Given how certain he seemed to be in the cockpit that he could haveYes, it does seem that if the tires were thisclose to failing altogether, they should've just told HAM.
made it work, does anyone think they should have just left him to it?
He's got big enough shoulders that he'd have taken the rap if it had gone pearshaped, surely?
Or maybe instead they should have given him better in car info to help
him come to the same decision:-
a) "Lewis, our data suggests tyre wear is now critical and won't last more than 4 more laps"
b) "Lewis, if we pit now we can lock in 5th at worst and maybe 4th"
c) "Lewis, you're under threat from Gasly in 5th if you don't pit now"
Hamilton's ire seems to have been that he didn't know what place the
pitstop would result in him coming out into (I think he assumed at
worst it was into 4th) and that no-one had given him a definitive "these tyres are shot, no matter how OK they feel to you" steer.
Given how certain he seemed to be in the cockpit that he could have
made it work, does anyone think they should have just left him to it?
He's got big enough shoulders that he'd have taken the rap if it had gone pearshaped, surely?
Or maybe instead they should have given him better in car info to help
him come to the same decision:-
a) "Lewis, our data suggests tyre wear is now critical and won't last more than 4 more laps"
b) "Lewis, if we pit now we can lock in 5th at worst and maybe 4th"
c) "Lewis, you're under threat from Gasly in 5th if you don't pit now"
Hamilton's ire seems to have been that he didn't know what place the
pitstop would result in him coming out into (I think he assumed at
worst it was into 4th) and that no-one had given him a definitive "these tyres are shot, no matter how OK they feel to you" steer.
On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 8:51:31 AM UTC-4, matthew...@gmail.com
wrote:
Given how certain he seemed to be in the cockpit that he could haveYes, it does seem that if the tires were thisclose to failing
made it work, does anyone think they should have just left him to it?
He's got big enough shoulders that he'd have taken the rap if it had
gone pearshaped, surely?
Or maybe instead they should have given him better in car info to help
him come to the same decision:-
a) "Lewis, our data suggests tyre wear is now critical and won't last
more than 4 more laps"
b) "Lewis, if we pit now we can lock in 5th at worst and maybe 4th"
c) "Lewis, you're under threat from Gasly in 5th if you don't pit now"
Hamilton's ire seems to have been that he didn't know what place the
pitstop would result in him coming out into (I think he assumed at
worst it was into 4th) and that no-one had given him a definitive
"these tyres are shot, no matter how OK they feel to you" steer.
altogether, they should've just told HAM.
Otherwise, let him have his head and finish the race on tires he seemed
to know how to manage.
Dan
On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 8:51:31 AM UTC-4, matthew...@gmail.com wrote:
Given how certain he seemed to be in the cockpit that he could haveYes, it does seem that if the tires were thisclose to failing altogether, they should've just told HAM.
made it work, does anyone think they should have just left him to it?
He's got big enough shoulders that he'd have taken the rap if it had gone
pearshaped, surely?
Or maybe instead they should have given him better in car info to help
him come to the same decision:-
a) "Lewis, our data suggests tyre wear is now critical and won't last more >> than 4 more laps"
b) "Lewis, if we pit now we can lock in 5th at worst and maybe 4th"
c) "Lewis, you're under threat from Gasly in 5th if you don't pit now"
Hamilton's ire seems to have been that he didn't know what place the
pitstop would result in him coming out into (I think he assumed at
worst it was into 4th) and that no-one had given him a definitive "these
tyres are shot, no matter how OK they feel to you" steer.
Otherwise, let him have his head and finish the race on tires he seemed to know how to manage.
On 12/10/2021 4:24 am, Dan the Man wrote:
Yes, it does seem that if the tires were this close to failing
altogether, they should've just told HAM. Otherwise, let him have
his head and finish the race on tires he seemed to know how to
manage.
Agreed. Zero stops worked fine for Ocon and his times didn't drop
radically in the last few laps.
The only driver to complete the race without pitting was Esteban
Ocon, who finished 10th for Alpine. But he conceded his tyres were
“quite damaged” by the end, and believed he would have sustained a puncture had the race lasted one lap longer.
Mercedes trackside engineering director Andrew Shovlin explained
that the drop-off in Ocon’s lap times towards the end of the race
proved how risky it would have been to keep Hamilton out.
“If you look at Esteban, he got overtaken by Lance [Stroll] about
five or six laps from the end, and he finished 17 seconds behind
him,” Shovlin said.
“That’s how quickly you fall off. That’s what is in our mind, it’s not just if we can keep going at this pace.
Ocon’s times nosedived towards the end of the race as he lost more
than three seconds per lap to Stroll ahead. Antonio Giovinazzi
finished narrowly behind Ocon in 11th, and felt he needed one more
lap to snatch a point from the Alpine driver.
On 10/11/2021 9:54 PM, ~misfit~ wrote:
On 12/10/2021 4:24 am, Dan the Man wrote:
Yes, it does seem that if the tires were this close to failing altogether, they should've just
told HAM. Otherwise, let him have his head and finish the race on tires he seemed to know how to
manage.
Agreed. Zero stops worked fine for Ocon and his times didn't drop radically in the last few laps.
Really?
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/mercedes-ocons-fall-proved-risk-of-keeping-hamilton-out-to-the-end/6684947/
Paywalled; excerpts:
The only driver to complete the race without pitting was Esteban Ocon, who finished 10th for
Alpine. But he conceded his tyres were “quite damaged” by the end, and believed he would have
sustained a puncture had the race lasted one lap longer.
Mercedes trackside engineering director Andrew Shovlin explained
that the drop-off in Ocon’s lap times towards the end of the race
proved how risky it would have been to keep Hamilton out.
“If you look at Esteban, he got overtaken by Lance [Stroll] about five or six laps from the end,
and he finished 17 seconds behind him,” Shovlin said.
“That’s how quickly you fall off. That’s what is in our mind, it’s not just if we can keep going
at this pace.
Ocon’s times nosedived towards the end of the race as he lost more
than three seconds per lap to Stroll ahead. Antonio Giovinazzi
finished narrowly behind Ocon in 11th, and felt he needed one more
lap to snatch a point from the Alpine driver.
On 12/10/2021 3:12 pm, Mark Jackson wrote:Over the last 7 laps, Perez took 10m53.3s and he had about a 13s gap to Hamilton when Hamilton
On 10/11/2021 9:54 PM, ~misfit~ wrote:
On 12/10/2021 4:24 am, Dan the Man wrote:
Yes, it does seem that if the tires were this close to failing altogether, they should've just
told HAM. Otherwise, let him have his head and finish the race on tires he seemed to know how to
manage.
Agreed. Zero stops worked fine for Ocon and his times didn't drop radically in the last few laps.
Really?
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/mercedes-ocons-fall-proved-risk-of-keeping-hamilton-out-to-the-end/6684947/Ok, I don't have access to timing screens, after Hamilton pitted I kept one eye on the left of the
screen to see if Ocon lost places and he didn't. I guess he'd already lost the place to Stroll by
the time I did that.
Also said the way the tyres behave on a midfield car in the hands of a midfield driver and the way
they behave on the Merc in Hamilton's hands are likely to be very different. Hamilton had been
going off-line to cool his tyres for quite a few laps before the radio coms about tyres even started.
Then there's the very fact that it's Merc saying the above after, when Lewis asked them if the
tyres could make it to the end a few laps before the pitstop his engineer said 'yes'. I hear that
the main damage to Ocon's tyre/s was due to him flat-spotting them down to the carcass.
It's one of those things that we'll never know the answer to, especially when those with vested
interests are filling the media with their propaganda after the fact.
Paywalled; excerpts:
The only driver to complete the race without pitting was Esteban Ocon, who finished 10th for
Alpine. But he conceded his tyres were “quite damaged” by the end, and believed he would have
sustained a puncture had the race lasted one lap longer.
Mercedes trackside engineering director Andrew Shovlin explained
that the drop-off in Ocon’s lap times towards the end of the race
proved how risky it would have been to keep Hamilton out.
“If you look at Esteban, he got overtaken by Lance [Stroll] about five or six laps from the end,
and he finished 17 seconds behind him,” Shovlin said.
“That’s how quickly you fall off. That’s what is in our mind, it’s not just if we can keep going
at this pace.
Cheers,Ocon’s times nosedived towards the end of the race as he lost more
than three seconds per lap to Stroll ahead. Antonio Giovinazzi
finished narrowly behind Ocon in 11th, and felt he needed one more
lap to snatch a point from the Alpine driver.
--
Shaun.
"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville
This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.
On 12/10/2021 3:12 pm, Mark Jackson wrote:
On 10/11/2021 9:54 PM, ~misfit~ wrote:
On 12/10/2021 4:24 am, Dan the Man wrote:
Yes, it does seem that if the tires were this close to failing
altogether, they should've just told HAM. Otherwise, let him have
his head and finish the race on tires he seemed to know how to manage.
Agreed. Zero stops worked fine for Ocon and his times didn't drop
radically in the last few laps.
Really?
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/mercedes-ocons-fall-proved-risk-of-keeping-hamilton-out-to-the-end/6684947/
Ok, I don't have access to timing screens, after Hamilton pitted I kept
one eye on the left of the screen to see if Ocon lost places and he
didn't. I guess he'd already lost the place to Stroll by the time I did
that.
Also said the way the tyres behave on a midfield car in the hands of a midfield driver and the way they behave on the Merc in Hamilton's hands
are likely to be very different. Hamilton had been going off-line to
cool his tyres for quite a few laps before the radio coms about tyres
even started.
Then there's the very fact that it's Merc saying the above after, when
Lewis asked them if the tyres could make it to the end a few laps before
the pitstop his engineer said 'yes'. I hear that the main damage to
Ocon's tyre/s was due to him flat-spotting them down to the carcass.
It's one of those things that we'll never know the answer to, especially
when those with vested interests are filling the media with their
propaganda after the fact.
On 12/10/2021 3:12 pm, Mark Jackson wrote:
On 10/11/2021 9:54 PM, ~misfit~ wrote:
On 12/10/2021 4:24 am, Dan the Man wrote:
Yes, it does seem that if the tires were this close to failing altogether, they should've just
told HAM. Otherwise, let him have his head and finish the race on tires he seemed to know how
to manage.
Agreed. Zero stops worked fine for Ocon and his times didn't drop radically in the last few laps.
Really?
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/mercedes-ocons-fall-proved-risk-of-keeping-hamilton-out-to-the-end/6684947/
Ok, I don't have access to timing screens, after Hamilton pitted I kept one eye on the left of the
screen to see if Ocon lost places and he didn't. I guess he'd already lost the place to Stroll by
the time I did that.
Also said the way the tyres behave on a midfield car in the hands of a midfield driver and the way
they behave on the Merc in Hamilton's hands are likely to be very different. Hamilton had been
going off-line to cool his tyres for quite a few laps before the radio coms about tyres even started.
Then there's the very fact that it's Merc saying the above after, when Lewis asked them if the
tyres could make it to the end a few laps before the pitstop his engineer said 'yes'. I hear that
the main damage to Ocon's tyre/s was due to him flat-spotting them down to the carcass.
It's one of those things that we'll never know the answer to, especially when those with vested
interests are filling the media with their propaganda after the fact.
and from what I could see
Given how certain he seemed to be in the cockpit that he could have
made it work, does anyone think they should have just left him to it?
Given how certain he seemed to be in the cockpit that he could have
made it work, does anyone think they should have just left him to it?
On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 5:51:31 AM UTC-7, matthew...@gmail.com wrote:
Given how certain he seemed to be in the cockpit that he could have
made it work, does anyone think they should have just left him to it?
[Second attempt at posting]
I have never forgiven Frank Williams for having Jacques Villeneuve
ordered to concede his lead to Damon Hill in that Australian GP, on the grounds that telemetry detected that JV's oil level was "low'.
We know about Frank's obsession with punishing his surrogate 'sons', but
--- Jacques would have won that race and thus enjoyed the rarity
[unique?] of qualifying on pole AND winning his first ever F1 race.
That common vernacular phrase "Who's driving this f***ing car anyway?" springs to mind.
Giancarlo Baghetti won his first GP (the French in 1961) but he wasn’t on pole.
That common vernacular phrase "Who's driving this f***ing car anyway?" springs to mind.
--
Sir Tim
Giancarlo Baghetti won his first GP (the French in 1961) but he wasn’t on >> pole.
Thank you, Sir Tim, as always --- so near yet so far.
Will any driver in the foreseeable future get pole AND win the first Grand Prix they enter?
bra <brafield@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 5:51:31 AM UTC-7, matthew...@gmail.com wrote: >>> Given how certain he seemed to be in the cockpit that he could have
made it work, does anyone think they should have just left him to it?
[Second attempt at posting]
I have never forgiven Frank Williams for having Jacques Villeneuve
ordered to concede his lead to Damon Hill in that Australian GP, on the
grounds that telemetry detected that JV's oil level was "low'.
We know about Frank's obsession with punishing his surrogate 'sons', but
--- Jacques would have won that race and thus enjoyed the rarity
[unique?] of qualifying on pole AND winning his first ever F1 race.
Giancarlo Baghetti won his first GP (the French in 1961) but he wasn’t on pole.
On 18/10/2021 08:42, Sir Tim wrote:
Giancarlo Baghetti won his first GP (the French in 1961) but he wasn’t on >> pole.
Only four drivers qualified in pole position in their first GP:
Nino Farina GBR 1950 (1st Championship GP)
Mario Andretti USA 1968
Carlos Reutemann ARG 1972
Jacques Villeneuve AUS 1996
Two Indy 500 drivers also qualified in PP while it was part of the WDC.
Walt Faulkner 1950
Duke Nalon 1951
On 10/19/2021 6:31 AM, Brian Lawrence wrote:
On 18/10/2021 08:42, Sir Tim wrote:
Giancarlo Baghetti won his first GP (the French in 1961) but he
wasn’t on
pole.
Only four drivers qualified in pole position in their first GP:
First WDC event.
Nino Farina GBR 1950 (1st Championship GP)
Farina also won.
Mario Andretti USA 1968
Carlos Reutemann ARG 1972
Jacques Villeneuve AUS 1996
Two Indy 500 drivers also qualified in PP while it was part of the WDC.
Walt Faulkner 1950
Won by Johnnie Parsons, in *his* first WDC event.
Duke Nalon 1951
Baghetti was the only "legitimate" first-timer, of course.
On 10/19/2021 6:31 AM, Brian Lawrence wrote:
On 18/10/2021 08:42, Sir Tim wrote:
Giancarlo Baghetti won his first GP (the French in 1961) but he wasn’t on >>> pole.
Only four drivers qualified in pole position in their first GP:
First WDC event.
Nino Farina GBR 1950 (1st Championship GP)
Farina also won.
Mark Jackson <mjackson@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
On 10/19/2021 6:31 AM, Brian Lawrence wrote:
On 18/10/2021 08:42, Sir Tim wrote:
Giancarlo Baghetti won his first GP (the French in 1961) but he
wasn’t on pole.
Only four drivers qualified in pole position in their first GP:
First WDC event.
Nino Farina GBR 1950 (1st Championship GP)
Farina also won.
Good point. So, technically, he both got pole and won his first
*Formula One* Grand Prix. But of course he had driven quite a few GPs
before WW2.
Baghetti was the only "legitimate" first-timer, of course.
--. . .although a case could be made for Faulkner as 1950 was his first
time at Indianapolis, and he had appeared at one Champ Car event (in
which he failed to qualify) before then.
Given how certain he seemed to be in the cockpit that he could have
made it work, does anyone think they should have just left him to it?
He's got big enough shoulders that he'd have taken the rap if it had gone pearshaped, surely?
Or maybe instead they should have given him better in car info to help
him come to the same decision:-
a) "Lewis, our data suggests tyre wear is now critical and won't last more than 4 more laps"
b) "Lewis, if we pit now we can lock in 5th at worst and maybe 4th"
c) "Lewis, you're under threat from Gasly in 5th if you don't pit now"
Hamilton's ire seems to have been that he didn't know what place the
pitstop would result in him coming out into (I think he assumed at
worst it was into 4th) and that no-one had given him a definitive "these tyres are shot, no matter how OK they feel to you" steer.
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