• Looking for some interesting materials for radiators

    From Adam Warnock@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jan 7 17:36:45 2021
    Hello, new here and all that jazz. I'm working on a space opera setting and one of the things I'm curious about are the materials that could be used to make a radiator. I have an idea on how warship radiators operate, but I'm trying not to break more
    rules than I need to.

    Basically, the radiators are flexible and can be rolled up into armored compartments to protect them from hostile fire. When deployed, ribbing in the panels stiffens to keep them from flopping about. Are there any materials that can be rigid in one set
    of circumstances, but flexible in another? Is this even plausible?

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  • From Arthur T.@21:1/5 to Adam Warnock on Thu Jan 7 21:26:16 2021
    In
    Message-ID:<93b1206d-bb1c-4281-a0b0-34ca76718b24n@googlegroups.com>,
    Adam Warnock <salsa.the.geek@gmail.com> wrote:

    Hello, new here and all that jazz. I'm working on a space opera setting and one of the things I'm curious about are the materials that could be used to make a radiator. I have an idea on how warship radiators operate, but I'm trying not to break more
    rules than I need to.

    Basically, the radiators are flexible and can be rolled up into armored compartments to protect them from hostile fire. When deployed, ribbing in the panels stiffens to keep them from flopping about. Are there any materials that can be rigid in one set
    of circumstances, but flexible in another? Is this even plausible?

    I'm a reader rather than a scientist. I'm much happier with
    properly-done handwaving than explanations that just don't gel.

    Again, this is just my opinion, but why not explain what you just did
    and not go into the mechanics of it, unless it's important to your
    plot or world building? If it doesn't sound implausible, which it
    doesn't, I'd accept it. But an attempt to explain it, in detail, will
    get me thinking about it and possibly take me out of my willing
    suspension of disbelief.

    The other problem with scientific explanations is that they stop the
    story and risk causing glazed eyes when you want rapt attention.

    One of the biggest problems I have with mainstream writers trying
    their hands at SF is too much (bad) explanation and not enough hand
    waving.

    But, to answer your question, the easiest is probably pneumatic or
    hydraulic. Filled, pressurized areas will keep the panels stiff, and
    relieving the pressure will let them bend, roll, and fold.

    --
    Arthur T. - ar23hur "at" pobox "dot" com

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  • From Adam Warnock@21:1/5 to Arthur T. on Fri Jan 8 06:26:38 2021
    On Thursday, January 7, 2021 at 8:26:19 PM UTC-6, Arthur T. wrote:
    In
    Message-ID:<93b1206d-bb1c-4281...@googlegroups.com>,
    Adam Warnock <salsa.t...@gmail.com> wrote:

    Hello, new here and all that jazz. I'm working on a space opera setting and one of the things I'm curious about are the materials that could be used to make a radiator. I have an idea on how warship radiators operate, but I'm trying not to break more
    rules than I need to.

    Basically, the radiators are flexible and can be rolled up into armored compartments to protect them from hostile fire. When deployed, ribbing in the panels stiffens to keep them from flopping about. Are there any materials that can be rigid in one
    set of circumstances, but flexible in another? Is this even plausible?
    I'm a reader rather than a scientist. I'm much happier with
    properly-done handwaving than explanations that just don't gel.

    Again, this is just my opinion, but why not explain what you just did
    and not go into the mechanics of it, unless it's important to your
    plot or world building? If it doesn't sound implausible, which it
    doesn't, I'd accept it. But an attempt to explain it, in detail, will
    get me thinking about it and possibly take me out of my willing
    suspension of disbelief.

    The other problem with scientific explanations is that they stop the
    story and risk causing glazed eyes when you want rapt attention.

    One of the biggest problems I have with mainstream writers trying
    their hands at SF is too much (bad) explanation and not enough hand
    waving.

    But, to answer your question, the easiest is probably pneumatic or hydraulic. Filled, pressurized areas will keep the panels stiff, and relieving the pressure will let them bend, roll, and fold.

    --
    Arthur T. - ar23hur "at" pobox "dot" com

    Y'know, pneumatics/hydralics would would make things simpler than using some supermaterial. And the point about info-dumping (especially with bad explanations) is duly noted. I wanted to know so that even if it never came up, I had a solid foundation to
    build details around.

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  • From -dsr-@21:1/5 to Adam Warnock on Fri Jan 8 12:25:44 2021
    On 2021-01-08, Adam Warnock <salsa.the.geek@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Thursday, January 7, 2021 at 8:26:19 PM UTC-6, Arthur T. wrote:
    In
    Message-ID:<93b1206d-bb1c-4281...@googlegroups.com>,
    Adam Warnock <salsa.t...@gmail.com> wrote:

    Hello, new here and all that jazz. I'm working on a space opera setting and one of the things I'm curious about are the materials that could be used to make a radiator. I have an idea on how warship radiators operate, but I'm trying not to break more
    rules than I need to.

    Basically, the radiators are flexible and can be rolled up into armored compartments to protect them from hostile fire. When deployed, ribbing in the panels stiffens to keep them from flopping about. Are there any materials that can be rigid in one
    set of circumstances, but flexible in another? Is this even plausible?
    Again, this is just my opinion, but why not explain what you just did
    and not go into the mechanics of it, unless it's important to your
    plot or world building? If it doesn't sound implausible, which it
    doesn't, I'd accept it. But an attempt to explain it, in detail, will
    get me thinking about it and possibly take me out of my willing
    suspension of disbelief.

    Y'know, pneumatics/hydralics would would make things simpler than using some supermaterial. And the point about info-dumping (especially with bad explanations) is duly noted. I wanted to know so that even if it never came up, I had a solid foundation
    to build details around.


    A radiator is a heat-exchange mechanism, and in space, it doesn't get to use any mechanism except radiation. So you want lots of surface area.

    Inside that surface area, you want maximally efficient heat distribution, and you get to set the mechanism. There are quite a few liquids which are good at heat transfer, and while water is not the best such liquid, it has lots of other uses on [human, at least] ships.

    Have your panels unroll as hot water floods through the embedded pipework. You want panels to be at right angles to each other so that they don't radiate
    back on to each other. The water pressure can serve as the stiffening feature. Don't let them freeze, unless you want it to be a plot point.

    If solar panels are useful, you want the radiators at right angles to the
    solar panels, and possibly in their shadows. See the ISS layout.

    -dsr-

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  • From Joel Polowin@21:1/5 to Adam Warnock on Fri Jan 8 16:04:04 2021
    On 2021-01-08 9:26 AM, Adam Warnock wrote:
    Y'know, pneumatics/hydralics would would make things simpler than using some supermaterial. And the point about info-dumping (especially with bad explanations) is duly noted. I wanted to know so that even if it never came up, I had a solid foundation
    to build details around.

    While I'm entirely on board with the principles of "keep it simple" and
    "don't over-explain what can better be left as a black box", you might
    want to read about magnetorheological fluids. Ordinarily fluid, they
    become much more viscous under magnetic fields. They might be useful in providing some rigidity to the system that you're describing.

    I was slightly irritated while overhearing an audio book that my partner
    was listening to recently, in that the author kept referring to lights
    as "LEDs". The book was set some 300 years in our future. Being
    specific about the lighting technology implied that in 300 years,
    despite tremendous advancements in other areas, we'd still be using
    LEDs. Unless they intended to make a statement about the state of human technology, the author would have been better off just using "lights" or "lamps" or some such thing. The details of the lighting tech weren't
    relevant to the story itself.

    If your radiators were working by conduction or convection -- that is,
    by transferring heat to another medium -- you'd want them to have as
    much surface area as possible. If they're working strictly by
    radiation to space, you want them to have as much unobstructed
    line-of-sight exposure as possible. Radiation from one part of the radiator that hits and is absorbed by another part of the radiator doesn't do
    you any good.

    Joel

    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
    https://www.avg.com

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  • From Arthur T.@21:1/5 to Adam Warnock on Fri Jan 8 16:43:39 2021
    In
    Message-ID:<0e8c9058-ab54-43d5-aadd-26741afa999cn@googlegroups.com>,
    Adam Warnock <salsa.the.geek@gmail.com> wrote:

    And the point about info-dumping (especially with bad explanations) is duly noted. I wanted to know so that even if it never came up, I had a solid foundation to build details around.

    And that's one of the best reasons to figure this kind of thing out.
    The realer the world is to you, the realer you can make it to your
    readers, even if much of what makes it real never gets onto a page.
    YOU know how it's done, even if all you say is, "He hit the button to
    deploy the radiators to get rid of all the waste heat the ship had
    accumulated, and watched to make sure they unrolled and stiffened
    into proper configuration," or maybe even something simpler.

    And I agree with what Joel Polowin said about naming technology.
    Using the latest "gee, wow" names or technologies for far future
    settings is problematic; better to use either some generic or made-up
    term.

    --
    Arthur T. - ar23hur "at" pobox "dot" com

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  • From eripe@21:1/5 to salsa.t...@gmail.com on Sun Jan 10 16:41:30 2021
    On Friday, January 8, 2021 at 8:36:46 AM UTC+7, salsa.t...@gmail.com wrote:
    Hello, new here and all that jazz. I'm working on a space opera setting and one of the things I'm curious about are the materials that could be used to make a radiator. I have an idea on how warship radiators operate, but I'm trying not to break more
    rules than I need to.

    Basically, the radiators are flexible and can be rolled up into armored compartments to protect them from hostile fire. When deployed, ribbing in the panels stiffens to keep them from flopping about. Are there any materials that can be rigid in one set
    of circumstances, but flexible in another? Is this even plausible?

    First of just want to refer you to Atomic Rockets, if you haven't already found it.

    http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/heatrad.php

    No current day materials can work like you want at the temperatures you need less the radiator becomes ginormous. You basically want a thermarest made from carbon-tungsten composit.

    A couple of options
    Graphene can be made from very thin strips that can be rolled up, and they have most excellent heat conducting properties. But I don't know if it is enough without some fluid circulation.

    A droplet radiator can be folded in too, but you cant do any turning while using it, or you loose you radiator fluid.

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  • From Robert Clark@21:1/5 to salsa.t...@gmail.com on Sun Jan 17 05:24:08 2021
    On Thursday, January 7, 2021 at 8:36:46 PM UTC-5, salsa.t...@gmail.com wrote:
    Hello, new here and all that jazz. I'm working on a space opera setting and one of the things I'm curious about are the materials that could be used to make a radiator. I have an idea on how warship radiators operate, but I'm trying not to break more
    rules than I need to.

    Basically, the radiators are flexible and can be rolled up into armored compartments to protect them from hostile fire. When deployed, ribbing in the panels stiffens to keep them from flopping about. Are there any materials that can be rigid in one set
    of circumstances, but flexible in another? Is this even plausible? ============================================================================

    Look up:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetorheological_fluid

    and:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrofluid

    Some cool videos also on the net describing their properties.

    Robert Clark

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  • From jack tingle@21:1/5 to salsa.t...@gmail.com on Thu Nov 18 08:38:22 2021
    On Thursday, January 7, 2021 at 8:36:46 PM UTC-5, salsa.t...@gmail.com wrote:
    Hello, new here and all that jazz. I'm working on a space opera setting and one of the things I'm curious about are the materials that could be used to make a radiator. I have an idea on how warship radiators operate, but I'm trying not to break more
    rules than I need to.

    Basically, the radiators are flexible and can be rolled up into armored compartments to protect them from hostile fire. When deployed, ribbing in the panels stiffens to keep them from flopping about. Are there any materials that can be rigid in one set
    of circumstances, but flexible in another? Is this even plausible?

    Try heavy gauge aluminum foil, painted black with something flexible like black paint. An incompressible fluid will pressurize and stiffen them, and a roller will retract them and squeeze out the fluid when you want to stow them. The structure should be
    tubular perpendicular to the roller. Life will be limited, so make it cheap enough to be recycled into beer cans or whatever.

    There are a number of ways of manufacturing these. The fancy way is to use a complicated rolling procedure to make them from a pair of sheets of aluminum, with complicated bonding, rolling, and surface treatments internally and then hydraulically
    expanded. Or you could just resistance weld foil into the final shape you want. In either case, a spray can of black paint is the final item.

    Good luck,
    Jack Tingle

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