• News from the Worldcon

    From Keith F. Lynch@21:1/5 to All on Sun Dec 19 06:45:00 2021
    Chengdu (China) will be hosting the 2023 Worldcon, beating Winnipeg.
    It won the bid by an overwhelming margin, almost all of which were
    pre-con ballots received from China. Some objected to counting
    ballots with incomplete street addresses, but the con ruled that the
    address requirement is a requirement that the *con* have an address
    field on the ballot, not that the voter needs to write anything there.
    (If the incomplete-address ballots had been discarded, Winnipeg would
    have won.)

    The Hugo ceremony began at 9:10 pm rather than 8:00 due to a smoke
    incident which may have been caused by years of dust accumulating on
    very hot and bright stage lights which hadn't been turned on in a long
    time. I was afraid they'd run through midnight, but they ended at
    11:10. I don't know if they cut out filler to make then end on time
    or close to it. The winners can be found at http://file770.com/
    (main page).
    --
    Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
    Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

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  • From evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Keith F. Lynch on Sun Dec 19 08:22:55 2021
    On Sunday, December 19, 2021 at 1:45:01 AM UTC-5, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
    Chengdu (China) will be hosting the 2023 Worldcon, beating Winnipeg.
    It won the bid by an overwhelming margin, almost all of which were
    pre-con ballots received from China. Some objected to counting
    ballots with incomplete street addresses, but the con ruled that the
    address requirement is a requirement that the *con* have an address
    field on the ballot, not that the voter needs to write anything there.
    (If the incomplete-address ballots had been discarded, Winnipeg would
    have won.)

    As people have pointed out, there are many good reasons *not* to require
    street addresses, not the least of which is that the concept is not universal (even in the US, where many Native Americans on tribal lands have no
    street address, and if the push is for everything else--including publications--
    to be electronic, requiring postal addresses makes no sense. (And if the postal address is "General Delivery" or "Poste Restante", what good does that do?)

    By suggesting they might not count ballots with missing street addresses, Winnipeg ended up looking like certain American politicians who shall not be named.

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  • From Gary McGath@21:1/5 to Keith F. Lynch on Sun Dec 19 13:05:57 2021
    On 12/19/21 1:45 AM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
    Chengdu (China) will be hosting the 2023 Worldcon, beating Winnipeg.
    It won the bid by an overwhelming margin, almost all of which were
    pre-con ballots received from China. Some objected to counting
    ballots with incomplete street addresses, but the con ruled that the
    address requirement is a requirement that the *con* have an address
    field on the ballot, not that the voter needs to write anything there.
    (If the incomplete-address ballots had been discarded, Winnipeg would
    have won.)


    So China bought the Worldcon with supporting memberships? I'd like to
    think that means there will effectively be no Worldcon in 2023, but
    there are so many fans these days who admire socialist states and
    censorship that it may get a large and enthusiastic turnout.


    --
    Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Kevrob@21:1/5 to Gary McGath on Sun Dec 19 12:01:28 2021
    On Sunday, December 19, 2021 at 1:05:59 PM UTC-5, Gary McGath wrote:
    On 12/19/21 1:45 AM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
    Chengdu (China) will be hosting the 2023 Worldcon, beating Winnipeg.
    It won the bid by an overwhelming margin, almost all of which were
    pre-con ballots received from China. Some objected to counting
    ballots with incomplete street addresses, but the con ruled that the address requirement is a requirement that the *con* have an address
    field on the ballot, not that the voter needs to write anything there.
    (If the incomplete-address ballots had been discarded, Winnipeg would
    have won.)

    So China bought the Worldcon with supporting memberships? I'd like to
    think that means there will effectively be no Worldcon in 2023, but
    there are so many fans these days who admire socialist states and
    censorship that it may get a large and enthusiastic turnout.



    Will there be a BTBCFF?

    {Oruvaq gur onzobb phegnva Fan Fund}

    --
    Kevin R

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  • From evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Gary McGath on Sun Dec 19 13:18:43 2021
    On Sunday, December 19, 2021 at 1:05:59 PM UTC-5, Gary McGath wrote:
    On 12/19/21 1:45 AM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
    Chengdu (China) will be hosting the 2023 Worldcon, beating Winnipeg.
    It won the bid by an overwhelming margin, almost all of which were
    pre-con ballots received from China. Some objected to counting
    ballots with incomplete street addresses, but the con ruled that the address requirement is a requirement that the *con* have an address
    field on the ballot, not that the voter needs to write anything there.
    (If the incomplete-address ballots had been discarded, Winnipeg would
    have won.)

    So China bought the Worldcon with supporting memberships? I'd like to
    think that means there will effectively be no Worldcon in 2023, but
    there are so many fans these days who admire socialist states and
    censorship that it may get a large and enthusiastic turnout.

    I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. Yes, most of the voters probably were not attending Discon III, but if they were voting from China, it's not unreasonable to assume they might attend Chengdu. To require everyone voting to have attending memberships makes the poll tax pretty high, and to require that
    they actually attend the convention at which the vote is held makes it insanely high.

    I expect Chengdu will be a large Worldcon. Nippon had more Japanese attendees than non-Japanese, and I expect at Chengdu the Chinese fans will outnumber the non-Chinese fans.

    --
    Evelyn C. Leeper

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  • From Scott Dorsey@21:1/5 to Keith F. Lynch on Sun Dec 19 21:23:54 2021
    Keith F. Lynch <kfl@KeithLynch.net> wrote:

    The Hugo ceremony began at 9:10 pm rather than 8:00 due to a smoke
    incident which may have been caused by years of dust accumulating on
    very hot and bright stage lights which hadn't been turned on in a long
    time.

    No, it was caused by a loose belt in the hotel HVAC system... which
    probably hadn't been turned on in a long time. The hotel was very very
    active in finding the problem but it took them a good while.
    --scott

    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

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  • From Tim Merrigan@21:1/5 to garym@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com on Sun Dec 19 14:31:57 2021
    On Sun, 19 Dec 2021 13:05:57 -0500, Gary McGath
    <garym@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:

    On 12/19/21 1:45 AM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
    Chengdu (China) will be hosting the 2023 Worldcon, beating Winnipeg.
    It won the bid by an overwhelming margin, almost all of which were
    pre-con ballots received from China. Some objected to counting
    ballots with incomplete street addresses, but the con ruled that the
    address requirement is a requirement that the *con* have an address
    field on the ballot, not that the voter needs to write anything there.
    (If the incomplete-address ballots had been discarded, Winnipeg would
    have won.)


    So China bought the Worldcon with supporting memberships? I'd like to
    think that means there will effectively be no Worldcon in 2023, but
    there are so many fans these days who admire socialist states and
    censorship that it may get a large and enthusiastic turnout.

    Will NASFiC, and/or it's European counterpart, substitute as the de
    facto Worldcon?
    --

    Qualified immuninity = virtual impunity.

    Tim Merrigan

    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
    https://www.avg.com

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  • From Gary McGath@21:1/5 to eleeper@optonline.net on Sun Dec 19 18:32:36 2021
    On 12/19/21 4:18 PM, eleeper@optonline.net wrote:

    So China bought the Worldcon with supporting memberships? I'd like to
    think that means there will effectively be no Worldcon in 2023, but
    there are so many fans these days who admire socialist states and
    censorship that it may get a large and enthusiastic turnout.

    I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. Yes, most of the voters probably
    were not attending Discon III, but if they were voting from China, it's not unreasonable to assume they might attend Chengdu. To require everyone voting to have attending memberships makes the poll tax pretty high, and to require that
    they actually attend the convention at which the vote is held makes it insanely
    high.

    I expect Chengdu will be a large Worldcon. Nippon had more Japanese attendees
    than non-Japanese, and I expect at Chengdu the Chinese fans will outnumber the
    non-Chinese fans.

    When I said "no Worldcon," I meant that it won't be a Worldcon in any meaningful sense, but merely a large Chinese con that will have no
    significance to the rest of fandom. According to some accounts I've
    seen, it will be a very large Chinese con, comparable in size to the
    biggest comic cons. That's enough right there to destroy any similarity
    to normal fan-run cons. The model just can't scale up that much and
    maintain a sense of community.

    --
    Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

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  • From Kevrob@21:1/5 to Gary McGath on Sun Dec 19 16:18:59 2021
    On Sunday, December 19, 2021 at 6:32:40 PM UTC-5, Gary McGath wrote:
    On 12/19/21 4:18 PM, ele...@optonline.net wrote:

    So China bought the Worldcon with supporting memberships? I'd like to
    think that means there will effectively be no Worldcon in 2023, but
    there are so many fans these days who admire socialist states and
    censorship that it may get a large and enthusiastic turnout.

    I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. Yes, most of the voters probably
    were not attending Discon III, but if they were voting from China, it's not unreasonable to assume they might attend Chengdu. To require everyone voting
    to have attending memberships makes the poll tax pretty high, and to require that
    they actually attend the convention at which the vote is held makes it insanely
    high.

    I expect Chengdu will be a large Worldcon. Nippon had more Japanese attendees
    than non-Japanese, and I expect at Chengdu the Chinese fans will outnumber the
    non-Chinese fans.
    When I said "no Worldcon," I meant that it won't be a Worldcon in any meaningful sense, but merely a large Chinese con that will have no significance to the rest of fandom. According to some accounts I've
    seen, it will be a very large Chinese con, comparable in size to the
    biggest comic cons. That's enough right there to destroy any similarity
    to normal fan-run cons. The model just can't scale up that much and
    maintain a sense of community.
    --

    If the con were run by Chinese fandom, would that come
    with Party minders? Is there a SMOF cell in the CCP?

    --
    Kevin R

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  • From Gary McGath@21:1/5 to Kevrob on Sun Dec 19 20:37:50 2021
    On 12/19/21 7:18 PM, Kevrob wrote:
    If the con were run by Chinese fandom, would that come
    with Party minders? Is there a SMOF cell in the CCP?

    A one-party con would be no fun at all.

    --
    Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Gary McGath on Sun Dec 19 17:54:11 2021
    On Sunday, December 19, 2021 at 6:32:40 PM UTC-5, Gary McGath wrote:
    When I said "no Worldcon," I meant that it won't be a Worldcon in any meaningful sense, but merely a large Chinese con that will have no significance to the rest of fandom. According to some accounts I've
    seen, it will be a very large Chinese con, comparable in size to the
    biggest comic cons. That's enough right there to destroy any similarity
    to normal fan-run cons. The model just can't scale up that much and
    maintain a sense of community.

    I don't entirely disagree with you, but I can't help but think if the members of the Worldcons from the 1950s (and earlier) were dropped into Loncon 3
    or Dublin 2019, they would be appalled. Their question would be similar to yours: where is the sense of community in a convention that large? And
    they'd be right. One of the things I liked about Aussiecon Three was that at about 1800, it was the smallest worldcon in years, and you really had a sense that everyone could relate to everyone else in some way. But that doesn't mean that we should cap the membership at 2000 or something.

    --
    Evelyn C. Leeper

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Paul Dormer@21:1/5 to Tim Merrigan on Mon Dec 20 11:32:00 2021
    In article <lgcvrgdh2h3lvnqjmlo9jv72ev422ug6af@4ax.com>, tppm@ca.rr.com
    (Tim Merrigan) wrote:


    Will NASFiC, and/or it's European counterpart, substitute as the de
    facto Worldcon?

    There isn't a European counterpart. There's Eurocon, but that's held
    every year. Been to several over the years; it's a convention I can get
    to usually by train.

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  • From evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com@21:1/5 to merri...@gmail.com on Mon Dec 20 06:05:15 2021
    On Sunday, December 19, 2021 at 5:31:59 PM UTC-5, merri...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Sun, 19 Dec 2021 13:05:57 -0500, Gary McGath <ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
    So China bought the Worldcon with supporting memberships? I'd like to
    think that means there will effectively be no Worldcon in 2023, but
    there are so many fans these days who admire socialist states and >censorship that it may get a large and enthusiastic turnout.

    Will NASFiC, and/or it's European counterpart, substitute as the de
    facto Worldcon?

    NASFiC certainly used to be the big North American convention, but
    without a lot of non-NA attendees and without the things that actually
    define the Worldcon (the Hugos, site election, and the Business
    Meeting), at least through 2014. The 2017 one (in Puerto Rico) really
    shrunk the size, and the 2020 one was virtual only. (I can't find data
    on the 2019 one.) I expect the 2023 one to be big as well, barring
    unforeseen circumstances (pandemics, natural disasters, bid
    collapse, etc.). And politics may drive some non-North American
    fans to attend it rather than Chengdu. But whether that constitutes
    being "the de facto Worldcon" is a matter of terminology.

    --
    Evelyn C. Leeper

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Gary McGath@21:1/5 to eleeper@optonline.net on Mon Dec 20 10:10:04 2021
    On 12/19/21 8:54 PM, eleeper@optonline.net wrote:
    On Sunday, December 19, 2021 at 6:32:40 PM UTC-5, Gary McGath wrote:
    When I said "no Worldcon," I meant that it won't be a Worldcon in any
    meaningful sense, but merely a large Chinese con that will have no
    significance to the rest of fandom. According to some accounts I've
    seen, it will be a very large Chinese con, comparable in size to the
    biggest comic cons. That's enough right there to destroy any similarity
    to normal fan-run cons. The model just can't scale up that much and
    maintain a sense of community.

    I don't entirely disagree with you, but I can't help but think if the members of the Worldcons from the 1950s (and earlier) were dropped into Loncon 3
    or Dublin 2019, they would be appalled. Their question would be similar to yours: where is the sense of community in a convention that large? And they'd be right. One of the things I liked about Aussiecon Three was that at about 1800, it was the smallest worldcon in years, and you really had a sense that everyone could relate to everyone else in some way. But that doesn't mean
    that we should cap the membership at 2000 or something.

    It's not just the numbers. There is no chance that the con will allow
    panels discussing topics that the government doesn't like. Will there be
    a program item on the Great Firewall of China or the treatment of
    Uighurs in the making of Mulan? If you bet against it, your money is safe.

    The Jeddah bid was scuttled by widespread indignation against Saudi
    Arabia hosting a convention. It's too late for that to happen in this
    case, but I hope that pros in relatively free countries will boycott the
    2023 convention.


    --
    Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Peter Trei@21:1/5 to Gary McGath on Mon Dec 20 07:33:01 2021
    On Monday, December 20, 2021 at 10:10:07 AM UTC-5, Gary McGath wrote:
    On 12/19/21 8:54 PM, ele...@optonline.net wrote:
    On Sunday, December 19, 2021 at 6:32:40 PM UTC-5, Gary McGath wrote:
    When I said "no Worldcon," I meant that it won't be a Worldcon in any
    meaningful sense, but merely a large Chinese con that will have no
    significance to the rest of fandom. According to some accounts I've
    seen, it will be a very large Chinese con, comparable in size to the
    biggest comic cons. That's enough right there to destroy any similarity
    to normal fan-run cons. The model just can't scale up that much and
    maintain a sense of community.

    I don't entirely disagree with you, but I can't help but think if the members
    of the Worldcons from the 1950s (and earlier) were dropped into Loncon 3
    or Dublin 2019, they would be appalled. Their question would be similar to yours: where is the sense of community in a convention that large? And they'd be right. One of the things I liked about Aussiecon Three was that at
    about 1800, it was the smallest worldcon in years, and you really had a sense
    that everyone could relate to everyone else in some way. But that doesn't mean
    that we should cap the membership at 2000 or something.
    It's not just the numbers. There is no chance that the con will allow
    panels discussing topics that the government doesn't like. Will there be
    a program item on the Great Firewall of China or the treatment of
    Uighurs in the making of Mulan? If you bet against it, your money is safe.

    The Jeddah bid was scuttled by widespread indignation against Saudi
    Arabia hosting a convention. It's too late for that to happen in this
    case, but I hope that pros in relatively free countries will boycott the
    2023 convention.

    Perhaps those with deeper knowledge of WorldCon bidding rules
    could enlighten me:

    How does this affect voting for future worldcons? Is a bid from
    a different city in the same non-NA country allowed?

    I'm basically wondering if China, with its high population, and
    many fans, can 'capture' the Worldcon, by overwhelming both
    the attending and supporting memberships.

    pt

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From James Nicoll@21:1/5 to garym@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com on Mon Dec 20 16:22:03 2021
    In article <spq6cd$27r$1@dont-email.me>,
    Gary McGath <garym@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
    On 12/19/21 8:54 PM, eleeper@optonline.net wrote:
    On Sunday, December 19, 2021 at 6:32:40 PM UTC-5, Gary McGath wrote:
    When I said "no Worldcon," I meant that it won't be a Worldcon in any
    meaningful sense, but merely a large Chinese con that will have no
    significance to the rest of fandom. According to some accounts I've
    seen, it will be a very large Chinese con, comparable in size to the
    biggest comic cons. That's enough right there to destroy any similarity
    to normal fan-run cons. The model just can't scale up that much and
    maintain a sense of community.

    I don't entirely disagree with you, but I can't help but think if the members
    of the Worldcons from the 1950s (and earlier) were dropped into Loncon 3
    or Dublin 2019, they would be appalled. Their question would be similar to >> yours: where is the sense of community in a convention that large? And
    they'd be right. One of the things I liked about Aussiecon Three was that at
    about 1800, it was the smallest worldcon in years, and you really had a sense
    that everyone could relate to everyone else in some way. But that doesn't mean
    that we should cap the membership at 2000 or something.

    It's not just the numbers. There is no chance that the con will allow
    panels discussing topics that the government doesn't like. Will there be
    a program item on the Great Firewall of China or the treatment of
    Uighurs in the making of Mulan? If you bet against it, your money is safe.

    The Jeddah bid was scuttled by widespread indignation against Saudi
    Arabia hosting a convention. It's too late for that to happen in this
    case, but I hope that pros in relatively free countries will boycott the
    2023 convention.

    I think if you peruse the GOH, you will see at least one well-known
    Western pro who is clearly OK with the Chengdu con.

    --
    My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
    My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
    My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
    My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Gary McGath@21:1/5 to James Nicoll on Mon Dec 20 14:45:12 2021
    On 12/20/21 11:22 AM, James Nicoll wrote:


    I think if you peruse the GOH, you will see at least one well-known
    Western pro who is clearly OK with the Chengdu con.


    I know there's a Western pro on the guest list who's written fiction
    that's rather sympathetic to the surveillance state. We may be talking
    about the same one.

    --
    Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Joshua Kreitzer@21:1/5 to pete...@gmail.com on Mon Dec 20 15:19:45 2021
    On Monday, December 20, 2021 at 9:33:06 AM UTC-6, pete...@gmail.com wrote:

    Perhaps those with deeper knowledge of WorldCon bidding rules
    could enlighten me:

    How does this affect voting for future worldcons? Is a bid from
    a different city in the same non-NA country allowed?

    Yes, it's allowed. The relevant rule is: "A site shall be ineligible if it is within five hundred (500) miles or eight hundred (800) kilometers of the site at which selection occurs."

    http://www.wsfs.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/WSFS-Constitution-as-of-August-1-2020.pdf
    (see section 4.7)

    It doesn't matter whether a bid is from the same *country* as the administering convention -- only the distance matters.

    --
    Joshua Kreitzer
    gromit82@hotmail.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Tim Illingworth@21:1/5 to Keith F. Lynch on Mon Dec 20 20:30:37 2021
    On 12/20/2021 8:19 PM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
    Joshua Kreitzer <gromit82@hotmail.com> wrote:
    pete...@gmail.com wrote:
    How does this affect voting for future worldcons? Is a bid from a
    different city in the same non-NA country allowed?

    Yes, it's allowed. The relevant rule is: "A site shall be
    ineligible if it is within five hundred (500) miles or eight
    hundred (800) kilometers of the site at which selection occurs."

    Yes. And China is of course one of the few countries for which there
    are sites more than far enough from each other.

    Also, "non-NA" doesn't appear in any Worldcon rules, as they don't
    privilege any country over any other.

    It's in the NASFiC section:
    Section 4.8: NASFiC. If the selected Worldcon site is not in North
    America, there shall be a NASFiC in North America that year. Selection
    of the NASFiC shall be by the identical procedure to the Worldcon
    selection except as provided below or elsewhere in this Constitution:

    The English language and the USA are referenced in the Hugos:
    3.4.1: A work originally appearing in a language other than English
    shall also be eligible for the year in which it is first issued in
    English translation.
    3.4.2: Works originally published outside the United States of America
    and first published in the United States of America in the previous
    calendar year shall also be eligible for Hugo Awards.

    China could permanently steal the Worldcon, but they would only have
    seized a few trademarks. Nothing would keep fans in the rest of the
    world from re-creating Worldcon and the Hugo Awards under new names
    and continuing on as if nothing had happened.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Keith F. Lynch@21:1/5 to Joshua Kreitzer on Tue Dec 21 01:19:49 2021
    Joshua Kreitzer <gromit82@hotmail.com> wrote:
    pete...@gmail.com wrote:
    How does this affect voting for future worldcons? Is a bid from a
    different city in the same non-NA country allowed?

    Yes, it's allowed. The relevant rule is: "A site shall be
    ineligible if it is within five hundred (500) miles or eight
    hundred (800) kilometers of the site at which selection occurs."

    Yes. And China is of course one of the few countries for which there
    are sites more than far enough from each other.

    Also, "non-NA" doesn't appear in any Worldcon rules, as they don't
    privilege any country over any other.

    China could permanently steal the Worldcon, but they would only have
    seized a few trademarks. Nothing would keep fans in the rest of the
    world from re-creating Worldcon and the Hugo Awards under new names
    and continuing on as if nothing had happened.
    --
    Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
    Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Keith F. Lynch@21:1/5 to Tim Illingworth on Tue Dec 21 02:10:34 2021
    Tim Illingworth <tim@smofs.org> wrote:
    Keith F. Lynch wrote:
    Also, "non-NA" doesn't appear in any Worldcon rules, as they don't
    privilege any country over any other.

    ... It's in the NASFiC section:

    ... The English language and the USA are referenced in the Hugos:

    That's why I carefully said "Worldcon rules," not "WSFS rules."

    We were talking about the location of the Worldcon, not about anything
    directly involving the NASFiC or the Hugos.
    --
    Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
    Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Keith F. Lynch@21:1/5 to Gary McGath on Fri Dec 24 16:31:07 2021
    Gary McGath <garym@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
    The Jeddah bid was scuttled by widespread indignation against Saudi
    Arabia hosting a convention. It's too late for that to happen in
    this case, but I hope that pros in relatively free countries will
    boycott the 2023 convention.

    Given how many votes came from China (at least 1586 out of 2352), they
    would have won even if every voter outside China voted against them.
    (The total number of votes from China isn't given. 1586 is how many
    votes from China *lacked a street address*.) There were 2006 total
    votes for China, of which 1950 were pre-con and 56 at-con. Winnipeg
    got 332 votes pre-con and 475 at-con for a total of 807. 28 votes were
    for sites such as Taipei or Free Hong Kong, or were "no preference."

    (Actually, 1591 lacked a street address, of which 1586 were for
    Chengdu and 5 were "no preference.")

    Those numbers are from the handouts distributed just before the site
    selection meeting was called to order.
    --
    Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
    Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gordon Dundas@21:1/5 to Keith F. Lynch on Fri Dec 24 14:27:27 2021
    On Friday, December 24, 2021 at 10:31:09 AM UTC-6, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
    Gary McGath <ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
    The Jeddah bid was scuttled by widespread indignation against Saudi
    Arabia hosting a convention. It's too late for that to happen in
    this case, but I hope that pros in relatively free countries will
    boycott the 2023 convention.
    Given how many votes came from China (at least 1586 out of 2352), they
    would have won even if every voter outside China voted against them.
    (The total number of votes from China isn't given. 1586 is how many
    votes from China *lacked a street address*.) There were 2006 total
    votes for China, of which 1950 were pre-con and 56 at-con. Winnipeg
    got 332 votes pre-con and 475 at-con for a total of 807. 28 votes were
    for sites such as Taipei or Free Hong Kong, or were "no preference."

    (Actually, 1591 lacked a street address, of which 1586 were for
    Chengdu and 5 were "no preference.")

    Those numbers are from the handouts distributed just before the site selection meeting was called to order.
    --
    Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
    Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
    Interestingly ,Winnipeg and.Chengdu.are apparently sister cities. Does this make a family dispute?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)