Are they somehow normalised for things like ambient temperature ?
I would guess that a 0.2mm difference could be the difference between a
warm day and a cool day ...
On 11/14/2021 9:22 PM, geoff wrote:
Are they somehow normalised for things like ambient temperature ?
I would guess that a 0.2mm difference could be the difference between
a warm day and a cool day ...
85mm is 85mm whatever the temperature. It's the FIA's responsibility to provide a measurement device that doesn't vary with temperature, but
entirely the teams' responsibility to ensure cars meet the
specifications at all testable times during the event.
On 11/14/2021 9:22 PM, geoff wrote:
Are they somehow normalised for things like ambient temperature ?
I would guess that a 0.2mm difference could be the difference between a warm day and a cool day ...
85mm is 85mm whatever the temperature. It's the FIA's responsibility to provide a measurement
device that doesn't vary with temperature, but entirely the teams' responsibility to ensure cars
meet the specifications at all testable times during the event.
On 11/14/2021 9:22 PM, geoff wrote:
Are they somehow normalised for things like ambient temperature ?
I would guess that a 0.2mm difference could be the difference between
a warm day and a cool day ...
85mm is 85mm whatever the temperature. It's the FIA's responsibility to provide a measurement device that doesn't vary with temperature, but
entirely the teams' responsibility to ensure cars meet the
specifications at all testable times during the event.
On 15/11/2021 4:13 pm, Mark Jackson wrote:
On 11/14/2021 9:22 PM, geoff wrote:
Are they somehow normalised for things like ambient temperature ?
I would guess that a 0.2mm difference could be the difference between
a warm day and a cool day ...
85mm is 85mm whatever the temperature. It's the FIA's responsibility
to provide a measurement device that doesn't vary with temperature,
but entirely the teams' responsibility to ensure cars meet the
specifications at all testable times during the event.
You miss the point of my question.
A given piece of a material, or a distance between things that depending
on some material, may very well be 85mm at 20°. And maybe .... say .... 81.8mm at 15°, and 85.2mm at 25°.
That 85.0 (to however-many decimal places they specify) needs also to
have some bounds specified wrt real-world variables.
Maybe they do, which is why I asked.
geoff
Are they somehow normalised for things like ambient temperature ?
I would guess that a 0.2mm difference could be the difference between a
warm day and a cool day ...
On 2021-11-14 7:13 p.m., Mark Jackson wrote:
On 11/14/2021 9:22 PM, geoff wrote:
Are they somehow normalised for things like ambient temperature ?
I would guess that a 0.2mm difference could be the difference between
a warm day and a cool day ...
85mm is 85mm whatever the temperature. It's the FIA's responsibility
to provide a measurement device that doesn't vary with temperature,
but entirely the teams' responsibility to ensure cars meet the
specifications at all testable times during the event.
Just as it is impossible to produce a wing that doesn't flex, it is impossible to make an 85mm (nominal) physical gauge what doesn't vary
with temperature. The best one could hope for is that you design one
with the same thermal expansion coefficient as the carbon composites
from which they make the wings.
On 11/15/2021 2:03 AM, Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-14 7:13 p.m., Mark Jackson wrote:
On 11/14/2021 9:22 PM, geoff wrote:
Are they somehow normalised for things like ambient temperature ?
I would guess that a 0.2mm difference could be the difference
between a warm day and a cool day ...
85mm is 85mm whatever the temperature. It's the FIA's responsibility
to provide a measurement device that doesn't vary with temperature,
but entirely the teams' responsibility to ensure cars meet the
specifications at all testable times during the event.
Just as it is impossible to produce a wing that doesn't flex, it is
impossible to make an 85mm (nominal) physical gauge what doesn't vary
with temperature. The best one could hope for is that you design one
with the same thermal expansion coefficient as the carbon composites
from which they make the wings.
Thereby making the definition of the millimetre temperature-dependent.
That's about the *worst* one could hope for.
If the temperature behavior of the gauge is significant then the FIA
would arrange to keep the gauge at a suitably fixed temperature; it
isn't, and they don't.
It's still the teams' responsibility to assure the cars are legal. Since we're talking about a one-sided spec competent engineering requires an arrangement with a suitable margin of safety - and sufficient robustness
so it doesn't break under use conditions. Toto's "excuses" are just hot air.
On 2021-11-15 9:03 a.m., Mark Jackson wrote:
On 11/15/2021 2:03 AM, Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-14 7:13 p.m., Mark Jackson wrote:
On 11/14/2021 9:22 PM, geoff wrote:
Are they somehow normalised for things like ambient temperature ?
I would guess that a 0.2mm difference could be the difference
between a warm day and a cool day ...
85mm is 85mm whatever the temperature. It's the FIA's
responsibility to provide a measurement device that doesn't vary
with temperature, but entirely the teams' responsibility to ensure
cars meet the specifications at all testable times during the event.
Just as it is impossible to produce a wing that doesn't flex, it is
impossible to make an 85mm (nominal) physical gauge what doesn't vary
with temperature. The best one could hope for is that you design one
with the same thermal expansion coefficient as the carbon composites
from which they make the wings.
Thereby making the definition of the millimetre temperature-dependent.
That's about the *worst* one could hope for.
No. The definition of a millimetre is NOT temperature dependent.
My understanding is that the FIA uses a device that is simply a disc
shape that is 85mm in diameter. Obviously that measurement is taken at
some specific temperature. If it can pass through the gap with less than
a certain force (as I understand it) then the wing fails the test.
If the temperature behavior of the gauge is significant then the FIA
would arrange to keep the gauge at a suitably fixed temperature; it
isn't, and they don't.
I agree that it's quite likely that the temperature behaviour is small,
but whether or not it is significant under any and all circumstances, I
can tell you.
What I can tell you is that it wouldn't be that difficult to arrange
that the gauge and the wing have very similar behaviour with temperature change rendering the change moot.
Yes. We have no disagreement here.
You need to read up on the thermal expansion of carbon composites.
What I can tell you is
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