Hullo rasfc'ers, where did everyone go? Have we changed venue?
The problem is that everything I write is from exactly the same point of vi= ew and when the story requires a change, I can't do it. I've been looking = over whatever fiction books happened to be sitting around and studying, muc= h more carefully than ever before, how different point of view effects are = achieved. =20
On Tuesday, August 21, 2018 at 10:50:41 PM UTC-7, Johnny Tindalos wrote:it.
Hullo rasfc'ers, where did everyone go? Have we changed venue?
I'm dropping back in after a hiatus of nearly ten years...I stopped posting because I'd just run out of things to say. I never did learn how to write, either.
I took up one of my old story beginnings last week and started working on it again, and I got bogged down about two pages in. This time, I identified a problem in my style that I never noticed before, and right now I'm thinking about how to overcome
The problem is that everything I write is from exactly the same point of view and when the story requires a change, I can't do it. I've been looking over whatever fiction books happened to be sitting around and studying, much more carefully than everbefore, how different point of view effects are achieved.
On 12/12/18 5:38 PM, bobthrollop@gmail.com wrote:
On Tuesday, August 21, 2018 at 10:50:41 PM UTC-7, Johnny Tindalos
wrote:
Hullo rasfc'ers, where did everyone go? Have we changed venue?
The problem is that everything I write is from exactly the same
point of view and when the story requires a change, I can't do it.
I've been looking over whatever fiction books happened to be sitting
around and studying, much more carefully than ever before, how
different point of view effects are achieved.
Whether that's a PROBLEM depends on what that point of view is, I
guess. I mean, the entirety of any first-person novel, of which there
are many, is told from that one character's point of view. There's
never a change of point of view, because that's the POINT of the
first-person novel; you see things as they are seen from the one main character's (or sometimes a sidekick of the main character) point of
view.
I always think of "Point of View" as "where is the camera and
microphone located?". In First Person, it's located right on the head
of the main character. You can see only what they see, know only what
they know, etc. In Third Person, the camera is focused on the current
PoV character, but from a remove.
So, anyone here up to bearing me think out loud, offering the odd
comment?
...it
occurred to me that I always use the same point-of-view and voice to
write things like this and it really doesn't work.
On 12/12/18 5:38 PM, bobthrollop@gmail.com wrote:
On Tuesday, August 21, 2018 at 10:50:41 PM UTC-7, Johnny Tindalos wrote:
Hullo rasfc'ers, where did everyone go? Have we changed venue?
I'm dropping back in after a hiatus of nearly ten years...I stopped posting because I'd just run out of things to say. I never did learn how to write, either.
I took up one of my old story beginnings last week and started working on it again, and I got bogged down about two pages in. This time, I identified a problem in my style that I never noticed before...
On 14 Dec 2018 "A. Tina Hall" <A_Tina_Hall@kruemel.org> wrote:
So, anyone here up to bearing me think out loud, offering the odd
comment?
Ramble away. We've all got "mark read" filters we can deploy if we
get bored.
On 12/12/18 5:38 PM, bobthrollop@gmail.com wrote:
I took up one of my old story beginnings last week and started
working on it again, and I got bogged down about two pages in.
This time, I identified a problem in my style that I never noticed
before...
Thanks for the suggestions so far, although I'm not really asking for
advice here.
So...what does that look like? I just made up a new location for her
to visit. She'll meet some good friends there. The Chapter 3 scene
is not the same place as Chapter 1. But I just made the new place
up and I'm having trouble conceptualizing what it's even like. But
what really set me off is that when I started to write the
description, it occurred to me that I always use the same
point-of-view and voice to write things like this and it really
doesn't work.
Even suggestions that won't work can help a lot.
16 Dec 2018 "A. Tina Hall" <A_Tina_Hall@kruemel.org> wrote:
Even suggestions that won't work can help a lot.
Comments that are completely off base are quite useful, once you
figure out why they are off base,
or how the reader came to think that your far-future war story took
place in peacetime in the distant past.
Even suggestions that won't work can help a lot.
On 16.12.18, Brian Pickrell wrote:
On 12/12/18 5:38 PM,
I took up one of my old story beginnings last week and started
working on it again, and I got bogged down about two pages in.
This time, I identified a problem in my style that I never noticed
before...
Thanks for the suggestions so far, although I'm not really asking for advice here.
Just thinking out loud too? :)
I know talking about it can help, will comments be welcome, or would you rather not have replies?
On 16 Dec 2018 "A. Tina Hall" <A_Tina_Hall@kruemel.org> wrote:
Even suggestions that won't work can help a lot.
For me, suggestions generally fall into three categories:
1) Straightforward answer to the problem. This is very, very, very
rare, but it can happen.
2) Worse than useless. If I say "this is the situation, what can
happen next?" and someone says "that situation stinks, it should be
+this+ way." Yeah, I'm going to delete 30,000 words because someone
thinks my 50-word synopsis of it doesn't parallel their writing
enough to be readable.
3) Wrong but great. Most suggestions fall into this category.
Thinking about why it's wrong makes me dig deeper into aspects I was overlooking or hadn't delved into very deeply. It gives me a deeper perspective of the world or characters. Even if that perspective
doesn't yield an immediate answer to the problem, it helps frame the
region of space which holds the answer.
On December 15, 2018 Tina Hall wrote:
On 16.12.18, Brian Pickrell wrote:
Thanks for the suggestions so far, although I'm not really asking
for advice here.
Just thinking out loud too? :)
I know talking about it can help, will comments be welcome, or would
you rather not have replies?
Oh, it can't hurt.
What I have actually been doing, since the last posts, is reading
Virginia Woolf (Of course! you say--why didn't he think of that a
long time ago?) Posting here prompted me to check in on Patricia
Wrede's blog, and she mentioned Ursula K. Le Guin's _Steering the
Craft_ which gave an approving citation of a character study from a
Woolf novel, so I got a completely different one of her novels
because it was available at Half Price Books...Virginia Woolf has her strengths and weaknesses, which may or may not ever bear on anything
I do. At least her near-magical way of setting a scene is less
magical now that I'm starting to understand it.
A follow-on question to ask myself is: why did I begin to care about
the style of authors like Woolf when I never did before?
On 18.12.18, Brian Pickrell <bobthrollop # gmail.com> wrote:
On December 15, 2018 Tina Hall wrote:
On 16.12.18, Brian Pickrell wrote:
Thanks for the suggestions so far, although I'm not really asking
for advice here.
Just thinking out loud too? :)
I know talking about it can help, will comments be welcome, or would
you rather not have replies?
Oh, it can't hurt.
Great. :)
What I have actually been doing, since the last posts, is reading
Virginia Woolf (Of course! you say--why didn't he think of that a
long time ago?) Posting here prompted me to check in on Patricia
Wrede's blog, and she mentioned Ursula K. Le Guin's _Steering the
Craft_ which gave an approving citation of a character study from a
Woolf novel, so I got a completely different one of her novels
because it was available at Half Price Books...Virginia Woolf has her strengths and weaknesses, which may or may not ever bear on anything
I do. At least her near-magical way of setting a scene is less
magical now that I'm starting to understand it.
Interesting. Not that I know any of those books. :) It's cool though
that you found something that helps.
On December 18, 2018 A. Tina Hall wrote:
On 18.12.18, Brian Pickrell <bobthrollop # gmail.com> wrote:
On December 15, 2018 Tina Hall wrote:
What I have actually been doing, since the last posts, is reading
Virginia Woolf
I remember once reading a comment about sword-and-sorcery novels to
the effect that the world of the story seemed to end six feet from the
path the heroes were on; this book reads exactly like that.
Conclusion: this sort of description won't do for any story that
depends on setting or action, i.e. I'm not missing much.
[...]
My motivation is that I'm trying to make myself look at the work in
progress through other eyes. The scene I'm lately having difficulty with--why is it in the story, and what needs to happen to E. in the
scene?
I'm struggling to describe just what needs to happen for story
purposes; how it will play out; and consequently, how it will be
described. And make all that consistent with the evolving character
arcs.
I decided that my heroine needs a reason to get involved in the
struggles that follow. This is about the third chapter, and the
second plot twist. She was introduced to a foreign world in the first,
and in the second she grew dissatisfied with her mundane life. Now,
she gets a chance to go back to that world and a cause to fight for.
So...what does that look like? I just made up a new location for her
to visit. She'll meet some good friends there. The Chapter 3 scene
is not the same place as Chapter 1. But I just made the new place up
and I'm having trouble conceptualizing what it's even like. But what
really set me off is that when I started to write the description, it occurred to me that I always use the same point-of-view and voice to
write things like this and it really doesn't work.
More thinking out loud about Chapter 3.
I've rethought the "what needs to happen" plan for Chapter 3 to be
more strategic. E. will still "meet some friends," but before she
can connect emotionally, she needs to let her guard down as
completely as possible. I'm going to tell her that this is a short
vacation, perhaps just a weekend, from her regular life and she can
just lay back and enjoy the luxury.
(No chance of anything going wrong with that plan, no, sir! This is
all going to go like clockwork...)
So now, instead of the flat farmlands and boring houses that first
popped into my head, I'm putting together an idealized vacation spot
for her to drop in to.
It starts as the sort of paradise that's implied in travel brochures
and cruise ship packages: warm weather, luxurious lodgings with
plentiful servants, beautiful scenery. Shopping and other idle-time activities like massages are there too, although as a Midwestern girl
E. isn't too comfortable with throwing money around.
Further in, she'll meet the fascinating local culture and history as
well as the good companions you'd like on a perfect vacation. But
those things can't just be made up on the spot; they have to actually
BE interesting. They're the actual background and characters of the
story.
-+-
One thing about this paradise that's going to keep bugging me,
though: it's always driven me crazy the way that characters in
action movies can get dumped in a foreign country with no
preparation, and somehow never lack for a place to stay and money to
live on. Now I'm going to be guilty of the same thing.
On 23.12.18, Brian P. wrote:[...]
My mind can't help comparing that to the characters I want to continue
the story of, and it stands out how very human yours is. :) (Or how much mine are not, they'd not know what to do with any of that.)
Not to get too distracted, it sounds like a good idea. Certainly draws
an image in my mind. :)
Planning in advance, how do you do that, do you make notes? Draw charts? Just imagine it in your head? Something else?
[...] it's always driven me crazy the way that characters in
action movies can get dumped in a foreign country with no
preparation, and somehow never lack for a place to stay and money to
live on. Now I'm going to be guilty of the same thing.
Can't she have won the trip, or some mysterious source gifted it to her?
Is there someone who wants her to go there, and thus arranged for it in
the most inconspicious way you can think of?
(Apart from you, I mean. :) )
So now, instead of the flat farmlands and boring houses that first popped into my head, I'm putting together an idealized vacation spot for her to drop in to[...]
On Saturday, December 22, 2018 A. Tina Hall wrote:
On 23.12.18, Brian P. wrote:
[...]
Not to get too distracted, it sounds like a good idea. Certainly
draws an image in my mind. :)
Don't try to adapt my ideas too literally. [...]
Planning in advance, how do you do that, do you make notes? Draw
charts? Just imagine it in your head? Something else?
I'm the last person you should ask, since I've never done it
successfully. In general, I plan by writing outlines, but I've never
figured out how to follow them once written.
[...] it's always driven me crazy the way that characters in
action movies can get dumped in a foreign country with no
preparation, and somehow never lack for a place to stay and money
to live on. Now I'm going to be guilty of the same thing.
Can't she have won the trip, or some mysterious source gifted it to
her?
Is there someone who wants her to go there, and thus arranged for it
in the most inconspicious way you can think of?
(Apart from you, I mean. :) )
Explaining it in the story is relatively easy. But that's different
than justifying it as an author. I'm sure there's a good expression
for the two concepts, but I can't think what it is; can anyone help
me out?
On Saturday, December 22, 2018 at 10:06:07 AM UTC-8, Brian P. wrote:
I guess talking to myself online does some good after all.
Planning in advance, how do you do that, do you make notes? Draw
charts? Just imagine it in your head? Something else?
I'm the last person you should ask, since I've never done it
successfully. In general, I plan by writing outlines, but I've never figured out how to follow them once written.
So you write outlines, and then start writing and just write what
happens, kind of?
Even if it doesn't work out as planned, I'm still curious, and would try
it if I can at all. :)
Hm. For me, with anything I find doubtful, justification comes from
having a reason I can accept in the story. If I can't have that, I must find some other way to resolve it, tweak things until I'm satisfied.
Like, why did X not warn Y? That would bug me, unless I find a really
good reason that makes sense for the characters...
On Tuesday, December 25, 2018, A. Tina Hall wrote:
I'm the last person you should ask, since I've never done it
successfully. In general, I plan by writing outlines, but I've
never figured out how to follow them once written.
So you write outlines, and then start writing and just write what
happens, kind of?
Often I do, but the results are usually poor until I've rewritten it
six or seven times. Too much irrelevant digression, and I fall into
that as-it-happens-to-the-viewpoint-character narrative voice that I mentioned I don't like.
I'm still working on the sequence I mentioned a few days ago, where
B. and E. go to a spot that they think will be a vacation. I've
dreamed up a nearly epic back story for the place, but for them to
think about it too much would kill story momentum. Maybe the
narrator will give the readers a quick rundown while the two
vacationers get ready for the pool party.
They've been transported back in time to a Bronze Age city just
experiencing the dawn of civilization. Everything these people do is
for the very first time. The air and water are very clean and the
forests and wild creatures are ancient and still unspoiled. E. has
talents that are of immense value here: she can read.
Should I tell what the hills and farmlands look like, or the color of
the sea? Do the people magically speak English, or is there a
language barrier?
Are any of the natives connected with the villain's evil plan, and if
they're already in contact with each other then what do I need B. for?
(He's in the story as an instigator, remember.) How much of this does
E. get a glimmer of before being interrupted by the characters she was originally intended to meet, who aren't from here at all?
Hm. For me, with anything I find doubtful, justification comes from
having a reason I can accept in the story. If I can't have that, I
must find some other way to resolve it, tweak things until I'm
satisfied.
Like, why did X not warn Y? That would bug me, unless I find a
really good reason that makes sense for the characters...
I don't require a well established reason, as long as the logical gap
is acknowledged. For instance, if X says, "I'm sorry, I guess I
should have warned you" or Y reflects that X can't be counted on to
speak up, then that's usually enough to keep it from bothering me.
Maybe it's time to come back and make this place inhabited again. >> The people who made it hard to be here are gone.
Unfortunately, I'm back again. We moved to Kansas City for better money,
and it's been a ferociously busy year. Mom and Dad moved from Sequim,
WA to Boise, ID in July, then Dad died in September. I've used all of
my leave for the last year on trips to Sequim and Boise to look after
family issues. I'm headed there again on the 18th, so the trips aren't >stopping.
Anyway, we've had a rough year, but we're getting ahead of the ball now.
Teri seems to like Kansas, and really likes our house here. My
daughter is taking community college classes full time, has a part time
job, and still lives at home (one of the major costs of college is
dorms, so she's building savings, and paying for her coursework while
living here, and it's working!).
I lost Eternal September for a time, and just got around to addressing
that. Not really sure why the server started playing dead, but I asked
for my password, they sent it, I reentered it right where it was saved >before, and lo and behold, you lovely people are all back again!
On Tuesday, August 21, 2018 at 10:50:41 PM UTC-7, Johnny Tindalos wrote:it.
Hullo rasfc'ers, where did everyone go? Have we changed venue?
I'm dropping back in after a hiatus of nearly ten years...I stopped posting because I'd just run out of things to say. I never did learn how to write, either.
I took up one of my old story beginnings last week and started working on it again, and I got bogged down about two pages in. This time, I identified a problem in my style that I never noticed before, and right now I'm thinking about how to overcome
The problem is that everything I write is from exactly the same point of view and when the story requires a change, I can't do it. I've been looking over whatever fiction books happened to be sitting around and studying, much more carefully than everbefore, how different point of view effects are achieved.
Maybe it's time to come back and make this place inhabited again. The people who made it hard to be here are gone.
In article <XnsA947A15C571C0JamaisVuUnrealEmaila@85.214.115.223>,
Johnny Tindalos <JamaisVu@UnrealEmail.arg> wrote:
"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in
news:pllbie$o4k$1@dont-email.me:
Maybe it's time to come back and make this place inhabited again.
The
people who made it hard to be here are gone.
Oh dear, was there an infestation?
Doctrinaire libertarians.
Would love it if some of the old regulars (or new people!) felt like returning too; I always lurked more than I posted but I miss spending
sunny weekend mornings peacefully catching up; rasfw was often
hillarious but the conversations here were the best.
I lost Eternal September for a time, and just got around to
addressing that.
My SF-blog-and-forum-fu is otherwise weak as a kitten who
ate too much lettuce...is there anything good on Reddit?
On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 14:51:47 -0000 (UTC)
Johnny Tindalos <JamaisVu@UnrealEmail.arg> wrote:
Would love it if some of the old regulars (or new people!) felt like
returning too; I always lurked more than I posted but I miss spending
sunny weekend mornings peacefully catching up; rasfw was often
hillarious but the conversations here were the best.
I kinda missed out on USENET during its heyday, so I'm all for a
revival since the World Wide Web no longer sparks joy -- and hasn't in
a long time.
(Particularly if you have to join something to respond to it,
sometimes even to read it.)
On Sat, 12 Jan 2019 14:26:07 -0600
Bill Swears <wswears@gci.net> wrote:
I lost Eternal September for a time, and just got around to
addressing that.
That's funny. I had just created an Eternal September account yesterday because I heard about the site from somebody on Mastodon.
On 2/26/2019 10:59 AM, Matthew Graybosch wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jan 2019 14:26:07 -0600I like eternal September. it's served me well for several years. I'm assuming that my move from Alaska to Kansas was the trigger to losing
Bill Swears <wswears@gci.net> wrote:
I lost Eternal September for a time, and just got around to
addressing that.
That's funny. I had just created an Eternal September account yesterday
because I heard about the site from somebody on Mastodon.
access, but can't really say.
I notice that my signature here is pretty worn out.
On 17/05/2019 00:42, Bill Swears wrote:
On 2/26/2019 10:59 AM, Matthew Graybosch wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jan 2019 14:26:07 -0600I like eternal September. it's served me well for several years. I'm
Bill Swears <wswears@gci.net> wrote:
I lost Eternal September for a time, and just got around to
addressing that.
That's funny. I had just created an Eternal September account yesterday
because I heard about the site from somebody on Mastodon.
assuming that my move from Alaska to Kansas was the trigger to losing
access, but can't really say.
I notice that my signature here is pretty worn out.
I only get around actually checking usenet when I have time. Which turns
out to be every few months when I visit my parents and they take care of
the kid for a while.
In article <56t5sf-qkd.ln1@Shorkyne.lodz.pl>,
John Geoffrey <gmkeros@gmail.com> wrote:
On 17/05/2019 00:42, Bill Swears wrote:
On 2/26/2019 10:59 AM, Matthew Graybosch wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jan 2019 14:26:07 -0600I like eternal September. it's served me well for several years. I'm
Bill Swears <wswears@gci.net> wrote:
I lost Eternal September for a time, and just got around to
addressing that.
That's funny. I had just created an Eternal September account yesterday >>>> because I heard about the site from somebody on Mastodon.
assuming that my move from Alaska to Kansas was the trigger to losing
access, but can't really say.
I notice that my signature here is pretty worn out.
I only get around actually checking usenet when I have time. Which turns
out to be every few months when I visit my parents and they take care of
the kid for a while.
Well, I check USENET at least once a day. But it's a rare day
when I see anything posted to this group. It was poisoned by
irrelevant real-world politics.
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