• Ribbon mics?

    From Liz Tuddenham@21:1/5 to All on Sun Feb 25 16:26:24 2024
    Can I be the first person in ages to ask an on-topic question here?

    Who uses 'ribbon' (i.e. Fig-8) mics on a regular basis and what do you
    find they are best at doing?


    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rwrising@dslextreme.com@21:1/5 to Liz Tuddenham on Sun Feb 25 18:05:27 2024
    On Sun Feb 25 16:26:24 2024 liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
    Can I be the first person in ages to ask an on-topic question here?

    Who uses 'ribbon' (i.e. Fig-8) mics on a regular basis and what do you
    find they are best at doing?


    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

    Great question! Ribbon dynamics are a special area of micland. Figure-of-eight patterns extend into condenser mics as well. I'll be interested to see the answers that address use of Fig-8 tools, be they ribbon or not. I shouldn't assume, but the
    inquiry seems directed at the pattern, not the motor.

    "If you notice the sound, it's wrong!" ~ Roy W. Rising

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Liz Tuddenham@21:1/5 to rwrising@dslextreme.com on Sun Feb 25 19:06:25 2024
    =?UTF-8?B?Um95IFcuIFJpc2luZw==?= <rwrising@dslextreme.com> wrote:

    On Sun Feb 25 16:26:24 2024 liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz
    Tuddenham) wrote:
    Can I be the first person in ages to ask an on-topic question here?

    Who uses 'ribbon' (i.e. Fig-8) mics on a regular basis and what do you
    find they are best at doing?


    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

    Great question! Ribbon dynamics are a special area of micland.
    Figure-of-eight patterns extend into condenser mics as well. I'll be >interested to see the answers that address use of Fig-8 tools, be they
    ribbon or not. I shouldn't assume, but the inquiry seems directed at
    the pattern, not the motor.

    Yes, the pattern is the bit I was interested in. Metal ribbons can sag
    if the microphone is mounted with the ribbon horizontal, but condenser
    Fig-8 mics can be mounted in this way without damage, so there are ways
    of using them that most microphone handbooks don't mention..

    I have used a Fig-8 mic horizontally in a large hall with nightmare
    acoustics: it was a cube with no scattering or absorbing material on any
    of the walls. By mounting the microphone horizontally above the narrator
    the 'plane of deadness' rejected the wall reflections and resulted in a successful broadcast.

    On another occasion I had to pick up the percussion department of a
    large brass band without any spurious pickup from the other instruments
    which would have thrown the stereo image of the main band out of place.
    By mounting a Fig-8 mic above the percussion, slightly tilted so that
    the 'plane of deadness' cut through the band I was able to get a clean
    feed from the percussion.

    The only snag with that arrangment became apparent at rehearsals when I
    faded up the percussion mic and everything went crazy: red lights
    flashed and meters hit their end stops. Nothing was audible on
    headphones except the sound being intermittently blocked out by some
    huge low-frequency overload. When I stood by the mic I realise that the heating had switched on and one of the floor vents was blowing hot air
    upwards straight into the ribbon. Luckily I carry an emergency pair of
    tights and they solved the problem.


    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From geoff@21:1/5 to Liz Tuddenham on Mon Feb 26 12:06:04 2024
    On 26/02/2024 5:26 am, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
    Can I be the first person in ages to ask an on-topic question here?

    Who uses 'ribbon' (i.e. Fig-8) mics on a regular basis and what do you
    find they are best at doing?



    I have a couple of vintage Tannoy ribbon mics in my locker. Intended a
    PA mics, so not exactly extended HF freq response, and I keep them more
    for looks and 'investment' than anything.

    However if I could afford them I would buy a pair of the likes of Royer
    R-122 for general use, especially high-level. Or SF-24 for live stereo
    miking. Or anything with high sound levels - supposed to be great on
    electric guitar speakers.

    Many' ribbon mics available, such as Royer, AEA, Shure, Cloud, Nady,
    sE, Rode, MXL, etc.

    geoff

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Liz Tuddenham@21:1/5 to geoff on Mon Feb 26 13:43:28 2024
    geoff <geoff@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote:

    ... - supposed to be great on
    electric guitar speakers.

    The bass tip-up effect should not be apparent close to a loudspeaker
    because the wavefront at that distance is plane, not spherical. It is
    rather counter-intuitive and difficult to explain without going too
    deeply into theory.


    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rwrising@dslextreme.com@21:1/5 to Liz Tuddenham on Tue Feb 27 17:35:53 2024
    On Mon Feb 26 13:43:28 2024 liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
    geoff <geoff@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote:

    ... - supposed to be great on
    electric guitar speakers.

    The bass tip-up effect should not be apparent close to a loudspeaker
    because the wavefront at that distance is plane, not spherical. It is
    rather counter-intuitive and difficult to explain without going too
    deeply into theory.


    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

    Liz - Please go "too deeply into theory". At present, I disagree with your statement about loudspeakers and proximity effect. The Audio University discussion on topic specifically addresses the matter, stating "By placing microphones very close to kick
    drums or bass amplifiers, you can also play upon the proximity effect. You ll get that deep, round tone that has become an essential element of many genres." https://audiouniversityonline.com/proximity-effect/. At the wavelengths in question, how does
    the mic "perceive" a difference between planar and spherical wavefronts?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Geoff@21:1/5 to Liz Tuddenham on Wed Feb 28 09:52:03 2024
    On 27/02/2024 2:43 am, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
    geoff <geoff@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote:

    ... - supposed to be great on
    electric guitar speakers.

    The bass tip-up effect should not be apparent close to a loudspeaker
    because the wavefront at that distance is plane, not spherical. It is
    rather counter-intuitive and difficult to explain without going too
    deeply into theory.



    The theory notwithstanding, or withstanding, they can sound great.

    After all in many circumstances pure fidelity is not the object of the exercise !

    geoff

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Liz Tuddenham@21:1/5 to rwrising@dslextreme.com on Tue Feb 27 22:08:50 2024
    =?UTF-8?B?Um95IFcuIFJpc2luZw==?= <rwrising@dslextreme.com> wrote:

    On Mon Feb 26 13:43:28 2024 liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz
    Tuddenham) wrote: > geoff <geoff@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote: >
    ... - supposed to be great on
    electric guitar speakers.

    The bass tip-up effect should not be apparent close to a loudspeaker because the wavefront at that distance is plane, not spherical. It is rather counter-intuitive and difficult to explain without going too
    deeply into theory.


    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

    Liz - Please go "too deeply into theory". At present, I disagree with
    your statement about loudspeakers and proximity effect. The Audio
    University discussion on topic specifically addresses the matter, stating
    "By placing microphones very close to kick drums or bass amplifiers, you
    can also play upon the proximity effect. You"""ll get that deep, round
    tone that has become an essential element of many genres." https://audiouniversityonline.com/proximity-effect/. At the wavelengths
    in question, how does the mic "perceive" a difference between planar and spherical wavefronts?

    Too late tonight, but I will reply properly tomorrow.


    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Liz Tuddenham@21:1/5 to Geoff on Wed Feb 28 11:19:54 2024
    Geoff <geoff@geoffwood.org> wrote:

    On 27/02/2024 2:43 am, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
    geoff <geoff@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote:

    ... - supposed to be great on
    electric guitar speakers.

    The bass tip-up effect should not be apparent close to a loudspeaker because the wavefront at that distance is plane, not spherical. It is rather counter-intuitive and difficult to explain without going too
    deeply into theory.



    The theory notwithstanding, or withstanding, they can sound great.

    If the cone is flexing and producing a spherical component because only
    the central part is emitting sound, then bass tip-up can occur. Theory
    can explain anything, given time. :-)

    After all in many circumstances pure fidelity is not the object of the exercise !

    Yes. Some of my technically most accurate recordings have been the worst-sounding.


    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Liz Tuddenham@21:1/5 to rwrising@dslextreme.com on Wed Feb 28 11:19:53 2024
    =?UTF-8?B?Um95IFcuIFJpc2luZw==?= <rwrising@dslextreme.com> wrote:

    On Mon Feb 26 13:43:28 2024 liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz
    Tuddenham) wrote: > geoff <geoff@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote: >
    ... - supposed to be great on
    electric guitar speakers.

    The bass tip-up effect should not be apparent close to a loudspeaker because the wavefront at that distance is plane, not spherical. It is rather counter-intuitive and difficult to explain without going too
    deeply into theory.


    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

    Liz - Please go "too deeply into theory".

    OK, here we go.....

    Assume a 'conventional' ribbon mic with a strong magnet and some narrow
    pole pieces with a thin aluminium ribbon tensioned loosely in the gap
    between them. The voltage [technically the E.M.F.] developed across the
    ends of the ribbon is directly proportional to the rate at which it cuts through the magnetic field in the gap, the 'velocity' of the ribbon.
    This movement is caused by a difference in air pressure between the two
    sides of the ribbon as the result of air vibration caused by sound.

    The tension in the ribbon is very low, so its resonance is below the
    audio spectrum and its mass is more important than its compliance at the frequencies we are interested in. The density of aluminium is a lot
    greater than air, so the tiny volume of the ribbon has more mass than
    the tiny volume of air it displaces. Therefore it does not move as
    freely as the air around it, but its mass is accelerated by the
    difference in air pressure between its two sides. At high frequencies
    the ribbon has little time to be accelerated to a given velocity and the
    force needed to do this is high -- but, as the frequency falls, it has
    time to be accelerated to the same velocity by smaller and smaller
    forces. The relationship is 6dB per octave between force and velocity,
    so, for a constant force caused by a constant pressure difference, the
    output voltage increases at 6dB per-octave-of-frequency-fall.


    Theoretical Plane Wave Response

    We can think of the pressure difference across the ribbon as being
    caused by plane sound pressure waves passing it. The distance the wave
    has to travel between the front of the ribbon and the back, means that
    each side is exposed to a different point on the (assumed sinusiodal)
    pressure waveform. If we take an example where the half-wavelength of
    the sound is exactly equal to the path length between the two side of
    the ribbon measured around the pole pieces, one side will be at peak
    positive pressure while the other side is at peak negative pressure.

    As the frequency falls and the wavelength of the sound becomes greater,
    the fixed path length will be a smaller and smaller proportion of the increasing wavelength and the difference between the two pressures will
    reduce. The reducing pressure with falling frequency very neatly
    compensates for the increasing sensitivity of the ribbon with falling
    frequency and the overall result is a flat frequency response. [At
    least up to the frequency where the half-wavelength equals the path
    difference and down to the point where resonance takes over.]


    Theoretical Spherical Wave Response

    If sound waves are issuing from a point source, they are spherical, not
    plane; this introduces another source of pressure difference across the
    ribbon. The spherical waves expand into a greater and greater volume of
    the surrounding air, so the energy density in each wave drops as the
    square of the distance from the source (the 'inverse square law'). This
    effect is independent of the wavelength. When an expanding sperical
    wave passes a ribbon mic, there will be an additional pressure
    difference across the ribbon caused by the drop in pressure of the wave
    itself, as it expands. This drop depends on the ratio of the path
    difference of the mic to the radius of curvature of the spherical wave;
    so it is greater nearer the source.

    However... Unlike the plane wave effect, the spherical wave effect does
    not change with frequency or wavelength and the pressure difference on
    the ribbon does not reduce with falling frequency. This means that a
    lower frequency gives the ribbon a greater velocity, so the voltage
    across the ribbon caused by spherical waves increases at 6dB per octave
    as the frequency falls.


    Practical Response

    In reality, most sources of sound give wavefronts which are spherical to
    some degree near the source and become more and more plane at a
    distance. Thus, as a ribbon mic approaches the source, its distant
    plane wave response (flat) will gradually be overpowered by its
    spherical wave response (bass tip-up). If the wavefront near the
    source is mostly plane because the source is large and flattish, for
    instance at the back of a double-bass or close to the cone of a large loudspeaker, the bass tip up effect will be weak or absent.


    Other Types of Microphone

    Cardioid and hypercardioid microphones achieve their directivity by
    combining a bidirectional [ribbon] response with an omnidirectional
    [pressure] response. They exhibit bass tip-up from the bidirectional component, but this is only part of the whole response and the effect is
    less than it would have been in a ribbon mic.


    Response Correction

    The transition from a flat response to a 6dB per octave one is exactly
    matched by a single-section RC high-pass filter and can be corrected by
    nothing more complex than that ...if the correct time constant is
    chosen. A variable time constant can be set by ear to correct for a
    range of mic distances. Multi-section sharp-cut filters for removing
    wind noise are unsuitable, so are shelving 'tone controls' of the
    Baxandall type.



    Hope I have gone deep enough , but if you want to go even more deeply
    into this, at a mathematical level, the best book I have found is a BBC Engineering Training Manual called "Microphones" by A.E. Robertson
    (London - Iliffe Books, New York - Hayden Book Co. Inc. ,1951)


    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Liz Tuddenham@21:1/5 to Liz Tuddenham on Fri Mar 1 12:38:55 2024
    Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:

    =?UTF-8?B?Um95IFcuIFJpc2luZw==?= <rwrising@dslextreme.com> wrote:

    On Mon Feb 26 13:43:28 2024 liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) wrote: > geoff <geoff@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote: >
    ... - supposed to be great on
    electric guitar speakers.

    The bass tip-up effect should not be apparent close to a loudspeaker because the wavefront at that distance is plane, not spherical. It is rather counter-intuitive and difficult to explain without going too deeply into theory.


    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

    Liz - Please go "too deeply into theory".

    It is probably easier to visualise with a few diagrams and graphs, so I
    have uploaded some at:

    http://poppyrecords.co.uk/other/BassTipUp/BassTipUp.htm


    Hope this helps.


    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Liz Tuddenham@21:1/5 to Matt Faunce on Sat Mar 2 13:52:00 2024
    Matt Faunce <mattfaunce@gmail.com> wrote:

    Roy W. Rising <rwrising@dslextreme.com> wrote:
    On Mon Feb 26 13:43:28 2024 liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz
    Tuddenham) wrote: > geoff <geoff@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote: >
    ... - supposed to be great on
    electric guitar speakers.

    The bass tip-up effect should not be apparent close to a loudspeaker
    because the wavefront at that distance is plane, not spherical. It is
    rather counter-intuitive and difficult to explain without going too
    deeply into theory.


    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

    Liz - Please go "too deeply into theory". At present, I disagree with
    your statement about loudspeakers and proximity effect. The Audio University discussion on topic specifically addresses the matter, stating "By placing microphones very close to kick drums or bass amplifiers, you can also play upon the proximity effect. Youll get that deep, round tone that has become an essential element of many genres." https://audiouniversityonline.com/proximity-effect/. At the wavelengths
    in question, how does the mic "perceive" a difference between planar and spherical wavefronts?




    Years ago, Don Pearce put an explanation up on the web of polar patterns
    and proximity effect.

    www.soundthoughts.co.uk/read/mic/

    He explains what the proximity effect is and what it sounds like but, in
    common with most other sources, he doesn't explain what causes it. That
    is the difficult bit which took me about 10 years to work out.

    I tried designing multi-capsule mic arrays that could have omni>
    cardioid > Fig-8 responses at the turn of a knob, but I wasn't happy
    about the Fig-8 because I didn't fully understand what was going on.
    The key to understanding it was a chapter of maths in a BBC training
    manual from the 1950s, which nearly addled my remaining brain cells.

    Slowly the practical implications dawned on me: the ribbon is under the influence of two different forces, one giving a flat frequency response
    and one giving a response that rises as frequency falls. The second
    one, which causes the proximity effect, is due to the drop in pressure
    of the wavefront as it rapidly expands near the source.

    Simplified graphical explanation at: http://www.poppyrecords.co.uk/other/Microphones/BassTipUp/BassTipUp.htm


    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott Dorsey@21:1/5 to Liz Tuddenham on Mon Mar 11 00:47:01 2024
    Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:
    Can I be the first person in ages to ask an on-topic question here?

    Who uses 'ribbon' (i.e. Fig-8) mics on a regular basis and what do you
    find they are best at doing?

    I use some figure-8 mikes that are ribbons and some that aren't ribbons.
    I also use some ribbons that aren't figure-8 (like the BK-5).

    The most important thing about a figure-8 is the null, which is deep and
    sharp and can be used to eliminate guitar leakage into a singer-songwriter's vocal mike or slap echo from the side of a room or from a floor.

    People get all het up about technology when they should worry more about pattern and sound.
    --scott


    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Liz Tuddenham@21:1/5 to Scott Dorsey on Mon Mar 11 09:21:40 2024
    Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:

    Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:
    Can I be the first person in ages to ask an on-topic question here?

    Who uses 'ribbon' (i.e. Fig-8) mics on a regular basis and what do you
    find they are best at doing?

    I use some figure-8 mikes that are ribbons and some that aren't ribbons.
    I also use some ribbons that aren't figure-8 (like the BK-5).

    The most important thing about a figure-8 is the null, which is deep and sharp and can be used to eliminate guitar leakage into a singer-songwriter's vocal mike or slap echo from the side of a room or from a floor.

    People get all het up about technology when they should worry more about pattern and sound.

    You have hit upon the effect that makes the ribbon so special and useful
    in difficult circumstances: It is the *null* that singles it out,
    rather than the response.

    Cardioids have a single point null which is rarely useful because the
    unwanted sound rarely comes from a single direction, but Fig-8 mics have
    a whole circle of null which can eliminate an entire wall reflection.
    Putting the mic horizontally can eliminate reflections from all four
    walls and give reasonable sound in an otherwise impossible room. (Not recommended with a true ribbon mic, where the ribbon is likely to sag.)


    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott Dorsey@21:1/5 to Liz Tuddenham on Mon Mar 11 14:20:07 2024
    Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:

    You have hit upon the effect that makes the ribbon so special and useful
    in difficult circumstances: It is the *null* that singles it out,
    rather than the response.

    Not necessarily. There are plenty of figure-8 condenser microphones out
    there that have great nulls too. I will often use a 414/TL in figure-8
    when I want a solid null.
    --scott

    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Liz Tuddenham@21:1/5 to Scott Dorsey on Tue Mar 12 13:21:50 2024
    Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:

    Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:

    You have hit upon the effect that makes the ribbon so special and useful
    in difficult circumstances: It is the *null* that singles it out,
    rather than the response.

    Not necessarily. There are plenty of figure-8 condenser microphones out there that have great nulls too. I will often use a 414/TL in figure-8
    when I want a solid null.

    I was using the term "ribbon" too loosely - I actually meant to include
    all mics with a ribbon-like response. I have made several capacitor
    capsule array mics, using cardioid capsules back-to-back to get a Fig-8 response. Even with all the approximations that arrangement involves,
    the null is pretty good.

    Having the directional control on a separate control box, it is possible
    to 'steer' the mic during a performance. I had to record a concert with
    a piano at one end of a room and an organ at the other. I suspended the
    mic in the centre and, as each one played, steered it in cardioid mode
    from one to the other. Then they played a duet, so I balanced them with
    a slightly uneven Fig-8 response.


    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott Dorsey@21:1/5 to Liz Tuddenham on Tue Mar 12 23:25:52 2024
    Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:

    I was using the term "ribbon" too loosely - I actually meant to include
    all mics with a ribbon-like response. I have made several capacitor
    capsule array mics, using cardioid capsules back-to-back to get a Fig-8 >response. Even with all the approximations that arrangement involves,
    the null is pretty good.

    But the ribbons I use most often are probably the M-260 and the RCA BK-5,
    both of which are cardioids!
    --scott

    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Liz Tuddenham@21:1/5 to Scott Dorsey on Wed Mar 13 08:54:43 2024
    Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:

    Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:

    I was using the term "ribbon" too loosely - I actually meant to include
    all mics with a ribbon-like response. I have made several capacitor >capsule array mics, using cardioid capsules back-to-back to get a Fig-8 >response. Even with all the approximations that arrangement involves,
    the null is pretty good.

    But the ribbons I use most often are probably the M-260 and the RCA BK-5, both of which are cardioids!


    The nomenclature is a bit of a problem:

    The expression "Microphone with a figure-of-eight response similar to a bidirectional ribbon" is a bit of a mouthful, and "Fig-8" in the text of
    an article could be taken as a reference to Figure-8 in the
    illustrations. "Bipolar" has medical implications and "Dipole" has
    already been taken by aerial engineers.

    The BBC used "Velocity response", which is confusing if you don't
    understand the maths behind the response - and it doesn't really help
    you to visualise how the microphone is going to behave.

    "Bidirectional" seems to be the best compromise, although it could
    include hypercardioid, which has a smaller back response and a conical
    null.

    Perhaps we should settle for "Equi-bidirectional" - but I can't see it
    catching on.


    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From geoff@21:1/5 to Liz Tuddenham on Thu Mar 14 09:38:35 2024
    On 13/03/2024 9:54 pm, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
    Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:

    Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:

    I was using the term "ribbon" too loosely - I actually meant to include
    all mics with a ribbon-like response. I have made several capacitor
    capsule array mics, using cardioid capsules back-to-back to get a Fig-8
    response. Even with all the approximations that arrangement involves,
    the null is pretty good.

    But the ribbons I use most often are probably the M-260 and the RCA BK-5,
    both of which are cardioids!


    The nomenclature is a bit of a problem:

    The expression "Microphone with a figure-of-eight response similar to a bidirectional ribbon" is a bit of a mouthful, and "Fig-8" in the text of
    an article could be taken as a reference to Figure-8 in the
    illustrations. "Bipolar" has medical implications and "Dipole" has
    already been taken by aerial engineers.

    The BBC used "Velocity response", which is confusing if you don't
    understand the maths behind the response - and it doesn't really help
    you to visualise how the microphone is going to behave.

    "Bidirectional" seems to be the best compromise, although it could
    include hypercardioid, which has a smaller back response and a conical
    null.

    Perhaps we should settle for "Equi-bidirectional" - but I can't see it catching on.

    Nomenclature not a problem at all.

    - Ribbon mics are ribbon mics.
    - Condensor mics are condensor mics
    - Fig-8 responses are Figure-8.
    - Cardioid responses are Cardioid.
    - Hyper-cardioid is just that, with an inevitable (unwanted0 minor rear response.

    And mics with variable patterns (preset or variable in-use) patterns are
    just that, irrespective of the motor type. And can often do Figure-8 continuously varied (favouring one side) through to cardioid, and onward through to omni.

    Your tilting from Fig-8 favouring one side OR the other sounds
    particularly nifty ;- )

    geoff

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott Dorsey@21:1/5 to geoff@nospamgeoffwood.org on Thu Mar 14 00:45:04 2024
    geoff <geoff@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote:
    - Hyper-cardioid is just that, with an inevitable (unwanted0 minor rear >response.

    It's not always unwanted! It can be a nice technique for getting some room sound in while avoiding slap echo from the sides. Or getting some piano into the same pair that has the vocals, without getting TOO much piano.
    --scott

    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rwrising@dslextreme.com@21:1/5 to Liz Tuddenham on Thu Mar 14 16:08:52 2024
    On Mon Mar 11 09:21:40 2024 liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
    Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:

    Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:
    Can I be the first person in ages to ask an on-topic question here?

    Who uses 'ribbon' (i.e. Fig-8) mics on a regular basis and what do you >find they are best at doing?

    I use some figure-8 mikes that are ribbons and some that aren't ribbons.
    I also use some ribbons that aren't figure-8 (like the BK-5).

    The most important thing about a figure-8 is the null, which is deep and sharp and can be used to eliminate guitar leakage into a singer-songwriter's
    vocal mike or slap echo from the side of a room or from a floor.

    People get all het up about technology when they should worry more about pattern and sound.

    You have hit upon the effect that makes the ribbon so special and useful
    in difficult circumstances: It is the *null* that singles it out,
    rather than the response.

    Cardioids have a single point null which is rarely useful because the unwanted sound rarely comes from a single direction, but Fig-8 mics have
    a whole circle of null which can eliminate an entire wall reflection.
    Putting the mic horizontally can eliminate reflections from all four
    walls and give reasonable sound in an otherwise impossible room. (Not recommended with a true ribbon mic, where the ribbon is likely to sag.)


    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

    The null of a cardioid is surrounded by a zone of diminished sensitivity. A football sideline "parab" benefits greatly from a cardioid pointed into the dish, reducing the sound of the crowd across the field.

    Let's not overlook the null of the hypercardioids! I think of it as a "cone of silence". In the Lawrence Welk orchestra the strings were on a riser behind and slightly above the woodwinds. I placed the EV RE-15 string mics angled upward with their nulls
    pointed at the woodwinds. One violinist was bothered by the mic's upward angle when the section was seated. He would adjust the mic downward, thus including the woodwinds in its pattern. I could hear the difference, I repeatedly had to send my A2 to
    correct the angle. After many attempts, during a break the A2 assumed the musician's chair and sat pretending to tune the instrument. When the player returned there was that "How dare you touch my rare and precious instrument?" The A2 responded with "I'
    ll leave it alone if you'll agree not to adjust our special and sensitive instrument". There are other cases where this has worked almost magically well.

    "If you notice the sound, it's wrong." Roy W. Rising

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Liz Tuddenham@21:1/5 to rwrising@dslextreme.com on Thu Mar 14 17:35:03 2024
    =?UTF-8?B?Um95IFcuIFJpc2luZw==?= <rwrising@dslextreme.com> wrote:

    [...] When the player returned there was that "How dare you touch my
    rare and precious instrument?" The A2 responded with "I'll leave it
    alone if you'll agree not to adjust our special and sensitive
    instrument". There are other cases where this has worked almost
    magically well.

    Nice one!


    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)