An open letter by over 80 speculative fiction authors has condemned the >hosting of the 2023 Worldcon in China. The people spearheading the
action are Muslim authors. One of them says: "At the very least, I hope
for a boycott and for people to be educated on these matters so they do
not gaslight and shutdown Muslim voices again. The last discussion about >Chengdu’s bid, Muslims were gaslit and accused of being racist, and >Western-centric."
http://file770.com/sff-authors-release-open-letter-condemning-china-as-host-of-2023-worldcon/
Gary McGath <garym@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
An open letter by over 80 speculative fiction authors has condemned the >>hosting of the 2023 Worldcon in China. The people spearheading the
action are Muslim authors. One of them says: "At the very least, I hope
for a boycott and for people to be educated on these matters so they do
not gaslight and shutdown Muslim voices again. The last discussion about >>Chengdu’s bid, Muslims were gaslit and accused of being racist, and >>Western-centric."
http://file770.com/sff-authors-release-open-letter-condemning-china-as-host-of-2023-worldcon/
I don't think I agree with this. I think this is an opportunity for
western folks to come out and explain to Chinese fans what is really going >on. A boycott doesn't educate. People at cons educate.
--scott
Gary McGath <garym@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
An open letter by over 80 speculative fiction authors has condemned the
hosting of the 2023 Worldcon in China. The people spearheading the
action are Muslim authors. One of them says: "At the very least, I hope
for a boycott and for people to be educated on these matters so they do
not gaslight and shutdown Muslim voices again. The last discussion about
Chengdu’s bid, Muslims were gaslit and accused of being racist, and
Western-centric."
http://file770.com/sff-authors-release-open-letter-condemning-china-as-host-of-2023-worldcon/
I don't think I agree with this. I think this is an opportunity for
western folks to come out and explain to Chinese fans what is really going on. A boycott doesn't educate. People at cons educate.
An open letter by over 80 speculative fiction authors has condemned the hosting of the 2023 Worldcon in China. The people spearheading the
action are Muslim authors. One of them says: "At the very least, I hope
for a boycott and for people to be educated on these matters so they do
not gaslight and shutdown Muslim voices again. The last discussion about Chengdu’s bid, Muslims were gaslit and accused of being racist, and Western-centric."
http://file770.com/sff-authors-release-open-letter-condemning-china-as-host-of-2023-worldcon/
On 2022-03-08, Gary McGath <garym@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
An open letter by over 80 speculative fiction authors has condemned the
hosting of the 2023 Worldcon in China. The people spearheading the
action are Muslim authors. One of them says: "At the very least, I hope
for a boycott and for people to be educated on these matters so they do
not gaslight and shutdown Muslim voices again. The last discussion about
Chengdu’s bid, Muslims were gaslit and accused of being racist, and
Western-centric."
http://file770.com/sff-authors-release-open-letter-condemning-china-as-host-of-2023-worldcon/
Democracy can be a bitch sometimes.
I don't think anyone really knows what the effects of a Chinese Worldcon
will be but there is only one way to find out. I'm pretty sure that it will be a learning experience for a lot of people. That's usually a good thing to have done even if what you learn is just not to do it again.
The Chinese government is aware that 'The West' disapproves of its human-rights policies and isn't going to be taken by surprise if a bunch of Westerners say so. I'm pretty sure that they will be politely ignored
unless they do something egregiously stupid. It seems to me that people who think they are likely to be carted off to prison for criticising the Chinese government either a) have an inflated opinion of their own importance or b) plan to do something egregiously stupid.
An open letter by over 80 speculative fiction authors has condemned the hosting of the 2023 Worldcon in China. The people spearheading the
action are Muslim authors. One of them says: "At the very least, I hope
for a boycott and for people to be educated on these matters so they do
not gaslight and shutdown Muslim voices again. The last discussion about Chengdu’s bid, Muslims were gaslit and accused of being racist, and Western-centric."
http://file770.com/sff-authors-release-open-letter-condemning-china-as-host-of
-2023-worldcon/
On 3/8/22 9:14 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
I don't think I agree with this. I think this is an opportunity for
western folks to come out and explain to Chinese fans what is really going >> on. A boycott doesn't educate. People at cons educate.
You can't educate when you're constantly monitored and at risk of being >punished -- I'm talking about possible arrest -- for telling people what
is really going on.
Gary McGath <garym@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
On 3/8/22 9:14 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
I don't think I agree with this. I think this is an opportunity for
western folks to come out and explain to Chinese fans what is really going >>> on. A boycott doesn't educate. People at cons educate.
You can't educate when you're constantly monitored and at risk of being
punished -- I'm talking about possible arrest -- for telling people what
is really going on.
That's the point. You can I can go to China and tell people what is going on, when Chinese people cannot. You and I risk only being asked to leave
the country, where they might risk their life.
On 2022-03-08, Gary McGath <garym@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
An open letter by over 80 speculative fiction authors has
condemned the hosting of the 2023 Worldcon in China. The people
spearheading the action are Muslim authors. One of them says:
"At the very least, I hope for a boycott and for people to be
educated on these matters so they do not gaslight and shutdown
Muslim voices again. The last discussion about Chengdu’s bid,
Muslims were gaslit and accused of being racist, and
Western-centric."
http://file770.com/sff-authors-release-open-letter-condemning-ch
ina-as-host-of-2023-worldcon/
Democracy can be a bitch sometimes.
I don't think anyone really knows what the effects of a Chinese
Worldcon will be but there is only one way to find out. I'm
pretty sure that it will be a learning experience for a lot of
people. That's usually a good thing to have done even if what
you learn is just not to do it again.
The Chinese government is aware that 'The West' disapproves of
its human-rights policies and isn't going to be taken by
surprise if a bunch of Westerners say so. I'm pretty sure that
they will be politely ignored unless they do something
egregiously stupid. It seems to me that people who think they
are likely to be carted off to prison for criticising the
Chinese government either a) have an inflated opinion of their
own importance or b) plan to do something egregiously stupid.
Gary McGath <garym@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
On 3/8/22 9:14 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
I don't think I agree with this. I think this is an
opportunity for western folks to come out and explain to
Chinese fans what is really going on. A boycott doesn't
educate. People at cons educate.
You can't educate when you're constantly monitored and at risk
of being punished -- I'm talking about possible arrest -- for
telling people what is really going on.
That's the point. You can I can go to China and tell people
what is going on, when Chinese people cannot. You and I risk
only being asked to leave the country, where they might risk
their life. --scott
I wouldn\342\200\231t go if they paid me.
You can I can go to China and tell people what is going on, when
Chinese people cannot. You and I risk only being asked to leave
the country, where they might risk their life.
I don't think anyone really knows what the effects of a Chinese
Worldcon will be but there is only one way to find out. I'm pretty
sure that it will be a learning experience for a lot of people.
The Chinese government is aware that 'The West' disapproves of its human-rights policies and isn't going to be taken by surprise if a
bunch of Westerners say so.
I'm pretty sure that they will be politely ignored unless they do
something egregiously stupid.
It seems to me that people who think they are likely to be carted
off to prison for criticizing the Chinese government either a) have
an inflated opinion of their own importance or b) plan to do
something egregiously stupid.
Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com> wrote:
I wouldn\342\200\231t go if they paid me.
Me neither. I seem to be the only one who walked out of the DC
Worldcon business meeting as soon as the Chinese Worldcon's spokesman
started to speak.
We should be discussing how, within the Worldcon rules, to prevent
this from happening again. And to discuss which nations should not
be allowed to host the Worldcon. Any that doesn't have free speech,
a free press, and freedom of religion, certainly, including China,
Russia, North Korea, and most Islamic countries including America's
alleged ally Saudi Arabia, which responded to a Washington Post
journalist's criticism by sawing him into pieces.
Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com> wrote:
I wouldn\342\200\231t go if they paid me.
Me neither. I seem to be the only one who walked out of the DC
Worldcon business meeting as soon as the Chinese Worldcon's spokesman
started to speak.
We should be discussing how, within the Worldcon rules, to prevent
this from happening again. And to discuss which nations should not
be allowed to host the Worldcon. Any that doesn't have free speech,
a free press, and freedom of religion, certainly, including China,
Russia, North Korea, and most Islamic countries including America's
alleged ally Saudi Arabia, which responded to a Washington Post
journalist's criticism by sawing him into pieces.
Bernard Peek <bap@shrdlu.com> wrote:
I don't think anyone really knows what the effects of a Chinese
Worldcon will be but there is only one way to find out. I'm pretty
sure that it will be a learning experience for a lot of people.
I for one prefer to learn from others' mistakes rather than my own.
Some learning experiences are not survivable.
The Chinese government is aware that 'The West' disapproves of its
human-rights policies and isn't going to be taken by surprise if a
bunch of Westerners say so.
I'm sure they wouldn't be taken by surprise, but will be fully
prepared to immediately haul away the offending fans in handcuffs,
never to be seen again.
I'm pretty sure that they will be politely ignored unless they do
something egregiously stupid.
Something stupid like open their mouth while in China.
On 2022-03-09, Keith F. Lynch <kfl@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com> wrote:
I wouldn\342\200\231t go if they paid me.
Me neither. I seem to be the only one who walked out of the DC
Worldcon business meeting as soon as the Chinese Worldcon's
spokesman started to speak.
We should be discussing how, within the Worldcon rules, to
prevent this from happening again. And to discuss which
nations should not be allowed to host the Worldcon. Any that
doesn't have free speech, a free press, and freedom of
religion, certainly, including China, Russia, North Korea, and
most Islamic countries including America's alleged ally Saudi
Arabia, which responded to a Washington Post journalist's
criticism by sawing him into pieces.
You could draft a change to the WSFS constitution to that
effect. The problem is that there are no countries that
unambiguously comply with your proposed restrictions.
On 2022-03-09, Keith F. Lynch <kfl@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
Bernard Peek <bap@shrdlu.com> wrote:
I don't think anyone really knows what the effects of a
Chinese Worldcon will be but there is only one way to find
out. I'm pretty sure that it will be a learning experience
for a lot of people.
I for one prefer to learn from others' mistakes rather than my
own. Some learning experiences are not survivable.
The Chinese government is aware that 'The West' disapproves of
its human-rights policies and isn't going to be taken by
surprise if a bunch of Westerners say so.
I'm sure they wouldn't be taken by surprise, but will be fully
prepared to immediately haul away the offending fans in
handcuffs, never to be seen again.
I'm pretty sure that they will be politely ignored unless they
do something egregiously stupid.
Something stupid like open their mouth while in China.
I said egregiously stupid. The Chinese are likely to consider
someone who comments adversely on the government as boorish
rather than criminal. But anyone going there looking for trouble
will certainly find as much as they can handle, and more.
My late Brother-in-Law went into his hotel room in Germany,
stepped on to the balcony overlooking the town square and locked
the door behind him. He proceded to deliver one of Hitler's
speeches at full volume complete with theatrical gestures. He
was eventually taken into police custody, escorted to the
nearest border and told never to darken their borders again.
Deporting idiots is easier and cheaper than keeping them in
jail. And it doesn't have diplomatic repercussions. Even better
they will then be a fundamental pain to someone else.
I said egregiously stupid. The Chinese are likely to consider someone who comments adversely on the government as boorish rather than criminal. But anyone going there looking for trouble will certainly find as much as they can handle, and more.
One of the convention guests is Sergey Lukianenko, a Russian author who
loves the Ukraine invasion and has called the Ukrainians Nazis.
And yet, China has a long history of arresting foreigners who
displease them, even at the cost of an international incident. The
most prominent cases are missionaries who violate China's brutal
restrictions on religious freedom, but they've also been known to
arrest foreign billionaires purely for political purposes,
sometimes with the *intent* of causing a diplomatic incident.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/12/world/asia/china-foreigners-
detained.html
Even the US is hesitant to get too involved in such a conflict.
On 3/9/22 4:37 PM, Gary McGath wrote:
One of the convention guests is Sergey Lukianenko, a Russian author who
loves the Ukraine invasion and has called the Ukrainians Nazis.
Here's another call for disinviting Lukianenko. I don't like the idea of >disinviting speakers who have popular, even contemptible, views once
they've been invited. Rather, the audience should have the opportunity
to demolish them with questions. In China, though, that can be a risky
thing to do.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
And yet, China has a long history of arresting foreigners who
displease them, even at the cost of an international incident.
The most prominent cases are missionaries who violate China's
brutal restrictions on religious freedom, but they've also been
known to arrest foreign billionaires purely for political
purposes, sometimes with the *intent* of causing a diplomatic
incident.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/12/world/asia/china-foreigners- >>detained.html
Yes, precisely.
It's interesting to watch that list because there are some
people on there who did egregious things that one would
certainly expect to get such a response but there are ALSO a
large number of people who were arrested only as a response to
some Chinese citizen being arrested in another country.
Even the US is hesitant to get too involved in such a conflict.
That's the point of doing it. "You arrest our people for
spying, we'll arrest your people for spying whether or not we
have evidence."
These two sorts of arrests are NOT arrests of random Americans
who have said things offhandedly in public about the Chinese
government. --scott
The Nazi thing has an interesting history, though, and it's kind of understandable from the viewpoint of the Russian government.
There's of course been a longstanding dislike of the Czar going way back,
but a couple of things after the revolution (namely the forced collectivization
and the anti-kulak campaigns) which caused demonstrations in Ukraine and a huge surge of resentment against the Soviet government in the 1920s. The widespread famine which resulted as a consequence of the collectivization made things much worse. So when the Germans started taking land in the 1930s,
a lot of Ukranians put their lot in with Germany figuring that they can't be any worse than the Russians.
There were Ukranian brigades in the German army and of course there have always been a lot of Germans living in Ukraine anyway. All of this turned out badly for Germany and Ukraine in the end.
But... as a consequence with a lot of Russians whose heads are stuck in the Stalin era, they associate Ukrainian resistance with Nazis. And many of
them are genuinely confused about why the West would support them.
Lets look at the case of Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor. The
"egregiously stupid" thing they did was to be in China when the
government needed someone to retaliate against for the detention
of Meng Wanzhou. They were held for over a year before they were
charged with anything. They were released almost three years
after their arrest, following closed-door negotiations between
the Canadian and Chinese governments.
I don't think Keith's scenario of mass arrests is likely.
And there's the Azov battalion, which really is heavily associated with >Nazis. It operates under Ukraine's armed forces, though it often does
stuff without authorization.
kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote in
That's the point of doing it. "You arrest our people for
spying, we'll arrest your people for spying whether or not we
have evidence."
These two sorts of arrests are NOT arrests of random Americans
who have said things offhandedly in public about the Chinese
government.
If they're looking to make a political piont, the subject of the
arrest may well be random.
Ninapenda Jibini <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote in
That's the point of doing it. "You arrest our people for
spying, we'll arrest your people for spying whether or not we
have evidence."
These two sorts of arrests are NOT arrests of random Americans
who have said things offhandedly in public about the Chinese
government.
If they're looking to make a political piont, the subject of the
arrest may well be random.
Random with constraints, perhaps. They'll pick someone
guaranteed to get publicity, because that's what they want.
Gary McGath <garym@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
Lets look at the case of Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor. The
"egregiously stupid" thing they did was to be in China when the
government needed someone to retaliate against for the detention
of Meng Wanzhou. They were held for over a year before they were
charged with anything. They were released almost three years
after their arrest, following closed-door negotiations between
the Canadian and Chinese governments.
Indeed. Anyone here who goes to the Chinese Worldcon and gets
arrested, don't come running to me. All I can do is warn people.
It's especially the ones who think they'll be able to "educate" the
Chinese and imagine their foreign status will protect them who are
walking into major trouble.
It's common to hear of Americans abroad who think the Bill of Rights
protects them no matter where they are. It doesn't even do a great job
of protecting us here in the USA.
Gary McGath <garym@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
It's especially the ones who think they'll be able to "educate" the
Chinese and imagine their foreign status will protect them who are
walking into major trouble.
Indeed. Acting like idiot missionaries is always a bad plan.
Or like any other kind of missionary. The John Birch Society is named
for a Christian missionary in China, who was murdered or executed by >Communists there. (Is there a difference between a murder and an
execution in a nation ruled by thugs?)
Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:
Gary McGath <garym@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
It's especially the ones who think they'll be able to "educate" the
Chinese and imagine their foreign status will protect them who are
walking into major trouble.
Right. Very few fans have diplomatic immunity.
Indeed. Acting like idiot missionaries is always a bad plan.
Or like any other kind of missionary. The John Birch Society is named
for a Christian missionary in China, who was murdered or executed by Communists there. (Is there a difference between a murder and an
execution in a nation ruled by thugs?)
In article <t0lgc1$qd0$1@reader1.panix.com>,
"Keith F. Lynch" <kfl@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
Or like any other kind of missionary. The John Birch Society is named
for a Christian missionary in China, who was murdered or executed by
Communists there. (Is there a difference between a murder and an
execution in a nation ruled by thugs?)
Birch was an US Army officer at the time (late August 1945),
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