https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/01/21/john-campbell-i-saw-peace-joy-and-10000-people-uniting-to-say-no/
https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/01/20/be-maori-kiingi-tuuheitia-gives-closing-speech-at-national-hui/

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote: >https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/01/21/john-campbell-i-saw-peace-joy-and-10000-people-uniting-to-say-no/

https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/01/20/be-maori-kiingi-tuuheitia-gives-closing-speech-at-national-hui/

There has been no provocation, only a suggestion that we all, as a country, debate an important issue. The inevitable response is a refusal to talk.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Sun, 21 Jan 2024 09:03:52 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>
wrote:

https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/01/21/john-campbell-i-saw-peace-joy-and-10000-people-uniting-to-say-no/
https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/01/20/be-maori-kiingi-tuuheitia-gives-closing-speech-at-national-hui/

All good stuff for Maori but based on a failure to understand what the government proposes to do. The Treaty Principles Bill has yet to be
published - traditionally this occurs with the first reading in
Parliament. The Bill itself is supposed to formalise the relationship
between the Crown and Maori in the modern world based on principles of
intent in the TOW. National have not committed to taking the bill
further than Select Committee stage - where anyone an submit on the
Bill's content.

Should the Bill progress to become an Act (given Nationals commitment
this will not be during the current Parliamentary term) there will be
a binding referendum taken on those defined principles.

The meeting of Maori this weekend simply wants to suppress all such
discussions on a Bill that has not even been published yet. Why is
there so much opposition to this debate?

The answer may well lie with Maori cultural traditions. Democracy is
no-where to be seen. Those attending the meeting are not all elected representatives because Maori culture does not include secret
balloting of elected leaders. Imposition of the will of leaders is traditional, and this is exactly what is happening from this meeting.


--
Crash McBash

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 21:08:30 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:

Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote: >>https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/01/21/john-campbell-i-saw-peace-joy-and-10000-people-uniting-to-say-no/

https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/01/20/be-maori-kiingi-tuuheitia-gives-closing-speech-at-national-hui/

There has been no provocation, only a suggestion that we all, as a country, >debate an important issue. The inevitable response is a refusal to talk.

Indeed - the speeches at the national hui made it clear that Maori are
ready to have discussions - it is sad that our Prime Minister was not
prepared to engage. A government that refuses to talk is a clear
indication that they are not certain of their grounds. I cannot think
of any previous prime minister that would have run away as Luxon has
done . . .

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 21:08:30 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:

Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote: >>>https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/01/21/john-campbell-i-saw-peace-joy-and-10000-people-uniting-to-say-no/

https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/01/20/be-maori-kiingi-tuuheitia-gives-closing-speech-at-national-hui/

There has been no provocation, only a suggestion that we all, as a country, >>debate an important issue. The inevitable response is a refusal to talk.

Indeed - the speeches at the national hui made it clear that Maori are
ready to have discussions - it is sad that our Prime Minister was not >prepared to engage. A government that refuses to talk is a clear
indication that they are not certain of their grounds. I cannot think
of any previous prime minister that would have run away as Luxon has
done . . .

Ardern refused to talk to protesters and more than once - cowardly and desperate - helped to drive the last few well deserved nails in.
You are lying - the protests by Maori are all about refusing to engage. The PM has done exactly what was needed and has offered open discussion which has been refused. Stop lying.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sun, 21 Jan 2024 10:32:48 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>
wrote:

On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 21:08:30 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:

Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote: >>>https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/01/21/john-campbell-i-saw-peace-joy-and-10000-people-uniting-to-say-no/

https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/01/20/be-maori-kiingi-tuuheitia-gives-closing-speech-at-national-hui/

There has been no provocation, only a suggestion that we all, as a country, >>debate an important issue. The inevitable response is a refusal to talk.

Indeed - the speeches at the national hui made it clear that Maori are
ready to have discussions - it is sad that our Prime Minister was not >prepared to engage. A government that refuses to talk is a clear
indication that they are not certain of their grounds. I cannot think
of any previous prime minister that would have run away as Luxon has
done . . .

The government has a senior cabinet minister attending the meeting so
your claim that the government refuses to talk is a lie. PM Ardern
did refuse to talk to the protesters at Parliament - and you supported
that so you have no credibility on this.


--
Crash McBash

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2024-01-20, Tony <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:

Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 21:08:30 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:

Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote: >>>>https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/01/21/john-campbell-i-saw-peace-joy-and-10000-people-uniting-to-say-no/

https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/01/20/be-maori-kiingi-tuuheitia-gives-closing-speech-at-national-hui/

There has been no provocation, only a suggestion that we all, as a country, >>>debate an important issue. The inevitable response is a refusal to talk.

Indeed - the speeches at the national hui made it clear that Maori are >>ready to have discussions - it is sad that our Prime Minister was not >>prepared to engage. A government that refuses to talk is a clear >>indication that they are not certain of their grounds. I cannot think
of any previous prime minister that would have run away as Luxon has
done . . .

Ardern refused to talk to protesters and more than once - cowardly and desperate - helped to drive the last few well deserved nails in.
You are lying - the protests by Maori are all about refusing to engage. The PM
has done exactly what was needed and has offered open discussion which has been
refused. Stop lying.

From reading the report of the speech I understand that all Maori are discuss that matter and the Government has it all wrong, the meaning of the Treaty. What they are suggesting is the Maori version to be translated into English. This implies that the Maori version was written first.

In cases such as this, a negotation, one needs to ensure that bargining is
done in good faith.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sun, 21 Jan 2024 12:04:13 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:

On Sun, 21 Jan 2024 10:32:48 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>
wrote:

On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 21:08:30 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:

Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote: >>>>https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/01/21/john-campbell-i-saw-peace-joy-and-10000-people-uniting-to-say-no/

https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/01/20/be-maori-kiingi-tuuheitia-gives-closing-speech-at-national-hui/

There has been no provocation, only a suggestion that we all, as a country, >>>debate an important issue. The inevitable response is a refusal to talk.

Indeed - the speeches at the national hui made it clear that Maori are >>ready to have discussions - it is sad that our Prime Minister was not >>prepared to engage. A government that refuses to talk is a clear >>indication that they are not certain of their grounds. I cannot think
of any previous prime minister that would have run away as Luxon has
done . . .

The government has a senior cabinet minister attending the meeting so
your claim that the government refuses to talk is a lie. PM Ardern
did refuse to talk to the protesters at Parliament - and you supported
that so you have no credibility on this.

The national hui was not a protest, but an opportunity to discuss
issues of concern to Maori. It is disappointing that Luxon did not
attend - none of those attending had threatened to kill the prime
minister, so the situation was radically different from the very mixed
groups of "protestors" at parliament. Clearly Luxon was not able to
influence Seymour to make the wording of the draft legislation even a
little less unacceptable, but he has emphasised that National will not
allow it to go forward, but other actions are also of concern to
Maori, including the situation with Maori Health, where arrangements
that had been developed in cooperation with Maori are being canned
with no clear replacement - and that is now going to the Waitangi
Tribunal.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 20 Jan 2024 22:58:02 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:

On 2024-01-20, Tony <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:

Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 21:08:30 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:

Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote: >>>>>https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/01/21/john-campbell-i-saw-peace-joy-and-10000-people-uniting-to-say-no/

https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/01/20/be-maori-kiingi-tuuheitia-gives-closing-speech-at-national-hui/

There has been no provocation, only a suggestion that we all, as a country, >>>>debate an important issue. The inevitable response is a refusal to talk. >>>

Indeed - the speeches at the national hui made it clear that Maori are >>>ready to have discussions - it is sad that our Prime Minister was not >>>prepared to engage. A government that refuses to talk is a clear >>>indication that they are not certain of their grounds. I cannot think
of any previous prime minister that would have run away as Luxon has
done . . .

Ardern refused to talk to protesters and more than once - cowardly and
desperate - helped to drive the last few well deserved nails in.
You are lying - the protests by Maori are all about refusing to engage. The PM
has done exactly what was needed and has offered open discussion which has been
refused. Stop lying.

From reading the report of the speech I understand that all Maori are discuss >that matter and the Government has it all wrong, the meaning of the Treaty. >What they are suggesting is the Maori version to be translated into English. >This implies that the Maori version was written first.

In cases such as this, a negotation, one needs to ensure that bargining is >done in good faith.

Exactly Gordon, good faith is indeed the issue, and yes the public
service paper for the new government makes it clear that Seymour and
ACT (and from that many NAct1st supporters including some who post to nz.general) have interpreted it wrongly. There were various versions,
but the one signed by most Maori was indeed in the Maori language, and
that has been deemed by the Waitangi Tribunal to be the appropriate
version to be used. There have been various translations, but there
are difficulties in determining the equivalent words in English for
some Maori concepts - a problem with all translations from one
language to another but quite critical in this instance. A translation
could however be useful, but it would need to be accompanied by
additional text to explain some key concepts that were originally
agreed.

A less important issue is that some Maori words have changed over the
time since the Treaty was signed. Both National and Labour have in the
past done quite well in having Ministers that understood the Treaty
(although Labour less well with Foreshore and Seabed issues!), and the
Maori Health initiatives were developed in just the sort of good faith bargaining that both sides expected. It was this issue of which
version is valid that caused the recent fuss over Te Papa having on
prominent display a version in English that was quite different from
the Maori version accepted by the Tribunal and Courts.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sun, 21 Jan 2024 21:42:34 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>
wrote:

On Sun, 21 Jan 2024 12:04:13 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:

On Sun, 21 Jan 2024 10:32:48 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>wrote:

On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 21:08:30 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:

Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote: >>>>>https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/01/21/john-campbell-i-saw-peace-joy-and-10000-people-uniting-to-say-no/

https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/01/20/be-maori-kiingi-tuuheitia-gives-closing-speech-at-national-hui/

There has been no provocation, only a suggestion that we all, as a country, >>>>debate an important issue. The inevitable response is a refusal to talk. >>>

Indeed - the speeches at the national hui made it clear that Maori are >>>ready to have discussions - it is sad that our Prime Minister was not >>>prepared to engage. A government that refuses to talk is a clear >>>indication that they are not certain of their grounds. I cannot think
of any previous prime minister that would have run away as Luxon has
done . . .

The government has a senior cabinet minister attending the meeting so
your claim that the government refuses to talk is a lie. PM Ardern
did refuse to talk to the protesters at Parliament - and you supported
that so you have no credibility on this.

The national hui was not a protest, but an opportunity to discuss
issues of concern to Maori. It is disappointing that Luxon did not
attend - none of those attending had threatened to kill the prime
minister, so the situation was radically different from the very mixed
groups of "protestors" at parliament.

Your weak defence of Ardern is noted. There were a lot of Maori
present at that meeting who have threatened violence against the PM in
the past. You cannot get past the fact that a senior members of the
Government were there, but you seem fixated on the notion that Luxon
should have been there for no rational reason.

Clearly Luxon was not able to
influence Seymour to make the wording of the draft legislation even a
little less unacceptable, but he has emphasised that National will not
allow it to go forward, but other actions are also of concern to
Maori, including the situation with Maori Health, where arrangements
that had been developed in cooperation with Maori are being canned
with no clear replacement - and that is now going to the Waitangi
Tribunal.

The Maori Health Authority was fundamentally racist. This seems to be considered OK by some Maori when it favours them but not when it does
not. The MHA funding will go to health providers best positioned to
target healthcare at those disadvantaged by the current general health
system. This has been going on for years - with the abolition of the
MHA the status quo has been restored. Ngati Hine Healthcare is one
example of this type of healthcare provider and it should be noted it
treats all comers regardless of race. There is another provider whose
name escapes me in Mangere with a Pacifica focus.


--
Crash McBash

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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