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TOPIC: This Week's Reading (book comments by Evelyn C. Leeper)
I find myself wondering about Latin. Where do the new words come
from that are needed in the official encyclicals?
Do Catholics
with no other common language converse in Latin?
(I did know
someone at work who had many years of Catholic education who said
that he once had a conversation in Latin with someone at a train
station in Italy.)
I miss the Latin Mass, but then, I understand Latin.
I've heard that Church Latin would have been incomprehensible to the
ancient Romans, due to misunderstandings about pronunciations. For
instance "Caesar" was pronounced "Kaiser" (which is where the Germans
got that word), and "veni, vidi, vici" was pronounced "weenee, weedee, >weesee." Which pronunciation is taught in schools today, and does it
differ between public schools and church schools? Thanks.
Keith F. Lynch <kfl@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
I've heard that Church Latin would have been incomprehensible to the >>ancient Romans, due to misunderstandings about pronunciations. For >>instance "Caesar" was pronounced "Kaiser" (which is where the Germans
got that word), and "veni, vidi, vici" was pronounced "weenee, weedee, >>weesee." Which pronunciation is taught in schools today, and does it >>differ between public schools and church schools? Thanks.
I can say that the pronounciations taught in schools today in England and in >Italy are very different.
Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
I miss the Latin Mass, but then, I understand Latin.
I've heard that Church Latin would have been incomprehensible to the
ancient Romans, due to misunderstandings about pronunciations. For
instance "Caesar" was pronounced "Kaiser" (which is where the Germans
got that word), and "veni, vidi, vici" was pronounced "weenee, weedee, weesee."
Keith F. Lynch <kfl@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
I've heard that Church Latin would have been incomprehensible to the
ancient Romans, due to misunderstandings about pronunciations. For
instance "Caesar" was pronounced "Kaiser" (which is where the Germans
got that word), and "veni, vidi, vici" was pronounced "weenee, weedee,
weesee." Which pronunciation is taught in schools today, and does it
differ between public schools and church schools? Thanks.
I can say that the pronounciations taught in schools today in England and in Italy are very different.
On 8/22/21 2:53 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Keith F. Lynch <kfl@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
I've heard that Church Latin would have been incomprehensible to the
ancient Romans, due to misunderstandings about pronunciations. For
instance "Caesar" was pronounced "Kaiser" (which is where the Germans
got that word), and "veni, vidi, vici" was pronounced "weenee, weedee,
weesee." Which pronunciation is taught in schools today, and does it
differ between public schools and church schools? Thanks.
I can say that the pronounciations taught in schools today in England and in >> Italy are very different.
My familiarity with Church Latin is mostly through classical music, >specifically the Mass and Requiem texts. The northern and southern
European pronunciations have noticeable differences. German choirs
pronounce "pacem" as "pahtzem," and Italian ones pronounce it as
"pahchem." Ancient Romans, if I'm getting this right, pronounced it
"pahkem."
Those pronunciations aren't "misunderstandings"; the pronunciation of
Latin just shifted over the centuries.
"Caesar" was pronounced roughly "Kah-es-ahr" in ancient Rome, so not the
same as "Kaiser" though close.
I saw a video claiming that the the Latin hard C sound has less of aunaspirated consonants. "pi" was pronounced [p], and "phi" was
puff of breath than our K sound. The best I can approximate what I heard
is to pronounce the first syllable as "Gah" with an unvoiced G. How did
they figure out such fine differences in pronunciation?
Well, Classical Greek distinguished between aspirated and
Those pronunciations aren't "misunderstandings"; the pronunciation
of Latin just shifted over the centuries.
On 8/22/21 2:53 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Keith F. Lynch <kfl@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
I've heard that Church Latin would have been incomprehensible to the
ancient Romans, due to misunderstandings about pronunciations. For
instance "Caesar" was pronounced "Kaiser" (which is where the Germans
got that word), and "veni, vidi, vici" was pronounced "weenee, weedee,
weesee." Which pronunciation is taught in schools today, and does it
differ between public schools and church schools? Thanks.
I can say that the pronounciations taught in schools today in England and in >> Italy are very different.
My familiarity with Church Latin is mostly through classical music, >specifically the Mass and Requiem texts. The northern and southern
European pronunciations have noticeable differences. German choirs
pronounce "pacem" as "pahtzem," and Italian ones pronounce it as
"pahchem." Ancient Romans, if I'm getting this right, pronounced it
"pahkem."
Those pronunciations aren't "misunderstandings"; the pronunciation of
Latin just shifted over the centuries.
"Caesar" was pronounced roughly "Kah-es-ahr" in ancient Rome, so not the
same as "Kaiser" though close.
Gary McGath <garym@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
Those pronunciations aren't "misunderstandings"; the pronunciation
of Latin just shifted over the centuries.
In the old rasff tradition, I'm disagreeing with you just to be polite.
Live languages evolve. Dead languages don't, but are held to have
been correct at some specific past time and place. For Latin, that's
usually whatever dialect Augustus spoke.
Latin evolved, but people today in the former Roman Empire are neither >speaking Latin wrong nor speaking Latin right; they're speaking
Spanish, French, Italian, Romanian, or whatever right.
Similarly Old English and Middle English are no longer evolving. They
were replaced by Modern English, which is still evolving. Anyone who
speaks Old English in a way that couldn't have been understood by even
one person living in England before 1066 is doing it wrong.
Similarly, dinosaurs are extinct, hence no longer evolving. The
living descendants of dinosaurs aren't being a dinosaur wrong, nor
are they being a dinosaur correctly. They're being birds correctly.
Which pronunciation is taught in schools today, and does it
differ between public schools and church schools?
Yes. I studied Classical Latin but sang in Church Latin, which
is as near to Italian as makes very little difference.
begin fnord
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
Yes. I studied Classical Latin but sang in Church Latin, whichA looong, long time ago my mother was in a chorus who were rehearsing a
is as near to Italian as makes very little difference.
song in Latin. She told me how the conductor very pointedly said they
did not want to hear _any_ Classical pronunciation (and I wouldn't be surprised if they had been looking at my mother when they said that - if
the conductor was who I suspect they were (it's been a while), he knew
she had a son who took Latin at a school that taught Classical pronunciation).
--
begin fnord
djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
Yes. I studied Classical Latin but sang in Church Latin, which
is as near to Italian as makes very little difference.
A looong, long time ago my mother was in a chorus who were rehearsing a
song in Latin. She told me how the conductor very pointedly said they
did not want to hear _any_ Classical pronunciation (and I wouldn't be >surprised if they had been looking at my mother when they said that - if
the conductor was who I suspect they were (it's been a while), he knew
she had a son who took Latin at a school that taught Classical pronunciation).
On the rare occasion we in our children's choir sang a hymn in Latin rather than English, we used "church Latin" pronunciation. Soft "g" in "Regem angelorum" in "Adeste Fidelis/O Come, All Ye Faithful," exempli gratia.
We didn't turn "venite" into wehn-ee-tay, either .
Live languages evolve. Dead languages don't, but are held to have
been correct at some specific past time and place. For Latin, that's
usually whatever dialect Augustus spoke.
The text of Stravinsky's opera _Oedipus Rex_ is in grammatically
medieval Latin. But the instructions are to use Classical
pronunciation.
On 8/23/21 2:36 PM, Kevrob wrote:
On the rare occasion we in our children's choir sang a hymn in Latin rather >> than English, we used "church Latin" pronunciation. Soft "g" in "Regem
angelorum" in "Adeste Fidelis/O Come, All Ye Faithful," exempli gratia.
We didn't turn "venite" into wehn-ee-tay, either .
I remember learning that song in school, but I think the teacher didn't
get the pronunciation right by any version of Latin. We pronounced >"Bethlehem" with the English "th," which I don't think Latin has ever done.
In article <sg14sh$f7u$1...@dont-email.me>,
Gary McGath <ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
On 8/23/21 2:36 PM, Kevrob wrote:
On the rare occasion we in our children's choir sang a hymn in Latin rather
than English, we used "church Latin" pronunciation. Soft "g" in "Regem
angelorum" in "Adeste Fidelis/O Come, All Ye Faithful," exempli gratia.
We didn't turn "venite" into wehn-ee-tay, either .
I remember learning that song in school, but I think the teacher didn't--
get the pronunciation right by any version of Latin. We pronounced >"Bethlehem" with the English "th," which I don't think Latin has ever done. Nope.
Shouldn't it be in classical Greek? Or, given Stravinsky's
nationality, modern Russian?
In article <sg1gd9$p9o$1@reader2.panix.com>, kfl@KeithLynch.net (Keith F. >Lynch) wrote:
Shouldn't it be in classical Greek? Or, given Stravinsky's
nationality, modern Russian?
He had is reasons, and apparently even consider ancient Greek. '... but
[he] decided ultimately on Latin: in his words "a medium not dead but
turned to stone."'
The libretto was actually written by Jean Cocteau in French and then >translated into Latin. There is also a narrator who comes on from time
to time to explain what is happening in the audience's local language.
And the English-language translation was written by E. E.
Cummings. (Note that he did use capital letters when writing his
name.) Its style is excellent. I wish I could find a copy; maybe
later today I'll do a search.
begin fnord
djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
[Stravinsky, Oedipus Rex]
And the English-language translation was written by E. E.
Cummings. (Note that he did use capital letters when writing his
name.) Its style is excellent. I wish I could find a copy; maybe
later today I'll do a search.
Available from Hal Leonard for $60. There's a few used copies on
abebooks starting at around half that price.
On 8/22/21 6:08 PM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
Live languages evolve. Dead languages don't, but are held to have
been correct at some specific past time and place. For Latin, that's
usually whatever dialect Augustus spoke.
Latin was used for over a millennium after Augustus's time as a
scholarly language. Newton wrote his major works in Latin. That had to >involve coining new words, so I don't think you can call it a dead
language until the 18th century at the earliest.
And the English-language translation was written by E. E. Cummings.
(Note that he did use capital letters when writing his name.)
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