Can I be the first person in ages to ask an on-topic question here?
Who uses 'ribbon' (i.e. Fig-8) mics on a regular basis and what do you
find they are best at doing?
--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk
On Sun Feb 25 16:26:24 2024 liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz
Tuddenham) wrote:
Can I be the first person in ages to ask an on-topic question here?
Who uses 'ribbon' (i.e. Fig-8) mics on a regular basis and what do you
find they are best at doing?
--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk
Great question! Ribbon dynamics are a special area of micland.
Figure-of-eight patterns extend into condenser mics as well. I'll be >interested to see the answers that address use of Fig-8 tools, be they
ribbon or not. I shouldn't assume, but the inquiry seems directed at
the pattern, not the motor.
Can I be the first person in ages to ask an on-topic question here?
Who uses 'ribbon' (i.e. Fig-8) mics on a regular basis and what do you
find they are best at doing?
... - supposed to be great on
electric guitar speakers.
geoff <geoff@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote:
... - supposed to be great on
electric guitar speakers.
The bass tip-up effect should not be apparent close to a loudspeaker
because the wavefront at that distance is plane, not spherical. It is
rather counter-intuitive and difficult to explain without going too
deeply into theory.
--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk
geoff <geoff@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote:
... - supposed to be great on
electric guitar speakers.
The bass tip-up effect should not be apparent close to a loudspeaker
because the wavefront at that distance is plane, not spherical. It is
rather counter-intuitive and difficult to explain without going too
deeply into theory.
On Mon Feb 26 13:43:28 2024 liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz
Tuddenham) wrote: > geoff <geoff@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote: >
... - supposed to be great on
electric guitar speakers.
The bass tip-up effect should not be apparent close to a loudspeaker because the wavefront at that distance is plane, not spherical. It is rather counter-intuitive and difficult to explain without going too
deeply into theory.
--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk
Liz - Please go "too deeply into theory". At present, I disagree with
your statement about loudspeakers and proximity effect. The Audio
University discussion on topic specifically addresses the matter, stating
"By placing microphones very close to kick drums or bass amplifiers, you
can also play upon the proximity effect. You"""ll get that deep, round
tone that has become an essential element of many genres." https://audiouniversityonline.com/proximity-effect/. At the wavelengths
in question, how does the mic "perceive" a difference between planar and spherical wavefronts?
On 27/02/2024 2:43 am, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
geoff <geoff@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote:
... - supposed to be great on
electric guitar speakers.
The bass tip-up effect should not be apparent close to a loudspeaker because the wavefront at that distance is plane, not spherical. It is rather counter-intuitive and difficult to explain without going too
deeply into theory.
The theory notwithstanding, or withstanding, they can sound great.
After all in many circumstances pure fidelity is not the object of the exercise !
On Mon Feb 26 13:43:28 2024 liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz
Tuddenham) wrote: > geoff <geoff@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote: >
... - supposed to be great on
electric guitar speakers.
The bass tip-up effect should not be apparent close to a loudspeaker because the wavefront at that distance is plane, not spherical. It is rather counter-intuitive and difficult to explain without going too
deeply into theory.
--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk
Liz - Please go "too deeply into theory".
=?UTF-8?B?Um95IFcuIFJpc2luZw==?= <rwrising@dslextreme.com> wrote:
On Mon Feb 26 13:43:28 2024 liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) wrote: > geoff <geoff@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote: >
... - supposed to be great on
electric guitar speakers.
The bass tip-up effect should not be apparent close to a loudspeaker because the wavefront at that distance is plane, not spherical. It is rather counter-intuitive and difficult to explain without going too deeply into theory.
--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk
Liz - Please go "too deeply into theory".
Roy W. Rising <rwrising@dslextreme.com> wrote:
On Mon Feb 26 13:43:28 2024 liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz
Tuddenham) wrote: > geoff <geoff@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote: >
... - supposed to be great on
electric guitar speakers.
The bass tip-up effect should not be apparent close to a loudspeaker
because the wavefront at that distance is plane, not spherical. It is
rather counter-intuitive and difficult to explain without going too
deeply into theory.
--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk
Liz - Please go "too deeply into theory". At present, I disagree with
your statement about loudspeakers and proximity effect. The Audio University discussion on topic specifically addresses the matter, stating "By placing microphones very close to kick drums or bass amplifiers, you can also play upon the proximity effect. Youll get that deep, round tone that has become an essential element of many genres." https://audiouniversityonline.com/proximity-effect/. At the wavelengths
in question, how does the mic "perceive" a difference between planar and spherical wavefronts?
Years ago, Don Pearce put an explanation up on the web of polar patterns
and proximity effect.
www.soundthoughts.co.uk/read/mic/
Can I be the first person in ages to ask an on-topic question here?
Who uses 'ribbon' (i.e. Fig-8) mics on a regular basis and what do you
find they are best at doing?
Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:
Can I be the first person in ages to ask an on-topic question here?
Who uses 'ribbon' (i.e. Fig-8) mics on a regular basis and what do you
find they are best at doing?
I use some figure-8 mikes that are ribbons and some that aren't ribbons.
I also use some ribbons that aren't figure-8 (like the BK-5).
The most important thing about a figure-8 is the null, which is deep and sharp and can be used to eliminate guitar leakage into a singer-songwriter's vocal mike or slap echo from the side of a room or from a floor.
People get all het up about technology when they should worry more about pattern and sound.
You have hit upon the effect that makes the ribbon so special and useful
in difficult circumstances: It is the *null* that singles it out,
rather than the response.
Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:
You have hit upon the effect that makes the ribbon so special and useful
in difficult circumstances: It is the *null* that singles it out,
rather than the response.
Not necessarily. There are plenty of figure-8 condenser microphones out there that have great nulls too. I will often use a 414/TL in figure-8
when I want a solid null.
I was using the term "ribbon" too loosely - I actually meant to include
all mics with a ribbon-like response. I have made several capacitor
capsule array mics, using cardioid capsules back-to-back to get a Fig-8 >response. Even with all the approximations that arrangement involves,
the null is pretty good.
Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:
I was using the term "ribbon" too loosely - I actually meant to include
all mics with a ribbon-like response. I have made several capacitor >capsule array mics, using cardioid capsules back-to-back to get a Fig-8 >response. Even with all the approximations that arrangement involves,
the null is pretty good.
But the ribbons I use most often are probably the M-260 and the RCA BK-5, both of which are cardioids!
Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:
Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:
I was using the term "ribbon" too loosely - I actually meant to include
all mics with a ribbon-like response. I have made several capacitor
capsule array mics, using cardioid capsules back-to-back to get a Fig-8
response. Even with all the approximations that arrangement involves,
the null is pretty good.
But the ribbons I use most often are probably the M-260 and the RCA BK-5,
both of which are cardioids!
The nomenclature is a bit of a problem:
The expression "Microphone with a figure-of-eight response similar to a bidirectional ribbon" is a bit of a mouthful, and "Fig-8" in the text of
an article could be taken as a reference to Figure-8 in the
illustrations. "Bipolar" has medical implications and "Dipole" has
already been taken by aerial engineers.
The BBC used "Velocity response", which is confusing if you don't
understand the maths behind the response - and it doesn't really help
you to visualise how the microphone is going to behave.
"Bidirectional" seems to be the best compromise, although it could
include hypercardioid, which has a smaller back response and a conical
null.
Perhaps we should settle for "Equi-bidirectional" - but I can't see it catching on.
- Hyper-cardioid is just that, with an inevitable (unwanted0 minor rear >response.
Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:
Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:
Can I be the first person in ages to ask an on-topic question here?
Who uses 'ribbon' (i.e. Fig-8) mics on a regular basis and what do you >find they are best at doing?
I use some figure-8 mikes that are ribbons and some that aren't ribbons.
I also use some ribbons that aren't figure-8 (like the BK-5).
The most important thing about a figure-8 is the null, which is deep and sharp and can be used to eliminate guitar leakage into a singer-songwriter's
vocal mike or slap echo from the side of a room or from a floor.
People get all het up about technology when they should worry more about pattern and sound.
You have hit upon the effect that makes the ribbon so special and useful
in difficult circumstances: It is the *null* that singles it out,
rather than the response.
Cardioids have a single point null which is rarely useful because the unwanted sound rarely comes from a single direction, but Fig-8 mics have
a whole circle of null which can eliminate an entire wall reflection.
Putting the mic horizontally can eliminate reflections from all four
walls and give reasonable sound in an otherwise impossible room. (Not recommended with a true ribbon mic, where the ribbon is likely to sag.)
--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk
[...] When the player returned there was that "How dare you touch my
rare and precious instrument?" The A2 responded with "I'll leave it
alone if you'll agree not to adjust our special and sensitive
instrument". There are other cases where this has worked almost
magically well.
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