https://www.thepost.co.nz/a/politics/350118859/whose-treaty-it-anyway-national-led-government-takes-two-stage-approach-changing

This is a good article. I do not agree with all of it, as is often the case
but it does set out the issues.

The starting point for discussion could be, Do these rules/principles look reasonable and fair?

Quote

The bill would rewrite the Government’s 1989 Treaty principles which set
out the fundamentals of the Crown-Māori relationship:

The Government has the right to govern and make laws.
Iwi have the right to organise as iwi to control resources.
All New Zealanders are equal before the law.
Government and iwi are obliged to co-operate on major issues of common concern.
The Government is responsible for providing an effective resolution
process for Treaty grievances.

These principles would be replaced with three principles:

The New Zealand Government has the right to govern New Zealand.
The New Zealand Government will protect all New Zealanders’ authority over their land and other property.
All New Zealanders are equal under the law, with the same
rights and duties.

Unquote.

I have concerns that The Treaty does not have principles, it has actions
which each side agrees to.

The article also says

"As there is no single view of how the Treaty of Waitangi and the differing Māori text Te Tiriti o Waitangi should be applied to decision-making in
New Zealand, the “Treaty principles” have developed over decades to smooth out differences in interpretation."

However this has not suceeded in smoothing things out. So we really need to sort this out people.

In my view there needs to be an agreement there is two parts, and as much as possible have the history and the future, what the Treaty means for the
country as a whole.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >https://www.thepost.co.nz/a/politics/350118859/whose-treaty-it-anyway-national-led-government-takes-two-stage-approach-changing

This is a good article. I do not agree with all of it, as is often the case >but it does set out the issues.

The starting point for discussion could be, Do these rules/principles look >reasonable and fair?

Quote

The bill would rewrite the Government’s 1989 Treaty principles which set >out the fundamentals of the Crown-Māori relationship:

The Government has the right to govern and make laws.
Iwi have the right to organise as iwi to control resources.
All New Zealanders are equal before the law.
Government and iwi are obliged to co-operate on major issues of common
concern.
The Government is responsible for providing an effective resolution
process for Treaty grievances.

These principles would be replaced with three principles:

The New Zealand Government has the right to govern New Zealand.
The New Zealand Government will protect all New Zealanders’ authority
over their land and other property.
All New Zealanders are equal under the law, with the same
rights and duties.

Unquote.

I have concerns that The Treaty does not have principles, it has actions >which each side agrees to.

The article also says

"As there is no single view of how the Treaty of Waitangi and the differing >Māori text Te Tiriti o Waitangi should be applied to decision-making in
New Zealand, the “Treaty principles” have developed over decades to smooth >out differences in interpretation."

However this has not suceeded in smoothing things out. So we really need to >sort this out people.

In my view there needs to be an agreement there is two parts, and as much as >possible have the history and the future, what the Treaty means for the >country as a whole.

Good on you Gordon, however I differ.
The only Treaty stands alone, the priciples should be abandoned and we should embrace the multi national, multi racial, multi beliefs of this country.
I live in a small community that has many races, and we get on famously. Why? Because we are all of one mind - one country, one people and one society - if only the rest of the country was so.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sun, 26 Nov 2023 20:04:21 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:

Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>https://www.thepost.co.nz/a/politics/350118859/whose-treaty-it-anyway-national-led-government-takes-two-stage-approach-changing

This is a good article. I do not agree with all of it, as is often the case >>but it does set out the issues.

The starting point for discussion could be, Do these rules/principles look >>reasonable and fair?

Quote

The bill would rewrite the Government’s 1989 Treaty principles which set >>out the fundamentals of the Crown-M�?ori relationship:

The Government has the right to govern and make laws.
Iwi have the right to organise as iwi to control resources.
All New Zealanders are equal before the law.
Government and iwi are obliged to co-operate on major issues of common >>concern.
The Government is responsible for providing an effective resolution >>process for Treaty grievances.

These principles would be replaced with three principles:

The New Zealand Government has the right to govern New Zealand.
The New Zealand Government will protect all New Zealanders’ authority >>over their land and other property.
All New Zealanders are equal under the law, with the same
rights and duties.

Unquote.

I have concerns that The Treaty does not have principles, it has actions >>which each side agrees to.

The article also says

"As there is no single view of how the Treaty of Waitangi and the differing >>M�?ori text Te Tiriti o Waitangi should be applied to decision-making in >>New Zealand, the “Treaty principles�? have developed over decades to smooth
out differences in interpretation."

However this has not suceeded in smoothing things out. So we really need to >>sort this out people.

In my view there needs to be an agreement there is two parts, and as much as >>possible have the history and the future, what the Treaty means for the >>country as a whole.

Good on you Gordon, however I differ.
The only Treaty stands alone, the priciples should be abandoned and we should >embrace the multi national, multi racial, multi beliefs of this country.
I live in a small community that has many races, and we get on famously. Why? >Because we are all of one mind - one country, one people and one society - if >only the rest of the country was so.

The election results demonstrate that we are not all of one mind - and thankfully so. If anything, we are more divided; the support for both
major parties has reduced, with more smaller parties getting more
seats in parliament than in previous elections.

The only parties to the Treaty are Maori and The Crown, represented
now by a parliament that is no longer linked to imperial power, but
the Treaty nevertheless applies to all Maori, and requires enduring consideration by a government now elected by a greater proportion of
those who have been immigrants from a range of nations than was the
case when the Treaty was signed. That the Right, who loudly proclaim
that more legislation should be based on property rights, appear to be
doing more to try to get Treaty provisions set aside or ignored, by a
pretence of all people ''getting on famously" is clearly hypocritical
- the Treaty does represent "property rights" as well as other rights
to those who signed it all those years ago.

It appears that ''sanctity of contract"" has less meaning for the far
right than it used to. Both major parties have worked hard to provide
redress for historic wrongs, with Chris Finlayson defending
co-governance strongly against the ignorant opposition to a method of
redress that reflects the aims of the Treaty well.

The courting of the ignorant, the bigoted and the plain crazy has
traveled from Trump-land to our shores - let us hope that we can avoid
the worst of it.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Sun, 26 Nov 2023 20:04:21 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:

Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>https://www.thepost.co.nz/a/politics/350118859/whose-treaty-it-anyway-national-led-government-takes-two-stage-approach-changing

This is a good article. I do not agree with all of it, as is often the case >>>but it does set out the issues.

The starting point for discussion could be, Do these rules/principles look >>>reasonable and fair?

Quote

The bill would rewrite the Government’s 1989 Treaty principles which set >>>out the fundamentals of the Crown-M�?ori relationship:

The Government has the right to govern and make laws.
Iwi have the right to organise as iwi to control resources.
All New Zealanders are equal before the law.
Government and iwi are obliged to co-operate on major issues of common >>>concern.
The Government is responsible for providing an effective resolution >>>process for Treaty grievances.

These principles would be replaced with three principles:

The New Zealand Government has the right to govern New Zealand.
The New Zealand Government will protect all New Zealanders’ authority >>>over their land and other property.
All New Zealanders are equal under the law, with the same
rights and duties.

Unquote.

I have concerns that The Treaty does not have principles, it has actions >>>which each side agrees to.

The article also says

"As there is no single view of how the Treaty of Waitangi and the differing >>>M�?ori text Te Tiriti o Waitangi should be applied to decision-making in >>>New Zealand, the “Treaty principles�? have developed over decades to >>>smooth
out differences in interpretation."

However this has not suceeded in smoothing things out. So we really need to >>>sort this out people.

In my view there needs to be an agreement there is two parts, and as much as >>>possible have the history and the future, what the Treaty means for the >>>country as a whole.

Good on you Gordon, however I differ.
The only Treaty stands alone, the priciples should be abandoned and we should >>embrace the multi national, multi racial, multi beliefs of this country.
I live in a small community that has many races, and we get on famously. Why? >>Because we are all of one mind - one country, one people and one society - if >>only the rest of the country was so.

The election results demonstrate that we are not all of one mind

I didn't say we are. My community is.

- and
thankfully so. If anything, we are more divided; the support for both
major parties has reduced, with more smaller parties getting more
seats in parliament than in previous elections.

The division was imposed by Labour over the past 3 years - we now have a chance to fix that - you don't want it fixed so you are doing all you can to damage this country by attacking the government before it demonstrates any failures. Shame on you.

The only parties to the Treaty are Maori and The Crown, represented
now by a parliament that is no longer linked to imperial power, but
the Treaty nevertheless applies to all Maori, and requires enduring >consideration by a government now elected by a greater proportion of
those who have been immigrants from a range of nations than was the
case when the Treaty was signed. That the Right, who loudly proclaim
that more legislation should be based on property rights, appear to be
doing more to try to get Treaty provisions set aside or ignored, by a >pretence of all people ''getting on famously" is clearly hypocritical
- the Treaty does represent "property rights" as well as other rights
to those who signed it all those years ago.

Irrelevant - the Treaty stands alone and the so-called priciples are political constructs that have nothing to do with the Treaty.

It appears that ''sanctity of contract"" has less meaning for the far
right than it used to.

No such thing as far right in this governemnt - and sanctity of contract is a trite phrase thrown about by those that hate democracy.

Both major parties have worked hard to provide
redress for historic wrongs, with Chris Finlayson defending
co-governance strongly against the ignorant opposition to a method of
redress that reflects the aims of the Treaty well.

Another lie, debunked many times here but you persist in lying.

The courting of the ignorant, the bigoted and the plain crazy has
traveled from Trump-land to our shores - let us hope that we can avoid
the worst of it.

We already have - we threw them out last month.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)