Every delay plugin I've tried gets it wrong. They
apply the feedback % to the signal only after it's
gone through the delay once. Like this:

https://i.stack.imgur.com/HksMM.png

What sounds more natural, would be to apply
the feedback % going into the delay the first
time. In the diagram, the feedback gain
would go just before the Delay Line box and
the loopback would just be a plain 'wire'.

They way things are, you get this:

||
|||
||||
|||||
||||||

Where what sounds more natural is this:

|
||
|||
||||
|||||

As a workaround I can set the output level
of the delay lower,0 so that the first iteration
is lower and sounds right, but then every time
I adjust the feedback, I have to adjust the effect
level.

Anyone know of a plugin that's routed the other way?
Why would you want to hear the first echo at
full volume? It sounds terrible, particularly
at low feedback levels.

I've touched on this subject here before, but
maybe there are new ears by now.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Tobiah reveals his utter Stupidity wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------------

Every delay plugin I've tried gets it wrong.

** Doubt that.

They
apply the feedback % to the signal only after it's
gone through the delay once. Like this:

https://i.stack.imgur.com/HksMM.png

** There is no other way to get repeats.

What sounds more natural, would be to apply
the feedback % going into the delay the first
time.

** ROTFLAMO !!!!!

In the diagram, the feedback gain

would go just before the Delay Line box and
the loopback would just be a plain 'wire'.

** Too fuckin' funny, stop it , my tummy hurts.

FYI to all:

Direct feedback is either positive or negative.

The former results in instability while the latter simply cancels some or all the signal.


...... Phil

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 16/12/2021 2:06 pm, Tobiah wrote:

Every delay plugin I've tried gets it wrong.  They
apply the feedback % to the signal only after it's
gone through the delay once.  Like this:

https://i.stack.imgur.com/HksMM.png

What sounds more natural, would be to apply
the feedback % going into the delay the first
time.  In the diagram, the feedback gain
would go just before the Delay Line box and
the loopback would just be a plain 'wire'.

They way things are, you get this:

||
|||
||||
|||||
||||||

Where what sounds more natural is this:

|
||
|||
||||
|||||

As a workaround I can set the output level
of the delay lower,0 so that the first iteration
is lower and sounds right, but then every time
I adjust the feedback, I have to adjust the effect
level.

Anyone know of a plugin that's routed the other way?
Why would you want to hear the first echo at
full volume?  It sounds terrible, particularly
at low feedback levels.

I've touched on this subject here before, but
maybe there are new ears by now.

Delay sounds natural ?

I get what you mean - and yes, I prefer the first repeat being
diminished. As in reverb, which a delay originally was sort of a
derivative of.

Vegas (now Magix, was Sonic Foundry) has a native Multi-Tap delay that
you can configure up to 8 delay 'taps', each independently with a level
from -100% to 100% of the original amplitude. Plus a bunch more parameters.

geoff

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 16/12/2021 2:37 pm, geoff wrote:

On 16/12/2021 2:06 pm, Tobiah wrote:

Every delay plugin I've tried gets it wrong.  They
apply the feedback % to the signal only after it's
gone through the delay once.  Like this:

https://i.stack.imgur.com/HksMM.png

What sounds more natural, would be to apply
the feedback % going into the delay the first
time.  In the diagram, the feedback gain
would go just before the Delay Line box and
the loopback would just be a plain 'wire'.

They way things are, you get this:

||
|||
||||
|||||
||||||

Where what sounds more natural is this:

|
||
|||
||||
|||||

As a workaround I can set the output level
of the delay lower,0 so that the first iteration
is lower and sounds right, but then every time
I adjust the feedback, I have to adjust the effect
level.

Anyone know of a plugin that's routed the other way?
Why would you want to hear the first echo at
full volume?  It sounds terrible, particularly
at low feedback levels.

I've touched on this subject here before, but
maybe there are new ears by now.

Delay sounds natural ?

I get what you mean - and yes, I prefer the first repeat being
diminished. As in reverb, which a delay originally was sort of a
derivative of.

Vegas (now Magix, was Sonic Foundry) has a native Multi-Tap delay that
you can configure up to 8 delay 'taps', each independently with a level
from -100% to 100% of the original amplitude. Plus a bunch more parameters.

geoff

A a quick glance around sees a bunch of other multi-tap delays similarly configurable.

geoff

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 12/15/21 5:36 PM, palli...@gmail.com wrote:

Tobiah reveals his utter Stupidity wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------------

Every delay plugin I've tried gets it wrong.

** Doubt that.

They
apply the feedback % to the signal only after it's
gone through the delay once. Like this:

https://i.stack.imgur.com/HksMM.png

** There is no other way to get repeats.

What sounds more natural, would be to apply
the feedback % going into the delay the first
time.

** ROTFLAMO !!!!!

In the diagram, the feedback gain

would go just before the Delay Line box and
the loopback would just be a plain 'wire'.

** Too fuckin' funny, stop it , my tummy hurts.

FYI to all:

Direct feedback is either positive or negative.

The former results in instability while the latter simply cancels some or all the signal.

While you carried on being a dick, you gave me nothing informative.
If the Feedback % box in the diagram were moved to just before the
delay box, I think I'd get the result I want. Do you disagree?

Why would someone want the first delay result to be the same volume
as the dry signal, then have diminution in successive repeats?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Tobiah reveals his utter Stupidity wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------------

Every delay plugin I've tried gets it wrong.

** Doubt that.

They
apply the feedback % to the signal only after it's
gone through the delay once. Like this:

https://i.stack.imgur.com/HksMM.png

** There is no other way to get repeats.

What sounds more natural, would be to apply
the feedback % going into the delay the first
time.

** ROTFLAMO !!!!!

In the diagram, the feedback gain

would go just before the Delay Line box and
the loopback would just be a plain 'wire'.

** Too fuckin' funny, stop it , my tummy hurts.

FYI to all:

Direct feedback is either positive or negative.

The former results in instability while the latter simply cancels some or all the signal.

While you carried on being a dick,

** Fuck of moron.

you gave me nothing informative.

** Course I did - but you're too fucking stupid to see it.

If the Feedback % box in the diagram were moved to just before the
delay box, I think I'd get the result I want. Do you disagree?

** What result is that ?

Why would someone want the first delay result to be the same volume
as the dry signal, then have diminution in successive repeats?

** Only one possibility.
The "delay mix" sets the ratio as you please.

You are soooooooo fucking clueless.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

delay box, I think I'd get the result I want. Do you disagree?

** What result is that ?

What I'm looking for is the dry signal being passed straight through,
with the feedback gain (<100%) being applied prior to the first
pass through the delay.

That way I'd get say,

100%, 50%, 25%, 12.5%...

Rather than what every delay does, which is
100%, 100%, 50%, 25%...

Why would someone want the first delay result to be the same volume
as the dry signal, then have diminution in successive repeats?

** Only one possibility.
The "delay mix" sets the ratio as you please.

Yeah I mentioned that you could use the wet/dry mix
to achieve the same result but it takes tweaking two
parameters each time the feedback level is changed.

I can't think of a use case for the default behavior.

(I know, that's cuz I'm a fucking moron.. save your breath)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Tobiah wrote:
===========

** What result is that ?

What I'm looking for is the dry signal being passed straight through,
with the feedback gain (<100%) being applied prior to the first
pass through the delay.

** WTF do you think "feedback" is???

Feedback of what signal ?
Cannot be the same as the input signal.

Rather than what every delay does, which is
100%, 100%, 50%, 25%...

** Nonsense.

The first echo is at the level you chose on the settings.
You have convinced yourself of a fallacy.

True story:

Once a had a studio owner come to me with his Yamaha digital reverb.
Like most such units, it had L and R inputs with " simulated stereo " outputs. The internal delay path was mono.
L and R inputs were summed to mono soon as they entered the box.
Simulated stereo was derived from mono by a pair of phasing networks.

However he did not think so, he insisted when he panned a stereo signal it came out also panned.
Or at least it did in the past but had now stopped.
Of course, he could not demonstrate this.

His complaint was the unit did not do something it never could have.



...... Phil

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 12/16/2021 2:35 PM, palli...@gmail.com wrote:

Tobiah wrote:
===========

** What result is that ?

What I'm looking for is the dry signal being passed straight through,
with the feedback gain (<100%) being applied prior to the first
pass through the delay.

** WTF do you think "feedback" is???

Feedback of what signal ?
Cannot be the same as the input signal.

Feedback as illustrated in the diagram I originally posted.
It's feeding a (usually diminished) signal from the delay
mechanism's output back to its input. I'm suggesting that
a much better effect can be had if the original signal encounters
the diminution first before hitting the delay. Then the output
of the delay is fed back into the same negative gain so that the
diminution is continued. The original signal would still pass through unmodified.

Here is an example. I recorded a vocal sound then a vocal 'click'
and put them through Readelay that comes with Reaper. The first
set I ran through after adjusting the wet/dry mix so that the wet
sound was softer by the right amount so that it might match the
negative feedback gain I set for the effect. As it is, I can hear
that I still put too much wet in it so that the first echo is a bit
too loud. This is the fiddly bit that I'm complaining about.

The second set of the same sounds was fed through the effect with
the Wet and Dry both at 100%. You can hear that the first echo
is exactly the same level as the original signal. Only then does
it start to reduce. This is in accordance with the diagram I posted,
and is the behavior of all of the dozen or so plugins I've tested.

https://tinyurl.com/msdww53e

Rather than what every delay does, which is
100%, 100%, 50%, 25%...

** Nonsense.

The first echo is at the level you chose on the settings.
You have convinced yourself of a fallacy.

Proof is in the pudding.

True story:

Once a had a studio owner come to me with his Yamaha digital reverb.
Like most such units, it had L and R inputs with " simulated stereo " outputs.
The internal delay path was mono.
L and R inputs were summed to mono soon as they entered the box.
Simulated stereo was derived from mono by a pair of phasing networks.

However he did not think so, he insisted when he panned a stereo signal it came out also panned.
Or at least it did in the past but had now stopped.
Of course, he could not demonstrate this.

His complaint was the unit did not do something it never could have.

I'm not above making stupid assumptions from time to time but this is
not one of those cases.


Tobiah

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Vegas (now Magix, was Sonic Foundry) has a native Multi-Tap delay
that you can configure up to 8 delay 'taps', each independently with
a level from -100% to 100% of the original amplitude. Plus a bunch
more parameters.

Whether it's multitap or not, you will find that the first
iteration of echo comes out a full volume and only after that
starts to lessen (or as you mention possible increase) in level.


Tobiah

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 17/12/2021 1:09 pm, Tobiah wrote:

Vegas (now Magix, was Sonic Foundry) has a native Multi-Tap delay
that you can configure up to 8 delay 'taps', each independently with
a level from -100% to 100% of the original amplitude. Plus a bunch
more parameters.

Whether it's multitap or not, you will find that the first
iteration of echo comes out a full volume and only after that
starts to lessen (or as you mention possible increase) in level.

Tobiah

No. The first 'echo' can be set to any % of the 'source'. Subsequent
ones can also be lesser (or greater) than each previous echo.

geoff

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 12/17/2021 5:20 PM, geoff wrote:

On 17/12/2021 1:09 pm, Tobiah wrote:

Vegas (now Magix, was Sonic Foundry) has a native Multi-Tap delay
that you can configure up to 8 delay 'taps', each independently with
a level from -100% to 100% of the original amplitude. Plus a bunch
more parameters.

Whether it's multitap or not, you will find that the first
iteration of echo comes out a full volume and only after that
starts to lessen (or as you mention possible increase) in level.


Tobiah

No. The first 'echo' can be set to any % of the 'source'. Subsequent ones can also be lesser (or greater) than each previous echo.

geoff

Whatever the nomenclature, you'll find that it takes two adjustments to make
it sound right each time the desired feedback percent is changed.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Tobiah bullshitted wrote:
===============
geoff wrote:

No. The first 'echo' can be set to any % of the 'source'.
Subsequent ones can also be lesser (or greater) than each previous echo.

geoff

Whatever the nomenclature, you'll find that it takes two adjustments to make it sound right each time the desired feedback percent is changed.

** Still hell bent on going down swingin' - right ?

YOU are exactly like the guy I mention with the Yamaha digital delay.



...... Phil

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 12/18/2021 5:39 PM, palli...@gmail.com wrote:

Tobiah bullshitted wrote:
===============
geoff wrote:

No. The first 'echo' can be set to any % of the 'source'.
Subsequent ones can also be lesser (or greater) than each previous echo. >>>
geoff

Whatever the nomenclature, you'll find that it takes two adjustments to make >> it sound right each time the desired feedback percent is changed.

>

** Still hell bent on going down swingin' - right ?

YOU are exactly like the guy I mention with the Yamaha digital delay.

I've done many experiments and provided proof here.

I admit that I can't know the behavior of Geoff's plugin. I was rather
hoping to prod him into doing a test and proving me wrong.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Tobiah bullshitted:
===============

geoff wrote:

No. The first 'echo' can be set to any % of the 'source'.
Subsequent ones can also be lesser (or greater) than each previous echo. >>>
geoff

Whatever the nomenclature, you'll find that it takes two adjustments to make
it sound right each time the desired feedback percent is changed.

** Still hell bent on going down swingin' - right ?

YOU are exactly like the guy I mention with the Yamaha digital delay.

I've done many experiments and provided proof here.

** Like HELL you have, wot bullshit.


..... Phil

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 20/12/2021 10:03 am, Tobiah wrote:

On 12/18/2021 5:39 PM, palli...@gmail.com wrote:

  Tobiah bullshitted wrote:
===============
  geoff wrote:

No. The first 'echo' can be set to any % of the 'source'.
Subsequent ones can also be lesser (or greater) than each previous
echo.

geoff

Whatever the nomenclature, you'll find that it takes two adjustments
to make
it sound right each time the desired feedback percent is changed.

  >

**  Still hell bent on going down swingin'  -   right ?

  YOU are exactly like the guy I mention with the Yamaha digital delay.

I've done many experiments and provided proof here.

I admit that I can't know the behavior of Geoff's plugin.  I was rather hoping to prod him into doing a test and proving me wrong.

I did. Took all of a few minutes. Several basic stock delay plugins.

I took a snare hit and manipulated the amplitude of the first delay, and
of subsequent iterations, both up and down wrt the prior.

Pretty much all of the stock presets operated similarly - I couldn't
find any with the first delay 'echo' being the same amplitude as the
'trigger' impulse - but I didn't check them all though.

Can't imagine other delays aren't similarly configurable.

geoff

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I took a snare hit and manipulated the amplitude of the first delay,
and of subsequent iterations, both up and down wrt the prior.

They way you describe this still sounds like you are making two
adjustments.

Pretty much all of the stock presets operated similarly - I couldn't
find any with the first delay 'echo' being the same amplitude as the 'trigger' impulse - but I didn't check them all though.

Can't imagine other delays aren't similarly configurable.

Any of the delays you tried free or low cost?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 21/12/2021 5:05 am, Tobiah wrote:

I took a snare hit and manipulated the amplitude of the first delay,
and of subsequent iterations, both up and down wrt the prior.

They way you describe this still sounds like you are making two
adjustments.

Pretty much all of the stock presets operated similarly - I couldn't
find any with the first delay 'echo' being the same amplitude as the
'trigger' impulse - but I didn't check them all though.

Can't imagine other delays aren't similarly configurable.

Any of the delays you tried free or low cost?

Included standard set within the app.

The first couple popping up on a simple google search weren't free, but
I struggle to find one that isn't similarly configurable.

If 'free' is you criteria, then download a dozen or so and try them out.
As I can achieve it easily with stock plugins from over a decade ago, I
really can't be bothered to look harder on your behalf.

Else you could try offerings from:
Steinberg
Waves
KVR
etc
etc
etc
They may even have ones that work in demo mode.

geoff

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Any of the delays you tried free or low cost?

If 'free' is you criteria, then download a dozen or so and try them
out. As I can achieve it easily with stock plugins from over a decade
ago, I really can't be bothered to look harder on your behalf.

I wasn't asking you to look. I just wanted to know if any
of the plugins you tried were available would be available to me.
I've been using Reaper.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 22/12/2021 8:04 am, Tobiah wrote:

Any of the delays you tried free or low cost?

If 'free' is you criteria, then download a dozen or so and try them
out. As I can achieve it easily with stock plugins from over a decade
ago, I really can't be bothered to look harder on your behalf.

I wasn't asking you to look.  I just wanted to know if any
of the plugins you tried were available would be available to me.
I've been using Reaper.

OK, just did it in Reaper with the stock DX plugin 'DX:Multi-Tap Delay'.

I had a snare hit, with the first echo at -50%, and subsequent ones
going up and down in level wrt the original dry hit.

FWIW Reaper was originally based on, or inspired by, SonicFoundry-cum-Sony-cum-Magix Vegas Pro, and has ended up like a
combination of this plus SF/Sony/Magix Acid Pro, plus additional
features that have developed over the more-than-ten years.

Check it out here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/g7c0jejmacnxw39/AAAS23G9Y6WDWZl0mg9GDhI_a?dl=0

geoff

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 22/12/2021 12:56 pm, geoff wrote:

On 22/12/2021 8:04 am, Tobiah wrote:

Any of the delays you tried free or low cost?

If 'free' is you criteria, then download a dozen or so and try them
out. As I can achieve it easily with stock plugins from over a decade
ago, I really can't be bothered to look harder on your behalf.

I wasn't asking you to look.  I just wanted to know if any
of the plugins you tried were available would be available to me.
I've been using Reaper.

OK, just did it in Reaper with the stock DX plugin 'DX:Multi-Tap Delay'.

I had a snare hit, with the first echo at -50%, and subsequent ones
going up and down in level wrt the original dry hit.

FWIW Reaper was originally based on, or inspired by, SonicFoundry-cum-Sony-cum-Magix Vegas Pro, and has ended up like a combination of this plus SF/Sony/Magix Acid Pro, plus additional
features that have developed over the more-than-ten years.

Check it out here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/g7c0jejmacnxw39/AAAS23G9Y6WDWZl0mg9GDhI_a?dl=0

geoff

Bugger - seems Reaper was pickling up my Vegas DX plugins.

I've added all my DX ones in a sub-folder on that DropBox. They normally
live in c:\Windows\System32\ .

You could try dumping them all there and see what happens, but I expect
they actually need to be installed which puts something into Registry.

You can use the command-line like from here :

"DirectX plugins are registered with the system and the DAW just asks
the OS without having to know where it lives. IIRC it might be possible
to install the dll from a command line using: regsvr32 plugin.dll but
better to use the installer."

I don't know which one is the relevant d3dx????.DLL

JPG screen-cap on DropBox of the result.

geoff

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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