Okay, I know that "The Birds" is alphabetized as "Birds, The" and "A Kiss Before Dying" is "Kiss Before Dying, A". I also believe that "El Conde Dracula" should be "Conde Dracula, El". Is "L'Avventura" "Avventura, L'" (with an apostrophe after the "L"?
Okay, I know that "The Birds" is alphabetized as "Birds, The" and "A
Kiss Before Dying" is "Kiss Before Dying, A". I also believe that
"El Conde Dracula" should be "Conde Dracula, El". Is "L'Avventura" "Avventura, L'" (with an apostrophe after the "L"?
And what about "Da 5 Bloods" (which is what started me on this train
of thought)?
eleeper@optonline.net <evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com> wrote:
Okay, I know that "The Birds" is alphabetized as "Birds, The" and "A
Kiss Before Dying" is "Kiss Before Dying, A". I also believe that
"El Conde Dracula" should be "Conde Dracula, El". Is "L'Avventura"
"Avventura, L'" (with an apostrophe after the "L"?
And what about "Da 5 Bloods" (which is what started me on this train
of thought)?
When I really want to drive a perfectionist organizer mad, I give them
Ace doubles.
In article <uik7df$fiv$1...@reader2.panix.com>,
Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
ele...@optonline.net <evelynchim...@gmail.com> wrote:
Okay, I know that "The Birds" is alphabetized as "Birds, The" and "A
Kiss Before Dying" is "Kiss Before Dying, A". I also believe that
"El Conde Dracula" should be "Conde Dracula, El". Is "L'Avventura"
"Avventura, L'" (with an apostrophe after the "L"?
And what about "Da 5 Bloods" (which is what started me on this train
of thought)?
When I really want to drive a perfectionist organizer mad, I give themThey go in the special Ace Doubles section, indexed by number.
Ace doubles.
In?
Message-ID:<d401557d-e039-4d71-8c55-3e6b40abb2aan@googlegroups.com>, "eleeper@optonline.net" <evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com> wrote:
Okay, I know that "The Birds" is alphabetized as "Birds, The" and "A Kiss Before Dying" is "Kiss Before Dying, A". I also believe that "El Conde Dracula" should be "Conde Dracula, El". Is "L'Avventura" "Avventura, L'" (with an apostrophe after the "L"
Most cataloguers move only initial "The", "A", and "An". They leave
other language equivalents as is. So, in most English language
catalogs (or on the shelves) Les Miz will be in the Ls, not the Ms.
Some books and movies have alternate names that are much more well
known than the actual names. You can catalog them under both, but do
you put the physical copy of Marat/Sade under M or P? Most video
stores (IMHO correctly) put Spinal Tap in the Ts.
In article <uik7df$fiv$1@reader2.panix.com>,
Keith F. Lynch <kfl@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
eleeper@optonline.net <evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com> wrote:
Okay, I know that "The Birds" is alphabetized as "Birds, The" and "A
Kiss Before Dying" is "Kiss Before Dying, A". I also believe that
"El Conde Dracula" should be "Conde Dracula, El". Is "L'Avventura"
"Avventura, L'" (with an apostrophe after the "L"?
And what about "Da 5 Bloods" (which is what started me on this train
of thought)?
When I really want to drive a perfectionist organizer mad, I give them
Ace doubles.
They go in the special Ace Doubles section, indexed by number.
--scott
kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
They go in the special Ace Doubles section, indexed by number.
But which side is the A side (i.e., cover upright) and which is the
B side?
I was a member of the Library Association's Cataloguing and Indexing
research groups. They aren't the same thing. Cataloguing is for
where you shelve an item but you can have multipe index entries.
The golden rule is that what you are looking for should always be
in the first place you look for it.
I recommended that libraries should shelve books by size to achieve
optimum use of shelf-space.
Bernard Peek <bap@shrdlu.com> wrote:
I was a member of the Library Association's Cataloguing and Indexing
research groups. They aren't the same thing. Cataloguing is for
where you shelve an item but you can have multipe index entries.
The golden rule is that what you are looking for should always be
in the first place you look for it.
That sounds like a nice rule, but it's only possible if you can read
the searcher's mind or vice versa. And I think most of us can't even reliably read our own (past) mind. Otherwise we'd never misplace
anything. And we could shelve our own books in any order whatsoever
and simply remember exactly where we placed each one.
I recommended that libraries should shelve books by size to achieve
optimum use of shelf-space.
That's certainly the best plan for someone's personal library if they
have a perfect memory and limited space. Except that if they have
perfect memory they wouldn't need to store any books, as they'd have
their contents all memorized.
It's ironic how most of us have very limited space, even though we pay
more for space than for everything else put together, given just how
much space exists: More than 10^100 cubic meters in the known universe.
One of my fantasies is that I'll invent a Narnia closet. I'd leave
out the wild animals, time warps, and evil witches, and just have a warehouse-sized empty space that fits in the corner of my bedroom.
If I could mass-produce them, I'd become wealthy. (But I wonder what
they'd do to the environment. All the air to fill them has to come
from somewhere. And if someone accidentally tunes theirs for a square
light year of space, all at sea level, that could reduce Earth's
sea-level air pressure to that of the Moon. (Does the Moon even have
a sea level?))
A more modest space saving can be accomplished by always using American rather than British spelling: "Cataloging" rather than "cataloguing."
Color, humor, checks, favor, labor, program.
Keith F. Lynch <kfl@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
Bernard Peek <bap@shrdlu.com> wrote:
The golden rule is that what you are looking for should always be
in the first place you look for it.
That sounds like a nice rule, but it's only possible if you can
read the searcher's mind or vice versa.
That's only a problem if you try to keep the index in one person's
head. I use a computer and where necessary the system asks what the particular user's preferences are.
All of the main database systems are broken in the same way. They
store the designer's choice of collating sequence.
As most such systems are write-once, read-many it can be more
efficient to ask the many users rather than the single designer.
I recommended that libraries should shelve books by size to achieve
optimum use of shelf-space.
That's certainly the best plan for someone's personal library if
they have a perfect memory and limited space.
Except that if they have perfect memory they wouldn't need to store
any books, as they'd have their contents all memorized.
The same applies. If you have so few books that your memory is
adequate then it's questionable whether you need any sort of
catalogue, or index.
One of my fantasies is that I'll invent a Narnia closet. I'd leave
out the wild animals, time warps, and evil witches, ...
A more modest space saving can be accomplished by always using
American rather than British spelling: "Cataloging" rather than
"cataloguing." Color, humor, checks, favor, labor, program.
True but even better is to store a token that can be used to display
words in the users' choice of languages.
Short tokens for the commonest words and longer ones for those used infrequently.
I think German might have the best packing density because many
complex terms are compounded from multiple common words.
I think German might have the best packing density because manyIsn't that just by leaving out the spaces between some words? I think
complex terms are compounded from multiple common words.
that leaving out superfluous letters, as American English does, works
just as well. Donuts taste just as good as doughnuts.
Leave out the vowels; Hebrew does.
We had a catalog that did this back when space mattered. Also
printed in very small font. With no spaces.
ele...@optonline.net <evelynchim...@gmail.com> wrote:
Leave out the vowels; Hebrew does.
We had a catalog that did this back when space mattered. AlsoIn my experience, disemvoweling makes text unreadable, even with the
printed in very small font. With no spaces.
spaces left in. My experience is based only on English, but I'd
expect the same is true of Hebrew unless it has only one vowel sound.
On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 4:41:32?PM UTC-5, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
I think German might have the best packing density because manyIsn't that just by leaving out the spaces between some words? I think
complex terms are compounded from multiple common words.
that leaving out superfluous letters, as American English does, works
just as well. Donuts taste just as good as doughnuts.
Leave out the vowels; Hebrew does.
We had a catalog that did this back when space mattered. Also printed in very small font. With no spaces.
eleeper@optonline.net <evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com> wrote:
Leave out the vowels; Hebrew does.
We had a catalog that did this back when space mattered. Also
printed in very small font. With no spaces.
In my experience, disemvoweling makes text unreadable, even with the
spaces left in. My experience is based only on English, but I'd
expect the same is true of Hebrew unless it has only one vowel sound.
Bernard Peek <bap@shrdlu.com> wrote:
Keith F. Lynch <kfl@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
Bernard Peek <bap@shrdlu.com> wrote:
The golden rule is that what you are looking for should always be
in the first place you look for it.
That sounds like a nice rule, but it's only possible if you can
read the searcher's mind or vice versa.
That's only a problem if you try to keep the index in one person's
head. I use a computer and where necessary the system asks what the
particular user's preferences are.
I'm thinking that someone walks into a library or book store, and has
their own idea about where the book they're looking for is likely to
be found if it's present. It's quite likely that whoever decided
where in that building to place each book had a different idea.
For instance when I was looking for a book on bicycle riding and
maintenance, I looked in the transportation section. It wasn't there.
Not until years later did I learn they did have relevant books, but
they were in the sports section, even though they had nothing to do
with sports. (Yes, bike racing is a sport. So is car racing, but
most books about cars don't belong in the sports section.)
All of the main database systems are broken in the same way. They
store the designer's choice of collating sequence.
As in the above case, it's not just a question of what constitutes
alphabetic order, or whether John Von Neumann starts with V, with N,
or with J. Another example is whether books by a given fiction author
should be filed under their real name or their pen name. What if they
wrote under several pen names?
As most such systems are write-once, read-many it can be more
efficient to ask the many users rather than the single designer.
Ask them what, exactly? A knowledgeable librarian or book seller may
know where a book is filed. But they probably don't. Even a computer database may be wrong. The local Barnes & Noble used to have an
in-store computer anyone could use to see where, if anywhere, a
desired book is shelved. They eventually got rid of it because it
was wrong more often than not.
I recommended that libraries should shelve books by size to achieve
optimum use of shelf-space.
That's certainly the best plan for someone's personal library if
they have a perfect memory and limited space.
One complication is that books vary in size in two dimensions, height
and depth. (They of course also vary in thickness, but the way
shelves work, that doesn't matter.)
Except that if they have perfect memory they wouldn't need to store
any books, as they'd have their contents all memorized.
The same applies. If you have so few books that your memory is
adequate then it's questionable whether you need any sort of
catalogue, or index.
I was postulating someone with perfect memory. Not only do they know
exactly where all the books in a large library are, they know the
exact contents of every book if they once rapidly leafed through
it. They may not have *absorbed* the knowledge, but if they have photographic memory they can read the book from their own visual
memory whenever they have the time, and never need have the actual
physical book in their home.
Certainly if someone has fewer than about 100 books, even if they have
a poor memory it's reasonably quick to just look at all of them on the
shelf to find the one they're looking for.
One of my fantasies is that I'll invent a Narnia closet. I'd leave
out the wild animals, time warps, and evil witches, ...
On second thought, time warps could be useful. Especially if it's
a Narnia-style one in which as soon as you leave the closet your
physical age returns to what it was before you entered, even if you
spent decades in there. Anyhow, you can't really separate space from
time. A hypothetical long hallway embedded in small space, e.g. if
I turn my bedroom door into a 100-meter long hallway suitable for
lining with bookcases, without moving the bedroom or the existing
hall outside it (making the baby Euclid cry), that could be used
to send signals back through time (making the baby Einstein cry).
A more modest space saving can be accomplished by always using
American rather than British spelling: "Cataloging" rather than
"cataloguing." Color, humor, checks, favor, labor, program.
True but even better is to store a token that can be used to display
words in the users' choice of languages.
You seem to be talking about computerized storage.
I'm thinking of
real physical books. We're already pretty good at compact storage.
I could already pack more books than I could read in a century into
something I could fit in my shirt pocket, with enough space left
over for the whole of Wikipedia.
And we can get even better at it if we adopt Stross's idea of using
C12 and C13 atoms as 0 and 1 bits in a diamond. This time the shirt-
pocket device, if it stores high-def video, and you accidentally
left it recording when dinosaurs ruled the Earth, it would still be
mostly empty.
Short tokens for the commonest words and longer ones for those used
infrequently.
That's already built into English, and all other natural languages.
It's called Zipf's Law.
I think German might have the best packing density because many
complex terms are compounded from multiple common words.
Isn't that just by leaving out the spaces between some words? I think
that leaving out superfluous letters, as American English does, works
just as well. Donuts taste just as good as doughnuts.
There are people who nag me about my placing two spaces after each
sentence. But I think the improvement in readability exceeds the cost
in extra storage by several orders of magnitude.
Most cataloguers move only initial "The", "A", and "An". They leave
other language equivalents as is. So, in most English language
catalogs (or on the shelves) Les Miz will be in the Ls, not the Ms.
In article <ar9rkilc69is6ss1a...@4ax.com>,
someon...@example.com.invalid (Someone Else) wrote:
Most cataloguers move only initial "The", "A", and "An". They leaveI remember someone pointing this out many years ago on this group when I noticed a DVD shop had Der Golem shelved under D and La Dolce Vita under
other language equivalents as is. So, in most English language
catalogs (or on the shelves) Les Miz will be in the Ls, not the Ms.
L.
Well, they're wrong. :-) Why anyone would want to file "Der Golem" several letters
away from "The Golem" is beyond me. Why anyone would look under "D" is also
beyond me. (And it's especially true for a film like "Der Golem" which has also
been released as "The Golem".)
Then again, video stores claimed to file all foreign films in
"Foreign" but I never found one who filed the "Godzilla" films in
"Foreign".
ele...@optonline.net <evelynchim...@gmail.com> wrote:
Leave out the vowels; Hebrew does.
We had a catalog that did this back when space mattered. AlsoIn my experience, disemvoweling makes text unreadable, even with the
printed in very small font. With no spaces.
spaces left in. My experience is based only on English, but I'd
expect the same is true of Hebrew unless it has only one vowel sound.
--
In article <uil7pr$1rs$1...@panix2.panix.com>,I have a vague memory of an LP or 45 rpm record where the clever
klu...@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
In article <uik7df$fiv$1...@reader2.panix.com>,
Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
ele...@optonline.net <evelynchim...@gmail.com> wrote:
Okay, I know that "The Birds" is alphabetized as "Birds, The" and "A
Kiss Before Dying" is "Kiss Before Dying, A". I also believe that
"El Conde Dracula" should be "Conde Dracula, El". Is "L'Avventura"
"Avventura, L'" (with an apostrophe after the "L"?
And what about "Da 5 Bloods" (which is what started me on this train
of thought)?
When I really want to drive a perfectionist organizer mad, I give them >Ace doubles.
They go in the special Ace Doubles section, indexed by number.But which side is the A side (i.e., cover upright) and which is the B
--scott
side?
--
I have a vague memory of an LP or 45 rpm record where the clever
boys who put it out labeled one side "A" and the other "1."
Was there also a "this side/that side" marking for another?
I have a vague memory of an LP or 45 rpm record where the clever
boys who put it out labeled one side "A" and the other "1."
That reminds me of the British, whose buildings have a separate ground
floor and first floor.
Only if the ten-year-old knows what's going on in the opera. Most
British and American children don't speak Italian.
With a plot involving incest, desecration of a religious statue, and
the Camorra, the Neapolitan equivalent of the Mafia, perhaps not a
suitable opera for a ten-year old.
kfl@KeithLynch.net (Keith F. Lynch) wrote:
Only if the ten-year-old knows what's going on in the opera. Most
British and American children don't speak Italian.
That's what surtitles are for.
My grandmother would always narrate them in English for me. "This
one is
about hippies... all the hippies in their apartment singing about how
they are cold and starving... and now here comes Rodolfo with
cigarettes,
wood, and Bordeaux...."
Paul Dormer <prd@pauldormer.cix.co.uk> wrote:
With a plot involving incest, desecration of a religious statue, and
the Camorra, the Neapolitan equivalent of the Mafia, perhaps not a
suitable opera for a ten-year old.
Only if the ten-year-old knows what's going on in the opera. Most
British and American children don't speak Italian.
In article <uj3suc$akv$1@reader2.panix.com>, kfl@KeithLynch.net (Keith F. >Lynch) wrote:
That reminds me of the British, whose buildings have a separate ground
floor and first floor.
I think that's universal all over Europe.
On 2023-11-12, Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
I'm thinking that someone walks into a library or book store, and has their own idea about where the book they're looking for is likely to
be found if it's present. It's quite likely that whoever decided
where in that building to place each book had a different idea.
That's why there is a distinction between cataloguing and indexing. Cataloguing is inherently error-prone because it requires both the cataloguer and the searcher to share an understanding of where the (single) catalogue entry is. The standard reference work for this is Anglo-American Cataloguing rules. It used to be an enormous tome and got too beig to be printed before the PC age. Libraries had subscriptions to the microfiche service.
In article <uj5ivq$cc2$1@panix2.panix.com>, kludge@panix.com (Scott
Dorsey) wrote:
My grandmother would always narrate them in English for me. "This
one is
about hippies... all the hippies in their apartment singing about how
they are cold and starving... and now here comes Rodolfo with
cigarettes,
wood, and Bordeaux...."
At the start of the pandemic, English National Opera did a staging of
that in the car park at Alexandra Palace in the north of London. Instead
of an apartment, they appeared to be living in their vans. I saw it on
TV. It was rather good.
At the start of the pandemic, English National Opera did a staging ofInstead
that in the car park at Alexandra Palace in the north of London.
of an apartment, they appeared to be living in their vans. I saw iton
TV. It was rather good.
Was Cafe Momus a chip house?
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