• ATM puzzle

    From Joy Beeson@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jul 11 22:40:48 2023
    There's a free-standing building, almost a kiosk, near my grocery
    which consists of one tiny room containing a teller machine, a shelf
    to sort your wallet on, and a wastebasket full of receipts.

    The machine doesn't issue a receipt unless you specifically request a
    receipt -- so why are so many discarded?

    --
    Joy Beeson
    joy beeson at centurylink dot net
    http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dorothy J Heydt@21:1/5 to jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid on Wed Jul 12 04:24:48 2023
    In article <7k4sai14vhub3i6kkvafoh5dl0t5d93g78@4ax.com>,
    Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:

    There's a free-standing building, almost a kiosk, near my grocery
    which consists of one tiny room containing a teller machine, a shelf
    to sort your wallet on, and a wastebasket full of receipts.

    The machine doesn't issue a receipt unless you specifically request a
    receipt -- so why are so many discarded?

    (Hal Heydt)
    I can't speak to the practices at your local bank, but at mine
    one ends up with one or two "most used" transactions and that
    carries through to whether or not you want a receipt.

    And speaking of ATMs....California has just released Leslie
    van Houten. She is to spend a year in a half-way house. While
    there, she gets to learn about things like ATMs, debit cards,
    cell phones, and the web. She's been locked up for 53 years and
    the world has changed....

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott Dorsey@21:1/5 to Dorothy J Heydt on Wed Jul 12 12:48:25 2023
    Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
    In article <7k4sai14vhub3i6kkvafoh5dl0t5d93g78@4ax.com>,
    Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:

    There's a free-standing building, almost a kiosk, near my grocery
    which consists of one tiny room containing a teller machine, a shelf
    to sort your wallet on, and a wastebasket full of receipts.

    The machine doesn't issue a receipt unless you specifically request a >>receipt -- so why are so many discarded?

    (Hal Heydt)
    I can't speak to the practices at your local bank, but at mine
    one ends up with one or two "most used" transactions and that
    carries through to whether or not you want a receipt.

    Perhaps people get cash from the ATM, put it into their wallet, and notice
    all the other receipts from other ATM transactions in there and throw them
    all out?
    --scott

    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jay E. Morris@21:1/5 to Joy Beeson on Wed Jul 12 22:53:28 2023
    On 7/11/2023 9:40 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:

    There's a free-standing building, almost a kiosk, near my grocery
    which consists of one tiny room containing a teller machine, a shelf
    to sort your wallet on, and a wastebasket full of receipts.

    The machine doesn't issue a receipt unless you specifically request a
    receipt -- so why are so many discarded?


    At least at mine (IIRC, been a while since I've gotten one) the balance
    shows on the receipt but not on the screen. So after they check they toss.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul Dormer@21:1/5 to Morris on Thu Jul 13 12:12:00 2023
    In article <u8nsfq$3ide4$1@dont-email.me>, morrisj@epsilon3.comcon (Jay E. Morris) wrote:



    At least at mine (IIRC, been a while since I've gotten one) the
    balance shows on the receipt but not on the screen. So after they
    check they toss.

    Interesting.


    Here in the UK, looking at the last withdrawal I did from an ATM, there
    was no balance given. And I don't recall a balance shown on the screen
    when you do a withdrawal. I think you can request a balance separately,
    but I've never done that and I don't know if that gives a hard copy.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gary McGath@21:1/5 to Paul Dormer on Thu Jul 13 09:39:10 2023
    On 7/13/23 7:12 AM, Paul Dormer wrote:
    In article <u8nsfq$3ide4$1@dont-email.me>, morrisj@epsilon3.comcon (Jay E. Morris) wrote:



    At least at mine (IIRC, been a while since I've gotten one) the
    balance shows on the receipt but not on the screen. So after they
    check they toss.

    Interesting.


    Here in the UK, looking at the last withdrawal I did from an ATM, there
    was no balance given. And I don't recall a balance shown on the screen
    when you do a withdrawal. I think you can request a balance separately,
    but I've never done that and I don't know if that gives a hard copy.

    At all US ATMs I've recently used, you can ask for your balance on
    screen, but it usually requires a separate step from making a
    withdrawal. At my current bank, the receipt includes the balance by default.

    --
    Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dorothy J Heydt@21:1/5 to Paul Dormer on Thu Jul 13 20:13:24 2023
    In article <memo.20230713121249.19704A@pauldormer.cix.co.uk>,
    Paul Dormer <prd@pauldormer.cix.co.uk> wrote:
    In article <u8nsfq$3ide4$1@dont-email.me>, morrisj@epsilon3.comcon (Jay E. >Morris) wrote:



    At least at mine (IIRC, been a while since I've gotten one) the
    balance shows on the receipt but not on the screen. So after they
    check they toss.

    Interesting.


    Here in the UK, looking at the last withdrawal I did from an ATM, there
    was no balance given. And I don't recall a balance shown on the screen
    when you do a withdrawal. I think you can request a balance separately,
    but I've never done that and I don't know if that gives a hard copy.

    (Hal Heydt)
    At the ATMs I use, the balance shows on the screen before the
    transaction is selected, and the new balance (reflecting any
    deposits or withdrawls) is printed on the receipt.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Keith F. Lynch@21:1/5 to Hal Heydt on Fri Jul 14 00:19:53 2023
    Hal Heydt wrote:
    California has just released Leslie van Houten. She is to spend
    a year in a half-way house. While there, she gets to learn about
    things like ATMs, debit cards, cell phones, and the web. She's been
    locked up for 53 years and the world has changed....

    She also has to learn about all the new celebrities. Some are still
    around from the 1960s, but aren't likely to be pregnant, making them
    suboptimal as murder victims.
    --
    Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
    Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Kevrob@21:1/5 to Keith F. Lynch on Thu Jul 13 21:35:33 2023
    On Thursday, July 13, 2023 at 8:19:56 PM UTC-4, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
    Hal Heydt wrote:
    California has just released Leslie van Houten. She is to spend
    a year in a half-way house. While there, she gets to learn about
    things like ATMs, debit cards, cell phones, and the web. She's been
    locked up for 53 years and the world has changed....
    She also has to learn about all the new celebrities. Some are still
    around from the 1960s, but aren't likely to be pregnant, making them suboptimal as murder victims.
    --


    Let's hope she doesn't try to settle scores with the producers and
    writers of "The Simpsons."

    https://simpsonsfanon.fandom.com/wiki/Leslie_Van_Houten
    --
    Kevin R

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul Dormer@21:1/5 to Heydt on Fri Jul 14 12:51:00 2023
    In article <rxr46C.16sE@kithrup.com>, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
    Heydt) wrote:


    (Hal Heydt)
    At the ATMs I use, the balance shows on the screen before the
    transaction is selected, and the new balance (reflecting any
    deposits or withdrawls) is printed on the receipt.

    As it happens, I've only used an ATM twice this year, so many places not
    only accept cards, they insist on it. I'll have to see what happens with
    ATMs in Germany and Austria when I'm on holiday in a week's time.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gary McGath@21:1/5 to Paul Dormer on Fri Jul 14 08:42:19 2023
    On 7/14/23 7:51 AM, Paul Dormer wrote:
    In article <rxr46C.16sE@kithrup.com>, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
    Heydt) wrote:


    (Hal Heydt)
    At the ATMs I use, the balance shows on the screen before the
    transaction is selected, and the new balance (reflecting any
    deposits or withdrawls) is printed on the receipt.

    As it happens, I've only used an ATM twice this year, so many places not
    only accept cards, they insist on it. I'll have to see what happens with ATMs in Germany and Austria when I'm on holiday in a week's time.

    Stores in Germany don't always accept the big-name credit cards, so you
    might have to use cash more than in some other countries. The only other
    issue I've noticed is that few ATMs accept the old pre-chip bank cards,
    but the ones with chips are pretty much universal by now. It just caught
    me when Germany was transitioning faster than the US.

    --
    Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul Dormer@21:1/5 to Heydt on Fri Jul 14 13:30:00 2023
    In article <rxr46C.16sE@kithrup.com>, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
    Heydt) wrote:


    (Hal Heydt)
    At the ATMs I use, the balance shows on the screen before the
    transaction is selected, and the new balance (reflecting any
    deposits or withdrawls) is printed on the receipt.

    And, it occurs to me, these days if I need to know my balance before
    using an ATM, I'd just log in to my bank app on my phone.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul Dormer@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jul 14 16:18:00 2023
    In article <u8rfrc$134v$1@dont-email.me>, garym@mcgath.com (Gary McGath)
    wrote:


    Stores in Germany don't always accept the big-name credit cards, so
    you might have to use cash more than in some other countries. The
    only other issue I've noticed is that few ATMs accept the old
    pre-chip bank cards, but the ones with chips are pretty much
    universal by now. It just caught me when Germany was transitioning
    faster than the US.

    I certainly had no trouble in Berlin last year, although a few little
    corner shops didn't take cards. It was a very hot week and I kept
    needing to buy drinks.

    Certainly had chip and PIN cards in the UK for many years. I saw a few American tourists having problems when the change was made here, the shop having to get the customer to enter a PIN. What I did find last year in
    Germany was that each shop and restaurant had different designs for their terminals and I had to look to see where to place the card.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dorothy J Heydt@21:1/5 to Paul Dormer on Fri Jul 14 19:42:34 2023
    In article <memo.20230714125117.3244A@pauldormer.cix.co.uk>,
    Paul Dormer <prd@pauldormer.cix.co.uk> wrote:
    In article <rxr46C.16sE@kithrup.com>, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
    Heydt) wrote:


    (Hal Heydt)
    At the ATMs I use, the balance shows on the screen before the
    transaction is selected, and the new balance (reflecting any
    deposits or withdrawls) is printed on the receipt.

    As it happens, I've only used an ATM twice this year, so many places not
    only accept cards, they insist on it. I'll have to see what happens with >ATMs in Germany and Austria when I'm on holiday in a week's time.

    (Hal Heydt)
    If I encounter some place that will *only* accept cards, that
    will be a place I won't do business with. And--just as an
    FYI--US paper currency has "THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL
    DEBTS, PUBLIC AND PRIVATE" printed on it, so a case can be
    made that refusing to accept cash is illegal.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Steve Coltrin@21:1/5 to Paul Dormer on Fri Jul 14 13:42:17 2023
    begin fnord
    prd@pauldormer.cix.co.uk (Paul Dormer) writes:

    I certainly had no trouble in Berlin last year, although a few little
    corner shops didn't take cards. It was a very hot week and I kept
    needing to buy drinks.

    In Ireland the other Worldcon week, I used Apple Pay *everywhere*
    (except the time I used cash just for the experience of paying in
    physical euro), and I never once even had to think about things. Find
    the symbol, blip my watch, bim bam boom.

    --
    Steve Coltrin spcoltri@omcl.org Google Groups killfiled here
    "A group known as the League of Human Dignity helped arrange for Deuel
    to be driven to a local livestock scale, where he could be weighed."
    - Associated Press

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gary McGath@21:1/5 to Paul Dormer on Fri Jul 14 16:39:01 2023
    On 7/14/23 11:18 AM, Paul Dormer wrote:

    Certainly had chip and PIN cards in the UK for many years. I saw a few American tourists having problems when the change was made here, the shop having to get the customer to enter a PIN. What I did find last year in Germany was that each shop and restaurant had different designs for their terminals and I had to look to see where to place the card.

    I'd forgotten to mention that some vending devices wanted a PIN with my
    credit card. If I have one, I don't know what it is. That was as recent
    as this year.

    --
    Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Someone Else@21:1/5 to Dorothy J Heydt on Fri Jul 14 20:01:15 2023
    In Message-ID:<rxsxEy.1y5M@kithrup.com>,
    djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:

    And--just as an
    FYI--US paper currency has "THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL
    DEBTS, PUBLIC AND PRIVATE" printed on it, so a case can be
    made that refusing to accept cash is illegal.

    I know someone who actually talked to someone in the government about
    this, as they thought the same as you. And they explained that the
    word "debt" is important.

    Anything which is pay-before-service can refuse cash because there is
    no debt. For instance, fast food places require payment before they
    give you food, so they could be credit card only. A long time back,
    one of our transit systems wanted to go non-cash. They did everywhere
    except the lines where you paid as you left.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Kevrob@21:1/5 to Gary McGath on Fri Jul 14 19:57:36 2023
    On Friday, July 14, 2023 at 4:39:04 PM UTC-4, Gary McGath wrote:
    On 7/14/23 11:18 AM, Paul Dormer wrote:

    Certainly had chip and PIN cards in the UK for many years. I saw a few American tourists having problems when the change was made here, the shop having to get the customer to enter a PIN. What I did find last year in Germany was that each shop and restaurant had different designs for their terminals and I had to look to see where to place the card.
    I'd forgotten to mention that some vending devices wanted a PIN with my credit card. If I have one, I don't know what it is. That was as recent
    as this year.
    --

    I used up the balance of a gift card I received from my ISP today.
    They put fiber-optic cable into my neighborhood some months ago,
    and when I switched out the DSL for FOC they gave me the new customer
    deal: my monthly rate went down by $40 a month and I got a "thank you"
    gift card in the amount of $100. I've been using it to buy snacks at my local convenience store adjacent to the Dunkin' Donuts and gas station. It has
    no chip, so I always had to swipe it. Today I bought beer at the liquor store with it, and food and some paper products at the supermarket next door.

    There was more than $50 left on it. I luckily got a competent cashier who could
    instruct me on letting the card reader take all the value, and then pay the balance
    due on my regular debit card linked to my checking account. Easy-peasy.

    So I've been drinking the best kind of bheer: fhree bheer!* Dinner was the best
    kind of pizza: free pizza! One of the housemates got a deal from his regular pizza delivery joint. On top of that, a well-heeled client gave him a fat tip tonight.
    So pizza was on Mr Gotbucks. The driver got a good tip, also. I shared bheer and
    ice cream I brought back from the store. Everybody won.

    I've switched over to (free) diet cranberry soda, which I also love. I also got some
    diet cream soda and diet birch beer. Grilled cheeseburgers, sweet potato fries and
    sweet corn are delayed until tomorrow.

    * Some Blue Point Toasted Lager and some Yuengling. The BPTL is brewed in my hometown! (Unless it came from the brewery in Baldwinsville, NY.†)

    † AB InBev bought out the craft brewer, just as it or A-B, as it was, bought Goose Island
    and Shock Top. Oh, well......

    --
    Kevin R

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gary R. Schmidt@21:1/5 to Dorothy J Heydt on Sat Jul 15 15:29:28 2023
    On 15/07/2023 05:42, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
    In article <memo.20230714125117.3244A@pauldormer.cix.co.uk>,
    Paul Dormer <prd@pauldormer.cix.co.uk> wrote:
    In article <rxr46C.16sE@kithrup.com>, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
    Heydt) wrote:


    (Hal Heydt)
    At the ATMs I use, the balance shows on the screen before the
    transaction is selected, and the new balance (reflecting any
    deposits or withdrawls) is printed on the receipt.

    As it happens, I've only used an ATM twice this year, so many places not
    only accept cards, they insist on it. I'll have to see what happens with
    ATMs in Germany and Austria when I'm on holiday in a week's time.

    (Hal Heydt)
    If I encounter some place that will *only* accept cards, that
    will be a place I won't do business with. And--just as an
    FYI--US paper currency has "THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL
    DEBTS, PUBLIC AND PRIVATE" printed on it, so a case can be
    made that refusing to accept cash is illegal.

    That's not quite how it works in the USA, and in many countries,
    refusing to accept cash is *legislated* as being acceptable. Possibly a hangover from a barter economy, but I don't know. :-)

    Cheers,
    Gary B-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul Dormer@21:1/5 to Coltrin on Sat Jul 15 12:34:00 2023
    In article <m28rbib7qe.fsf@kelutral.omcl.org>, spcoltri@omcl.org (Steve Coltrin) wrote:


    In Ireland the other Worldcon week, I used Apple Pay *everywhere*
    (except the time I used cash just for the experience of paying in
    physical euro), and I never once even had to think about things. Find
    the symbol, blip my watch, bim bam boom.

    I finally got round to buying a smart phone just before Christmas after
    Dublin and didn't know anything about paying with a phone. Then my
    sister came visiting about eighteen months later and we were in a caf
    and she paid with her phone (an Apple). I checked my Android phone and
    found Googlepay and installed it, only to fine the phone doesn't have the necessary chip to do payments. :-( (It also doesn't have a compass. No
    use when paying, but would be useful when walking.)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul Dormer@21:1/5 to Heydt on Sat Jul 15 12:34:00 2023
    In article <rxsxEy.1y5M@kithrup.com>, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
    Heydt) wrote:


    (Hal Heydt)
    If I encounter some place that will *only* accept cards, that
    will be a place I won't do business with. And--just as an
    FYI--US paper currency has "THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL
    DEBTS, PUBLIC AND PRIVATE" printed on it, so a case can be
    made that refusing to accept cash is illegal.

    Not the case in the UK. To quote from Wikipedia:

    "Legal tender is solely for the guaranteed settlement of debts, and does
    not imply a right to pay with cash in other contexts.[1] There is a misconception that somebody due to be paid a certain amount of moneysuch
    as a shopkeepermust accept legal tender if proffered for payment;[37] in reality the payee may choose to refuse or accept any specific type of
    payment, whether legal tender or not.[38] As a specific instance,
    following the outbreak in 2020 of the covid pandemic, many shops chose
    not to accept any form of cash due to the risk of infection, accepting
    payment cards only.[39]"

    Footnote 39 is a newspaper item saying that many shops have decided to
    remain card only after restrictions were lifted.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul Dormer@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jul 15 12:34:00 2023
    In article <u8sbp5$4bn7$1@dont-email.me>, garym@mcgath.com (Gary McGath)
    wrote:


    I'd forgotten to mention that some vending devices wanted a PIN with
    my credit card. If I have one, I don't know what it is. That was as
    recent as this year.

    I use my debit card in supermarkets two of three times a week and
    occasionally I have to insert my PIN (which I do remember). I presume it
    is some check to make sure it is still me using the card.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gary R. Schmidt@21:1/5 to Paul Dormer on Sat Jul 15 23:45:32 2023
    On 15/07/2023 21:34, Paul Dormer wrote:
    In article <u8sbp5$4bn7$1@dont-email.me>, garym@mcgath.com (Gary McGath) wrote:


    I'd forgotten to mention that some vending devices wanted a PIN with
    my credit card. If I have one, I don't know what it is. That was as
    recent as this year.

    I use my debit card in supermarkets two of three times a week and occasionally I have to insert my PIN (which I do remember). I presume it
    is some check to make sure it is still me using the card.

    There is usually a maximum no-PIN value, here in Oz it's $100.

    The banks put it up to $200 during the worst of COVID, but it's been
    back down for a while now.

    It's presumably mentioned in the T&C for your debit card, which you
    haven't read. Nobody has read them. ;-)

    Cheers,
    Gary B-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gary McGath@21:1/5 to Paul Dormer on Sat Jul 15 09:29:53 2023
    On 7/15/23 7:34 AM, Paul Dormer wrote:
    In article <m28rbib7qe.fsf@kelutral.omcl.org>, spcoltri@omcl.org (Steve Coltrin) wrote:


    In Ireland the other Worldcon week, I used Apple Pay *everywhere*
    (except the time I used cash just for the experience of paying in
    physical euro), and I never once even had to think about things. Find
    the symbol, blip my watch, bim bam boom.

    I finally got round to buying a smart phone just before Christmas after Dublin and didn't know anything about paying with a phone. Then my
    sister came visiting about eighteen months later and we were in a café
    and she paid with her phone (an Apple). I checked my Android phone and
    found Googlepay and installed it, only to fine the phone doesn't have the necessary chip to do payments. :-( (It also doesn't have a compass. No
    use when paying, but would be useful when walking.)

    Inspired by this discussion, I decided to try again to set up Google Pay
    on my Samsung phone. A couple of years ago I tried and ran into various complications. This time everything apparently went smoothly for adding
    a card, then when I opened the app again it asked for my Google Pay PIN. Nothing before that had me set one up, unless I carelessly skipped over
    a step.

    A Web search turns up advice that I can set up the PIN from the Google
    Pay app, but I can't do _anything_ from the app without the PIN. Nor can
    I find any way to set a PIN up from the browser. So I'm stuck again.

    --
    Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gary McGath@21:1/5 to Gary McGath on Sat Jul 15 11:17:31 2023
    On 7/15/23 9:29 AM, Gary McGath wrote:

    Inspired by this discussion, I decided to try again to set up Google Pay
    on my Samsung phone. A couple of years ago I tried and ran into various complications. This time everything apparently went smoothly for adding
    a card, then when I opened the app again it asked for my Google Pay PIN. Nothing before that had me set one up, unless I carelessly skipped over
    a step.

    A Web search turns up advice that I can set up the PIN from the Google
    Pay app, but I can't do _anything_ from the app without the PIN. Nor can
    I find any way to set a PIN up from the browser. So I'm stuck again.


    Eventually I found a Google support page that explained it was asking
    for my _device_ PIN. Entering it worked.

    That strikes me as a horrible security feature. Encouraging users to
    give their device PIN to apps is just wrong. And why does the app even
    know my PIN?

    --
    Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tim Merrigan@21:1/5 to grschmidt@acm.org on Sat Jul 15 13:42:18 2023
    On Sat, 15 Jul 2023 23:45:32 +1000, "Gary R. Schmidt"
    <grschmidt@acm.org> wrote:

    On 15/07/2023 21:34, Paul Dormer wrote:
    In article <u8sbp5$4bn7$1@dont-email.me>, garym@mcgath.com (Gary McGath)
    wrote:


    I'd forgotten to mention that some vending devices wanted a PIN with
    my credit card. If I have one, I don't know what it is. That was as
    recent as this year.

    I use my debit card in supermarkets two of three times a week and
    occasionally I have to insert my PIN (which I do remember). I presume it
    is some check to make sure it is still me using the card.

    There is usually a maximum no-PIN value, here in Oz it's $100.

    The banks put it up to $200 during the worst of COVID, but it's been
    back down for a while now.

    It's presumably mentioned in the T&C for your debit card, which you
    haven't read. Nobody has read them. ;-)

    Cheers,
    Gary B-)

    I've been using my debit card almost exclusively for years. By
    observation I've seen that there is often is a price below which I'm
    not asked form my PIN, but that price seems to vary from place to
    place, and seems to be set by the venders. (U.S.A.)
    --

    Qualified immunity = virtual impunity.

    Tim Merrigan

    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andy Leighton@21:1/5 to Gary R. Schmidt on Sun Jul 16 14:55:07 2023
    On Sat, 15 Jul 2023 23:45:32 +1000, Gary R. Schmidt <grschmidt@acm.org> wrote:
    On 15/07/2023 21:34, Paul Dormer wrote:
    In article <u8sbp5$4bn7$1@dont-email.me>, garym@mcgath.com (Gary McGath)
    wrote:


    I'd forgotten to mention that some vending devices wanted a PIN with
    my credit card. If I have one, I don't know what it is. That was as
    recent as this year.

    I use my debit card in supermarkets two of three times a week and
    occasionally I have to insert my PIN (which I do remember). I presume it
    is some check to make sure it is still me using the card.

    There is usually a maximum no-PIN value, here in Oz it's $100.

    Not just a ceiling on amount, it asks every X consecutive non-PIN
    transactions. Taking money out of an ATM counts as a PIN transaction.

    --
    Andy Leighton => andyl@azaal.plus.com
    "We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
    - Douglas Adams

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul Dormer@21:1/5 to Andy Leighton on Sun Jul 16 16:43:00 2023
    In article <slrnub816b.hrjn.andyl@azaal.plus.com>, andyl@azaal.plus.com
    (Andy Leighton) wrote:

    There is usually a maximum no-PIN value, here in Oz it's $100.

    Yes, in the UK it was raised to 100 in October 2021. As far as I can
    see, it still is.

    Not just a ceiling on amount, it asks every X consecutive non-PIN transactions. Taking money out of an ATM counts as a PIN transaction.

    That's certainly how it comes across to me. I never exceeded the old
    amount in a supermarket before it went up, and certainly haven't since.
    But I do still occasionally get asked for a PIN.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Steve Coltrin@21:1/5 to Dorothy J Heydt on Mon Jul 17 08:44:48 2023
    begin fnord
    djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:

    (Hal Heydt)
    If I encounter some place that will *only* accept cards, that
    will be a place I won't do business with.

    Businesses in parts of Albuquerque have been getting robbed so often
    that if they didn't go no cash they'd have to close their doors.

    --
    Steve Coltrin spcoltri@omcl.org Google Groups killfiled here
    "A group known as the League of Human Dignity helped arrange for Deuel
    to be driven to a local livestock scale, where he could be weighed."
    - Associated Press

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Trei@21:1/5 to Steve Coltrin on Fri Jul 21 07:56:14 2023
    On Monday, July 17, 2023 at 10:45:01 AM UTC-4, Steve Coltrin wrote:
    begin fnord
    djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:

    (Hal Heydt)
    If I encounter some place that will *only* accept cards, that
    will be a place I won't do business with.
    Businesses in parts of Albuquerque have been getting robbed so often
    that if they didn't go no cash they'd have to close their doors.

    My understanding is that US currency is universally good for paying
    *debts*. Not all payments are debt payments.

    If you go to a restaurant, order food and eat it, you have a debt. Regardless of the restaurant's policy, you could leave cash and walk away.

    However, suppose you go to a food truck and order a hotdog. They say '$2,
    card only'. You offer cash, they can refuse. The transaction hasn't taken place,
    and no debt will exist until you receive the hotdog. They can decide not to complete the transaction.

    pt

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rkshullat@rosettacondot.com@21:1/5 to Paul Dormer on Tue Jul 25 15:03:23 2023
    Paul Dormer <prd@pauldormer.cix.co.uk> wrote:
    In article <u8rfrc$134v$1@dont-email.me>, garym@mcgath.com (Gary McGath) wrote:


    Stores in Germany don't always accept the big-name credit cards, so
    you might have to use cash more than in some other countries. The
    only other issue I've noticed is that few ATMs accept the old
    pre-chip bank cards, but the ones with chips are pretty much
    universal by now. It just caught me when Germany was transitioning
    faster than the US.

    I certainly had no trouble in Berlin last year, although a few little
    corner shops didn't take cards. It was a very hot week and I kept
    needing to buy drinks.

    Certainly had chip and PIN cards in the UK for many years. I saw a few American tourists having problems when the change was made here, the shop having to get the customer to enter a PIN. What I did find last year in Germany was that each shop and restaurant had different designs for their terminals and I had to look to see where to place the card.

    Most US cards are chip and signature...the PIN, if they have one, is for cash advances. I specifically looked for an issuer that would do chip and PIN for travel. When I applied for the card they asked whether I wanted it set for
    chip and signature or chip and PIN. I've encountered a few places in the US where I had to either go behind the counter or, if at a drive through, use a different card because their terminal was fixed/had a cable that was too
    short to reach.

    Robert
    --
    Robert K. Shull Email: rkshull at rosettacon dot com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Trei@21:1/5 to rksh...@rosettacondot.com on Thu Jul 27 14:35:56 2023
    On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 11:08:05 AM UTC-4, rksh...@rosettacondot.com wrote:
    Paul Dormer <p...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk> wrote:
    In article <u8rfrc$134v$1...@dont-email.me>, ga...@mcgath.com (Gary McGath)
    wrote:


    Stores in Germany don't always accept the big-name credit cards, so
    you might have to use cash more than in some other countries. The
    only other issue I've noticed is that few ATMs accept the old
    pre-chip bank cards, but the ones with chips are pretty much
    universal by now. It just caught me when Germany was transitioning
    faster than the US.

    I certainly had no trouble in Berlin last year, although a few little corner shops didn't take cards. It was a very hot week and I kept
    needing to buy drinks.

    Certainly had chip and PIN cards in the UK for many years. I saw a few American tourists having problems when the change was made here, the shop having to get the customer to enter a PIN. What I did find last year in Germany was that each shop and restaurant had different designs for their terminals and I had to look to see where to place the card.
    Most US cards are chip and signature...the PIN, if they have one, is for cash
    advances. I specifically looked for an issuer that would do chip and PIN for travel. When I applied for the card they asked whether I wanted it set for chip and signature or chip and PIN. I've encountered a few places in the US where I had to either go behind the counter or, if at a drive through, use a different card because their terminal was fixed/had a cable that was too short to reach.

    I have found more and more US credit cards now have PINs, though only
    some vendors require them.

    I had to scramble to set one for my Corporate CC last time I arrived in Vegas. Both the hotel, and the shuttle bus required one.

    pt

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul Dormer@21:1/5 to rkshullat@rosettacondot.com on Tue Aug 1 18:26:00 2023
    In article <u9oo7r$d9s$1@memoryalpha.rosettacon.com>, rkshullat@rosettacondot.com () wrote:

    I've encountered a few places in the US
    where I had to either go behind the counter or, if at a drive
    through, use a
    different card because their terminal was fixed/had a cable that was
    too
    short to reach.

    I recall in the early days of Chip and PIN going to a restaurant where
    the reader was on a cable which was long enough to reach the tables. How
    often people snagged it, I don't know.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeff Jonas@21:1/5 to All on Wed Aug 9 02:08:44 2023
    Anything which is pay-before-service can refuse cash because there is
    no debt. For instance, fast food places require payment before they
    give you food, so they could be credit card only.

    Sadly, more food service places now treat everyone as a criminal
    and force pre-payment
    because of videos showing folks ordering food
    and running away without paying for it :-(

    A long time back,
    one of our transit systems wanted to go non-cash.

    Okay, you caught me flip-flopping a bit.
    As a New Yorker, I'm accustomed to anonymity when traveling:
    buy subway tokens in cash and use the tokens as needed.
    Most transportation systems now use some sort of electronic fare card: wireless/RFID, barcode or magnetic stripe.
    One use cards are possible but discouraged
    making total anonymity much harder.
    I've "given in" and used credit cards when refilling reusable cards,
    thus risking linking my identity to the otherwise semi-anonymous fare card.

    --

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeff Jonas@21:1/5 to All on Wed Aug 9 01:56:06 2023
    ... It just caught me when Germany was transitioning faster than the US.

    No surprise there.
    Most countries outside the USA "have a clue" and want to REDUCE fraud,
    whereas in the USA, credit card companies just "write down" fraud as a usual loss
    instead of actively thwarthing it, because THAT TAKES EFFORT :-(

    --

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeff Jonas@21:1/5 to All on Wed Aug 9 01:52:22 2023
    The machine doesn't issue a receipt unless you specifically request a >>>receipt -- so why are so many discarded?

    As someone else already replied: sometimes the printed receipt
    has information that is not on the screen
    or would require a complex sequence to navigate.

    Perhaps people get cash from the ATM, put it into their wallet,
    and notice all the other receipts from other ATM transactions in there
    and throw them all out?

    Agreed: I use the table to reorganize my pocket's contents,
    discarding receipts, wrappers and papers that accumulated during the day.

    --

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeff Jonas@21:1/5 to All on Wed Aug 9 02:00:13 2023
    If I encounter some place that will *only* accept cards,
    that will be a place I won't do business with.

    That's your prerogative and I respect that.
    It's a privacy issue, personal choice, etc.

    And--just as an
    FYI--US paper currency has "THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL
    DEBTS, PUBLIC AND PRIVATE" printed on it, so a case can be
    made that refusing to accept cash is illegal.

    I believe comp.risks recently had a posting concerning
    stores/businesses that no longer accept cash.
    Taking cash is NOT FREE - there are costs to handling cash
    (particularly if an armored car pickup is involved)
    and liability: robbery, theft and "internal loss" (sticky fingered employees).

    So please understand their side too.
    --

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Keith F. Lynch@21:1/5 to Jeff Jonas on Wed Aug 9 03:11:20 2023
    Jeff Jonas <jeffj@panix.com> wrote:
    Hal Heydt wrote:
    If I encounter some place that will *only* accept cards, that will
    be a place I won't do business with.

    Same here.

    That's your prerogative and I respect that.
    It's a privacy issue, personal choice, etc.

    In my case it's for two main reasons:

    * I don't want more ads of any kind, whether or not they're targeted.

    * It's anyone's guess what patterns of purchases may be seen as
    suspicious. Before the Boston Marathon bombing, there was nothing
    suspicious about buying backpacks, pressure cookers, or cell phones.
    And 46 years ago I learned the hard way just how easy it is to be
    falsely convicted of a serious crime. (I also own hundreds of
    "suspicious" books -- along with thousands of non-suspicious books.
    By selectively listing them a prosecutor could "prove" that I'm a
    Nazi, Communist, terrorist, soldier of fortune, pervert, etc.

    I believe comp.risks recently had a posting concerning stores/
    businesses that no longer accept cash. Taking cash is NOT FREE -
    there are costs to handling cash (particularly if an armored car
    pickup is involved) and liability: robbery, theft and "internal
    loss" (sticky fingered employees).

    DC's Metro system had sticky-fingered employees in their parking lots.
    Instead of researching how nearly every retail business in the US
    prevents its employees from pocketing customer cash, Metro instead
    mandated that parking can be paid for only with their SmarTrip
    RFID card.
    --
    Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
    Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Keith F. Lynch@21:1/5 to Jeff Jonas on Wed Aug 9 02:57:41 2023
    Jeff Jonas <jeffj@panix.com> wrote:
    Someone Else <someone.else@example.com.invalid> wrote:
    A long time back, one of our transit systems wanted to go non-cash.

    Okay, you caught me flip-flopping a bit. As a New Yorker, I'm
    accustomed to anonymity when traveling: buy subway tokens in cash
    and use the tokens as needed.

    I heard that they phased those out, perhaps because all tokens cost
    the same, but different trips cost different amounts?

    Most transportation systems now use some sort of electronic fare
    card: wireless/RFID, barcode or magnetic stripe.

    That's what DC's system did. The rail system, which opened in the
    1970s, originally used magnetic stripe cards, which you could buy for
    cash from a machine, for any amount within reason. How much each trip
    cost varied with time of day and distance. There was a place for you
    to sign your name on the cardboard card, but I don't think anyone ever
    did. The cards were ruined if they got damp, folded, or were exposed
    to a magnetic field. And in some places on the trains there were
    strong fields.

    Around the turn of the century, they phased them out, replacing them
    with plastic RFID cards. They're still anonymous, but riders are
    encouraged to register them online so that they can be replaced if
    they're lost, stolen, or cease working. (And they still often cease
    working.) There's a senior RFID card, supposedly allowing those over
    65 to ride for half price, and that is *not* anonymous, and those who
    don't have current government-issued picture ID can't get it anyway.
    But it's a cheat, it's actually "half the standard fare," but they
    define "standard fare" as rush hour fare, so those who aren't riding
    during rush hour often actually pay *more* with a senior card than
    they would with a regular card.

    Now they're gradually trying to transition riders to "mobile pay,"
    whatever that means, but there have been lots of bugs. Both kinds
    of farecards have always been completely mobile. We're not like Yap
    Islanders, whose currency consists of special large immobile rocks.
    I think "mobile pay" has something to do with cell phones. I don't
    know if anonymity is possible with that system.

    Ridership peaked 15 years ago, despite new stations opening since
    then. It's been declining ever since, except for a small rebound
    after the current pandemic started to fade. That's mostly because the reliability has been terrible, despite -- or because of -- constant maintenance. "Once again we're shutting the whole Orange Line down
    for the whole summer, for intensive maintenance. Please take the
    summer off or find another way to get to work." "We're withdrawing
    all 7000-series rail cars from service because their wheels tend to
    fall off. Fortunately, that's only half the fleet." There are also
    problems with safety, and the fares are sky-high and ever increasing.
    --
    Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
    Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Kevrob@21:1/5 to Keith F. Lynch on Wed Aug 9 04:22:26 2023
    On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 11:11:22 PM UTC-4, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
    Jeff Jonas <je...@panix.com> wrote:
    Hal Heydt wrote:
    If I encounter some place that will *only* accept cards, that will
    be a place I won't do business with.
    Same here.
    That's your prerogative and I respect that.
    It's a privacy issue, personal choice, etc.
    In my case it's for two main reasons:

    * I don't want more ads of any kind, whether or not they're targeted.

    * It's anyone's guess what patterns of purchases may be seen as
    suspicious. Before the Boston Marathon bombing, there was nothing
    suspicious about buying backpacks, pressure cookers, or cell phones.
    And 46 years ago I learned the hard way just how easy it is to be
    falsely convicted of a serious crime. (I also own hundreds of
    "suspicious" books -- along with thousands of non-suspicious books.
    By selectively listing them a prosecutor could "prove" that I'm a
    Nazi, Communist, terrorist, soldier of fortune, pervert, etc.
    I believe comp.risks recently had a posting concerning stores/
    businesses that no longer accept cash. Taking cash is NOT FREE -
    there are costs to handling cash (particularly if an armored car
    pickup is involved) and liability: robbery, theft and "internal
    loss" (sticky fingered employees).
    DC's Metro system had sticky-fingered employees in their parking lots. Instead of researching how nearly every retail business in the US
    prevents its employees from pocketing customer cash, Metro instead
    mandated that parking can be paid for only with their SmarTrip
    RFID card.
    --

    Re New York's MTA:

    [quote]

    By the end of 2003, the token system was fully retired, we were all MetroCard carriers.

    [/quote]

    https://gothamist.com/arts-entertainment/brief-history-how-new-yorkers-have-paid-subway

    I haven't made a trip into NYC since the pandemic started, but the Metrocards that
    replaced tokens are being phased out in favor of a tap-and-pay system dubbed OMNY.

    https://gothamist.com/news/mta-omny-explainer-subway-bus-payment-nyc

    The rollout has had its problems. An OMNY card is 5 times as expensive as a MetroCard,
    with fewer features. The straphanger is expected to use a smartphone app or his own credit
    card with a tap-and-pay option to avoid using a transit-only OMNY card.

    The end-date for Metrocards has been pushed back.

    https://nypost.com/2023/05/29/mtas-omny-645m-system-hit-with-software-bugs-costly-delays/

    --
    Kevin R
    a.a #2310

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tim Merrigan@21:1/5 to All on Wed Aug 9 10:15:41 2023
    On Wed, 9 Aug 2023 02:00:13 -0000 (UTC), jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas)
    wrote:

    If I encounter some place that will *only* accept cards,
    that will be a place I won't do business with.

    That's your prerogative and I respect that.
    It's a privacy issue, personal choice, etc.

    And--just as an
    FYI--US paper currency has "THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL
    DEBTS, PUBLIC AND PRIVATE" printed on it, so a case can be
    made that refusing to accept cash is illegal.

    I believe comp.risks recently had a posting concerning
    stores/businesses that no longer accept cash.
    Taking cash is NOT FREE - there are costs to handling cash
    (particularly if an armored car pickup is involved)
    and liability: robbery, theft and "internal loss" (sticky fingered employees).

    So please understand their side too.

    Several years ago the New York subway system studied going with no
    fares, and discovered that it would be cheaper than continuing fares
    because of the savings on maintaining gates and fare booths, and on
    running the "Money Train"* which would go around the system at slack
    times to collect money from, and distribute tokens to, fare booths.
    They decided not to go that way because the powers that be decided it
    would be anathema to let the punters ride for free.

    Note: the fares have never paid for the system, and it's always been subsidized.

    *Pellem 123, anyone?
    --

    Qualified immunity = virtual impunity.

    Tim Merrigan

    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Kevrob@21:1/5 to Tim Merrigan on Wed Aug 9 23:00:30 2023
    On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 1:15:46 PM UTC-4, Tim Merrigan wrote:

    *Pellem 123, anyone?

    Pelham.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Taking_of_Pelham_One_Two_Three_(novel)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Taking_of_Pelham_One_Two_Three_(1974_film)

    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0072251/?ref_=fn_al_tt_3

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelham_Bay_Park_station

    --
    Kevin R

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)