• China Worldcon selling "tickets" and offering big perks

    From Gary McGath@21:1/5 to All on Mon Sep 11 08:25:37 2023
    New on my blog:

    https://garymcgath.com/wp/china-worldcon-tickets/

    Normally, when a fan-run convention wants to name a mascot, the concom
    tosses ideas around and picks one. (I remain disappointed that the 2004
    Boston Worldcon called its Uncle Sam-like mascot "Uncle Lensman" rather
    than "Uncle Samms.")

    The Chengdu Worldcon is doing things a bit differently. Whoever provides
    the name for their mascot gets "three physical admissions, attending the Worldcon opening ceremony as a guest, a walk-in reservation channel for
    the Hugo Awards ceremony and the Worldcon closing ceremony, a mascot
    gift package, work to be introduced and preserved in prominent sections
    of the Worldcon publications, a commemorative certificate and a letter
    of gratitude presented by the Committee, a free Pidu-trip, and free
    pickup service from airports to the venue."

    It's also been reported that the convention is selling "tickets" (not memberships) in China through a Ticketmaster-like service.

    This is a strange way to run an allegedly fan-run, nonprofit convention.
    (I don't know what a Pidu-trip is.)

    --
    Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

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  • From evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Gary McGath on Mon Sep 11 07:54:41 2023
    On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 8:25:59 AM UTC-4, Gary McGath wrote:
    New on my blog:

    https://garymcgath.com/wp/china-worldcon-tickets/

    Normally, when a fan-run convention wants to name a mascot, the concom tosses ideas around and picks one. (I remain disappointed that the 2004 Boston Worldcon called its Uncle Sam-like mascot "Uncle Lensman" rather
    than "Uncle Samms.")

    The Chengdu Worldcon is doing things a bit differently. Whoever provides
    the name for their mascot gets "three physical admissions, attending the Worldcon opening ceremony as a guest, a walk-in reservation channel for
    the Hugo Awards ceremony and the Worldcon closing ceremony, a mascot
    gift package, work to be introduced and preserved in prominent sections
    of the Worldcon publications, a commemorative certificate and a letter
    of gratitude presented by the Committee, a free Pidu-trip, and free
    pickup service from airports to the venue."

    It's also been reported that the convention is selling "tickets" (not memberships) in China through a Ticketmaster-like service.

    This is a strange way to run an allegedly fan-run, nonprofit convention.
    (I don't know what a Pidu-trip is.)

    Well, I believe one reason conventions in the US sell memberships rather
    than tickets is that tickets are subject to sales tax in most areas.

    --
    Evelyn C. Leeper

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  • From Gary McGath@21:1/5 to eleeper@optonline.net on Mon Sep 11 11:43:24 2023
    On 9/11/23 10:54 AM, eleeper@optonline.net wrote:

    Well, I believe one reason conventions in the US sell memberships rather
    than tickets is that tickets are subject to sales tax in most areas.

    It's not just that. The word "membership" stresses that everyone is a participant, even if it's just talking to pros in the halls. Selling
    admissions through a third-party agency (and letting it keep a
    substantial cut) decreases the sense that members are part of the same community.

    It seems unlikely that tax authorities will forego taxes just because of
    a change in terminology.

    --
    Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

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  • From Paul Dormer@21:1/5 to All on Mon Sep 11 16:54:00 2023
    In article <udncis$13tih$1@dont-email.me>, garym@mcgath.com (Gary McGath) wrote:


    It seems unlikely that tax authorities will forego taxes just because
    of a change in terminology.

    Well, in the UK, the Science Fiction Foundation (of which I'm the
    treasurer) sells memberships and you get a subscription to our journal
    with your membership. As we are a registered charity, that means that
    for members who pay income tax, we can claim back their income tax using
    the UK Gift Aid scheme.

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  • From Scott Dorsey@21:1/5 to garym@mcgath.com on Mon Sep 11 22:33:17 2023
    Gary McGath <garym@mcgath.com> wrote:
    On 9/11/23 10:54 AM, eleeper@optonline.net wrote:

    Well, I believe one reason conventions in the US sell memberships rather
    than tickets is that tickets are subject to sales tax in most areas.

    It's not just that. The word "membership" stresses that everyone is a >participant, even if it's just talking to pros in the halls. Selling >admissions through a third-party agency (and letting it keep a
    substantial cut) decreases the sense that members are part of the same >community.

    And this is something that is lost in the translation to Chinese, I believe.

    But we also have the issue that, although fans initially made the Worldcon
    bid and started the Chinese Worldcon organization, they have been pushed aside by municipal government which has taken the event over for their own
    purposes. This is how these things go in China, and it's clearly going to provide a lot of good things for the Worldcon as well as a lot of bad things too. You are seeing one of the bad ones, and there will be more. Note
    how supporting memberships are now described, for instance.
    --scott

    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Kevrob@21:1/5 to Gary McGath on Mon Sep 11 22:05:28 2023
    On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 8:25:59 AM UTC-4, Gary McGath wrote:
    New on my blog:

    https://garymcgath.com/wp/china-worldcon-tickets/

    Normally, when a fan-run convention wants to name a mascot, the concom tosses ideas around and picks one. (I remain disappointed that the 2004 Boston Worldcon called its Uncle Sam-like mascot "Uncle Lensman" rather
    than "Uncle Samms.")

    The Chengdu Worldcon is doing things a bit differently. Whoever provides
    the name for their mascot gets "three physical admissions, attending the Worldcon opening ceremony as a guest, a walk-in reservation channel for
    the Hugo Awards ceremony and the Worldcon closing ceremony, a mascot
    gift package, work to be introduced and preserved in prominent sections
    of the Worldcon publications, a commemorative certificate and a letter
    of gratitude presented by the Committee, a free Pidu-trip, and free
    pickup service from airports to the venue."

    It's also been reported that the convention is selling "tickets" (not memberships) in China through a Ticketmaster-like service.

    This is a strange way to run an allegedly fan-run, nonprofit convention.
    (I don't know what a Pidu-trip is.)

    --

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pidu_District

    --
    Kevin R

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  • From Peter Trei@21:1/5 to Scott Dorsey on Tue Sep 19 07:33:22 2023
    On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 6:33:20 PM UTC-4, Scott Dorsey wrote:
    Gary McGath <ga...@mcgath.com> wrote:
    On 9/11/23 10:54 AM, ele...@optonline.net wrote:

    Well, I believe one reason conventions in the US sell memberships rather >> than tickets is that tickets are subject to sales tax in most areas.

    It's not just that. The word "membership" stresses that everyone is a >participant, even if it's just talking to pros in the halls. Selling >admissions through a third-party agency (and letting it keep a
    substantial cut) decreases the sense that members are part of the same >community.
    And this is something that is lost in the translation to Chinese, I believe.

    But we also have the issue that, although fans initially made the Worldcon bid and started the Chinese Worldcon organization, they have been pushed aside
    by municipal government which has taken the event over for their own purposes. This is how these things go in China, and it's clearly going to provide a lot of good things for the Worldcon as well as a lot of bad things too. You are seeing one of the bad ones, and there will be more. Note
    how supporting memberships are now described, for instance.

    This is going to be one unusual WorldCon.

    pt

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  • From Gary McGath@21:1/5 to Peter Trei on Tue Sep 19 11:16:58 2023
    On 9/19/23 10:33 AM, Peter Trei wrote:

    This is going to be one unusual WorldCon.

    One "unusual" feature is that although Lukianenko is still listed at a
    Guest of Honor, his name is missing from recent press releases that
    mention the other guests.

    This is one of the few things about the con that I won't complain about,
    but it will be interesting to see how it plays out at the con. I've read
    that he's making other appearances in China close to the time of the
    con, so I expect he'll be present.

    --
    Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

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  • From Gary McGath@21:1/5 to All on Thu Sep 21 06:54:23 2023
    The latest is that Chengdu has stopped selling full convention "tickets"
    but will start selling one-day tickets. There wasn't any advance warning
    of the cutoff.

    https://file770.com/pixel-scroll-9-20-23-all-that-is-scrolled-does-not-pixel/comment-page-1/#comment-1589888

    --
    Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

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  • From Scott Dorsey@21:1/5 to garym@mcgath.com on Fri Sep 22 00:40:09 2023
    In article <ueh7cv$3g1i8$1@dont-email.me>,
    Gary McGath <garym@mcgath.com> wrote:
    The latest is that Chengdu has stopped selling full convention "tickets"
    but will start selling one-day tickets. There wasn't any advance warning
    of the cutoff.

    And the people who have already purchased such things?
    --scott

    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gary McGath@21:1/5 to Scott Dorsey on Fri Sep 22 11:10:59 2023
    On 9/21/23 8:40 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
    In article <ueh7cv$3g1i8$1@dont-email.me>,
    Gary McGath <garym@mcgath.com> wrote:
    The latest is that Chengdu has stopped selling full convention "tickets"
    but will start selling one-day tickets. There wasn't any advance warning
    of the cutoff.

    And the people who have already purchased such things?

    I assume they're still valid.

    --
    Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From John Dallman@21:1/5 to All on Fri Sep 22 16:32:00 2023
    In article <uekaq3$a2cb$1@dont-email.me>, garym@mcgath.com (Gary McGath)
    wrote:
    On 9/21/23 8:40 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
    And the people who have already purchased such things?
    I assume they're still valid.

    If they aren't, that will /definitely/ sink any future PRC Worldcon bid
    that's voted on outside the PRC.

    --
    John Dallman
    "This isn't a supernova problem. It's a pointy-haired boss problem."

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  • From Keith F. Lynch@21:1/5 to John Dallman on Sat Sep 23 16:56:27 2023
    John Dallman <jgd@cix.co.uk> wrote:
    garym@mcgath.com (Gary McGath) wrote:
    Scott Dorsey wrote:
    And the people who have already purchased such things?

    I assume they're still valid.

    If they aren't, that will /definitely/ sink any future PRC Worldcon
    bid that's voted on outside the PRC.

    Every Worldcon is voted on everywhere that its supporting members are.

    There were so many votes cast from China, that even if everyone who
    voted who was at the (DC) Worldcon or who wasn't Chinese had voted
    against Chengdu, it still would have won.

    Can anyone think of any rules change that would prevent this?
    Obviously, requiring voters to be onsite at the voting Worldcon would.
    But that's not fair to people who want to attend an upcoming Worldcon
    but can't make it to the then-current one. Also, it would mean that
    if a Worldcon is ever held in a place most fans can't or won't go, it
    could be permanently kept in nasty places.

    One possibility would be to separately count the votes of onsite
    voters and of all voting fans, onsite and remote. If the two votes
    result in the same site winning, then that site wins. If the two
    votes are for different sites, then all attending members of the past
    ten Worldcons get to vote between the two winning sites.

    This is analogous to the fact that if no US presidential candidate
    gets the majority of the electoral-college votes, that the House of Representatives then decides who will be president. Except that the
    House isn't restricted to selecting among the two leading candidates,
    but can choose anyone whatsoever (so long as they're eligible, i.e.
    are a US citizen, were born in the US, are over 35, and have lived in
    the US for 14 years).
    --
    Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
    Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

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  • From Robert Woodward@21:1/5 to Keith F. Lynch on Sat Sep 23 21:55:32 2023
    In article <uen5br$l52$1@reader2.panix.com>,
    "Keith F. Lynch" <kfl@KeithLynch.net> wrote:

    John Dallman <jgd@cix.co.uk> wrote:
    garym@mcgath.com (Gary McGath) wrote:
    Scott Dorsey wrote:
    And the people who have already purchased such things?

    I assume they're still valid.

    If they aren't, that will /definitely/ sink any future PRC Worldcon
    bid that's voted on outside the PRC.

    Every Worldcon is voted on everywhere that its supporting members are.

    There were so many votes cast from China, that even if everyone who
    voted who was at the (DC) Worldcon or who wasn't Chinese had voted
    against Chengdu, it still would have won.

    Can anyone think of any rules change that would prevent this?

    Banning bids from PRC. Or less obvious (though not quite as certain),
    only accepting bids from fan organizations who have demonstrated they
    can hold conventions and have at least preliminary agreements with large
    enough hotels.

    <snip>

    One possibility would be to separately count the votes of onsite
    voters and of all voting fans, onsite and remote. If the two votes
    result in the same site winning, then that site wins. If the two
    votes are for different sites, then all attending members of the past
    ten Worldcons get to vote between the two winning sites.

    This is analogous to the fact that if no US presidential candidate
    gets the majority of the electoral-college votes, that the House of Representatives then decides who will be president. Except that the
    House isn't restricted to selecting among the two leading candidates,
    but can choose anyone whatsoever (so long as they're eligible, i.e.
    are a US citizen, were born in the US, are over 35, and have lived in
    the US for 14 years).

    Ahem. That is NOT how the House of Representatives conducts a
    Presidential Election. They have to choose one of the 3 candidates with
    the most votes in the Electoral College, see the 12 Amendment.

    --
    "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
    Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_. -----------------------------------------------------
    Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

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  • From Scott Dorsey@21:1/5 to robertaw@drizzle.com on Sun Sep 24 12:58:10 2023
    Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:

    Banning bids from PRC. Or less obvious (though not quite as certain),
    only accepting bids from fan organizations who have demonstrated they
    can hold conventions and have at least preliminary agreements with large >enough hotels.

    The Chinese fan organization will by then have demonstrated that they can
    hold conventions, however.

    I suspect that this year's worldcon will be very formal, very organized,
    very segregated between fans and pros, and very successful financially. Remember this event is run by event planning experts, with a lot of political pull (and consequently with a lot of external funding available). You and
    I would surely prefer that it be run by fans, but even so it is being run by people who will make a success out of it even if not the kind of success we might like.
    --scott

    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Gary McGath@21:1/5 to Scott Dorsey on Sun Sep 24 11:04:00 2023
    On 9/24/23 8:58 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
    Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:

    Banning bids from PRC. Or less obvious (though not quite as certain),
    only accepting bids from fan organizations who have demonstrated they
    can hold conventions and have at least preliminary agreements with large
    enough hotels.

    The Chinese fan organization will by then have demonstrated that they can hold conventions, however.

    I suspect that this year's worldcon will be very formal, very organized,
    very segregated between fans and pros, and very successful financially. Remember this event is run by event planning experts, with a lot of political pull (and consequently with a lot of external funding available). You and
    I would surely prefer that it be run by fans, but even so it is being run by people who will make a success out of it even if not the kind of success we might like.

    I regard the Worldcon being a fan-run con as something more than a "preference." One that's been more or less openly taken over by the
    local government and its business cronies is a failed Worldcon, even if
    it pulls in a million yuan. (Quickly double-checking that that's more
    than pocket change; yes, it's equivalent to a couple of hundred thousand dollars.)

    But the real test of the con is yet to come. I don't think they've
    posted a code of conduct yet. The interesting questions will be not only
    what speech it prohibits, but how it will be enforced.

    In an American con, the worst that can happen is that you'll be
    metaphorically dragged out of an event, expelled from the con, and
    subjected to public humiliation. In China, you could be physically
    dragged out and imprisoned or expelled from the country.

    Even if that doesn't happen, most foreigners attending the con know that
    safety lies in keeping their mouths shut. Whether attendees
    "voluntarily" keep quiet or need reminding, the outcome will be bad.

    If the success of Worldcons is now measured by the money they pull in,
    then I'm done with them.

    --
    Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

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  • From Keith F. Lynch@21:1/5 to Robert Woodward on Sat Oct 7 19:39:04 2023
    Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:
    Ahem. That is NOT how the House of Representatives conducts a
    Presidential Election. They have to choose one of the 3 candidates
    with the most votes in the Electoral College, see the 12 Amendment.

    Thanks for the correction.
    --
    Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
    Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Gary McGath@21:1/5 to All on Sat Oct 7 21:22:34 2023
    The latest is that the con missed the 30-day lead time requirement for
    sending out the agenda for the WSFS business meeting.

    https://file770.com/pixel-scroll-10-6-23-when-youre-dune-and-tribbled-and-need-a-gripping-hand/

    --
    Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

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