The irony that they positioned themselves as a more ethical
alternative to Chengdu, and then got torpedoed (in large part, one
suspects) by the current governmental shift in Florida has not been
lost on some folks.
Keith F. Lynch <kfl@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
I certainly hope there's nobody who condemns Florida for its politics
who does not also condemn China for its politics.
I suspect few do, which is why there are many people who normally go to >Worldcon who are not going to either Worldcon OR Nasfic next year.
I am kind of sad to see a Worldcon which is not really integrated with
world fandom and is kind of cut off, though.
--scott
I certainly hope there's nobody who condemns Florida for its politics
who does not also condemn China for its politics.
I certainly hope there's nobody who condemns Florida for its politics
who does not also condemn China for its politics. Any such person
cares nothing about freedom of speech or human rights, but just
blindly believes left-wing-good, right-wing-bad, and that murdering
millions of innocent people is just fine as long as it's done under
the sign of the hammer and sickle.
I agree with your basic assertion, and I don't think anyone is
giving China a pass, but it has also been pointed out that the
Chinese had their government forced upon them, while Floridians
actually voted their guys in.
eleeper@optonline.net <evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com> wrote:
The irony that they positioned themselves as a more ethical
alternative to Chengdu, and then got torpedoed (in large part, one
suspects) by the current governmental shift in Florida has not been
lost on some folks.
I certainly hope there's nobody who condemns Florida for its politics
who does not also condemn China for its politics. Any such person
cares nothing about freedom of speech or human rights, but just
blindly believes left-wing-good, right-wing-bad, and that murdering
millions of innocent people is just fine as long as it's done under
the sign of the hammer and sickle.
On Sunday, August 7, 2022 at 10:33:01 AM UTC-4, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
I certainly hope there's nobody who condemns Florida for its politics
who does not also condemn China for its politics. Any such person
cares nothing about freedom of speech or human rights, but just
blindly believes left-wing-good, right-wing-bad, and that murdering
millions of innocent people is just fine as long as it's done under
the sign of the hammer and sickle.
I agree with your basic assertion, and I don't think anyone is giving
China a pass, but it has also been pointed out that the Chinese had
their government forced upon them, while Floridians actually voted
their guys in.
When I urged that everyone should stay clear of the China Worldcon and
say why, he said that it's fine to go to the Worldcon, keep your eyes
averted and mouth shut, and then go home. He didn't seem impressed by my >argument that Worldcons are about expressing a range of ideas and that
this purpose is incompatible with a country that doesn't allow free speech.
You take your subversion where you can get it. Stranger In a Strange Land has already been translated into Chinese. With luck, Coventry will be translated soon enough.
I think bringing science fiction to China -is- a good thing and that opening minds anywhere, in any country, no matter what their government is like is
of benefit. In fact, I think people in a dictatorship need science fiction more than anyone.
--scott
I was a supporter of Winnipeg and won't have anything to do with
the Chengdu Worldcon. During the runup to the site selection I could
not help but notice a remarkable lack of effort on the part of the
Winnipeg bid; it was as though they expected not being the Chengdu
bid to carry the day.
begin fnord
jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:
I was a supporter of Winnipeg and won't have anything to do with
the Chengdu Worldcon. During the runup to the site selection I could
not help but notice a remarkable lack of effort on the part of the
Winnipeg bid; it was as though they expected not being the Chengdu
bid to carry the day.
How did they not notice Kip Russell buying up all the Skyway Soap in >Centerville?
In article <m2k07i64zt.fsf@kelutral.omcl.org>,
Steve Coltrin <spcoltri@omcl.org> wrote:
begin fnord
jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:
I was a supporter of Winnipeg and won't have anything to do with
the Chengdu Worldcon. During the runup to the site selection I could
not help but notice a remarkable lack of effort on the part of the
Winnipeg bid; it was as though they expected not being the Chengdu
bid to carry the day.
How did they not notice Kip Russell buying up all the Skyway Soap in >>Centerville?
Chengdu got their votes in early (1950 pre-con, 56 during the con,
total 2006), while Winnipeg got their in late (332 pre-con, 475
during the con, total 807). Validating advance site selection ballots >occurred halfway through December, at which point those involved in
the process became aware where the votes came from, following which
Standlee took it upon himself to start releasing stats, presumably
in the hopes of drumming up more votes for Winnipeg. As well, there
was an effort to disallow a large number of Chinese votes. The first
effort was successful but not sufficiently to overcome Chengdu's
lead, while the second failed.
There are a lot of Chinese SF fans. It is my impression that
their flagship magazine has slipped somewhat from its heights,
but not too long ago SF World had 300,000 subscribers and
perhaps a million readers. I believe the big three in the US
get around 20,000 subs and newstand sales.
There are a lot of Chinese SF fans. It is my impression that
their flagship magazine has slipped somewhat from its heights,
but not too long ago SF World had 300,000 subscribers and
perhaps a million readers. I believe the big three in the US
get around 20,000 subs and newstand sales.
In article <m2k07i64zt.fsf@kelutral.omcl.org>,
Steve Coltrin <spcoltri@omcl.org> wrote:
begin fnord
jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:
I was a supporter of Winnipeg and won't have anything to do with
the Chengdu Worldcon. During the runup to the site selection I could
not help but notice a remarkable lack of effort on the part of the
Winnipeg bid; it was as though they expected not being the Chengdu
bid to carry the day.
How did they not notice Kip Russell buying up all the Skyway Soap in
Centerville?
Chengdu got their votes in early (1950 pre-con, 56 during the con,
total 2006), while Winnipeg got their in late (332 pre-con, 475
during the con, total 807). Validating advance site selection ballots occurred halfway through December, at which point those involved in
the process became aware where the votes came from, following which
Standlee took it upon himself to start releasing stats, presumably
in the hopes of drumming up more votes for Winnipeg. As well, there
was an effort to disallow a large number of Chinese votes. The first
effort was successful but not sufficiently to overcome Chengdu's
lead, while the second failed.
There was an authenticity issue, as many of the Chinese ballots had
email addresses but not physical addresses. Some claimed that this is
what Chinese people are used to doing. I don't know. Chengdu is already
a big science-fiction center in China, and it's possible that many of
the votes were "sponsored" by someone with a financial interest in
holding a big con there.
My personal opinion is that Kevin Standlee released the information
because of those issues. I share those concerns, but at this point I
don't want that issue to be a distraction. It's done with. I seriously
don't believe he did it to tip the scale.
My concern right now is with getting a groundswell of people to say they >won't have anything to do with a Worldcon where a severely autocratic >government holds sway.
I will occasionally point out that there are more soldiers in the
Peoples' Liberation Army, than the entire population of the United
States.
Standlee took it upon himself to start releasing stats, presumably
in the hopes of drumming up more votes for Winnipeg.
James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> wrote:
Standlee took it upon himself to start releasing stats, presumably
in the hopes of drumming up more votes for Winnipeg.
My impression is that his intention was to *discourage* at-con votes
for Winnipeg as a lost cause which would merely waste the voters'
money and siphon that money directly to China.
Of course this wouldn't discourage at-con votes *for* China; quite
the opposite. The fact that there were so few such votes is strong
evidence that there was very little support for China among people
who attend Worldcons.
My concern right now is with getting a groundswell of people to say they won't have anything to do with a Worldcon where a severely autocratic government holds sway.
On 8/8/22 9:04 PM, James Nicoll wrote:
Who attend Worldcons in the United States, which is exactly
as far from nations that are not the US as those nations are
from the US. On top of which, the US is seen by many as an
unsafe place to enter and visit.
Nine of the Worldcons to date in the 21st century have been held outside
the US, including one in Australia and one in Japan.
Who attend Worldcons in the United States, which is exactly
as far from nations that are not the US as those nations are
from the US. On top of which, the US is seen by many as an
unsafe place to enter and visit.
On Mon, 8 Aug 2022 17:38:08 -0000 (UTC), jdni...@panix.com (James
Nicoll) wrote:
In article <m2k07i6...@kelutral.omcl.org>,
Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org> wrote:
begin fnord
jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:
I was a supporter of Winnipeg and won't have anything to do with
the Chengdu Worldcon. During the runup to the site selection I could
not help but notice a remarkable lack of effort on the part of the
Winnipeg bid; it was as though they expected not being the Chengdu
bid to carry the day.
How did they not notice Kip Russell buying up all the Skyway Soap in >>Centerville?
Chengdu got their votes in early (1950 pre-con, 56 during the con,
total 2006), while Winnipeg got their in late (332 pre-con, 475
during the con, total 807). Validating advance site selection ballots >occurred halfway through December, at which point those involved in
the process became aware where the votes came from, following which >Standlee took it upon himself to start releasing stats, presumably
in the hopes of drumming up more votes for Winnipeg. As well, there
was an effort to disallow a large number of Chinese votes. The first
effort was successful but not sufficiently to overcome Chengdu's
lead, while the second failed.
There are a lot of Chinese SF fans. It is my impression that
their flagship magazine has slipped somewhat from its heights,
but not too long ago SF World had 300,000 subscribers and
perhaps a million readers. I believe the big three in the US
get around 20,000 subs and newstand sales.
China (and India) has a distinct advantage in anything that requires
body counts. I will occasionally point out that there are more
soldiers in the Peoples' Liberation Army, than the entire population
of the United States.
On Monday, August 8, 2022 at 1:33:11 PM UTC-7, merri...@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, 8 Aug 2022 17:38:08 -0000 (UTC), jdni...@panix.com (James
Nicoll) wrote:
In article <m2k07i6...@kelutral.omcl.org>,China (and India) has a distinct advantage in anything that requires
Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org> wrote:
begin fnord
jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:
I was a supporter of Winnipeg and won't have anything to do with
the Chengdu Worldcon. During the runup to the site selection I could
not help but notice a remarkable lack of effort on the part of the
Winnipeg bid; it was as though they expected not being the Chengdu
bid to carry the day.
How did they not notice Kip Russell buying up all the Skyway Soap in
Centerville?
Chengdu got their votes in early (1950 pre-con, 56 during the con,
total 2006), while Winnipeg got their in late (332 pre-con, 475
during the con, total 807). Validating advance site selection ballots
occurred halfway through December, at which point those involved in
the process became aware where the votes came from, following which
Standlee took it upon himself to start releasing stats, presumably
in the hopes of drumming up more votes for Winnipeg. As well, there
was an effort to disallow a large number of Chinese votes. The first
effort was successful but not sufficiently to overcome Chengdu's
lead, while the second failed.
There are a lot of Chinese SF fans. It is my impression that
their flagship magazine has slipped somewhat from its heights,
but not too long ago SF World had 300,000 subscribers and
perhaps a million readers. I believe the big three in the US
get around 20,000 subs and newstand sales.
body counts. I will occasionally point out that there are more
soldiers in the Peoples' Liberation Army, than the entire population
of the United States.
Source? Wikipedia,tells me that the PLA has about 2M active, and about 500k >Reserves. The US population is near 340M.
On Sun, 14 Aug 2022 10:58:10 -0700 (PDT), Peter Trei
<pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, August 8, 2022 at 1:33:11 PM UTC-7, merri...@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, 8 Aug 2022 17:38:08 -0000 (UTC), jdni...@panix.com (James
Nicoll) wrote:
In article <m2k07i6...@kelutral.omcl.org>,China (and India) has a distinct advantage in anything that requires
Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org> wrote:
begin fnord
jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:
I was a supporter of Winnipeg and won't have anything to do with
the Chengdu Worldcon. During the runup to the site selection I could >> >>> not help but notice a remarkable lack of effort on the part of the
Winnipeg bid; it was as though they expected not being the Chengdu
bid to carry the day.
How did they not notice Kip Russell buying up all the Skyway Soap in
Centerville?
Chengdu got their votes in early (1950 pre-con, 56 during the con,
total 2006), while Winnipeg got their in late (332 pre-con, 475
during the con, total 807). Validating advance site selection ballots
occurred halfway through December, at which point those involved in
the process became aware where the votes came from, following which
Standlee took it upon himself to start releasing stats, presumably
in the hopes of drumming up more votes for Winnipeg. As well, there
was an effort to disallow a large number of Chinese votes. The first
effort was successful but not sufficiently to overcome Chengdu's
lead, while the second failed.
There are a lot of Chinese SF fans. It is my impression that
their flagship magazine has slipped somewhat from its heights,
but not too long ago SF World had 300,000 subscribers and
perhaps a million readers. I believe the big three in the US
get around 20,000 subs and newstand sales.
body counts. I will occasionally point out that there are more
soldiers in the Peoples' Liberation Army, than the entire population
of the United States.
Source? Wikipedia,tells me that the PLA has about 2M active, and about 500k >Reserves. The US population is near 340M.
My memory from news and other reports over the years.
| Sysop: | Keyop |
|---|---|
| Location: | Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, UK |
| Users: | 381 |
| Nodes: | 16 (2 / 14) |
| Uptime: | 54:54:57 |
| Calls: | 8,146 |
| Calls today: | 2 |
| Files: | 13,098 |
| Messages: | 5,858,967 |