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  • Vancean logic

    From Joel Polowin@21:1/5 to All on Sat Aug 10 12:32:31 2024
    "Let’s give votes to all children in this country, but let’s give
    control over those votes to the parents of those children. When you go
    to the polls in this country as a parent, you should have more power —
    you should have more of an ability to speak your voice in our democratic republic — than people who don’t have kids. Let’s face the consequences and the reality: If you don’t have as much of an investment in the
    future of this country, maybe you shouldn’t get nearly the same voice.
    Of course, part and parcel with this is that convicted felons would have
    to lose their children." — Jack Daniels Vance

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  • From Joel Polowin@21:1/5 to Cryptoengineer on Sat Aug 10 15:06:22 2024
    On 2024-08-10 2:31 PM, Cryptoengineer wrote:
    When I saw the thread title, I thought that, in this group, it would be
    about John (Jack") *Holbrook* Vance, the SF author.

    That was intentional. :-)

    Even today, the Electoral College gives residents of some states
    much more electoral power than others. A Wyoming voter's vote counts
    more than 3x as much as Californian's in electing a President.

    That's a worse option than giving parents extra votes, imho.

    The two "options" are independent. Giving parents extra votes would
    magnify that inequity — imagine the power of Wyoming voters with large families.

    Joel

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  • From Gary McGath@21:1/5 to Cryptoengineer on Sat Aug 10 17:02:17 2024
    On 8/10/24 2:31 PM, Cryptoengineer wrote:

    That said, the notion that the power of the franchise maybe shouldn't
    be evenly distributed is a long standing one. Universal franchise in
    the US is only about 100 years old, and even Heinlein proposed such
    in Starship Troopers.

    Even today, the Electoral College gives residents of some states
    much more electoral power than others. A Wyoming voter's vote counts
    more than 3x as much as Californian's in electing a President.

    If electoral votes were allocated strictly according to population, the
    cities would control the elections. There is a benefit to having a
    regional factor as well as a population factor in making sure no single demographic, even a majority, controls the election.

    That said, the more basic problem is that the current political system
    gives an outrageous amount of power to the president. Congress largely
    does what the president says whenever the majority of Congress comes
    from the same party as the president. This wasn't the intent of the Constitution, and it isn't a good idea. If the president had less power,
    those who didn't vote for the winner would be less disenfranchised.

    --
    Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

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  • From Joel Polowin@21:1/5 to Gary McGath on Sat Aug 10 17:52:24 2024
    On 2024-08-10 5:35 PM, Gary McGath wrote:
    His obsession with childless people starts around 18:40. (Full
    disclosure: I have no children.) And obsession is the word; the speech
    shows this more than any short quote. He cites Viktor Orban as a model
    to follow. He looks forward to future wars with hopeful anticipation.
    The quote in question is at 25:30. (Yes, he's been going for seven
    minutes being hostile to the childless.) But the alleged quote about convicted felons didn't occur in that segment. I didn't listen to the
    very end, but at the least it's not part of the same quote.

    Fake news. That's what happens when you paste an unsourced quotation.

    I intended it to be a joke, hence the attribution to "Jack Daniels Vance".

    Joel

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  • From Gary McGath@21:1/5 to Joel Polowin on Sat Aug 10 17:35:24 2024
    On 8/10/24 12:32 PM, Joel Polowin wrote:
    "Let’s give votes to all children in this country, but let’s give
    control over those votes to the parents of those children.  When you go
    to the polls in this country as a parent, you should have more power —
    you should have more of an ability to speak your voice in our democratic republic — than people who don’t have kids.  Let’s face the consequences
    and the reality: If you don’t have as much of an investment in the
    future of this country, maybe you shouldn’t get nearly the same voice.
    Of course, part and parcel with this is that convicted felons would have
    to lose their children." — Jack Daniels Vance


    This is a stitching together of a real quote from Vance with a made-up one.

    In a July 24, 2021 speech, he said, "Let's give votes to all children in
    this country but let's give control over those votes to the parents of
    those children. [possible ellipsis] When you go to the polls in this
    country as a parent, you should have more power, you should have more of
    an ability to speak your voice in our democratic republic than people
    who don't have kids. Let's face the consequences and the reality: if you
    don't have as much of an investment in the future of this country, maybe
    you shouldn't get nearly the same voice." However, I can't find any
    source for the last sentence, about convicted felons.

    The speech is on YouTube.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBrEng3xQYo

    His obsession with childless people starts around 18:40. (Full
    disclosure: I have no children.) And obsession is the word; the speech
    shows this more than any short quote. He cites Viktor Orban as a model
    to follow. He looks forward to future wars with hopeful anticipation.
    The quote in question is at 25:30. (Yes, he's been going for seven
    minutes being hostile to the childless.) But the alleged quote about
    convicted felons didn't occur in that segment. I didn't listen to the
    very end, but at the least it's not part of the same quote.

    Fake news. That's what happens when you paste an unsourced quotation.

    --
    Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

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  • From Mike Van Pelt@21:1/5 to jpolowin@sympatico.ca on Sat Aug 10 22:35:13 2024
    In article <a2f00df5-c717-499d-a9a0-13513ca03c68@sympatico.ca>,
    Joel Polowin <jpolowin@sympatico.ca> wrote:
    "Let’s give votes to all children in this country, but let’s give
    control over those votes to the parents of those children.

    One of Heinlein's essays touched on this. I think the "extra
    vote per child" was a part of the "only women vote" variation.
    Other variations were "You get to vote if you can solve a
    custom generated for you quadratic equation with integer roots",
    "You get extra votes for certain quantifiable contributions
    to the betterment of mankind."

    I wonder if J.D. Vance has read Heinlein.

    --
    Mike Van Pelt | "I don't advise it unless you're nuts."
    mvp at calweb.com | -- Ray Wilkinson, after riding out Hurricane
    KE6BVH | Ike on Surfside Beach in Galveston

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