• What's wrong with Raytheon?

    From Keith F. Lynch@21:1/5 to All on Thu Dec 23 22:52:07 2021
    The chair of the recent Worldcon just posted an apology for accepting
    Raytheon as a sponsor of the convention. She doesn't say why it was
    wrong. Does anyone have any idea?

    Her apology is at https://twitter.com/worldcon2021/status/1474104206839660544/photo/1

    Yes, a photo of a single-page letter in lieu of plain text. She also
    tried to email that photo to me, and presumably also all other members.
    It was of course blocked by my filters due to its immense size.
    --
    Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
    Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Gary McGath@21:1/5 to Keith F. Lynch on Thu Dec 23 18:29:33 2021
    On 12/23/21 5:52 PM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
    The chair of the recent Worldcon just posted an apology for accepting Raytheon as a sponsor of the convention. She doesn't say why it was
    wrong. Does anyone have any idea?


    Last year, the Chinese government got mad at Raytheon for selling arms
    to Taiwan. That may be the reason.


    --
    Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Keith F. Lynch on Thu Dec 23 21:05:17 2021
    On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 5:52:08 PM UTC-5, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
    The chair of the recent Worldcon just posted an apology for accepting Raytheon as a sponsor of the convention. She doesn't say why it was
    wrong. Does anyone have any idea?

    They're basically an arms dealer.

    --
    Evelyn C. Leeper

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Michael Benveniste@21:1/5 to Keith F. Lynch on Fri Dec 24 00:19:43 2021
    On 12/23/2021 5:52 PM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
    The chair of the recent Worldcon just posted an apology for accepting Raytheon as a sponsor of the convention. She doesn't say why it was
    wrong. Does anyone have any idea?

    "Some people" were complaining because they see Raytheon as an eeevvvil
    company because they are a defense contractor. This resulted in a
    Twitter storm, as you can see here:

    https://twitter.com/worldcon2021/status/1472361395148648448

    I have good reason to know that the task of photographing finalists
    before the ceremony is normally done by convention staffers.

    --
    Mike Benveniste -- mhb@murkyether.com (Clarification Required)
    Its name is Public opinion. It is held in reverence. It settles
    everything. Some think it is the voice of God. -- Mark Twain

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Tim Merrigan@21:1/5 to evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com on Thu Dec 23 21:44:12 2021
    On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 21:05:17 -0800 (PST), "eleeper@optonline.net" <evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 5:52:08 PM UTC-5, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
    The chair of the recent Worldcon just posted an apology for accepting
    Raytheon as a sponsor of the convention. She doesn't say why it was
    wrong. Does anyone have any idea?

    They're basically an arms dealer.

    Basically? They're straight up an arms dealer.
    --

    Qualified immuninity = virtual impunity.

    Tim Merrigan

    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
    https://www.avg.com

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  • From Kevrob@21:1/5 to merri...@gmail.com on Fri Dec 24 00:13:46 2021
    On Friday, December 24, 2021 at 12:44:14 AM UTC-5, merri...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 21:05:17 -0800 (PST), "ele...@optonline.net" <evelynchim...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 5:52:08 PM UTC-5, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
    The chair of the recent Worldcon just posted an apology for accepting
    Raytheon as a sponsor of the convention. She doesn't say why it was
    wrong. Does anyone have any idea?

    They're basically an arms dealer.
    Basically? They're straight up an arms dealer.
    --

    Aren't they involved on space, also?

    --
    Kevin R

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Andy Leighton@21:1/5 to Kevrob on Fri Dec 24 04:03:07 2021
    On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 00:13:46 -0800 (PST), Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote:
    On Friday, December 24, 2021 at 12:44:14 AM UTC-5, merri...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 21:05:17 -0800 (PST), "ele...@optonline.net"
    <evelynchim...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 5:52:08 PM UTC-5, Keith F. Lynch wrote: >> >> The chair of the recent Worldcon just posted an apology for accepting
    Raytheon as a sponsor of the convention. She doesn't say why it was
    wrong. Does anyone have any idea?

    They're basically an arms dealer.
    Basically? They're straight up an arms dealer.
    --

    Aren't they involved on space, also?

    I am not sure about the "also" the space stuff that RIS do looks to be
    mainly military intelligence focused.

    --
    Andy Leighton => andyl@azaal.plus.com
    "We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
    - Douglas Adams

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  • From Gary McGath@21:1/5 to Michael Benveniste on Fri Dec 24 07:01:42 2021
    On 12/24/21 12:19 AM, Michael Benveniste wrote:
    On 12/23/2021 5:52 PM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
    The chair of the recent Worldcon just posted an apology for accepting
    Raytheon as a sponsor of the convention.  She doesn't say why it was
    wrong.  Does anyone have any idea?

    "Some people" were complaining because they see Raytheon as an eeevvvil company because they are a defense contractor.  This resulted in a
    Twitter storm, as you can see here:

    Whom does the Chengdu con committee have to keep happy? The Chinese
    government. The Chinese government doesn't object to arms dealers as
    such. It objects to arms dealers, such as Raytheon, that sell to Taiwan.



    --
    Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Wolffan@21:1/5 to Tim Merrigan on Fri Dec 24 08:10:41 2021
    On 2021 Dec 24, Tim Merrigan wrote
    (in article<1enasgta77btq35i4ldqqja42tir0mktg6@4ax.com>):

    On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 21:05:17 -0800 (PST), "eleeper@optonline.net" <evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 5:52:08 PM UTC-5, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
    The chair of the recent Worldcon just posted an apology for accepting Raytheon as a sponsor of the convention. She doesn't say why it was wrong. Does anyone have any idea?

    They're basically an arms dealer.

    Basically? They're straight up an arms dealer.

    Hmm... Some of their divisions, such as Pratt & Whitney, do an awful lot of civilian thingies. P&W builds turbines: aircraft engines, helicopter engines (slightly different from fixed-wing aircraft engines), ship engines, electric power gensets, that kind of thing.

    On the other hand, one of their divisions builds every American-made missile that you’ve ever heard of and a few that you haven’t. Patriot, Javelin
    (the American, not the Canadian Javelin), Standard, HARM, swarms more.
    Another division builds drones. Certain people will disapprove of them.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Jeff Urs@21:1/5 to eleeper@optonline.net on Fri Dec 24 14:28:30 2021
    eleeper@optonline.net <evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 5:52:08 PM UTC-5, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
    The chair of the recent Worldcon just posted an apology for accepting
    Raytheon as a sponsor of the convention. She doesn't say why it was
    wrong. Does anyone have any idea?

    They're basically an arms dealer.

    A few disjointed thoughts:

    The sponsoring part of Raytheon includes Bolt, Beranek and Newman, heroes
    of the embryonic Internet.

    Some might think it appropriate to have what is basically an arms dealer sponsoring awards that are basically models of V-2 rockets.

    Somehow, the terminal space on your signature separator line has gone walkabout.

    --
    Jeff

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Keith F. Lynch@21:1/5 to Michael Benveniste on Fri Dec 24 15:41:50 2021
    Michael Benveniste <mhb@murkyether.com> wrote:
    Keith F. Lynch wrote:
    The chair of the recent Worldcon just posted an apology for
    accepting Raytheon as a sponsor of the convention. She doesn't
    say why it was wrong. Does anyone have any idea?

    "Some people" were complaining because they see Raytheon as an
    eeevvvil company because they are a defense contractor. This
    resulted in a Twitter storm, as you can see here:

    https://twitter.com/worldcon2021/status/1472361395148648448

    Thanks. How bizarre. I wonder if I'm evil because I worked for SAIC
    for most of the '80s.

    I have good reason to know that the task of photographing finalists
    before the ceremony is normally done by convention staffers.

    Discon had a shortage of volunteers. This may have something to
    do with the fact that they turned down lots of would-be volunteers
    without explanation.

    Ms. Kowal may be an excellent SF writer, but she apparently knows
    little about fandom.
    --
    Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
    Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Keith F. Lynch@21:1/5 to Gary McGath on Fri Dec 24 15:59:29 2021
    Gary McGath <garym@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
    Whom does the Chengdu con committee have to keep happy? The Chinese government. The Chinese government doesn't object to arms dealers
    as such. It objects to arms dealers, such as Raytheon, that sell to
    Taiwan.

    What does that have to do with the Discon con committee? Their
    only responsibility to the China bid is to ensure that the votes
    are counted and reported fairly.

    The people complaining in the Twitter thread Michael pointed to don't
    seem to be Chinese, though at least one of them had a hammer-and-sickle
    in his name, and another one had a name in Cyrillic, albeit accompanied
    by the flag of Iceland. Disclaimer: I didn't read the thread to the
    end, life's too short.

    I'm disappointed that I was the only one who walked out of the site
    selection meeting when the China Worldcon's representative took the
    microphone. See

    2021 WSFS Business Meeting - Saturday Site Selection Meeting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIEIZhuonsA
    --
    Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
    Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Scott Dorsey@21:1/5 to tppm@ca.rr.com on Fri Dec 24 16:50:52 2021
    Tim Merrigan <tppm@ca.rr.com> wrote:
    On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 21:05:17 -0800 (PST), "eleeper@optonline.net" ><evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 5:52:08 PM UTC-5, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
    The chair of the recent Worldcon just posted an apology for accepting
    Raytheon as a sponsor of the convention. She doesn't say why it was
    wrong. Does anyone have any idea?

    They're basically an arms dealer.

    Basically? They're straight up an arms dealer.

    Raytheon is a conglomerate: a bunch of individual companies that are glued together by concrete. Most of them sell mostly to the government. Some of them sell arms.

    Since they split Raymarine off, and Raytheon Electron Devices is falling on hard times, we could probably say most of them sell arms.

    Raytheon Space and Intelligence, which is the specific company that sponsored the convention, is absolutely an arms dealer.

    Disclaimer: I used to work for Raytheon, but for a division that did not sell arms.
    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Gary McGath@21:1/5 to Gary McGath on Fri Dec 24 13:34:01 2021
    On 12/24/21 7:01 AM, Gary McGath wrote:

    Whom does the Chengdu con committee have to keep happy? The Chinese government. The Chinese government doesn't object to arms dealers as
    such. It objects to arms dealers, such as Raytheon, that sell to Taiwan.




    Sorry, I misread it. I thought it was the Chengdu chair that made the
    apology. It wasn't.

    --
    Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Keith F. Lynch@21:1/5 to Gary McGath on Fri Dec 24 19:16:16 2021
    Gary McGath <garym@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
    Sorry, I misread it. I thought it was the Chengdu chair that made
    the apology. It wasn't.

    I don't think there's much chance of Raytheon offering to sponsor
    the Chengdu Worldcon -- which of course hasn't happened yet. It's
    scheduled for August 23-29 of 2023, which I think is a record length.

    Of course I won't be attending. As I mentioned, I walked out of the announcement. I also didn't attend their room parties or go to their
    fan table, nor will I do so next year in Chicago. I did go to the
    Raytheon table, where I picked up a free squishy rocket.
    --
    Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
    Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Keith F. Lynch@21:1/5 to Keith F. Lynch on Fri Dec 24 20:29:38 2021
    Keith F. Lynch <kfl@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
    I did go to the Raytheon table, where I picked up a free
    squishy rocket.

    I just took a close look at it, as I finished unpacking from the
    Worldcon today.

    In small print it says it's made in China. Sigh.
    --
    Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
    Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gary McGath@21:1/5 to Keith F. Lynch on Fri Dec 24 16:18:58 2021
    On 12/24/21 2:16 PM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
    Gary McGath <garym@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
    Sorry, I misread it. I thought it was the Chengdu chair that made
    the apology. It wasn't.

    I don't think there's much chance of Raytheon offering to sponsor
    the Chengdu Worldcon -- which of course hasn't happened yet. It's
    scheduled for August 23-29 of 2023, which I think is a record length.

    Of course I won't be attending. As I mentioned, I walked out of the announcement. I also didn't attend their room parties or go to their
    fan table, nor will I do so next year in Chicago. I did go to the
    Raytheon table, where I picked up a free squishy rocket.

    I've assembled a list of videos on why fans should boycott the Chengdu
    con. So far they're general items, such as what the Chinese government
    has done with the Internet, the Uyghurs, and Hong Kong. If I can find
    some videos of notable pros speaking out against it, I'll add them.

    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLyAKVQXoND800ZAmJ6TQq49tO-8sK30uY

    --
    Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Tim Merrigan@21:1/5 to All on Fri Dec 24 15:20:26 2021
    On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 08:10:41 -0500, Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com>
    wrote:

    On 2021 Dec 24, Tim Merrigan wrote
    (in article<1enasgta77btq35i4ldqqja42tir0mktg6@4ax.com>):

    On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 21:05:17 -0800 (PST), "eleeper@optonline.net"
    <evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 5:52:08 PM UTC-5, Keith F. Lynch wrote: >> > > The chair of the recent Worldcon just posted an apology for accepting
    Raytheon as a sponsor of the convention. She doesn't say why it was
    wrong. Does anyone have any idea?

    They're basically an arms dealer.

    Basically? They're straight up an arms dealer.

    Hmm... Some of their divisions, such as Pratt & Whitney, do an awful lot of >civilian thingies. P&W builds turbines: aircraft engines, helicopter engines >(slightly different from fixed-wing aircraft engines), ship engines, electric >power gensets, that kind of thing.

    On the other hand, one of their divisions builds every American-made missile >that youve ever heard of and a few that you havent. Patriot, Javelin
    (the American, not the Canadian Javelin), Standard, HARM, swarms more. >Another division builds drones. Certain people will disapprove of them.

    For fictional counterparts two names came prominently to mind, to wit,
    Daddy Warbucks (though, as far as I know, we don't actually know what
    he does, other than his name) and Andrew Undershaft, though without
    the social engineering.
    --

    Qualified immuninity = virtual impunity.

    Tim Merrigan

    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
    https://www.avg.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Kevrob@21:1/5 to merri...@gmail.com on Fri Dec 24 23:56:05 2021
    On Friday, December 24, 2021 at 6:20:29 PM UTC-5, merri...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 08:10:41 -0500, Wolffan <akwo...@zoho.com>
    wrote:
    On 2021 Dec 24, Tim Merrigan wrote
    (in article<1enasgta77btq35i4...@4ax.com>):

    On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 21:05:17 -0800 (PST), "ele...@optonline.net"
    <evelynchim...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 5:52:08 PM UTC-5, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
    The chair of the recent Worldcon just posted an apology for accepting >> > > Raytheon as a sponsor of the convention. She doesn't say why it was >> > > wrong. Does anyone have any idea?

    They're basically an arms dealer.

    Basically? They're straight up an arms dealer.

    Hmm... Some of their divisions, such as Pratt & Whitney, do an awful lot of >civilian thingies. P&W builds turbines: aircraft engines, helicopter engines
    (slightly different from fixed-wing aircraft engines), ship engines, electric
    power gensets, that kind of thing.

    On the other hand, one of their divisions builds every American-made missile
    that you’ve ever heard of and a few that you haven’t. Patriot, Javelin >(the American, not the Canadian Javelin), Standard, HARM, swarms more. >Another division builds drones. Certain people will disapprove of them.
    For fictional counterparts two names came prominently to mind, to wit,
    Daddy Warbucks (though, as far as I know, we don't actually know what
    he does, other than his name) and Andrew Undershaft, though without
    the social engineering.
    --

    From the early 1960s, when the character was created, into the early
    1970s, Tony (Iron Man) Stark's company made munitions. That was
    time-shifted in the films.

    --
    Kevin R

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Michael Benveniste@21:1/5 to Gary McGath on Sat Dec 25 09:00:15 2021
    On 12/24/2021 7:01 AM, Gary McGath wrote:

    The Chinese government doesn't object to arms dealers as such. It objects > to arms dealers, such as Raytheon, that sell to Taiwan.

    The Chinese government _is_ an arms dealer. Even if they didn't sell to Taiwan, it would view Raytheon as competition.

    --
    Mike Benveniste -- mhb@murkyether.com (Clarification Required)
    Its name is Public opinion. It is held in reverence. It settles
    everything. Some think it is the voice of God. -- Mark Twain

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Trei@21:1/5 to Scott Dorsey on Sat Dec 25 10:24:06 2021
    On Friday, December 24, 2021 at 11:50:54 AM UTC-5, Scott Dorsey wrote:
    Tim Merrigan <tp...@ca.rr.com> wrote:
    On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 21:05:17 -0800 (PST), "ele...@optonline.net" ><evelynchim...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 5:52:08 PM UTC-5, Keith F. Lynch wrote: >>> The chair of the recent Worldcon just posted an apology for accepting
    Raytheon as a sponsor of the convention. She doesn't say why it was
    wrong. Does anyone have any idea?

    They're basically an arms dealer.

    Basically? They're straight up an arms dealer.
    Raytheon is a conglomerate: a bunch of individual companies that are glued together by concrete. Most of them sell mostly to the government. Some of them sell arms.

    Since they split Raymarine off, and Raytheon Electron Devices is falling on hard times, we could probably say most of them sell arms.

    Raytheon Space and Intelligence, which is the specific company that sponsored the convention, is absolutely an arms dealer.

    Disclaimer: I used to work for Raytheon, but for a division that did not sell arms.

    I've been there for nearly 7 years now, working in Cyber
    Defense.

    A couple of years ago Raytheon merged with United
    Technologies to form Raytheon Technologies. UTX
    Is clearly the half calling the shots. UTX does a huge
    amount of civil aviation work, and the link with RTN
    kept them alive over the past couple of years, since
    defense spending didn't drop off when civil aviation
    got shut down by COVID.

    With out actually intending to, a good chunk of my
    career has been in defense; MITRE, BAE, and
    Raytheon.

    Pt

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Michael Benveniste@21:1/5 to Scott Dorsey on Sun Dec 26 20:09:27 2021
    On 12/24/2021 11:50 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:

    Raytheon is a conglomerate: a bunch of individual companies that are glued together by concrete. Most of them sell mostly to the government. Some of them sell arms.

    Raytheon Intelligence and Space was the Raytheon Company which bought a hucksters table and for provided the sponsorship. Judge for yourself:

    https://www.raytheonintelligenceandspace.com/capabilities


    --
    Mike Benveniste -- mhb@murkyether.com (Clarification Required)
    Its name is Public opinion. It is held in reverence. It settles
    everything. Some think it is the voice of God. -- Mark Twain

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Trei@21:1/5 to Michael Benveniste on Wed Dec 29 19:43:54 2021
    On Sunday, December 26, 2021 at 8:09:29 PM UTC-5, Michael Benveniste wrote:
    On 12/24/2021 11:50 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:

    Raytheon is a conglomerate: a bunch of individual companies that are glued together by concrete. Most of them sell mostly to the government. Some of them sell arms.
    Raytheon Intelligence and Space was the Raytheon Company which bought a hucksters table and for provided the sponsorship. Judge for yourself:

    https://www.raytheonintelligenceandspace.com/capabilities

    Since the merger with United Technologies, the civil aviation side
    is bigger.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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