It is a pity that this will not be found in the MSM:
https://www.pundit.co.nz/content/lets-put-down-our-chisels-and-let-te-tiriti-o-waitangi-evolve
On Tue, 06 Feb 2024 08:45:53 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:
It is a pity that this will not be found in the MSM:
https://www.pundit.co.nz/content/lets-put-down-our-chisels-and-let-te-tiriti-o-waitangi-evolve
The sentiments were however heard at this Waitangi Day and at many
previously - it is the sentiment of working together for the good of
all New Zealanders. There have been some mistakes made in various
treaty settlements (in particular one settlement was fairly quickly
lost though the recipients not being prepared - that is now taken into >account before settlements are made). But settlements for past wrongs
are relatively small compared to the need to involve all New
Zealanders in decisions. Most government will make a some decisions
without consultation, and not all will agree with every decision - but
the consultation envisaged in the Treaty needs to be tried more often
on some of the issues that are not seeking redress for past wrongs.
That will require honesty and seeking a common purpose - as an example
of a decision not in accordance with needs that would have been better >identified through consultation, we have a government saying they are >concerned at cost of living pressures but condemning those on the
minimum wage to going backwards - purely to fund tax cuts for
landlords and possibly those on the highest tax rate.
I find most of the Pundit articles well worth reading - the one below
the article above has a similar theme: >https://www.pundit.co.nz/content/our-understandings-of-te-tiriti-has-evolved-organically
and the one below that also worth reading but for quite different
reasons
On Tue, 06 Feb 2024 10:26:25 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>No translation needed - the Treaty in Maori was read to them before
wrote:
On Tue, 06 Feb 2024 08:45:53 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>wrote:None of which is about what the article outlined - which was the way
It is a pity that this will not be found in the MSM:
https://www.pundit.co.nz/content/lets-put-down-our-chisels-and-let-te-tiriti-o-waitangi-evolve
The sentiments were however heard at this Waitangi Day and at many >>previously - it is the sentiment of working together for the good of
all New Zealanders. There have been some mistakes made in various
treaty settlements (in particular one settlement was fairly quickly
lost though the recipients not being prepared - that is now taken into >>account before settlements are made). But settlements for past wrongs
are relatively small compared to the need to involve all New
Zealanders in decisions. Most government will make a some decisions
without consultation, and not all will agree with every decision - but
the consultation envisaged in the Treaty needs to be tried more often
on some of the issues that are not seeking redress for past wrongs.
That will require honesty and seeking a common purpose - as an example
of a decision not in accordance with needs that would have been better >>identified through consultation, we have a government saying they are >>concerned at cost of living pressures but condemning those on the
minimum wage to going backwards - purely to fund tax cuts for
landlords and possibly those on the highest tax rate.
the Treaty should be considered and interpreted. You have mentioned
current events of recent days and recent political developments, the
article takes a view of how the Treaty and its subsequent history
should be applied today and in the future.
I find most of the Pundit articles well worth reading - the one below
the article above has a similar theme: >>https://www.pundit.co.nz/content/our-understandings-of-te-tiriti-has-evolved-organically
and the one below that also worth reading but for quite different
reasons
Never mentioned is the fact that Maori had no concept of the written
word. It was the colonists (missionaries in this case) that
introduced the concept of a Maori written language using the Latin
alphabet:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C4%81ori_language
It is fairly safe to assume that those Maori who signed any version of
the Treaty could not read or write,therefore had to rely on aural
translation by the colonists.
Also interesting that Maori visited the UK long before the Treaty was
signed.
On Tue, 06 Feb 2024 11:36:05 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:
On Tue, 06 Feb 2024 10:26:25 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>wrote:No translation needed - the Treaty in Maori was read to them before
On Tue, 06 Feb 2024 08:45:53 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>wrote:None of which is about what the article outlined - which was the way
It is a pity that this will not be found in the MSM:
https://www.pundit.co.nz/content/lets-put-down-our-chisels-and-let-te-tiriti-o-waitangi-evolve
The sentiments were however heard at this Waitangi Day and at many >>>previously - it is the sentiment of working together for the good of
all New Zealanders. There have been some mistakes made in various
treaty settlements (in particular one settlement was fairly quickly
lost though the recipients not being prepared - that is now taken into >>>account before settlements are made). But settlements for past wrongs >>>are relatively small compared to the need to involve all New
Zealanders in decisions. Most government will make a some decisions >>>without consultation, and not all will agree with every decision - but >>>the consultation envisaged in the Treaty needs to be tried more often
on some of the issues that are not seeking redress for past wrongs.
That will require honesty and seeking a common purpose - as an example
of a decision not in accordance with needs that would have been better >>>identified through consultation, we have a government saying they are >>>concerned at cost of living pressures but condemning those on the
minimum wage to going backwards - purely to fund tax cuts for
landlords and possibly those on the highest tax rate.
the Treaty should be considered and interpreted. You have mentioned >>current events of recent days and recent political developments, the >>article takes a view of how the Treaty and its subsequent history
should be applied today and in the future.
I find most of the Pundit articles well worth reading - the one below
the article above has a similar theme: >>>https://www.pundit.co.nz/content/our-understandings-of-te-tiriti-has-evolved-organically
and the one below that also worth reading but for quite different
reasons
Never mentioned is the fact that Maori had no concept of the written
word. It was the colonists (missionaries in this case) that
introduced the concept of a Maori written language using the Latin >>alphabet:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C4%81ori_language
It is fairly safe to assume that those Maori who signed any version of
the Treaty could not read or write,therefore had to rely on aural >>translation by the colonists.
they signed.
As people with strong aural traditions, they probably
remembered better than the Europeans what was said. Quite a few people >involved in the process of developing Ti Tiriti were to at least some
extent bi-lingual.
There was an agreed wording in Maori but not as
written in the English language.
See the link from above: >https://www.pundit.co.nz/content/our-understandings-of-te-tiriti-has-evolved-organically
Also interesting that Maori visited the UK long before the Treaty was >>signed.
On Tue, 06 Feb 2024 16:54:50 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>No, while the original treaty document has physically deteriorated, we
wrote:
On Tue, 06 Feb 2024 11:36:05 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>wrote:
On Tue, 06 Feb 2024 10:26:25 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>wrote:No translation needed - the Treaty in Maori was read to them before
On Tue, 06 Feb 2024 08:45:53 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>wrote:None of which is about what the article outlined - which was the way
It is a pity that this will not be found in the MSM:
https://www.pundit.co.nz/content/lets-put-down-our-chisels-and-let-te-tiriti-o-waitangi-evolve
The sentiments were however heard at this Waitangi Day and at many >>>>previously - it is the sentiment of working together for the good of >>>>all New Zealanders. There have been some mistakes made in various >>>>treaty settlements (in particular one settlement was fairly quickly >>>>lost though the recipients not being prepared - that is now taken into >>>>account before settlements are made). But settlements for past wrongs >>>>are relatively small compared to the need to involve all New
Zealanders in decisions. Most government will make a some decisions >>>>without consultation, and not all will agree with every decision - but >>>>the consultation envisaged in the Treaty needs to be tried more often >>>>on some of the issues that are not seeking redress for past wrongs. >>>>That will require honesty and seeking a common purpose - as an example >>>>of a decision not in accordance with needs that would have been better >>>>identified through consultation, we have a government saying they are >>>>concerned at cost of living pressures but condemning those on the >>>>minimum wage to going backwards - purely to fund tax cuts for
landlords and possibly those on the highest tax rate.
the Treaty should be considered and interpreted. You have mentioned >>>current events of recent days and recent political developments, the >>>article takes a view of how the Treaty and its subsequent history
should be applied today and in the future.
I find most of the Pundit articles well worth reading - the one below >>>>the article above has a similar theme: >>>>https://www.pundit.co.nz/content/our-understandings-of-te-tiriti-has-evolved-organically
and the one below that also worth reading but for quite different >>>>reasons
Never mentioned is the fact that Maori had no concept of the written >>>word. It was the colonists (missionaries in this case) that
introduced the concept of a Maori written language using the Latin >>>alphabet:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C4%81ori_language
It is fairly safe to assume that those Maori who signed any version of >>>the Treaty could not read or write,therefore had to rely on aural >>>translation by the colonists.
they signed.
Do you not comprehend that 'reading' it was an aural translation? Who
is to say that the words uttered were the words written when the
written language was not a Maori concept?
As people with strong aural traditions, they probably
remembered better than the Europeans what was said. Quite a few people >>involved in the process of developing Ti Tiriti were to at least some >>extent bi-lingual.
None of them Maori - unless you can cite otherwise. In all the
reading I have done the only bilinguals were Europeans in 1840.
It was because those putting the Treaty forward wanted agreement fromThere was an agreed wording in Maori but not asWhy do you think that was the case? Could it have been because the
written in the English language.
See the link from above: >>https://www.pundit.co.nz/content/our-understandings-of-te-tiriti-has-evolved-organically
only people who were bilingual wanted to represent the Treaty wording
as different to Maori versus English speakers?
Yes - as I referred to above. Wasn't one of them a navigator who was
Also interesting that Maori visited the UK long before the Treaty was >>>signed.
On Tue, 06 Feb 2024 18:53:09 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>A concept foreign to every Maori at the time.
wrote:
On Tue, 06 Feb 2024 16:54:50 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>wrote:No, while the original treaty document has physically deteriorated, we
On Tue, 06 Feb 2024 11:36:05 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>wrote:
On Tue, 06 Feb 2024 10:26:25 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>wrote:No translation needed - the Treaty in Maori was read to them before
On Tue, 06 Feb 2024 08:45:53 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>wrote:None of which is about what the article outlined - which was the way >>>>the Treaty should be considered and interpreted. You have mentioned >>>>current events of recent days and recent political developments, the >>>>article takes a view of how the Treaty and its subsequent history >>>>should be applied today and in the future.
It is a pity that this will not be found in the MSM:
https://www.pundit.co.nz/content/lets-put-down-our-chisels-and-let-te-tiriti-o-waitangi-evolve
The sentiments were however heard at this Waitangi Day and at many >>>>>previously - it is the sentiment of working together for the good of >>>>>all New Zealanders. There have been some mistakes made in various >>>>>treaty settlements (in particular one settlement was fairly quickly >>>>>lost though the recipients not being prepared - that is now taken into >>>>>account before settlements are made). But settlements for past wrongs >>>>>are relatively small compared to the need to involve all New >>>>>Zealanders in decisions. Most government will make a some decisions >>>>>without consultation, and not all will agree with every decision - but >>>>>the consultation envisaged in the Treaty needs to be tried more often >>>>>on some of the issues that are not seeking redress for past wrongs. >>>>>That will require honesty and seeking a common purpose - as an example >>>>>of a decision not in accordance with needs that would have been better >>>>>identified through consultation, we have a government saying they are >>>>>concerned at cost of living pressures but condemning those on the >>>>>minimum wage to going backwards - purely to fund tax cuts for >>>>>landlords and possibly those on the highest tax rate.
I find most of the Pundit articles well worth reading - the one below >>>>>the article above has a similar theme: >>>>>https://www.pundit.co.nz/content/our-understandings-of-te-tiriti-has-evolved-organically
and the one below that also worth reading but for quite different >>>>>reasons
Never mentioned is the fact that Maori had no concept of the written >>>>word. It was the colonists (missionaries in this case) that
introduced the concept of a Maori written language using the Latin >>>>alphabet:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C4%81ori_language
It is fairly safe to assume that those Maori who signed any version of >>>>the Treaty could not read or write,therefore had to rely on aural >>>>translation by the colonists.
they signed.
Do you not comprehend that 'reading' it was an aural translation? Who
is to say that the words uttered were the words written when the
written language was not a Maori concept?
can see that it was written in the Maori Language.
Some may have been
able to read it, but it was also read to all those present. No
translation required.
As people with strong aural traditions, they probably
remembered better than the Europeans what was said. Quite a few people >>>involved in the process of developing Ti Tiriti were to at least some >>>extent bi-lingual.
None of them Maori - unless you can cite otherwise. In all the
reading I have done the only bilinguals were Europeans in 1840.
Somebody drew our attention to Maori having reached England prior to
the signing of the Treaty,
and that they were fluent in English.
Certainly there had been a lot of trade between Maori and "Europeans"
- with people becoming bi-lingual due to those activities as well as
Church leaders who came to New Zealand
It was because those putting the Treaty forward wanted agreement from
There was an agreed wording in Maori but not asWhy do you think that was the case? Could it have been because the
written in the English language.
See the link from above: >>>https://www.pundit.co.nz/content/our-understandings-of-te-tiriti-has-evolved-organically
only people who were bilingual wanted to represent the Treaty wording
as different to Maori versus English speakers?
Maori Chiefs - not all of whom would have been bilingual.
Yes - as I referred to above. Wasn't one of them a navigator who was >introduced to the Royal Courts?
Also interesting that Maori visited the UK long before the Treaty was >>>>signed.
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