >>>>> other incidents and rulings this year, is the avenue still open to
    Mercedes
    to push it in front of a panel? Or do all in-race incidents need to
    be fully
    done and dusted during the race or within a short time afterwards?
     From a quick (probably too quick) review of the sporting regs, it
    doesn't
    appear as if a decision to investigate or not is covered by the various >>>> exemptions from appeals.

    "38) INCIDENTS DURING THE RACE
    38.1 The Race Director may report any on-track incident or suspected
    breach of these Sporting
    Regulations or the Code (an “Incident”) to the stewards. After
    review it shall be at the discretion
    of the stewards to decide whether or not to proceed with an
    investigation.
    The stewards may also investigate an Incident noted by themselves."

    So Masi "may" report (and the stewards can investigate off their own
    bat)
    but doesn't have to.  The stewards "may", but don't have to.

    So can they be compelled to?


    Check out this video at 0:22 , 0:41, 1:04, and 1:17.

    Looks to me that VER, very momentarily, steered out into HAM causing
    an approach which would never have made the corner And of course HAM
    to take evasive action when he had right of way.

    But now you agree that at no time did Verstappen "steer OUT" right?

    Yes, already. But the initially trajectory was never going to make the
    edge, oversterer later or not.

    You're wrong. You're not even close to right.

    And the problem was UNDERSTEER.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From geoff@21:1/5 to Alan on Wed Nov 17 14:50:27 2021
    On 17/11/2021 2:48 pm, Alan wrote:
    On 2021-11-16 5:43 p.m., geoff wrote:
    On 17/11/2021 1:35 pm, Alan wrote:
    On 2021-11-15 4:01 p.m., geoff wrote:
    On 16/11/2021 2:39 am, Matt Larkin wrote:
    On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 13:33:18 UTC, Matt Larkin wrote:
    Don't know if this is a thing or not, but as the stewards have not >>>>>> given an opinion on the Max / Lewis incident in the race, is it still >>>>>> open to a post race sanction? A bit like a footballer punching an
    opponent but it only being caught on a CCTV camera inside the ground >>>>>> after the match after a referee, linesman and VAR all miss the
    incident
    so can't make a judgement.

    I know we all *saw* it, but given how all of the journos seem to
    be pretty
    unanimous that they think the incident is massively inconsistent with >>>>>> other incidents and rulings this year, is the avenue still open to >>>>>> Mercedes
    to push it in front of a panel? Or do all in-race incidents need
    to be fully
    done and dusted during the race or within a short time afterwards?
     From a quick (probably too quick) review of the sporting regs, it
    doesn't
    appear as if a decision to investigate or not is covered by the
    various
    exemptions from appeals.

    "38) INCIDENTS DURING THE RACE
    38.1 The Race Director may report any on-track incident or
    suspected breach of these Sporting
    Regulations or the Code (an “Incident”) to the stewards. After
    review it shall be at the discretion
    of the stewards to decide whether or not to proceed with an
    investigation.
    The stewards may also investigate an Incident noted by themselves."

    So Masi "may" report (and the stewards can investigate off their
    own bat)
    but doesn't have to.  The stewards "may", but don't have to.

    So can they be compelled to?


    Check out this video at 0:22 , 0:41, 1:04, and 1:17.

    Looks to me that VER, very momentarily, steered out into HAM causing
    an approach which would never have made the corner And of course HAM
    to take evasive action when he had right of way.

    But now you agree that at no time did Verstappen "steer OUT" right?

    Yes, already. But the initially trajectory was never going to make the
    edge, oversterer later or not.

    You're wrong. You're not even close to right.

    And the problem was UNDERSTEER.

    Yes, mis-typed.

    Disagree with anything here ?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPKjVrxvgbI

    geoff

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Alan@21:1/5 to geoff on Tue Nov 16 18:19:48 2021
    On 2021-11-16 5:50 p.m., geoff wrote:
    On 17/11/2021 2:48 pm, Alan wrote:
    On 2021-11-16 5:43 p.m., geoff wrote:
    On 17/11/2021 1:35 pm, Alan wrote:
    On 2021-11-15 4:01 p.m., geoff wrote:
    On 16/11/2021 2:39 am, Matt Larkin wrote:
    On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 13:33:18 UTC, Matt Larkin wrote:
    Don't know if this is a thing or not, but as the stewards have not >>>>>>> given an opinion on the Max / Lewis incident in the race, is it
    still
    open to a post race sanction? A bit like a footballer punching an >>>>>>> opponent but it only being caught on a CCTV camera inside the ground >>>>>>> after the match after a referee, linesman and VAR all miss the
    incident
    so can't make a judgement.

    I know we all *saw* it, but given how all of the journos seem to >>>>>>> be pretty
    unanimous that they think the incident is massively inconsistent >>>>>>> with
    other incidents and rulings this year, is the avenue still open
    to Mercedes
    to push it in front of a panel? Or do all in-race incidents need >>>>>>> to be fully
    done and dusted during the race or within a short time afterwards? >>>>>>  From a quick (probably too quick) review of the sporting regs, it >>>>>> doesn't
    appear as if a decision to investigate or not is covered by the
    various
    exemptions from appeals.

    "38) INCIDENTS DURING THE RACE
    38.1 The Race Director may report any on-track incident or
    suspected breach of these Sporting
    Regulations or the Code (an “Incident”) to the stewards. After >>>>>> review it shall be at the discretion
    of the stewards to decide whether or not to proceed with an
    investigation.
    The stewards may also investigate an Incident noted by themselves." >>>>>>
    So Masi "may" report (and the stewards can investigate off their
    own bat)
    but doesn't have to.  The stewards "may", but don't have to.

    So can they be compelled to?


    Check out this video at 0:22 , 0:41, 1:04, and 1:17.

    Looks to me that VER, very momentarily, steered out into HAM
    causing an approach which would never have made the corner And of
    course HAM to take evasive action when he had right of way.

    But now you agree that at no time did Verstappen "steer OUT" right?

    Yes, already. But the initially trajectory was never going to make
    the edge, oversterer later or not.

    You're wrong. You're not even close to right.

    And the problem was UNDERSTEER.

    Yes, mis-typed.

    Disagree with anything here ?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPKjVrxvgbI

    I don't quite see how he can know where Verstappen is supposed to have
    release his brake pressure? The cars are so stiffly sprung that you
    can't really pick it up from the attitude of the car, so where did he
    find the source for claiming it?

    And then later on he suggests that Verstappen might have opened the
    wheel to correct some oversteer, and while we now know he did not, he's
    arguing simultaneously that releasing brake pressure caused the car to understeer and oversteer.

    And I notice that he says that Verstappen intention was to run wide "to
    the outside of the corner". Not "beyond" the outside: just TO it. Which
    if you think about it is the only choice that makes sense.

    I disagree with his assessment that it would have been legal for
    Verstappen to have pushed Hamilton off the track, because once an
    overtaking car is significantly along side you, you lose the right to
    use the entire width of the racing surface.

    Note that the video was created before he could see Verstappen's in car.

    And note that he basically says that but for the understeer that
    Verstappen's car got (which he agrees with me did happen), Verstappen
    would have made the corner.

    I'm sorry, but the logical (if not legal) move for Verstappen is to keep
    his own car on the track but force Hamilton off it. There is not
    advantage to be gained by going off the track himself.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From texas gate@21:1/5 to Alan on Tue Nov 16 20:18:31 2021
    On Tuesday, November 16, 2021 at 1:27:33 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:

    So I guess the only question I've got remaining is:

    fuck you cocksucker

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From texas gate@21:1/5 to Alan on Tue Nov 16 20:19:53 2021
    On Tuesday, November 16, 2021 at 5:31:26 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:

    Sorry, but I think you're wrong.

    sorry is for pussys
    you fucking pussy

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From News@21:1/5 to geoff on Wed Nov 17 11:31:42 2021
    On 11/16/2021 5:58 PM, geoff wrote:
    On 17/11/2021 10:59 am, News wrote:
    On 11/16/2021 4:01 PM, Mark Jackson wrote:
    On 11/16/2021 3:27 PM, Alan wrote:
    So I guess the only question I've got remaining is:

    Did the Race Director see that video at the time?

    Masi has said that they did not, that it was not available until
    after the event; Mercedes has filed for right-of-review:

    "The rules of right of review are clear, and require that competitors
    bring ‘a significant and relevant new element’ that was ‘unavailable >>> to the parties seeking the review at the time of the decision
    concerned.’

    "Mercedes will first have to prove that a new element has been
    discovered, and this should be straightforward with the onboard
    footage from Verstappen’s car.

    "It emerged on the Sunday night in Brazil, after the FIA decided not
    to investigate the Verstappen/Hamilton incident, that race control
    had not had access to the forward facing onboard camera from
    Verstappen’s car.

    "F1’s current technology limits just one live feed off each car and,
    at the time of the incident, Verstappen’s Red Bull was broadcasting
    its rear facing onboard."

    https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/mercedes-asks-for-right-to-review-over-verstappen-hamilton-brazil-incident/6788474/
    [paywalled]



    Sure. And let's go to the video of the Mercs' flexy flaps, a full-time
    dynamic DRS, on their 'legal' static tested wing.

    Surely you mean HAM's flexi-flaps. And probably TSU's too. Everybody
    elses' flexi-flaps would be OK, though not 'too sure' about the
    Hispanics. Eh ?

    geoff


    Racist, much?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Alan@21:1/5 to News on Wed Nov 17 10:26:44 2021
    On 2021-11-17 8:31 a.m., News wrote:
    On 11/16/2021 5:58 PM, geoff wrote:
    On 17/11/2021 10:59 am, News wrote:
    On 11/16/2021 4:01 PM, Mark Jackson wrote:
    On 11/16/2021 3:27 PM, Alan wrote:
    So I guess the only question I've got remaining is:

    Did the Race Director see that video at the time?

    Masi has said that they did not, that it was not available until
    after the event; Mercedes has filed for right-of-review:

    "The rules of right of review are clear, and require that
    competitors bring ‘a significant and relevant new element’ that was >>>> ‘unavailable to the parties seeking the review at the time of the
    decision concerned.’

    "Mercedes will first have to prove that a new element has been
    discovered, and this should be straightforward with the onboard
    footage from Verstappen’s car.

    "It emerged on the Sunday night in Brazil, after the FIA decided not
    to investigate the Verstappen/Hamilton incident, that race control
    had not had access to the forward facing onboard camera from
    Verstappen’s car.

    "F1’s current technology limits just one live feed off each car and, >>>> at the time of the incident, Verstappen’s Red Bull was broadcasting
    its rear facing onboard."

    https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/mercedes-asks-for-right-to-review-over-verstappen-hamilton-brazil-incident/6788474/
    [paywalled]



    Sure. And let's go to the video of the Mercs' flexy flaps, a
    full-time dynamic DRS, on their 'legal' static tested wing.

    Surely you mean HAM's flexi-flaps. And probably TSU's too. Everybody
    elses' flexi-flaps would be OK, though not 'too sure' about the
    Hispanics. Eh ?

    geoff


    Racist, much?

    I think he's implying you are...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From News@21:1/5 to Alan on Wed Nov 17 13:36:33 2021
    On 11/17/2021 1:26 PM, Alan wrote:
    On 2021-11-17 8:31 a.m., News wrote:
    On 11/16/2021 5:58 PM, geoff wrote:
    On 17/11/2021 10:59 am, News wrote:
    On 11/16/2021 4:01 PM, Mark Jackson wrote:
    On 11/16/2021 3:27 PM, Alan wrote:
    So I guess the only question I've got remaining is:

    Did the Race Director see that video at the time?

    Masi has said that they did not, that it was not available until
    after the event; Mercedes has filed for right-of-review:

    "The rules of right of review are clear, and require that
    competitors bring ‘a significant and relevant new element’ that was >>>>> ‘unavailable to the parties seeking the review at the time of the
    decision concerned.’

    "Mercedes will first have to prove that a new element has been
    discovered, and this should be straightforward with the onboard
    footage from Verstappen’s car.

    "It emerged on the Sunday night in Brazil, after the FIA decided
    not to investigate the Verstappen/Hamilton incident, that race
    control had not had access to the forward facing onboard camera
    from Verstappen’s car.

    "F1’s current technology limits just one live feed off each car
    and, at the time of the incident, Verstappen’s Red Bull was
    broadcasting its rear facing onboard."

    https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/mercedes-asks-for-right-to-review-over-verstappen-hamilton-brazil-incident/6788474/
    [paywalled]



    Sure. And let's go to the video of the Mercs' flexy flaps, a
    full-time dynamic DRS, on their 'legal' static tested wing.

    Surely you mean HAM's flexi-flaps. And probably TSU's too. Everybody
    elses' flexi-flaps would be OK, though not 'too sure' about the
    Hispanics. Eh ?

    geoff


    Racist, much?

    I think he's implying you are...

    Obsessed much?

    Oh, right, that's your MO.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Alan@21:1/5 to News on Wed Nov 17 10:43:01 2021
    On 2021-11-17 10:36 a.m., News wrote:
    On 11/17/2021 1:26 PM, Alan wrote:
    On 2021-11-17 8:31 a.m., News wrote:
    On 11/16/2021 5:58 PM, geoff wrote:
    On 17/11/2021 10:59 am, News wrote:
    On 11/16/2021 4:01 PM, Mark Jackson wrote:
    On 11/16/2021 3:27 PM, Alan wrote:
    So I guess the only question I've got remaining is:

    Did the Race Director see that video at the time?

    Masi has said that they did not, that it was not available until
    after the event; Mercedes has filed for right-of-review:

    "The rules of right of review are clear, and require that
    competitors bring ‘a significant and relevant new element’ that >>>>>> was ‘unavailable to the parties seeking the review at the time of >>>>>> the decision concerned.’

    "Mercedes will first have to prove that a new element has been
    discovered, and this should be straightforward with the onboard
    footage from Verstappen’s car.

    "It emerged on the Sunday night in Brazil, after the FIA decided
    not to investigate the Verstappen/Hamilton incident, that race
    control had not had access to the forward facing onboard camera
    from Verstappen’s car.

    "F1’s current technology limits just one live feed off each car
    and, at the time of the incident, Verstappen’s Red Bull was
    broadcasting its rear facing onboard."

    https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/mercedes-asks-for-right-to-review-over-verstappen-hamilton-brazil-incident/6788474/
    [paywalled]



    Sure. And let's go to the video of the Mercs' flexy flaps, a
    full-time dynamic DRS, on their 'legal' static tested wing.

    Surely you mean HAM's flexi-flaps. And probably TSU's too. Everybody
    elses' flexi-flaps would be OK, though not 'too sure' about the
    Hispanics. Eh ?

    geoff


    Racist, much?

    I think he's implying you are...

    Obsessed much?

    Nope.


    Oh, right, that's your MO.

    Nope.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Alan@21:1/5 to texas gate on Wed Nov 17 14:10:30 2021
    On 2021-11-17 1:58 p.m., texas gate wrote:
    On Wednesday, November 17, 2021 at 11:26:46 AM UTC-7, Alan wrote:

    I think he's implying you are...

    There you go thinking again, fucking moron.


    You should try it some time.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From texas gate@21:1/5 to Alan on Wed Nov 17 13:58:42 2021
    On Wednesday, November 17, 2021 at 11:26:46 AM UTC-7, Alan wrote:

    I think he's implying you are...

    There you go thinking again, fucking moron.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mark@21:1/5 to Alan on Fri Nov 19 10:35:23 2021
    Alan <nope@nope.com> wrote:

    And note that he basically says that but for the understeer that
    Verstappen's car got (which he agrees with me did happen), Verstappen
    would have made the corner.

    I'm sorry, but the logical (if not legal) move for Verstappen is to keep
    his own car on the track but force Hamilton off it. There is not
    advantage to be gained by going off the track himself.

    I agree (more or less) with most of that, but totally disagree on the
    last point.

    It's a bit cynical, but there is one clear advantage to him going off
    the track himself.

    You may disagree, but I believe that - given their relative positions
    and assuming he trusts that Hamilton will avoid contact - you can
    assume:

    1. Going off the track ensures that Hamilton will too.
    (This was pretty much guaranteed with that line even if he keeps
    it just about on the track).
    2. In doing so, he will still be able to retain track position as
    he will be able to get back on-track before Hamilton. Hamilton
    would always have the more circuitous route.
    3. Because he goes off the track, he has a *much* better argument
    as to why he shouldn't be penalised. He can argue that it was
    just one of those things and how it had compromised his own
    racing line.

    I'm not saying that this was his thinking, but it may have been.

    If he had managed to keep his car on the track and Hamilton was forced
    off, he would have a much tougher conversation in the event of an investigation. Wouldn't you agree?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Alan@21:1/5 to Mark on Fri Nov 19 11:49:02 2021
    On 2021-11-19 2:35 a.m., Mark wrote:
    Alan <nope@nope.com> wrote:

    And note that he basically says that but for the understeer that
    Verstappen's car got (which he agrees with me did happen), Verstappen
    would have made the corner.

    I'm sorry, but the logical (if not legal) move for Verstappen is to keep
    his own car on the track but force Hamilton off it. There is not
    advantage to be gained by going off the track himself.

    I agree (more or less) with most of that, but totally disagree on the
    last point.

    It's a bit cynical, but there is one clear advantage to him going off
    the track himself.

    You may disagree, but I believe that - given their relative positions
    and assuming he trusts that Hamilton will avoid contact - you can
    assume:

    1. Going off the track ensures that Hamilton will too.
    (This was pretty much guaranteed with that line even if he keeps
    it just about on the track).

    Going right to the edge will do that.

    2. In doing so, he will still be able to retain track position as
    he will be able to get back on-track before Hamilton. Hamilton
    would always have the more circuitous route.

    Which he would have even if Verstappen stayed on track and Hamilton went
    off.

    3. Because he goes off the track, he has a *much* better argument
    as to why he shouldn't be penalised. He can argue that it was
    just one of those things and how it had compromised his own
    racing line.

    That has some merit, but that's a problem of the rule book.


    I'm not saying that this was his thinking, but it may have been.

    I doubt it. As a racer, he wants to hurt Hamilton's car's speed without
    hurting his own.


    If he had managed to keep his car on the track and Hamilton was forced
    off, he would have a much tougher conversation in the event of an investigation. Wouldn't you agree?

    Probably somewhat, yes. But as I said, that's a problem with how the
    rules are applied, and I don't think it played any role in his thinking
    in the heat of battle.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)