Hi all,

I know we can use TADS and INFORM7 etc but for kicks I really want to get into ZIL code and write some programs/test-games in code before attempting a much bigger project.

What is the knowledge of and usage of ZIL like these days? Could anyone out there give me some pointers please and i'll return the favour if possible!

Are any of the original ZIL coders still active or maybe amenable to helping a 'noob' out? :)

Thanks!
HMX

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 3/13/17 11:04 PM, Happy MAC XL wrote:

Hi all,

I know we can use TADS and INFORM7 etc but for kicks I really want to get into ZIL code and write some programs/test-games in code before attempting a much bigger project.

What is the knowledge of and usage of ZIL like these days? Could anyone out there give me some pointers please and i'll return the favour if possible!

Are any of the original ZIL coders still active or maybe amenable to helping a 'noob' out? :)

It hasn’t been such a long time that Imps can’t be found, but:

1. Do you have a ZIL compiler?
2. Do you have a TOPS-20 system capable of running it?
3. Are you aware that ZILCH had no library? That a game written in ZIL
must include a parser and world model written from scratch? The only
thing you get for free is the lexer, which is built into the Z machine.

--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

1. Do you have a ZIL compiler?
Yes. Re-implementation of the ZIL compiler: https://bitbucket.org/jmcgrew/zilf/wiki/Home

2. Do you have a TOPS-20 system capable of running it?
The .z* game file should run on Z-Machine (at least that's my experience so far) so i'm not too sure I know where you're coming from on this? I've built a TOPS-10 emulation (PDP-10) system running on Raspberry Pi so if push comes to shove i'm sure I
could look at this. Can you explain a little more on this please? Thanks.

3. Are you aware that ZILCH had no library? That a game written in ZIL
must include a parser and world model written from scratch? The only
thing you get for free is the lexer, which is built into the Z machine.
Parser yes, world model no! That's food for thought.

Thanks

On Tuesday, March 14, 2017 at 3:23:43 AM UTC, John W. Kennedy wrote:

On 3/13/17 11:04 PM, Happy MAC XL wrote:

Hi all,

I know we can use TADS and INFORM7 etc but for kicks I really want to get into ZIL code and write some programs/test-games in code before attempting a much bigger project.

What is the knowledge of and usage of ZIL like these days? Could anyone out there give me some pointers please and i'll return the favour if possible!

Are any of the original ZIL coders still active or maybe amenable to helping a 'noob' out? :)

It hasn’t been such a long time that Imps can’t be found, but:

1. Do you have a ZIL compiler?
2. Do you have a TOPS-20 system capable of running it?
3. Are you aware that ZILCH had no library? That a game written in ZIL
must include a parser and world model written from scratch? The only
thing you get for free is the lexer, which is built into the Z machine.

--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 3/14/17 1:10 AM, Happy MAC XL wrote:

1. Do you have a ZIL compiler?
Yes. Re-implementation of the ZIL compiler: https://bitbucket.org/jmcgrew/zilf/wiki/Home

2. Do you have a TOPS-20 system capable of running it?
The .z* game file should run on Z-Machine (at least that's my experience so far) so i'm not too sure I know where you're coming from on this? I've built a TOPS-10 emulation (PDP-10) system running on Raspberry Pi so if push comes to shove i'm sure I

could look at this. Can you explain a little more on this please? Thanks.

The ZILCH compiler itself didn’t run on the Z-machine; it ran on a DEC TOPS-20 system that Infocom always called “the mainframe”. If you have a new ZIL compiler, then you’ll need whatever that runs on. That’s
probably Windows, macOS, or Linux, so you should be OK.

3. Are you aware that ZILCH had no library? That a game written in ZIL
must include a parser and world model written from scratch? The only
thing you get for free is the lexer, which is built into the Z machine. Parser yes, world model no! That's food for thought.

If you don’t have a world model, then you don’t have a parser, either.
Not, at least, as the word “parser” is used in the IF world. A usable natural-language parser needs to understand the world model in order to disambiguate. However, I gather this ZILF package includes a
foundational world model and parser that you can start from. That’s what
the Implementors did; each new game after Zork I started with an old
game, which was then gutted and rebuilt for the new scenario.

Thanks

On Tuesday, March 14, 2017 at 3:23:43 AM UTC, John W. Kennedy wrote:

On 3/13/17 11:04 PM, Happy MAC XL wrote:

Hi all,

I know we can use TADS and INFORM7 etc but for kicks I really want to get into ZIL code and write some programs/test-games in code before attempting a much bigger project.

What is the knowledge of and usage of ZIL like these days? Could anyone out there give me some pointers please and i'll return the favour if possible!

Are any of the original ZIL coders still active or maybe amenable to helping a 'noob' out? :)

It hasn’t been such a long time that Imps can’t be found, but:

1. Do you have a ZIL compiler?
2. Do you have a TOPS-20 system capable of running it?
3. Are you aware that ZILCH had no library? That a game written in ZIL
must include a parser and world model written from scratch? The only
thing you get for free is the lexer, which is built into the Z machine.

--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"

--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"If you don’t have a world model, then you don’t have a parser, either. Not, at least, as the word “parser” is used in the IF world. A usable natural-language parser needs to understand the world model in order to disambiguate."

I understand now, that makes sense. I'll need to do a fair bit of work on this in order to get the level of immersion and interaction that I want to achieve.

Are you still active in IF then? (apologies if you're on your 10th IF and the question seems almost offensive(!), again i'm late to the party on this and very much starting from a blank canvass).



On Tuesday, March 14, 2017 at 5:56:56 PM UTC, John W. Kennedy wrote:

On 3/14/17 1:10 AM, Happy MAC XL wrote:

1. Do you have a ZIL compiler?
Yes. Re-implementation of the ZIL compiler: https://bitbucket.org/jmcgrew/zilf/wiki/Home

2. Do you have a TOPS-20 system capable of running it?
The .z* game file should run on Z-Machine (at least that's my experience so far) so i'm not too sure I know where you're coming from on this? I've built a TOPS-10 emulation (PDP-10) system running on Raspberry Pi so if push comes to shove i'm sure I

could look at this. Can you explain a little more on this please? Thanks.

The ZILCH compiler itself didn’t run on the Z-machine; it ran on a DEC TOPS-20 system that Infocom always called “the mainframe”. If you have a new ZIL compiler, then you’ll need whatever that runs on. That’s probably Windows, macOS, or Linux, so you should be OK.

3. Are you aware that ZILCH had no library? That a game written in ZIL
must include a parser and world model written from scratch? The only
thing you get for free is the lexer, which is built into the Z machine. Parser yes, world model no! That's food for thought.

If you don’t have a world model, then you don’t have a parser, either. Not, at least, as the word “parser” is used in the IF world. A usable natural-language parser needs to understand the world model in order to disambiguate. However, I gather this ZILF package includes a
foundational world model and parser that you can start from. That’s what the Implementors did; each new game after Zork I started with an old
game, which was then gutted and rebuilt for the new scenario.

Thanks

On Tuesday, March 14, 2017 at 3:23:43 AM UTC, John W. Kennedy wrote:

On 3/13/17 11:04 PM, Happy MAC XL wrote:

Hi all,

I know we can use TADS and INFORM7 etc but for kicks I really want to get into ZIL code and write some programs/test-games in code before attempting a much bigger project.

What is the knowledge of and usage of ZIL like these days? Could anyone out there give me some pointers please and i'll return the favour if possible!

Are any of the original ZIL coders still active or maybe amenable to helping a 'noob' out? :)

It hasn’t been such a long time that Imps can’t be found, but:

1. Do you have a ZIL compiler?
2. Do you have a TOPS-20 system capable of running it?
3. Are you aware that ZILCH had no library? That a game written in ZIL
must include a parser and world model written from scratch? The only
thing you get for free is the lexer, which is built into the Z machine.

--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"

--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Thanks John. So I probably should confess that i'm a Hobbyist and a relatively novice one at that; so whilst the desire is there the experience and knowledge isn't so i've got a steep learning curve here.

"The ZILCH compiler itself didn’t run on the Z-machine; it ran on a DEC TOPS-20 system that Infocom always called “the mainframe”."
I didn't know that, thanks for mentioning it, I think I can safely say that I won't be using ZILCH then ... :)


"If you have a new ZIL compiler, then you’ll need whatever that runs on. That’s
probably Windows, macOS, or Linux, so you should be OK. "
I have the one mentioned earlier yes so all being well this will do the trick. I'll be doing the whole thing (likely including writing the narrative) on a 32-Bit Linux OS. Actually you might be able to help me, would you know offhand please whether
from a compiling perspective it would matter whether this was done on 32-Bit or 64-Bit? Are they interchangeable in terms of the "compiled end product"?

I did manage to contact Bruce Daniels through LinkedIn and have a conversation running with him; just explaining what i'm hoping to achieve with all this.

:)



On Tuesday, March 14, 2017 at 5:56:56 PM UTC, John W. Kennedy wrote:

On 3/14/17 1:10 AM, Happy MAC XL wrote:

1. Do you have a ZIL compiler?
Yes. Re-implementation of the ZIL compiler: https://bitbucket.org/jmcgrew/zilf/wiki/Home

2. Do you have a TOPS-20 system capable of running it?
The .z* game file should run on Z-Machine (at least that's my experience so far) so i'm not too sure I know where you're coming from on this? I've built a TOPS-10 emulation (PDP-10) system running on Raspberry Pi so if push comes to shove i'm sure I

could look at this. Can you explain a little more on this please? Thanks.

The ZILCH compiler itself didn’t run on the Z-machine; it ran on a DEC TOPS-20 system that Infocom always called “the mainframe”. If you have a new ZIL compiler, then you’ll need whatever that runs on. That’s probably Windows, macOS, or Linux, so you should be OK.

3. Are you aware that ZILCH had no library? That a game written in ZIL
must include a parser and world model written from scratch? The only
thing you get for free is the lexer, which is built into the Z machine. Parser yes, world model no! That's food for thought.

If you don’t have a world model, then you don’t have a parser, either. Not, at least, as the word “parser” is used in the IF world. A usable natural-language parser needs to understand the world model in order to disambiguate. However, I gather this ZILF package includes a
foundational world model and parser that you can start from. That’s what the Implementors did; each new game after Zork I started with an old
game, which was then gutted and rebuilt for the new scenario.

Thanks

On Tuesday, March 14, 2017 at 3:23:43 AM UTC, John W. Kennedy wrote:

On 3/13/17 11:04 PM, Happy MAC XL wrote:

Hi all,

I know we can use TADS and INFORM7 etc but for kicks I really want to get into ZIL code and write some programs/test-games in code before attempting a much bigger project.

What is the knowledge of and usage of ZIL like these days? Could anyone out there give me some pointers please and i'll return the favour if possible!

Are any of the original ZIL coders still active or maybe amenable to helping a 'noob' out? :)

It hasn’t been such a long time that Imps can’t be found, but:

1. Do you have a ZIL compiler?
2. Do you have a TOPS-20 system capable of running it?
3. Are you aware that ZILCH had no library? That a game written in ZIL
must include a parser and world model written from scratch? The only
thing you get for free is the lexer, which is built into the Z machine.

--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"

--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 3/15/17 9:59 AM, Happy MAC XL wrote:

Thanks John. So I probably should confess that i'm a Hobbyist and a relatively novice one at that; so whilst the desire is there the experience and knowledge isn't so i've got a steep learning curve here.

"The ZILCH compiler itself didn’t run on the Z-machine; it ran on a DEC TOPS-20 system that Infocom always called “the mainframe”."
I didn't know that, thanks for mentioning it, I think I can safely say that I won't be using ZILCH then ... :)

"If you have a new ZIL compiler, then you’ll need whatever that runs on. That’s
probably Windows, macOS, or Linux, so you should be OK. "
I have the one mentioned earlier yes so all being well this will do the trick. I'll be doing the whole thing (likely including writing the narrative) on a 32-Bit Linux OS. Actually you might be able to help me, would you know offhand please whether

from a compiling perspective it would matter whether this was done on 32-Bit or 64-Bit? Are they interchangeable in terms of the "compiled end product"?

The Z-machine itself is 16-bit; whether the compiler is 32-bit or 64-bit
should make no difference. I have no idea, though, whether the ZILF
source code will compile correctly in both forms.

I did manage to contact Bruce Daniels through LinkedIn and have a conversation running with him; just explaining what i'm hoping to achieve with all this.

:)

On Tuesday, March 14, 2017 at 5:56:56 PM UTC, John W. Kennedy wrote:

On 3/14/17 1:10 AM, Happy MAC XL wrote:

1. Do you have a ZIL compiler?
Yes. Re-implementation of the ZIL compiler:
https://bitbucket.org/jmcgrew/zilf/wiki/Home

2. Do you have a TOPS-20 system capable of running it?
The .z* game file should run on Z-Machine (at least that's my experience so far) so i'm not too sure I know where you're coming from on this? I've built a TOPS-10 emulation (PDP-10) system running on Raspberry Pi so if push comes to shove i'm sure I

could look at this. Can you explain a little more on this please? Thanks.

The ZILCH compiler itself didn’t run on the Z-machine; it ran on a DEC
TOPS-20 system that Infocom always called “the mainframe”.. If you have a
new ZIL compiler, then you’ll need whatever that runs on. That’s
probably Windows, macOS, or Linux, so you should be OK.

3. Are you aware that ZILCH had no library? That a game written in ZIL
must include a parser and world model written from scratch? The only
thing you get for free is the lexer, which is built into the Z machine.
Parser yes, world model no! That's food for thought.

If you don’t have a world model, then you don’t have a parser, either. >> Not, at least, as the word “parser” is used in the IF world. A usable
natural-language parser needs to understand the world model in order to
disambiguate. However, I gather this ZILF package includes a
foundational world model and parser that you can start from. That’s what >> the Implementors did; each new game after Zork I started with an old
game, which was then gutted and rebuilt for the new scenario.

Thanks

On Tuesday, March 14, 2017 at 3:23:43 AM UTC, John W. Kennedy wrote:

On 3/13/17 11:04 PM, Happy MAC XL wrote:

Hi all,

I know we can use TADS and INFORM7 etc but for kicks I really want to get into ZIL code and write some programs/test-games in code before attempting a much bigger project.

What is the knowledge of and usage of ZIL like these days? Could anyone out there give me some pointers please and i'll return the favour if possible!

Are any of the original ZIL coders still active or maybe amenable to helping a 'noob' out? :)

It hasn’t been such a long time that Imps can’t be found, but:

1. Do you have a ZIL compiler?
2. Do you have a TOPS-20 system capable of running it?
3. Are you aware that ZILCH had no library? That a game written in ZIL >>>> must include a parser and world model written from scratch? The only
thing you get for free is the lexer, which is built into the Z machine.. >>>>
--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"

--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"

--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 3/15/17 10:06 AM, Happy MAC XL wrote:

"If you don’t have a world model, then you don’t have a parser, either. Not, at least, as the word “parser” is used in the IF world.. A usable natural-language parser needs to understand the world model in order to disambiguate."

I understand now, that makes sense. I'll need to do a fair bit of work on this in order to get the level of immersion and interaction that I want to achieve.

Are you still active in IF then? (apologies if you're on your 10th IF and the question seems almost offensive(!), again i'm late to the party on this and very much starting from a blank canvass).

I don’t seem to have the time to do it, but I have a strong interest
still. My wife and I beta-tested for Infocom from 1984 on, and I’ve been
a programmer since 1965.

On Tuesday, March 14, 2017 at 5:56:56 PM UTC, John W. Kennedy wrote:

On 3/14/17 1:10 AM, Happy MAC XL wrote:

1. Do you have a ZIL compiler?
Yes. Re-implementation of the ZIL compiler:
https://bitbucket.org/jmcgrew/zilf/wiki/Home

2. Do you have a TOPS-20 system capable of running it?
The .z* game file should run on Z-Machine (at least that's my experience so far) so i'm not too sure I know where you're coming from on this? I've built a TOPS-10 emulation (PDP-10) system running on Raspberry Pi so if push comes to shove i'm sure I

could look at this. Can you explain a little more on this please? Thanks.

The ZILCH compiler itself didn’t run on the Z-machine; it ran on a DEC
TOPS-20 system that Infocom always called “the mainframe”.. If you have a
new ZIL compiler, then you’ll need whatever that runs on. That’s
probably Windows, macOS, or Linux, so you should be OK.

3. Are you aware that ZILCH had no library? That a game written in ZIL
must include a parser and world model written from scratch? The only
thing you get for free is the lexer, which is built into the Z machine.
Parser yes, world model no! That's food for thought.

If you don’t have a world model, then you don’t have a parser, either. >> Not, at least, as the word “parser” is used in the IF world. A usable
natural-language parser needs to understand the world model in order to
disambiguate. However, I gather this ZILF package includes a
foundational world model and parser that you can start from. That’s what >> the Implementors did; each new game after Zork I started with an old
game, which was then gutted and rebuilt for the new scenario.

Thanks

On Tuesday, March 14, 2017 at 3:23:43 AM UTC, John W. Kennedy wrote:

On 3/13/17 11:04 PM, Happy MAC XL wrote:

Hi all,

I know we can use TADS and INFORM7 etc but for kicks I really want to get into ZIL code and write some programs/test-games in code before attempting a much bigger project.

What is the knowledge of and usage of ZIL like these days? Could anyone out there give me some pointers please and i'll return the favour if possible!

Are any of the original ZIL coders still active or maybe amenable to helping a 'noob' out? :)

It hasn’t been such a long time that Imps can’t be found, but:

1. Do you have a ZIL compiler?
2. Do you have a TOPS-20 system capable of running it?
3. Are you aware that ZILCH had no library? That a game written in ZIL >>>> must include a parser and world model written from scratch? The only
thing you get for free is the lexer, which is built into the Z machine.. >>>>
--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"

--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"

--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, March 15, 2017 at 3:04:38 PM UTC, John W. Kennedy wrote:

On 3/15/17 10:06 AM, Happy MAC XL wrote:

"If you don’t have a world model, then you don’t have a parser, either. Not, at least, as the word “parser” is used in the IF world.. A usable natural-language parser needs to understand the world model in order to disambiguate."

I understand now, that makes sense. I'll need to do a fair bit of work on this in order to get the level of immersion and interaction that I want to achieve.

Are you still active in IF then? (apologies if you're on your 10th IF and the question seems almost offensive(!), again i'm late to the party on this and very much starting from a blank canvass).

I don’t seem to have the time to do it, but I have a strong interest still. My wife and I beta-tested for Infocom from 1984 on, and I’ve been
a programmer since 1965.

On Tuesday, March 14, 2017 at 5:56:56 PM UTC, John W. Kennedy wrote:

On 3/14/17 1:10 AM, Happy MAC XL wrote:

1. Do you have a ZIL compiler?
Yes. Re-implementation of the ZIL compiler:
https://bitbucket.org/jmcgrew/zilf/wiki/Home

2. Do you have a TOPS-20 system capable of running it?
The .z* game file should run on Z-Machine (at least that's my experience so far) so i'm not too sure I know where you're coming from on this? I've built a TOPS-10 emulation (PDP-10) system running on Raspberry Pi so if push comes to shove i'm sure

I could look at this. Can you explain a little more on this please? Thanks.

The ZILCH compiler itself didn’t run on the Z-machine; it ran on a DEC >> TOPS-20 system that Infocom always called “the mainframe”.. If you have a
new ZIL compiler, then you’ll need whatever that runs on. That’s
probably Windows, macOS, or Linux, so you should be OK.

3. Are you aware that ZILCH had no library? That a game written in ZIL >>> must include a parser and world model written from scratch? The only
thing you get for free is the lexer, which is built into the Z machine. >>> Parser yes, world model no! That's food for thought.

If you don’t have a world model, then you don’t have a parser, either. >> Not, at least, as the word “parser” is used in the IF world. A usable >> natural-language parser needs to understand the world model in order to
disambiguate. However, I gather this ZILF package includes a
foundational world model and parser that you can start from. That’s what >> the Implementors did; each new game after Zork I started with an old
game, which was then gutted and rebuilt for the new scenario.

Thanks

On Tuesday, March 14, 2017 at 3:23:43 AM UTC, John W. Kennedy wrote:

On 3/13/17 11:04 PM, Happy MAC XL wrote:

Hi all,

I know we can use TADS and INFORM7 etc but for kicks I really want to get into ZIL code and write some programs/test-games in code before attempting a much bigger project.

What is the knowledge of and usage of ZIL like these days? Could anyone out there give me some pointers please and i'll return the favour if possible!

Are any of the original ZIL coders still active or maybe amenable to helping a 'noob' out? :)

It hasn’t been such a long time that Imps can’t be found, but:

1. Do you have a ZIL compiler?
2. Do you have a TOPS-20 system capable of running it?
3. Are you aware that ZILCH had no library? That a game written in ZIL >>>> must include a parser and world model written from scratch? The only >>>> thing you get for free is the lexer, which is built into the Z machine.. >>>>
--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"

John W. Kennedy

"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"

--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"

John, would you be willing to consider mentoring my efforts on this project? Its going to be slow & steady, probably over one to two years.


--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 3/15/17 5:44 PM, Happy MAC XL wrote:

On Wednesday, March 15, 2017 at 3:04:38 PM UTC, John W. Kennedy wrote:

On 3/15/17 10:06 AM, Happy MAC XL wrote:

"If you don’t have a world model, then you don’t have a parser, either. >>> Not, at least, as the word “parser” is used in the IF world.. A usable >>> natural-language parser needs to understand the world model in order to
disambiguate."

I understand now, that makes sense. I'll need to do a fair bit of work on this in order to get the level of immersion and interaction that I want to achieve.

Are you still active in IF then? (apologies if you're on your 10th IF and the question seems almost offensive(!), again i'm late to the party on this and very much starting from a blank canvass).

I don’t seem to have the time to do it, but I have a strong interest
still. My wife and I beta-tested for Infocom from 1984 on, and I’ve been >> a programmer since 1965.

On Tuesday, March 14, 2017 at 5:56:56 PM UTC, John W. Kennedy wrote:

On 3/14/17 1:10 AM, Happy MAC XL wrote:

1. Do you have a ZIL compiler?
Yes. Re-implementation of the ZIL compiler:
https://bitbucket.org/jmcgrew/zilf/wiki/Home

2. Do you have a TOPS-20 system capable of running it?
The .z* game file should run on Z-Machine (at least that's my experience so far) so i'm not too sure I know where you're coming from on this? I've built a TOPS-10 emulation (PDP-10) system running on Raspberry Pi so if push comes to shove i'm sure

I could look at this. Can you explain a little more on this please? Thanks. >>>>

The ZILCH compiler itself didn’t run on the Z-machine; it ran on a DEC >>>> TOPS-20 system that Infocom always called “the mainframe”.. If you have a
new ZIL compiler, then you’ll need whatever that runs on. That’s
probably Windows, macOS, or Linux, so you should be OK.

3. Are you aware that ZILCH had no library? That a game written in ZIL >>>>> must include a parser and world model written from scratch? The only >>>>> thing you get for free is the lexer, which is built into the Z machine. >>>>> Parser yes, world model no! That's food for thought.

If you don’t have a world model, then you don’t have a parser, either. >>>> Not, at least, as the word “parser” is used in the IF world. A usable >>>> natural-language parser needs to understand the world model in order to >>>> disambiguate. However, I gather this ZILF package includes a
foundational world model and parser that you can start from. That’s what >>>> the Implementors did; each new game after Zork I started with an old
game, which was then gutted and rebuilt for the new scenario.

Thanks

On Tuesday, March 14, 2017 at 3:23:43 AM UTC, John W. Kennedy wrote: >>>>>> On 3/13/17 11:04 PM, Happy MAC XL wrote:

Hi all,

I know we can use TADS and INFORM7 etc but for kicks I really want to get into ZIL code and write some programs/test-games in code before attempting a much bigger project.

What is the knowledge of and usage of ZIL like these days? Could anyone out there give me some pointers please and i'll return the favour if possible!

Are any of the original ZIL coders still active or maybe amenable to helping a 'noob' out? :)

It hasn’t been such a long time that Imps can’t be found, but: >>>>>>
1. Do you have a ZIL compiler?
2. Do you have a TOPS-20 system capable of running it?
3. Are you aware that ZILCH had no library? That a game written in ZIL >>>>>> must include a parser and world model written from scratch? The only >>>>>> thing you get for free is the lexer, which is built into the Z machine.. >>>>>>
--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"

John W. Kennedy

"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"

--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"

John, would you be willing to consider mentoring my efforts on this project? Its going to be slow & steady, probably over one to two years.

There are people who can do much better. Although I am a programmer and
I know the history of Infocom and ZIL, I don’t know ZIL itself at all. (Before this exchange, I hadn’t even known that ZILF existed.)

You might want to go to intfiction.org. It’s almost entirely replaced
this newsgroup, anyway.

--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

島鉄雄です。
Happy MAC XL <happymacxl@gmail.com> in <34f4e058-6b39-4357-a971-c103df638ab6@googlegroups.com> writes:

Thanks John. So I probably should confess that i'm a Hobbyist and a relatively novice one at that; so whilst the desire is there the experience and knowledge isn't so i've got a steep learning curve here.

"The ZILCH compiler itself didn’t run on the Z-machine; it ran on a DEC TOPS-20 system that Infocom always called “the mainframe”."
I didn't know that, thanks for mentioning it, I think I can safely say that I won't be using ZILCH then ... :)

"If you have a new ZIL compiler, then you’ll need whatever that runs on. That’s
probably Windows, macOS, or Linux, so you should be OK. "
I have the one mentioned earlier yes so all being well this will do
the trick. I'll be doing the whole thing (likely including writing
the narrative) on a 32-Bit Linux OS. Actually you might be able to
help me, would you know offhand please whether from a compiling
perspective it would matter whether this was done on 32-Bit or 64-Bit?
Are they interchangeable in terms of the "compiled end product"?

I did manage to contact Bruce Daniels through LinkedIn and have a conversation running with him; just explaining what i'm hoping to achieve with all this.

Just my two cents.

I think I understand why you want to use ZIL these days. It's to get
that "old school" look and feel in the game, am I right? I tried to do
the same thing back in the days; my idea was to use old IF systems for
ZX Spectrum. However, soon enough I realized that there is just no way I
can fit modern game (plus the interpreter) in 64 or even 128 Kb of
memory. And it's just text, not even mentioning game logic. It also
helped me to understand why almost all text adventures back in 80's
were puzzle-oriented.

You might run into similar issues, when restictions of ZIL and Z-machine
won't allow you to do what you can do with modern systems. Authors in
90's had no choice, they had to live with it. I would suggest you to use
a modern system to develop and test the game, and when you are ready to release, you might try to find a programmer who can tweak the
interpreter to make it look like an "old school" game. I mean fullscreen
mode, old fonts, old color palette, maybe even TV interlaced scan
lines. :) Or you can do it yourself if you're a programmer. It's not
that hard technically, just no one done it before.

:)

On Tuesday, March 14, 2017 at 5:56:56 PM UTC, John W. Kennedy wrote:

On 3/14/17 1:10 AM, Happy MAC XL wrote:

1. Do you have a ZIL compiler?
Yes. Re-implementation of the ZIL compiler:
https://bitbucket.org/jmcgrew/zilf/wiki/Home

2. Do you have a TOPS-20 system capable of running it?
The .z* game file should run on Z-Machine (at least that's my
experience so far) so i'm not too sure I know where you're coming
from on this? I've built a TOPS-10 emulation (PDP-10) system
running on Raspberry Pi so if push comes to shove i'm sure I could
look at this. Can you explain a little more on this please?
Thanks.

The ZILCH compiler itself didn’t run on the Z-machine; it ran on a DEC
TOPS-20 system that Infocom always called “the mainframe”. If you have a >> new ZIL compiler, then you’ll need whatever that runs on. That’s
probably Windows, macOS, or Linux, so you should be OK.

3. Are you aware that ZILCH had no library? That a game written in ZIL
must include a parser and world model written from scratch? The only
thing you get for free is the lexer, which is built into the Z machine.
Parser yes, world model no! That's food for thought.

If you don’t have a world model, then you don’t have a parser, either. >> Not, at least, as the word “parser” is used in the IF world. A usable
natural-language parser needs to understand the world model in order to
disambiguate. However, I gather this ZILF package includes a
foundational world model and parser that you can start from. That’s what >> the Implementors did; each new game after Zork I started with an old
game, which was then gutted and rebuilt for the new scenario.

Thanks

On Tuesday, March 14, 2017 at 3:23:43 AM UTC, John W. Kennedy wrote:

On 3/13/17 11:04 PM, Happy MAC XL wrote:

Hi all,

I know we can use TADS and INFORM7 etc but for kicks I really want to get into ZIL code and write some programs/test-games in code before attempting a much bigger project.

What is the knowledge of and usage of ZIL like these days? Could anyone out there give me some pointers please and i'll return the favour if possible!

Are any of the original ZIL coders still active or maybe amenable to helping a 'noob' out? :)

It hasn’t been such a long time that Imps can’t be found, but:

1. Do you have a ZIL compiler?
2. Do you have a TOPS-20 system capable of running it?
3. Are you aware that ZILCH had no library? That a game written in ZIL
must include a parser and world model written from scratch? The only
thing you get for free is the lexer, which is built into the Z machine. >> >>
--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"

--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"

--
41号

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 12:21:51 AM UTC+1, 島鉄雄 wrote:

島鉄雄です。
Happy MAC XL <happymacxl@gmail.com> in <34f4e058-6b39-4357-a971-c103df638ab6@googlegroups.com> writes:

Thanks John. So I probably should confess that i'm a Hobbyist and a relatively novice one at that; so whilst the desire is there the experience and knowledge isn't so i've got a steep learning curve here.

"The ZILCH compiler itself didn’t run on the Z-machine; it ran on a DEC TOPS-20 system that Infocom always called “the mainframe”."
I didn't know that, thanks for mentioning it, I think I can safely say that I won't be using ZILCH then ... :)

"If you have a new ZIL compiler, then you’ll need whatever that runs on. That’s
probably Windows, macOS, or Linux, so you should be OK. "
I have the one mentioned earlier yes so all being well this will do
the trick. I'll be doing the whole thing (likely including writing
the narrative) on a 32-Bit Linux OS. Actually you might be able to
help me, would you know offhand please whether from a compiling
perspective it would matter whether this was done on 32-Bit or 64-Bit?
Are they interchangeable in terms of the "compiled end product"?

I did manage to contact Bruce Daniels through LinkedIn and have a conversation running with him; just explaining what i'm hoping to achieve with all this.

Just my two cents.

I think I understand why you want to use ZIL these days. It's to get
that "old school" look and feel in the game, am I right? I tried to do
the same thing back in the days; my idea was to use old IF systems for
ZX Spectrum. However, soon enough I realized that there is just no way I
can fit modern game (plus the interpreter) in 64 or even 128 Kb of
memory. And it's just text, not even mentioning game logic. It also
helped me to understand why almost all text adventures back in 80's
were puzzle-oriented.

You might run into similar issues, when restictions of ZIL and Z-machine won't allow you to do what you can do with modern systems. Authors in
90's had no choice, they had to live with it. I would suggest you to use
a modern system to develop and test the game, and when you are ready to release, you might try to find a programmer who can tweak the
interpreter to make it look like an "old school" game. I mean fullscreen mode, old fonts, old color palette, maybe even TV interlaced scan
lines. :) Or you can do it yourself if you're a programmer. It's not
that hard technically, just no one done it before.

:)

On Tuesday, March 14, 2017 at 5:56:56 PM UTC, John W. Kennedy wrote:

On 3/14/17 1:10 AM, Happy MAC XL wrote:

1. Do you have a ZIL compiler?
Yes. Re-implementation of the ZIL compiler:
https://bitbucket.org/jmcgrew/zilf/wiki/Home

2. Do you have a TOPS-20 system capable of running it?
The .z* game file should run on Z-Machine (at least that's my
experience so far) so i'm not too sure I know where you're coming
from on this? I've built a TOPS-10 emulation (PDP-10) system
running on Raspberry Pi so if push comes to shove i'm sure I could
look at this. Can you explain a little more on this please?
Thanks.

The ZILCH compiler itself didn’t run on the Z-machine; it ran on a DEC >> TOPS-20 system that Infocom always called “the mainframe”. If you have a
new ZIL compiler, then you’ll need whatever that runs on. That’s
probably Windows, macOS, or Linux, so you should be OK.

3. Are you aware that ZILCH had no library? That a game written in ZIL >> > must include a parser and world model written from scratch? The only
thing you get for free is the lexer, which is built into the Z machine. >> > Parser yes, world model no! That's food for thought.

If you don’t have a world model, then you don’t have a parser, either.
Not, at least, as the word “parser” is used in the IF world. A usable >> natural-language parser needs to understand the world model in order to >> disambiguate. However, I gather this ZILF package includes a
foundational world model and parser that you can start from. That’s what
the Implementors did; each new game after Zork I started with an old
game, which was then gutted and rebuilt for the new scenario.

Thanks

On Tuesday, March 14, 2017 at 3:23:43 AM UTC, John W. Kennedy wrote:

On 3/13/17 11:04 PM, Happy MAC XL wrote:

Hi all,

I know we can use TADS and INFORM7 etc but for kicks I really want to get into ZIL code and write some programs/test-games in code before attempting a much bigger project.

What is the knowledge of and usage of ZIL like these days? Could anyone out there give me some pointers please and i'll return the favour if possible!

Are any of the original ZIL coders still active or maybe amenable to helping a 'noob' out? :)

It hasn’t been such a long time that Imps can’t be found, but:

1. Do you have a ZIL compiler?
2. Do you have a TOPS-20 system capable of running it?
3. Are you aware that ZILCH had no library? That a game written in ZIL >> >> must include a parser and world model written from scratch? The only
thing you get for free is the lexer, which is built into the Z machine. >> >>
--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"

--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"

--
41号

Hey,

Thanks for the reply! You're pretty much right with the reason for wanting to use ZIL although there is one more reason which is a level deeper than just the aeshetics; the project itself is a homage to computer history from the 60s to the 80s. ZIL was
born out of MUDDLE (MDL) which was an alternative to LISP, that's quite a lineage :) To do the project in ZIL would be technically a headache i'm sure but would be something that connects it directly with the very first systems 'back in the day'.

:)

HMX

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)