Chengdu (China) will be hosting the 2023 Worldcon, beating Winnipeg.
It won the bid by an overwhelming margin, almost all of which were
pre-con ballots received from China. Some objected to counting
ballots with incomplete street addresses, but the con ruled that the
address requirement is a requirement that the *con* have an address
field on the ballot, not that the voter needs to write anything there.
(If the incomplete-address ballots had been discarded, Winnipeg would
have won.)
Chengdu (China) will be hosting the 2023 Worldcon, beating Winnipeg.
It won the bid by an overwhelming margin, almost all of which were
pre-con ballots received from China. Some objected to counting
ballots with incomplete street addresses, but the con ruled that the
address requirement is a requirement that the *con* have an address
field on the ballot, not that the voter needs to write anything there.
(If the incomplete-address ballots had been discarded, Winnipeg would
have won.)
On 12/19/21 1:45 AM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
Chengdu (China) will be hosting the 2023 Worldcon, beating Winnipeg.
It won the bid by an overwhelming margin, almost all of which were
pre-con ballots received from China. Some objected to counting
ballots with incomplete street addresses, but the con ruled that the address requirement is a requirement that the *con* have an address
field on the ballot, not that the voter needs to write anything there.
(If the incomplete-address ballots had been discarded, Winnipeg would
have won.)
So China bought the Worldcon with supporting memberships? I'd like to
think that means there will effectively be no Worldcon in 2023, but
there are so many fans these days who admire socialist states and
censorship that it may get a large and enthusiastic turnout.
On 12/19/21 1:45 AM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
Chengdu (China) will be hosting the 2023 Worldcon, beating Winnipeg.
It won the bid by an overwhelming margin, almost all of which were
pre-con ballots received from China. Some objected to counting
ballots with incomplete street addresses, but the con ruled that the address requirement is a requirement that the *con* have an address
field on the ballot, not that the voter needs to write anything there.
(If the incomplete-address ballots had been discarded, Winnipeg would
have won.)
So China bought the Worldcon with supporting memberships? I'd like to
think that means there will effectively be no Worldcon in 2023, but
there are so many fans these days who admire socialist states and
censorship that it may get a large and enthusiastic turnout.
The Hugo ceremony began at 9:10 pm rather than 8:00 due to a smoke
incident which may have been caused by years of dust accumulating on
very hot and bright stage lights which hadn't been turned on in a long
time.
On 12/19/21 1:45 AM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
Chengdu (China) will be hosting the 2023 Worldcon, beating Winnipeg.
It won the bid by an overwhelming margin, almost all of which were
pre-con ballots received from China. Some objected to counting
ballots with incomplete street addresses, but the con ruled that the
address requirement is a requirement that the *con* have an address
field on the ballot, not that the voter needs to write anything there.
(If the incomplete-address ballots had been discarded, Winnipeg would
have won.)
So China bought the Worldcon with supporting memberships? I'd like to
think that means there will effectively be no Worldcon in 2023, but
there are so many fans these days who admire socialist states and
censorship that it may get a large and enthusiastic turnout.
So China bought the Worldcon with supporting memberships? I'd like to
think that means there will effectively be no Worldcon in 2023, but
there are so many fans these days who admire socialist states and
censorship that it may get a large and enthusiastic turnout.
I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. Yes, most of the voters probably
were not attending Discon III, but if they were voting from China, it's not unreasonable to assume they might attend Chengdu. To require everyone voting to have attending memberships makes the poll tax pretty high, and to require that
they actually attend the convention at which the vote is held makes it insanely
high.
I expect Chengdu will be a large Worldcon. Nippon had more Japanese attendees
than non-Japanese, and I expect at Chengdu the Chinese fans will outnumber the
non-Chinese fans.
On 12/19/21 4:18 PM, ele...@optonline.net wrote:
So China bought the Worldcon with supporting memberships? I'd like to
think that means there will effectively be no Worldcon in 2023, but
there are so many fans these days who admire socialist states and
censorship that it may get a large and enthusiastic turnout.
I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. Yes, most of the voters probably
were not attending Discon III, but if they were voting from China, it's not unreasonable to assume they might attend Chengdu. To require everyone voting
to have attending memberships makes the poll tax pretty high, and to require that
they actually attend the convention at which the vote is held makes it insanely
high.
I expect Chengdu will be a large Worldcon. Nippon had more Japanese attendeesWhen I said "no Worldcon," I meant that it won't be a Worldcon in any meaningful sense, but merely a large Chinese con that will have no significance to the rest of fandom. According to some accounts I've
than non-Japanese, and I expect at Chengdu the Chinese fans will outnumber the
non-Chinese fans.
seen, it will be a very large Chinese con, comparable in size to the
biggest comic cons. That's enough right there to destroy any similarity
to normal fan-run cons. The model just can't scale up that much and
maintain a sense of community.
--
If the con were run by Chinese fandom, would that come
with Party minders? Is there a SMOF cell in the CCP?
When I said "no Worldcon," I meant that it won't be a Worldcon in any meaningful sense, but merely a large Chinese con that will have no significance to the rest of fandom. According to some accounts I've
seen, it will be a very large Chinese con, comparable in size to the
biggest comic cons. That's enough right there to destroy any similarity
to normal fan-run cons. The model just can't scale up that much and
maintain a sense of community.
Will NASFiC, and/or it's European counterpart, substitute as the de
facto Worldcon?
On Sun, 19 Dec 2021 13:05:57 -0500, Gary McGath <ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
So China bought the Worldcon with supporting memberships? I'd like to
think that means there will effectively be no Worldcon in 2023, but
there are so many fans these days who admire socialist states and >censorship that it may get a large and enthusiastic turnout.
Will NASFiC, and/or it's European counterpart, substitute as the de
facto Worldcon?
On Sunday, December 19, 2021 at 6:32:40 PM UTC-5, Gary McGath wrote:
When I said "no Worldcon," I meant that it won't be a Worldcon in any
meaningful sense, but merely a large Chinese con that will have no
significance to the rest of fandom. According to some accounts I've
seen, it will be a very large Chinese con, comparable in size to the
biggest comic cons. That's enough right there to destroy any similarity
to normal fan-run cons. The model just can't scale up that much and
maintain a sense of community.
I don't entirely disagree with you, but I can't help but think if the members of the Worldcons from the 1950s (and earlier) were dropped into Loncon 3
or Dublin 2019, they would be appalled. Their question would be similar to yours: where is the sense of community in a convention that large? And they'd be right. One of the things I liked about Aussiecon Three was that at about 1800, it was the smallest worldcon in years, and you really had a sense that everyone could relate to everyone else in some way. But that doesn't mean
that we should cap the membership at 2000 or something.
On 12/19/21 8:54 PM, ele...@optonline.net wrote:
On Sunday, December 19, 2021 at 6:32:40 PM UTC-5, Gary McGath wrote:
When I said "no Worldcon," I meant that it won't be a Worldcon in any
meaningful sense, but merely a large Chinese con that will have no
significance to the rest of fandom. According to some accounts I've
seen, it will be a very large Chinese con, comparable in size to the
biggest comic cons. That's enough right there to destroy any similarity
to normal fan-run cons. The model just can't scale up that much and
maintain a sense of community.
I don't entirely disagree with you, but I can't help but think if the membersIt's not just the numbers. There is no chance that the con will allow
of the Worldcons from the 1950s (and earlier) were dropped into Loncon 3
or Dublin 2019, they would be appalled. Their question would be similar to yours: where is the sense of community in a convention that large? And they'd be right. One of the things I liked about Aussiecon Three was that at
about 1800, it was the smallest worldcon in years, and you really had a sense
that everyone could relate to everyone else in some way. But that doesn't mean
that we should cap the membership at 2000 or something.
panels discussing topics that the government doesn't like. Will there be
a program item on the Great Firewall of China or the treatment of
Uighurs in the making of Mulan? If you bet against it, your money is safe.
The Jeddah bid was scuttled by widespread indignation against Saudi
Arabia hosting a convention. It's too late for that to happen in this
case, but I hope that pros in relatively free countries will boycott the
2023 convention.
On 12/19/21 8:54 PM, eleeper@optonline.net wrote:
On Sunday, December 19, 2021 at 6:32:40 PM UTC-5, Gary McGath wrote:
When I said "no Worldcon," I meant that it won't be a Worldcon in any
meaningful sense, but merely a large Chinese con that will have no
significance to the rest of fandom. According to some accounts I've
seen, it will be a very large Chinese con, comparable in size to the
biggest comic cons. That's enough right there to destroy any similarity
to normal fan-run cons. The model just can't scale up that much and
maintain a sense of community.
I don't entirely disagree with you, but I can't help but think if the members
of the Worldcons from the 1950s (and earlier) were dropped into Loncon 3
or Dublin 2019, they would be appalled. Their question would be similar to >> yours: where is the sense of community in a convention that large? And
they'd be right. One of the things I liked about Aussiecon Three was that at
about 1800, it was the smallest worldcon in years, and you really had a sense
that everyone could relate to everyone else in some way. But that doesn't mean
that we should cap the membership at 2000 or something.
It's not just the numbers. There is no chance that the con will allow
panels discussing topics that the government doesn't like. Will there be
a program item on the Great Firewall of China or the treatment of
Uighurs in the making of Mulan? If you bet against it, your money is safe.
The Jeddah bid was scuttled by widespread indignation against Saudi
Arabia hosting a convention. It's too late for that to happen in this
case, but I hope that pros in relatively free countries will boycott the
2023 convention.
I think if you peruse the GOH, you will see at least one well-known
Western pro who is clearly OK with the Chengdu con.
Perhaps those with deeper knowledge of WorldCon bidding rules
could enlighten me:
How does this affect voting for future worldcons? Is a bid from
a different city in the same non-NA country allowed?
Joshua Kreitzer <gromit82@hotmail.com> wrote:
pete...@gmail.com wrote:
How does this affect voting for future worldcons? Is a bid from a
different city in the same non-NA country allowed?
Yes, it's allowed. The relevant rule is: "A site shall be
ineligible if it is within five hundred (500) miles or eight
hundred (800) kilometers of the site at which selection occurs."
Yes. And China is of course one of the few countries for which there
are sites more than far enough from each other.
Also, "non-NA" doesn't appear in any Worldcon rules, as they don't
privilege any country over any other.
China could permanently steal the Worldcon, but they would only have
seized a few trademarks. Nothing would keep fans in the rest of the
world from re-creating Worldcon and the Hugo Awards under new names
and continuing on as if nothing had happened.
pete...@gmail.com wrote:
How does this affect voting for future worldcons? Is a bid from a
different city in the same non-NA country allowed?
Yes, it's allowed. The relevant rule is: "A site shall be
ineligible if it is within five hundred (500) miles or eight
hundred (800) kilometers of the site at which selection occurs."
Keith F. Lynch wrote:
Also, "non-NA" doesn't appear in any Worldcon rules, as they don't
privilege any country over any other.
... It's in the NASFiC section:
... The English language and the USA are referenced in the Hugos:
The Jeddah bid was scuttled by widespread indignation against Saudi
Arabia hosting a convention. It's too late for that to happen in
this case, but I hope that pros in relatively free countries will
boycott the 2023 convention.
Gary McGath <ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:Interestingly ,Winnipeg and.Chengdu.are apparently sister cities. Does this make a family dispute?
The Jeddah bid was scuttled by widespread indignation against SaudiGiven how many votes came from China (at least 1586 out of 2352), they
Arabia hosting a convention. It's too late for that to happen in
this case, but I hope that pros in relatively free countries will
boycott the 2023 convention.
would have won even if every voter outside China voted against them.
(The total number of votes from China isn't given. 1586 is how many
votes from China *lacked a street address*.) There were 2006 total
votes for China, of which 1950 were pre-con and 56 at-con. Winnipeg
got 332 votes pre-con and 475 at-con for a total of 807. 28 votes were
for sites such as Taipei or Free Hong Kong, or were "no preference."
(Actually, 1591 lacked a street address, of which 1586 were for
Chengdu and 5 were "no preference.")
Those numbers are from the handouts distributed just before the site selection meeting was called to order.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
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