• PPB: Always Marry an April Girl / Ogden Nash

    From George J. Dance@21:1/5 to All on Sat Apr 30 15:34:26 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...] https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Zod@21:1/5 to George J. Dance on Sat Apr 30 19:54:45 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    George J. Dance wrote:

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...] https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html

    Love ole Ogden Nash....!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From General-Zod@21:1/5 to George J. Dance on Sat Apr 30 21:13:40 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    George J. Dance wrote:

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...] https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html

    Cool, second read

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From W.Dockery@21:1/5 to General-Zod on Mon May 2 22:56:19 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    General-Zod wrote:
    George J. Dance wrote:

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...]
    https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html

    Cool, second read


    Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From George J. Dance@21:1/5 to General-Zod on Tue May 3 18:04:35 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    On 2022-04-30 5:13 p.m., General-Zod wrote:
    George J. Dance wrote:

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...]
    https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html


    Cool, second read


    I am glad you're a fan of Nash, because this is a big moment. You see
    Nash died in 1971, meaning his poems went into the public domain last
    Jan. 1. Accordingly, this is his first time on the blog, and perhaps the
    first time he's been published legally in years.

    His poetry is all over the web, but mainly on sites in the U.S., where
    it will still be copyrighted for years; but the publisher hasn't kept
    his books in print, so it's unlikely to challenge those bootleg copies.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From George J. Dance@21:1/5 to W.Dockery on Tue May 3 18:14:31 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    On 2022-05-02 6:56 p.m., W.Dockery wrote:
    General-Zod wrote:
    George J. Dance wrote:

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...]
    https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html


    Cool, second read


    Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.

    Oh, yeah. As an example:I remember one textbook I picked up in the last
    half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to verse.
    First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it pontificated
    that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one example of
    rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.

    Be that as it may, I'm glad to have his poetry on the blog. This debut
    is a bit out of the ordinary -- it reads like a love poem he dashed off
    to his wife, whether he did or whether he designed it that way (probably
    the latter, since his wife was born in March).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From W.Dockery@21:1/5 to George J. Dance on Wed May 4 05:53:05 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    George J. Dance wrote:

    On 2022-05-02 6:56 p.m., W.Dockery wrote:
    General-Zod wrote:
    George J. Dance wrote:

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...]
    https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html


    Cool, second read


    Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.

    Oh, yeah. As an example:I remember one textbook I picked up in the last
    half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to verse.
    First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it pontificated
    that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one example of
    rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.

    Be that as it may, I'm glad to have his poetry on the blog. This debut
    is a bit out of the ordinary -- it reads like a love poem he dashed off
    to his wife, whether he did or whether he designed it that way (probably
    the latter, since his wife was born in March).


    As you know, much of my early years of poetry writing and study I was taught to shun rhymes, in popular culture and personal school studies


    My teacher and mentor Dan Barfield, as you know, famously told our class:

    "Rhyme is a crutch."

    I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these later years.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From George J. Dance@21:1/5 to W.Dockery on Wed May 4 13:06:40 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    On 2022-05-04 1:53 a.m., W.Dockery wrote:
    George J. Dance wrote:

    On 2022-05-02 6:56 p.m., W.Dockery wrote:
    General-Zod wrote:
    George J. Dance wrote:

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...]
    https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html


    Cool, second read


    Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.

    Oh, yeah. As an example:I remember one textbook I picked up in the
    last half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to
    verse. First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it
    pontificated that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one
    example of rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.

    Be that as it may, I'm glad to have his poetry on the blog. This debut
    is a bit out of the ordinary -- it reads like a love poem he dashed
    off to his wife, whether he did or whether he designed it that way
    (probably the latter, since his wife was born in March).


    As you know, much of my early years of poetry writing and study I was
    taught to shun rhymes, in popular culture and personal school studies


    My teacher and mentor Dan Barfield, as you know, famously told our class:

    "Rhyme is a crutch."

    That would be late 70s, in high school back when and where rhyme was
    most out of fashion. I encountered the same prejudice in my friends who
    wrote poetry; all of them shunned rhyme, and only liked the poems in
    which I did the same.

    But regardless of Dan's views on rhyme, I'd interpret his maxim more charitably, not as saying "Don't use rhyme", but as Don't rely on rhyme;
    don't try to use it to support work that isn't supported otherwise.

    If I were teaching poetics, I'd advise new students to start by writing
    open form, until they'd learned how to write poems - how to arrange the
    words to tell a story, or present a scene, or even construct an
    argument, to give the reader an epiphany.

    Then I'd instruct them on meter, rhyme, and finally forms. But I'd make
    it clear that in their poems they'd have to use those in addition to all
    that other stuff they learned earlier, not as a substitute (or "crutch)
    for them.


    I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these later years.

    I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
    the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
    influence on your doing that.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Zod@21:1/5 to George J. Dance on Wed May 4 20:36:39 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    George J. Dance wrote:

    On 2022-05-04 1:53 a.m., W.Dockery wrote:
    George J. Dance wrote:

    On 2022-05-02 6:56 p.m., W.Dockery wrote:
    General-Zod wrote:
    George J. Dance wrote:

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...]
    https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html


    Cool, second read


    Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.

    Oh, yeah. As an example:I remember one textbook I picked up in the
    last half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to
    verse. First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it
    pontificated that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one
    example of rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.

    Be that as it may, I'm glad to have his poetry on the blog. This debut
    is a bit out of the ordinary -- it reads like a love poem he dashed
    off to his wife, whether he did or whether he designed it that way
    (probably the latter, since his wife was born in March).


    As you know, much of my early years of poetry writing and study I was
    taught to shun rhymes, in popular culture and personal school studies


    My teacher and mentor Dan Barfield, as you know, famously told our class:

    "Rhyme is a crutch."

    That would be late 70s, in high school back when and where rhyme was
    most out of fashion. I encountered the same prejudice in my friends who
    wrote poetry; all of them shunned rhyme, and only liked the poems in
    which I did the same.

    But regardless of Dan's views on rhyme, I'd interpret his maxim more charitably, not as saying "Don't use rhyme", but as Don't rely on rhyme; don't try to use it to support work that isn't supported otherwise.

    If I were teaching poetics, I'd advise new students to start by writing
    open form, until they'd learned how to write poems - how to arrange the
    words to tell a story, or present a scene, or even construct an
    argument, to give the reader an epiphany.

    Then I'd instruct them on meter, rhyme, and finally forms. But I'd make
    it clear that in their poems they'd have to use those in addition to all
    that other stuff they learned earlier, not as a substitute (or "crutch)
    for them.


    I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these
    later years.

    I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
    the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
    influence on your doing that.

    I think perhaps the advemnt of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring on the changes as well.....

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From W-Dockery@21:1/5 to Zod on Thu May 5 02:44:01 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    Zod wrote:

    George J. Dance wrote:

    On 2022-05-04 1:53 a.m., W.Dockery wrote:
    George J. Dance wrote:

    On 2022-05-02 6:56 p.m., W.Dockery wrote:
    General-Zod wrote:
    George J. Dance wrote:

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...]
    https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html


    Cool, second read


    Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.

    Oh, yeah. As an example:I remember one textbook I picked up in the
    last half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to
    verse. First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it
    pontificated that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one >>>> example of rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.

    Be that as it may, I'm glad to have his poetry on the blog. This debut >>>> is a bit out of the ordinary -- it reads like a love poem he dashed
    off to his wife, whether he did or whether he designed it that way
    (probably the latter, since his wife was born in March).


    As you know, much of my early years of poetry writing and study I was
    taught to shun rhymes, in popular culture and personal school studies


    My teacher and mentor Dan Barfield, as you know, famously told our class: >>>
    "Rhyme is a crutch."

    That would be late 70s, in high school back when and where rhyme was
    most out of fashion. I encountered the same prejudice in my friends who
    wrote poetry; all of them shunned rhyme, and only liked the poems in
    which I did the same.

    But regardless of Dan's views on rhyme, I'd interpret his maxim more
    charitably, not as saying "Don't use rhyme", but as Don't rely on rhyme;
    don't try to use it to support work that isn't supported otherwise.

    If I were teaching poetics, I'd advise new students to start by writing
    open form, until they'd learned how to write poems - how to arrange the
    words to tell a story, or present a scene, or even construct an
    argument, to give the reader an epiphany.

    Then I'd instruct them on meter, rhyme, and finally forms. But I'd make
    it clear that in their poems they'd have to use those in addition to all
    that other stuff they learned earlier, not as a substitute (or "crutch)
    for them.


    I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these >>> later years.

    I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
    the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
    influence on your doing that.

    I think perhaps the advemnt of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring on the changes as well.....

    Yes, the poetry slam style of poetry has been very influential.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From W-Dockery@21:1/5 to Michael Pendragon on Thu May 5 13:48:25 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    Michael Pendragon wrote:

    On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 4:40:13 PM UTC, George J. Dance wrote:

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...]

    https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html



    The modern poetry movement is over a hundred years old.


    No shit, Lancelot Link.

    🙂

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From W.Dockery@21:1/5 to Michael Pendragon on Thu May 5 18:58:56 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    Michael Pendragon wrote:

    On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 9:50:14 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
    Michael Pendragon wrote:
    George J. Dance wrote:

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...]

    https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html


    Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.

    Oh, yeah. As an example:I remember one textbook I picked up in the last >>> half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to verse. >>> First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it pontificated
    that rhyme was good only for humorous effect;

    What an appallingly horrid little work that must have been.

    And a textbook, yet (implying that it was actually taught in classrooms). >>
    One need look no farther to understand why poetry has become a dead language and an obsolete art form.

    And, yes -- I would consign that book to be burned along with
    Your burn list includes some of the best poets:

    Allen Ginsberg
    Charles Bukowski
    Jack Kerouac

    I don't see any poets on that list

    Thus, your ignorance of certain forms of poetry is confirmed.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From W.Dockery@21:1/5 to Michael Pendragon on Thu May 5 20:03:37 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    Michael Pendragon wrote:

    On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 3:00:15 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
    Michael Pendragon wrote:

    On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 9:50:14 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
    Michael Pendragon wrote:
    George J. Dance wrote:

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...]

    https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html


    Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.

    Oh, yeah. As an example:I remember one textbook I picked up in the last
    half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to verse. >> > >>> First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it pontificated >> > >>> that rhyme was good only for humorous effect;

    What an appallingly horrid little work that must have been.

    And a textbook, yet (implying that it was actually taught in classrooms).

    One need look no farther to understand why poetry has become a dead language and an obsolete art form.

    And, yes -- I would consign that book to be burned along with
    Your burn list includes some of the best poets:

    Allen Ginsberg
    Charles Bukowski
    Jack Kerouac

    I don't see any poets on that list
    Thus, your ignorance of certain forms of poetry is confirmed.

    I'm familiar with all of their writings

    You've read, what, one paragraph of Jack Kerouac?

    That's not very familiar.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From W-Dockery@21:1/5 to George J. Dance on Fri May 6 13:22:35 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    George J. Dance wrote:

    On 2022-05-04 11:58 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:

    This is something I enjoyed reading.


    I still remember the first time I was confronted with "modern" poetry (long before I ever dreamed of penning any poetry of my own), and my inability to understand how it was supposed to be the same literary form as the poetry I'd known and loved since
    early childhood.

    Poetry had always been defined as having rhyme and meter.

    Not "always". Older poetry "Greek" to "Anglo-Saxon" had meter (in its
    own fashion) but not rhyme. Rhyme (and our concept of meter) began in
    Italy, and while English poets had been using it since Chaucer, it was
    still quite controversial in the early Tudor period. So you can say it's
    been around since "the beginning"

    Blank verse, which kept only meter, was a sub-division of poetry.

    But modern verse, which eliminates both the rhyme and the meter no longer has either of the defining characteristics of poetry.

    This does not in any way imply that modern verse is inferior (or superior) to poetry. It is saying that they are two different literary forms.


    Unfortunately, by appropriating the name of "poetry" for itself, modern verse rendered traditional poetry obsolete.


    The concept that's been lost isn't that of "poetry", but of "verse" -- literature written in meter. As evidence, here's the traditional concept
    of verse, from PPP:
    "A verse is formally a line of poetry written in meter. However, the
    word has come to mean poetry in general (or sometimes even non-poetry) written in lines of a regular metrical pattern."

    And here's the public understanding of "verse", from Wikipedia:
    "In the countable sense, a verse is formally a single metrical line in a poetic composition. However, verse has come to represent any division or grouping of words in a poetic composition, with groupings traditionally having been referred to as stanzas."

    The two different literary forms are poetry in verse (or "verse") and
    poetry without verse ("open form"). But there's no line between them,
    no; a poet can use both, even in the same poem. So there's a lot of
    hybrid poetry as well. (The paradigm example is Eliot, who used rhyme
    and meter, but not use in the normal way, mixing up his meters
    willy-nilly and throwing in a lot of unrhymed lines in amongst the
    rhymed ones.)

    If you look at any of the poetry journals at your library, you'll find that traditional (rhymed-metered) verse is nowhere to be found.

    Modern and traditional verse should have existed side-by-side, as related forms of literature -- as they do in "A Year of Sundays." However, in the academic and literary world, the former has entirely supplanted the latter.

    That readers still appreciate traditional can be determined by the fact that traditional poetry collections by Donne, Shakespeare, Keats, Poe, et al., are continuously in print. Yet the academic prejudice for modern verse has blocked any new
    traditional poetry from being published -- effectively killing it as a literary form.


    I think that has definitely changed, and again that's the internet. For
    a while after WWII academics did successfully serve as gatekeepers: late modernist poetry was nothing but 100 or so small journals, put out and
    read by perhaps 10,000 people. But again, as I'd say, the internet
    changed everything. Not only do today's poets have access to a vast
    audience online; they even have self-publication, with the result that
    the academics don't even have a monopoly in their totemic symbols, the physical books and magazines.

    When I talk of metaphorically burning books (and/or poets) I am not speaking out of jealousy, but out of a desire to bring about a literary form of enantiodromia wherein traditional verse is re-established as poetry and modern verse is removed to its
    proper categorization of "poetic prose."

    Ideally, I would like both forms to co-exist -- but until such a time comes about, I shall continue to advocate the "burning" of texts, journals, and poetic forms that prevent traditional verse from flourishing.


    No form of literature prevents another from flourishing. Elites (or
    snobs) in one form may actively try to do so (and I think that little
    poetics text I started this off with is a good example of that snobbery
    and nothing but), but all that's needed is for the world to stop paying attention to that. And that's what's happened to the erstwhile academic gatekeepers over the last quarter-century.

    Well put, George.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From W.Dockery@21:1/5 to George J. Dance on Fri May 6 16:35:26 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    George J. Dance wrote:

    On 2022-05-04 1:53 a.m., Will Dockery wrote:
    George J. Dance wrote:

    On 2022-05-02 6:56 p.m., Will Dockery wrote:
    General-Zod wrote:
    George J. Dance wrote:

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...]
    https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html


    Cool, second read


    Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.

    Oh, yeah. As an example: I remember one textbook I picked up in the
    last half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to
    verse. First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it
    pontificated that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one
    example of rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.

    Be that as it may, I'm glad to have his poetry on the blog. This debut
    is a bit out of the ordinary -- it reads like a love poem he dashed
    off to his wife, whether he did or whether he designed it that way
    (probably the latter, since his wife was born in March).


    As you know, much of my early years of poetry writing and study I was
    taught to shun rhymes, in popular culture and personal school studies


    My teacher and mentor Dan Barfield, as you know, famously told our class:

    "Rhyme is a crutch."

    That would be late 70s, in high school back when and where rhyme was
    most out of fashion. I encountered the same prejudice in my friends who
    wrote poetry; all of them shunned rhyme, and only liked the poems in
    which I did the same.

    But regardless of Dan's views on rhyme, I'd interpret his maxim more charitably, not as saying "Don't use rhyme", but as Don't rely on rhyme; don't try to use it to support work that isn't supported otherwise.

    If I were teaching poetics, I'd advise new students to start by writing
    open form, until they'd learned how to write poems - how to arrange the
    words to tell a story, or present a scene, or even construct an
    argument, to give the reader an epiphany.

    Then I'd instruct them on meter, rhyme, and finally forms. But I'd make
    it clear that in their poems they'd have to use those in addition to all
    that other stuff they learned earlier, not as a substitute (or "crutch)
    for them.


    I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these
    later years.

    I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
    the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
    influence on your doing that.


    I once credited Tupac Shakur with bringing me around to rhyming poetry, and the stand up delivery at poetry readings, which I began performing at weekly, sometimes daily, in 1995.

    I rode around town one night with my friend Terry Nell, listening to a cassette tape of Tupac Shakur, studying his rhyme and delivery, which was state of the art at the time:

    https://allpoetry.com/Tupac-Shakur

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From General-Zod@21:1/5 to Will Dockery on Fri May 6 16:48:36 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    Will Dockery wrote:

    George J. Dance wrote:

    On 2022-05-04 1:53 a.m., Will Dockery wrote:
    George J. Dance wrote:

    On 2022-05-02 6:56 p.m., Will Dockery wrote:
    General-Zod wrote:
    George J. Dance wrote:

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...]
    https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html


    Cool, second read


    Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.

    Oh, yeah. As an example: I remember one textbook I picked up in the
    last half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to
    verse. First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it
    pontificated that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one >>>> example of rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.

    Be that as it may, I'm glad to have his poetry on the blog. This debut >>>> is a bit out of the ordinary -- it reads like a love poem he dashed
    off to his wife, whether he did or whether he designed it that way
    (probably the latter, since his wife was born in March).


    As you know, much of my early years of poetry writing and study I was
    taught to shun rhymes, in popular culture and personal school studies


    My teacher and mentor Dan Barfield, as you know, famously told our class: >>>
    "Rhyme is a crutch."

    That would be late 70s, in high school back when and where rhyme was
    most out of fashion. I encountered the same prejudice in my friends who
    wrote poetry; all of them shunned rhyme, and only liked the poems in
    which I did the same.

    But regardless of Dan's views on rhyme, I'd interpret his maxim more
    charitably, not as saying "Don't use rhyme", but as Don't rely on rhyme;
    don't try to use it to support work that isn't supported otherwise.

    If I were teaching poetics, I'd advise new students to start by writing
    open form, until they'd learned how to write poems - how to arrange the
    words to tell a story, or present a scene, or even construct an
    argument, to give the reader an epiphany.

    Then I'd instruct them on meter, rhyme, and finally forms. But I'd make
    it clear that in their poems they'd have to use those in addition to all
    that other stuff they learned earlier, not as a substitute (or "crutch)
    for them.


    I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these >>> later years.

    I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
    the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
    influence on your doing that.


    I once credited Tupac Shakur with bringing me around to rhyming poetry, and the stand up delivery at poetry readings, which I began performing at weekly, sometimes daily, in 1995.

    I rode around town one night with my friend Terry Nell, listening to a cassette tape of Tupac Shakur, studying his rhyme and delivery, which was state of the art at the time:

    https://allpoetry.com/Tupac-Shakur

    You are on the right path, Doc....

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From General-Zod@21:1/5 to George J. Dance on Fri May 6 18:08:02 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    George J. Dance wrote:

    On 2022-05-04 11:58 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:

    This is something I enjoyed reading.


    I still remember the first time I was confronted with "modern" poetry (long before I ever dreamed of penning any poetry of my own), and my inability to understand how it was supposed to be the same literary form as the poetry I'd known and loved since
    early childhood.

    Poetry had always been defined as having rhyme and meter.

    Not "always". Older poetry "Greek" to "Anglo-Saxon" had meter (in its
    own fashion) but not rhyme. Rhyme (and our concept of meter) began in
    Italy, and while English poets had been using it since Chaucer, it was
    still quite controversial in the early Tudor period. So you can say it's
    been around since "the beginning"

    Blank verse, which kept only meter, was a sub-division of poetry.

    But modern verse, which eliminates both the rhyme and the meter no longer has either of the defining characteristics of poetry.

    This does not in any way imply that modern verse is inferior (or superior) to poetry. It is saying that they are two different literary forms.


    Unfortunately, by appropriating the name of "poetry" for itself, modern verse rendered traditional poetry obsolete.


    The concept that's been lost isn't that of "poetry", but of "verse" -- literature written in meter. As evidence, here's the traditional concept
    of verse, from PPP:
    "A verse is formally a line of poetry written in meter. However, the
    word has come to mean poetry in general (or sometimes even non-poetry) written in lines of a regular metrical pattern."

    And here's the public understanding of "verse", from Wikipedia:
    "In the countable sense, a verse is formally a single metrical line in a poetic composition. However, verse has come to represent any division or grouping of words in a poetic composition, with groupings traditionally having been referred to as stanzas."

    The two different literary forms are poetry in verse (or "verse") and
    poetry without verse ("open form"). But there's no line between them,
    no; a poet can use both, even in the same poem. So there's a lot of
    hybrid poetry as well. (The paradigm example is Eliot, who used rhyme
    and meter, but not use in the normal way, mixing up his meters
    willy-nilly and throwing in a lot of unrhymed lines in amongst the
    rhymed ones.)

    If you look at any of the poetry journals at your library, you'll find that traditional (rhymed-metered) verse is nowhere to be found.

    Modern and traditional verse should have existed side-by-side, as related forms of literature -- as they do in "A Year of Sundays." However, in the academic and literary world, the former has entirely supplanted the latter.

    That readers still appreciate traditional can be determined by the fact that traditional poetry collections by Donne, Shakespeare, Keats, Poe, et al., are continuously in print. Yet the academic prejudice for modern verse has blocked any new
    traditional poetry from being published -- effectively killing it as a literary form.


    I think that has definitely changed, and again that's the internet. For
    a while after WWII academics did successfully serve as gatekeepers: late modernist poetry was nothing but 100 or so small journals, put out and
    read by perhaps 10,000 people. But again, as I'd say, the internet
    changed everything. Not only do today's poets have access to a vast
    audience online; they even have self-publication, with the result that
    the academics don't even have a monopoly in their totemic symbols, the physical books and magazines.

    When I talk of metaphorically burning books (and/or poets) I am not speaking out of jealousy, but out of a desire to bring about a literary form of enantiodromia wherein traditional verse is re-established as poetry and modern verse is removed to its
    proper categorization of "poetic prose."

    Ideally, I would like both forms to co-exist -- but until such a time comes about, I shall continue to advocate the "burning" of texts, journals, and poetic forms that prevent traditional verse from flourishing.


    No form of literature prevents another from flourishing. Elites (or
    snobs) in one form may actively try to do so (and I think that little
    poetics text I started this off with is a good example of that snobbery
    and nothing but), but all that's needed is for the world to stop paying attention to that. And that's what's happened to the erstwhile academic gatekeepers over the last quarter-century.

    Well said, Mr. GD....!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From W.Dockery@21:1/5 to Coco DeSockmonkey on Fri May 6 19:32:45 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:

    On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 2:32:29 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
    On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 2:30:43 PM UTC-4, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote: >> > > > > George J. Dance wrote:
    On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:48:57 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:

    Were you asleep in the 1990s-2000s, Pendragon?

    Love it or hate it, the hip-hop and rap influence on the current poetry scene is real.

    Look it up.

    We were discussing the change from traditional to modern poetry, Donkey, and the subsequent redefinition of poetry (abandonment of rhymed-metered verse).

    No, we'd moved on from that and were talking about the rediscovery of
    rhyme (beginning in the 1980s).
    <q>

    I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these
    later years.

    I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
    the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big >> > > > > > > influence on your doing that.
    I think perhaps the [advent] of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring
    on the changes as well.....
    </q>
    Will, of course, was talking about himself and his own discovery of
    rhyme. Zod was pointing out that the former didn't happen in a vacuum;
    Will's pesonal evolution was happening in, and reflective of, a general
    popular trend in poetry post-1980.

    1) Hip-hop and rap did not appear until long after the change had taken place.
    2) Hip-hop and rap rely heavily on rhyme and meter, and would represent a popular movement to restore traditional poetry.

    Exactly what Zod was saying. The hip-hop movement didn't occur in a
    vacuum, though; there were other factors behind the rediscovery of >> > > > > > rhyme. The most important, academically, was the rise of New Formalism,
    which was a movement of poetics as much as poetry.
    But the biggest influence, I'd say, was as always the internet. Suddenly
    (over 25 or so years, or just the blink of an eye in terms of the >> > > > > > tradition), public domain poetry went from a few dusty books in
    second-hand shelves, that hardly anyone even noticed much less bought,
    to being seen and read by millions.
    You and your Stink are obviously unaware of both the history of modern poetry and of the history of poetry in general.

    No, that looks like a case of misunderstanding.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poetry_slam

    Poetry slam
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    A poetry slam is a competitive arts event in which poets perform spoken word poetry before a live audience and a panel of judges. Culturally, poetry slams are a break from the past image of poetry as an elitist or rigid artform. While formats
    can vary, slams are often loud and lively, with audience participation, cheering and dramatic delivery. Hip-hop music and urban culture are strong influences, and backgrounds of participants tend to be diverse.[citation needed]

    Poetry slams began in Chicago in 1984, with the first slam competition designed to move poetry recitals from academia to a popular audience. American poet Marc Smith, believing the poetry scene at the time was "too structured and stuffy",
    began experimenting by attending open microphone poetry readings, and then turning them into slams by introducing the element of competition.[1]

    The performances at a poetry slam are judged as much on enthusiasm and style as content, and poets may compete as individuals or in teams. The judging is often handled by a panel of judges, typically five, who are usually selected from the
    audience. Sometimes the poets are judged by audience response

    Poem
    Poetry slams can feature a broad range of voices, styles, cultural traditions, and approaches to writing and performance. The originator of performance poetry, Hedwig Gorski, credits slam poetry for carrying on the poetics of ancient oral
    poetry designed to grab attention in barrooms and public squares.[19]

    Some poets are closely associated with the vocal delivery style found in hip-hop music and draw heavily on the tradition of dub poetry, a rhythmic and politicized genre belonging to black and particularly West Indian culture. Others employ an
    unrhyming narrative formula. Some use traditional theatrical devices including shifting voices and tones, while others may recite an entire poem in ironic monotone. Some poets use nothing but their words to deliver a poem, while others stretch the
    boundaries of the format, tap-dancing or beatboxing or using highly choreographed movements.

    What is a dominant / successful style one year may not be passed to the next. Cristin O'Keefe Aptowicz, slam poet and author of Words In Your Face: A Guided Tour Through Twenty Years of the New York City Poetry Slam, was quoted in an interview
    on the Best American Poetry blog as saying:

    One of the more interesting end products (to me, at least) of this constant shifting is that poets in the slam always worry that something—a style, a project, a poet—will become so dominant that it will kill the scene, but it never does.
    Ranting hipsters, freestyle rappers, bohemian drifters, proto-comedians, mystical shamans and gothy punks have all had their time at the top of the slam food chain, but in the end, something different always comes along and challenges the poets to try
    something new.[20]


    Bob Holman
    One of the goals of a poetry slam is to challenge the authority of anyone who claims absolute authority over literary value. No poet is beyond critique, as everyone is dependent upon the goodwill of the audience. Since only the poets with the
    best cumulative scores advance to the final round of the night, the structure assures that the audience gets to choose from whom they will hear more poetry. Audience members furthermore become part of each poem's presence, thus breaking down the barriers
    between poet/performer, critic, and audience.

    Bob Holman, a poetry activist and former slammaster of the Nuyorican Poets Cafe, once called the movement "the democratization of verse".[21] In 2005, Holman was also quoted as saying: "The spoken word revolution is led a lot by women and by
    poets of color. It gives a depth to the nation's dialogue that you don't hear on the floor of Congress. I want a floor of Congress to look more like a National Poetry Slam. That would make me happy

    History
    American poet Marc Smith is credited with starting the poetry slam at the Get Me High Lounge in Chicago in November 1984. In July 1986, the original slam moved to its permanent home, the Green Mill Jazz Club.[3][4] In 1987 the Ann Arbor Poetry
    Slam was founded by Vince Keuter and eventually made its home at the Heidelberg (moving later 2010, 2013, and 2015 to its new home at Espresso Royale). In August 1988, the first poetry slam held in New York City was hosted by Bob Holman at the Nuyorican
    Poets Cafe.[5] In 1990, the first National Poetry Slam took place at Fort Mason, San Francisco. This slam included teams from Chicago and San Francisco, and an individual poet from New York.[6] Soon afterward, poetry slam increased popularity allowed
    some poets to make full-time careers in performance and competition, touring the United States and eventually the world.[5]

    In 1999, National Poetry Slam, held in major cities each year, was in Chicago. The event was covered nationally by The New York Times and 60 Minutes (CBS). 60 Minutes taped a 20 segment on slam poetry with live poetry scenes at Chopin Theatre.
    [7]

    In 2001, the grounding of aircraft following the September 11 attacks left a number of performers stranded in cities they had been performing in.[5] After the attacks, a new wave of poetry slam started within San Francisco.[citation needed]

    As of 2017, the National Poetry Slam featured 72 certified teams, culminating in five days of competition.[8]

    Today, there are poetry slam competitions in a number of countries around the globe.

    Poetry Slam, Inc. sanctions three major annual poetry competitions (for poets 18+) on a national and international scale: the National Poetry Slam (NPS), the individual World Poetry Slam (iWPS), and the Women of the World Poetry Slam (WoWPS).

    ****************************************************
    Why do you think that posting marginally-related
    It is more than just marginally, it describes one of the movements that brought poetry back to the rhyming roots, Voodoo Boy.....

    You do not know recent poetry history very well, now is your chance to learn.....
    1) The alleged resurgence of rhymed-metered poetry was not a part of the discussion you had responded to; and
    2) the alleged resurgence of rhymed-metered poetry has yet to have been established.
    Hip hop culture has achieved both.

    Prove it

    You really have been asleep for the last 30 years, haven't you?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From General-Zod@21:1/5 to W.Dockery on Fri May 6 19:58:30 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    W.Dockery wrote:

    George J. Dance wrote:

    On 2022-05-04 1:53 a.m., Will Dockery wrote:
    George J. Dance wrote:

    On 2022-05-02 6:56 p.m., Will Dockery wrote:
    General-Zod wrote:
    George J. Dance wrote:

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...]
    https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html


    Cool, second read


    Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.

    Oh, yeah. As an example: I remember one textbook I picked up in the
    last half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to
    verse. First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it
    pontificated that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one >>>> example of rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.

    Be that as it may, I'm glad to have his poetry on the blog. This debut >>>> is a bit out of the ordinary -- it reads like a love poem he dashed
    off to his wife, whether he did or whether he designed it that way
    (probably the latter, since his wife was born in March).


    As you know, much of my early years of poetry writing and study I was
    taught to shun rhymes, in popular culture and personal school studies


    My teacher and mentor Dan Barfield, as you know, famously told our class: >>>
    "Rhyme is a crutch."

    That would be late 70s, in high school back when and where rhyme was
    most out of fashion. I encountered the same prejudice in my friends who
    wrote poetry; all of them shunned rhyme, and only liked the poems in
    which I did the same.

    But regardless of Dan's views on rhyme, I'd interpret his maxim more
    charitably, not as saying "Don't use rhyme", but as Don't rely on rhyme;
    don't try to use it to support work that isn't supported otherwise.

    If I were teaching poetics, I'd advise new students to start by writing
    open form, until they'd learned how to write poems - how to arrange the
    words to tell a story, or present a scene, or even construct an
    argument, to give the reader an epiphany.

    Then I'd instruct them on meter, rhyme, and finally forms. But I'd make
    it clear that in their poems they'd have to use those in addition to all
    that other stuff they learned earlier, not as a substitute (or "crutch)
    for them.


    I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these >>> later years.

    I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
    the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
    influence on your doing that.


    I once credited Tupac Shakur with bringing me around to rhyming poetry, and the stand up delivery at poetry readings, which I began performing at weekly, sometimes daily, in 1995.

    I rode around town one night with my friend Terry Nell, listening to a cassette tape of Tupac Shakur, studying his rhyme and delivery, which was state of the art at the time:

    https://allpoetry.com/Tupac-Shakur


    That is correct....

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From General-Zod@21:1/5 to W.Dockery on Sun May 8 19:30:08 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    W.Dockery wrote:

    General-Zod wrote:
    George J. Dance wrote:

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...]
    https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html

    Cool, second read


    Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.

    Indeed, indeed....

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From W-Dockery@21:1/5 to George J. Dance on Mon May 9 02:22:29 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    George J. Dance wrote:

    On 2022-05-02 6:56 p.m., W.Dockery wrote:
    General-Zod wrote:
    George J. Dance wrote:

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...]
    https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html


    Cool, second read


    Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.

    Oh, yeah. As an example:I remember one textbook I picked up in the last
    half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to verse.
    First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it pontificated
    that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one example of
    rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.

    Be that as it may, I'm glad to have his poetry on the blog. This debut
    is a bit out of the ordinary -- it reads like a love poem he dashed off
    to his wife, whether he did or whether he designed it that way (probably
    the latter, since his wife was born in March).

    Yes, during the 1970s, rhymed poetry wasn't taken seriously.

    By the 1990s that was definitely changing.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From W-Dockery@21:1/5 to Michael Pendragon on Mon May 9 20:17:08 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    Michael Pendragon wrote:

    On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 3:00:15 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
    Michael Pendragon wrote:

    On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 9:50:14 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
    Michael Pendragon wrote:
    George J. Dance wrote:

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...]

    https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html


    Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.

    Oh, yeah. As an example:I remember one textbook I picked up in the last
    half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to verse. >> > >>> First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it pontificated >> > >>> that rhyme was good only for humorous effect;

    What an appallingly horrid little work that must have been.

    And a textbook, yet (implying that it was actually taught in classrooms).

    One need look no farther to understand why poetry has become a dead language and an obsolete art form.

    And, yes -- I would consign that book to be burned along with
    Your burn list includes some of the best poets:

    Allen Ginsberg
    Charles Bukowski
    Jack Kerouac

    I don't see any poets on that list
    Thus, your ignorance of certain forms of poetry is confirmed.

    I'm familiar with all of their writings

    I know you've only read a paragraph or two of Jack keroua, how much poetry by the other two have you actually read?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From W-Dockery@21:1/5 to George J. Dance on Tue May 10 14:52:28 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    George J. Dance wrote:

    On 2022-04-30 5:13 p.m., General-Zod wrote:
    George J. Dance wrote:

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...]
    https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html


    Cool, second read


    I am glad you're a fan of Nash, because this is a big moment. You see
    Nash died in 1971, meaning his poems went into the public domain last
    Jan. 1. Accordingly, this is his first time on the blog, and perhaps the first time he's been published legally in years.

    His poetry is all over the web, but mainly on sites in the U.S., where
    it will still be copyrighted for years; but the publisher hasn't kept
    his books in print, so it's unlikely to challenge those bootleg copies.


    Looking forward to reading more of your Nash selections.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From W.Dockery@21:1/5 to George J. Dance on Tue May 10 16:11:32 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    George J. Dance wrote:

    On 2022-05-09 8:12 p.m., Will Dockery wrote:

    Michael Pendragon, you may have read a bit of Allen Ginsberg, Charles Bukowski and Jack Kerouac

    Not good enough. He claims to "be familiar with all their writing" --
    not a bit of it, not even a lot of it, but all of it, every jot and tittle.

    I remember Pendragon claiming he'd read about a paragraph of Jack Kerouac and stopped, I'd be surprised if he even made it all the way through "Howl", much less the hundreds of poems written by Allen Ginsberg (and Charles Bukowski).

    :)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From General-Zod@21:1/5 to George J. Dance on Tue May 10 17:28:54 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    George J. Dance wrote:

    On 2022-05-02 6:56 p.m., W.Dockery wrote:
    General-Zod wrote:
    George J. Dance wrote:

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...]
    https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html


    Cool, second read


    Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.

    Oh, yeah. As an example:I remember one textbook I picked up in the last
    half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to verse.
    First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it pontificated
    that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one example of
    rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.

    Be that as it may, I'm glad to have his poetry on the blog. This debut
    is a bit out of the ordinary -- it reads like a love poem he dashed off
    to his wife, whether he did or whether he designed it that way (probably
    the latter, since his wife was born in March).

    Strange days indeed....

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From W-Dockery@21:1/5 to George J. Dance on Thu May 12 13:56:44 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    George J. Dance wrote:

    On 2022-05-04 11:58 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:

    This is something I enjoyed reading.


    I still remember the first time I was confronted with "modern" poetry (long before I ever dreamed of penning any poetry of my own), and my inability to understand how it was supposed to be the same literary form as the poetry I'd known and loved since
    early childhood.

    Poetry had always been defined as having rhyme and meter.

    Not "always". Older poetry "Greek" to "Anglo-Saxon" had meter (in its
    own fashion) but not rhyme. Rhyme (and our concept of meter) began in
    Italy, and while English poets had been using it since Chaucer, it was
    still quite controversial in the early Tudor period. So you can say it's
    been around since "the beginning"

    Blank verse, which kept only meter, was a sub-division of poetry.

    But modern verse, which eliminates both the rhyme and the meter no longer has either of the defining characteristics of poetry.

    This does not in any way imply that modern verse is inferior (or superior) to poetry. It is saying that they are two different literary forms.


    Unfortunately, by appropriating the name of "poetry" for itself, modern verse rendered traditional poetry obsolete.


    The concept that's been lost isn't that of "poetry", but of "verse" -- literature written in meter. As evidence, here's the traditional concept
    of verse, from PPP:
    "A verse is formally a line of poetry written in meter. However, the
    word has come to mean poetry in general (or sometimes even non-poetry) written in lines of a regular metrical pattern."

    And here's the public understanding of "verse", from Wikipedia:
    "In the countable sense, a verse is formally a single metrical line in a poetic composition. However, verse has come to represent any division or grouping of words in a poetic composition, with groupings traditionally having been referred to as stanzas."

    The two different literary forms are poetry in verse (or "verse") and
    poetry without verse ("open form"). But there's no line between them,
    no; a poet can use both, even in the same poem. So there's a lot of
    hybrid poetry as well. (The paradigm example is Eliot, who used rhyme
    and meter, but not use in the normal way, mixing up his meters
    willy-nilly and throwing in a lot of unrhymed lines in amongst the
    rhymed ones.)

    If you look at any of the poetry journals at your library, you'll find that traditional (rhymed-metered) verse is nowhere to be found.

    Modern and traditional verse should have existed side-by-side, as related forms of literature -- as they do in "A Year of Sundays." However, in the academic and literary world, the former has entirely supplanted the latter.

    That readers still appreciate traditional can be determined by the fact that traditional poetry collections by Donne, Shakespeare, Keats, Poe, et al., are continuously in print. Yet the academic prejudice for modern verse has blocked any new
    traditional poetry from being published -- effectively killing it as a literary form.


    I think that has definitely changed, and again that's the internet. For
    a while after WWII academics did successfully serve as gatekeepers: late modernist poetry was nothing but 100 or so small journals, put out and
    read by perhaps 10,000 people. But again, as I'd say, the internet
    changed everything. Not only do today's poets have access to a vast
    audience online; they even have self-publication, with the result that
    the academics don't even have a monopoly in their totemic symbols, the physical books and magazines.

    When I talk of metaphorically burning books (and/or poets) I am not speaking out of jealousy, but out of a desire to bring about a literary form of enantiodromia wherein traditional verse is re-established as poetry and modern verse is removed to its
    proper categorization of "poetic prose."

    Ideally, I would like both forms to co-exist -- but until such a time comes about, I shall continue to advocate the "burning" of texts, journals, and poetic forms that prevent traditional verse from flourishing.


    No form of literature prevents another from flourishing. Elites (or
    snobs) in one form may actively try to do so (and I think that little
    poetics text I started this off with is a good example of that snobbery
    and nothing but), but all that's needed is for the world to stop paying attention to that. And that's what's happened to the erstwhile academic gatekeepers over the last quarter-century.

    Nailed it, George Dance.

    HTH and HAND.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Terry Stomp@21:1/5 to will.d...@gmail.com on Thu May 12 14:40:38 2022
    On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 7:00:13 PM UTC-4, will.d...@gmail.com wrote:
    General-Zod wrote:
    George J. Dance wrote:

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...]
    https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html

    Cool, second read
    Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.

    Yep....

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From General-Zod@21:1/5 to Will Dockery on Fri May 13 20:42:55 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    Will Dockery wrote:
    George J. Dance wrote:
    On 2022-05-04 11:58 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:

    This is something I enjoyed reading.


    I still remember the first time I was confronted with "modern" poetry (long before I ever dreamed of penning any poetry of my own), and my inability to understand how it was supposed to be the same literary form as the poetry I'd known and loved
    since early childhood.

    Poetry had always been defined as having rhyme and meter.

    Not "always". Older poetry "Greek" to "Anglo-Saxon" had meter (in its
    own fashion) but not rhyme. Rhyme (and our concept of meter) began in
    Italy, and while English poets had been using it since Chaucer, it was
    still quite controversial in the early Tudor period. So you can say it's
    been around since "the beginning"

    Blank verse, which kept only meter, was a sub-division of poetry.

    But modern verse, which eliminates both the rhyme and the meter no longer has either of the defining characteristics of poetry.

    This does not in any way imply that modern verse is inferior (or superior) to poetry. It is saying that they are two different literary forms.


    Unfortunately, by appropriating the name of "poetry" for itself, modern verse rendered traditional poetry obsolete.


    The concept that's been lost isn't that of "poetry", but of "verse" --
    literature written in meter. As evidence, here's the traditional concept
    of verse, from PPP:
    "A verse is formally a line of poetry written in meter. However, the
    word has come to mean poetry in general (or sometimes even non-poetry)
    written in lines of a regular metrical pattern."

    And here's the public understanding of "verse", from Wikipedia:
    "In the countable sense, a verse is formally a single metrical line in a
    poetic composition. However, verse has come to represent any division or
    grouping of words in a poetic composition, with groupings traditionally
    having been referred to as stanzas."

    The two different literary forms are poetry in verse (or "verse") and
    poetry without verse ("open form"). But there's no line between them,
    no; a poet can use both, even in the same poem. So there's a lot of
    hybrid poetry as well. (The paradigm example is Eliot, who used rhyme
    and meter, but not use in the normal way, mixing up his meters
    willy-nilly and throwing in a lot of unrhymed lines in amongst the
    rhymed ones.)

    If you look at any of the poetry journals at your library, you'll find that traditional (rhymed-metered) verse is nowhere to be found.

    Modern and traditional verse should have existed side-by-side, as related forms of literature -- as they do in "A Year of Sundays." However, in the academic and literary world, the former has entirely supplanted the latter.

    That readers still appreciate traditional can be determined by the fact that traditional poetry collections by Donne, Shakespeare, Keats, Poe, et al., are continuously in print. Yet the academic prejudice for modern verse has blocked any new
    traditional poetry from being published -- effectively killing it as a literary form.


    I think that has definitely changed, and again that's the internet. For
    a while after WWII academics did successfully serve as gatekeepers: late
    modernist poetry was nothing but 100 or so small journals, put out and
    read by perhaps 10,000 people. But again, as I'd say, the internet
    changed everything. Not only do today's poets have access to a vast
    audience online; they even have self-publication, with the result that
    the academics don't even have a monopoly in their totemic symbols, the
    physical books and magazines.

    When I talk of metaphorically burning books (and/or poets) I am not speaking out of jealousy, but out of a desire to bring about a literary form of enantiodromia wherein traditional verse is re-established as poetry and modern verse is removed to its
    proper categorization of "poetic prose."

    Ideally, I would like both forms to co-exist -- but until such a time comes about, I shall continue to advocate the "burning" of texts, journals, and poetic forms that prevent traditional verse from flourishing.


    No form of literature prevents another from flourishing. Elites (or
    snobs) in one form may actively try to do so (and I think that little
    poetics text I started this off with is a good example of that snobbery
    and nothing but), but all that's needed is for the world to stop paying
    attention to that. And that's what's happened to the erstwhile academic
    gatekeepers over the last quarter-century.

    Nailed it, George Dance.

    HTH and HAND.

    Agreed and seconded.....

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From W.Dockery@21:1/5 to General-Zod on Sun May 15 11:17:03 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    General-Zod wrote:
    George J. Dance wrote:

    On 2022-05-02 6:56 p.m., W.Dockery wrote:
    General-Zod wrote:
    George J. Dance wrote:

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...]
    https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html


    Cool, second read


    Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.

    Oh, yeah. As an example:I remember one textbook I picked up in the last
    half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to verse.
    First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it pontificated
    that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one example of
    rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.

    Be that as it may, I'm glad to have his poetry on the blog. This debut
    is a bit out of the ordinary -- it reads like a love poem he dashed off
    to his wife, whether he did or whether he designed it that way (probably
    the latter, since his wife was born in March).

    Strange days indeed....

    Most peculiar.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From W.Dockery@21:1/5 to General-Zod on Tue May 17 14:43:05 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    General-Zod wrote:

    George J. Dance wrote:

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...]
    https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html

    Cool, second read

    Good morning, agreed.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From General-Zod@21:1/5 to George J. Dance on Thu May 19 20:36:27 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    George J. Dance wrote:

    On 2022-04-30 5:13 p.m., General-Zod wrote:
    George J. Dance wrote:

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...]
    https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html


    Cool, second read


    I am glad you're a fan of Nash, because this is a big moment. You see
    Nash died in 1971, meaning his poems went into the public domain last
    Jan. 1. Accordingly, this is his first time on the blog, and perhaps the first time he's been published legally in years.

    His poetry is all over the web, but mainly on sites in the U.S., where
    it will still be copyrighted for years; but the publisher hasn't kept
    his books in print, so it's unlikely to challenge those bootleg copies.


    Cool... cool....

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From General-Zod@21:1/5 to George J. Dance on Sat May 21 18:22:10 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    George J. Dance wrote:

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...] https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html


    Yep... great

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Zod@21:1/5 to George J. Dance on Sun May 22 20:50:14 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    George J. Dance wrote:

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...] https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html

    Having another read, love this one....

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From W.Dockery@21:1/5 to Zod on Tue May 24 16:56:50 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    Zod wrote:

    George J. Dance wrote:

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...]
    https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html

    Having another read, love this one....


    Nash at his best.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From General-Zod@21:1/5 to Will Dockery on Sat May 28 18:13:28 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    Will Dockery wrote:

    Zod wrote:

    George J. Dance wrote:

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...]
    https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html

    Having another read, love this one....


    Nash at his best.

    He's pretty groovy....

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From W.Dockery@21:1/5 to Zod on Sun May 29 23:48:58 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    Zod wrote:

    George J. Dance wrote:

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...]
    https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html

    Love ole Ogden Nash....!


    He did have his moments.

    🙂

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From W.Dockery@21:1/5 to General-Zod on Thu Jun 2 14:31:22 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    General-Zod wrote:

    George J. Dance wrote:

    On 2022-04-30 5:13 p.m., General-Zod wrote:
    George J. Dance wrote:

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...]
    https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html


    Cool, second read


    I am glad you're a fan of Nash, because this is a big moment. You see
    Nash died in 1971, meaning his poems went into the public domain last
    Jan. 1. Accordingly, this is his first time on the blog, and perhaps the
    first time he's been published legally in years.

    His poetry is all over the web, but mainly on sites in the U.S., where
    it will still be copyrighted for years; but the publisher hasn't kept
    his books in print, so it's unlikely to challenge those bootleg copies.


    Cool... cool....


    Agreed.

    🙂

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From General-Zod@21:1/5 to Will Dockery on Sat Jun 4 15:57:30 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    Will Dockery wrote:

    General-Zod wrote:

    George J. Dance wrote:

    On 2022-04-30 5:13 p.m., General-Zod wrote:
    George J. Dance wrote:

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...]
    https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html


    Cool, second read


    I am glad you're a fan of Nash, because this is a big moment. You see
    Nash died in 1971, meaning his poems went into the public domain last
    Jan. 1. Accordingly, this is his first time on the blog, and perhaps the >>> first time he's been published legally in years.

    His poetry is all over the web, but mainly on sites in the U.S., where
    it will still be copyrighted for years; but the publisher hasn't kept
    his books in print, so it's unlikely to challenge those bootleg copies.


    Cool... cool....


    Agreed.

    🙂

    Good day to ye, kind sir.....

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From W.Dockery@21:1/5 to General-Zod on Thu Jun 9 12:20:23 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    General-Zod wrote:

    Will Dockery wrote:

    General-Zod wrote:

    George J. Dance wrote:

    On 2022-04-30 5:13 p.m., General-Zod wrote:
    George J. Dance wrote:

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...]
    https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html


    Cool, second read


    I am glad you're a fan of Nash, because this is a big moment. You see
    Nash died in 1971, meaning his poems went into the public domain last
    Jan. 1. Accordingly, this is his first time on the blog, and perhaps the >>>> first time he's been published legally in years.

    His poetry is all over the web, but mainly on sites in the U.S., where >>>> it will still be copyrighted for years; but the publisher hasn't kept
    his books in print, so it's unlikely to challenge those bootleg copies.


    Cool... cool....


    Agreed.


    Good day to ye, kind sir.....

    Good morning, my friend.

    🙂

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rocky Stoneberg@21:1/5 to Will Dockery on Sun Jun 12 20:49:11 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    Will Dockery wrote:

    Zod wrote:

    George J. Dance wrote:

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...]
    https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html

    Love ole Ogden Nash....!


    He did have his moments.

    🙂

    i like his poetry quite a lots......

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From W.Dockery@21:1/5 to George J. Dance on Mon Jun 13 19:58:27 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    Response from George Dance attempting to clear up Pendragon's confusion:

    https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    George J. Dance wrote:
    On 2022-05-05 11:03 a.m., Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
    On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:48:57 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
    Were you asleep in the 1990s-2000s, Pendragon?

    Love it or hate it, the hip-hop and rap influence on the current poetry scene is real.

    Look it up.

    We were discussing the change from traditional to modern poetry, Donkey, and the subsequent redefinition of poetry (abandonment of rhymed-metered verse).

    No, we'd moved on from that and were talking about the rediscovery of
    rhyme (beginning in the 1980s).



    I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these
    later years.

    I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
    the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
    influence on your doing that.

    I think perhaps the [advent] of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring
    on the changes as well.....


    Will, of course, was talking about himself and his own discovery of
    rhyme. Zod was pointing out that the former didn't happen in a vacuum;
    Will's pesonal evolution was happening in, and reflective of, a general
    popular trend in poetry post-1980.

    1) Hip-hop and rap did not appear until long after the change had taken place.
    2) Hip-hop and rap rely heavily on rhyme and meter, and would represent a popular movement to restore traditional poetry.

    Exactly what Zod was saying. The hip-hop movement didn't occur in a
    vacuum, though; there were other factors behind the rediscovery of
    rhyme. The most important, academically, was the rise of New Formalism,
    which was a movement of poetics as much as poetry.

    But the biggest influence, I'd say, was as always the internet. Suddenly
    (over 25 or so years, or just the blink of an eye in terms of the
    tradition), public domain poetry went from a few dusty books in
    second-hand shelves, that hardly anyone even noticed much less bought,
    to being seen and read by millions.

    You and your Stink are obviously unaware of both the history of modern poetry and of the history of poetry in general.


    No, that looks like a case of misunderstanding.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Victor H.@21:1/5 to Will Dockery on Mon Jun 13 20:42:06 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    Will Dockery wrote:

    Response from George Dance attempting to clear up Pendragon's confusion:

    https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------- George J. Dance wrote:
    On 2022-05-05 11:03 a.m., Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
    On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:48:57 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
    Were you asleep in the 1990s-2000s, Pendragon?

    Love it or hate it, the hip-hop and rap influence on the current poetry scene is real.

    Look it up.

    We were discussing the change from traditional to modern poetry, Donkey, and the subsequent redefinition of poetry (abandonment of rhymed-metered verse).

    No, we'd moved on from that and were talking about the rediscovery of
    rhyme (beginning in the 1980s).



    I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these >>> later years.

    I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
    the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
    influence on your doing that.

    I think perhaps the [advent] of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring
    on the changes as well.....


    Will, of course, was talking about himself and his own discovery of
    rhyme. Zod was pointing out that the former didn't happen in a vacuum;
    Will's pesonal evolution was happening in, and reflective of, a general popular trend in poetry post-1980.

    1) Hip-hop and rap did not appear until long after the change had taken place.
    2) Hip-hop and rap rely heavily on rhyme and meter, and would represent a popular movement to restore traditional poetry.

    Exactly what Zod was saying. The hip-hop movement didn't occur in a
    vacuum, though; there were other factors behind the rediscovery of
    rhyme. The most important, academically, was the rise of New Formalism,
    which was a movement of poetics as much as poetry.

    But the biggest influence, I'd say, was as always the internet. Suddenly (over 25 or so years, or just the blink of an eye in terms of the
    tradition), public domain poetry went from a few dusty books in
    second-hand shelves, that hardly anyone even noticed much less bought,
    to being seen and read by millions.

    You and your Stink are obviously unaware of both the history of modern poetry and of the history of poetry in general.


    No, that looks like a case of misunderstanding.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ


    Again, I thank you for setting the record straight on this here matter.....

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From W-Dockery@21:1/5 to Victor H. on Tue Jun 14 16:47:39 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    Victor H. wrote:

    Will Dockery wrote:

    Response from George Dance attempting to clear up Pendragon's confusion:

    https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    George J. Dance wrote:
    On 2022-05-05 11:03 a.m., Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
    On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:48:57 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
    Were you asleep in the 1990s-2000s, Pendragon?

    Love it or hate it, the hip-hop and rap influence on the current poetry scene is real.

    Look it up.

    We were discussing the change from traditional to modern poetry, Donkey, and the subsequent redefinition of poetry (abandonment of rhymed-metered verse).

    No, we'd moved on from that and were talking about the rediscovery of
    rhyme (beginning in the 1980s).

    <q>

    I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these >>>> later years.

    I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
    the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
    influence on your doing that.

    I think perhaps the [advent] of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring
    on the changes as well.....
    </q>

    Will, of course, was talking about himself and his own discovery of
    rhyme. Zod was pointing out that the former didn't happen in a vacuum;
    Will's pesonal evolution was happening in, and reflective of, a general
    popular trend in poetry post-1980.

    1) Hip-hop and rap did not appear until long after the change had taken place.
    2) Hip-hop and rap rely heavily on rhyme and meter, and would represent a popular movement to restore traditional poetry.

    Exactly what Zod was saying. The hip-hop movement didn't occur in a
    vacuum, though; there were other factors behind the rediscovery of
    rhyme. The most important, academically, was the rise of New Formalism,
    which was a movement of poetics as much as poetry.

    But the biggest influence, I'd say, was as always the internet. Suddenly
    (over 25 or so years, or just the blink of an eye in terms of the
    tradition), public domain poetry went from a few dusty books in
    second-hand shelves, that hardly anyone even noticed much less bought,
    to being seen and read by millions.

    You and your Stink are obviously unaware of both the history of modern poetry and of the history of poetry in general.


    No, that looks like a case of misunderstanding.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ


    Again, I thank you for setting the record straight on this here matter.....


    Pendragon is still playing stupid about it, but he's obviously mistaken, as George Dance corrected him.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Victor H.@21:1/5 to Will Dockery on Tue Jun 14 21:13:50 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    Will Dockery wrote:

    Response from George Dance attempting to clear up Pendragon's confusion:

    https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    George J. Dance wrote:
    On 2022-05-05 11:03 a.m., Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
    On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:48:57 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
    Were you asleep in the 1990s-2000s, Pendragon?

    Love it or hate it, the hip-hop and rap influence on the current poetry scene is real.

    Look it up.

    We were discussing the change from traditional to modern poetry, Donkey, and the subsequent redefinition of poetry (abandonment of rhymed-metered verse).

    No, we'd moved on from that and were talking about the rediscovery of
    rhyme (beginning in the 1980s).

    <q>

    I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these >>>>> later years.

    I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
    the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
    influence on your doing that.

    I think perhaps the [advent] of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring
    on the changes as well.....
    </q>

    Will, of course, was talking about himself and his own discovery of
    rhyme. Zod was pointing out that the former didn't happen in a vacuum;
    Will's pesonal evolution was happening in, and reflective of, a general
    popular trend in poetry post-1980.

    1) Hip-hop and rap did not appear until long after the change had taken place.
    2) Hip-hop and rap rely heavily on rhyme and meter, and would represent a popular movement to restore traditional poetry.

    Exactly what Zod was saying. The hip-hop movement didn't occur in a
    vacuum, though; there were other factors behind the rediscovery of
    rhyme. The most important, academically, was the rise of New Formalism,
    which was a movement of poetics as much as poetry.

    But the biggest influence, I'd say, was as always the internet. Suddenly >>> (over 25 or so years, or just the blink of an eye in terms of the
    tradition), public domain poetry went from a few dusty books in
    second-hand shelves, that hardly anyone even noticed much less bought,
    to being seen and read by millions.

    You and your Stink are obviously unaware of both the history of modern poetry and of the history of poetry in general.


    No, that looks like a case of misunderstanding.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ


    Again, I thank you for setting the record straight on this here matter.....


    Pendragon is still playing stupid about it, but he's obviously mistaken, as George Dance corrected him.


    That's just the way he is.....

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From W-Dockery@21:1/5 to Victor H. on Mon Jun 20 08:34:49 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    Victor H. wrote:

    Will Dockery wrote:

    Response from George Dance attempting to clear up Pendragon's confusion:

    https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> George J. Dance wrote:
    On 2022-05-05 11:03 a.m., Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
    On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:48:57 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
    Were you asleep in the 1990s-2000s, Pendragon?

    Love it or hate it, the hip-hop and rap influence on the current poetry scene is real.

    Look it up.

    We were discussing the change from traditional to modern poetry, Donkey, and the subsequent redefinition of poetry (abandonment of rhymed-metered verse).

    No, we'd moved on from that and were talking about the rediscovery of
    rhyme (beginning in the 1980s).

    <q>

    I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these >>>>>> later years.

    I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on >>>>> the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
    influence on your doing that.

    I think perhaps the [advent] of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring >>>> on the changes as well.....
    </q>

    Will, of course, was talking about himself and his own discovery of
    rhyme. Zod was pointing out that the former didn't happen in a vacuum; >>>> Will's pesonal evolution was happening in, and reflective of, a general >>>> popular trend in poetry post-1980.

    1) Hip-hop and rap did not appear until long after the change had taken place.
    2) Hip-hop and rap rely heavily on rhyme and meter, and would represent a popular movement to restore traditional poetry.

    Exactly what Zod was saying. The hip-hop movement didn't occur in a
    vacuum, though; there were other factors behind the rediscovery of
    rhyme. The most important, academically, was the rise of New Formalism, >>>> which was a movement of poetics as much as poetry.

    But the biggest influence, I'd say, was as always the internet. Suddenly >>>> (over 25 or so years, or just the blink of an eye in terms of the
    tradition), public domain poetry went from a few dusty books in
    second-hand shelves, that hardly anyone even noticed much less bought, >>>> to being seen and read by millions.

    You and your Stink are obviously unaware of both the history of modern poetry and of the history of poetry in general.


    No, that looks like a case of misunderstanding.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ


    Again, I thank you for setting the record straight on this here matter.....


    Pendragon is still playing stupid about it, but he's obviously mistaken, as George Dance corrected him.


    That's just the way he is.....


    It's all here, archived, so I suppose it's time to move on to the next engagement.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Victor H.@21:1/5 to George J. Dance on Wed Jun 22 19:35:33 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    George J. Dance wrote:
    On 2022-04-30 5:13 p.m., General-Zod wrote:
    George J. Dance wrote:

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...]
    https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html


    Cool, second read


    I am glad you're a fan of Nash, because this is a big moment. You see >>>>> Nash died in 1971, meaning his poems went into the public domain last >>>>> Jan. 1. Accordingly, this is his first time on the blog, and perhaps the >>>>> first time he's been published legally in years.

    His poetry is all over the web, but mainly on sites in the U.S., where >>>>> it will still be copyrighted for years; but the publisher hasn't kept >>>>> his books in print, so it's unlikely to challenge those bootleg copies.


    I thank you for the knowledge.....

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From W-Dockery@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jun 24 17:25:24 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    Again, the response from George Dance attempting to clear up Pendragon's confusion:

    https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------- George J. Dance wrote:
    On 2022-05-05 11:03 a.m., Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
    On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:48:57 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
    Were you asleep in the 1990s-2000s, Pendragon?

    Love it or hate it, the hip-hop and rap influence on the current poetry scene is real.

    Look it up.

    We were discussing the change from traditional to modern poetry, Donkey, and the subsequent redefinition of poetry (abandonment of rhymed-metered verse).

    No, we'd moved on from that and were talking about the rediscovery of
    rhyme (beginning in the 1980s).



    I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these >>> later years.

    I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
    the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
    influence on your doing that.

    I think perhaps the [advent] of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring
    on the changes as well.....


    Will, of course, was talking about himself and his own discovery of
    rhyme. Zod was pointing out that the former didn't happen in a vacuum;
    Will's pesonal evolution was happening in, and reflective of, a general popular trend in poetry post-1980.

    1) Hip-hop and rap did not appear until long after the change had taken place.
    2) Hip-hop and rap rely heavily on rhyme and meter, and would represent a popular movement to restore traditional poetry.

    Exactly what Zod was saying. The hip-hop movement didn't occur in a
    vacuum, though; there were other factors behind the rediscovery of
    rhyme. The most important, academically, was the rise of New Formalism,
    which was a movement of poetics as much as poetry.

    But the biggest influence, I'd say, was as always the internet. Suddenly (over 25 or so years, or just the blink of an eye in terms of the
    tradition), public domain poetry went from a few dusty books in
    second-hand shelves, that hardly anyone even noticed much less bought,
    to being seen and read by millions.

    You and your Stink are obviously unaware of both the history of modern poetry and of the history of poetry in general.


    No, that looks like a case of misunderstanding.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ

    Again, lest we forget.

    HTH and HAND.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Victor H.@21:1/5 to W-Dockery on Fri Jun 24 19:58:35 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    W-Dockery wrote:

    Again, the response from George Dance attempting to clear up Pendragon's confusion:

    https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    George J. Dance wrote:
    On 2022-05-05 11:03 a.m., Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
    On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:48:57 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
    Were you asleep in the 1990s-2000s, Pendragon?

    Love it or hate it, the hip-hop and rap influence on the current poetry scene is real.

    Look it up.

    We were discussing the change from traditional to modern poetry, Donkey, and the subsequent redefinition of poetry (abandonment of rhymed-metered verse).

    No, we'd moved on from that and were talking about the rediscovery of
    rhyme (beginning in the 1980s).

    <q>

    I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these >>>> later years.

    I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
    the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
    influence on your doing that.

    I think perhaps the [advent] of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring
    on the changes as well.....
    </q>

    Will, of course, was talking about himself and his own discovery of
    rhyme. Zod was pointing out that the former didn't happen in a vacuum;
    Will's pesonal evolution was happening in, and reflective of, a general
    popular trend in poetry post-1980.

    1) Hip-hop and rap did not appear until long after the change had taken place.
    2) Hip-hop and rap rely heavily on rhyme and meter, and would represent a popular movement to restore traditional poetry.

    Exactly what Zod was saying. The hip-hop movement didn't occur in a
    vacuum, though; there were other factors behind the rediscovery of
    rhyme. The most important, academically, was the rise of New Formalism,
    which was a movement of poetics as much as poetry.

    But the biggest influence, I'd say, was as always the internet. Suddenly
    (over 25 or so years, or just the blink of an eye in terms of the
    tradition), public domain poetry went from a few dusty books in
    second-hand shelves, that hardly anyone even noticed much less bought,
    to being seen and read by millions.

    You and your Stink are obviously unaware of both the history of modern poetry and of the history of poetry in general.


    No, that looks like a case of misunderstanding.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ

    Again, lest we forget.

    HTH and HAND.

    Quite rightly....

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From W.Dockery@21:1/5 to Victor H. on Sun Jun 26 17:23:21 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    Victor H. wrote:

    George J. Dance wrote:
    On 2022-04-30 5:13 p.m., General-Zod wrote:
    George J. Dance wrote:

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...]
    https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html


    Cool, second read


    I am glad you're a fan of Nash, because this is a big moment. You see >>>>>> Nash died in 1971, meaning his poems went into the public domain last >>>>>> Jan. 1. Accordingly, this is his first time on the blog, and perhaps the >>>>>> first time he's been published legally in years.

    His poetry is all over the web, but mainly on sites in the U.S., where >>>>>> it will still be copyrighted for years; but the publisher hasn't kept >>>>>> his books in print, so it's unlikely to challenge those bootleg copies.


    I thank you for the knowledge.....

    Seconded.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Victor H.@21:1/5 to Will Dockery on Sun Jun 26 18:13:29 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    Will Dockery wrote:

    General-Zod wrote:

    George J. Dance wrote:

    On 2022-04-30 5:13 p.m., General-Zod wrote:
    George J. Dance wrote:

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...]
    https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html


    Cool, second read


    I am glad you're a fan of Nash, because this is a big moment. You see >>>>> Nash died in 1971, meaning his poems went into the public domain last >>>>> Jan. 1. Accordingly, this is his first time on the blog, and perhaps the >>>>> first time he's been published legally in years.

    His poetry is all over the web, but mainly on sites in the U.S., where >>>>> it will still be copyrighted for years; but the publisher hasn't kept >>>>> his books in print, so it's unlikely to challenge those bootleg copies.


    Cool... cool....


    Agreed.

    Howdy....

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bandit hickaloo@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jul 10 08:09:49 2022
    this newsgroup seems almost entirely dead

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From W-Dockery@21:1/5 to George J. Dance on Wed Jul 27 16:26:27 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    George J. Dance wrote:

    On 2022-05-02 6:56 p.m., W.Dockery wrote:
    General-Zod wrote:
    George J. Dance wrote:

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...]
    https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html


    Cool, second read


    Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.

    Oh, yeah. As an example:I remember one textbook I picked up in the last
    half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to verse.
    First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it pontificated
    that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one example of
    rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.

    Be that as it may, I'm glad to have his poetry on the blog. This debut
    is a bit out of the ordinary -- it reads like a love poem he dashed off
    to his wife, whether he did or whether he designed it that way (probably
    the latter, since his wife was born in March).


    And the uniqueness of this poem in relation to most others by Nash makes it a particular favorite for me.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Victor H.@21:1/5 to Will Dockery on Thu Jul 28 22:45:13 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    Will Dockery wrote:

    George J. Dance wrote:

    On 2022-05-04 11:58 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:

    This is something I enjoyed reading.


    I still remember the first time I was confronted with "modern" poetry (long before I ever dreamed of penning any poetry of my own), and my inability to understand how it was supposed to be the same literary form as the poetry I'd known and loved
    since early childhood.

    Poetry had always been defined as having rhyme and meter.

    Not "always". Older poetry "Greek" to "Anglo-Saxon" had meter (in its
    own fashion) but not rhyme. Rhyme (and our concept of meter) began in
    Italy, and while English poets had been using it since Chaucer, it was
    still quite controversial in the early Tudor period. So you can say it's
    been around since "the beginning"

    Blank verse, which kept only meter, was a sub-division of poetry.

    But modern verse, which eliminates both the rhyme and the meter no longer has either of the defining characteristics of poetry.

    This does not in any way imply that modern verse is inferior (or superior) to poetry. It is saying that they are two different literary forms.


    Unfortunately, by appropriating the name of "poetry" for itself, modern verse rendered traditional poetry obsolete.


    The concept that's been lost isn't that of "poetry", but of "verse" --
    literature written in meter. As evidence, here's the traditional concept
    of verse, from PPP:
    "A verse is formally a line of poetry written in meter. However, the
    word has come to mean poetry in general (or sometimes even non-poetry)
    written in lines of a regular metrical pattern."

    And here's the public understanding of "verse", from Wikipedia:
    "In the countable sense, a verse is formally a single metrical line in a
    poetic composition. However, verse has come to represent any division or
    grouping of words in a poetic composition, with groupings traditionally
    having been referred to as stanzas."

    The two different literary forms are poetry in verse (or "verse") and
    poetry without verse ("open form"). But there's no line between them,
    no; a poet can use both, even in the same poem. So there's a lot of
    hybrid poetry as well. (The paradigm example is Eliot, who used rhyme
    and meter, but not use in the normal way, mixing up his meters
    willy-nilly and throwing in a lot of unrhymed lines in amongst the
    rhymed ones.)

    If you look at any of the poetry journals at your library, you'll find that traditional (rhymed-metered) verse is nowhere to be found.

    Modern and traditional verse should have existed side-by-side, as related forms of literature -- as they do in "A Year of Sundays." However, in the academic and literary world, the former has entirely supplanted the latter.

    That readers still appreciate traditional can be determined by the fact that traditional poetry collections by Donne, Shakespeare, Keats, Poe, et al., are continuously in print. Yet the academic prejudice for modern verse has blocked any new
    traditional poetry from being published -- effectively killing it as a literary form.


    I think that has definitely changed, and again that's the internet. For
    a while after WWII academics did successfully serve as gatekeepers: late
    modernist poetry was nothing but 100 or so small journals, put out and
    read by perhaps 10,000 people. But again, as I'd say, the internet
    changed everything. Not only do today's poets have access to a vast
    audience online; they even have self-publication, with the result that
    the academics don't even have a monopoly in their totemic symbols, the
    physical books and magazines.

    When I talk of metaphorically burning books (and/or poets) I am not speaking out of jealousy, but out of a desire to bring about a literary form of enantiodromia wherein traditional verse is re-established as poetry and modern verse is removed to its
    proper categorization of "poetic prose."

    Ideally, I would like both forms to co-exist -- but until such a time comes about, I shall continue to advocate the "burning" of texts, journals, and poetic forms that prevent traditional verse from flourishing.


    No form of literature prevents another from flourishing. Elites (or
    snobs) in one form may actively try to do so (and I think that little
    poetics text I started this off with is a good example of that snobbery
    and nothing but), but all that's needed is for the world to stop paying
    attention to that. And that's what's happened to the erstwhile academic
    gatekeepers over the last quarter-century.

    Nailed it, George Dance.

    HTH and HAND.


    Quite rightly....

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From W.Dockery@21:1/5 to Victor H. on Sat Jul 30 20:53:24 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    Victor H. wrote:
    George J. Dance wrote:

    On 2022-05-04 11:58 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:

    This is something I enjoyed reading.


    I still remember the first time I was confronted with "modern" poetry (long before I ever dreamed of penning any poetry of my own), and my inability to understand how it was supposed to be the same literary form as the poetry I'd known and loved
    since early childhood.

    Poetry had always been defined as having rhyme and meter.

    Not "always". Older poetry "Greek" to "Anglo-Saxon" had meter (in its
    own fashion) but not rhyme. Rhyme (and our concept of meter) began in
    Italy, and while English poets had been using it since Chaucer, it was
    still quite controversial in the early Tudor period. So you can say it's >>> been around since "the beginning"

    Blank verse, which kept only meter, was a sub-division of poetry.

    But modern verse, which eliminates both the rhyme and the meter no longer has either of the defining characteristics of poetry.

    This does not in any way imply that modern verse is inferior (or superior) to poetry. It is saying that they are two different literary forms.


    Unfortunately, by appropriating the name of "poetry" for itself, modern verse rendered traditional poetry obsolete.


    The concept that's been lost isn't that of "poetry", but of "verse" --
    literature written in meter. As evidence, here's the traditional concept >>> of verse, from PPP:
    "A verse is formally a line of poetry written in meter. However, the
    word has come to mean poetry in general (or sometimes even non-poetry)
    written in lines of a regular metrical pattern."

    And here's the public understanding of "verse", from Wikipedia:
    "In the countable sense, a verse is formally a single metrical line in a >>> poetic composition. However, verse has come to represent any division or >>> grouping of words in a poetic composition, with groupings traditionally
    having been referred to as stanzas."

    The two different literary forms are poetry in verse (or "verse") and
    poetry without verse ("open form"). But there's no line between them,
    no; a poet can use both, even in the same poem. So there's a lot of
    hybrid poetry as well. (The paradigm example is Eliot, who used rhyme
    and meter, but not use in the normal way, mixing up his meters
    willy-nilly and throwing in a lot of unrhymed lines in amongst the
    rhymed ones.)

    If you look at any of the poetry journals at your library, you'll find that traditional (rhymed-metered) verse is nowhere to be found.

    Modern and traditional verse should have existed side-by-side, as related forms of literature -- as they do in "A Year of Sundays." However, in the academic and literary world, the former has entirely supplanted the latter.

    That readers still appreciate traditional can be determined by the fact that traditional poetry collections by Donne, Shakespeare, Keats, Poe, et al., are continuously in print. Yet the academic prejudice for modern verse has blocked any new
    traditional poetry from being published -- effectively killing it as a literary form.


    I think that has definitely changed, and again that's the internet. For
    a while after WWII academics did successfully serve as gatekeepers: late >>> modernist poetry was nothing but 100 or so small journals, put out and
    read by perhaps 10,000 people. But again, as I'd say, the internet
    changed everything. Not only do today's poets have access to a vast
    audience online; they even have self-publication, with the result that
    the academics don't even have a monopoly in their totemic symbols, the
    physical books and magazines.

    When I talk of metaphorically burning books (and/or poets) I am not speaking out of jealousy, but out of a desire to bring about a literary form of enantiodromia wherein traditional verse is re-established as poetry and modern verse is removed to
    its proper categorization of "poetic prose."

    Ideally, I would like both forms to co-exist -- but until such a time comes about, I shall continue to advocate the "burning" of texts, journals, and poetic forms that prevent traditional verse from flourishing.



    No form of literature prevents another from flourishing. Elites (or

    snobs) in one form may actively try to do so (and I think that little

    poetics text I started this off with is a good example of that snobbery

    and nothing but), but all that's needed is for the world to stop paying

    attention to that. And that's what's happened to the erstwhile academic

    gatekeepers over the last quarter-century.



    Quite rightly....

    Exactly.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Zod@21:1/5 to George J. Dance on Wed Aug 10 23:02:51 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    George J. Dance wrote:

    On 2022-05-04 11:58 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:

    This is something I enjoyed reading.


    I still remember the first time I was confronted with "modern" poetry (long before I ever dreamed of penning any poetry of my own), and my inability to understand how it was supposed to be the same literary form as the poetry I'd known and loved
    since early childhood.

    Poetry had always been defined as having rhyme and meter.

    Not "always". Older poetry "Greek" to "Anglo-Saxon" had meter (in its
    own fashion) but not rhyme. Rhyme (and our concept of meter) began in
    Italy, and while English poets had been using it since Chaucer, it was >>>> still quite controversial in the early Tudor period. So you can say it's >>>> been around since "the beginning"

    Blank verse, which kept only meter, was a sub-division of poetry.

    But modern verse, which eliminates both the rhyme and the meter no longer has either of the defining characteristics of poetry.

    This does not in any way imply that modern verse is inferior (or superior) to poetry. It is saying that they are two different literary forms.


    Unfortunately, by appropriating the name of "poetry" for itself, modern verse rendered traditional poetry obsolete.


    The concept that's been lost isn't that of "poetry", but of "verse" -- >>>> literature written in meter. As evidence, here's the traditional concept >>>> of verse, from PPP:
    "A verse is formally a line of poetry written in meter. However, the
    word has come to mean poetry in general (or sometimes even non-poetry) >>>> written in lines of a regular metrical pattern."

    And here's the public understanding of "verse", from Wikipedia:
    "In the countable sense, a verse is formally a single metrical line in a >>>> poetic composition. However, verse has come to represent any division or >>>> grouping of words in a poetic composition, with groupings traditionally >>>> having been referred to as stanzas."

    The two different literary forms are poetry in verse (or "verse") and
    poetry without verse ("open form"). But there's no line between them,
    no; a poet can use both, even in the same poem. So there's a lot of
    hybrid poetry as well. (The paradigm example is Eliot, who used rhyme
    and meter, but not use in the normal way, mixing up his meters
    willy-nilly and throwing in a lot of unrhymed lines in amongst the
    rhymed ones.)

    If you look at any of the poetry journals at your library, you'll find that traditional (rhymed-metered) verse is nowhere to be found.

    Modern and traditional verse should have existed side-by-side, as related forms of literature -- as they do in "A Year of Sundays." However, in the academic and literary world, the former has entirely supplanted the latter.

    That readers still appreciate traditional can be determined by the fact that traditional poetry collections by Donne, Shakespeare, Keats, Poe, et al., are continuously in print. Yet the academic prejudice for modern verse has blocked any new
    traditional poetry from being published -- effectively killing it as a literary form.


    I think that has definitely changed, and again that's the internet. For >>>> a while after WWII academics did successfully serve as gatekeepers: late >>>> modernist poetry was nothing but 100 or so small journals, put out and >>>> read by perhaps 10,000 people. But again, as I'd say, the internet
    changed everything. Not only do today's poets have access to a vast
    audience online; they even have self-publication, with the result that >>>> the academics don't even have a monopoly in their totemic symbols, the >>>> physical books and magazines.

    When I talk of metaphorically burning books (and/or poets) I am not speaking out of jealousy, but out of a desire to bring about a literary form of enantiodromia wherein traditional verse is re-established as poetry and modern verse is removed to
    its proper categorization of "poetic prose."

    Ideally, I would like both forms to co-exist -- but until such a time comes about, I shall continue to advocate the "burning" of texts, journals, and poetic forms that prevent traditional verse from flourishing.



    No form of literature prevents another from flourishing. Elites (or

    snobs) in one form may actively try to do so (and I think that little

    poetics text I started this off with is a good example of that snobbery

    and nothing but), but all that's needed is for the world to stop paying

    attention to that. And that's what's happened to the erstwhile academic

    gatekeepers over the last quarter-century.

    Cool back story...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From W.Dockery@21:1/5 to Zod on Fri Aug 12 10:26:57 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    Zod wrote:

    George J. Dance wrote:

    On 2022-05-04 11:58 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:

    This is something I enjoyed reading.


    I still remember the first time I was confronted with "modern" poetry (long before I ever dreamed of penning any poetry of my own), and my inability to understand how it was supposed to be the same literary form as the poetry I'd known and loved
    since early childhood.

    Poetry had always been defined as having rhyme and meter.

    Not "always". Older poetry "Greek" to "Anglo-Saxon" had meter (in its >>>>> own fashion) but not rhyme. Rhyme (and our concept of meter) began in >>>>> Italy, and while English poets had been using it since Chaucer, it was >>>>> still quite controversial in the early Tudor period. So you can say it's >>>>> been around since "the beginning"

    Blank verse, which kept only meter, was a sub-division of poetry.

    But modern verse, which eliminates both the rhyme and the meter no longer has either of the defining characteristics of poetry.

    This does not in any way imply that modern verse is inferior (or superior) to poetry. It is saying that they are two different literary forms.


    Unfortunately, by appropriating the name of "poetry" for itself, modern verse rendered traditional poetry obsolete.


    The concept that's been lost isn't that of "poetry", but of "verse" -- >>>>> literature written in meter. As evidence, here's the traditional concept >>>>> of verse, from PPP:
    "A verse is formally a line of poetry written in meter. However, the >>>>> word has come to mean poetry in general (or sometimes even non-poetry) >>>>> written in lines of a regular metrical pattern."

    And here's the public understanding of "verse", from Wikipedia:
    "In the countable sense, a verse is formally a single metrical line in a >>>>> poetic composition. However, verse has come to represent any division or >>>>> grouping of words in a poetic composition, with groupings traditionally >>>>> having been referred to as stanzas."

    The two different literary forms are poetry in verse (or "verse") and >>>>> poetry without verse ("open form"). But there's no line between them, >>>>> no; a poet can use both, even in the same poem. So there's a lot of
    hybrid poetry as well. (The paradigm example is Eliot, who used rhyme >>>>> and meter, but not use in the normal way, mixing up his meters
    willy-nilly and throwing in a lot of unrhymed lines in amongst the
    rhymed ones.)

    If you look at any of the poetry journals at your library, you'll find that traditional (rhymed-metered) verse is nowhere to be found.

    Modern and traditional verse should have existed side-by-side, as related forms of literature -- as they do in "A Year of Sundays." However, in the academic and literary world, the former has entirely supplanted the latter.

    That readers still appreciate traditional can be determined by the fact that traditional poetry collections by Donne, Shakespeare, Keats, Poe, et al., are continuously in print. Yet the academic prejudice for modern verse has blocked any new
    traditional poetry from being published -- effectively killing it as a literary form.


    I think that has definitely changed, and again that's the internet. For >>>>> a while after WWII academics did successfully serve as gatekeepers: late >>>>> modernist poetry was nothing but 100 or so small journals, put out and >>>>> read by perhaps 10,000 people. But again, as I'd say, the internet
    changed everything. Not only do today's poets have access to a vast
    audience online; they even have self-publication, with the result that >>>>> the academics don't even have a monopoly in their totemic symbols, the >>>>> physical books and magazines.

    When I talk of metaphorically burning books (and/or poets) I am not speaking out of jealousy, but out of a desire to bring about a literary form of enantiodromia wherein traditional verse is re-established as poetry and modern verse is removed to
    its proper categorization of "poetic prose."

    Ideally, I would like both forms to co-exist -- but until such a time comes about, I shall continue to advocate the "burning" of texts, journals, and poetic forms that prevent traditional verse from flourishing.



    No form of literature prevents another from flourishing. Elites (or

    snobs) in one form may actively try to do so (and I think that little

    poetics text I started this off with is a good example of that snobbery >>>
    and nothing but), but all that's needed is for the world to stop paying >>>
    attention to that. And that's what's happened to the erstwhile academic >>>
    gatekeepers over the last quarter-century.

    Cool back story...

    Agreed.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Zod@21:1/5 to George J. Dance on Sun Aug 14 20:05:23 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    George J. Dance wrote:

    On 2022-05-04 11:58 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:

    This is something I enjoyed reading.


    I still remember the first time I was confronted with "modern" poetry (long before I ever dreamed of penning any poetry of my own), and my inability to understand how it was supposed to be the same literary form as the poetry I'd known and loved
    since early childhood.

    Poetry had always been defined as having rhyme and meter.

    Not "always". Older poetry "Greek" to "Anglo-Saxon" had meter (in its
    own fashion) but not rhyme. Rhyme (and our concept of meter) began in
    Italy, and while English poets had been using it since Chaucer, it was >>>> still quite controversial in the early Tudor period. So you can say it's >>>> been around since "the beginning"

    Blank verse, which kept only meter, was a sub-division of poetry.

    But modern verse, which eliminates both the rhyme and the meter no longer has either of the defining characteristics of poetry.

    This does not in any way imply that modern verse is inferior (or superior) to poetry. It is saying that they are two different literary forms.


    Unfortunately, by appropriating the name of "poetry" for itself, modern verse rendered traditional poetry obsolete.


    The concept that's been lost isn't that of "poetry", but of "verse" -- >>>> literature written in meter. As evidence, here's the traditional concept >>>> of verse, from PPP:
    "A verse is formally a line of poetry written in meter. However, the
    word has come to mean poetry in general (or sometimes even non-poetry) >>>> written in lines of a regular metrical pattern."

    And here's the public understanding of "verse", from Wikipedia:
    "In the countable sense, a verse is formally a single metrical line in a >>>> poetic composition. However, verse has come to represent any division or >>>> grouping of words in a poetic composition, with groupings traditionally >>>> having been referred to as stanzas."

    The two different literary forms are poetry in verse (or "verse") and
    poetry without verse ("open form"). But there's no line between them,
    no; a poet can use both, even in the same poem. So there's a lot of
    hybrid poetry as well. (The paradigm example is Eliot, who used rhyme
    and meter, but not use in the normal way, mixing up his meters
    willy-nilly and throwing in a lot of unrhymed lines in amongst the
    rhymed ones.)

    If you look at any of the poetry journals at your library, you'll find that traditional (rhymed-metered) verse is nowhere to be found.

    Modern and traditional verse should have existed side-by-side, as related forms of literature -- as they do in "A Year of Sundays." However, in the academic and literary world, the former has entirely supplanted the latter.

    That readers still appreciate traditional can be determined by the fact that traditional poetry collections by Donne, Shakespeare, Keats, Poe, et al., are continuously in print. Yet the academic prejudice for modern verse has blocked any new
    traditional poetry from being published -- effectively killing it as a literary form.


    I think that has definitely changed, and again that's the internet. For >>>> a while after WWII academics did successfully serve as gatekeepers: late >>>> modernist poetry was nothing but 100 or so small journals, put out and >>>> read by perhaps 10,000 people. But again, as I'd say, the internet
    changed everything. Not only do today's poets have access to a vast
    audience online; they even have self-publication, with the result that >>>> the academics don't even have a monopoly in their totemic symbols, the >>>> physical books and magazines.

    When I talk of metaphorically burning books (and/or poets) I am not speaking out of jealousy, but out of a desire to bring about a literary form of enantiodromia wherein traditional verse is re-established as poetry and modern verse is removed to
    its proper categorization of "poetic prose."

    Ideally, I would like both forms to co-exist -- but until such a time comes about, I shall continue to advocate the "burning" of texts, journals, and poetic forms that prevent traditional verse from flourishing.



    No form of literature prevents another from flourishing. Elites (or

    snobs) in one form may actively try to do so (and I think that little

    poetics text I started this off with is a good example of that snobbery

    and nothing but), but all that's needed is for the world to stop paying

    attention to that. And that's what's happened to the erstwhile academic

    gatekeepers over the last quarter-century.

    "The times they are a changing...!!" ---Bob Dylan

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From W.Dockery@21:1/5 to George J. Dance on Mon Aug 15 06:08:46 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    George J. Dance wrote:

    General-Zod wrote:
    George J. Dance wrote:

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...]
    https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html


    Cool, second read


    I am glad you're a fan of Nash, because this is a big moment. You see
    Nash died in 1971, meaning his poems went into the public domain last
    Jan. 1. Accordingly, this is his first time on the blog, and perhaps the >>> first time he's been published legally in years.

    His poetry is all over the web, but mainly on sites in the U.S., where
    it will still be copyrighted for years; but the publisher hasn't kept
    his books in print, so it's unlikely to challenge those bootleg copies.

    Again, good back story.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From W-Dockery@21:1/5 to Zod on Tue Aug 16 14:49:05 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    Zod wrote:

    George J. Dance wrote:

    On 2022-05-04 11:58 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:

    This is something I enjoyed reading.


    I still remember the first time I was confronted with "modern" poetry (long before I ever dreamed of penning any poetry of my own), and my inability to understand how it was supposed to be the same literary form as the poetry I'd known and loved
    since early childhood.

    Poetry had always been defined as having rhyme and meter.

    Not "always". Older poetry "Greek" to "Anglo-Saxon" had meter (in its >>>>> own fashion) but not rhyme. Rhyme (and our concept of meter) began in >>>>> Italy, and while English poets had been using it since Chaucer, it was >>>>> still quite controversial in the early Tudor period. So you can say it's >>>>> been around since "the beginning"

    Blank verse, which kept only meter, was a sub-division of poetry.

    But modern verse, which eliminates both the rhyme and the meter no longer has either of the defining characteristics of poetry.

    This does not in any way imply that modern verse is inferior (or superior) to poetry. It is saying that they are two different literary forms.


    Unfortunately, by appropriating the name of "poetry" for itself, modern verse rendered traditional poetry obsolete.


    The concept that's been lost isn't that of "poetry", but of "verse" -- >>>>> literature written in meter. As evidence, here's the traditional concept >>>>> of verse, from PPP:
    "A verse is formally a line of poetry written in meter. However, the >>>>> word has come to mean poetry in general (or sometimes even non-poetry) >>>>> written in lines of a regular metrical pattern."

    And here's the public understanding of "verse", from Wikipedia:
    "In the countable sense, a verse is formally a single metrical line in a >>>>> poetic composition. However, verse has come to represent any division or >>>>> grouping of words in a poetic composition, with groupings traditionally >>>>> having been referred to as stanzas."

    The two different literary forms are poetry in verse (or "verse") and >>>>> poetry without verse ("open form"). But there's no line between them, >>>>> no; a poet can use both, even in the same poem. So there's a lot of
    hybrid poetry as well. (The paradigm example is Eliot, who used rhyme >>>>> and meter, but not use in the normal way, mixing up his meters
    willy-nilly and throwing in a lot of unrhymed lines in amongst the
    rhymed ones.)

    If you look at any of the poetry journals at your library, you'll find that traditional (rhymed-metered) verse is nowhere to be found.

    Modern and traditional verse should have existed side-by-side, as related forms of literature -- as they do in "A Year of Sundays." However, in the academic and literary world, the former has entirely supplanted the latter.

    That readers still appreciate traditional can be determined by the fact that traditional poetry collections by Donne, Shakespeare, Keats, Poe, et al., are continuously in print. Yet the academic prejudice for modern verse has blocked any new
    traditional poetry from being published -- effectively killing it as a literary form.


    I think that has definitely changed, and again that's the internet. For >>>>> a while after WWII academics did successfully serve as gatekeepers: late >>>>> modernist poetry was nothing but 100 or so small journals, put out and >>>>> read by perhaps 10,000 people. But again, as I'd say, the internet
    changed everything. Not only do today's poets have access to a vast
    audience online; they even have self-publication, with the result that >>>>> the academics don't even have a monopoly in their totemic symbols, the >>>>> physical books and magazines.

    When I talk of metaphorically burning books (and/or poets) I am not speaking out of jealousy, but out of a desire to bring about a literary form of enantiodromia wherein traditional verse is re-established as poetry and modern verse is removed to
    its proper categorization of "poetic prose."

    Ideally, I would like both forms to co-exist -- but until such a time comes about, I shall continue to advocate the "burning" of texts, journals, and poetic forms that prevent traditional verse from flourishing.



    No form of literature prevents another from flourishing. Elites (or

    snobs) in one form may actively try to do so (and I think that little

    poetics text I started this off with is a good example of that snobbery >>>
    and nothing but), but all that's needed is for the world to stop paying >>>
    attention to that. And that's what's happened to the erstwhile academic >>>
    gatekeepers over the last quarter-century.

    "The times they are a changing...!!" ---Bob Dylan

    Always.

    🙂

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From W.Dockery@21:1/5 to Zod on Tue Aug 23 02:55:58 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    Zod wrote:

    Will Dockery wrote:

    Response from George Dance attempting to clear up Pendragon's confusion:

    https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    George J. Dance wrote:
    On 2022-05-05 11:03 a.m., Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
    On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:48:57 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
    Were you asleep in the 1990s-2000s, Pendragon?

    Love it or hate it, the hip-hop and rap influence on the current poetry scene is real.

    Look it up.

    We were discussing the change from traditional to modern poetry, Donkey, and the subsequent redefinition of poetry (abandonment of rhymed-metered verse).

    No, we'd moved on from that and were talking about the rediscovery of
    rhyme (beginning in the 1980s).

    <q>

    I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these >>>> later years.

    I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
    the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
    influence on your doing that.

    I think perhaps the [advent] of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring
    on the changes as well.....
    </q>

    Will, of course, was talking about himself and his own discovery of
    rhyme. Zod was pointing out that the former didn't happen in a vacuum;
    Will's pesonal evolution was happening in, and reflective of, a general
    popular trend in poetry post-1980.

    1) Hip-hop and rap did not appear until long after the change had taken place.
    2) Hip-hop and rap rely heavily on rhyme and meter, and would represent a popular movement to restore traditional poetry.

    Exactly what Zod was saying. The hip-hop movement didn't occur in a
    vacuum, though; there were other factors behind the rediscovery of
    rhyme. The most important, academically, was the rise of New Formalism,
    which was a movement of poetics as much as poetry.

    But the biggest influence, I'd say, was as always the internet. Suddenly
    (over 25 or so years, or just the blink of an eye in terms of the
    tradition), public domain poetry went from a few dusty books in
    second-hand shelves, that hardly anyone even noticed much less bought,
    to being seen and read by millions.

    You and your Stink are obviously unaware of both the history of modern poetry and of the history of poetry in general.


    No, that looks like a case of misunderstanding.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ


    Again, I thank you for setting the record straight on this here matter.....

    Pendragon saw his error, which is why he STFU.

    🙂

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From W.Dockery@21:1/5 to Zod on Fri Aug 26 08:21:13 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    Zod wrote:

    Will Dockery wrote:

    Zod wrote:

    George J. Dance wrote:

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...]
    https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html

    Love ole Ogden Nash....!


    He did have his moments.

    🙂

    i like his poetry quite a lots......

    A bit too much comedy for me, usually.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From W-Dockery@21:1/5 to All on Mon Aug 29 05:01:22 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    Response from George Dance attempting to clear up Pendragon's confusion:

    https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------- George J. Dance wrote:
    On 2022-05-05 11:03 a.m., Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
    On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:48:57 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
    Were you asleep in the 1990s-2000s, Pendragon?

    Love it or hate it, the hip-hop and rap influence on the current poetry scene is real.

    Look it up.

    We were discussing the change from traditional to modern poetry, Donkey, and the subsequent redefinition of poetry (abandonment of rhymed-metered verse).

    No, we'd moved on from that and were talking about the rediscovery of
    rhyme (beginning in the 1980s).



    I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these >>> later years.

    I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
    the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
    influence on your doing that.

    I think perhaps the [advent] of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring
    on the changes as well.....


    Will, of course, was talking about himself and his own discovery of
    rhyme. Zod was pointing out that the former didn't happen in a vacuum;
    Will's pesonal evolution was happening in, and reflective of, a general popular trend in poetry post-1980.

    1) Hip-hop and rap did not appear until long after the change had taken place.
    2) Hip-hop and rap rely heavily on rhyme and meter, and would represent a popular movement to restore traditional poetry.

    Exactly what Zod was saying. The hip-hop movement didn't occur in a
    vacuum, though; there were other factors behind the rediscovery of
    rhyme. The most important, academically, was the rise of New Formalism,
    which was a movement of poetics as much as poetry.

    But the biggest influence, I'd say, was as always the internet. Suddenly (over 25 or so years, or just the blink of an eye in terms of the
    tradition), public domain poetry went from a few dusty books in
    second-hand shelves, that hardly anyone even noticed much less bought,
    to being seen and read by millions.

    You and your Stink are obviously unaware of both the history of modern poetry and of the history of poetry in general.


    No, that looks like a case of misunderstanding.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ

    Lest we forget.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From W.Dockery@21:1/5 to Zod on Wed Aug 31 12:19:31 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    Zod wrote:

    Will Dockery wrote:

    Response from George Dance attempting to clear up Pendragon's confusion:

    https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    George J. Dance wrote:
    On 2022-05-05 11:03 a.m., Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
    On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:48:57 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
    Were you asleep in the 1990s-2000s, Pendragon?

    Love it or hate it, the hip-hop and rap influence on the current poetry scene is real.

    Look it up.

    We were discussing the change from traditional to modern poetry, Donkey, and the subsequent redefinition of poetry (abandonment of rhymed-metered verse).

    No, we'd moved on from that and were talking about the rediscovery of
    rhyme (beginning in the 1980s).

    <q>

    I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these >>>> later years.

    I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
    the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
    influence on your doing that.

    I think perhaps the [advent] of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring
    on the changes as well.....
    </q>

    Will, of course, was talking about himself and his own discovery of
    rhyme. Zod was pointing out that the former didn't happen in a vacuum;
    Will's pesonal evolution was happening in, and reflective of, a general
    popular trend in poetry post-1980.

    1) Hip-hop and rap did not appear until long after the change had taken place.
    2) Hip-hop and rap rely heavily on rhyme and meter, and would represent a popular movement to restore traditional poetry.

    Exactly what Zod was saying. The hip-hop movement didn't occur in a
    vacuum, though; there were other factors behind the rediscovery of
    rhyme. The most important, academically, was the rise of New Formalism,
    which was a movement of poetics as much as poetry.

    But the biggest influence, I'd say, was as always the internet. Suddenly
    (over 25 or so years, or just the blink of an eye in terms of the
    tradition), public domain poetry went from a few dusty books in
    second-hand shelves, that hardly anyone even noticed much less bought,
    to being seen and read by millions.

    You and your Stink are obviously unaware of both the history of modern poetry and of the history of poetry in general.


    No, that looks like a case of misunderstanding.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ


    Again, I thank you for setting the record straight on this here matter.....


    Or at least in the direction of setting the record straight.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Victor H.@21:1/5 to Will Dockery on Fri Sep 2 21:24:28 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    Will Dockery wrote:

    Zod wrote:

    George J. Dance wrote:

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...]
    https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html

    Love ole Ogden Nash....!


    He did have his moments.

    🙂

    Yep

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From W-Dockery@21:1/5 to All on Tue Sep 6 03:24:16 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    Again, the response from George Dance attempting to clear up Pendragon's confusion:

    https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ

    ---------------------------
    George J. Dance wrote:
    On 2022-05-05 11:03 a.m., Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
    On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:48:57 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
    Were you asleep in the 1990s-2000s, Pendragon?

    Love it or hate it, the hip-hop and rap influence on the current poetry scene is real.

    Look it up.

    We were discussing the change from traditional to modern poetry, Donkey, and the subsequent redefinition of poetry (abandonment of rhymed-metered verse).

    No, we'd moved on from that and were talking about the rediscovery of
    rhyme (beginning in the 1980s).

    <q>

    I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these >>>> later years.

    I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
    the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
    influence on your doing that.

    I think perhaps the [advent] of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring
    on the changes as well.....
    </q>

    Will, of course, was talking about himself and his own discovery of
    rhyme. Zod was pointing out that the former didn't happen in a vacuum;
    Will's pesonal evolution was happening in, and reflective of, a general
    popular trend in poetry post-1980.

    1) Hip-hop and rap did not appear until long after the change had taken place.
    2) Hip-hop and rap rely heavily on rhyme and meter, and would represent a popular movement to restore traditional poetry.

    Exactly what Zod was saying. The hip-hop movement didn't occur in a
    vacuum, though; there were other factors behind the rediscovery of
    rhyme. The most important, academically, was the rise of New Formalism,
    which was a movement of poetics as much as poetry.

    But the biggest influence, I'd say, was as always the internet. Suddenly
    (over 25 or so years, or just the blink of an eye in terms of the
    tradition), public domain poetry went from a few dusty books in
    second-hand shelves, that hardly anyone even noticed much less bought,
    to being seen and read by millions.

    You and your Stink are obviously unaware of both the history of modern poetry and of the history of poetry in general.


    No, that looks like a case of misunderstanding.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ

    Again, lest we forget.

    🙂

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From General-Zod@21:1/5 to Will Dockery on Thu Sep 8 21:27:23 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    Will Dockery wrote:

    Zod wrote:

    George J. Dance wrote:

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...]
    https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html

    Love ole Ogden Nash....!


    He did have his moments.

    🙂


    Yep....

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From W.Dockery@21:1/5 to General-Zod on Thu Sep 15 02:26:50 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    General-Zod wrote:

    Will Dockery wrote:

    Zod wrote:

    George J. Dance wrote:

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...]
    https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html

    Love ole Ogden Nash....!


    Good evening, Zod, agreed.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From W-Dockery@21:1/5 to George Dance on Sun Sep 18 03:33:08 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    George Dance wrote:

    https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------- George J. Dance wrote:
    On 2022-05-05 11:03 a.m., Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
    On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:48:57 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
    Were you asleep in the 1990s-2000s, Pendragon?

    Love it or hate it, the hip-hop and rap influence on the current poetry scene is real.

    Look it up.

    We were discussing the change from traditional to modern poetry, Donkey, and the subsequent redefinition of poetry (abandonment of rhymed-metered verse).

    No, we'd moved on from that and were talking about the rediscovery of
    rhyme (beginning in the 1980s).



    I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these >>> later years.

    I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
    the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
    influence on your doing that.

    I think perhaps the [advent] of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring
    on the changes as well.....


    Will, of course, was talking about himself and his own discovery of
    rhyme. Zod was pointing out that the former didn't happen in a vacuum;
    Will's pesonal evolution was happening in, and reflective of, a general popular trend in poetry post-1980.

    1) Hip-hop and rap did not appear until long after the change had taken place.
    2) Hip-hop and rap rely heavily on rhyme and meter, and would represent a popular movement to restore traditional poetry.

    Exactly what Zod was saying. The hip-hop movement didn't occur in a
    vacuum, though; there were other factors behind the rediscovery of
    rhyme. The most important, academically, was the rise of New Formalism,
    which was a movement of poetics as much as poetry.

    But the biggest influence, I'd say, was as always the internet. Suddenly (over 25 or so years, or just the blink of an eye in terms of the
    tradition), public domain poetry went from a few dusty books in
    second-hand shelves, that hardly anyone even noticed much less bought,
    to being seen and read by millions.

    You and your Stink are obviously unaware of both the history of modern poetry and of the history of poetry in general.


    No, that looks like a case of misunderstanding.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ


    Well put, George.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From General-Zod@21:1/5 to Will Dockery on Wed Sep 21 20:53:01 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    Will Dockery wrote:

    George Dance wrote:

    https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    George J. Dance wrote:
    On 2022-05-05 11:03 a.m., Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
    On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:48:57 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
    Were you asleep in the 1990s-2000s, Pendragon?

    Love it or hate it, the hip-hop and rap influence on the current poetry scene is real.

    Look it up.

    We were discussing the change from traditional to modern poetry, Donkey, and the subsequent redefinition of poetry (abandonment of rhymed-metered verse).

    No, we'd moved on from that and were talking about the rediscovery of
    rhyme (beginning in the 1980s).

    <q>

    I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these >>>> later years.

    I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
    the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
    influence on your doing that.

    I think perhaps the [advent] of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring
    on the changes as well.....
    </q>

    Will, of course, was talking about himself and his own discovery of
    rhyme. Zod was pointing out that the former didn't happen in a vacuum;
    Will's pesonal evolution was happening in, and reflective of, a general
    popular trend in poetry post-1980.

    1) Hip-hop and rap did not appear until long after the change had taken place.
    2) Hip-hop and rap rely heavily on rhyme and meter, and would represent a popular movement to restore traditional poetry.

    Exactly what Zod was saying. The hip-hop movement didn't occur in a
    vacuum, though; there were other factors behind the rediscovery of
    rhyme. The most important, academically, was the rise of New Formalism,
    which was a movement of poetics as much as poetry.

    But the biggest influence, I'd say, was as always the internet. Suddenly
    (over 25 or so years, or just the blink of an eye in terms of the
    tradition), public domain poetry went from a few dusty books in
    second-hand shelves, that hardly anyone even noticed much less bought,
    to being seen and read by millions.

    You and your Stink are obviously unaware of both the history of modern poetry and of the history of poetry in general.


    No, that looks like a case of misunderstanding.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ


    Well put, George.


    Seconded...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Victor H.@21:1/5 to George J. Dance on Fri Oct 7 19:23:03 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    George J. Dance wrote:

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...] https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html

    Again.... lovely poetry....

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From W-Dockery@21:1/5 to General-Zod on Sat Oct 8 16:16:29 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    General-Zod wrote:
    George Dance wrote:

    https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    George J. Dance wrote:
    On 2022-05-05 11:03 a.m., Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
    On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:48:57 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
    Were you asleep in the 1990s-2000s, Pendragon?

    Love it or hate it, the hip-hop and rap influence on the current poetry scene is real.

    Look it up.

    We were discussing the change from traditional to modern poetry, Donkey, and the subsequent redefinition of poetry (abandonment of rhymed-metered verse).

    No, we'd moved on from that and were talking about the rediscovery of
    rhyme (beginning in the 1980s).

    <q>

    I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these >>>>> later years.

    I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
    the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
    influence on your doing that.

    I think perhaps the [advent] of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring
    on the changes as well.....
    </q>

    Will, of course, was talking about himself and his own discovery of
    rhyme. Zod was pointing out that the former didn't happen in a vacuum;
    Will's pesonal evolution was happening in, and reflective of, a general
    popular trend in poetry post-1980.

    1) Hip-hop and rap did not appear until long after the change had taken place.
    2) Hip-hop and rap rely heavily on rhyme and meter, and would represent a popular movement to restore traditional poetry.

    Exactly what Zod was saying. The hip-hop movement didn't occur in a
    vacuum, though; there were other factors behind the rediscovery of
    rhyme. The most important, academically, was the rise of New Formalism,
    which was a movement of poetics as much as poetry.

    But the biggest influence, I'd say, was as always the internet. Suddenly >>> (over 25 or so years, or just the blink of an eye in terms of the
    tradition), public domain poetry went from a few dusty books in
    second-hand shelves, that hardly anyone even noticed much less bought,
    to being seen and read by millions.

    You and your Stink are obviously unaware of both the history of modern poetry and of the history of poetry in general.


    No, that looks like a case of misunderstanding.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ



    Well put... Seconded...

    Good morning, my friend, agreed.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From W-Dockery@21:1/5 to Zod on Mon Oct 10 16:51:10 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    Zod wrote:

    George J. Dance wrote:

    Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

    Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
    [...]
    April golden, April cloudy,
    Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
    [...]
    https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html

    Again.... lovely poetry....

    Something we can probably all agree on.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rocky Stoneberg@21:1/5 to Will Dockery on Mon Oct 10 22:11:49 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    Will Dockery wrote:

    Response from George Dance attempting to clear up Pendragon's confusion:

    https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------- George J. Dance wrote:
    On 2022-05-05 11:03 a.m., Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
    On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:48:57 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
    Were you asleep in the 1990s-2000s, Pendragon?

    Love it or hate it, the hip-hop and rap influence on the current poetry scene is real.

    Look it up.

    We were discussing the change from traditional to modern poetry, Donkey, and the subsequent redefinition of poetry (abandonment of rhymed-metered verse).

    No, we'd moved on from that and were talking about the rediscovery of
    rhyme (beginning in the 1980s).



    I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these >>> later years.

    I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
    the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
    influence on your doing that.

    I think perhaps the [advent] of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring
    on the changes as well.....


    Will, of course, was talking about himself and his own discovery of
    rhyme. Zod was pointing out that the former didn't happen in a vacuum;
    Will's pesonal evolution was happening in, and reflective of, a general popular trend in poetry post-1980.

    1) Hip-hop and rap did not appear until long after the change had taken place.
    2) Hip-hop and rap rely heavily on rhyme and meter, and would represent a popular movement to restore traditional poetry.

    Exactly what Zod was saying. The hip-hop movement didn't occur in a
    vacuum, though; there were other factors behind the rediscovery of
    rhyme. The most important, academically, was the rise of New Formalism,
    which was a movement of poetics as much as poetry.

    But the biggest influence, I'd say, was as always the internet. Suddenly (over 25 or so years, or just the blink of an eye in terms of the
    tradition), public domain poetry went from a few dusty books in
    second-hand shelves, that hardly anyone even noticed much less bought,
    to being seen and read by millions.

    You and your Stink are obviously unaware of both the history of modern poetry and of the history of poetry in general.


    No, that looks like a case of misunderstanding.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ


    Quite rightly

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From W.Dockery@21:1/5 to Zod on Thu Oct 13 15:55:57 2022
    XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments

    Zod wrote:

    Will Dockery wrote:

    Response from George Dance attempting to clear up Pendragon's confusion:

    https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    George J. Dance wrote:
    On 2022-05-05 11:03 a.m., Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
    On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:48:57 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
    Were you asleep in the 1990s-2000s, Pendragon?

    Love it or hate it, the hip-hop and rap influence on the current poetry scene is real.

    Look it up.

    We were discussing the change from traditional to modern poetry, Donkey, and the subsequent redefinition of poetry (abandonment of rhymed-metered verse).

    No, we'd moved on from that and were talking about the rediscovery of
    rhyme (beginning in the 1980s).

    <q>

    I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these >>>> later years.

    I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
    the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
    influence on your doing that.

    I think perhaps the [advent] of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring
    on the changes as well.....
    </q>

    Will, of course, was talking about himself and his own discovery of
    rhyme. Zod was pointing out that the former didn't happen in a vacuum;
    Will's pesonal evolution was happening in, and reflective of, a general
    popular trend in poetry post-1980.

    1) Hip-hop and rap did not appear until long after the change had taken place.
    2) Hip-hop and rap rely heavily on rhyme and meter, and would represent a popular movement to restore traditional poetry.

    Exactly what Zod was saying. The hip-hop movement didn't occur in a
    vacuum, though; there were other factors behind the rediscovery of
    rhyme. The most important, academically, was the rise of New Formalism,
    which was a movement of poetics as much as poetry.

    But the biggest influence, I'd say, was as always the internet. Suddenly
    (over 25 or so years, or just the blink of an eye in terms of the
    tradition), public domain poetry went from a few dusty books in
    second-hand shelves, that hardly anyone even noticed much less bought,
    to being seen and read by millions.

    You and your Stink are obviously unaware of both the history of modern poetry and of the history of poetry in general.


    No, that looks like a case of misunderstanding.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ


    Quite rightly


    Good afternoon, agreed.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)