["Followup-To:" header set to nz.general.]Indeed there is a close correlation between each of those factors and
On 2024-02-03, Tony <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
https://www.nzcpr.com/derailing-the-treaty-gravy-train/#more-39025
This is such a good article.
No doubt somebody will attack the author instead of addressing the content, but
we are used to that sort of bias.
I recommend open mindendess in reading this.
Another very good article. Things are going in the wrong direction and not >acting now will only lead to a stronger check in the future.
Interesting % figures as to the areas which are holding the Maori back.
These are the areas we need to put our effort into.
" Furthermore, research from the Ministry of Health which shows only
20 percent of a patient’s health outcome is determined by medical care,
with around 40 percent by socioeconomic factors such as education and
income, 10 percent by physical environment including the quality of
housing, and 30 percent by lifestyle choices such as diet, exercise,
and the use of drugs, alcohol, or cigarettes, provides perspective."
There is no silver bullet, but we do know the targets. All pretty obvious. Sadly the solutions will not be helped by belittling ethnicorganisations trying to help their communities and racist policies
The isue has been a time in the making, and it will not be cured over night.
https://www.nzcpr.com/derailing-the-treaty-gravy-train/#more-39025
This is such a good article.
No doubt somebody will attack the author instead of addressing the content, but
we are used to that sort of bias.
I recommend open mindendess in reading this.
https://www.nzcpr.com/derailing-the-treaty-gravy-train/#more-39025
This is such a good article.
No doubt somebody will attack the author instead of addressing the content, but
we are used to that sort of bias.
I recommend open mindendess in reading this.
On Sat, 3 Feb 2024 20:05:03 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
https://www.nzcpr.com/derailing-the-treaty-gravy-train/#more-39025
This is such a good article.
No doubt somebody will attack the author instead of addressing the content, >>but
we are used to that sort of bias.
I recommend open mindendess in reading this.
Still, she has legitimate views, and good on you for now beingThere are no far right parties in this country and I do not support any political party of any persuasion.
prepared to acknowledge your strong support for the parties of the far
right, Tony.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:No attack; I praised her integrity in keeping to her principles, which
On Sat, 3 Feb 2024 20:05:03 -0000 (UTC), TonyAs anticipated there is one person who cannot address the content. No surprise >there, he is at least consistently irrational.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
https://www.nzcpr.com/derailing-the-treaty-gravy-train/#more-39025
This is such a good article.
No doubt somebody will attack the author instead of addressing the content, >>>but
we are used to that sort of bias.
I recommend open mindendess in reading this.
Attack on the author removed. No attempt from Rich to address the content.
There are no far right parties in this country and I do not support any >political party of any persuasion.
Still, she has legitimate views, and good on you for now being
prepared to acknowledge your strong support for the parties of the far >>right, Tony.
It is suspicious that you would want me to, perhaps you are ashamed of your >blind obedience to a political ethos, what do you say?
On 3 Feb 2024 23:35:02 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:That is a lie.
["Followup-To:" header set to nz.general.]Indeed there is a close correlation between each of those factors and
On 2024-02-03, Tony <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
https://www.nzcpr.com/derailing-the-treaty-gravy-train/#more-39025
This is such a good article.
No doubt somebody will attack the author instead of addressing the content, >>>but
we are used to that sort of bias.
I recommend open mindendess in reading this.
Another very good article. Things are going in the wrong direction and not >>acting now will only lead to a stronger check in the future.
Interesting % figures as to the areas which are holding the Maori back. >>These are the areas we need to put our effort into.
" Furthermore, research from the Ministry of Health which shows only
20 percent of a patient’s health outcome is determined by medical care, >>with around 40 percent by socioeconomic factors such as education and >>income, 10 percent by physical environment including the quality of >>housing, and 30 percent by lifestyle choices such as diet, exercise,
and the use of drugs, alcohol, or cigarettes, provides perspective."
low incomes - to pretend that the Treaty has been a gravy train is
arrant nonsense.
Dr Reti has also recognised that Maori can have better results fromAbuse of another person removed.
Maori organisations providing services to people in areas such as the
far north where there are many relatively poor and relatively isolated
Maori communities
Lie removed.organisations trying to help their communities and racist policies
There is no silver bullet, but we do know the targets. All pretty obvious. >Sadly the solutions will not be helped by belittling ethnic
from government.
The isue has been a time in the making, and it will not be cured over night.
On Sun, 4 Feb 2024 02:14:14 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 3 Feb 2024 20:05:03 -0000 (UTC), TonyAs anticipated there is one person who cannot address the content. No >>surprise
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
https://www.nzcpr.com/derailing-the-treaty-gravy-train/#more-39025
This is such a good article.
No doubt somebody will attack the author instead of addressing the content, >>>>but
we are used to that sort of bias.
I recommend open mindendess in reading this.
there, he is at least consistently irrational.
Attack on the author removed. No attempt from Rich to address the content.
There are no far right parties in this country and I do not support any >>political party of any persuasion.
Still, she has legitimate views, and good on you for now being
prepared to acknowledge your strong support for the parties of the far >>>right, Tony.
It is suspicious that you would want me to, perhaps you are ashamed of your >>blind obedience to a political ethos, what do you say?
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 4 Feb 2024 02:14:14 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 3 Feb 2024 20:05:03 -0000 (UTC), TonyAs anticipated there is one person who cannot address the content. No >>>surprise
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
https://www.nzcpr.com/derailing-the-treaty-gravy-train/#more-39025 >>>>>This is such a good article.
No doubt somebody will attack the author instead of addressing the content,
but
we are used to that sort of bias.
I recommend open mindendess in reading this.
there, he is at least consistently irrational.
Attack on the author removed. No attempt from Rich to address the content.
There are no far right parties in this country and I do not support any >>>political party of any persuasion.
Still, she has legitimate views, and good on you for now being
prepared to acknowledge your strong support for the parties of the far >>>>right, Tony.
It is suspicious that you would want me to, perhaps you are ashamed of your >>>blind obedience to a political ethos, what do you say?
On Sun, 4 Feb 2024 03:56:47 -0000 (UTC), TonyNo, I have never deleted anything as off topic when the author tries to address the topic.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 4 Feb 2024 02:14:14 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 3 Feb 2024 20:05:03 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:As anticipated there is one person who cannot address the content. No >>>>surprise
https://www.nzcpr.com/derailing-the-treaty-gravy-train/#more-39025 >>>>>>This is such a good article.
No doubt somebody will attack the author instead of addressing the >>>>>>content,
but
we are used to that sort of bias.
I recommend open mindendess in reading this.
there, he is at least consistently irrational.
Attack on the author removed. No attempt from Rich to address the content. >>
There are no far right parties in this country and I do not support any >>>>political party of any persuasion.
Still, she has legitimate views, and good on you for now being >>>>>prepared to acknowledge your strong support for the parties of the far >>>>>right, Tony.
It is suspicious that you would want me to, perhaps you are ashamed of your >>>>blind obedience to a political ethos, what do you say?
Many New Zealanders will have been reminded today in the preparations
for Waitangi Day of the inequities to Maori through the many breaches
of the Treaty over the years, and ACT is the sole political party that >persists in some of the lies about those breaches, so I read again the >article by Muriel Newman that you referred to.
That article includes:
"For the record, in his explanation of the original Maori version of
the Treaty of Waitangi, Sir Apirana Ngata expressed the three articles
in this way:
The First Article: “The Chiefs assembled including Chiefs not present
at the assembly hereby cede absolutely to the Queen of England for
ever the government of all of their lands.”
The Second: “The Queen of England confirms and guarantees to the
Chiefs and Tribes and to all the people of New Zealand the full
possession of their lands, their homes and all their possessions…”
The Third Article: “In consideration thereof, Her Majesty the Queen of >England extends to the Natives of New Zealand Her Royal Protection,
and imparts to them all the rights and privileges of British
subjects.” "
So far so good - it is not a bad interpretation for the times of the
meaning in English of the Articles, which Sir Apirana Ngata clearly
knew that the determinative document was the Maori version signed by
most of the Maori leaders.
But then Newman goes on to say:
"In other words, under the Treaty of Waitangi, Maori ceded
sovereignty, property rights were protected, and all New Zealanders
were treated as equal citizens under the law. There was no superior, >dominant, ruling class of citizens – New Zealand was a colour-blind
society where individuals had equal dignity and equal rights."
Which is of course politically motivated clap-trap from Muriel Newman
- no Maori did not cede sovereignty. In addition, property rights were
not protected or respected, and Maori were not treated as equal
citizens under the law. Newman's assertions have never been true.
For some background, read >https://teara.govt.nz/en/principles-of-the-treaty-of-waitangi-nga-matapono-o-te-tiriti-o-waitangi/page-2
Also of interest may be: >https://newsroom.co.nz/2024/02/03/the-myth-of-the-cession-of-maori-sovereignty/
and >https://newsroom.co.nz/2024/02/04/why-we-are-debating-the-principles-of-the-treaty-of-waitangi/
and >https://thespinoff.co.nz/atea/03-02-2024/the-principles-of-the-treaty-of-waitangi-explained
There are many books and articles written about how Maori had land
stolen, were discriminated against - eg rights such as voting were
denied for quite a long time; and redress in more recent years after
the reality of the Treaty became more widely known have only provided
a small fraction of the value of land wrongly taken.
Sadly, New Zealand has never been a colour-blind society, with the
parties of the Right being the worst offenders, and Don Brash and now
David Seymour being seen as among the most extreme politicians in
terms of their racist attitudes to Maori that modern New Zealand has
had to put up with. "Think-tanks" like the Taxpayers Union, NZ
Initiative and Hobson's Pledge have become prominent in spreading
money and misleading propaganda. Luxon is probably only now realising
that in his naivety he has been as is being played as a Trump
substitute by the Right in New Zealand.
There is no excuse for not accepting the extent of the wrongs that
were and still are being done to Maori - these wrongs are being
accepted for partisan political motives as ACT and the now dominant
far-right elements of National want to stop settlements with Maori to
divert assets to wealthy donors. See the following article :
https://southerncross.news/national/why-the-atlas-network-will-win-the-anti-treaty-referendum/
and see for yourself the dishonesty and treasonous rhetoric of those
who will use wealthy international donors and all the
mis-representation and dirty tricks that have come to dominate the
Republican Party in the USA and sadly some of the Conservative Party
in the UK. We also know that the Atlas network funded opposition to
"The Voice" in Australia.
I do not believe that the Atlas Network will be able to get a
referendum through, and even if they did that New Zealanders would
accept it, but international money can be quite persuasive - we do
need to be concerned.
I used to admire Chris Finlayson who knew the facts about the Treaty
and genuinely tried to deliver settlements to Treaty Claims (albeit as
low in value as he could manage), but he is in danger of soiling his >reputation by not standing against those in the National-aligned
commercially funded lobby groups listed above, or elements in ACT and
now NZ First who are seeking to also capture the gullible senior
members of the National Party - whose weak leader is barely aware of
the danger to New Zealand.
I trust Tony (and others reading nz.general) that this gives at least
a few things worth thinking about . . .
Now if you have any facts to refute the material above, please do tell
us, but I suspect you will not even try - but are likely to delete it
all claiming that it is "off topic"" or other such silliness. You do
appear something of a "Hobson's Pledge" type of person from time to
time, but I hope that is not true.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Maori have a contract with the Crown that is both long standing and
On Sun, 4 Feb 2024 03:56:47 -0000 (UTC), TonyNo, I have never deleted anything as off topic when the author tries to address
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 4 Feb 2024 02:14:14 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 3 Feb 2024 20:05:03 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:As anticipated there is one person who cannot address the content. No >>>>>surprise
No doubt somebody will attack the author instead of addressing the >>>>>>>content,https://www.nzcpr.com/derailing-the-treaty-gravy-train/#more-39025 >>>>>>>This is such a good article.
but
we are used to that sort of bias.
I recommend open mindendess in reading this.
there, he is at least consistently irrational.
Attack on the author removed. No attempt from Rich to address the content. >>>
There are no far right parties in this country and I do not support any >>>>>political party of any persuasion.
Still, she has legitimate views, and good on you for now being >>>>>>prepared to acknowledge your strong support for the parties of the far >>>>>>right, Tony.
It is suspicious that you would want me to, perhaps you are ashamed of your
blind obedience to a political ethos, what do you say?
Many New Zealanders will have been reminded today in the preparations
for Waitangi Day of the inequities to Maori through the many breaches
of the Treaty over the years, and ACT is the sole political party that >>persists in some of the lies about those breaches, so I read again the >>article by Muriel Newman that you referred to.
That article includes:
"For the record, in his explanation of the original Maori version of
the Treaty of Waitangi, Sir Apirana Ngata expressed the three articles
in this way:
The First Article: “The Chiefs assembled including Chiefs not present
at the assembly hereby cede absolutely to the Queen of England for
ever the government of all of their lands.”
The Second: “The Queen of England confirms and guarantees to the
Chiefs and Tribes and to all the people of New Zealand the full
possession of their lands, their homes and all their possessions…”
The Third Article: “In consideration thereof, Her Majesty the Queen of >>England extends to the Natives of New Zealand Her Royal Protection,
and imparts to them all the rights and privileges of British
subjects.” "
So far so good - it is not a bad interpretation for the times of the >>meaning in English of the Articles, which Sir Apirana Ngata clearly
knew that the determinative document was the Maori version signed by
most of the Maori leaders.
But then Newman goes on to say:
"In other words, under the Treaty of Waitangi, Maori ceded
sovereignty, property rights were protected, and all New Zealanders
were treated as equal citizens under the law. There was no superior, >>dominant, ruling class of citizens – New Zealand was a colour-blind
society where individuals had equal dignity and equal rights."
Which is of course politically motivated clap-trap from Muriel Newman
- no Maori did not cede sovereignty. In addition, property rights were
not protected or respected, and Maori were not treated as equal
citizens under the law. Newman's assertions have never been true.
For some background, read >>https://teara.govt.nz/en/principles-of-the-treaty-of-waitangi-nga-matapono-o-te-tiriti-o-waitangi/page-2
Also of interest may be: >>https://newsroom.co.nz/2024/02/03/the-myth-of-the-cession-of-maori-sovereignty/
and >>https://newsroom.co.nz/2024/02/04/why-we-are-debating-the-principles-of-the-treaty-of-waitangi/
and >>https://thespinoff.co.nz/atea/03-02-2024/the-principles-of-the-treaty-of-waitangi-explained
There are many books and articles written about how Maori had land
stolen, were discriminated against - eg rights such as voting were
denied for quite a long time; and redress in more recent years after
the reality of the Treaty became more widely known have only provided
a small fraction of the value of land wrongly taken.
Sadly, New Zealand has never been a colour-blind society, with the
parties of the Right being the worst offenders, and Don Brash and now
David Seymour being seen as among the most extreme politicians in
terms of their racist attitudes to Maori that modern New Zealand has
had to put up with. "Think-tanks" like the Taxpayers Union, NZ
Initiative and Hobson's Pledge have become prominent in spreading
money and misleading propaganda. Luxon is probably only now realising
that in his naivety he has been as is being played as a Trump
substitute by the Right in New Zealand.
There is no excuse for not accepting the extent of the wrongs that
were and still are being done to Maori - these wrongs are being
accepted for partisan political motives as ACT and the now dominant >>far-right elements of National want to stop settlements with Maori to >>divert assets to wealthy donors. See the following article :
https://southerncross.news/national/why-the-atlas-network-will-win-the-anti-treaty-referendum/
and see for yourself the dishonesty and treasonous rhetoric of those
who will use wealthy international donors and all the
mis-representation and dirty tricks that have come to dominate the >>Republican Party in the USA and sadly some of the Conservative Party
in the UK. We also know that the Atlas network funded opposition to
"The Voice" in Australia.
I do not believe that the Atlas Network will be able to get a
referendum through, and even if they did that New Zealanders would
accept it, but international money can be quite persuasive - we do
need to be concerned.
I used to admire Chris Finlayson who knew the facts about the Treaty
and genuinely tried to deliver settlements to Treaty Claims (albeit as
low in value as he could manage), but he is in danger of soiling his >>reputation by not standing against those in the National-aligned >>commercially funded lobby groups listed above, or elements in ACT and
now NZ First who are seeking to also capture the gullible senior
members of the National Party - whose weak leader is barely aware of
the danger to New Zealand.
I trust Tony (and others reading nz.general) that this gives at least
a few things worth thinking about . . .
Now if you have any facts to refute the material above, please do tell
us, but I suspect you will not even try - but are likely to delete it
all claiming that it is "off topic"" or other such silliness. You do
appear something of a "Hobson's Pledge" type of person from time to
time, but I hope that is not true.
the topic.
You have finally done that, well done, another first. How many tries did you >make spouting only abuse and lies?
Three I think, but who is counting eh?
No what she wrote is not claptrap, it is accurate and what happened with the >publication of the "principles" was the start of separatism.
That is the truth and you will never be able to convince fair minded New >Zealanders is OK.
You do seem to be an idiot most of the time and unfortunately we know that is >true.
What a shame once more that you sink into the cesspit of politics when Newman >is not concerned with that, but with equal rights. opportunities and treatment >for all.
By the way - just assuming that you are correct in that Maori have been treated
unequally in the past (and I agree) that does not in any way justify separatism
- that is the flaw in this entire politically and greed driven episode.
On Sun, 4 Feb 2024 19:03:59 -0000 (UTC), TonyWhy do you lie, that is clear in the Treaty document - they did cede sovereignty. Period.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:under which both they and the Crown have obligations. One of those >differences from other New Zealanders like yourself is that they did
On Sun, 4 Feb 2024 03:56:47 -0000 (UTC), TonyNo, I have never deleted anything as off topic when the author tries to >>address
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 4 Feb 2024 02:14:14 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 3 Feb 2024 20:05:03 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:As anticipated there is one person who cannot address the content. No >>>>>>surprise
No doubt somebody will attack the author instead of addressing the >>>>>>>>content,https://www.nzcpr.com/derailing-the-treaty-gravy-train/#more-39025 >>>>>>>>This is such a good article.
but
we are used to that sort of bias.
I recommend open mindendess in reading this.
there, he is at least consistently irrational.
Attack on the author removed. No attempt from Rich to address the content.
There are no far right parties in this country and I do not support any >>>>>>political party of any persuasion.
Still, she has legitimate views, and good on you for now being >>>>>>>prepared to acknowledge your strong support for the parties of the far >>>>>>>right, Tony.
It is suspicious that you would want me to, perhaps you are ashamed of >>>>>>your
blind obedience to a political ethos, what do you say?
Many New Zealanders will have been reminded today in the preparations
for Waitangi Day of the inequities to Maori through the many breaches
of the Treaty over the years, and ACT is the sole political party that >>>persists in some of the lies about those breaches, so I read again the >>>article by Muriel Newman that you referred to.
That article includes:
"For the record, in his explanation of the original Maori version of
the Treaty of Waitangi, Sir Apirana Ngata expressed the three articles
in this way:
The First Article: “The Chiefs assembled including Chiefs not present
at the assembly hereby cede absolutely to the Queen of England for
ever the government of all of their lands.”
The Second: “The Queen of England confirms and guarantees to the
Chiefs and Tribes and to all the people of New Zealand the full >>>possession of their lands, their homes and all their possessions…”
The Third Article: “In consideration thereof, Her Majesty the Queen of >>>England extends to the Natives of New Zealand Her Royal Protection,
and imparts to them all the rights and privileges of British
subjects.” "
So far so good - it is not a bad interpretation for the times of the >>>meaning in English of the Articles, which Sir Apirana Ngata clearly
knew that the determinative document was the Maori version signed by
most of the Maori leaders.
But then Newman goes on to say:
"In other words, under the Treaty of Waitangi, Maori ceded
sovereignty, property rights were protected, and all New Zealanders
were treated as equal citizens under the law. There was no superior, >>>dominant, ruling class of citizens – New Zealand was a colour-blind >>>society where individuals had equal dignity and equal rights."
Which is of course politically motivated clap-trap from Muriel Newman
- no Maori did not cede sovereignty. In addition, property rights were >>>not protected or respected, and Maori were not treated as equal
citizens under the law. Newman's assertions have never been true.
For some background, read >>>https://teara.govt.nz/en/principles-of-the-treaty-of-waitangi-nga-matapono-o-te-tiriti-o-waitangi/page-2
Also of interest may be: >>>https://newsroom.co.nz/2024/02/03/the-myth-of-the-cession-of-maori-sovereignty/
and >>>https://newsroom.co.nz/2024/02/04/why-we-are-debating-the-principles-of-the-treaty-of-waitangi/
and >>>https://thespinoff.co.nz/atea/03-02-2024/the-principles-of-the-treaty-of-waitangi-explained
There are many books and articles written about how Maori had land >>>stolen, were discriminated against - eg rights such as voting were
denied for quite a long time; and redress in more recent years after
the reality of the Treaty became more widely known have only provided
a small fraction of the value of land wrongly taken.
Sadly, New Zealand has never been a colour-blind society, with the >>>parties of the Right being the worst offenders, and Don Brash and now >>>David Seymour being seen as among the most extreme politicians in
terms of their racist attitudes to Maori that modern New Zealand has
had to put up with. "Think-tanks" like the Taxpayers Union, NZ
Initiative and Hobson's Pledge have become prominent in spreading
money and misleading propaganda. Luxon is probably only now realising >>>that in his naivety he has been as is being played as a Trump
substitute by the Right in New Zealand.
There is no excuse for not accepting the extent of the wrongs that
were and still are being done to Maori - these wrongs are being
accepted for partisan political motives as ACT and the now dominant >>>far-right elements of National want to stop settlements with Maori to >>>divert assets to wealthy donors. See the following article :
https://southerncross.news/national/why-the-atlas-network-will-win-the-anti-treaty-referendum/
and see for yourself the dishonesty and treasonous rhetoric of those
who will use wealthy international donors and all the
mis-representation and dirty tricks that have come to dominate the >>>Republican Party in the USA and sadly some of the Conservative Party
in the UK. We also know that the Atlas network funded opposition to
"The Voice" in Australia.
I do not believe that the Atlas Network will be able to get a
referendum through, and even if they did that New Zealanders would
accept it, but international money can be quite persuasive - we do
need to be concerned.
I used to admire Chris Finlayson who knew the facts about the Treaty
and genuinely tried to deliver settlements to Treaty Claims (albeit as >>>low in value as he could manage), but he is in danger of soiling his >>>reputation by not standing against those in the National-aligned >>>commercially funded lobby groups listed above, or elements in ACT and
now NZ First who are seeking to also capture the gullible senior
members of the National Party - whose weak leader is barely aware of
the danger to New Zealand.
I trust Tony (and others reading nz.general) that this gives at least
a few things worth thinking about . . .
Now if you have any facts to refute the material above, please do tell >>>us, but I suspect you will not even try - but are likely to delete it
all claiming that it is "off topic"" or other such silliness. You do >>>appear something of a "Hobson's Pledge" type of person from time to
time, but I hope that is not true.
the topic.
You have finally done that, well done, another first. How many tries did you >>make spouting only abuse and lies?
Three I think, but who is counting eh?
No what she wrote is not claptrap, it is accurate and what happened with the >>publication of the "principles" was the start of separatism.
That is the truth and you will never be able to convince fair minded New >>Zealanders is OK.
You do seem to be an idiot most of the time and unfortunately we know that is >>true.
What a shame once more that you sink into the cesspit of politics when Newman >>is not concerned with that, but with equal rights. opportunities and >>treatment
for all.
By the way - just assuming that you are correct in that Maori have been >>treated
unequally in the past (and I agree) that does not in any way justify >>separatism
- that is the flaw in this entire politically and greed driven episode. >Maori have a contract with the Crown that is both long standing and
not cede sovereignty.
That is a reality that they do not need toOff topic nonsense.
justify. You may not like it but it is real. The Crown makes other
contracts that many do not regard as fair - for example under law some
owners of investment properties do not have to pay tax on realised
capital gains when the investment is sold - that is much more generous
than many investors in shares and fixed interest securities - and that
has an impact on our sharemarket and the availability of capital for
new companies. Investors in Kiwisaver for example may have investment
in a share portfolio which pays tax on realised capital gains. Sadly
no Kiwisaver provider however invests in property, but that is for
other reasons - property is harder to sell if clients seek to move
quickly to another Kiwisaver provider.
Good on you for seeking equity and fairness, but most governmentsThis government is no different.
prior to the recent National Government have regarded contracts with
the Crown seriously, and have accepted that they are under an
obligation to honour the terms of such contracts even if they would no
longer agree to a new contract under those terms.
So suck it up, Tony - and remember "Sanctity of Contract"!No such thing, so suck that up.
But looking on the bright side, different treatment under a contractBullshit - the last government went for total separatism and you know it. The remnants of that undemocratic and greedy policy are currently a minority trying to divert the government from the mandate that fair minded New Zealander's gave it. That is honesty, that is democracy. If you don't like leave this country and increase our average IQ in the process.
does not amount to total "separatism" - Maori are subject to
compliance with most laws in exactly the same way as all other New
Zealanders - some may well regard the ""separatism"" of tax on
investment properties as being a more serious issue for the well being
of our country.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Sadly, that does appear to be the case with the current government.
On Sun, 4 Feb 2024 19:03:59 -0000 (UTC), TonyWhy do you lie, that is clear in the Treaty document - they did cede >sovereignty. Period.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:under which both they and the Crown have obligations. One of those >>differences from other New Zealanders like yourself is that they did
On Sun, 4 Feb 2024 03:56:47 -0000 (UTC), TonyNo, I have never deleted anything as off topic when the author tries to >>>address
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 4 Feb 2024 02:14:14 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 3 Feb 2024 20:05:03 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:As anticipated there is one person who cannot address the content. No >>>>>>>surprise
No doubt somebody will attack the author instead of addressing the >>>>>>>>>content,https://www.nzcpr.com/derailing-the-treaty-gravy-train/#more-39025 >>>>>>>>>This is such a good article.
but
we are used to that sort of bias.
I recommend open mindendess in reading this.
there, he is at least consistently irrational.
Attack on the author removed. No attempt from Rich to address the content.
There are no far right parties in this country and I do not support any >>>>>>>political party of any persuasion.
Still, she has legitimate views, and good on you for now being >>>>>>>>prepared to acknowledge your strong support for the parties of the far >>>>>>>>right, Tony.
It is suspicious that you would want me to, perhaps you are ashamed of >>>>>>>your
blind obedience to a political ethos, what do you say?
Many New Zealanders will have been reminded today in the preparations >>>>for Waitangi Day of the inequities to Maori through the many breaches >>>>of the Treaty over the years, and ACT is the sole political party that >>>>persists in some of the lies about those breaches, so I read again the >>>>article by Muriel Newman that you referred to.
That article includes:
"For the record, in his explanation of the original Maori version of >>>>the Treaty of Waitangi, Sir Apirana Ngata expressed the three articles >>>>in this way:
The First Article: “The Chiefs assembled including Chiefs not present >>>>at the assembly hereby cede absolutely to the Queen of England for
ever the government of all of their lands.”
The Second: “The Queen of England confirms and guarantees to the
Chiefs and Tribes and to all the people of New Zealand the full >>>>possession of their lands, their homes and all their possessions…”
The Third Article: “In consideration thereof, Her Majesty the Queen of >>>>England extends to the Natives of New Zealand Her Royal Protection,
and imparts to them all the rights and privileges of British
subjects.” "
So far so good - it is not a bad interpretation for the times of the >>>>meaning in English of the Articles, which Sir Apirana Ngata clearly >>>>knew that the determinative document was the Maori version signed by >>>>most of the Maori leaders.
But then Newman goes on to say:
"In other words, under the Treaty of Waitangi, Maori ceded
sovereignty, property rights were protected, and all New Zealanders >>>>were treated as equal citizens under the law. There was no superior, >>>>dominant, ruling class of citizens – New Zealand was a colour-blind >>>>society where individuals had equal dignity and equal rights."
Which is of course politically motivated clap-trap from Muriel Newman
- no Maori did not cede sovereignty. In addition, property rights were >>>>not protected or respected, and Maori were not treated as equal >>>>citizens under the law. Newman's assertions have never been true.
For some background, read >>>>https://teara.govt.nz/en/principles-of-the-treaty-of-waitangi-nga-matapono-o-te-tiriti-o-waitangi/page-2
Also of interest may be: >>>>https://newsroom.co.nz/2024/02/03/the-myth-of-the-cession-of-maori-sovereignty/
and >>>>https://newsroom.co.nz/2024/02/04/why-we-are-debating-the-principles-of-the-treaty-of-waitangi/
and >>>>https://thespinoff.co.nz/atea/03-02-2024/the-principles-of-the-treaty-of-waitangi-explained
There are many books and articles written about how Maori had land >>>>stolen, were discriminated against - eg rights such as voting were >>>>denied for quite a long time; and redress in more recent years after >>>>the reality of the Treaty became more widely known have only provided
a small fraction of the value of land wrongly taken.
Sadly, New Zealand has never been a colour-blind society, with the >>>>parties of the Right being the worst offenders, and Don Brash and now >>>>David Seymour being seen as among the most extreme politicians in
terms of their racist attitudes to Maori that modern New Zealand has >>>>had to put up with. "Think-tanks" like the Taxpayers Union, NZ >>>>Initiative and Hobson's Pledge have become prominent in spreading
money and misleading propaganda. Luxon is probably only now realising >>>>that in his naivety he has been as is being played as a Trump >>>>substitute by the Right in New Zealand.
There is no excuse for not accepting the extent of the wrongs that
were and still are being done to Maori - these wrongs are being >>>>accepted for partisan political motives as ACT and the now dominant >>>>far-right elements of National want to stop settlements with Maori to >>>>divert assets to wealthy donors. See the following article :
https://southerncross.news/national/why-the-atlas-network-will-win-the-anti-treaty-referendum/
and see for yourself the dishonesty and treasonous rhetoric of those >>>>who will use wealthy international donors and all the >>>>mis-representation and dirty tricks that have come to dominate the >>>>Republican Party in the USA and sadly some of the Conservative Party
in the UK. We also know that the Atlas network funded opposition to >>>>"The Voice" in Australia.
I do not believe that the Atlas Network will be able to get a >>>>referendum through, and even if they did that New Zealanders would >>>>accept it, but international money can be quite persuasive - we do
need to be concerned.
I used to admire Chris Finlayson who knew the facts about the Treaty >>>>and genuinely tried to deliver settlements to Treaty Claims (albeit as >>>>low in value as he could manage), but he is in danger of soiling his >>>>reputation by not standing against those in the National-aligned >>>>commercially funded lobby groups listed above, or elements in ACT and >>>>now NZ First who are seeking to also capture the gullible senior >>>>members of the National Party - whose weak leader is barely aware of >>>>the danger to New Zealand.
I trust Tony (and others reading nz.general) that this gives at least
a few things worth thinking about . . .
Now if you have any facts to refute the material above, please do tell >>>>us, but I suspect you will not even try - but are likely to delete it >>>>all claiming that it is "off topic"" or other such silliness. You do >>>>appear something of a "Hobson's Pledge" type of person from time to >>>>time, but I hope that is not true.
the topic.
You have finally done that, well done, another first. How many tries did you >>>make spouting only abuse and lies?
Three I think, but who is counting eh?
No what she wrote is not claptrap, it is accurate and what happened with the >>>publication of the "principles" was the start of separatism.
That is the truth and you will never be able to convince fair minded New >>>Zealanders is OK.
You do seem to be an idiot most of the time and unfortunately we know that is
true.
What a shame once more that you sink into the cesspit of politics when Newman
is not concerned with that, but with equal rights. opportunities and >>>treatment
for all.
By the way - just assuming that you are correct in that Maori have been >>>treated
unequally in the past (and I agree) that does not in any way justify >>>separatism
- that is the flaw in this entire politically and greed driven episode. >>Maori have a contract with the Crown that is both long standing and
not cede sovereignty.
That is a reality that they do not need toOff topic nonsense.
justify. You may not like it but it is real. The Crown makes other >>contracts that many do not regard as fair - for example under law some >>owners of investment properties do not have to pay tax on realised
capital gains when the investment is sold - that is much more generous
than many investors in shares and fixed interest securities - and that
has an impact on our sharemarket and the availability of capital for
new companies. Investors in Kiwisaver for example may have investment
in a share portfolio which pays tax on realised capital gains. Sadly
no Kiwisaver provider however invests in property, but that is for
other reasons - property is harder to sell if clients seek to move
quickly to another Kiwisaver provider.
This government is no different.
Good on you for seeking equity and fairness, but most governments
prior to the recent National Government have regarded contracts with
the Crown seriously, and have accepted that they are under an
obligation to honour the terms of such contracts even if they would no >>longer agree to a new contract under those terms.
No such thing, so suck that up.
So suck it up, Tony - and remember "Sanctity of Contract"!
Bullshit - the last government went for total separatism and you know it. The >remnants of that undemocratic and greedy policy are currently a minority trying
But looking on the bright side, different treatment under a contract
does not amount to total "separatism" - Maori are subject to
compliance with most laws in exactly the same way as all other New >>Zealanders - some may well regard the ""separatism"" of tax on
investment properties as being a more serious issue for the well being
of our country.
to divert the government from the mandate that fair minded New Zealander's gave
it. That is honesty, that is democracy. If you don't like leave this country >and increase our average IQ in the process.
On Sun, 4 Feb 2024 20:51:16 -0000 (UTC), TonyThey have yet shown no stupidity, except in the eyes of those who hate equality regardless of race - like you.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Sadly, that does appear to be the case with the current government.
On Sun, 4 Feb 2024 19:03:59 -0000 (UTC), TonyWhy do you lie, that is clear in the Treaty document - they did cede >>sovereignty. Period.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:under which both they and the Crown have obligations. One of those >>>differences from other New Zealanders like yourself is that they did
On Sun, 4 Feb 2024 03:56:47 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:No, I have never deleted anything as off topic when the author tries to >>>>address
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 4 Feb 2024 02:14:14 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 3 Feb 2024 20:05:03 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:As anticipated there is one person who cannot address the content. No >>>>>>>>surprise
No doubt somebody will attack the author instead of addressing the >>>>>>>>>>content,https://www.nzcpr.com/derailing-the-treaty-gravy-train/#more-39025 >>>>>>>>>>This is such a good article.
but
we are used to that sort of bias.
I recommend open mindendess in reading this.
there, he is at least consistently irrational.
Attack on the author removed. No attempt from Rich to address the >>>>>>>>content.
There are no far right parties in this country and I do not support any >>>>>>>>political party of any persuasion.
Still, she has legitimate views, and good on you for now being >>>>>>>>>prepared to acknowledge your strong support for the parties of the far >>>>>>>>>right, Tony.
It is suspicious that you would want me to, perhaps you are ashamed of >>>>>>>>your
blind obedience to a political ethos, what do you say?
Many New Zealanders will have been reminded today in the preparations >>>>>for Waitangi Day of the inequities to Maori through the many breaches >>>>>of the Treaty over the years, and ACT is the sole political party that >>>>>persists in some of the lies about those breaches, so I read again the >>>>>article by Muriel Newman that you referred to.
That article includes:
"For the record, in his explanation of the original Maori version of >>>>>the Treaty of Waitangi, Sir Apirana Ngata expressed the three articles >>>>>in this way:
The First Article: “The Chiefs assembled including Chiefs not present >>>>>at the assembly hereby cede absolutely to the Queen of England for >>>>>ever the government of all of their lands.”
The Second: “The Queen of England confirms and guarantees to the >>>>>Chiefs and Tribes and to all the people of New Zealand the full >>>>>possession of their lands, their homes and all their possessions…”
The Third Article: “In consideration thereof, Her Majesty the Queen of >>>>>England extends to the Natives of New Zealand Her Royal Protection, >>>>>and imparts to them all the rights and privileges of British >>>>>subjects.” "
So far so good - it is not a bad interpretation for the times of the >>>>>meaning in English of the Articles, which Sir Apirana Ngata clearly >>>>>knew that the determinative document was the Maori version signed by >>>>>most of the Maori leaders.
But then Newman goes on to say:
"In other words, under the Treaty of Waitangi, Maori ceded >>>>>sovereignty, property rights were protected, and all New Zealanders >>>>>were treated as equal citizens under the law. There was no superior, >>>>>dominant, ruling class of citizens – New Zealand was a colour-blind >>>>>society where individuals had equal dignity and equal rights."
Which is of course politically motivated clap-trap from Muriel Newman >>>>>- no Maori did not cede sovereignty. In addition, property rights were >>>>>not protected or respected, and Maori were not treated as equal >>>>>citizens under the law. Newman's assertions have never been true.
For some background, read >>>>>https://teara.govt.nz/en/principles-of-the-treaty-of-waitangi-nga-matapono-o-te-tiriti-o-waitangi/page-2
Also of interest may be: >>>>>https://newsroom.co.nz/2024/02/03/the-myth-of-the-cession-of-maori-sovereignty/
and >>>>>https://newsroom.co.nz/2024/02/04/why-we-are-debating-the-principles-of-the-treaty-of-waitangi/
and >>>>>https://thespinoff.co.nz/atea/03-02-2024/the-principles-of-the-treaty-of-waitangi-explained
There are many books and articles written about how Maori had land >>>>>stolen, were discriminated against - eg rights such as voting were >>>>>denied for quite a long time; and redress in more recent years after >>>>>the reality of the Treaty became more widely known have only provided >>>>>a small fraction of the value of land wrongly taken.
Sadly, New Zealand has never been a colour-blind society, with the >>>>>parties of the Right being the worst offenders, and Don Brash and now >>>>>David Seymour being seen as among the most extreme politicians in >>>>>terms of their racist attitudes to Maori that modern New Zealand has >>>>>had to put up with. "Think-tanks" like the Taxpayers Union, NZ >>>>>Initiative and Hobson's Pledge have become prominent in spreading >>>>>money and misleading propaganda. Luxon is probably only now realising >>>>>that in his naivety he has been as is being played as a Trump >>>>>substitute by the Right in New Zealand.
There is no excuse for not accepting the extent of the wrongs that >>>>>were and still are being done to Maori - these wrongs are being >>>>>accepted for partisan political motives as ACT and the now dominant >>>>>far-right elements of National want to stop settlements with Maori to >>>>>divert assets to wealthy donors. See the following article :
https://southerncross.news/national/why-the-atlas-network-will-win-the-anti-treaty-referendum/
and see for yourself the dishonesty and treasonous rhetoric of those >>>>>who will use wealthy international donors and all the >>>>>mis-representation and dirty tricks that have come to dominate the >>>>>Republican Party in the USA and sadly some of the Conservative Party >>>>>in the UK. We also know that the Atlas network funded opposition to >>>>>"The Voice" in Australia.
I do not believe that the Atlas Network will be able to get a >>>>>referendum through, and even if they did that New Zealanders would >>>>>accept it, but international money can be quite persuasive - we do >>>>>need to be concerned.
I used to admire Chris Finlayson who knew the facts about the Treaty >>>>>and genuinely tried to deliver settlements to Treaty Claims (albeit as >>>>>low in value as he could manage), but he is in danger of soiling his >>>>>reputation by not standing against those in the National-aligned >>>>>commercially funded lobby groups listed above, or elements in ACT and >>>>>now NZ First who are seeking to also capture the gullible senior >>>>>members of the National Party - whose weak leader is barely aware of >>>>>the danger to New Zealand.
I trust Tony (and others reading nz.general) that this gives at least >>>>>a few things worth thinking about . . .
Now if you have any facts to refute the material above, please do tell >>>>>us, but I suspect you will not even try - but are likely to delete it >>>>>all claiming that it is "off topic"" or other such silliness. You do >>>>>appear something of a "Hobson's Pledge" type of person from time to >>>>>time, but I hope that is not true.
the topic.
You have finally done that, well done, another first. How many tries did >>>>you
make spouting only abuse and lies?
Three I think, but who is counting eh?
No what she wrote is not claptrap, it is accurate and what happened with >>>>the
publication of the "principles" was the start of separatism.
That is the truth and you will never be able to convince fair minded New >>>>Zealanders is OK.
You do seem to be an idiot most of the time and unfortunately we know that >>>>is
true.
What a shame once more that you sink into the cesspit of politics when >>>>Newman
is not concerned with that, but with equal rights. opportunities and >>>>treatment
for all.
By the way - just assuming that you are correct in that Maori have been >>>>treated
unequally in the past (and I agree) that does not in any way justify >>>>separatism
- that is the flaw in this entire politically and greed driven episode. >>>Maori have a contract with the Crown that is both long standing and
not cede sovereignty.
That is a reality that they do not need toOff topic nonsense.
justify. You may not like it but it is real. The Crown makes other >>>contracts that many do not regard as fair - for example under law some >>>owners of investment properties do not have to pay tax on realised >>>capital gains when the investment is sold - that is much more generous >>>than many investors in shares and fixed interest securities - and that >>>has an impact on our sharemarket and the availability of capital for
new companies. Investors in Kiwisaver for example may have investment
in a share portfolio which pays tax on realised capital gains. Sadly
no Kiwisaver provider however invests in property, but that is for
other reasons - property is harder to sell if clients seek to move >>>quickly to another Kiwisaver provider.
This government is no different.
Good on you for seeking equity and fairness, but most governments
prior to the recent National Government have regarded contracts with
the Crown seriously, and have accepted that they are under an
obligation to honour the terms of such contracts even if they would no >>>longer agree to a new contract under those terms.
No such thing, so suck that up.
So suck it up, Tony - and remember "Sanctity of Contract"!
They look to get a lot of court cases however if they persist in
stupidities.
Not interested. That is an extreme left wing blog - full of sycophants like you.Bullshit - the last government went for total separatism and you know it. The >>remnants of that undemocratic and greedy policy are currently a minority >>trying
But looking on the bright side, different treatment under a contract
does not amount to total "separatism" - Maori are subject to
compliance with most laws in exactly the same way as all other New >>>Zealanders - some may well regard the ""separatism"" of tax on >>>investment properties as being a more serious issue for the well being
of our country.
to divert the government from the mandate that fair minded New Zealander's >>gave
it. That is honesty, that is democracy. If you don't like leave this country >>and increase our average IQ in the process.
Try this, Tony: >https://thespinoff.co.nz/books/30-01-2024/a-te-tiriti-reading-and-watching-and-listening-guide
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