There has been many column inches about the state of the health system in NZ. >Not of alot of it praise in them.
Recently I needed to give a blood sample. Picked a site closeby and presented >myself at 8:45am on a week day. There were about 10 car parking spaces with >had great activity as the clients came and left.
As I was getting out of the car a couple of men came out and leant against >their car. They seemed to be waiting. I walked over to the entrance and slid >the door ajar. First impression it was busy and second was that there was no >room to swing a dead cat as my Grand Mother would say. One needed to be >careful as there was only enough room to move with care.
The inquiry counter was behind a row of chairs with people waiting on them. >The digtial registration process functioned rather well. Once you could read >the instructions or if you had forgetten. There was the usual number of
under 5 year olds who got under peoples feet.
Three infirm people (eldery) came in and straight away were offered a seat. >(This Jacina is what being kind means).
I came to the top of the queue and was ushed into a makeshift (temporary) room >which looked as if it was going to stay for some time.
"Bit busy to-day" I said.
"Yes it always this way"
"Been waiting long?"
"Long enough came my diplomatic reply. You could with some more space"
"And also some more staff"
"Indeed"
The staff were working under not the easiest of conditions and showing great >calmness.
On leaving I noticed a sign offering for the clients to give feedback on >their experience. Really, are they serious, I thought then thought maybe >everyone should suggest that the new Health Minister do a tour of duty doing >what the people they serve experience.
One thing for sure it can be done better and should be better. This is the >front end of the public health system which should be easy to get right, for >everyone. A few improvements and some little funding is all that is
required. This is low hanging fruit.
There has been many column inches about the state of the health system in NZ. >Not of alot of it praise in them.
Recently I needed to give a blood sample. Picked a site closeby and presented >myself at 8:45am on a week day. There were about 10 car parking spaces with >had great activity as the clients came and left.
As I was getting out of the car a couple of men came out and leant against >their car. They seemed to be waiting. I walked over to the entrance and slid >the door ajar. First impression it was busy and second was that there was no >room to swing a dead cat as my Grand Mother would say. One needed to be >careful as there was only enough room to move with care.
The inquiry counter was behind a row of chairs with people waiting on them. >The digtial registration process functioned rather well. Once you could read >the instructions or if you had forgetten. There was the usual number of
under 5 year olds who got under peoples feet.
Three infirm people (eldery) came in and straight away were offered a seat. >(This Jacina is what being kind means).
I came to the top of the queue and was ushed into a makeshift (temporary) room >which looked as if it was going to stay for some time.
"Bit busy to-day" I said.
"Yes it always this way"
"Been waiting long?"
"Long enough came my diplomatic reply. You could with some more space"
"And also some more staff"
"Indeed"
The staff were working under not the easiest of conditions and showing great >calmness.
On leaving I noticed a sign offering for the clients to give feedback on >their experience. Really, are they serious, I thought then thought maybe >everyone should suggest that the new Health Minister do a tour of duty doing >what the people they serve experience.
One thing for sure it can be done better and should be better. This is the >front end of the public health system which should be easy to get right, for >everyone. A few improvements and some little funding is all that is
required. This is low hanging fruit.
On 1 Nov 2023 02:59:15 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
There has been many column inches about the state of the health system in NZ. >>Not of alot of it praise in them.
Recently I needed to give a blood sample. Picked a site closeby and presented >>myself at 8:45am on a week day. There were about 10 car parking spaces with >>had great activity as the clients came and left.
As I was getting out of the car a couple of men came out and leant against >>their car. They seemed to be waiting. I walked over to the entrance and slid >>the door ajar. First impression it was busy and second was that there was no >>room to swing a dead cat as my Grand Mother would say. One needed to be >>careful as there was only enough room to move with care.
The inquiry counter was behind a row of chairs with people waiting on them. >>The digtial registration process functioned rather well. Once you could read >>the instructions or if you had forgetten. There was the usual number of >>under 5 year olds who got under peoples feet.
Three infirm people (eldery) came in and straight away were offered a seat. >>(This Jacina is what being kind means).
I came to the top of the queue and was ushed into a makeshift (temporary) room
which looked as if it was going to stay for some time.
"Bit busy to-day" I said.
"Yes it always this way"
"Been waiting long?"
"Long enough came my diplomatic reply. You could with some more space"
"And also some more staff"
"Indeed"
The staff were working under not the easiest of conditions and showing great >>calmness.
On leaving I noticed a sign offering for the clients to give feedback on >>their experience. Really, are they serious, I thought then thought maybe >>everyone should suggest that the new Health Minister do a tour of duty doing >>what the people they serve experience.
One thing for sure it can be done better and should be better. This is the >>front end of the public health system which should be easy to get right, for >>everyone. A few improvements and some little funding is all that is >>required. This is low hanging fruit.
Gordon - there is a lot of low-handing fruit with Health.
Take end-of-life palliative care:
https://www.hospice.org.nz/
This is an overall view. Now look at a specific hospice organisation:
https://www.hospicemn.org.nz/page/about/
Note that Hospice NZ claims that the government funds around 50% of
the cost of service provision - but for Hospice Mid-North that is just
over 30% - a situation that have got markedly worse over the last 6
years. I am one of many volunteers in a low-population-density region
that keeps the lights on for an organisation dedicated to end-of-life
care for those that Health NZ declares to be afflicted with
life-ending health issues.
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 20:11:06 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:
On 1 Nov 2023 02:59:15 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
There has been many column inches about the state of the health system in NZ.
Not of alot of it praise in them.
Recently I needed to give a blood sample. Picked a site closeby and presented
myself at 8:45am on a week day. There were about 10 car parking spaces with >>>had great activity as the clients came and left.
As I was getting out of the car a couple of men came out and leant against >>>their car. They seemed to be waiting. I walked over to the entrance and slid >>>the door ajar. First impression it was busy and second was that there was no >>>room to swing a dead cat as my Grand Mother would say. One needed to be >>>careful as there was only enough room to move with care.
The inquiry counter was behind a row of chairs with people waiting on them. >>>The digtial registration process functioned rather well. Once you could read >>>the instructions or if you had forgetten. There was the usual number of >>>under 5 year olds who got under peoples feet.
Three infirm people (eldery) came in and straight away were offered a seat. >>>(This Jacina is what being kind means).
I came to the top of the queue and was ushed into a makeshift (temporary) room
which looked as if it was going to stay for some time.
"Bit busy to-day" I said.
"Yes it always this way"
"Been waiting long?"
"Long enough came my diplomatic reply. You could with some more space"
"And also some more staff"
"Indeed"
The staff were working under not the easiest of conditions and showing great >>>calmness.
On leaving I noticed a sign offering for the clients to give feedback on >>>their experience. Really, are they serious, I thought then thought maybe >>>everyone should suggest that the new Health Minister do a tour of duty doing >>>what the people they serve experience.
One thing for sure it can be done better and should be better. This is the >>>front end of the public health system which should be easy to get right, for >>>everyone. A few improvements and some little funding is all that is >>>required. This is low hanging fruit.
Gordon - there is a lot of low-handing fruit with Health.
Take end-of-life palliative care:
https://www.hospice.org.nz/
This is an overall view. Now look at a specific hospice organisation:
https://www.hospicemn.org.nz/page/about/
Note that Hospice NZ claims that the government funds around 50% of
the cost of service provision - but for Hospice Mid-North that is just
over 30% - a situation that have got markedly worse over the last 6
years. I am one of many volunteers in a low-population-density region
that keeps the lights on for an organisation dedicated to end-of-life
care for those that Health NZ declares to be afflicted with
life-ending health issues.
So are you advocating that government should give priority to a large >increase in funding for hospices? That would be very expensive - why
do you consider it "low-hanging fruit"?
I am not sure if either hospices or a blood collection centre as
described by Gordon are appropriately described as the front end of
the public health system; but it is also unclear just what effect
increasing government funding would achieve in either case.
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 10:53:39 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 20:11:06 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>wrote:
On 1 Nov 2023 02:59:15 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
There has been many column inches about the state of the health system in NZ.
Not of alot of it praise in them.
Recently I needed to give a blood sample. Picked a site closeby and presented
myself at 8:45am on a week day. There were about 10 car parking spaces with >>>>had great activity as the clients came and left.
As I was getting out of the car a couple of men came out and leant against >>>>their car. They seemed to be waiting. I walked over to the entrance and slid
the door ajar. First impression it was busy and second was that there was no
room to swing a dead cat as my Grand Mother would say. One needed to be >>>>careful as there was only enough room to move with care.
The inquiry counter was behind a row of chairs with people waiting on them. >>>>The digtial registration process functioned rather well. Once you could read
the instructions or if you had forgetten. There was the usual number of >>>>under 5 year olds who got under peoples feet.
Three infirm people (eldery) came in and straight away were offered a seat. >>>>(This Jacina is what being kind means).
I came to the top of the queue and was ushed into a makeshift (temporary) room
which looked as if it was going to stay for some time.
"Bit busy to-day" I said.
"Yes it always this way"
"Been waiting long?"
"Long enough came my diplomatic reply. You could with some more space"
"And also some more staff"
"Indeed"
The staff were working under not the easiest of conditions and showing great
calmness.
On leaving I noticed a sign offering for the clients to give feedback on >>>>their experience. Really, are they serious, I thought then thought maybe >>>>everyone should suggest that the new Health Minister do a tour of duty doing
what the people they serve experience.
One thing for sure it can be done better and should be better. This is the >>>>front end of the public health system which should be easy to get right, for
everyone. A few improvements and some little funding is all that is >>>>required. This is low hanging fruit.
Gordon - there is a lot of low-handing fruit with Health.
Take end-of-life palliative care:
https://www.hospice.org.nz/
This is an overall view. Now look at a specific hospice organisation:
https://www.hospicemn.org.nz/page/about/
Note that Hospice NZ claims that the government funds around 50% of
the cost of service provision - but for Hospice Mid-North that is just >>>over 30% - a situation that have got markedly worse over the last 6 >>>years. I am one of many volunteers in a low-population-density region >>>that keeps the lights on for an organisation dedicated to end-of-life >>>care for those that Health NZ declares to be afflicted with
life-ending health issues.
So are you advocating that government should give priority to a large >>increase in funding for hospices? That would be very expensive - why
do you consider it "low-hanging fruit"?
My post was quite straightforward but I will elucidate further. I am >advocating that Hospice funding be returned to the same level of cost >reimbursement for each Hospice organisation that the previous
National-led governments paid. This is not an increase as such - it
is to address cost inflation. This is reasonable given that Hospice >organisations are all not-for-profit charities and provide core
services that Health NZ would otherwise have to fund in full (or
otherwise). The balance of costs is met from continuous fundraising.
I made no comment whatever on urgency or priority and I don't
understand how you arrived at any conclusion that I did.
I am not sure if either hospices or a blood collection centre as
described by Gordon are appropriately described as the front end of
the public health system; but it is also unclear just what effect >>increasing government funding would achieve in either case.
I am commenting solely on Hospices. This is one that is in trouble:
https://tinyurl.com/bdbkdn57
They are in a relatively good space with 55% of costs covered.
Hospice Mid-North (covers mid-Northland outside Whangarei) fares far
worse. As a member I get up-to-date information and the funding from
Health NZ covers just 34% of costs - just 3 years ago this was just
over 50%. They can continue because they receive significant business >sponsorship and community support but both funding sources are
stretched to the limit.
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 14:04:37 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>Hospices are absolutely essential health costs. They provide services that are unavailable in most hospitals.
wrote:
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 10:53:39 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 20:11:06 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>wrote:
On 1 Nov 2023 02:59:15 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
There has been many column inches about the state of the health system in >>>>>NZ.
Not of alot of it praise in them.
Recently I needed to give a blood sample. Picked a site closeby and >>>>>presented
myself at 8:45am on a week day. There were about 10 car parking spaces with
had great activity as the clients came and left.
As I was getting out of the car a couple of men came out and leant against >>>>>their car. They seemed to be waiting. I walked over to the entrance and >>>>>slid
the door ajar. First impression it was busy and second was that there was >>>>>no
room to swing a dead cat as my Grand Mother would say. One needed to be >>>>>careful as there was only enough room to move with care.
The inquiry counter was behind a row of chairs with people waiting on them.
The digtial registration process functioned rather well. Once you could >>>>>read
the instructions or if you had forgetten. There was the usual number of >>>>>under 5 year olds who got under peoples feet.
Three infirm people (eldery) came in and straight away were offered a seat.
(This Jacina is what being kind means).
I came to the top of the queue and was ushed into a makeshift (temporary) >>>>>room
which looked as if it was going to stay for some time.
"Bit busy to-day" I said.
"Yes it always this way"
"Been waiting long?"
"Long enough came my diplomatic reply. You could with some more space" >>>>>
"And also some more staff"
"Indeed"
The staff were working under not the easiest of conditions and showing >>>>>great
calmness.
On leaving I noticed a sign offering for the clients to give feedback on >>>>>their experience. Really, are they serious, I thought then thought maybe >>>>>everyone should suggest that the new Health Minister do a tour of duty >>>>>doing
what the people they serve experience.
One thing for sure it can be done better and should be better. This is the >>>>>front end of the public health system which should be easy to get right, >>>>>for
everyone. A few improvements and some little funding is all that is >>>>>required. This is low hanging fruit.
Gordon - there is a lot of low-handing fruit with Health.
Take end-of-life palliative care:
https://www.hospice.org.nz/
This is an overall view. Now look at a specific hospice organisation:
https://www.hospicemn.org.nz/page/about/
Note that Hospice NZ claims that the government funds around 50% of
the cost of service provision - but for Hospice Mid-North that is just >>>>over 30% - a situation that have got markedly worse over the last 6 >>>>years. I am one of many volunteers in a low-population-density region >>>>that keeps the lights on for an organisation dedicated to end-of-life >>>>care for those that Health NZ declares to be afflicted with
life-ending health issues.
So are you advocating that government should give priority to a large >>>increase in funding for hospices? That would be very expensive - why
do you consider it "low-hanging fruit"?
My post was quite straightforward but I will elucidate further. I am >>advocating that Hospice funding be returned to the same level of cost >>reimbursement for each Hospice organisation that the previous
National-led governments paid. This is not an increase as such - it
is to address cost inflation. This is reasonable given that Hospice >>organisations are all not-for-profit charities and provide core
services that Health NZ would otherwise have to fund in full (or >>otherwise). The balance of costs is met from continuous fundraising.
I made no comment whatever on urgency or priority and I don't
understand how you arrived at any conclusion that I did.
I am not sure if either hospices or a blood collection centre as >>>described by Gordon are appropriately described as the front end of
the public health system; but it is also unclear just what effect >>>increasing government funding would achieve in either case.
I am commenting solely on Hospices. This is one that is in trouble:
https://tinyurl.com/bdbkdn57
They are in a relatively good space with 55% of costs covered.
Hospice Mid-North (covers mid-Northland outside Whangarei) fares far
worse. As a member I get up-to-date information and the funding from >>Health NZ covers just 34% of costs - just 3 years ago this was just
over 50%. They can continue because they receive significant business >>sponsorship and community support but both funding sources are
stretched to the limit.
You have indicated that you believe funding for Hospices from
government has fallen in recent years - do you have any evidence of
that? Secondly, why do you believe that government needs to fund such >services at all? These are not essential health costs, they are part
of normal life - in the lifetime of many living today there were no
hospices. Where is the balance with personal and family
responsibilities?
There has been many column inches about the state of the health system in NZ. >Not of alot of it praise in them.
Recently I needed to give a blood sample. Picked a site closeby and presented >myself at 8:45am on a week day. There were about 10 car parking spaces with >had great activity as the clients came and left.
As I was getting out of the car a couple of men came out and leant against >their car. They seemed to be waiting. I walked over to the entrance and slid >the door ajar. First impression it was busy and second was that there was no >room to swing a dead cat as my Grand Mother would say. One needed to be >careful as there was only enough room to move with care.
The inquiry counter was behind a row of chairs with people waiting on them. >The digtial registration process functioned rather well. Once you could read >the instructions or if you had forgetten. There was the usual number of
under 5 year olds who got under peoples feet.
Three infirm people (eldery) came in and straight away were offered a seat. >(This Jacina is what being kind means).
I came to the top of the queue and was ushed into a makeshift (temporary) room >which looked as if it was going to stay for some time.
"Bit busy to-day" I said.
"Yes it always this way"
"Been waiting long?"
"Long enough came my diplomatic reply. You could with some more space"
"And also some more staff"
"Indeed"
The staff were working under not the easiest of conditions and showing great >calmness.
On leaving I noticed a sign offering for the clients to give feedback on >their experience. Really, are they serious, I thought then thought maybe >everyone should suggest that the new Health Minister do a tour of duty doing >what the people they serve experience.
One thing for sure it can be done better and should be better. This is the >front end of the public health system which should be easy to get right, for >everyone. A few improvements and some little funding is all that is
required. This is low hanging fruit.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 14:04:37 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>wrote:Hospices are absolutely essential health costs. They provide services that are >unavailable in most hospitals.
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 10:53:39 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 20:11:06 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>wrote:
On 1 Nov 2023 02:59:15 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
There has been many column inches about the state of the health system in >>>>>>NZ.
Not of alot of it praise in them.
Recently I needed to give a blood sample. Picked a site closeby and >>>>>>presented
myself at 8:45am on a week day. There were about 10 car parking spaces with
had great activity as the clients came and left.
As I was getting out of the car a couple of men came out and leant against
their car. They seemed to be waiting. I walked over to the entrance and >>>>>>slid
the door ajar. First impression it was busy and second was that there was >>>>>>no
room to swing a dead cat as my Grand Mother would say. One needed to be >>>>>>careful as there was only enough room to move with care.
The inquiry counter was behind a row of chairs with people waiting on them.
The digtial registration process functioned rather well. Once you could >>>>>>read
the instructions or if you had forgetten. There was the usual number of >>>>>>under 5 year olds who got under peoples feet.
Three infirm people (eldery) came in and straight away were offered a seat.
(This Jacina is what being kind means).
I came to the top of the queue and was ushed into a makeshift (temporary) >>>>>>room
which looked as if it was going to stay for some time.
"Bit busy to-day" I said.
"Yes it always this way"
"Been waiting long?"
"Long enough came my diplomatic reply. You could with some more space" >>>>>>
"And also some more staff"
"Indeed"
The staff were working under not the easiest of conditions and showing >>>>>>great
calmness.
On leaving I noticed a sign offering for the clients to give feedback on >>>>>>their experience. Really, are they serious, I thought then thought maybe >>>>>>everyone should suggest that the new Health Minister do a tour of duty >>>>>>doing
what the people they serve experience.
One thing for sure it can be done better and should be better. This is the
front end of the public health system which should be easy to get right, >>>>>>for
everyone. A few improvements and some little funding is all that is >>>>>>required. This is low hanging fruit.
Gordon - there is a lot of low-handing fruit with Health.
Take end-of-life palliative care:
https://www.hospice.org.nz/
This is an overall view. Now look at a specific hospice organisation: >>>>>
https://www.hospicemn.org.nz/page/about/
Note that Hospice NZ claims that the government funds around 50% of >>>>>the cost of service provision - but for Hospice Mid-North that is just >>>>>over 30% - a situation that have got markedly worse over the last 6 >>>>>years. I am one of many volunteers in a low-population-density region >>>>>that keeps the lights on for an organisation dedicated to end-of-life >>>>>care for those that Health NZ declares to be afflicted with >>>>>life-ending health issues.
So are you advocating that government should give priority to a large >>>>increase in funding for hospices? That would be very expensive - why
do you consider it "low-hanging fruit"?
My post was quite straightforward but I will elucidate further. I am >>>advocating that Hospice funding be returned to the same level of cost >>>reimbursement for each Hospice organisation that the previous >>>National-led governments paid. This is not an increase as such - it
is to address cost inflation. This is reasonable given that Hospice >>>organisations are all not-for-profit charities and provide core
services that Health NZ would otherwise have to fund in full (or >>>otherwise). The balance of costs is met from continuous fundraising.
I made no comment whatever on urgency or priority and I don't
understand how you arrived at any conclusion that I did.
I am not sure if either hospices or a blood collection centre as >>>>described by Gordon are appropriately described as the front end of
the public health system; but it is also unclear just what effect >>>>increasing government funding would achieve in either case.
I am commenting solely on Hospices. This is one that is in trouble:
https://tinyurl.com/bdbkdn57
They are in a relatively good space with 55% of costs covered.
Hospice Mid-North (covers mid-Northland outside Whangarei) fares far >>>worse. As a member I get up-to-date information and the funding from >>>Health NZ covers just 34% of costs - just 3 years ago this was just
over 50%. They can continue because they receive significant business >>>sponsorship and community support but both funding sources are
stretched to the limit.
You have indicated that you believe funding for Hospices from
government has fallen in recent years - do you have any evidence of
that? Secondly, why do you believe that government needs to fund such >>services at all? These are not essential health costs, they are part
of normal life - in the lifetime of many living today there were no >>hospices. Where is the balance with personal and family
responsibilities?
An example of that is that hospices specialise in pain management, something >that hospitals often struggle with. That is not the only example.
If you were to do a tiny bit of research you would know that.
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 14:04:37 +1300, Crash <nog...@dontbother.invalid>More to the point Rich. Do YOU have any evidence to contradict Crash? Unlike you Crash doesn't lie to score political points! Also, why do you think government shouldn't fund a service that takes pressure of our overstretched health system?
wrote:
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 10:53:39 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 20:11:06 +1300, Crash <nog...@dontbother.invalid> >>wrote:
On 1 Nov 2023 02:59:15 GMT, Gordon <Gor...@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
There has been many column inches about the state of the health system in NZ.
Not of alot of it praise in them.
Recently I needed to give a blood sample. Picked a site closeby and presented
myself at 8:45am on a week day. There were about 10 car parking spaces with
had great activity as the clients came and left.
As I was getting out of the car a couple of men came out and leant against
their car. They seemed to be waiting. I walked over to the entrance and slid
the door ajar. First impression it was busy and second was that there was no
room to swing a dead cat as my Grand Mother would say. One needed to be >>>>careful as there was only enough room to move with care.
The inquiry counter was behind a row of chairs with people waiting on them.
The digtial registration process functioned rather well. Once you could read
the instructions or if you had forgetten. There was the usual number of >>>>under 5 year olds who got under peoples feet.
Three infirm people (eldery) came in and straight away were offered a seat.
(This Jacina is what being kind means).
I came to the top of the queue and was ushed into a makeshift (temporary) room
which looked as if it was going to stay for some time.
"Bit busy to-day" I said.
"Yes it always this way"
"Been waiting long?"
"Long enough came my diplomatic reply. You could with some more space" >>>>
"And also some more staff"
"Indeed"
The staff were working under not the easiest of conditions and showing great
calmness.
On leaving I noticed a sign offering for the clients to give feedback on >>>>their experience. Really, are they serious, I thought then thought maybe >>>>everyone should suggest that the new Health Minister do a tour of duty doing
what the people they serve experience.
One thing for sure it can be done better and should be better. This is the
front end of the public health system which should be easy to get right, for
everyone. A few improvements and some little funding is all that is >>>>required. This is low hanging fruit.
Gordon - there is a lot of low-handing fruit with Health.
Take end-of-life palliative care:
https://www.hospice.org.nz/
This is an overall view. Now look at a specific hospice organisation:
https://www.hospicemn.org.nz/page/about/
Note that Hospice NZ claims that the government funds around 50% of >>>the cost of service provision - but for Hospice Mid-North that is just >>>over 30% - a situation that have got markedly worse over the last 6 >>>years. I am one of many volunteers in a low-population-density region >>>that keeps the lights on for an organisation dedicated to end-of-life >>>care for those that Health NZ declares to be afflicted with >>>life-ending health issues.
So are you advocating that government should give priority to a large >>increase in funding for hospices? That would be very expensive - why
do you consider it "low-hanging fruit"?
My post was quite straightforward but I will elucidate further. I am >advocating that Hospice funding be returned to the same level of cost >reimbursement for each Hospice organisation that the previous
National-led governments paid. This is not an increase as such - it
is to address cost inflation. This is reasonable given that Hospice >organisations are all not-for-profit charities and provide core
services that Health NZ would otherwise have to fund in full (or >otherwise). The balance of costs is met from continuous fundraising.
I made no comment whatever on urgency or priority and I don't
understand how you arrived at any conclusion that I did.
I am not sure if either hospices or a blood collection centre as >>described by Gordon are appropriately described as the front end of
the public health system; but it is also unclear just what effect >>increasing government funding would achieve in either case.
I am commenting solely on Hospices. This is one that is in trouble:
https://tinyurl.com/bdbkdn57
They are in a relatively good space with 55% of costs covered.
Hospice Mid-North (covers mid-Northland outside Whangarei) fares far >worse. As a member I get up-to-date information and the funding from >Health NZ covers just 34% of costs - just 3 years ago this was justYou have indicated that you believe funding for Hospices from
over 50%. They can continue because they receive significant business >sponsorship and community support but both funding sources are
stretched to the limit.
government has fallen in recent years - do you have any evidence of
that? Secondly, why do you believe that government needs to fund such services at all? These are not essential health costs, they are part
of normal life - in the lifetime of many living today there were no hospices. Where is the balance with personal and family
responsibilities?
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 20:13:13 -0000 (UTC), TonyPain management is a hospice speciality - I merely pointed out that your comment was wilfully ignorant.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 14:04:37 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>wrote:Hospices are absolutely essential health costs. They provide services that >>are
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 10:53:39 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 20:11:06 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>wrote:
On 1 Nov 2023 02:59:15 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
There has been many column inches about the state of the health system >>>>>>>in
NZ.
Not of alot of it praise in them.
Recently I needed to give a blood sample. Picked a site closeby and >>>>>>>presented
myself at 8:45am on a week day. There were about 10 car parking spaces >>>>>>>with
had great activity as the clients came and left.
As I was getting out of the car a couple of men came out and leant >>>>>>>against
their car. They seemed to be waiting. I walked over to the entrance and >>>>>>>slid
the door ajar. First impression it was busy and second was that there >>>>>>>was
no
room to swing a dead cat as my Grand Mother would say. One needed to be >>>>>>>careful as there was only enough room to move with care.
The inquiry counter was behind a row of chairs with people waiting on >>>>>>>them.
The digtial registration process functioned rather well. Once you could >>>>>>>read
the instructions or if you had forgetten. There was the usual number of >>>>>>>under 5 year olds who got under peoples feet.
Three infirm people (eldery) came in and straight away were offered a >>>>>>>seat.
(This Jacina is what being kind means).
I came to the top of the queue and was ushed into a makeshift >>>>>>>(temporary)
room
which looked as if it was going to stay for some time.
"Bit busy to-day" I said.
"Yes it always this way"
"Been waiting long?"
"Long enough came my diplomatic reply. You could with some more space" >>>>>>>
"And also some more staff"
"Indeed"
The staff were working under not the easiest of conditions and showing >>>>>>>great
calmness.
On leaving I noticed a sign offering for the clients to give feedback on >>>>>>>their experience. Really, are they serious, I thought then thought maybe >>>>>>>everyone should suggest that the new Health Minister do a tour of duty >>>>>>>doing
what the people they serve experience.
One thing for sure it can be done better and should be better. This is >>>>>>>the
front end of the public health system which should be easy to get right, >>>>>>>for
everyone. A few improvements and some little funding is all that is >>>>>>>required. This is low hanging fruit.
Gordon - there is a lot of low-handing fruit with Health.
Take end-of-life palliative care:
https://www.hospice.org.nz/
This is an overall view. Now look at a specific hospice organisation: >>>>>>
https://www.hospicemn.org.nz/page/about/
Note that Hospice NZ claims that the government funds around 50% of >>>>>>the cost of service provision - but for Hospice Mid-North that is just >>>>>>over 30% - a situation that have got markedly worse over the last 6 >>>>>>years. I am one of many volunteers in a low-population-density region >>>>>>that keeps the lights on for an organisation dedicated to end-of-life >>>>>>care for those that Health NZ declares to be afflicted with >>>>>>life-ending health issues.
So are you advocating that government should give priority to a large >>>>>increase in funding for hospices? That would be very expensive - why >>>>>do you consider it "low-hanging fruit"?
My post was quite straightforward but I will elucidate further. I am >>>>advocating that Hospice funding be returned to the same level of cost >>>>reimbursement for each Hospice organisation that the previous >>>>National-led governments paid. This is not an increase as such - it
is to address cost inflation. This is reasonable given that Hospice >>>>organisations are all not-for-profit charities and provide core >>>>services that Health NZ would otherwise have to fund in full (or >>>>otherwise). The balance of costs is met from continuous fundraising.
I made no comment whatever on urgency or priority and I don't >>>>understand how you arrived at any conclusion that I did.
I am not sure if either hospices or a blood collection centre as >>>>>described by Gordon are appropriately described as the front end of >>>>>the public health system; but it is also unclear just what effect >>>>>increasing government funding would achieve in either case.
I am commenting solely on Hospices. This is one that is in trouble:
https://tinyurl.com/bdbkdn57
They are in a relatively good space with 55% of costs covered.
Hospice Mid-North (covers mid-Northland outside Whangarei) fares far >>>>worse. As a member I get up-to-date information and the funding from >>>>Health NZ covers just 34% of costs - just 3 years ago this was just >>>>over 50%. They can continue because they receive significant business >>>>sponsorship and community support but both funding sources are >>>>stretched to the limit.
You have indicated that you believe funding for Hospices from
government has fallen in recent years - do you have any evidence of
that? Secondly, why do you believe that government needs to fund such >>>services at all? These are not essential health costs, they are part
of normal life - in the lifetime of many living today there were no >>>hospices. Where is the balance with personal and family
responsibilities?
unavailable in most hospitals.
An example of that is that hospices specialise in pain management, something >>that hospitals often struggle with. That is not the only example.
If you were to do a tiny bit of research you would know that.
We seem to have drifted away from the initial comment about waiting
times for having a blood sample taken - what sort of management would
regard staff being busy as needing more staff so they were not busy?
For hospices, it is really a matter of priorities - the charityA good try Rich - but you are the one that is drifting now.
industry seems to be doing fairly well for a service that is not
needed by the majority of people - why should it be given priority
over for example resources in hospitals to bring down waiting lists
for surgery or specialist appointments? I would prefer that our
government goes for the spending that best improves the health of our
nation - spending money on queues for blood samples, or a perceived
shortage of hospices may not be the most urgent priority, although I
can see how that would appeal to the entitled wealthy . . .
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:That does not mean that without a hospice pain management is not
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 20:13:13 -0000 (UTC), TonyPain management is a hospice speciality - I merely pointed out that your >comment was wilfully ignorant.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 14:04:37 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>wrote:Hospices are absolutely essential health costs. They provide services that >>>are
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 10:53:39 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 20:11:06 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>wrote:
On 1 Nov 2023 02:59:15 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
There has been many column inches about the state of the health system >>>>>>>>in
NZ.
Not of alot of it praise in them.
Recently I needed to give a blood sample. Picked a site closeby and >>>>>>>>presented
myself at 8:45am on a week day. There were about 10 car parking spaces >>>>>>>>with
had great activity as the clients came and left.
As I was getting out of the car a couple of men came out and leant >>>>>>>>against
their car. They seemed to be waiting. I walked over to the entrance and >>>>>>>>slid
the door ajar. First impression it was busy and second was that there >>>>>>>>was
no
room to swing a dead cat as my Grand Mother would say. One needed to be >>>>>>>>careful as there was only enough room to move with care.
The inquiry counter was behind a row of chairs with people waiting on >>>>>>>>them.
The digtial registration process functioned rather well. Once you could >>>>>>>>read
the instructions or if you had forgetten. There was the usual number of >>>>>>>>under 5 year olds who got under peoples feet.
Three infirm people (eldery) came in and straight away were offered a >>>>>>>>seat.
(This Jacina is what being kind means).
I came to the top of the queue and was ushed into a makeshift >>>>>>>>(temporary)
room
which looked as if it was going to stay for some time.
"Bit busy to-day" I said.
"Yes it always this way"
"Been waiting long?"
"Long enough came my diplomatic reply. You could with some more space" >>>>>>>>
"And also some more staff"
"Indeed"
The staff were working under not the easiest of conditions and showing >>>>>>>>great
calmness.
On leaving I noticed a sign offering for the clients to give feedback on
their experience. Really, are they serious, I thought then thought maybe
everyone should suggest that the new Health Minister do a tour of duty >>>>>>>>doing
what the people they serve experience.
One thing for sure it can be done better and should be better. This is >>>>>>>>the
front end of the public health system which should be easy to get right,
for
everyone. A few improvements and some little funding is all that is >>>>>>>>required. This is low hanging fruit.
Gordon - there is a lot of low-handing fruit with Health.
Take end-of-life palliative care:
https://www.hospice.org.nz/
This is an overall view. Now look at a specific hospice organisation: >>>>>>>
https://www.hospicemn.org.nz/page/about/
Note that Hospice NZ claims that the government funds around 50% of >>>>>>>the cost of service provision - but for Hospice Mid-North that is just >>>>>>>over 30% - a situation that have got markedly worse over the last 6 >>>>>>>years. I am one of many volunteers in a low-population-density region >>>>>>>that keeps the lights on for an organisation dedicated to end-of-life >>>>>>>care for those that Health NZ declares to be afflicted with >>>>>>>life-ending health issues.
So are you advocating that government should give priority to a large >>>>>>increase in funding for hospices? That would be very expensive - why >>>>>>do you consider it "low-hanging fruit"?
My post was quite straightforward but I will elucidate further. I am >>>>>advocating that Hospice funding be returned to the same level of cost >>>>>reimbursement for each Hospice organisation that the previous >>>>>National-led governments paid. This is not an increase as such - it >>>>>is to address cost inflation. This is reasonable given that Hospice >>>>>organisations are all not-for-profit charities and provide core >>>>>services that Health NZ would otherwise have to fund in full (or >>>>>otherwise). The balance of costs is met from continuous fundraising. >>>>>
I made no comment whatever on urgency or priority and I don't >>>>>understand how you arrived at any conclusion that I did.
I am not sure if either hospices or a blood collection centre as >>>>>>described by Gordon are appropriately described as the front end of >>>>>>the public health system; but it is also unclear just what effect >>>>>>increasing government funding would achieve in either case.
I am commenting solely on Hospices. This is one that is in trouble:
https://tinyurl.com/bdbkdn57
They are in a relatively good space with 55% of costs covered.
Hospice Mid-North (covers mid-Northland outside Whangarei) fares far >>>>>worse. As a member I get up-to-date information and the funding from >>>>>Health NZ covers just 34% of costs - just 3 years ago this was just >>>>>over 50%. They can continue because they receive significant business >>>>>sponsorship and community support but both funding sources are >>>>>stretched to the limit.
You have indicated that you believe funding for Hospices from >>>>government has fallen in recent years - do you have any evidence of >>>>that? Secondly, why do you believe that government needs to fund such >>>>services at all? These are not essential health costs, they are part
of normal life - in the lifetime of many living today there were no >>>>hospices. Where is the balance with personal and family >>>>responsibilities?
unavailable in most hospitals.
An example of that is that hospices specialise in pain management, something >>>that hospitals often struggle with. That is not the only example.
If you were to do a tiny bit of research you would know that.
We seem to have drifted away from the initial comment about waiting
times for having a blood sample taken - what sort of management would >>regard staff being busy as needing more staff so they were not busy?
A good try Rich - but you are the one that is drifting now.
For hospices, it is really a matter of priorities - the charity
industry seems to be doing fairly well for a service that is not
needed by the majority of people - why should it be given priority
over for example resources in hospitals to bring down waiting lists
for surgery or specialist appointments? I would prefer that our
government goes for the spending that best improves the health of our >>nation - spending money on queues for blood samples, or a perceived >>shortage of hospices may not be the most urgent priority, although I
can see how that would appeal to the entitled wealthy . . .
Hospices are essential and if you did the research you would know that. >Charities exist primarily because of a need that is not otherwise provided - >hospices are one such vital need.
Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
There has been many column inches about the state of the health system in NZ. >>Not of alot of it praise in them.
Recently I needed to give a blood sample. Picked a site closeby and presented >>myself at 8:45am on a week day. There were about 10 car parking spaces with >>had great activity as the clients came and left.
As I was getting out of the car a couple of men came out and leant against >>their car. They seemed to be waiting. I walked over to the entrance and slid >>the door ajar. First impression it was busy and second was that there was no >>room to swing a dead cat as my Grand Mother would say. One needed to be >>careful as there was only enough room to move with care.
The inquiry counter was behind a row of chairs with people waiting on them. >>The digtial registration process functioned rather well. Once you could read >>the instructions or if you had forgetten. There was the usual number of >>under 5 year olds who got under peoples feet.
Three infirm people (eldery) came in and straight away were offered a seat. >>(This Jacina is what being kind means).
I came to the top of the queue and was ushed into a makeshift (temporary) room
which looked as if it was going to stay for some time.
"Bit busy to-day" I said.
"Yes it always this way"
"Been waiting long?"
"Long enough came my diplomatic reply. You could with some more space"
"And also some more staff"
"Indeed"
The staff were working under not the easiest of conditions and showing great >>calmness.
On leaving I noticed a sign offering for the clients to give feedback on >>their experience. Really, are they serious, I thought then thought maybe >>everyone should suggest that the new Health Minister do a tour of duty doing >>what the people they serve experience.
One thing for sure it can be done better and should be better. This is the >>front end of the public health system which should be easy to get right, for >>everyone. A few improvements and some little funding is all that is >>required. This is low hanging fruit.
There's a medlab close to where I live here in Tauranga. It's been
closed since 2020 due to Covid and now lack of staff so if you want
a blood test or the life you have to go into town for it. No sign of
it being opened again.
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 20:13:13 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 14:04:37 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>wrote:Hospices are absolutely essential health costs. They provide services that are
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 10:53:39 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 20:11:06 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>wrote:
On 1 Nov 2023 02:59:15 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
There has been many column inches about the state of the health system in
NZ.
Not of alot of it praise in them.
Recently I needed to give a blood sample. Picked a site closeby and >>>>>>>presented
myself at 8:45am on a week day. There were about 10 car parking spaces with
had great activity as the clients came and left.
As I was getting out of the car a couple of men came out and leant against
their car. They seemed to be waiting. I walked over to the entrance and >>>>>>>slid
the door ajar. First impression it was busy and second was that there was
no
room to swing a dead cat as my Grand Mother would say. One needed to be >>>>>>>careful as there was only enough room to move with care.
The inquiry counter was behind a row of chairs with people waiting on them.
The digtial registration process functioned rather well. Once you could >>>>>>>read
the instructions or if you had forgetten. There was the usual number of >>>>>>>under 5 year olds who got under peoples feet.
Three infirm people (eldery) came in and straight away were offered a seat.
(This Jacina is what being kind means).
I came to the top of the queue and was ushed into a makeshift (temporary)
room
which looked as if it was going to stay for some time.
"Bit busy to-day" I said.
"Yes it always this way"
"Been waiting long?"
"Long enough came my diplomatic reply. You could with some more space" >>>>>>>
"And also some more staff"
"Indeed"
The staff were working under not the easiest of conditions and showing >>>>>>>great
calmness.
On leaving I noticed a sign offering for the clients to give feedback on >>>>>>>their experience. Really, are they serious, I thought then thought maybe >>>>>>>everyone should suggest that the new Health Minister do a tour of duty >>>>>>>doing
what the people they serve experience.
One thing for sure it can be done better and should be better. This is the
front end of the public health system which should be easy to get right, >>>>>>>for
everyone. A few improvements and some little funding is all that is >>>>>>>required. This is low hanging fruit.
Gordon - there is a lot of low-handing fruit with Health.
Take end-of-life palliative care:
https://www.hospice.org.nz/
This is an overall view. Now look at a specific hospice organisation: >>>>>>
https://www.hospicemn.org.nz/page/about/
Note that Hospice NZ claims that the government funds around 50% of >>>>>>the cost of service provision - but for Hospice Mid-North that is just >>>>>>over 30% - a situation that have got markedly worse over the last 6 >>>>>>years. I am one of many volunteers in a low-population-density region >>>>>>that keeps the lights on for an organisation dedicated to end-of-life >>>>>>care for those that Health NZ declares to be afflicted with >>>>>>life-ending health issues.
So are you advocating that government should give priority to a large >>>>>increase in funding for hospices? That would be very expensive - why >>>>>do you consider it "low-hanging fruit"?
My post was quite straightforward but I will elucidate further. I am >>>>advocating that Hospice funding be returned to the same level of cost >>>>reimbursement for each Hospice organisation that the previous >>>>National-led governments paid. This is not an increase as such - it
is to address cost inflation. This is reasonable given that Hospice >>>>organisations are all not-for-profit charities and provide core >>>>services that Health NZ would otherwise have to fund in full (or >>>>otherwise). The balance of costs is met from continuous fundraising.
I made no comment whatever on urgency or priority and I don't >>>>understand how you arrived at any conclusion that I did.
I am not sure if either hospices or a blood collection centre as >>>>>described by Gordon are appropriately described as the front end of >>>>>the public health system; but it is also unclear just what effect >>>>>increasing government funding would achieve in either case.
I am commenting solely on Hospices. This is one that is in trouble:
https://tinyurl.com/bdbkdn57
They are in a relatively good space with 55% of costs covered.
Hospice Mid-North (covers mid-Northland outside Whangarei) fares far >>>>worse. As a member I get up-to-date information and the funding from >>>>Health NZ covers just 34% of costs - just 3 years ago this was just >>>>over 50%. They can continue because they receive significant business >>>>sponsorship and community support but both funding sources are >>>>stretched to the limit.
You have indicated that you believe funding for Hospices from
government has fallen in recent years - do you have any evidence of
that? Secondly, why do you believe that government needs to fund such >>>services at all? These are not essential health costs, they are part
of normal life - in the lifetime of many living today there were no >>>hospices. Where is the balance with personal and family
responsibilities?
unavailable in most hospitals.
An example of that is that hospices specialise in pain management, something >>that hospitals often struggle with. That is not the only example.
If you were to do a tiny bit of research you would know that.
We seem to have drifted away from the initial comment about waiting
times for having a blood sample taken - what sort of management would
regard staff being busy as needing more staff so they were not busy?
For hospices, it is really a matter of priorities - the charity
industry seems to be doing fairly well for a service that is not
needed by the majority of people
- why should it be given priority
over for example resources in hospitals to bring down waiting lists
for surgery or specialist appointments? I would prefer that our
government goes for the spending that best improves the health of our
nation - spending money on queues for blood samples, or a perceived
shortage of hospices may not be the most urgent priority, although I
can see how that would appeal to the entitled wealthy . . .
On Fri, 03 Nov 2023 11:49:41 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>A lie.
wrote:
On Fri, 03 Nov 2023 09:54:22 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>wrote:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 20:13:13 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 14:04:37 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>wrote:Hospices are absolutely essential health costs. They provide services that >>>>are
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 10:53:39 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 20:11:06 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>>wrote:
On 1 Nov 2023 02:59:15 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
There has been many column inches about the state of the health system >>>>>>>>>in
NZ.
Not of alot of it praise in them.
Recently I needed to give a blood sample. Picked a site closeby and >>>>>>>>>presented
myself at 8:45am on a week day. There were about 10 car parking spaces >>>>>>>>>with
had great activity as the clients came and left.
As I was getting out of the car a couple of men came out and leant >>>>>>>>>against
their car. They seemed to be waiting. I walked over to the entrance >>>>>>>>>and
slid
the door ajar. First impression it was busy and second was that there >>>>>>>>>was
no
room to swing a dead cat as my Grand Mother would say. One needed to be
careful as there was only enough room to move with care.
The inquiry counter was behind a row of chairs with people waiting on >>>>>>>>>them.
The digtial registration process functioned rather well. Once you >>>>>>>>>could
read
the instructions or if you had forgetten. There was the usual number of
under 5 year olds who got under peoples feet.
Three infirm people (eldery) came in and straight away were offered a >>>>>>>>>seat.
(This Jacina is what being kind means).
I came to the top of the queue and was ushed into a makeshift >>>>>>>>>(temporary)
room
which looked as if it was going to stay for some time.
"Bit busy to-day" I said.
"Yes it always this way"
"Been waiting long?"
"Long enough came my diplomatic reply. You could with some more space" >>>>>>>>>
"And also some more staff"
"Indeed"
The staff were working under not the easiest of conditions and showing >>>>>>>>>great
calmness.
On leaving I noticed a sign offering for the clients to give feedback >>>>>>>>>on
their experience. Really, are they serious, I thought then thought >>>>>>>>>maybe
everyone should suggest that the new Health Minister do a tour of duty >>>>>>>>>doing
what the people they serve experience.
One thing for sure it can be done better and should be better. This is >>>>>>>>>the
front end of the public health system which should be easy to get >>>>>>>>>right,
for
everyone. A few improvements and some little funding is all that is >>>>>>>>>required. This is low hanging fruit.
Gordon - there is a lot of low-handing fruit with Health.
Take end-of-life palliative care:
https://www.hospice.org.nz/
This is an overall view. Now look at a specific hospice organisation: >>>>>>>>
https://www.hospicemn.org.nz/page/about/
Note that Hospice NZ claims that the government funds around 50% of >>>>>>>>the cost of service provision - but for Hospice Mid-North that is just >>>>>>>>over 30% - a situation that have got markedly worse over the last 6 >>>>>>>>years. I am one of many volunteers in a low-population-density region >>>>>>>>that keeps the lights on for an organisation dedicated to end-of-life >>>>>>>>care for those that Health NZ declares to be afflicted with >>>>>>>>life-ending health issues.
So are you advocating that government should give priority to a large >>>>>>>increase in funding for hospices? That would be very expensive - why >>>>>>>do you consider it "low-hanging fruit"?
My post was quite straightforward but I will elucidate further. I am >>>>>>advocating that Hospice funding be returned to the same level of cost >>>>>>reimbursement for each Hospice organisation that the previous >>>>>>National-led governments paid. This is not an increase as such - it >>>>>>is to address cost inflation. This is reasonable given that Hospice >>>>>>organisations are all not-for-profit charities and provide core >>>>>>services that Health NZ would otherwise have to fund in full (or >>>>>>otherwise). The balance of costs is met from continuous fundraising. >>>>>>
I made no comment whatever on urgency or priority and I don't >>>>>>understand how you arrived at any conclusion that I did.
I am not sure if either hospices or a blood collection centre as >>>>>>>described by Gordon are appropriately described as the front end of >>>>>>>the public health system; but it is also unclear just what effect >>>>>>>increasing government funding would achieve in either case.
I am commenting solely on Hospices. This is one that is in trouble: >>>>>>
https://tinyurl.com/bdbkdn57
They are in a relatively good space with 55% of costs covered.
Hospice Mid-North (covers mid-Northland outside Whangarei) fares far >>>>>>worse. As a member I get up-to-date information and the funding from >>>>>>Health NZ covers just 34% of costs - just 3 years ago this was just >>>>>>over 50%. They can continue because they receive significant business >>>>>>sponsorship and community support but both funding sources are >>>>>>stretched to the limit.
You have indicated that you believe funding for Hospices from >>>>>government has fallen in recent years - do you have any evidence of >>>>>that? Secondly, why do you believe that government needs to fund such >>>>>services at all? These are not essential health costs, they are part >>>>>of normal life - in the lifetime of many living today there were no >>>>>hospices. Where is the balance with personal and family >>>>>responsibilities?
unavailable in most hospitals.
An example of that is that hospices specialise in pain management, >>>>something
that hospitals often struggle with. That is not the only example.
If you were to do a tiny bit of research you would know that.
We seem to have drifted away from the initial comment about waiting
times for having a blood sample taken - what sort of management would >>>regard staff being busy as needing more staff so they were not busy?
For hospices, it is really a matter of priorities - the charity
industry seems to be doing fairly well for a service that is not
needed by the majority of people
Patients diagnosed as terminally-ill nearly always used to die in
hospital. This is because their health would ultimately deteriorate
to a point where an Ambulance is called (sometimes at the direction of >>their GP). This changed when cancer-related illnesses became more
common, and the Hospice movement of today grew out of Cancer Society >>operations that dealt with terminally-ill Cancer patients. Patients >>discharged to Hospice would otherwise remain in hospital.
I am advocating that the reduction in real funding of at least some
(if not all) Hospice organisations be returned to previous levels. In
an earlier post I referenced a Herald article on a Hospice
organisation struggling to survive. If they have to close, Health NZ
will have to provide the terminal hospital care that this Hospice
provides.
- why should it be given priority
over for example resources in hospitals to bring down waiting lists
for surgery or specialist appointments? I would prefer that our >>>government goes for the spending that best improves the health of our >>>nation - spending money on queues for blood samples, or a perceived >>>shortage of hospices may not be the most urgent priority, although I
can see how that would appeal to the entitled wealthy . . .
Cheap shot Rich and totally uncalled for. Perhaps you might benefit
from being a lifter/shifter for a Hospice near you - delivering >>(hospital-level) beds to terminally-ill patients as part of in-home
care, then picking them up later. A luxury this is not.
I do understand what you are saying - a friend of mine died a few
years ago from Motor Neuron Disease. He died at home, but needed a
full time carer for the last period. An organisation I am involved in
raised sufficient money for one of the specialist beds that the
organisation dealing with Motor Neuron disease were recommending - I
helped move it for the presentation to its first user . . .
Despite a huge increase in budgets for Health over the last 5 years or
so
, there is still a very high level of need for additionalSo you don't support it - that is OK. But maybe you should do some research before lknocking the essential services provided by hospices.
(over-inflation) funding, and I do not expect the next government (of >whatever parties that are involved in its formation) to see hospices
and staffing levels at medical laboratories collection centres as a
priority for additional funding in real terms.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 21:58:58 -0000 (UTC), TonyAs already stated, hospices are specialists in pain management and other >services. Most hospitals are not as skilled in this essential service. Stop >guessing and do some easy research.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:That does not mean that without a hospice pain management is not
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 20:13:13 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 14:04:37 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>wrote:Hospices are absolutely essential health costs. They provide services that >>>>>are
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 10:53:39 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>>wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 20:11:06 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>>>wrote:
On 1 Nov 2023 02:59:15 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>
There has been many column inches about the state of the health system
in
NZ.
Not of alot of it praise in them.
Recently I needed to give a blood sample. Picked a site closeby and >>>>>>>>>>presented
myself at 8:45am on a week day. There were about 10 car parking spaces
with
had great activity as the clients came and left.
As I was getting out of the car a couple of men came out and leant >>>>>>>>>>against
their car. They seemed to be waiting. I walked over to the entrance >>>>>>>>>>and
slid
the door ajar. First impression it was busy and second was that there >>>>>>>>>>was
no
room to swing a dead cat as my Grand Mother would say. One needed to be
careful as there was only enough room to move with care.
The inquiry counter was behind a row of chairs with people waiting on >>>>>>>>>>them.
The digtial registration process functioned rather well. Once you >>>>>>>>>>could
read
the instructions or if you had forgetten. There was the usual number of
under 5 year olds who got under peoples feet.
Three infirm people (eldery) came in and straight away were offered a >>>>>>>>>>seat.
(This Jacina is what being kind means).
I came to the top of the queue and was ushed into a makeshift >>>>>>>>>>(temporary)
room
which looked as if it was going to stay for some time.
"Bit busy to-day" I said.
"Yes it always this way"
"Been waiting long?"
"Long enough came my diplomatic reply. You could with some more space"
"And also some more staff"
"Indeed"
The staff were working under not the easiest of conditions and showing
great
calmness.
On leaving I noticed a sign offering for the clients to give feedback >>>>>>>>>>on
their experience. Really, are they serious, I thought then thought >>>>>>>>>>maybe
everyone should suggest that the new Health Minister do a tour of duty
doing
what the people they serve experience.
One thing for sure it can be done better and should be better. This is
the
front end of the public health system which should be easy to get >>>>>>>>>>right,
for
everyone. A few improvements and some little funding is all that is >>>>>>>>>>required. This is low hanging fruit.
Gordon - there is a lot of low-handing fruit with Health.
Take end-of-life palliative care:
https://www.hospice.org.nz/
This is an overall view. Now look at a specific hospice organisation: >>>>>>>>>
https://www.hospicemn.org.nz/page/about/
Note that Hospice NZ claims that the government funds around 50% of >>>>>>>>>the cost of service provision - but for Hospice Mid-North that is just >>>>>>>>>over 30% - a situation that have got markedly worse over the last 6 >>>>>>>>>years. I am one of many volunteers in a low-population-density region >>>>>>>>>that keeps the lights on for an organisation dedicated to end-of-life >>>>>>>>>care for those that Health NZ declares to be afflicted with >>>>>>>>>life-ending health issues.
So are you advocating that government should give priority to a large >>>>>>>>increase in funding for hospices? That would be very expensive - why >>>>>>>>do you consider it "low-hanging fruit"?
My post was quite straightforward but I will elucidate further. I am >>>>>>>advocating that Hospice funding be returned to the same level of cost >>>>>>>reimbursement for each Hospice organisation that the previous >>>>>>>National-led governments paid. This is not an increase as such - it >>>>>>>is to address cost inflation. This is reasonable given that Hospice >>>>>>>organisations are all not-for-profit charities and provide core >>>>>>>services that Health NZ would otherwise have to fund in full (or >>>>>>>otherwise). The balance of costs is met from continuous fundraising. >>>>>>>
I made no comment whatever on urgency or priority and I don't >>>>>>>understand how you arrived at any conclusion that I did.
I am not sure if either hospices or a blood collection centre as >>>>>>>>described by Gordon are appropriately described as the front end of >>>>>>>>the public health system; but it is also unclear just what effect >>>>>>>>increasing government funding would achieve in either case.
I am commenting solely on Hospices. This is one that is in trouble: >>>>>>>
https://tinyurl.com/bdbkdn57
They are in a relatively good space with 55% of costs covered.
Hospice Mid-North (covers mid-Northland outside Whangarei) fares far >>>>>>>worse. As a member I get up-to-date information and the funding from >>>>>>>Health NZ covers just 34% of costs - just 3 years ago this was just >>>>>>>over 50%. They can continue because they receive significant business >>>>>>>sponsorship and community support but both funding sources are >>>>>>>stretched to the limit.
You have indicated that you believe funding for Hospices from >>>>>>government has fallen in recent years - do you have any evidence of >>>>>>that? Secondly, why do you believe that government needs to fund such >>>>>>services at all? These are not essential health costs, they are part >>>>>>of normal life - in the lifetime of many living today there were no >>>>>>hospices. Where is the balance with personal and family >>>>>>responsibilities?
unavailable in most hospitals.
An example of that is that hospices specialise in pain management, >>>>>something
that hospitals often struggle with. That is not the only example.
If you were to do a tiny bit of research you would know that.
We seem to have drifted away from the initial comment about waiting >>>>times for having a blood sample taken - what sort of management would >>>>regard staff being busy as needing more staff so they were not busy? >>>Pain management is a hospice speciality - I merely pointed out that your >>>comment was wilfully ignorant.
available through hospitals. This is not an area of medicine that only >>works in a facility specialising in palliative care for those severely
ill and dying.
We do not have hospices available to all communities .Exactly which is why we need more of them and why we need better funding.
. .Irrelevant. It is essential now.
A good try Rich - but you are the one that is drifting now.
For hospices, it is really a matter of priorities - the charity >>>>industry seems to be doing fairly well for a service that is not
needed by the majority of people - why should it be given priority
over for example resources in hospitals to bring down waiting lists
for surgery or specialist appointments? I would prefer that our >>>>government goes for the spending that best improves the health of our >>>>nation - spending money on queues for blood samples, or a perceived >>>>shortage of hospices may not be the most urgent priority, although I >>>>can see how that would appeal to the entitled wealthy . . .
Hospices are essential and if you did the research you would know that. >>>Charities exist primarily because of a need that is not otherwise provided -
hospices are one such vital need.
Hospices did not exist until Mary Potter Hospice was set up in
Wellington in 1979. It was not seen as a vital need by the then
government, or I suspect any subsequent government.
Do you believeDo you?
the new government will allocate any additional funding to hospices in
the first budget?
I note your unsupported opinion; sorry I see otherIrrelevant annoying abuse.
needs in health that are more important; so there is a different >>unsupported opinion for you to consider . . .
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 03 Nov 2023 11:49:41 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>wrote:A lie.
On Fri, 03 Nov 2023 09:54:22 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>wrote:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 20:13:13 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 14:04:37 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>wrote:Hospices are absolutely essential health costs. They provide services that >>>>>are
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 10:53:39 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>>wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 20:11:06 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>>>wrote:
On 1 Nov 2023 02:59:15 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>
There has been many column inches about the state of the health system
in
NZ.
Not of alot of it praise in them.
Recently I needed to give a blood sample. Picked a site closeby and >>>>>>>>>>presented
myself at 8:45am on a week day. There were about 10 car parking spaces
with
had great activity as the clients came and left.
As I was getting out of the car a couple of men came out and leant >>>>>>>>>>against
their car. They seemed to be waiting. I walked over to the entrance >>>>>>>>>>and
slid
the door ajar. First impression it was busy and second was that there >>>>>>>>>>was
no
room to swing a dead cat as my Grand Mother would say. One needed to be
careful as there was only enough room to move with care.
The inquiry counter was behind a row of chairs with people waiting on >>>>>>>>>>them.
The digtial registration process functioned rather well. Once you >>>>>>>>>>could
read
the instructions or if you had forgetten. There was the usual number of
under 5 year olds who got under peoples feet.
Three infirm people (eldery) came in and straight away were offered a >>>>>>>>>>seat.
(This Jacina is what being kind means).
I came to the top of the queue and was ushed into a makeshift >>>>>>>>>>(temporary)
room
which looked as if it was going to stay for some time.
"Bit busy to-day" I said.
"Yes it always this way"
"Been waiting long?"
"Long enough came my diplomatic reply. You could with some more space"
"And also some more staff"
"Indeed"
The staff were working under not the easiest of conditions and showing
great
calmness.
On leaving I noticed a sign offering for the clients to give feedback >>>>>>>>>>on
their experience. Really, are they serious, I thought then thought >>>>>>>>>>maybe
everyone should suggest that the new Health Minister do a tour of duty
doing
what the people they serve experience.
One thing for sure it can be done better and should be better. This is
the
front end of the public health system which should be easy to get >>>>>>>>>>right,
for
everyone. A few improvements and some little funding is all that is >>>>>>>>>>required. This is low hanging fruit.
Gordon - there is a lot of low-handing fruit with Health.
Take end-of-life palliative care:
https://www.hospice.org.nz/
This is an overall view. Now look at a specific hospice organisation: >>>>>>>>>
https://www.hospicemn.org.nz/page/about/
Note that Hospice NZ claims that the government funds around 50% of >>>>>>>>>the cost of service provision - but for Hospice Mid-North that is just >>>>>>>>>over 30% - a situation that have got markedly worse over the last 6 >>>>>>>>>years. I am one of many volunteers in a low-population-density region >>>>>>>>>that keeps the lights on for an organisation dedicated to end-of-life >>>>>>>>>care for those that Health NZ declares to be afflicted with >>>>>>>>>life-ending health issues.
So are you advocating that government should give priority to a large >>>>>>>>increase in funding for hospices? That would be very expensive - why >>>>>>>>do you consider it "low-hanging fruit"?
My post was quite straightforward but I will elucidate further. I am >>>>>>>advocating that Hospice funding be returned to the same level of cost >>>>>>>reimbursement for each Hospice organisation that the previous >>>>>>>National-led governments paid. This is not an increase as such - it >>>>>>>is to address cost inflation. This is reasonable given that Hospice >>>>>>>organisations are all not-for-profit charities and provide core >>>>>>>services that Health NZ would otherwise have to fund in full (or >>>>>>>otherwise). The balance of costs is met from continuous fundraising. >>>>>>>
I made no comment whatever on urgency or priority and I don't >>>>>>>understand how you arrived at any conclusion that I did.
I am not sure if either hospices or a blood collection centre as >>>>>>>>described by Gordon are appropriately described as the front end of >>>>>>>>the public health system; but it is also unclear just what effect >>>>>>>>increasing government funding would achieve in either case.
I am commenting solely on Hospices. This is one that is in trouble: >>>>>>>
https://tinyurl.com/bdbkdn57
They are in a relatively good space with 55% of costs covered.
Hospice Mid-North (covers mid-Northland outside Whangarei) fares far >>>>>>>worse. As a member I get up-to-date information and the funding from >>>>>>>Health NZ covers just 34% of costs - just 3 years ago this was just >>>>>>>over 50%. They can continue because they receive significant business >>>>>>>sponsorship and community support but both funding sources are >>>>>>>stretched to the limit.
You have indicated that you believe funding for Hospices from >>>>>>government has fallen in recent years - do you have any evidence of >>>>>>that? Secondly, why do you believe that government needs to fund such >>>>>>services at all? These are not essential health costs, they are part >>>>>>of normal life - in the lifetime of many living today there were no >>>>>>hospices. Where is the balance with personal and family >>>>>>responsibilities?
unavailable in most hospitals.
An example of that is that hospices specialise in pain management, >>>>>something
that hospitals often struggle with. That is not the only example.
If you were to do a tiny bit of research you would know that.
We seem to have drifted away from the initial comment about waiting >>>>times for having a blood sample taken - what sort of management would >>>>regard staff being busy as needing more staff so they were not busy?
For hospices, it is really a matter of priorities - the charity >>>>industry seems to be doing fairly well for a service that is not
needed by the majority of people
Patients diagnosed as terminally-ill nearly always used to die in >>>hospital. This is because their health would ultimately deteriorate
to a point where an Ambulance is called (sometimes at the direction of >>>their GP). This changed when cancer-related illnesses became more >>>common, and the Hospice movement of today grew out of Cancer Society >>>operations that dealt with terminally-ill Cancer patients. Patients >>>discharged to Hospice would otherwise remain in hospital.
I am advocating that the reduction in real funding of at least some
(if not all) Hospice organisations be returned to previous levels. In
an earlier post I referenced a Herald article on a Hospice
organisation struggling to survive. If they have to close, Health NZ >>>will have to provide the terminal hospital care that this Hospice >>>provides.
- why should it be given priority
over for example resources in hospitals to bring down waiting lists
for surgery or specialist appointments? I would prefer that our >>>>government goes for the spending that best improves the health of our >>>>nation - spending money on queues for blood samples, or a perceived >>>>shortage of hospices may not be the most urgent priority, although I >>>>can see how that would appeal to the entitled wealthy . . .
Cheap shot Rich and totally uncalled for. Perhaps you might benefit
from being a lifter/shifter for a Hospice near you - delivering >>>(hospital-level) beds to terminally-ill patients as part of in-home
care, then picking them up later. A luxury this is not.
I do understand what you are saying - a friend of mine died a few
years ago from Motor Neuron Disease. He died at home, but needed a
full time carer for the last period. An organisation I am involved in >>raised sufficient money for one of the specialist beds that the >>organisation dealing with Motor Neuron disease were recommending - I
helped move it for the presentation to its first user . . .
Despite a huge increase in budgets for Health over the last 5 years or
so
, there is still a very high level of need for additionalSo you don't support it - that is OK. But maybe you should do some research >before lknocking the essential services provided by hospices.
(over-inflation) funding, and I do not expect the next government (of >>whatever parties that are involved in its formation) to see hospices
and staffing levels at medical laboratories collection centres as a >>priority for additional funding in real terms.
Your opinions on this matter were expressed in a very sour way. Anybody who >does not understand the specialist nature of hospices is wilfully ignorant.
On Fri, 03 Nov 2023 09:54:22 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 20:13:13 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 14:04:37 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>wrote:Hospices are absolutely essential health costs. They provide services that are
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 10:53:39 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 20:11:06 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>wrote:
On 1 Nov 2023 02:59:15 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
There has been many column inches about the state of the health system in
NZ.
Not of alot of it praise in them.
Recently I needed to give a blood sample. Picked a site closeby and >>>>>>>>presented
myself at 8:45am on a week day. There were about 10 car parking spaces with
had great activity as the clients came and left.
As I was getting out of the car a couple of men came out and leant against
their car. They seemed to be waiting. I walked over to the entrance and >>>>>>>>slid
the door ajar. First impression it was busy and second was that there was
no
room to swing a dead cat as my Grand Mother would say. One needed to be >>>>>>>>careful as there was only enough room to move with care.
The inquiry counter was behind a row of chairs with people waiting on them.
The digtial registration process functioned rather well. Once you could >>>>>>>>read
the instructions or if you had forgetten. There was the usual number of >>>>>>>>under 5 year olds who got under peoples feet.
Three infirm people (eldery) came in and straight away were offered a seat.
(This Jacina is what being kind means).
I came to the top of the queue and was ushed into a makeshift (temporary)
room
which looked as if it was going to stay for some time.
"Bit busy to-day" I said.
"Yes it always this way"
"Been waiting long?"
"Long enough came my diplomatic reply. You could with some more space" >>>>>>>>
"And also some more staff"
"Indeed"
The staff were working under not the easiest of conditions and showing >>>>>>>>great
calmness.
On leaving I noticed a sign offering for the clients to give feedback on
their experience. Really, are they serious, I thought then thought maybe
everyone should suggest that the new Health Minister do a tour of duty >>>>>>>>doing
what the people they serve experience.
One thing for sure it can be done better and should be better. This is the
front end of the public health system which should be easy to get right,
for
everyone. A few improvements and some little funding is all that is >>>>>>>>required. This is low hanging fruit.
Gordon - there is a lot of low-handing fruit with Health.
Take end-of-life palliative care:
https://www.hospice.org.nz/
This is an overall view. Now look at a specific hospice organisation: >>>>>>>
https://www.hospicemn.org.nz/page/about/
Note that Hospice NZ claims that the government funds around 50% of >>>>>>>the cost of service provision - but for Hospice Mid-North that is just >>>>>>>over 30% - a situation that have got markedly worse over the last 6 >>>>>>>years. I am one of many volunteers in a low-population-density region >>>>>>>that keeps the lights on for an organisation dedicated to end-of-life >>>>>>>care for those that Health NZ declares to be afflicted with >>>>>>>life-ending health issues.
So are you advocating that government should give priority to a large >>>>>>increase in funding for hospices? That would be very expensive - why >>>>>>do you consider it "low-hanging fruit"?
My post was quite straightforward but I will elucidate further. I am >>>>>advocating that Hospice funding be returned to the same level of cost >>>>>reimbursement for each Hospice organisation that the previous >>>>>National-led governments paid. This is not an increase as such - it >>>>>is to address cost inflation. This is reasonable given that Hospice >>>>>organisations are all not-for-profit charities and provide core >>>>>services that Health NZ would otherwise have to fund in full (or >>>>>otherwise). The balance of costs is met from continuous fundraising. >>>>>
I made no comment whatever on urgency or priority and I don't >>>>>understand how you arrived at any conclusion that I did.
I am not sure if either hospices or a blood collection centre as >>>>>>described by Gordon are appropriately described as the front end of >>>>>>the public health system; but it is also unclear just what effect >>>>>>increasing government funding would achieve in either case.
I am commenting solely on Hospices. This is one that is in trouble:
https://tinyurl.com/bdbkdn57
They are in a relatively good space with 55% of costs covered.
Hospice Mid-North (covers mid-Northland outside Whangarei) fares far >>>>>worse. As a member I get up-to-date information and the funding from >>>>>Health NZ covers just 34% of costs - just 3 years ago this was just >>>>>over 50%. They can continue because they receive significant business >>>>>sponsorship and community support but both funding sources are >>>>>stretched to the limit.
You have indicated that you believe funding for Hospices from >>>>government has fallen in recent years - do you have any evidence of >>>>that? Secondly, why do you believe that government needs to fund such >>>>services at all? These are not essential health costs, they are part
of normal life - in the lifetime of many living today there were no >>>>hospices. Where is the balance with personal and family >>>>responsibilities?
unavailable in most hospitals.
An example of that is that hospices specialise in pain management, something >>>that hospitals often struggle with. That is not the only example.
If you were to do a tiny bit of research you would know that.
We seem to have drifted away from the initial comment about waiting
times for having a blood sample taken - what sort of management would >>regard staff being busy as needing more staff so they were not busy?
For hospices, it is really a matter of priorities - the charity
industry seems to be doing fairly well for a service that is not
needed by the majority of people
Patients diagnosed as terminally-ill nearly always used to die in
hospital. This is because their health would ultimately deteriorate
to a point where an Ambulance is called (sometimes at the direction of
their GP). This changed when cancer-related illnesses became more
common, and the Hospice movement of today grew out of Cancer Society >operations that dealt with terminally-ill Cancer patients. Patients >discharged to Hospice would otherwise remain in hospital.
I am advocating that the reduction in real funding of at least some
(if not all) Hospice organisations be returned to previous levels. In
an earlier post I referenced a Herald article on a Hospice
organisation struggling to survive. If they have to close, Health NZ
will have to provide the terminal hospital care that this Hospice
provides.
- why should it be given priority
over for example resources in hospitals to bring down waiting lists
for surgery or specialist appointments? I would prefer that our
government goes for the spending that best improves the health of our >>nation - spending money on queues for blood samples, or a perceived >>shortage of hospices may not be the most urgent priority, although I
can see how that would appeal to the entitled wealthy . . .
Cheap shot Rich and totally uncalled for. Perhaps you might benefit
from being a lifter/shifter for a Hospice near you - delivering >(hospital-level) beds to terminally-ill patients as part of in-home
care, then picking them up later. A luxury this is not.
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 21:58:58 -0000 (UTC), TonyAs already stated, hospices are specialists in pain management and other services. Most hospitals are not as skilled in this essential service. Stop guessing and do some easy research.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:That does not mean that without a hospice pain management is not
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 20:13:13 -0000 (UTC), TonyPain management is a hospice speciality - I merely pointed out that your >>comment was wilfully ignorant.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 14:04:37 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>wrote:Hospices are absolutely essential health costs. They provide services that >>>>are
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 10:53:39 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 20:11:06 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>>wrote:
On 1 Nov 2023 02:59:15 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
There has been many column inches about the state of the health system >>>>>>>>>in
NZ.
Not of alot of it praise in them.
Recently I needed to give a blood sample. Picked a site closeby and >>>>>>>>>presented
myself at 8:45am on a week day. There were about 10 car parking spaces >>>>>>>>>with
had great activity as the clients came and left.
As I was getting out of the car a couple of men came out and leant >>>>>>>>>against
their car. They seemed to be waiting. I walked over to the entrance >>>>>>>>>and
slid
the door ajar. First impression it was busy and second was that there >>>>>>>>>was
no
room to swing a dead cat as my Grand Mother would say. One needed to be
careful as there was only enough room to move with care.
The inquiry counter was behind a row of chairs with people waiting on >>>>>>>>>them.
The digtial registration process functioned rather well. Once you >>>>>>>>>could
read
the instructions or if you had forgetten. There was the usual number of
under 5 year olds who got under peoples feet.
Three infirm people (eldery) came in and straight away were offered a >>>>>>>>>seat.
(This Jacina is what being kind means).
I came to the top of the queue and was ushed into a makeshift >>>>>>>>>(temporary)
room
which looked as if it was going to stay for some time.
"Bit busy to-day" I said.
"Yes it always this way"
"Been waiting long?"
"Long enough came my diplomatic reply. You could with some more space" >>>>>>>>>
"And also some more staff"
"Indeed"
The staff were working under not the easiest of conditions and showing >>>>>>>>>great
calmness.
On leaving I noticed a sign offering for the clients to give feedback >>>>>>>>>on
their experience. Really, are they serious, I thought then thought >>>>>>>>>maybe
everyone should suggest that the new Health Minister do a tour of duty >>>>>>>>>doing
what the people they serve experience.
One thing for sure it can be done better and should be better. This is >>>>>>>>>the
front end of the public health system which should be easy to get >>>>>>>>>right,
for
everyone. A few improvements and some little funding is all that is >>>>>>>>>required. This is low hanging fruit.
Gordon - there is a lot of low-handing fruit with Health.
Take end-of-life palliative care:
https://www.hospice.org.nz/
This is an overall view. Now look at a specific hospice organisation: >>>>>>>>
https://www.hospicemn.org.nz/page/about/
Note that Hospice NZ claims that the government funds around 50% of >>>>>>>>the cost of service provision - but for Hospice Mid-North that is just >>>>>>>>over 30% - a situation that have got markedly worse over the last 6 >>>>>>>>years. I am one of many volunteers in a low-population-density region >>>>>>>>that keeps the lights on for an organisation dedicated to end-of-life >>>>>>>>care for those that Health NZ declares to be afflicted with >>>>>>>>life-ending health issues.
So are you advocating that government should give priority to a large >>>>>>>increase in funding for hospices? That would be very expensive - why >>>>>>>do you consider it "low-hanging fruit"?
My post was quite straightforward but I will elucidate further. I am >>>>>>advocating that Hospice funding be returned to the same level of cost >>>>>>reimbursement for each Hospice organisation that the previous >>>>>>National-led governments paid. This is not an increase as such - it >>>>>>is to address cost inflation. This is reasonable given that Hospice >>>>>>organisations are all not-for-profit charities and provide core >>>>>>services that Health NZ would otherwise have to fund in full (or >>>>>>otherwise). The balance of costs is met from continuous fundraising. >>>>>>
I made no comment whatever on urgency or priority and I don't >>>>>>understand how you arrived at any conclusion that I did.
I am not sure if either hospices or a blood collection centre as >>>>>>>described by Gordon are appropriately described as the front end of >>>>>>>the public health system; but it is also unclear just what effect >>>>>>>increasing government funding would achieve in either case.
I am commenting solely on Hospices. This is one that is in trouble: >>>>>>
https://tinyurl.com/bdbkdn57
They are in a relatively good space with 55% of costs covered.
Hospice Mid-North (covers mid-Northland outside Whangarei) fares far >>>>>>worse. As a member I get up-to-date information and the funding from >>>>>>Health NZ covers just 34% of costs - just 3 years ago this was just >>>>>>over 50%. They can continue because they receive significant business >>>>>>sponsorship and community support but both funding sources are >>>>>>stretched to the limit.
You have indicated that you believe funding for Hospices from >>>>>government has fallen in recent years - do you have any evidence of >>>>>that? Secondly, why do you believe that government needs to fund such >>>>>services at all? These are not essential health costs, they are part >>>>>of normal life - in the lifetime of many living today there were no >>>>>hospices. Where is the balance with personal and family >>>>>responsibilities?
unavailable in most hospitals.
An example of that is that hospices specialise in pain management, >>>>something
that hospitals often struggle with. That is not the only example.
If you were to do a tiny bit of research you would know that.
We seem to have drifted away from the initial comment about waiting
times for having a blood sample taken - what sort of management would >>>regard staff being busy as needing more staff so they were not busy?
available through hospitals. This is not an area of medicine that only
works in a facility specialising in palliative care for those severely
ill and dying.
We do not have hospices available to all communities .Exactly which is why we need more of them and why we need better funding.
. .Irrelevant. It is essential now.
A good try Rich - but you are the one that is drifting now.
For hospices, it is really a matter of priorities - the charity
industry seems to be doing fairly well for a service that is not
needed by the majority of people - why should it be given priority
over for example resources in hospitals to bring down waiting lists
for surgery or specialist appointments? I would prefer that our >>>government goes for the spending that best improves the health of our >>>nation - spending money on queues for blood samples, or a perceived >>>shortage of hospices may not be the most urgent priority, although I
can see how that would appeal to the entitled wealthy . . .
Hospices are essential and if you did the research you would know that. >>Charities exist primarily because of a need that is not otherwise provided - >>hospices are one such vital need.
Hospices did not exist until Mary Potter Hospice was set up in
Wellington in 1979. It was not seen as a vital need by the then
government, or I suspect any subsequent government.
Do you believeDo you?
the new government will allocate any additional funding to hospices in
the first budget?
I note your unsupported opinion; sorry I see otherIrrelevant annoying abuse.
needs in health that are more important; so there is a different
unsupported opinion for you to consider . . .
On Fri, 03 Nov 2023 09:41:01 +1300, Mutley <mutley2000@hotmail.com>That is not a nurse practitioners usual job - they diagnose and treat patients. Phlebotomists normally work in the public clinics and take blood for testing.
wrote:
Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
There has been many column inches about the state of the health system in NZ.
Not of alot of it praise in them.
Recently I needed to give a blood sample. Picked a site closeby and presented
myself at 8:45am on a week day. There were about 10 car parking spaces with >>>had great activity as the clients came and left.
As I was getting out of the car a couple of men came out and leant against >>>their car. They seemed to be waiting. I walked over to the entrance and slid >>>the door ajar. First impression it was busy and second was that there was no >>>room to swing a dead cat as my Grand Mother would say. One needed to be >>>careful as there was only enough room to move with care.
The inquiry counter was behind a row of chairs with people waiting on them. >>>The digtial registration process functioned rather well. Once you could read >>>the instructions or if you had forgetten. There was the usual number of >>>under 5 year olds who got under peoples feet.
Three infirm people (eldery) came in and straight away were offered a seat. >>>(This Jacina is what being kind means).
I came to the top of the queue and was ushed into a makeshift (temporary) >>>room
which looked as if it was going to stay for some time.
"Bit busy to-day" I said.
"Yes it always this way"
"Been waiting long?"
"Long enough came my diplomatic reply. You could with some more space"
"And also some more staff"
"Indeed"
The staff were working under not the easiest of conditions and showing great >>>calmness.
On leaving I noticed a sign offering for the clients to give feedback on >>>their experience. Really, are they serious, I thought then thought maybe >>>everyone should suggest that the new Health Minister do a tour of duty doing >>>what the people they serve experience.
One thing for sure it can be done better and should be better. This is the >>>front end of the public health system which should be easy to get right, for >>>everyone. A few improvements and some little funding is all that is >>>required. This is low hanging fruit.
There's a medlab close to where I live here in Tauranga. It's been
closed since 2020 due to Covid and now lack of staff so if you want
a blood test or the life you have to go into town for it. No sign of
it being opened again.
Perhaps the labs in Bethlehem, 2nd Ave, Cameron Road, Greerton, Mt
Maunganui, etc, etc are enough. I see that Pathab Otumoetai is
temporarily closed, but Otumaetai Beach and Clinical Horizons in
Otumoetai Road may be reasonably close . . . Then of course many
doctors surgeries have a nurse practitioner who can take bloods for
tests . . .
Do you believe the new Government should be doing anything to reduce
your waiting time for blood samples in Tauranga? If so, what?
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 23:33:59 -0000 (UTC), TonyNo more so than you and that is well demonstrated. The differenece is that I do not see opinions as abuse - ever! But you do! Interesting sociopathic behaviour.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 21:58:58 -0000 (UTC), TonyAs already stated, hospices are specialists in pain management and other >>services. Most hospitals are not as skilled in this essential service. Stop >>guessing and do some easy research.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:That does not mean that without a hospice pain management is not >>>available through hospitals. This is not an area of medicine that only >>>works in a facility specialising in palliative care for those severely >>>ill and dying.
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 20:13:13 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 14:04:37 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>>wrote:Hospices are absolutely essential health costs. They provide services >>>>>>that
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 10:53:39 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>>>wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 20:11:06 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>>>>wrote:
On 1 Nov 2023 02:59:15 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>
There has been many column inches about the state of the health >>>>>>>>>>>system
in
NZ.
Not of alot of it praise in them.
Recently I needed to give a blood sample. Picked a site closeby and >>>>>>>>>>>presented
myself at 8:45am on a week day. There were about 10 car parking >>>>>>>>>>>spaces
with
had great activity as the clients came and left.
As I was getting out of the car a couple of men came out and leant >>>>>>>>>>>against
their car. They seemed to be waiting. I walked over to the entrance >>>>>>>>>>>and
slid
the door ajar. First impression it was busy and second was that >>>>>>>>>>>there
was
no
room to swing a dead cat as my Grand Mother would say. One needed to >>>>>>>>>>>be
careful as there was only enough room to move with care.
The inquiry counter was behind a row of chairs with people waiting >>>>>>>>>>>on
them.
The digtial registration process functioned rather well. Once you >>>>>>>>>>>could
read
the instructions or if you had forgetten. There was the usual number >>>>>>>>>>>of
under 5 year olds who got under peoples feet.
Three infirm people (eldery) came in and straight away were offered >>>>>>>>>>>a
seat.
(This Jacina is what being kind means).
I came to the top of the queue and was ushed into a makeshift >>>>>>>>>>>(temporary)
room
which looked as if it was going to stay for some time.
"Bit busy to-day" I said.
"Yes it always this way"
"Been waiting long?"
"Long enough came my diplomatic reply. You could with some more >>>>>>>>>>>space"
"And also some more staff"
"Indeed"
The staff were working under not the easiest of conditions and >>>>>>>>>>>showing
great
calmness.
On leaving I noticed a sign offering for the clients to give >>>>>>>>>>>feedback
on
their experience. Really, are they serious, I thought then thought >>>>>>>>>>>maybe
everyone should suggest that the new Health Minister do a tour of >>>>>>>>>>>duty
doing
what the people they serve experience.
One thing for sure it can be done better and should be better. This >>>>>>>>>>>is
the
front end of the public health system which should be easy to get >>>>>>>>>>>right,
for
everyone. A few improvements and some little funding is all that is >>>>>>>>>>>required. This is low hanging fruit.
Gordon - there is a lot of low-handing fruit with Health.
Take end-of-life palliative care:
https://www.hospice.org.nz/
This is an overall view. Now look at a specific hospice organisation:
https://www.hospicemn.org.nz/page/about/
Note that Hospice NZ claims that the government funds around 50% of >>>>>>>>>>the cost of service provision - but for Hospice Mid-North that is just
over 30% - a situation that have got markedly worse over the last 6 >>>>>>>>>>years. I am one of many volunteers in a low-population-density region
that keeps the lights on for an organisation dedicated to end-of-life >>>>>>>>>>care for those that Health NZ declares to be afflicted with >>>>>>>>>>life-ending health issues.
So are you advocating that government should give priority to a large >>>>>>>>>increase in funding for hospices? That would be very expensive - why >>>>>>>>>do you consider it "low-hanging fruit"?
My post was quite straightforward but I will elucidate further. I am >>>>>>>>advocating that Hospice funding be returned to the same level of cost >>>>>>>>reimbursement for each Hospice organisation that the previous >>>>>>>>National-led governments paid. This is not an increase as such - it >>>>>>>>is to address cost inflation. This is reasonable given that Hospice >>>>>>>>organisations are all not-for-profit charities and provide core >>>>>>>>services that Health NZ would otherwise have to fund in full (or >>>>>>>>otherwise). The balance of costs is met from continuous fundraising. >>>>>>>>
I made no comment whatever on urgency or priority and I don't >>>>>>>>understand how you arrived at any conclusion that I did.
I am not sure if either hospices or a blood collection centre as >>>>>>>>>described by Gordon are appropriately described as the front end of >>>>>>>>>the public health system; but it is also unclear just what effect >>>>>>>>>increasing government funding would achieve in either case.
I am commenting solely on Hospices. This is one that is in trouble: >>>>>>>>
https://tinyurl.com/bdbkdn57
They are in a relatively good space with 55% of costs covered.
Hospice Mid-North (covers mid-Northland outside Whangarei) fares far >>>>>>>>worse. As a member I get up-to-date information and the funding from >>>>>>>>Health NZ covers just 34% of costs - just 3 years ago this was just >>>>>>>>over 50%. They can continue because they receive significant business >>>>>>>>sponsorship and community support but both funding sources are >>>>>>>>stretched to the limit.
You have indicated that you believe funding for Hospices from >>>>>>>government has fallen in recent years - do you have any evidence of >>>>>>>that? Secondly, why do you believe that government needs to fund such >>>>>>>services at all? These are not essential health costs, they are part >>>>>>>of normal life - in the lifetime of many living today there were no >>>>>>>hospices. Where is the balance with personal and family >>>>>>>responsibilities?
are
unavailable in most hospitals.
An example of that is that hospices specialise in pain management, >>>>>>something
that hospitals often struggle with. That is not the only example. >>>>>>If you were to do a tiny bit of research you would know that.
We seem to have drifted away from the initial comment about waiting >>>>>times for having a blood sample taken - what sort of management would >>>>>regard staff being busy as needing more staff so they were not busy? >>>>Pain management is a hospice speciality - I merely pointed out that your >>>>comment was wilfully ignorant.
We do not have hospices available to all communities .Exactly which is why we need more of them and why we need better funding. >>>. .
Irrelevant. It is essential now.
A good try Rich - but you are the one that is drifting now.
For hospices, it is really a matter of priorities - the charity >>>>>industry seems to be doing fairly well for a service that is not >>>>>needed by the majority of people - why should it be given priority >>>>>over for example resources in hospitals to bring down waiting lists >>>>>for surgery or specialist appointments? I would prefer that our >>>>>government goes for the spending that best improves the health of our >>>>>nation - spending money on queues for blood samples, or a perceived >>>>>shortage of hospices may not be the most urgent priority, although I >>>>>can see how that would appeal to the entitled wealthy . . .
Hospices are essential and if you did the research you would know that. >>>>Charities exist primarily because of a need that is not otherwise provided >>>>-
hospices are one such vital need.
Hospices did not exist until Mary Potter Hospice was set up in
Wellington in 1979. It was not seen as a vital need by the then >>>government, or I suspect any subsequent government.
Do you believeDo you?
the new government will allocate any additional funding to hospices in >>>the first budget?
I note your unsupported opinion; sorry I see otherIrrelevant annoying abuse.
needs in health that are more important; so there is a different >>>unsupported opinion for you to consider . . .
If you see unsupported personal opinions as abuse, why do you do it so
often?
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 23:41:15 -0000 (UTC), TonyIrrelevant, and you have no idea what my opinion on that matter is. So you are still guessing.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 03 Nov 2023 11:49:41 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>wrote:A lie.
On Fri, 03 Nov 2023 09:54:22 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>wrote:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 20:13:13 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 14:04:37 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>>wrote:Hospices are absolutely essential health costs. They provide services >>>>>>that
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 10:53:39 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>>>wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 20:11:06 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>>>>wrote:
On 1 Nov 2023 02:59:15 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>
There has been many column inches about the state of the health >>>>>>>>>>>system
in
NZ.
Not of alot of it praise in them.
Recently I needed to give a blood sample. Picked a site closeby and >>>>>>>>>>>presented
myself at 8:45am on a week day. There were about 10 car parking >>>>>>>>>>>spaces
with
had great activity as the clients came and left.
As I was getting out of the car a couple of men came out and leant >>>>>>>>>>>against
their car. They seemed to be waiting. I walked over to the entrance >>>>>>>>>>>and
slid
the door ajar. First impression it was busy and second was that >>>>>>>>>>>there
was
no
room to swing a dead cat as my Grand Mother would say. One needed to >>>>>>>>>>>be
careful as there was only enough room to move with care.
The inquiry counter was behind a row of chairs with people waiting >>>>>>>>>>>on
them.
The digtial registration process functioned rather well. Once you >>>>>>>>>>>could
read
the instructions or if you had forgetten. There was the usual number >>>>>>>>>>>of
under 5 year olds who got under peoples feet.
Three infirm people (eldery) came in and straight away were offered >>>>>>>>>>>a
seat.
(This Jacina is what being kind means).
I came to the top of the queue and was ushed into a makeshift >>>>>>>>>>>(temporary)
room
which looked as if it was going to stay for some time.
"Bit busy to-day" I said.
"Yes it always this way"
"Been waiting long?"
"Long enough came my diplomatic reply. You could with some more >>>>>>>>>>>space"
"And also some more staff"
"Indeed"
The staff were working under not the easiest of conditions and >>>>>>>>>>>showing
great
calmness.
On leaving I noticed a sign offering for the clients to give >>>>>>>>>>>feedback
on
their experience. Really, are they serious, I thought then thought >>>>>>>>>>>maybe
everyone should suggest that the new Health Minister do a tour of >>>>>>>>>>>duty
doing
what the people they serve experience.
One thing for sure it can be done better and should be better. This >>>>>>>>>>>is
the
front end of the public health system which should be easy to get >>>>>>>>>>>right,
for
everyone. A few improvements and some little funding is all that is >>>>>>>>>>>required. This is low hanging fruit.
Gordon - there is a lot of low-handing fruit with Health.
Take end-of-life palliative care:
https://www.hospice.org.nz/
This is an overall view. Now look at a specific hospice organisation:
https://www.hospicemn.org.nz/page/about/
Note that Hospice NZ claims that the government funds around 50% of >>>>>>>>>>the cost of service provision - but for Hospice Mid-North that is just
over 30% - a situation that have got markedly worse over the last 6 >>>>>>>>>>years. I am one of many volunteers in a low-population-density region
that keeps the lights on for an organisation dedicated to end-of-life >>>>>>>>>>care for those that Health NZ declares to be afflicted with >>>>>>>>>>life-ending health issues.
So are you advocating that government should give priority to a large >>>>>>>>>increase in funding for hospices? That would be very expensive - why >>>>>>>>>do you consider it "low-hanging fruit"?
My post was quite straightforward but I will elucidate further. I am >>>>>>>>advocating that Hospice funding be returned to the same level of cost >>>>>>>>reimbursement for each Hospice organisation that the previous >>>>>>>>National-led governments paid. This is not an increase as such - it >>>>>>>>is to address cost inflation. This is reasonable given that Hospice >>>>>>>>organisations are all not-for-profit charities and provide core >>>>>>>>services that Health NZ would otherwise have to fund in full (or >>>>>>>>otherwise). The balance of costs is met from continuous fundraising. >>>>>>>>
I made no comment whatever on urgency or priority and I don't >>>>>>>>understand how you arrived at any conclusion that I did.
I am not sure if either hospices or a blood collection centre as >>>>>>>>>described by Gordon are appropriately described as the front end of >>>>>>>>>the public health system; but it is also unclear just what effect >>>>>>>>>increasing government funding would achieve in either case.
I am commenting solely on Hospices. This is one that is in trouble: >>>>>>>>
https://tinyurl.com/bdbkdn57
They are in a relatively good space with 55% of costs covered.
Hospice Mid-North (covers mid-Northland outside Whangarei) fares far >>>>>>>>worse. As a member I get up-to-date information and the funding from >>>>>>>>Health NZ covers just 34% of costs - just 3 years ago this was just >>>>>>>>over 50%. They can continue because they receive significant business >>>>>>>>sponsorship and community support but both funding sources are >>>>>>>>stretched to the limit.
You have indicated that you believe funding for Hospices from >>>>>>>government has fallen in recent years - do you have any evidence of >>>>>>>that? Secondly, why do you believe that government needs to fund such >>>>>>>services at all? These are not essential health costs, they are part >>>>>>>of normal life - in the lifetime of many living today there were no >>>>>>>hospices. Where is the balance with personal and family >>>>>>>responsibilities?
are
unavailable in most hospitals.
An example of that is that hospices specialise in pain management, >>>>>>something
that hospitals often struggle with. That is not the only example. >>>>>>If you were to do a tiny bit of research you would know that.
We seem to have drifted away from the initial comment about waiting >>>>>times for having a blood sample taken - what sort of management would >>>>>regard staff being busy as needing more staff so they were not busy?
For hospices, it is really a matter of priorities - the charity >>>>>industry seems to be doing fairly well for a service that is not >>>>>needed by the majority of people
Patients diagnosed as terminally-ill nearly always used to die in >>>>hospital. This is because their health would ultimately deteriorate
to a point where an Ambulance is called (sometimes at the direction of >>>>their GP). This changed when cancer-related illnesses became more >>>>common, and the Hospice movement of today grew out of Cancer Society >>>>operations that dealt with terminally-ill Cancer patients. Patients >>>>discharged to Hospice would otherwise remain in hospital.
I am advocating that the reduction in real funding of at least some
(if not all) Hospice organisations be returned to previous levels. In >>>>an earlier post I referenced a Herald article on a Hospice
organisation struggling to survive. If they have to close, Health NZ >>>>will have to provide the terminal hospital care that this Hospice >>>>provides.
- why should it be given priority
over for example resources in hospitals to bring down waiting lists >>>>>for surgery or specialist appointments? I would prefer that our >>>>>government goes for the spending that best improves the health of our >>>>>nation - spending money on queues for blood samples, or a perceived >>>>>shortage of hospices may not be the most urgent priority, although I >>>>>can see how that would appeal to the entitled wealthy . . .
Cheap shot Rich and totally uncalled for. Perhaps you might benefit >>>>from being a lifter/shifter for a Hospice near you - delivering >>>>(hospital-level) beds to terminally-ill patients as part of in-home >>>>care, then picking them up later. A luxury this is not.
I do understand what you are saying - a friend of mine died a few
years ago from Motor Neuron Disease. He died at home, but needed a
full time carer for the last period. An organisation I am involved in >>>raised sufficient money for one of the specialist beds that the >>>organisation dealing with Motor Neuron disease were recommending - I >>>helped move it for the presentation to its first user . . .
Despite a huge increase in budgets for Health over the last 5 years or
so
, there is still a very high level of need for additional >>>(over-inflation) funding, and I do not expect the next government (of >>>whatever parties that are involved in its formation) to see hospicesSo you don't support it - that is OK. But maybe you should do some research >>before lknocking the essential services provided by hospices.
and staffing levels at medical laboratories collection centres as a >>>priority for additional funding in real terms.
Your opinions on this matter were expressed in a very sour way. Anybody who >>does not understand the specialist nature of hospices is wilfully ignorant.
I note that you do not disagree with my perception that any government
coming in now is unlikely to allocate much if anything to an increase
in real funding to either laboratory collection sites or to hospices.
The do try to reflect the broad thrust of public opinion, or at least
that of their own supporters . . .
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 23:33:59 -0000 (UTC), TonyNo more so than you and that is well demonstrated. The differenece is that I do
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 21:58:58 -0000 (UTC), TonyAs already stated, hospices are specialists in pain management and other >>>services. Most hospitals are not as skilled in this essential service. Stop >>>guessing and do some easy research.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:That does not mean that without a hospice pain management is not >>>>available through hospitals. This is not an area of medicine that only >>>>works in a facility specialising in palliative care for those severely >>>>ill and dying.
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 20:13:13 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 14:04:37 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>>>wrote:Hospices are absolutely essential health costs. They provide services >>>>>>>that
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 10:53:39 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>>>>wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 20:11:06 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>>>>>wrote:
On 1 Nov 2023 02:59:15 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>
There has been many column inches about the state of the health >>>>>>>>>>>>system
in
NZ.
Not of alot of it praise in them.
Recently I needed to give a blood sample. Picked a site closeby and >>>>>>>>>>>>presented
myself at 8:45am on a week day. There were about 10 car parking >>>>>>>>>>>>spaces
with
had great activity as the clients came and left.
As I was getting out of the car a couple of men came out and leant >>>>>>>>>>>>against
their car. They seemed to be waiting. I walked over to the entrance >>>>>>>>>>>>and
slid
the door ajar. First impression it was busy and second was that >>>>>>>>>>>>there
was
no
room to swing a dead cat as my Grand Mother would say. One needed to
be
careful as there was only enough room to move with care. >>>>>>>>>>>>
The inquiry counter was behind a row of chairs with people waiting >>>>>>>>>>>>on
them.
The digtial registration process functioned rather well. Once you >>>>>>>>>>>>could
read
the instructions or if you had forgetten. There was the usual number
of
under 5 year olds who got under peoples feet.
Three infirm people (eldery) came in and straight away were offered >>>>>>>>>>>>a
seat.
(This Jacina is what being kind means).
I came to the top of the queue and was ushed into a makeshift >>>>>>>>>>>>(temporary)
room
which looked as if it was going to stay for some time.
"Bit busy to-day" I said.
"Yes it always this way"
"Been waiting long?"
"Long enough came my diplomatic reply. You could with some more >>>>>>>>>>>>space"
"And also some more staff"
"Indeed"
The staff were working under not the easiest of conditions and >>>>>>>>>>>>showing
great
calmness.
On leaving I noticed a sign offering for the clients to give >>>>>>>>>>>>feedback
on
their experience. Really, are they serious, I thought then thought >>>>>>>>>>>>maybe
everyone should suggest that the new Health Minister do a tour of >>>>>>>>>>>>duty
doing
what the people they serve experience.
One thing for sure it can be done better and should be better. This >>>>>>>>>>>>is
the
front end of the public health system which should be easy to get >>>>>>>>>>>>right,
for
everyone. A few improvements and some little funding is all that is >>>>>>>>>>>>required. This is low hanging fruit.
Gordon - there is a lot of low-handing fruit with Health. >>>>>>>>>>>
Take end-of-life palliative care:
https://www.hospice.org.nz/
This is an overall view. Now look at a specific hospice organisation:
https://www.hospicemn.org.nz/page/about/
Note that Hospice NZ claims that the government funds around 50% of >>>>>>>>>>>the cost of service provision - but for Hospice Mid-North that is just
over 30% - a situation that have got markedly worse over the last 6 >>>>>>>>>>>years. I am one of many volunteers in a low-population-density region
that keeps the lights on for an organisation dedicated to end-of-life
care for those that Health NZ declares to be afflicted with >>>>>>>>>>>life-ending health issues.
So are you advocating that government should give priority to a large >>>>>>>>>>increase in funding for hospices? That would be very expensive - why >>>>>>>>>>do you consider it "low-hanging fruit"?
My post was quite straightforward but I will elucidate further. I am >>>>>>>>>advocating that Hospice funding be returned to the same level of cost >>>>>>>>>reimbursement for each Hospice organisation that the previous >>>>>>>>>National-led governments paid. This is not an increase as such - it >>>>>>>>>is to address cost inflation. This is reasonable given that Hospice >>>>>>>>>organisations are all not-for-profit charities and provide core >>>>>>>>>services that Health NZ would otherwise have to fund in full (or >>>>>>>>>otherwise). The balance of costs is met from continuous fundraising. >>>>>>>>>
I made no comment whatever on urgency or priority and I don't >>>>>>>>>understand how you arrived at any conclusion that I did.
I am not sure if either hospices or a blood collection centre as >>>>>>>>>>described by Gordon are appropriately described as the front end of >>>>>>>>>>the public health system; but it is also unclear just what effect >>>>>>>>>>increasing government funding would achieve in either case.
I am commenting solely on Hospices. This is one that is in trouble: >>>>>>>>>
https://tinyurl.com/bdbkdn57
They are in a relatively good space with 55% of costs covered. >>>>>>>>>
Hospice Mid-North (covers mid-Northland outside Whangarei) fares far >>>>>>>>>worse. As a member I get up-to-date information and the funding from >>>>>>>>>Health NZ covers just 34% of costs - just 3 years ago this was just >>>>>>>>>over 50%. They can continue because they receive significant business >>>>>>>>>sponsorship and community support but both funding sources are >>>>>>>>>stretched to the limit.
You have indicated that you believe funding for Hospices from >>>>>>>>government has fallen in recent years - do you have any evidence of >>>>>>>>that? Secondly, why do you believe that government needs to fund such >>>>>>>>services at all? These are not essential health costs, they are part >>>>>>>>of normal life - in the lifetime of many living today there were no >>>>>>>>hospices. Where is the balance with personal and family >>>>>>>>responsibilities?
are
unavailable in most hospitals.
An example of that is that hospices specialise in pain management, >>>>>>>something
that hospitals often struggle with. That is not the only example. >>>>>>>If you were to do a tiny bit of research you would know that.
We seem to have drifted away from the initial comment about waiting >>>>>>times for having a blood sample taken - what sort of management would >>>>>>regard staff being busy as needing more staff so they were not busy? >>>>>Pain management is a hospice speciality - I merely pointed out that your >>>>>comment was wilfully ignorant.
We do not have hospices available to all communities .Exactly which is why we need more of them and why we need better funding. >>>>. .
Irrelevant. It is essential now.
A good try Rich - but you are the one that is drifting now.
For hospices, it is really a matter of priorities - the charity >>>>>>industry seems to be doing fairly well for a service that is not >>>>>>needed by the majority of people - why should it be given priority >>>>>>over for example resources in hospitals to bring down waiting lists >>>>>>for surgery or specialist appointments? I would prefer that our >>>>>>government goes for the spending that best improves the health of our >>>>>>nation - spending money on queues for blood samples, or a perceived >>>>>>shortage of hospices may not be the most urgent priority, although I >>>>>>can see how that would appeal to the entitled wealthy . . .
Hospices are essential and if you did the research you would know that. >>>>>Charities exist primarily because of a need that is not otherwise provided >>>>>-
hospices are one such vital need.
Hospices did not exist until Mary Potter Hospice was set up in >>>>Wellington in 1979. It was not seen as a vital need by the then >>>>government, or I suspect any subsequent government.
Do you believeDo you?
the new government will allocate any additional funding to hospices in >>>>the first budget?
I note your unsupported opinion; sorry I see otherIrrelevant annoying abuse.
needs in health that are more important; so there is a different >>>>unsupported opinion for you to consider . . .
If you see unsupported personal opinions as abuse, why do you do it so >>often?
not see opinions as abuse - ever! But you do! Interesting sociopathic behaviour.
On Fri, 3 Nov 2023 00:26:17 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 23:33:59 -0000 (UTC), TonyNo more so than you and that is well demonstrated. The differenece is that I do
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 21:58:58 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:As already stated, hospices are specialists in pain management and other >>>>services. Most hospitals are not as skilled in this essential service. Stop >>>>guessing and do some easy research.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:That does not mean that without a hospice pain management is not >>>>>available through hospitals. This is not an area of medicine that only >>>>>works in a facility specialising in palliative care for those severely >>>>>ill and dying.
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 20:13:13 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 14:04:37 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>>>>wrote:Hospices are absolutely essential health costs. They provide services >>>>>>>>that
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 10:53:39 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 20:11:06 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:
On 1 Nov 2023 02:59:15 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>
There has been many column inches about the state of the health >>>>>>>>>>>>>system
in
NZ.
Not of alot of it praise in them.
Recently I needed to give a blood sample. Picked a site closeby and
presented
myself at 8:45am on a week day. There were about 10 car parking >>>>>>>>>>>>>spaces
with
had great activity as the clients came and left.
As I was getting out of the car a couple of men came out and leant >>>>>>>>>>>>>against
their car. They seemed to be waiting. I walked over to the entrance
and
slid
the door ajar. First impression it was busy and second was that >>>>>>>>>>>>>there
was
no
room to swing a dead cat as my Grand Mother would say. One needed to
be
careful as there was only enough room to move with care. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
The inquiry counter was behind a row of chairs with people waiting >>>>>>>>>>>>>on
them.
The digtial registration process functioned rather well. Once you >>>>>>>>>>>>>could
read
the instructions or if you had forgetten. There was the usual number
of
under 5 year olds who got under peoples feet.
Three infirm people (eldery) came in and straight away were offered
a
seat.
(This Jacina is what being kind means).
I came to the top of the queue and was ushed into a makeshift >>>>>>>>>>>>>(temporary)
room
which looked as if it was going to stay for some time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
"Bit busy to-day" I said.
"Yes it always this way"
"Been waiting long?"
"Long enough came my diplomatic reply. You could with some more >>>>>>>>>>>>>space"
"And also some more staff"
"Indeed"
The staff were working under not the easiest of conditions and >>>>>>>>>>>>>showing
great
calmness.
On leaving I noticed a sign offering for the clients to give >>>>>>>>>>>>>feedback
on
their experience. Really, are they serious, I thought then thought >>>>>>>>>>>>>maybe
everyone should suggest that the new Health Minister do a tour of >>>>>>>>>>>>>duty
doing
what the people they serve experience.
One thing for sure it can be done better and should be better. This
is
the
front end of the public health system which should be easy to get >>>>>>>>>>>>>right,
for
everyone. A few improvements and some little funding is all that is
required. This is low hanging fruit.
Gordon - there is a lot of low-handing fruit with Health. >>>>>>>>>>>>
Take end-of-life palliative care:
https://www.hospice.org.nz/
This is an overall view. Now look at a specific hospice organisation:
https://www.hospicemn.org.nz/page/about/
Note that Hospice NZ claims that the government funds around 50% of >>>>>>>>>>>>the cost of service provision - but for Hospice Mid-North that is just
over 30% - a situation that have got markedly worse over the last 6 >>>>>>>>>>>>years. I am one of many volunteers in a low-population-density region
that keeps the lights on for an organisation dedicated to end-of-life
care for those that Health NZ declares to be afflicted with >>>>>>>>>>>>life-ending health issues.
So are you advocating that government should give priority to a large
increase in funding for hospices? That would be very expensive - why >>>>>>>>>>>do you consider it "low-hanging fruit"?
My post was quite straightforward but I will elucidate further. I am >>>>>>>>>>advocating that Hospice funding be returned to the same level of cost >>>>>>>>>>reimbursement for each Hospice organisation that the previous >>>>>>>>>>National-led governments paid. This is not an increase as such - it >>>>>>>>>>is to address cost inflation. This is reasonable given that Hospice >>>>>>>>>>organisations are all not-for-profit charities and provide core >>>>>>>>>>services that Health NZ would otherwise have to fund in full (or >>>>>>>>>>otherwise). The balance of costs is met from continuous fundraising. >>>>>>>>>>
I made no comment whatever on urgency or priority and I don't >>>>>>>>>>understand how you arrived at any conclusion that I did.
I am commenting solely on Hospices. This is one that is in trouble: >>>>>>>>>>
I am not sure if either hospices or a blood collection centre as >>>>>>>>>>>described by Gordon are appropriately described as the front end of >>>>>>>>>>>the public health system; but it is also unclear just what effect >>>>>>>>>>>increasing government funding would achieve in either case. >>>>>>>>>>
https://tinyurl.com/bdbkdn57
They are in a relatively good space with 55% of costs covered. >>>>>>>>>>
Hospice Mid-North (covers mid-Northland outside Whangarei) fares far >>>>>>>>>>worse. As a member I get up-to-date information and the funding from >>>>>>>>>>Health NZ covers just 34% of costs - just 3 years ago this was just >>>>>>>>>>over 50%. They can continue because they receive significant business
sponsorship and community support but both funding sources are >>>>>>>>>>stretched to the limit.
You have indicated that you believe funding for Hospices from >>>>>>>>>government has fallen in recent years - do you have any evidence of >>>>>>>>>that? Secondly, why do you believe that government needs to fund such >>>>>>>>>services at all? These are not essential health costs, they are part >>>>>>>>>of normal life - in the lifetime of many living today there were no >>>>>>>>>hospices. Where is the balance with personal and family >>>>>>>>>responsibilities?
are
unavailable in most hospitals.
An example of that is that hospices specialise in pain management, >>>>>>>>something
that hospitals often struggle with. That is not the only example. >>>>>>>>If you were to do a tiny bit of research you would know that.
We seem to have drifted away from the initial comment about waiting >>>>>>>times for having a blood sample taken - what sort of management would >>>>>>>regard staff being busy as needing more staff so they were not busy? >>>>>>Pain management is a hospice speciality - I merely pointed out that your >>>>>>comment was wilfully ignorant.
We do not have hospices available to all communities .Exactly which is why we need more of them and why we need better funding. >>>>>. .
Irrelevant. It is essential now.
A good try Rich - but you are the one that is drifting now. >>>>>>Hospices are essential and if you did the research you would know that. >>>>>>Charities exist primarily because of a need that is not otherwise provided
For hospices, it is really a matter of priorities - the charity >>>>>>>industry seems to be doing fairly well for a service that is not >>>>>>>needed by the majority of people - why should it be given priority >>>>>>>over for example resources in hospitals to bring down waiting lists >>>>>>>for surgery or specialist appointments? I would prefer that our >>>>>>>government goes for the spending that best improves the health of our >>>>>>>nation - spending money on queues for blood samples, or a perceived >>>>>>>shortage of hospices may not be the most urgent priority, although I >>>>>>>can see how that would appeal to the entitled wealthy . . .
-
hospices are one such vital need.
Hospices did not exist until Mary Potter Hospice was set up in >>>>>Wellington in 1979. It was not seen as a vital need by the then >>>>>government, or I suspect any subsequent government.
Do you believeDo you?
the new government will allocate any additional funding to hospices in >>>>>the first budget?
I note your unsupported opinion; sorry I see otherIrrelevant annoying abuse.
needs in health that are more important; so there is a different >>>>>unsupported opinion for you to consider . . .
If you see unsupported personal opinions as abuse, why do you do it so >>>often?
not see opinions as abuse - ever! But you do! Interesting sociopathic behaviour.
The whole thread is about unsupported opinions. Crash believed that
the government should increase the amount it pays med labs for their >collection services.
These are private companies who have tendered to
provide services; there is often more than one company providing those >services in larger locations - being busy is a sign of success - and
why there are conditions relating to work breaks in employee
agreements. Why would a government interfere in the workings of a
competitive market to ensure that the companies are even more
profitable?
Then Crash moved us to the issue of whether other private
organisations - in this case Hospices - should receive more government
money. They are of course also private organisations, albeit set up as >charitable trusts. I well remember the fund-raising for the Mary
Potter Hospice when it was first being set up. They had very
successful "High Society" events such as Balls with gowns and gloves
for the ladies and white tie and tails for the men - and lists of
substantial donors. From the Charities Commission website, there are
three trusts that comprise the organisation - with net assets as
follows:
Hospice Foundation $12,873, 319
Hospice Forever Foundation (also called Capital Endowment Trust:
$9,341, 148
Hospice Apartments Ltd $11,115,042
Giving a total capital value of $33,329,509
I suspect values of land and building may be at book value, but I have
not bothered to investigate.
I can confirm that it is a lovely place to provide the excellent
services that they do. Like a private hospital, it does not have the
harried, busy and short of space feel of a public hospital; Staff are
not perpetually busy like the staff at a public hospital; they are
well equipped, with staff that are well paid and have time to talk to >patients, in well furnished and quieter work conditions than a ward in
a public hospital, which is of course where many do die.
Now not all hospices are as well set up as Mary Potter Hospice; but
ask yourself - is putting government money into a hospice as urgent as >putting a bit more into enabling a public hospital to provide Tom, a
74 year old man who lives alone and has not been able to get to the
shops himself due to the need for a hip or knee operation that he has
been waiting six months to have? Is it as urgent as ensuring that a
single mother with small children has to rely on a food bank to
support her family?
Sorry, subsidising private organisations like hospices and private med
lab companies just does not seem to me to be the most urgent priority
for government funding, but you may have another unsupported opinion
to the contrary . . . Maybe the Health minister, whoever the next one
is, is not the only person that needs to get out more . . .
On Fri, 3 Nov 2023 00:26:17 -0000 (UTC), TonyHospices provide something that hospitals cannot. Hospitals often refer patients to hospices. Clearly the current funding model fails to provide an essential service. So the money comes from charitable works and volunteers.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 23:33:59 -0000 (UTC), TonyNo more so than you and that is well demonstrated. The differenece is that I >>do
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 21:58:58 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:As already stated, hospices are specialists in pain management and other >>>>services. Most hospitals are not as skilled in this essential service. Stop >>>>guessing and do some easy research.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:That does not mean that without a hospice pain management is not >>>>>available through hospitals. This is not an area of medicine that only >>>>>works in a facility specialising in palliative care for those severely >>>>>ill and dying.
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 20:13:13 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 14:04:37 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>>>>wrote:Hospices are absolutely essential health costs. They provide services >>>>>>>>that
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 10:53:39 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 20:11:06 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:
On 1 Nov 2023 02:59:15 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>
There has been many column inches about the state of the health >>>>>>>>>>>>>system
in
NZ.
Not of alot of it praise in them.
Recently I needed to give a blood sample. Picked a site closeby >>>>>>>>>>>>>and
presented
myself at 8:45am on a week day. There were about 10 car parking >>>>>>>>>>>>>spaces
with
had great activity as the clients came and left.
As I was getting out of the car a couple of men came out and leant >>>>>>>>>>>>>against
their car. They seemed to be waiting. I walked over to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>entrance
and
slid
the door ajar. First impression it was busy and second was that >>>>>>>>>>>>>there
was
no
room to swing a dead cat as my Grand Mother would say. One needed >>>>>>>>>>>>>to
be
careful as there was only enough room to move with care. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
The inquiry counter was behind a row of chairs with people waiting >>>>>>>>>>>>>on
them.
The digtial registration process functioned rather well. Once you >>>>>>>>>>>>>could
read
the instructions or if you had forgetten. There was the usual >>>>>>>>>>>>>number
of
under 5 year olds who got under peoples feet.
Three infirm people (eldery) came in and straight away were >>>>>>>>>>>>>offered
a
seat.
(This Jacina is what being kind means).
I came to the top of the queue and was ushed into a makeshift >>>>>>>>>>>>>(temporary)
room
which looked as if it was going to stay for some time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
"Bit busy to-day" I said.
"Yes it always this way"
"Been waiting long?"
"Long enough came my diplomatic reply. You could with some more >>>>>>>>>>>>>space"
"And also some more staff"
"Indeed"
The staff were working under not the easiest of conditions and >>>>>>>>>>>>>showing
great
calmness.
On leaving I noticed a sign offering for the clients to give >>>>>>>>>>>>>feedback
on
their experience. Really, are they serious, I thought then thought >>>>>>>>>>>>>maybe
everyone should suggest that the new Health Minister do a tour of >>>>>>>>>>>>>duty
doing
what the people they serve experience.
One thing for sure it can be done better and should be better. >>>>>>>>>>>>>This
is
the
front end of the public health system which should be easy to get >>>>>>>>>>>>>right,
for
everyone. A few improvements and some little funding is all that is
required. This is low hanging fruit.
Gordon - there is a lot of low-handing fruit with Health. >>>>>>>>>>>>
Take end-of-life palliative care:
https://www.hospice.org.nz/
This is an overall view. Now look at a specific hospice >>>>>>>>>>>>organisation:
https://www.hospicemn.org.nz/page/about/
Note that Hospice NZ claims that the government funds around 50% of >>>>>>>>>>>>the cost of service provision - but for Hospice Mid-North that is >>>>>>>>>>>>just
over 30% - a situation that have got markedly worse over the last 6 >>>>>>>>>>>>years. I am one of many volunteers in a low-population-density >>>>>>>>>>>>region
that keeps the lights on for an organisation dedicated to >>>>>>>>>>>>end-of-life
care for those that Health NZ declares to be afflicted with >>>>>>>>>>>>life-ending health issues.
So are you advocating that government should give priority to a large
increase in funding for hospices? That would be very expensive - why >>>>>>>>>>>do you consider it "low-hanging fruit"?
My post was quite straightforward but I will elucidate further. I am >>>>>>>>>>advocating that Hospice funding be returned to the same level of cost >>>>>>>>>>reimbursement for each Hospice organisation that the previous >>>>>>>>>>National-led governments paid. This is not an increase as such - it >>>>>>>>>>is to address cost inflation. This is reasonable given that Hospice >>>>>>>>>>organisations are all not-for-profit charities and provide core >>>>>>>>>>services that Health NZ would otherwise have to fund in full (or >>>>>>>>>>otherwise). The balance of costs is met from continuous fundraising. >>>>>>>>>>
I made no comment whatever on urgency or priority and I don't >>>>>>>>>>understand how you arrived at any conclusion that I did.
I am commenting solely on Hospices. This is one that is in trouble: >>>>>>>>>>
I am not sure if either hospices or a blood collection centre as >>>>>>>>>>>described by Gordon are appropriately described as the front end of >>>>>>>>>>>the public health system; but it is also unclear just what effect >>>>>>>>>>>increasing government funding would achieve in either case. >>>>>>>>>>
https://tinyurl.com/bdbkdn57
They are in a relatively good space with 55% of costs covered. >>>>>>>>>>
Hospice Mid-North (covers mid-Northland outside Whangarei) fares far >>>>>>>>>>worse. As a member I get up-to-date information and the funding from >>>>>>>>>>Health NZ covers just 34% of costs - just 3 years ago this was just >>>>>>>>>>over 50%. They can continue because they receive significant business
sponsorship and community support but both funding sources are >>>>>>>>>>stretched to the limit.
You have indicated that you believe funding for Hospices from >>>>>>>>>government has fallen in recent years - do you have any evidence of >>>>>>>>>that? Secondly, why do you believe that government needs to fund such >>>>>>>>>services at all? These are not essential health costs, they are part >>>>>>>>>of normal life - in the lifetime of many living today there were no >>>>>>>>>hospices. Where is the balance with personal and family >>>>>>>>>responsibilities?
are
unavailable in most hospitals.
An example of that is that hospices specialise in pain management, >>>>>>>>something
that hospitals often struggle with. That is not the only example. >>>>>>>>If you were to do a tiny bit of research you would know that.
We seem to have drifted away from the initial comment about waiting >>>>>>>times for having a blood sample taken - what sort of management would >>>>>>>regard staff being busy as needing more staff so they were not busy? >>>>>>Pain management is a hospice speciality - I merely pointed out that your >>>>>>comment was wilfully ignorant.
We do not have hospices available to all communities .Exactly which is why we need more of them and why we need better funding. >>>>>. .
Irrelevant. It is essential now.
A good try Rich - but you are the one that is drifting now. >>>>>>Hospices are essential and if you did the research you would know that. >>>>>>Charities exist primarily because of a need that is not otherwise >>>>>>provided
For hospices, it is really a matter of priorities - the charity >>>>>>>industry seems to be doing fairly well for a service that is not >>>>>>>needed by the majority of people - why should it be given priority >>>>>>>over for example resources in hospitals to bring down waiting lists >>>>>>>for surgery or specialist appointments? I would prefer that our >>>>>>>government goes for the spending that best improves the health of our >>>>>>>nation - spending money on queues for blood samples, or a perceived >>>>>>>shortage of hospices may not be the most urgent priority, although I >>>>>>>can see how that would appeal to the entitled wealthy . . .
-
hospices are one such vital need.
Hospices did not exist until Mary Potter Hospice was set up in >>>>>Wellington in 1979. It was not seen as a vital need by the then >>>>>government, or I suspect any subsequent government.
Do you believeDo you?
the new government will allocate any additional funding to hospices in >>>>>the first budget?
I note your unsupported opinion; sorry I see otherIrrelevant annoying abuse.
needs in health that are more important; so there is a different >>>>>unsupported opinion for you to consider . . .
If you see unsupported personal opinions as abuse, why do you do it so >>>often?
not see opinions as abuse - ever! But you do! Interesting sociopathic >>behaviour.
The whole thread is about unsupported opinions. Crash believed that
the government should increase the amount it pays med labs for their >collection services. These are private companies who have tendered to
provide services; there is often more than one company providing those >services in larger locations - being busy is a sign of success - and
why there are conditions relating to work breaks in employee
agreements. Why would a government interfere in the workings of a
competitive market to ensure that the companies are even more
profitable?
Then Crash moved us to the issue of whether other private
organisations - in this case Hospices - should receive more government
money. They are of course also private organisations, albeit set up as >charitable trusts. I well remember the fund-raising for the Mary
Potter Hospice when it was first being set up. They had very
successful "High Society" events such as Balls with gowns and gloves
for the ladies and white tie and tails for the men - and lists of
substantial donors. From the Charities Commission website, there are
three trusts that comprise the organisation - with net assets as
follows:
Hospice Foundation $12,873, 319
Hospice Forever Foundation (also called Capital Endowment Trust:
$9,341, 148
Hospice Apartments Ltd $11,115,042
Giving a total capital value of $33,329,509
I suspect values of land and building may be at book value, but I have
not bothered to investigate.
I can confirm that it is a lovely place to provide the excellent
services that they do. Like a private hospital, it does not have the
harried, busy and short of space feel of a public hospital; Staff are
not perpetually busy like the staff at a public hospital; they are
well equipped, with staff that are well paid and have time to talk to >patients, in well furnished and quieter work conditions than a ward in
a public hospital, which is of course where many do die.
Now not all hospices are as well set up as Mary Potter Hospice; but
ask yourself - is putting government money into a hospice as urgent as >putting a bit more into enabling a public hospital to provide Tom, a
74 year old man who lives alone and has not been able to get to the
shops himself due to the need for a hip or knee operation that he has
been waiting six months to have? Is it as urgent as ensuring that a
single mother with small children has to rely on a food bank to
support her family?
Sorry, subsidising private organisations like hospices and private med
lab companies just does not seem to me to be the most urgent priority
for government funding, but you may have another unsupported opinion
to the contrary . . . Maybe the Health minister, whoever the next one
is, is not the only person that needs to get out more . . .
On Sat, 04 Nov 2023 10:59:49 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>I apologise - yes you responded to the initial post about med lab
wrote:
On Fri, 3 Nov 2023 00:26:17 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 23:33:59 -0000 (UTC), TonyNo more so than you and that is well demonstrated. The differenece is that I do
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 21:58:58 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:As already stated, hospices are specialists in pain management and other >>>>>services. Most hospitals are not as skilled in this essential service. Stop
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:That does not mean that without a hospice pain management is not >>>>>>available through hospitals. This is not an area of medicine that only >>>>>>works in a facility specialising in palliative care for those severely >>>>>>ill and dying.
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 20:13:13 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 14:04:37 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>>>>>wrote:Hospices are absolutely essential health costs. They provide services >>>>>>>>>that
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 10:53:39 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 20:11:06 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:
On 1 Nov 2023 02:59:15 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>
There has been many column inches about the state of the health >>>>>>>>>>>>>>system
in
NZ.
Not of alot of it praise in them.
Recently I needed to give a blood sample. Picked a site closeby and
presented
myself at 8:45am on a week day. There were about 10 car parking >>>>>>>>>>>>>>spaces
with
had great activity as the clients came and left.
As I was getting out of the car a couple of men came out and leant
against
their car. They seemed to be waiting. I walked over to the entrance
and
slid
the door ajar. First impression it was busy and second was that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>there
was
no
room to swing a dead cat as my Grand Mother would say. One needed to
be
careful as there was only enough room to move with care. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The inquiry counter was behind a row of chairs with people waiting
on
them.
The digtial registration process functioned rather well. Once you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>could
read
the instructions or if you had forgetten. There was the usual number
of
under 5 year olds who got under peoples feet.
Three infirm people (eldery) came in and straight away were offered
a
seat.
(This Jacina is what being kind means).
I came to the top of the queue and was ushed into a makeshift >>>>>>>>>>>>>>(temporary)
room
which looked as if it was going to stay for some time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"Bit busy to-day" I said.
"Yes it always this way"
"Been waiting long?"
"Long enough came my diplomatic reply. You could with some more >>>>>>>>>>>>>>space"
"And also some more staff"
"Indeed"
The staff were working under not the easiest of conditions and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>showing
great
calmness.
On leaving I noticed a sign offering for the clients to give >>>>>>>>>>>>>>feedback
on
their experience. Really, are they serious, I thought then thought
maybe
everyone should suggest that the new Health Minister do a tour of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>duty
doing
what the people they serve experience.
One thing for sure it can be done better and should be better. This
is
the
front end of the public health system which should be easy to get >>>>>>>>>>>>>>right,
for
everyone. A few improvements and some little funding is all that is
required. This is low hanging fruit.
Gordon - there is a lot of low-handing fruit with Health. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
Take end-of-life palliative care:
https://www.hospice.org.nz/
This is an overall view. Now look at a specific hospice organisation:
https://www.hospicemn.org.nz/page/about/
Note that Hospice NZ claims that the government funds around 50% of
the cost of service provision - but for Hospice Mid-North that is just
over 30% - a situation that have got markedly worse over the last 6
years. I am one of many volunteers in a low-population-density region
that keeps the lights on for an organisation dedicated to end-of-life
care for those that Health NZ declares to be afflicted with >>>>>>>>>>>>>life-ending health issues.
So are you advocating that government should give priority to a large
increase in funding for hospices? That would be very expensive - why
do you consider it "low-hanging fruit"?
My post was quite straightforward but I will elucidate further. I am
advocating that Hospice funding be returned to the same level of cost
reimbursement for each Hospice organisation that the previous >>>>>>>>>>>National-led governments paid. This is not an increase as such - it >>>>>>>>>>>is to address cost inflation. This is reasonable given that Hospice >>>>>>>>>>>organisations are all not-for-profit charities and provide core >>>>>>>>>>>services that Health NZ would otherwise have to fund in full (or >>>>>>>>>>>otherwise). The balance of costs is met from continuous fundraising.
I made no comment whatever on urgency or priority and I don't >>>>>>>>>>>understand how you arrived at any conclusion that I did.
I am commenting solely on Hospices. This is one that is in trouble: >>>>>>>>>>>
I am not sure if either hospices or a blood collection centre as >>>>>>>>>>>>described by Gordon are appropriately described as the front end of >>>>>>>>>>>>the public health system; but it is also unclear just what effect >>>>>>>>>>>>increasing government funding would achieve in either case. >>>>>>>>>>>
https://tinyurl.com/bdbkdn57
They are in a relatively good space with 55% of costs covered. >>>>>>>>>>>
Hospice Mid-North (covers mid-Northland outside Whangarei) fares far >>>>>>>>>>>worse. As a member I get up-to-date information and the funding from
Health NZ covers just 34% of costs - just 3 years ago this was just >>>>>>>>>>>over 50%. They can continue because they receive significant business
sponsorship and community support but both funding sources are >>>>>>>>>>>stretched to the limit.
You have indicated that you believe funding for Hospices from >>>>>>>>>>government has fallen in recent years - do you have any evidence of >>>>>>>>>>that? Secondly, why do you believe that government needs to fund such >>>>>>>>>>services at all? These are not essential health costs, they are part >>>>>>>>>>of normal life - in the lifetime of many living today there were no >>>>>>>>>>hospices. Where is the balance with personal and family >>>>>>>>>>responsibilities?
are
unavailable in most hospitals.
An example of that is that hospices specialise in pain management, >>>>>>>>>something
that hospitals often struggle with. That is not the only example. >>>>>>>>>If you were to do a tiny bit of research you would know that.
We seem to have drifted away from the initial comment about waiting >>>>>>>>times for having a blood sample taken - what sort of management would >>>>>>>>regard staff being busy as needing more staff so they were not busy? >>>>>>>Pain management is a hospice speciality - I merely pointed out that your >>>>>>>comment was wilfully ignorant.
guessing and do some easy research.
We do not have hospices available to all communities .Exactly which is why we need more of them and why we need better funding. >>>>>>. .
Irrelevant. It is essential now.
A good try Rich - but you are the one that is drifting now. >>>>>>>Hospices are essential and if you did the research you would know that. >>>>>>>Charities exist primarily because of a need that is not otherwise provided
For hospices, it is really a matter of priorities - the charity >>>>>>>>industry seems to be doing fairly well for a service that is not >>>>>>>>needed by the majority of people - why should it be given priority >>>>>>>>over for example resources in hospitals to bring down waiting lists >>>>>>>>for surgery or specialist appointments? I would prefer that our >>>>>>>>government goes for the spending that best improves the health of our >>>>>>>>nation - spending money on queues for blood samples, or a perceived >>>>>>>>shortage of hospices may not be the most urgent priority, although I >>>>>>>>can see how that would appeal to the entitled wealthy . . .
-
hospices are one such vital need.
Hospices did not exist until Mary Potter Hospice was set up in >>>>>>Wellington in 1979. It was not seen as a vital need by the then >>>>>>government, or I suspect any subsequent government.
Do you believeDo you?
the new government will allocate any additional funding to hospices in >>>>>>the first budget?
I note your unsupported opinion; sorry I see otherIrrelevant annoying abuse.
needs in health that are more important; so there is a different >>>>>>unsupported opinion for you to consider . . .
If you see unsupported personal opinions as abuse, why do you do it so >>>>often?
not see opinions as abuse - ever! But you do! Interesting sociopathic behaviour.
The whole thread is about unsupported opinions. Crash believed that
the government should increase the amount it pays med labs for their >>collection services.
Where did you see that? I made no comment whatever on med labs or
what the government should fund. I simply commented on the plight of
Hospice organisations.
These are private companies who have tendered toYou do not seem to have got the message from my earlier post -
provide services; there is often more than one company providing those >>services in larger locations - being busy is a sign of success - and
why there are conditions relating to work breaks in employee
agreements. Why would a government interfere in the workings of a >>competitive market to ensure that the companies are even more
profitable?
Then Crash moved us to the issue of whether other private
organisations - in this case Hospices - should receive more government >>money. They are of course also private organisations, albeit set up as >>charitable trusts. I well remember the fund-raising for the Mary
Potter Hospice when it was first being set up. They had very
successful "High Society" events such as Balls with gowns and gloves
for the ladies and white tie and tails for the men - and lists of >>substantial donors. From the Charities Commission website, there are
three trusts that comprise the organisation - with net assets as
follows:
Hospice Foundation $12,873, 319
Hospice Forever Foundation (also called Capital Endowment Trust:
$9,341, 148
Hospice Apartments Ltd $11,115,042
Giving a total capital value of $33,329,509
I suspect values of land and building may be at book value, but I have
not bothered to investigate.
I can confirm that it is a lovely place to provide the excellent
services that they do. Like a private hospital, it does not have the >>harried, busy and short of space feel of a public hospital; Staff are
not perpetually busy like the staff at a public hospital; they are
well equipped, with staff that are well paid and have time to talk to >>patients, in well furnished and quieter work conditions than a ward in
a public hospital, which is of course where many do die.
Now not all hospices are as well set up as Mary Potter Hospice; but
ask yourself - is putting government money into a hospice as urgent as >>putting a bit more into enabling a public hospital to provide Tom, a
74 year old man who lives alone and has not been able to get to the
shops himself due to the need for a hip or knee operation that he has
been waiting six months to have? Is it as urgent as ensuring that a
single mother with small children has to rely on a food bank to
support her family?
Sorry, subsidising private organisations like hospices and private med
lab companies just does not seem to me to be the most urgent priority
for government funding, but you may have another unsupported opinion
to the contrary . . . Maybe the Health minister, whoever the next one
is, is not the only person that needs to get out more . . .
Hospices are not subsidised - they are paid to take on the
terminally-ill at the request of Health NZ to free up hospital
resources. If there were no Hospices there would be fewer beds and
medical staff available for the likes of Tom to get the op he needs.
You have chosen an example the Mary Potter Hospice. Your implication
that because this organisation has been successful in fundraising >income-generating assets implies it should not receive the same
attention as other funding demands on Health NZ.
You ignore some major facts:
- I have suggested that Health NZ restore funding levels to 2017
levels.
- Hospices have never been fully funded and I have never advocated
that this should change.
- Northhaven in Whangarei is a residential Hospice like Mary Potter.
It is about 75% staffed by volunteers (IIRC) - the rest are paid
medical staff the costs of which are partly met by Health NZ. The
Hospice organisation I volunteer for provides solely in-home care
(there is no residential hospice here). That care is provided
exclusively by visiting nurses and paid carers (does not involve
Hospice).
All Hospices are continually fundraising to meet operational costs.
Some of them (Mary Potter is a case in point) have accumulated donated
assets over the years that contribute income but all still fund raise >continually, mostly through volunteer-manned op shops. Every Hospice
has to raise funds every day to keep going. Unlike St John, no
patient is ever asked to pay for what they receive.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 3 Nov 2023 00:26:17 -0000 (UTC), TonyHospices provide something that hospitals cannot. Hospitals often refer >patients to hospices. Clearly the current funding model fails to provide an >essential service. So the money comes from charitable works and volunteers.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 23:33:59 -0000 (UTC), TonyNo more so than you and that is well demonstrated. The differenece is that I >>>do
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 21:58:58 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:As already stated, hospices are specialists in pain management and other >>>>>services. Most hospitals are not as skilled in this essential service. Stop
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:That does not mean that without a hospice pain management is not >>>>>>available through hospitals. This is not an area of medicine that only >>>>>>works in a facility specialising in palliative care for those severely >>>>>>ill and dying.
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 20:13:13 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 14:04:37 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>>>>>>>wrote:Hospices are absolutely essential health costs. They provide services >>>>>>>>>that
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 10:53:39 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 20:11:06 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:
On 1 Nov 2023 02:59:15 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>
There has been many column inches about the state of the health >>>>>>>>>>>>>>system
in
NZ.
Not of alot of it praise in them.
Recently I needed to give a blood sample. Picked a site closeby >>>>>>>>>>>>>>and
presented
myself at 8:45am on a week day. There were about 10 car parking >>>>>>>>>>>>>>spaces
with
had great activity as the clients came and left.
As I was getting out of the car a couple of men came out and leant
against
their car. They seemed to be waiting. I walked over to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>entrance
and
slid
the door ajar. First impression it was busy and second was that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>there
was
no
room to swing a dead cat as my Grand Mother would say. One needed >>>>>>>>>>>>>>to
be
careful as there was only enough room to move with care. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The inquiry counter was behind a row of chairs with people waiting
on
them.
The digtial registration process functioned rather well. Once you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>could
read
the instructions or if you had forgetten. There was the usual >>>>>>>>>>>>>>number
of
under 5 year olds who got under peoples feet.
Three infirm people (eldery) came in and straight away were >>>>>>>>>>>>>>offered
a
seat.
(This Jacina is what being kind means).
I came to the top of the queue and was ushed into a makeshift >>>>>>>>>>>>>>(temporary)
room
which looked as if it was going to stay for some time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"Bit busy to-day" I said.
"Yes it always this way"
"Been waiting long?"
"Long enough came my diplomatic reply. You could with some more >>>>>>>>>>>>>>space"
"And also some more staff"
"Indeed"
The staff were working under not the easiest of conditions and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>showing
great
calmness.
On leaving I noticed a sign offering for the clients to give >>>>>>>>>>>>>>feedback
on
their experience. Really, are they serious, I thought then thought
maybe
everyone should suggest that the new Health Minister do a tour of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>duty
doing
what the people they serve experience.
One thing for sure it can be done better and should be better. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>This
is
the
front end of the public health system which should be easy to get >>>>>>>>>>>>>>right,
for
everyone. A few improvements and some little funding is all that is
required. This is low hanging fruit.
Gordon - there is a lot of low-handing fruit with Health. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
Take end-of-life palliative care:
https://www.hospice.org.nz/
This is an overall view. Now look at a specific hospice >>>>>>>>>>>>>organisation:
https://www.hospicemn.org.nz/page/about/
Note that Hospice NZ claims that the government funds around 50% of
the cost of service provision - but for Hospice Mid-North that is >>>>>>>>>>>>>just
over 30% - a situation that have got markedly worse over the last 6
years. I am one of many volunteers in a low-population-density >>>>>>>>>>>>>region
that keeps the lights on for an organisation dedicated to >>>>>>>>>>>>>end-of-life
care for those that Health NZ declares to be afflicted with >>>>>>>>>>>>>life-ending health issues.
So are you advocating that government should give priority to a large
increase in funding for hospices? That would be very expensive - why
do you consider it "low-hanging fruit"?
My post was quite straightforward but I will elucidate further. I am
advocating that Hospice funding be returned to the same level of cost
reimbursement for each Hospice organisation that the previous >>>>>>>>>>>National-led governments paid. This is not an increase as such - it >>>>>>>>>>>is to address cost inflation. This is reasonable given that Hospice >>>>>>>>>>>organisations are all not-for-profit charities and provide core >>>>>>>>>>>services that Health NZ would otherwise have to fund in full (or >>>>>>>>>>>otherwise). The balance of costs is met from continuous fundraising.
I made no comment whatever on urgency or priority and I don't >>>>>>>>>>>understand how you arrived at any conclusion that I did.
I am commenting solely on Hospices. This is one that is in trouble: >>>>>>>>>>>
I am not sure if either hospices or a blood collection centre as >>>>>>>>>>>>described by Gordon are appropriately described as the front end of >>>>>>>>>>>>the public health system; but it is also unclear just what effect >>>>>>>>>>>>increasing government funding would achieve in either case. >>>>>>>>>>>
https://tinyurl.com/bdbkdn57
They are in a relatively good space with 55% of costs covered. >>>>>>>>>>>
Hospice Mid-North (covers mid-Northland outside Whangarei) fares far >>>>>>>>>>>worse. As a member I get up-to-date information and the funding from
Health NZ covers just 34% of costs - just 3 years ago this was just >>>>>>>>>>>over 50%. They can continue because they receive significant business
sponsorship and community support but both funding sources are >>>>>>>>>>>stretched to the limit.
You have indicated that you believe funding for Hospices from >>>>>>>>>>government has fallen in recent years - do you have any evidence of >>>>>>>>>>that? Secondly, why do you believe that government needs to fund such >>>>>>>>>>services at all? These are not essential health costs, they are part >>>>>>>>>>of normal life - in the lifetime of many living today there were no >>>>>>>>>>hospices. Where is the balance with personal and family >>>>>>>>>>responsibilities?
are
unavailable in most hospitals.
An example of that is that hospices specialise in pain management, >>>>>>>>>something
that hospitals often struggle with. That is not the only example. >>>>>>>>>If you were to do a tiny bit of research you would know that.
We seem to have drifted away from the initial comment about waiting >>>>>>>>times for having a blood sample taken - what sort of management would >>>>>>>>regard staff being busy as needing more staff so they were not busy? >>>>>>>Pain management is a hospice speciality - I merely pointed out that your >>>>>>>comment was wilfully ignorant.
guessing and do some easy research.
We do not have hospices available to all communities .Exactly which is why we need more of them and why we need better funding. >>>>>>. .
Irrelevant. It is essential now.
A good try Rich - but you are the one that is drifting now. >>>>>>>Hospices are essential and if you did the research you would know that. >>>>>>>Charities exist primarily because of a need that is not otherwise >>>>>>>provided
For hospices, it is really a matter of priorities - the charity >>>>>>>>industry seems to be doing fairly well for a service that is not >>>>>>>>needed by the majority of people - why should it be given priority >>>>>>>>over for example resources in hospitals to bring down waiting lists >>>>>>>>for surgery or specialist appointments? I would prefer that our >>>>>>>>government goes for the spending that best improves the health of our >>>>>>>>nation - spending money on queues for blood samples, or a perceived >>>>>>>>shortage of hospices may not be the most urgent priority, although I >>>>>>>>can see how that would appeal to the entitled wealthy . . .
-
hospices are one such vital need.
Hospices did not exist until Mary Potter Hospice was set up in >>>>>>Wellington in 1979. It was not seen as a vital need by the then >>>>>>government, or I suspect any subsequent government.
Do you believeDo you?
the new government will allocate any additional funding to hospices in >>>>>>the first budget?
I note your unsupported opinion; sorry I see otherIrrelevant annoying abuse.
needs in health that are more important; so there is a different >>>>>>unsupported opinion for you to consider . . .
If you see unsupported personal opinions as abuse, why do you do it so >>>>often?
not see opinions as abuse - ever! But you do! Interesting sociopathic >>>behaviour.
The whole thread is about unsupported opinions. Crash believed that
the government should increase the amount it pays med labs for their >>collection services. These are private companies who have tendered to >>provide services; there is often more than one company providing those >>services in larger locations - being busy is a sign of success - and
why there are conditions relating to work breaks in employee
agreements. Why would a government interfere in the workings of a >>competitive market to ensure that the companies are even more
profitable?
Then Crash moved us to the issue of whether other private
organisations - in this case Hospices - should receive more government >>money. They are of course also private organisations, albeit set up as >>charitable trusts. I well remember the fund-raising for the Mary
Potter Hospice when it was first being set up. They had very
successful "High Society" events such as Balls with gowns and gloves
for the ladies and white tie and tails for the men - and lists of >>substantial donors. From the Charities Commission website, there are
three trusts that comprise the organisation - with net assets as
follows:
Hospice Foundation $12,873, 319
Hospice Forever Foundation (also called Capital Endowment Trust:
$9,341, 148
Hospice Apartments Ltd $11,115,042
Giving a total capital value of $33,329,509
I suspect values of land and building may be at book value, but I have
not bothered to investigate.
I can confirm that it is a lovely place to provide the excellent
services that they do. Like a private hospital, it does not have the >>harried, busy and short of space feel of a public hospital; Staff are
not perpetually busy like the staff at a public hospital; they are
well equipped, with staff that are well paid and have time to talk to >>patients, in well furnished and quieter work conditions than a ward in
a public hospital, which is of course where many do die.
Now not all hospices are as well set up as Mary Potter Hospice; but
ask yourself - is putting government money into a hospice as urgent as >>putting a bit more into enabling a public hospital to provide Tom, a
74 year old man who lives alone and has not been able to get to the
shops himself due to the need for a hip or knee operation that he has
been waiting six months to have? Is it as urgent as ensuring that a
single mother with small children has to rely on a food bank to
support her family?
Sorry, subsidising private organisations like hospices and private med
lab companies just does not seem to me to be the most urgent priority
for government funding, but you may have another unsupported opinion
to the contrary . . . Maybe the Health minister, whoever the next one
is, is not the only person that needs to get out more . . .
I cannot see what is wrong with that but you clearly do see something is wrong.
As for unsupported opinions, every single opinion you have expressed in this >thread was and is unsupported.
Let me be clear - there is nothing wrong with that except that you complain >when others express such opinions. Talk about hypocrisy!
On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 07:19:00 -0000 (UTC), TonyThat is a lie - that is absolutelyu not what you said during this thread. You change the topic almost every sentence.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 3 Nov 2023 00:26:17 -0000 (UTC), TonyHospices provide something that hospitals cannot. Hospitals often refer >>patients to hospices. Clearly the current funding model fails to provide an >>essential service. So the money comes from charitable works and volunteers. >>I cannot see what is wrong with that but you clearly do see something is >>wrong.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 23:33:59 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:No more so than you and that is well demonstrated. The differenece is that >>>>I
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 21:58:58 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:As already stated, hospices are specialists in pain management and other >>>>>>services. Most hospitals are not as skilled in this essential service. >>>>>>Stop
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:That does not mean that without a hospice pain management is not >>>>>>>available through hospitals. This is not an area of medicine that only >>>>>>>works in a facility specialising in palliative care for those severely >>>>>>>ill and dying.
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 20:13:13 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:comment was wilfully ignorant.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:We seem to have drifted away from the initial comment about waiting >>>>>>>>>times for having a blood sample taken - what sort of management would >>>>>>>>>regard staff being busy as needing more staff so they were not busy? >>>>>>>>Pain management is a hospice speciality - I merely pointed out that >>>>>>>>your
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 14:04:37 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>Hospices are absolutely essential health costs. They provide services >>>>>>>>>>that
wrote:
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 10:53:39 +1300, Rich80105 >>>>>>>>>>>><Rich80105@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 20:11:06 +1300, Crash >>>>>>>>>>>>><nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:
On 1 Nov 2023 02:59:15 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
There has been many column inches about the state of the health >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>system
in
NZ.
Not of alot of it praise in them.
Recently I needed to give a blood sample. Picked a site closeby >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>and
presented
myself at 8:45am on a week day. There were about 10 car parking >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>spaces
with
had great activity as the clients came and left.
As I was getting out of the car a couple of men came out and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>leant
against
their car. They seemed to be waiting. I walked over to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>entrance
and
slid
the door ajar. First impression it was busy and second was that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>there
was
no
room to swing a dead cat as my Grand Mother would say. One >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>needed
to
be
careful as there was only enough room to move with care. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The inquiry counter was behind a row of chairs with people >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>waiting
on
them.
The digtial registration process functioned rather well. Once >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>you
could
read
the instructions or if you had forgetten. There was the usual >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>number
of
under 5 year olds who got under peoples feet.
Three infirm people (eldery) came in and straight away were >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>offered
a
seat.
(This Jacina is what being kind means).
I came to the top of the queue and was ushed into a makeshift >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(temporary)
room
which looked as if it was going to stay for some time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"Bit busy to-day" I said.
"Yes it always this way"
"Been waiting long?"
"Long enough came my diplomatic reply. You could with some more >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>space"
"And also some more staff"
"Indeed"
The staff were working under not the easiest of conditions and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>showing
great
calmness.
On leaving I noticed a sign offering for the clients to give >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>feedback
on
their experience. Really, are they serious, I thought then >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>thought
maybe
everyone should suggest that the new Health Minister do a tour >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>of
duty
doing
what the people they serve experience.
One thing for sure it can be done better and should be better. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>This
is
the
front end of the public health system which should be easy to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>get
right,
for
everyone. A few improvements and some little funding is all that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>is
required. This is low hanging fruit.
Gordon - there is a lot of low-handing fruit with Health. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Take end-of-life palliative care:
https://www.hospice.org.nz/
This is an overall view. Now look at a specific hospice >>>>>>>>>>>>>>organisation:
https://www.hospicemn.org.nz/page/about/
Note that Hospice NZ claims that the government funds around 50% >>>>>>>>>>>>>>of
the cost of service provision - but for Hospice Mid-North that is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>just
over 30% - a situation that have got markedly worse over the last >>>>>>>>>>>>>>6
years. I am one of many volunteers in a low-population-density >>>>>>>>>>>>>>region
that keeps the lights on for an organisation dedicated to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>end-of-life
care for those that Health NZ declares to be afflicted with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>life-ending health issues.
So are you advocating that government should give priority to a >>>>>>>>>>>>>large
increase in funding for hospices? That would be very expensive - >>>>>>>>>>>>>why
do you consider it "low-hanging fruit"?
My post was quite straightforward but I will elucidate further. I >>>>>>>>>>>>am
advocating that Hospice funding be returned to the same level of >>>>>>>>>>>>cost
reimbursement for each Hospice organisation that the previous >>>>>>>>>>>>National-led governments paid. This is not an increase as such - it
is to address cost inflation. This is reasonable given that Hospice
organisations are all not-for-profit charities and provide core >>>>>>>>>>>>services that Health NZ would otherwise have to fund in full (or >>>>>>>>>>>>otherwise). The balance of costs is met from continuous >>>>>>>>>>>>fundraising.
I made no comment whatever on urgency or priority and I don't >>>>>>>>>>>>understand how you arrived at any conclusion that I did. >>>>>>>>>>>>
I am commenting solely on Hospices. This is one that is in trouble:
I am not sure if either hospices or a blood collection centre as >>>>>>>>>>>>>described by Gordon are appropriately described as the front end of
the public health system; but it is also unclear just what effect >>>>>>>>>>>>>increasing government funding would achieve in either case. >>>>>>>>>>>>
https://tinyurl.com/bdbkdn57
They are in a relatively good space with 55% of costs covered. >>>>>>>>>>>>
Hospice Mid-North (covers mid-Northland outside Whangarei) fares far
worse. As a member I get up-to-date information and the funding >>>>>>>>>>>>from
Health NZ covers just 34% of costs - just 3 years ago this was just >>>>>>>>>>>>over 50%. They can continue because they receive significant >>>>>>>>>>>>business
sponsorship and community support but both funding sources are >>>>>>>>>>>>stretched to the limit.
You have indicated that you believe funding for Hospices from >>>>>>>>>>>government has fallen in recent years - do you have any evidence of >>>>>>>>>>>that? Secondly, why do you believe that government needs to fund such
services at all? These are not essential health costs, they are part >>>>>>>>>>>of normal life - in the lifetime of many living today there were no >>>>>>>>>>>hospices. Where is the balance with personal and family >>>>>>>>>>>responsibilities?
are
unavailable in most hospitals.
An example of that is that hospices specialise in pain management, >>>>>>>>>>something
that hospitals often struggle with. That is not the only example. >>>>>>>>>>If you were to do a tiny bit of research you would know that. >>>>>>>>>
guessing and do some easy research.
We do not have hospices available to all communities .Exactly which is why we need more of them and why we need better funding. >>>>>>>. .
Irrelevant. It is essential now.
A good try Rich - but you are the one that is drifting now. >>>>>>>>Hospices are essential and if you did the research you would know that. >>>>>>>>Charities exist primarily because of a need that is not otherwise >>>>>>>>provided
For hospices, it is really a matter of priorities - the charity >>>>>>>>>industry seems to be doing fairly well for a service that is not >>>>>>>>>needed by the majority of people - why should it be given priority >>>>>>>>>over for example resources in hospitals to bring down waiting lists >>>>>>>>>for surgery or specialist appointments? I would prefer that our >>>>>>>>>government goes for the spending that best improves the health of our >>>>>>>>>nation - spending money on queues for blood samples, or a perceived >>>>>>>>>shortage of hospices may not be the most urgent priority, although I >>>>>>>>>can see how that would appeal to the entitled wealthy . . .
-
hospices are one such vital need.
Hospices did not exist until Mary Potter Hospice was set up in >>>>>>>Wellington in 1979. It was not seen as a vital need by the then >>>>>>>government, or I suspect any subsequent government.
Do you believeDo you?
the new government will allocate any additional funding to hospices in >>>>>>>the first budget?
I note your unsupported opinion; sorry I see otherIrrelevant annoying abuse.
needs in health that are more important; so there is a different >>>>>>>unsupported opinion for you to consider . . .
If you see unsupported personal opinions as abuse, why do you do it so >>>>>often?
do
not see opinions as abuse - ever! But you do! Interesting sociopathic >>>>behaviour.
The whole thread is about unsupported opinions. Crash believed that
the government should increase the amount it pays med labs for their >>>collection services. These are private companies who have tendered to >>>provide services; there is often more than one company providing those >>>services in larger locations - being busy is a sign of success - and
why there are conditions relating to work breaks in employee
agreements. Why would a government interfere in the workings of a >>>competitive market to ensure that the companies are even more
profitable?
Then Crash moved us to the issue of whether other private
organisations - in this case Hospices - should receive more government >>>money. They are of course also private organisations, albeit set up as >>>charitable trusts. I well remember the fund-raising for the Mary
Potter Hospice when it was first being set up. They had very
successful "High Society" events such as Balls with gowns and gloves
for the ladies and white tie and tails for the men - and lists of >>>substantial donors. From the Charities Commission website, there are >>>three trusts that comprise the organisation - with net assets as
follows:
Hospice Foundation $12,873, 319
Hospice Forever Foundation (also called Capital Endowment Trust:
$9,341, 148
Hospice Apartments Ltd $11,115,042
Giving a total capital value of $33,329,509
I suspect values of land and building may be at book value, but I have >>>not bothered to investigate.
I can confirm that it is a lovely place to provide the excellent
services that they do. Like a private hospital, it does not have the >>>harried, busy and short of space feel of a public hospital; Staff are
not perpetually busy like the staff at a public hospital; they are
well equipped, with staff that are well paid and have time to talk to >>>patients, in well furnished and quieter work conditions than a ward in
a public hospital, which is of course where many do die.
Now not all hospices are as well set up as Mary Potter Hospice; but
ask yourself - is putting government money into a hospice as urgent as >>>putting a bit more into enabling a public hospital to provide Tom, a
74 year old man who lives alone and has not been able to get to the
shops himself due to the need for a hip or knee operation that he has >>>been waiting six months to have? Is it as urgent as ensuring that a >>>single mother with small children has to rely on a food bank to
support her family?
Sorry, subsidising private organisations like hospices and private med >>>lab companies just does not seem to me to be the most urgent priority
for government funding, but you may have another unsupported opinion
to the contrary . . . Maybe the Health minister, whoever the next one >>>is, is not the only person that needs to get out more . . .
I see nothing wrong with what you have described either. I am merely
saying that I do not see increasing money from government to be the
most urgent priority for government.
No comment from you I see - no surprise there, hypocrisy is you personified.As for unsupported opinions, every single opinion you have expressed in this >>thread was and is unsupported.
Let me be clear - there is nothing wrong with that except that you complain >>when others express such opinions. Talk about hypocrisy!
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:as irrefutable fact . . .
On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 07:19:00 -0000 (UTC), TonyThat is a lie - that is absolutelyu not what you said during this thread. You >change the topic almost every sentence.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 3 Nov 2023 00:26:17 -0000 (UTC), TonyHospices provide something that hospitals cannot. Hospitals often refer >>>patients to hospices. Clearly the current funding model fails to provide an >>>essential service. So the money comes from charitable works and volunteers. >>>I cannot see what is wrong with that but you clearly do see something is >>>wrong.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 23:33:59 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:No more so than you and that is well demonstrated. The differenece is that >>>>>I
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 21:58:58 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:As already stated, hospices are specialists in pain management and other >>>>>>>services. Most hospitals are not as skilled in this essential service. >>>>>>>Stop
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:That does not mean that without a hospice pain management is not >>>>>>>>available through hospitals. This is not an area of medicine that only >>>>>>>>works in a facility specialising in palliative care for those severely >>>>>>>>ill and dying.
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 20:13:13 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:comment was wilfully ignorant.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:We seem to have drifted away from the initial comment about waiting >>>>>>>>>>times for having a blood sample taken - what sort of management would >>>>>>>>>>regard staff being busy as needing more staff so they were not busy? >>>>>>>>>Pain management is a hospice speciality - I merely pointed out that >>>>>>>>>your
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 14:04:37 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>Hospices are absolutely essential health costs. They provide services
wrote:
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 10:53:39 +1300, Rich80105 >>>>>>>>>>>>><Rich80105@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 20:11:06 +1300, Crash >>>>>>>>>>>>>><nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:
On 1 Nov 2023 02:59:15 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
There has been many column inches about the state of the health >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>system
in
NZ.
Not of alot of it praise in them.
Recently I needed to give a blood sample. Picked a site closeby >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>and
presented
myself at 8:45am on a week day. There were about 10 car parking >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>spaces
with
had great activity as the clients came and left. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
As I was getting out of the car a couple of men came out and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>leant
against
their car. They seemed to be waiting. I walked over to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>entrance
and
slid
the door ajar. First impression it was busy and second was that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>there
was
no
room to swing a dead cat as my Grand Mother would say. One >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>needed
to
be
careful as there was only enough room to move with care. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The inquiry counter was behind a row of chairs with people >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>waiting
on
them.
The digtial registration process functioned rather well. Once >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>you
could
read
the instructions or if you had forgetten. There was the usual >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>number
of
under 5 year olds who got under peoples feet.
Three infirm people (eldery) came in and straight away were >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>offered
a
seat.
(This Jacina is what being kind means).
I came to the top of the queue and was ushed into a makeshift >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(temporary)
room
which looked as if it was going to stay for some time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"Bit busy to-day" I said.
"Yes it always this way"
"Been waiting long?"
"Long enough came my diplomatic reply. You could with some more >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>space"
"And also some more staff"
"Indeed"
The staff were working under not the easiest of conditions and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>showing
great
calmness.
On leaving I noticed a sign offering for the clients to give >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>feedback
on
their experience. Really, are they serious, I thought then >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>thought
maybe
everyone should suggest that the new Health Minister do a tour >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>of
duty
doing
what the people they serve experience.
One thing for sure it can be done better and should be better. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>This
is
the
front end of the public health system which should be easy to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>get
right,
for
everyone. A few improvements and some little funding is all that
is
required. This is low hanging fruit.
Gordon - there is a lot of low-handing fruit with Health. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Take end-of-life palliative care:
https://www.hospice.org.nz/
This is an overall view. Now look at a specific hospice >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>organisation:
https://www.hospicemn.org.nz/page/about/
Note that Hospice NZ claims that the government funds around 50% >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>of
the cost of service provision - but for Hospice Mid-North that is
just
over 30% - a situation that have got markedly worse over the last
6
years. I am one of many volunteers in a low-population-density >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>region
that keeps the lights on for an organisation dedicated to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>end-of-life
care for those that Health NZ declares to be afflicted with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>life-ending health issues.
So are you advocating that government should give priority to a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>large
increase in funding for hospices? That would be very expensive - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>why
do you consider it "low-hanging fruit"?
My post was quite straightforward but I will elucidate further. I >>>>>>>>>>>>>am
advocating that Hospice funding be returned to the same level of >>>>>>>>>>>>>cost
reimbursement for each Hospice organisation that the previous >>>>>>>>>>>>>National-led governments paid. This is not an increase as such - it
is to address cost inflation. This is reasonable given that Hospice
organisations are all not-for-profit charities and provide core >>>>>>>>>>>>>services that Health NZ would otherwise have to fund in full (or >>>>>>>>>>>>>otherwise). The balance of costs is met from continuous >>>>>>>>>>>>>fundraising.
I made no comment whatever on urgency or priority and I don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>understand how you arrived at any conclusion that I did. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
I am commenting solely on Hospices. This is one that is in trouble:
I am not sure if either hospices or a blood collection centre as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>described by Gordon are appropriately described as the front end of
the public health system; but it is also unclear just what effect >>>>>>>>>>>>>>increasing government funding would achieve in either case. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
https://tinyurl.com/bdbkdn57
They are in a relatively good space with 55% of costs covered. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hospice Mid-North (covers mid-Northland outside Whangarei) fares far
worse. As a member I get up-to-date information and the funding >>>>>>>>>>>>>from
Health NZ covers just 34% of costs - just 3 years ago this was just
over 50%. They can continue because they receive significant >>>>>>>>>>>>>business
sponsorship and community support but both funding sources are >>>>>>>>>>>>>stretched to the limit.
You have indicated that you believe funding for Hospices from >>>>>>>>>>>>government has fallen in recent years - do you have any evidence of >>>>>>>>>>>>that? Secondly, why do you believe that government needs to fund such
services at all? These are not essential health costs, they are part
of normal life - in the lifetime of many living today there were no >>>>>>>>>>>>hospices. Where is the balance with personal and family >>>>>>>>>>>>responsibilities?
that
are
unavailable in most hospitals.
An example of that is that hospices specialise in pain management, >>>>>>>>>>>something
that hospitals often struggle with. That is not the only example. >>>>>>>>>>>If you were to do a tiny bit of research you would know that. >>>>>>>>>>
guessing and do some easy research.
We do not have hospices available to all communities .Exactly which is why we need more of them and why we need better funding.
. .Irrelevant. It is essential now.
Charities exist primarily because of a need that is not otherwise >>>>>>>>>provided
For hospices, it is really a matter of priorities - the charity >>>>>>>>>>industry seems to be doing fairly well for a service that is not >>>>>>>>>>needed by the majority of people - why should it be given priority >>>>>>>>>>over for example resources in hospitals to bring down waiting lists >>>>>>>>>>for surgery or specialist appointments? I would prefer that our >>>>>>>>>>government goes for the spending that best improves the health of our >>>>>>>>>>nation - spending money on queues for blood samples, or a perceived >>>>>>>>>>shortage of hospices may not be the most urgent priority, although I >>>>>>>>>>can see how that would appeal to the entitled wealthy . . . >>>>>>>>>A good try Rich - but you are the one that is drifting now. >>>>>>>>>Hospices are essential and if you did the research you would know that.
-
hospices are one such vital need.
Hospices did not exist until Mary Potter Hospice was set up in >>>>>>>>Wellington in 1979. It was not seen as a vital need by the then >>>>>>>>government, or I suspect any subsequent government.
Do you believeDo you?
the new government will allocate any additional funding to hospices in >>>>>>>>the first budget?
I note your unsupported opinion; sorry I see otherIrrelevant annoying abuse.
needs in health that are more important; so there is a different >>>>>>>>unsupported opinion for you to consider . . .
If you see unsupported personal opinions as abuse, why do you do it so >>>>>>often?
do
not see opinions as abuse - ever! But you do! Interesting sociopathic >>>>>behaviour.
The whole thread is about unsupported opinions. Crash believed that
the government should increase the amount it pays med labs for their >>>>collection services. These are private companies who have tendered to >>>>provide services; there is often more than one company providing those >>>>services in larger locations - being busy is a sign of success - and >>>>why there are conditions relating to work breaks in employee >>>>agreements. Why would a government interfere in the workings of a >>>>competitive market to ensure that the companies are even more >>>>profitable?
Then Crash moved us to the issue of whether other private
organisations - in this case Hospices - should receive more government >>>>money. They are of course also private organisations, albeit set up as >>>>charitable trusts. I well remember the fund-raising for the Mary
Potter Hospice when it was first being set up. They had very
successful "High Society" events such as Balls with gowns and gloves >>>>for the ladies and white tie and tails for the men - and lists of >>>>substantial donors. From the Charities Commission website, there are >>>>three trusts that comprise the organisation - with net assets as >>>>follows:
Hospice Foundation $12,873, 319
Hospice Forever Foundation (also called Capital Endowment Trust: >>>>$9,341, 148
Hospice Apartments Ltd $11,115,042
Giving a total capital value of $33,329,509
I suspect values of land and building may be at book value, but I have >>>>not bothered to investigate.
I can confirm that it is a lovely place to provide the excellent >>>>services that they do. Like a private hospital, it does not have the >>>>harried, busy and short of space feel of a public hospital; Staff are >>>>not perpetually busy like the staff at a public hospital; they are
well equipped, with staff that are well paid and have time to talk to >>>>patients, in well furnished and quieter work conditions than a ward in >>>>a public hospital, which is of course where many do die.
Now not all hospices are as well set up as Mary Potter Hospice; but
ask yourself - is putting government money into a hospice as urgent as >>>>putting a bit more into enabling a public hospital to provide Tom, a
74 year old man who lives alone and has not been able to get to the >>>>shops himself due to the need for a hip or knee operation that he has >>>>been waiting six months to have? Is it as urgent as ensuring that a >>>>single mother with small children has to rely on a food bank to
support her family?
Sorry, subsidising private organisations like hospices and private med >>>>lab companies just does not seem to me to be the most urgent priority >>>>for government funding, but you may have another unsupported opinion
to the contrary . . . Maybe the Health minister, whoever the next one >>>>is, is not the only person that needs to get out more . . .
I see nothing wrong with what you have described either. I am merely
saying that I do not see increasing money from government to be the
most urgent priority for government.
No comment from you I see - no surprise there, hypocrisy is you personified. Your hypocrisy is that you frequently claim your unsupported opinions
As for unsupported opinions, every single opinion you have expressed in this >>>thread was and is unsupported.
Let me be clear - there is nothing wrong with that except that you complain >>>when others express such opinions. Talk about hypocrisy!
On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 19:53:40 -0000 (UTC), TonyThat is a lie - provide an example or piss off.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:as irrefutable fact . . .
On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 07:19:00 -0000 (UTC), TonyThat is a lie - that is absolutelyu not what you said during this thread. You >>change the topic almost every sentence.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 3 Nov 2023 00:26:17 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Hospices provide something that hospitals cannot. Hospitals often refer >>>>patients to hospices. Clearly the current funding model fails to provide an >>>>essential service. So the money comes from charitable works and volunteers. >>>>I cannot see what is wrong with that but you clearly do see something is >>>>wrong.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 23:33:59 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:No more so than you and that is well demonstrated. The differenece is >>>>>>that
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 21:58:58 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:As already stated, hospices are specialists in pain management and >>>>>>>>other
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:That does not mean that without a hospice pain management is not >>>>>>>>>available through hospitals. This is not an area of medicine that only >>>>>>>>>works in a facility specialising in palliative care for those severely >>>>>>>>>ill and dying.
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 20:13:13 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:comment was wilfully ignorant.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:We seem to have drifted away from the initial comment about waiting >>>>>>>>>>>times for having a blood sample taken - what sort of management would
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 14:04:37 +1300, Crash >>>>>>>>>>>>><nogood@dontbother.invalid>Hospices are absolutely essential health costs. They provide >>>>>>>>>>>>services
wrote:
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 10:53:39 +1300, Rich80105 >>>>>>>>>>>>>><Rich80105@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 20:11:06 +1300, Crash >>>>>>>>>>>>>>><nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:
On 1 Nov 2023 02:59:15 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
There has been many column inches about the state of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>health
system
in
NZ.
Not of alot of it praise in them.
Recently I needed to give a blood sample. Picked a site >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>closeby
and
presented
myself at 8:45am on a week day. There were about 10 car >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>parking
spaces
with
had great activity as the clients came and left. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
As I was getting out of the car a couple of men came out and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>leant
against
their car. They seemed to be waiting. I walked over to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>entrance
and
slid
the door ajar. First impression it was busy and second was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that
there
was
no
room to swing a dead cat as my Grand Mother would say. One >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>needed
to
be
careful as there was only enough room to move with care. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The inquiry counter was behind a row of chairs with people >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>waiting
on
them.
The digtial registration process functioned rather well. Once >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>you
could
read
the instructions or if you had forgetten. There was the usual >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>number
of
under 5 year olds who got under peoples feet. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Three infirm people (eldery) came in and straight away were >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>offered
a
seat.
(This Jacina is what being kind means).
I came to the top of the queue and was ushed into a makeshift >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(temporary)
room
which looked as if it was going to stay for some time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"Bit busy to-day" I said.
"Yes it always this way"
"Been waiting long?"
"Long enough came my diplomatic reply. You could with some >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>more
space"
"And also some more staff"
"Indeed"
The staff were working under not the easiest of conditions and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>showing
great
calmness.
On leaving I noticed a sign offering for the clients to give >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>feedback
on
their experience. Really, are they serious, I thought then >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>thought
maybe
everyone should suggest that the new Health Minister do a tour >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>of
duty
doing
what the people they serve experience.
One thing for sure it can be done better and should be better. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>This
is
the
front end of the public health system which should be easy to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>get
right,
for
everyone. A few improvements and some little funding is all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that
is
required. This is low hanging fruit.
Gordon - there is a lot of low-handing fruit with Health. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Take end-of-life palliative care:
https://www.hospice.org.nz/
This is an overall view. Now look at a specific hospice >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>organisation:
https://www.hospicemn.org.nz/page/about/
Note that Hospice NZ claims that the government funds around >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>50%
of
the cost of service provision - but for Hospice Mid-North that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>is
just
over 30% - a situation that have got markedly worse over the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>last
6
years. I am one of many volunteers in a low-population-density >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>region
that keeps the lights on for an organisation dedicated to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>end-of-life
care for those that Health NZ declares to be afflicted with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>life-ending health issues.
So are you advocating that government should give priority to a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>large
increase in funding for hospices? That would be very expensive - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>why
do you consider it "low-hanging fruit"?
My post was quite straightforward but I will elucidate further. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>I
am
advocating that Hospice funding be returned to the same level of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>cost
reimbursement for each Hospice organisation that the previous >>>>>>>>>>>>>>National-led governments paid. This is not an increase as such - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>it
is to address cost inflation. This is reasonable given that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hospice
organisations are all not-for-profit charities and provide core >>>>>>>>>>>>>>services that Health NZ would otherwise have to fund in full (or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>otherwise). The balance of costs is met from continuous >>>>>>>>>>>>>>fundraising.
I made no comment whatever on urgency or priority and I don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>understand how you arrived at any conclusion that I did. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I am commenting solely on Hospices. This is one that is in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>trouble:
I am not sure if either hospices or a blood collection centre as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>described by Gordon are appropriately described as the front end >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>of
the public health system; but it is also unclear just what effect
increasing government funding would achieve in either case. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
https://tinyurl.com/bdbkdn57
They are in a relatively good space with 55% of costs covered. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hospice Mid-North (covers mid-Northland outside Whangarei) fares >>>>>>>>>>>>>>far
worse. As a member I get up-to-date information and the funding >>>>>>>>>>>>>>from
Health NZ covers just 34% of costs - just 3 years ago this was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>just
over 50%. They can continue because they receive significant >>>>>>>>>>>>>>business
sponsorship and community support but both funding sources are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>stretched to the limit.
You have indicated that you believe funding for Hospices from >>>>>>>>>>>>>government has fallen in recent years - do you have any evidence of
that? Secondly, why do you believe that government needs to fund >>>>>>>>>>>>>such
services at all? These are not essential health costs, they are >>>>>>>>>>>>>part
of normal life - in the lifetime of many living today there were no
hospices. Where is the balance with personal and family >>>>>>>>>>>>>responsibilities?
that
are
unavailable in most hospitals.
An example of that is that hospices specialise in pain management, >>>>>>>>>>>>something
that hospitals often struggle with. That is not the only example. >>>>>>>>>>>>If you were to do a tiny bit of research you would know that. >>>>>>>>>>>
regard staff being busy as needing more staff so they were not busy? >>>>>>>>>>Pain management is a hospice speciality - I merely pointed out that >>>>>>>>>>your
services. Most hospitals are not as skilled in this essential service. >>>>>>>>Stop
guessing and do some easy research.
We do not have hospices available to all communities . >>>>>>>>Exactly which is why we need more of them and why we need better >>>>>>>>funding.Do you?
. .
Charities exist primarily because of a need that is not otherwise >>>>>>>>>>provided
For hospices, it is really a matter of priorities - the charity >>>>>>>>>>>industry seems to be doing fairly well for a service that is not >>>>>>>>>>>needed by the majority of people - why should it be given priority >>>>>>>>>>>over for example resources in hospitals to bring down waiting lists >>>>>>>>>>>for surgery or specialist appointments? I would prefer that our >>>>>>>>>>>government goes for the spending that best improves the health of our
nation - spending money on queues for blood samples, or a perceived >>>>>>>>>>>shortage of hospices may not be the most urgent priority, although I >>>>>>>>>>>can see how that would appeal to the entitled wealthy . . . >>>>>>>>>>A good try Rich - but you are the one that is drifting now. >>>>>>>>>>Hospices are essential and if you did the research you would know >>>>>>>>>>that.
-
hospices are one such vital need.
Hospices did not exist until Mary Potter Hospice was set up in >>>>>>>>>Wellington in 1979. It was not seen as a vital need by the then >>>>>>>>>government, or I suspect any subsequent government. >>>>>>>>Irrelevant. It is essential now.
Do you believe
the new government will allocate any additional funding to hospices in >>>>>>>>>the first budget?
I note your unsupported opinion; sorry I see otherIrrelevant annoying abuse.
needs in health that are more important; so there is a different >>>>>>>>>unsupported opinion for you to consider . . .
If you see unsupported personal opinions as abuse, why do you do it so >>>>>>>often?
I
do
not see opinions as abuse - ever! But you do! Interesting sociopathic >>>>>>behaviour.
The whole thread is about unsupported opinions. Crash believed that >>>>>the government should increase the amount it pays med labs for their >>>>>collection services. These are private companies who have tendered to >>>>>provide services; there is often more than one company providing those >>>>>services in larger locations - being busy is a sign of success - and >>>>>why there are conditions relating to work breaks in employee >>>>>agreements. Why would a government interfere in the workings of a >>>>>competitive market to ensure that the companies are even more >>>>>profitable?
Then Crash moved us to the issue of whether other private >>>>>organisations - in this case Hospices - should receive more government >>>>>money. They are of course also private organisations, albeit set up as >>>>>charitable trusts. I well remember the fund-raising for the Mary >>>>>Potter Hospice when it was first being set up. They had very >>>>>successful "High Society" events such as Balls with gowns and gloves >>>>>for the ladies and white tie and tails for the men - and lists of >>>>>substantial donors. From the Charities Commission website, there are >>>>>three trusts that comprise the organisation - with net assets as >>>>>follows:
Hospice Foundation $12,873, 319
Hospice Forever Foundation (also called Capital Endowment Trust: >>>>>$9,341, 148
Hospice Apartments Ltd $11,115,042
Giving a total capital value of $33,329,509
I suspect values of land and building may be at book value, but I have >>>>>not bothered to investigate.
I can confirm that it is a lovely place to provide the excellent >>>>>services that they do. Like a private hospital, it does not have the >>>>>harried, busy and short of space feel of a public hospital; Staff are >>>>>not perpetually busy like the staff at a public hospital; they are >>>>>well equipped, with staff that are well paid and have time to talk to >>>>>patients, in well furnished and quieter work conditions than a ward in >>>>>a public hospital, which is of course where many do die.
Now not all hospices are as well set up as Mary Potter Hospice; but >>>>>ask yourself - is putting government money into a hospice as urgent as >>>>>putting a bit more into enabling a public hospital to provide Tom, a >>>>>74 year old man who lives alone and has not been able to get to the >>>>>shops himself due to the need for a hip or knee operation that he has >>>>>been waiting six months to have? Is it as urgent as ensuring that a >>>>>single mother with small children has to rely on a food bank to >>>>>support her family?
Sorry, subsidising private organisations like hospices and private med >>>>>lab companies just does not seem to me to be the most urgent priority >>>>>for government funding, but you may have another unsupported opinion >>>>>to the contrary . . . Maybe the Health minister, whoever the next one >>>>>is, is not the only person that needs to get out more . . .
I see nothing wrong with what you have described either. I am merely >>>saying that I do not see increasing money from government to be the
most urgent priority for government.
No comment from you I see - no surprise there, hypocrisy is you personified. >Your hypocrisy is that you frequently claim your unsupported opinions
As for unsupported opinions, every single opinion you have expressed in >>>>this
thread was and is unsupported.
Let me be clear - there is nothing wrong with that except that you complain >>>>when others express such opinions. Talk about hypocrisy!
So here is another unsupported opinion - I do not believe that if heSo what, I have made no comment on that and it is completely irrelevant. All i have done is correct your silly nonsense that hospices are not essential core health organisations.
becomes Prime Minister, Luxon will allow any increase in funding for >hospices, or for medical laboratory collection services.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:You have not, all you have done is express an unsupported personal
On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 19:53:40 -0000 (UTC), TonyThat is a lie - provide an example or piss off.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:as irrefutable fact . . .
On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 07:19:00 -0000 (UTC), TonyThat is a lie - that is absolutelyu not what you said during this thread. You
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 3 Nov 2023 00:26:17 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Hospices provide something that hospitals cannot. Hospitals often refer >>>>>patients to hospices. Clearly the current funding model fails to provide an
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 23:33:59 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:No more so than you and that is well demonstrated. The differenece is >>>>>>>that
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 21:58:58 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:As already stated, hospices are specialists in pain management and >>>>>>>>>other
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:That does not mean that without a hospice pain management is not >>>>>>>>>>available through hospitals. This is not an area of medicine that only
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 20:13:13 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Pain management is a hospice speciality - I merely pointed out that >>>>>>>>>>>your
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:We seem to have drifted away from the initial comment about waiting >>>>>>>>>>>>times for having a blood sample taken - what sort of management would
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 14:04:37 +1300, Crash >>>>>>>>>>>>>><nogood@dontbother.invalid>Hospices are absolutely essential health costs. They provide >>>>>>>>>>>>>services
wrote:
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 10:53:39 +1300, Rich80105 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>><Rich80105@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 20:11:06 +1300, Crash >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:
On 1 Nov 2023 02:59:15 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
There has been many column inches about the state of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>health
system
in
NZ.
Not of alot of it praise in them.
Recently I needed to give a blood sample. Picked a site >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>closeby
and
presented
myself at 8:45am on a week day. There were about 10 car >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>parking
spaces
with
had great activity as the clients came and left. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
As I was getting out of the car a couple of men came out and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>leant
against
their car. They seemed to be waiting. I walked over to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>entrance
and
slid
the door ajar. First impression it was busy and second was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that
there
was
no
room to swing a dead cat as my Grand Mother would say. One >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>needed
to
be
careful as there was only enough room to move with care. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The inquiry counter was behind a row of chairs with people >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>waiting
on
them.
The digtial registration process functioned rather well. Once >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>you
could
read
the instructions or if you had forgetten. There was the usual >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>number
of
under 5 year olds who got under peoples feet. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Three infirm people (eldery) came in and straight away were >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>offered
a
seat.
(This Jacina is what being kind means).
I came to the top of the queue and was ushed into a makeshift >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(temporary)
room
which looked as if it was going to stay for some time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"Bit busy to-day" I said.
"Yes it always this way"
"Been waiting long?"
"Long enough came my diplomatic reply. You could with some >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>more
space"
"And also some more staff"
"Indeed"
The staff were working under not the easiest of conditions and
showing
great
calmness.
On leaving I noticed a sign offering for the clients to give >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>feedback
on
their experience. Really, are they serious, I thought then >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>thought
maybe
everyone should suggest that the new Health Minister do a tour
of
duty
doing
what the people they serve experience.
One thing for sure it can be done better and should be better.
This
is
the
front end of the public health system which should be easy to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>get
right,
for
everyone. A few improvements and some little funding is all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that
is
required. This is low hanging fruit.
Gordon - there is a lot of low-handing fruit with Health. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Take end-of-life palliative care:
https://www.hospice.org.nz/
This is an overall view. Now look at a specific hospice >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>organisation:
https://www.hospicemn.org.nz/page/about/
Note that Hospice NZ claims that the government funds around >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>50%
of
the cost of service provision - but for Hospice Mid-North that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>is
just
over 30% - a situation that have got markedly worse over the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>last
6
years. I am one of many volunteers in a low-population-density
region
that keeps the lights on for an organisation dedicated to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>end-of-life
care for those that Health NZ declares to be afflicted with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>life-ending health issues.
So are you advocating that government should give priority to a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>large
increase in funding for hospices? That would be very expensive -
why
do you consider it "low-hanging fruit"?
My post was quite straightforward but I will elucidate further. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I
am
advocating that Hospice funding be returned to the same level of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>cost
reimbursement for each Hospice organisation that the previous >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>National-led governments paid. This is not an increase as such -
it
is to address cost inflation. This is reasonable given that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hospice
organisations are all not-for-profit charities and provide core >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>services that Health NZ would otherwise have to fund in full (or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>otherwise). The balance of costs is met from continuous >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>fundraising.
I made no comment whatever on urgency or priority and I don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>understand how you arrived at any conclusion that I did. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I am commenting solely on Hospices. This is one that is in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>trouble:
I am not sure if either hospices or a blood collection centre as
described by Gordon are appropriately described as the front end
of
the public health system; but it is also unclear just what effect
increasing government funding would achieve in either case. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
https://tinyurl.com/bdbkdn57
They are in a relatively good space with 55% of costs covered. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hospice Mid-North (covers mid-Northland outside Whangarei) fares >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>far
worse. As a member I get up-to-date information and the funding >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>from
Health NZ covers just 34% of costs - just 3 years ago this was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>just
over 50%. They can continue because they receive significant >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>business
sponsorship and community support but both funding sources are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>stretched to the limit.
You have indicated that you believe funding for Hospices from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>government has fallen in recent years - do you have any evidence of
that? Secondly, why do you believe that government needs to fund >>>>>>>>>>>>>>such
services at all? These are not essential health costs, they are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>part
of normal life - in the lifetime of many living today there were no
hospices. Where is the balance with personal and family >>>>>>>>>>>>>>responsibilities?
that
are
unavailable in most hospitals.
An example of that is that hospices specialise in pain management, >>>>>>>>>>>>>something
that hospitals often struggle with. That is not the only example. >>>>>>>>>>>>>If you were to do a tiny bit of research you would know that. >>>>>>>>>>>>
regard staff being busy as needing more staff so they were not busy?
comment was wilfully ignorant.
works in a facility specialising in palliative care for those severely
ill and dying.
services. Most hospitals are not as skilled in this essential service. >>>>>>>>>Stop
guessing and do some easy research.
We do not have hospices available to all communities . >>>>>>>>>Exactly which is why we need more of them and why we need better >>>>>>>>>funding.Do you?
. .
Charities exist primarily because of a need that is not otherwise >>>>>>>>>>>provided
For hospices, it is really a matter of priorities - the charity >>>>>>>>>>>>industry seems to be doing fairly well for a service that is not >>>>>>>>>>>>needed by the majority of people - why should it be given priority >>>>>>>>>>>>over for example resources in hospitals to bring down waiting lists >>>>>>>>>>>>for surgery or specialist appointments? I would prefer that our >>>>>>>>>>>>government goes for the spending that best improves the health of our
nation - spending money on queues for blood samples, or a perceived >>>>>>>>>>>>shortage of hospices may not be the most urgent priority, although I
can see how that would appeal to the entitled wealthy . . . >>>>>>>>>>>A good try Rich - but you are the one that is drifting now. >>>>>>>>>>>Hospices are essential and if you did the research you would know >>>>>>>>>>>that.
-
hospices are one such vital need.
Hospices did not exist until Mary Potter Hospice was set up in >>>>>>>>>>Wellington in 1979. It was not seen as a vital need by the then >>>>>>>>>>government, or I suspect any subsequent government. >>>>>>>>>Irrelevant. It is essential now.
Do you believe
the new government will allocate any additional funding to hospices in
the first budget?
I note your unsupported opinion; sorry I see otherIrrelevant annoying abuse.
needs in health that are more important; so there is a different >>>>>>>>>>unsupported opinion for you to consider . . .
If you see unsupported personal opinions as abuse, why do you do it so >>>>>>>>often?
I
do
not see opinions as abuse - ever! But you do! Interesting sociopathic >>>>>>>behaviour.
The whole thread is about unsupported opinions. Crash believed that >>>>>>the government should increase the amount it pays med labs for their >>>>>>collection services. These are private companies who have tendered to >>>>>>provide services; there is often more than one company providing those >>>>>>services in larger locations - being busy is a sign of success - and >>>>>>why there are conditions relating to work breaks in employee >>>>>>agreements. Why would a government interfere in the workings of a >>>>>>competitive market to ensure that the companies are even more >>>>>>profitable?
Then Crash moved us to the issue of whether other private >>>>>>organisations - in this case Hospices - should receive more government >>>>>>money. They are of course also private organisations, albeit set up as >>>>>>charitable trusts. I well remember the fund-raising for the Mary >>>>>>Potter Hospice when it was first being set up. They had very >>>>>>successful "High Society" events such as Balls with gowns and gloves >>>>>>for the ladies and white tie and tails for the men - and lists of >>>>>>substantial donors. From the Charities Commission website, there are >>>>>>three trusts that comprise the organisation - with net assets as >>>>>>follows:
Hospice Foundation $12,873, 319
Hospice Forever Foundation (also called Capital Endowment Trust: >>>>>>$9,341, 148
Hospice Apartments Ltd $11,115,042
Giving a total capital value of $33,329,509
I suspect values of land and building may be at book value, but I have >>>>>>not bothered to investigate.
I can confirm that it is a lovely place to provide the excellent >>>>>>services that they do. Like a private hospital, it does not have the >>>>>>harried, busy and short of space feel of a public hospital; Staff are >>>>>>not perpetually busy like the staff at a public hospital; they are >>>>>>well equipped, with staff that are well paid and have time to talk to >>>>>>patients, in well furnished and quieter work conditions than a ward in >>>>>>a public hospital, which is of course where many do die.
Now not all hospices are as well set up as Mary Potter Hospice; but >>>>>>ask yourself - is putting government money into a hospice as urgent as >>>>>>putting a bit more into enabling a public hospital to provide Tom, a >>>>>>74 year old man who lives alone and has not been able to get to the >>>>>>shops himself due to the need for a hip or knee operation that he has >>>>>>been waiting six months to have? Is it as urgent as ensuring that a >>>>>>single mother with small children has to rely on a food bank to >>>>>>support her family?
Sorry, subsidising private organisations like hospices and private med >>>>>>lab companies just does not seem to me to be the most urgent priority >>>>>>for government funding, but you may have another unsupported opinion >>>>>>to the contrary . . . Maybe the Health minister, whoever the next one >>>>>>is, is not the only person that needs to get out more . . .
essential service. So the money comes from charitable works and volunteers.
I cannot see what is wrong with that but you clearly do see something is >>>>>wrong.
I see nothing wrong with what you have described either. I am merely >>>>saying that I do not see increasing money from government to be the >>>>most urgent priority for government.
change the topic almost every sentence.
No comment from you I see - no surprise there, hypocrisy is you personified. >>Your hypocrisy is that you frequently claim your unsupported opinions
As for unsupported opinions, every single opinion you have expressed in >>>>>this
thread was and is unsupported.
Let me be clear - there is nothing wrong with that except that you complain
when others express such opinions. Talk about hypocrisy!
So what, I have made no comment on that and it is completely irrelevant. All i >have done is correct your silly nonsense that hospices are not essential core >health organisations.
So here is another unsupported opinion - I do not believe that if he >>becomes Prime Minister, Luxon will allow any increase in funding for >>hospices, or for medical laboratory collection services.
On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 22:46:10 -0000 (UTC), TonyI have. In spades.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:You have not,
On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 19:53:40 -0000 (UTC), TonyThat is a lie - provide an example or piss off.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Your hypocrisy is that you frequently claim your unsupported opinions
On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 07:19:00 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:That is a lie - that is absolutelyu not what you said during this thread. >>>>You
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 3 Nov 2023 00:26:17 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:essential service. So the money comes from charitable works and >>>>>>volunteers.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 23:33:59 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:No more so than you and that is well demonstrated. The differenece is >>>>>>>>that
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 21:58:58 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:As already stated, hospices are specialists in pain management and >>>>>>>>>>other
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:That does not mean that without a hospice pain management is not >>>>>>>>>>>available through hospitals. This is not an area of medicine that >>>>>>>>>>>only
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 20:13:13 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Pain management is a hospice speciality - I merely pointed out that >>>>>>>>>>>>your
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:We seem to have drifted away from the initial comment about waiting
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 14:04:37 +1300, Crash >>>>>>>>>>>>>>><nogood@dontbother.invalid>Hospices are absolutely essential health costs. They provide >>>>>>>>>>>>>>services
wrote:
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 10:53:39 +1300, Rich80105 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><Rich80105@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 20:11:06 +1300, Crash >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:
On 1 Nov 2023 02:59:15 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
There has been many column inches about the state of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>health
system
in
NZ.
Not of alot of it praise in them.
Recently I needed to give a blood sample. Picked a site >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>closeby
and
presented
myself at 8:45am on a week day. There were about 10 car >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>parking
spaces
with
had great activity as the clients came and left. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
As I was getting out of the car a couple of men came out and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>leant
against
their car. They seemed to be waiting. I walked over to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>entrance
and
slid
the door ajar. First impression it was busy and second was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that
there
was
no
room to swing a dead cat as my Grand Mother would say. One >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>needed
to
be
careful as there was only enough room to move with care. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The inquiry counter was behind a row of chairs with people >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>waiting
on
them.
The digtial registration process functioned rather well. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Once
you
could
read
the instructions or if you had forgetten. There was the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>usual
number
of
under 5 year olds who got under peoples feet. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Three infirm people (eldery) came in and straight away were >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>offered
a
seat.
(This Jacina is what being kind means).
I came to the top of the queue and was ushed into a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>makeshift
(temporary)
room
which looked as if it was going to stay for some time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"Bit busy to-day" I said.
"Yes it always this way"
"Been waiting long?"
"Long enough came my diplomatic reply. You could with some >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>more
space"
"And also some more staff"
"Indeed"
The staff were working under not the easiest of conditions >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>and
showing
great
calmness.
On leaving I noticed a sign offering for the clients to give >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>feedback
on
their experience. Really, are they serious, I thought then >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>thought
maybe
everyone should suggest that the new Health Minister do a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>tour
of
duty
doing
what the people they serve experience.
One thing for sure it can be done better and should be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>better.
This
is
the
front end of the public health system which should be easy >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to
get
right,
for
everyone. A few improvements and some little funding is all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that
is
required. This is low hanging fruit.
Gordon - there is a lot of low-handing fruit with Health. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Take end-of-life palliative care:
https://www.hospice.org.nz/
This is an overall view. Now look at a specific hospice >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>organisation:
https://www.hospicemn.org.nz/page/about/
Note that Hospice NZ claims that the government funds around >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>50%
of
the cost of service provision - but for Hospice Mid-North >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that
is
just
over 30% - a situation that have got markedly worse over the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>last
6
years. I am one of many volunteers in a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>low-population-density
region
that keeps the lights on for an organisation dedicated to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>end-of-life
care for those that Health NZ declares to be afflicted with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>life-ending health issues.
So are you advocating that government should give priority to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a
large
increase in funding for hospices? That would be very expensive >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>-
why
do you consider it "low-hanging fruit"?
My post was quite straightforward but I will elucidate further. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I
am
advocating that Hospice funding be returned to the same level >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>of
cost
reimbursement for each Hospice organisation that the previous >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>National-led governments paid. This is not an increase as such >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>-
it
is to address cost inflation. This is reasonable given that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hospice
organisations are all not-for-profit charities and provide core >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>services that Health NZ would otherwise have to fund in full (or
otherwise). The balance of costs is met from continuous >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>fundraising.
I made no comment whatever on urgency or priority and I don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>understand how you arrived at any conclusion that I did. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I am commenting solely on Hospices. This is one that is in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>trouble:
I am not sure if either hospices or a blood collection centre >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>as
described by Gordon are appropriately described as the front >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>end
of
the public health system; but it is also unclear just what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>effect
increasing government funding would achieve in either case. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
https://tinyurl.com/bdbkdn57
They are in a relatively good space with 55% of costs covered. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hospice Mid-North (covers mid-Northland outside Whangarei) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>fares
far
worse. As a member I get up-to-date information and the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>funding
from
Health NZ covers just 34% of costs - just 3 years ago this was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>just
over 50%. They can continue because they receive significant >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>business
sponsorship and community support but both funding sources are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>stretched to the limit.
You have indicated that you believe funding for Hospices from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>government has fallen in recent years - do you have any evidence >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>of
that? Secondly, why do you believe that government needs to fund >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>such
services at all? These are not essential health costs, they are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>part
of normal life - in the lifetime of many living today there were >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>no
hospices. Where is the balance with personal and family >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>responsibilities?
that
are
unavailable in most hospitals.
An example of that is that hospices specialise in pain >>>>>>>>>>>>>>management,
something
that hospitals often struggle with. That is not the only example. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>If you were to do a tiny bit of research you would know that. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
times for having a blood sample taken - what sort of management >>>>>>>>>>>>>would
regard staff being busy as needing more staff so they were not >>>>>>>>>>>>>busy?
comment was wilfully ignorant.
works in a facility specialising in palliative care for those >>>>>>>>>>>severely
ill and dying.
services. Most hospitals are not as skilled in this essential >>>>>>>>>>service.
Stop
guessing and do some easy research.
We do not have hospices available to all communities . >>>>>>>>>>Exactly which is why we need more of them and why we need better >>>>>>>>>>funding.Do you?
. .
Charities exist primarily because of a need that is not otherwise >>>>>>>>>>>>provided
For hospices, it is really a matter of priorities - the charity >>>>>>>>>>>>>industry seems to be doing fairly well for a service that is not >>>>>>>>>>>>>needed by the majority of people - why should it be given priority >>>>>>>>>>>>>over for example resources in hospitals to bring down waiting lists
for surgery or specialist appointments? I would prefer that our >>>>>>>>>>>>>government goes for the spending that best improves the health of >>>>>>>>>>>>>our
nation - spending money on queues for blood samples, or a perceived
shortage of hospices may not be the most urgent priority, although >>>>>>>>>>>>>I
can see how that would appeal to the entitled wealthy . . . >>>>>>>>>>>>A good try Rich - but you are the one that is drifting now. >>>>>>>>>>>>Hospices are essential and if you did the research you would know >>>>>>>>>>>>that.
-
hospices are one such vital need.
Hospices did not exist until Mary Potter Hospice was set up in >>>>>>>>>>>Wellington in 1979. It was not seen as a vital need by the then >>>>>>>>>>>government, or I suspect any subsequent government. >>>>>>>>>>Irrelevant. It is essential now.
Do you believe
the new government will allocate any additional funding to hospices >>>>>>>>>>>in
the first budget?
I note your unsupported opinion; sorry I see otherIrrelevant annoying abuse.
needs in health that are more important; so there is a different >>>>>>>>>>>unsupported opinion for you to consider . . .
If you see unsupported personal opinions as abuse, why do you do it so >>>>>>>>>often?
I
do
not see opinions as abuse - ever! But you do! Interesting sociopathic >>>>>>>>behaviour.
The whole thread is about unsupported opinions. Crash believed that >>>>>>>the government should increase the amount it pays med labs for their >>>>>>>collection services. These are private companies who have tendered to >>>>>>>provide services; there is often more than one company providing those >>>>>>>services in larger locations - being busy is a sign of success - and >>>>>>>why there are conditions relating to work breaks in employee >>>>>>>agreements. Why would a government interfere in the workings of a >>>>>>>competitive market to ensure that the companies are even more >>>>>>>profitable?
Then Crash moved us to the issue of whether other private >>>>>>>organisations - in this case Hospices - should receive more government >>>>>>>money. They are of course also private organisations, albeit set up as >>>>>>>charitable trusts. I well remember the fund-raising for the Mary >>>>>>>Potter Hospice when it was first being set up. They had very >>>>>>>successful "High Society" events such as Balls with gowns and gloves >>>>>>>for the ladies and white tie and tails for the men - and lists of >>>>>>>substantial donors. From the Charities Commission website, there are >>>>>>>three trusts that comprise the organisation - with net assets as >>>>>>>follows:
Hospice Foundation $12,873, 319
Hospice Forever Foundation (also called Capital Endowment Trust: >>>>>>>$9,341, 148
Hospice Apartments Ltd $11,115,042
Giving a total capital value of $33,329,509
I suspect values of land and building may be at book value, but I have >>>>>>>not bothered to investigate.
I can confirm that it is a lovely place to provide the excellent >>>>>>>services that they do. Like a private hospital, it does not have the >>>>>>>harried, busy and short of space feel of a public hospital; Staff are >>>>>>>not perpetually busy like the staff at a public hospital; they are >>>>>>>well equipped, with staff that are well paid and have time to talk to >>>>>>>patients, in well furnished and quieter work conditions than a ward in >>>>>>>a public hospital, which is of course where many do die.
Now not all hospices are as well set up as Mary Potter Hospice; but >>>>>>>ask yourself - is putting government money into a hospice as urgent as >>>>>>>putting a bit more into enabling a public hospital to provide Tom, a >>>>>>>74 year old man who lives alone and has not been able to get to the >>>>>>>shops himself due to the need for a hip or knee operation that he has >>>>>>>been waiting six months to have? Is it as urgent as ensuring that a >>>>>>>single mother with small children has to rely on a food bank to >>>>>>>support her family?
Sorry, subsidising private organisations like hospices and private med >>>>>>>lab companies just does not seem to me to be the most urgent priority >>>>>>>for government funding, but you may have another unsupported opinion >>>>>>>to the contrary . . . Maybe the Health minister, whoever the next one >>>>>>>is, is not the only person that needs to get out more . . . >>>>>>Hospices provide something that hospitals cannot. Hospitals often refer >>>>>>patients to hospices. Clearly the current funding model fails to provide >>>>>>an
I cannot see what is wrong with that but you clearly do see something is >>>>>>wrong.
I see nothing wrong with what you have described either. I am merely >>>>>saying that I do not see increasing money from government to be the >>>>>most urgent priority for government.
change the topic almost every sentence.
No comment from you I see - no surprise there, hypocrisy is you personified.
As for unsupported opinions, every single opinion you have expressed in >>>>>>this
thread was and is unsupported.
Let me be clear - there is nothing wrong with that except that you >>>>>>complain
when others express such opinions. Talk about hypocrisy!
as irrefutable fact . . .
So what, I have made no comment on that and it is completely irrelevant. All >>i
So here is another unsupported opinion - I do not believe that if he >>>becomes Prime Minister, Luxon will allow any increase in funding for >>>hospices, or for medical laboratory collection services.
have done is correct your silly nonsense that hospices are not essential core >>health organisations.
all you have done is express an unsupported personalJust like you but apparently I am not permitted to do that but you are.
opinion.
The original poster called for additional funding for medlab services;And neither did you, you hypocritical little man - you merely made it political - only a moron does that.
a later poster called for additional funding for hospices. As is
usually the case, you addressed neither concern.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 22:46:10 -0000 (UTC), TonyI have. In spades.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:You have not,
On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 19:53:40 -0000 (UTC), TonyThat is a lie - provide an example or piss off.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Your hypocrisy is that you frequently claim your unsupported opinions >>>>as irrefutable fact . . .
On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 07:19:00 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:That is a lie - that is absolutelyu not what you said during this thread. >>>>>You
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 3 Nov 2023 00:26:17 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:essential service. So the money comes from charitable works and >>>>>>>volunteers.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 23:33:59 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:No more so than you and that is well demonstrated. The differenece is >>>>>>>>>that
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 21:58:58 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:As already stated, hospices are specialists in pain management and >>>>>>>>>>>other
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:That does not mean that without a hospice pain management is not >>>>>>>>>>>>available through hospitals. This is not an area of medicine that >>>>>>>>>>>>only
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 20:13:13 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Pain management is a hospice speciality - I merely pointed out that
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:We seem to have drifted away from the initial comment about waiting
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 14:04:37 +1300, Crash >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><nogood@dontbother.invalid>Hospices are absolutely essential health costs. They provide >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>services
wrote:
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 10:53:39 +1300, Rich80105 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><Rich80105@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 20:11:06 +1300, Crash >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:
On 1 Nov 2023 02:59:15 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
There has been many column inches about the state of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>health
system
in
NZ.
Not of alot of it praise in them.
Recently I needed to give a blood sample. Picked a site >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>closeby
and
presented
myself at 8:45am on a week day. There were about 10 car >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>parking
spaces
with
had great activity as the clients came and left. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
As I was getting out of the car a couple of men came out and
leant
against
their car. They seemed to be waiting. I walked over to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>entrance
and
slid
the door ajar. First impression it was busy and second was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that
there
was
no
room to swing a dead cat as my Grand Mother would say. One >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>needed
to
be
careful as there was only enough room to move with care. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The inquiry counter was behind a row of chairs with people >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>waiting
on
them.
The digtial registration process functioned rather well. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Once
you
could
read
the instructions or if you had forgetten. There was the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>usual
number
of
under 5 year olds who got under peoples feet. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Three infirm people (eldery) came in and straight away were >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>offered
a
seat.
(This Jacina is what being kind means). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I came to the top of the queue and was ushed into a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>makeshift
(temporary)
room
which looked as if it was going to stay for some time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"Bit busy to-day" I said.
"Yes it always this way"
"Been waiting long?"
"Long enough came my diplomatic reply. You could with some >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>more
space"
"And also some more staff"
"Indeed"
The staff were working under not the easiest of conditions >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>and
showing
great
calmness.
On leaving I noticed a sign offering for the clients to give
feedback
on
their experience. Really, are they serious, I thought then >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>thought
maybe
everyone should suggest that the new Health Minister do a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>tour
of
duty
doing
what the people they serve experience.
One thing for sure it can be done better and should be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>better.
This
is
the
front end of the public health system which should be easy >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to
get
right,
for
everyone. A few improvements and some little funding is all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that
is
required. This is low hanging fruit.
Gordon - there is a lot of low-handing fruit with Health. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Take end-of-life palliative care:
https://www.hospice.org.nz/
This is an overall view. Now look at a specific hospice >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>organisation:
https://www.hospicemn.org.nz/page/about/
Note that Hospice NZ claims that the government funds around >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>50%
of
the cost of service provision - but for Hospice Mid-North >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that
is
just
over 30% - a situation that have got markedly worse over the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>last
6
years. I am one of many volunteers in a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>low-population-density
region
that keeps the lights on for an organisation dedicated to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>end-of-life
care for those that Health NZ declares to be afflicted with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>life-ending health issues.
So are you advocating that government should give priority to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a
large
increase in funding for hospices? That would be very expensive
-
why
do you consider it "low-hanging fruit"?
My post was quite straightforward but I will elucidate further.
I
am
advocating that Hospice funding be returned to the same level >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>of
cost
reimbursement for each Hospice organisation that the previous >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>National-led governments paid. This is not an increase as such
-
it
is to address cost inflation. This is reasonable given that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hospice
organisations are all not-for-profit charities and provide core
services that Health NZ would otherwise have to fund in full (or
otherwise). The balance of costs is met from continuous >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>fundraising.
I made no comment whatever on urgency or priority and I don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>understand how you arrived at any conclusion that I did. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I am commenting solely on Hospices. This is one that is in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>trouble:
I am not sure if either hospices or a blood collection centre >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>as
described by Gordon are appropriately described as the front >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>end
of
the public health system; but it is also unclear just what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>effect
increasing government funding would achieve in either case. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
https://tinyurl.com/bdbkdn57
They are in a relatively good space with 55% of costs covered. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hospice Mid-North (covers mid-Northland outside Whangarei) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>fares
far
worse. As a member I get up-to-date information and the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>funding
from
Health NZ covers just 34% of costs - just 3 years ago this was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>just
over 50%. They can continue because they receive significant >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>business
sponsorship and community support but both funding sources are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>stretched to the limit.
You have indicated that you believe funding for Hospices from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>government has fallen in recent years - do you have any evidence
of
that? Secondly, why do you believe that government needs to fund
such
services at all? These are not essential health costs, they are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>part
of normal life - in the lifetime of many living today there were
no
hospices. Where is the balance with personal and family >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>responsibilities?
that
are
unavailable in most hospitals.
An example of that is that hospices specialise in pain >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>management,
something
that hospitals often struggle with. That is not the only example.
If you were to do a tiny bit of research you would know that. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
times for having a blood sample taken - what sort of management >>>>>>>>>>>>>>would
regard staff being busy as needing more staff so they were not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>busy?
your
comment was wilfully ignorant.
works in a facility specialising in palliative care for those >>>>>>>>>>>>severely
ill and dying.
services. Most hospitals are not as skilled in this essential >>>>>>>>>>>service.
Stop
guessing and do some easy research.
We do not have hospices available to all communities . >>>>>>>>>>>Exactly which is why we need more of them and why we need better >>>>>>>>>>>funding.Do you?
. .
Charities exist primarily because of a need that is not otherwise >>>>>>>>>>>>>provided
For hospices, it is really a matter of priorities - the charity >>>>>>>>>>>>>>industry seems to be doing fairly well for a service that is not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>needed by the majority of people - why should it be given priority
over for example resources in hospitals to bring down waiting lists
for surgery or specialist appointments? I would prefer that our >>>>>>>>>>>>>>government goes for the spending that best improves the health of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>our
nation - spending money on queues for blood samples, or a perceived
shortage of hospices may not be the most urgent priority, although
I
can see how that would appeal to the entitled wealthy . . . >>>>>>>>>>>>>A good try Rich - but you are the one that is drifting now. >>>>>>>>>>>>>Hospices are essential and if you did the research you would know >>>>>>>>>>>>>that.
-
hospices are one such vital need.
Hospices did not exist until Mary Potter Hospice was set up in >>>>>>>>>>>>Wellington in 1979. It was not seen as a vital need by the then >>>>>>>>>>>>government, or I suspect any subsequent government. >>>>>>>>>>>Irrelevant. It is essential now.
Do you believe
the new government will allocate any additional funding to hospices >>>>>>>>>>>>in
the first budget?
I note your unsupported opinion; sorry I see other >>>>>>>>>>>>needs in health that are more important; so there is a different >>>>>>>>>>>>unsupported opinion for you to consider . . .Irrelevant annoying abuse.
If you see unsupported personal opinions as abuse, why do you do it so
often?
I
do
not see opinions as abuse - ever! But you do! Interesting sociopathic >>>>>>>>>behaviour.
The whole thread is about unsupported opinions. Crash believed that >>>>>>>>the government should increase the amount it pays med labs for their >>>>>>>>collection services. These are private companies who have tendered to >>>>>>>>provide services; there is often more than one company providing those >>>>>>>>services in larger locations - being busy is a sign of success - and >>>>>>>>why there are conditions relating to work breaks in employee >>>>>>>>agreements. Why would a government interfere in the workings of a >>>>>>>>competitive market to ensure that the companies are even more >>>>>>>>profitable?
Then Crash moved us to the issue of whether other private >>>>>>>>organisations - in this case Hospices - should receive more government >>>>>>>>money. They are of course also private organisations, albeit set up as >>>>>>>>charitable trusts. I well remember the fund-raising for the Mary >>>>>>>>Potter Hospice when it was first being set up. They had very >>>>>>>>successful "High Society" events such as Balls with gowns and gloves >>>>>>>>for the ladies and white tie and tails for the men - and lists of >>>>>>>>substantial donors. From the Charities Commission website, there are >>>>>>>>three trusts that comprise the organisation - with net assets as >>>>>>>>follows:
Hospice Foundation $12,873, 319
Hospice Forever Foundation (also called Capital Endowment Trust: >>>>>>>>$9,341, 148
Hospice Apartments Ltd $11,115,042
Giving a total capital value of $33,329,509
I suspect values of land and building may be at book value, but I have >>>>>>>>not bothered to investigate.
I can confirm that it is a lovely place to provide the excellent >>>>>>>>services that they do. Like a private hospital, it does not have the >>>>>>>>harried, busy and short of space feel of a public hospital; Staff are >>>>>>>>not perpetually busy like the staff at a public hospital; they are >>>>>>>>well equipped, with staff that are well paid and have time to talk to >>>>>>>>patients, in well furnished and quieter work conditions than a ward in >>>>>>>>a public hospital, which is of course where many do die.
Now not all hospices are as well set up as Mary Potter Hospice; but >>>>>>>>ask yourself - is putting government money into a hospice as urgent as >>>>>>>>putting a bit more into enabling a public hospital to provide Tom, a >>>>>>>>74 year old man who lives alone and has not been able to get to the >>>>>>>>shops himself due to the need for a hip or knee operation that he has >>>>>>>>been waiting six months to have? Is it as urgent as ensuring that a >>>>>>>>single mother with small children has to rely on a food bank to >>>>>>>>support her family?
Sorry, subsidising private organisations like hospices and private med >>>>>>>>lab companies just does not seem to me to be the most urgent priority >>>>>>>>for government funding, but you may have another unsupported opinion >>>>>>>>to the contrary . . . Maybe the Health minister, whoever the next one >>>>>>>>is, is not the only person that needs to get out more . . . >>>>>>>Hospices provide something that hospitals cannot. Hospitals often refer >>>>>>>patients to hospices. Clearly the current funding model fails to provide >>>>>>>an
I cannot see what is wrong with that but you clearly do see something is >>>>>>>wrong.
I see nothing wrong with what you have described either. I am merely >>>>>>saying that I do not see increasing money from government to be the >>>>>>most urgent priority for government.
change the topic almost every sentence.
No comment from you I see - no surprise there, hypocrisy is you personified.
As for unsupported opinions, every single opinion you have expressed in >>>>>>>this
thread was and is unsupported.
Let me be clear - there is nothing wrong with that except that you >>>>>>>complain
when others express such opinions. Talk about hypocrisy!
So what, I have made no comment on that and it is completely irrelevant. All >>>i
So here is another unsupported opinion - I do not believe that if he >>>>becomes Prime Minister, Luxon will allow any increase in funding for >>>>hospices, or for medical laboratory collection services.
have done is correct your silly nonsense that hospices are not essential core
health organisations.
I questioned the need to increase payments under a commercial contractall you have done is express an unsupported personalJust like you but apparently I am not permitted to do that but you are.
opinion.
Fuck off you hypocritical little boy.
And neither did you, you hypocritical little man - you merely made it political
The original poster called for additional funding for medlab services;
a later poster called for additional funding for hospices. As is
usually the case, you addressed neither concern.
- only a moron does that.
On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 01:32:37 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 22:46:10 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:You ha
On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 19:53:40 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:That is a lie - provide an example or piss off.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Your hypocrisy is that you frequently claim your unsupported opinions >>>>>as irrefutable fact . . .
On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 07:19:00 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:That is a lie - that is absolutelyu not what you said during this thread. >>>>>>You
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 3 Nov 2023 00:26:17 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:an
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 23:33:59 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:No more so than you and that is well demonstrated. The differenece is >>>>>>>>>>that
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 21:58:58 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:As already stated, hospices are specialists in pain management and >>>>>>>>>>>>other
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:That does not mean that without a hospice pain management is not >>>>>>>>>>>>>available through hospitals. This is not an area of medicine that >>>>>>>>>>>>>only
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 20:13:13 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Pain management is a hospice speciality - I merely pointed out >>>>>>>>>>>>>>that
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:We seem to have drifted away from the initial comment about >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>waiting
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 14:04:37 +1300, Crash >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><nogood@dontbother.invalid>Hospices are absolutely essential health costs. They provide >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>services
wrote:
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 10:53:39 +1300, Rich80105 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><Rich80105@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 20:11:06 +1300, Crash >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:
On 1 Nov 2023 02:59:15 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>wrote:
There has been many column inches about the state of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>health
system
in
NZ.
Not of alot of it praise in them.
Recently I needed to give a blood sample. Picked a site >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>closeby
and
presented
myself at 8:45am on a week day. There were about 10 car >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>parking
spaces
with
had great activity as the clients came and left. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
As I was getting out of the car a couple of men came out >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>and
leant
against
their car. They seemed to be waiting. I walked over to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>entrance
and
slid
the door ajar. First impression it was busy and second was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that
there
was
no
room to swing a dead cat as my Grand Mother would say. One >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>needed
to
be
careful as there was only enough room to move with care. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The inquiry counter was behind a row of chairs with people >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>waiting
on
them.
The digtial registration process functioned rather well. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Once
you
could
read
the instructions or if you had forgetten. There was the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>usual
number
of
under 5 year olds who got under peoples feet. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Three infirm people (eldery) came in and straight away >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>were
offered
a
seat.
(This Jacina is what being kind means). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I came to the top of the queue and was ushed into a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>makeshift
(temporary)
room
which looked as if it was going to stay for some time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"Bit busy to-day" I said.
"Yes it always this way"
"Been waiting long?"
"Long enough came my diplomatic reply. You could with some >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>more
space"
"And also some more staff"
"Indeed"
The staff were working under not the easiest of conditions >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>and
showing
great
calmness.
On leaving I noticed a sign offering for the clients to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>give
feedback
on
their experience. Really, are they serious, I thought then >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>thought
maybe
everyone should suggest that the new Health Minister do a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>tour
of
duty
doing
what the people they serve experience. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
One thing for sure it can be done better and should be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>better.
This
is
the
front end of the public health system which should be easy >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to
get
right,
for
everyone. A few improvements and some little funding is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>all
that
is
required. This is low hanging fruit.
Gordon - there is a lot of low-handing fruit with Health. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Take end-of-life palliative care:
https://www.hospice.org.nz/
This is an overall view. Now look at a specific hospice >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>organisation:
Note that Hospice NZ claims that the government funds >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>aroundhttps://www.hospicemn.org.nz/page/about/ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
50%
of
the cost of service provision - but for Hospice Mid-North >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that
is
just
over 30% - a situation that have got markedly worse over >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the
last
6
years. I am one of many volunteers in a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>low-population-density
region
that keeps the lights on for an organisation dedicated to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>end-of-life
care for those that Health NZ declares to be afflicted with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>life-ending health issues.
So are you advocating that government should give priority >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to
a
large
increase in funding for hospices? That would be very >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>expensive
-
why
do you consider it "low-hanging fruit"?
My post was quite straightforward but I will elucidate >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>further.
I
am
advocating that Hospice funding be returned to the same level >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>of
cost
reimbursement for each Hospice organisation that the previous >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>National-led governments paid. This is not an increase as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>such
-
it
is to address cost inflation. This is reasonable given that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hospice
organisations are all not-for-profit charities and provide >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>core
services that Health NZ would otherwise have to fund in full >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(or
otherwise). The balance of costs is met from continuous >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>fundraising.
I made no comment whatever on urgency or priority and I don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>understand how you arrived at any conclusion that I did. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I am commenting solely on Hospices. This is one that is in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>trouble:
I am not sure if either hospices or a blood collection >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>centre
as
described by Gordon are appropriately described as the front >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>end
of
the public health system; but it is also unclear just what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>effect
increasing government funding would achieve in either case. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
https://tinyurl.com/bdbkdn57
They are in a relatively good space with 55% of costs >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>covered.
Hospice Mid-North (covers mid-Northland outside Whangarei) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>fares
far
worse. As a member I get up-to-date information and the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>funding
from
Health NZ covers just 34% of costs - just 3 years ago this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>was
just
over 50%. They can continue because they receive significant >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>business
sponsorship and community support but both funding sources are
stretched to the limit.
You have indicated that you believe funding for Hospices from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>government has fallen in recent years - do you have any >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>evidence
of
that? Secondly, why do you believe that government needs to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>fund
such
services at all? These are not essential health costs, they >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>are
part
of normal life - in the lifetime of many living today there >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>were
no
hospices. Where is the balance with personal and family >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>responsibilities?
that
are
unavailable in most hospitals.
An example of that is that hospices specialise in pain >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>management,
something
that hospitals often struggle with. That is not the only >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>example.
If you were to do a tiny bit of research you would know that. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
times for having a blood sample taken - what sort of management >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>would
regard staff being busy as needing more staff so they were not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>busy?
your
comment was wilfully ignorant.
works in a facility specialising in palliative care for those >>>>>>>>>>>>>severely
ill and dying.
services. Most hospitals are not as skilled in this essential >>>>>>>>>>>>service.
Stop
guessing and do some easy research.
We do not have hospices available to all communities . >>>>>>>>>>>>Exactly which is why we need more of them and why we need better >>>>>>>>>>>>funding.Do you?
. .
Charities exist primarily because of a need that is not otherwise >>>>>>>>>>>>>>provided
For hospices, it is really a matter of priorities - the charity >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>industry seems to be doing fairly well for a service that is not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>needed by the majority of people - why should it be given >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>priority
over for example resources in hospitals to bring down waiting >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>lists
for surgery or specialist appointments? I would prefer that our >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>government goes for the spending that best improves the health >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>of
our
nation - spending money on queues for blood samples, or a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>perceived
shortage of hospices may not be the most urgent priority, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>although
I
can see how that would appeal to the entitled wealthy . . . >>>>>>>>>>>>>>A good try Rich - but you are the one that is drifting now. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hospices are essential and if you did the research you would know >>>>>>>>>>>>>>that.
-
hospices are one such vital need.
Hospices did not exist until Mary Potter Hospice was set up in >>>>>>>>>>>>>Wellington in 1979. It was not seen as a vital need by the then >>>>>>>>>>>>>government, or I suspect any subsequent government. >>>>>>>>>>>>Irrelevant. It is essential now.
Do you believe
the new government will allocate any additional funding to >>>>>>>>>>>>>hospices
in
the first budget?
I note your unsupported opinion; sorry I see other >>>>>>>>>>>>>needs in health that are more important; so there is a different >>>>>>>>>>>>>unsupported opinion for you to consider . . . >>>>>>>>>>>>Irrelevant annoying abuse.
If you see unsupported personal opinions as abuse, why do you do it >>>>>>>>>>>so
often?
I
do
not see opinions as abuse - ever! But you do! Interesting sociopathic >>>>>>>>>>behaviour.
The whole thread is about unsupported opinions. Crash believed that >>>>>>>>>the government should increase the amount it pays med labs for their >>>>>>>>>collection services. These are private companies who have tendered to >>>>>>>>>provide services; there is often more than one company providing those >>>>>>>>>services in larger locations - being busy is a sign of success - and >>>>>>>>>why there are conditions relating to work breaks in employee >>>>>>>>>agreements. Why would a government interfere in the workings of a >>>>>>>>>competitive market to ensure that the companies are even more >>>>>>>>>profitable?
Then Crash moved us to the issue of whether other private >>>>>>>>>organisations - in this case Hospices - should receive more government >>>>>>>>>money. They are of course also private organisations, albeit set up as >>>>>>>>>charitable trusts. I well remember the fund-raising for the Mary >>>>>>>>>Potter Hospice when it was first being set up. They had very >>>>>>>>>successful "High Society" events such as Balls with gowns and gloves >>>>>>>>>for the ladies and white tie and tails for the men - and lists of >>>>>>>>>substantial donors. From the Charities Commission website, there are >>>>>>>>>three trusts that comprise the organisation - with net assets as >>>>>>>>>follows:
Hospice Foundation $12,873, 319
Hospice Forever Foundation (also called Capital Endowment Trust: >>>>>>>>>$9,341, 148
Hospice Apartments Ltd $11,115,042
Giving a total capital value of $33,329,509
I suspect values of land and building may be at book value, but I have >>>>>>>>>not bothered to investigate.
I can confirm that it is a lovely place to provide the excellent >>>>>>>>>services that they do. Like a private hospital, it does not have the >>>>>>>>>harried, busy and short of space feel of a public hospital; Staff are >>>>>>>>>not perpetually busy like the staff at a public hospital; they are >>>>>>>>>well equipped, with staff that are well paid and have time to talk to >>>>>>>>>patients, in well furnished and quieter work conditions than a ward in >>>>>>>>>a public hospital, which is of course where many do die.
Now not all hospices are as well set up as Mary Potter Hospice; but >>>>>>>>>ask yourself - is putting government money into a hospice as urgent as >>>>>>>>>putting a bit more into enabling a public hospital to provide Tom, a >>>>>>>>>74 year old man who lives alone and has not been able to get to the >>>>>>>>>shops himself due to the need for a hip or knee operation that he has >>>>>>>>>been waiting six months to have? Is it as urgent as ensuring that a >>>>>>>>>single mother with small children has to rely on a food bank to >>>>>>>>>support her family?
Sorry, subsidising private organisations like hospices and private med >>>>>>>>>lab companies just does not seem to me to be the most urgent priority >>>>>>>>>for government funding, but you may have another unsupported opinion >>>>>>>>>to the contrary . . . Maybe the Health minister, whoever the next one >>>>>>>>>is, is not the only person that needs to get out more . . . >>>>>>>>Hospices provide something that hospitals cannot. Hospitals often refer >>>>>>>>patients to hospices. Clearly the current funding model fails to >>>>>>>>provide
essential service. So the money comes from charitable works and >>>>>>>>volunteers.
I cannot see what is wrong with that but you clearly do see something >>>>>>>>is
wrong.
I see nothing wrong with what you have described either. I am merely >>>>>>>saying that I do not see increasing money from government to be the >>>>>>>most urgent priority for government.
change the topic almost every sentence.
No comment from you I see - no surprise there, hypocrisy is you >>>>>>personified.
As for unsupported opinions, every single opinion you have expressed in >>>>>>>>this
thread was and is unsupported.
Let me be clear - there is nothing wrong with that except that you >>>>>>>>complain
when others express such opinions. Talk about hypocrisy!
So what, I have made no comment on that and it is completely irrelevant. >>>>All
So here is another unsupported opinion - I do not believe that if he >>>>>becomes Prime Minister, Luxon will allow any increase in funding for >>>>>hospices, or for medical laboratory collection services.
i
have done is correct your silly nonsense that hospices are not essential >>>>core
health organisations.
On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 01:32:37 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 22:46:10 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:You ha
On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 19:53:40 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:That is a lie - provide an example or piss off.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Your hypocrisy is that you frequently claim your unsupported opinions >>>>>as irrefutable fact . . .
On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 07:19:00 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:That is a lie - that is absolutelyu not what you said during this thread. >>>>>>You
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 3 Nov 2023 00:26:17 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:an
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 23:33:59 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:No more so than you and that is well demonstrated. The differenece is >>>>>>>>>>that
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 21:58:58 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:As already stated, hospices are specialists in pain management and >>>>>>>>>>>>other
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:That does not mean that without a hospice pain management is not >>>>>>>>>>>>>available through hospitals. This is not an area of medicine that >>>>>>>>>>>>>only
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 20:13:13 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Pain management is a hospice speciality - I merely pointed out >>>>>>>>>>>>>>that
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:We seem to have drifted away from the initial comment about >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>waiting
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 14:04:37 +1300, Crash >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><nogood@dontbother.invalid>Hospices are absolutely essential health costs. They provide >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>services
wrote:
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 10:53:39 +1300, Rich80105 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><Rich80105@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 20:11:06 +1300, Crash >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:
On 1 Nov 2023 02:59:15 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>wrote:
There has been many column inches about the state of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>health
system
in
NZ.
Not of alot of it praise in them.
Recently I needed to give a blood sample. Picked a site >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>closeby
and
presented
myself at 8:45am on a week day. There were about 10 car >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>parking
spaces
with
had great activity as the clients came and left. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
As I was getting out of the car a couple of men came out >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>and
leant
against
their car. They seemed to be waiting. I walked over to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>entrance
and
slid
the door ajar. First impression it was busy and second was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that
there
was
no
room to swing a dead cat as my Grand Mother would say. One >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>needed
to
be
careful as there was only enough room to move with care. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The inquiry counter was behind a row of chairs with people >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>waiting
on
them.
The digtial registration process functioned rather well. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Once
you
could
read
the instructions or if you had forgetten. There was the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>usual
number
of
under 5 year olds who got under peoples feet. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Three infirm people (eldery) came in and straight away >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>were
offered
a
seat.
(This Jacina is what being kind means). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I came to the top of the queue and was ushed into a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>makeshift
(temporary)
room
which looked as if it was going to stay for some time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"Bit busy to-day" I said.
"Yes it always this way"
"Been waiting long?"
"Long enough came my diplomatic reply. You could with some >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>more
space"
"And also some more staff"
"Indeed"
The staff were working under not the easiest of conditions >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>and
showing
great
calmness.
On leaving I noticed a sign offering for the clients to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>give
feedback
on
their experience. Really, are they serious, I thought then >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>thought
maybe
everyone should suggest that the new Health Minister do a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>tour
of
duty
doing
what the people they serve experience. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
One thing for sure it can be done better and should be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>better.
This
is
the
front end of the public health system which should be easy >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to
get
right,
for
everyone. A few improvements and some little funding is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>all
that
is
required. This is low hanging fruit.
Gordon - there is a lot of low-handing fruit with Health. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Take end-of-life palliative care:
https://www.hospice.org.nz/
This is an overall view. Now look at a specific hospice >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>organisation:
Note that Hospice NZ claims that the government funds >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>aroundhttps://www.hospicemn.org.nz/page/about/ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
50%
of
the cost of service provision - but for Hospice Mid-North >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that
is
just
over 30% - a situation that have got markedly worse over >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the
last
6
years. I am one of many volunteers in a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>low-population-density
region
that keeps the lights on for an organisation dedicated to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>end-of-life
care for those that Health NZ declares to be afflicted with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>life-ending health issues.
So are you advocating that government should give priority >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to
a
large
increase in funding for hospices? That would be very >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>expensive
-
why
do you consider it "low-hanging fruit"?
My post was quite straightforward but I will elucidate >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>further.
I
am
advocating that Hospice funding be returned to the same level >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>of
cost
reimbursement for each Hospice organisation that the previous >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>National-led governments paid. This is not an increase as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>such
-
it
is to address cost inflation. This is reasonable given that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hospice
organisations are all not-for-profit charities and provide >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>core
services that Health NZ would otherwise have to fund in full >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(or
otherwise). The balance of costs is met from continuous >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>fundraising.
I made no comment whatever on urgency or priority and I don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>understand how you arrived at any conclusion that I did. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I am commenting solely on Hospices. This is one that is in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>trouble:
I am not sure if either hospices or a blood collection >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>centre
as
described by Gordon are appropriately described as the front >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>end
of
the public health system; but it is also unclear just what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>effect
increasing government funding would achieve in either case. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
https://tinyurl.com/bdbkdn57
They are in a relatively good space with 55% of costs >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>covered.
Hospice Mid-North (covers mid-Northland outside Whangarei) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>fares
far
worse. As a member I get up-to-date information and the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>funding
from
Health NZ covers just 34% of costs - just 3 years ago this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>was
just
over 50%. They can continue because they receive significant >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>business
sponsorship and community support but both funding sources are
stretched to the limit.
You have indicated that you believe funding for Hospices from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>government has fallen in recent years - do you have any >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>evidence
of
that? Secondly, why do you believe that government needs to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>fund
such
services at all? These are not essential health costs, they >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>are
part
of normal life - in the lifetime of many living today there >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>were
no
hospices. Where is the balance with personal and family >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>responsibilities?
that
are
unavailable in most hospitals.
An example of that is that hospices specialise in pain >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>management,
something
that hospitals often struggle with. That is not the only >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>example.
If you were to do a tiny bit of research you would know that. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
times for having a blood sample taken - what sort of management >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>would
regard staff being busy as needing more staff so they were not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>busy?
your
comment was wilfully ignorant.
works in a facility specialising in palliative care for those >>>>>>>>>>>>>severely
ill and dying.
services. Most hospitals are not as skilled in this essential >>>>>>>>>>>>service.
Stop
guessing and do some easy research.
We do not have hospices available to all communities . >>>>>>>>>>>>Exactly which is why we need more of them and why we need better >>>>>>>>>>>>funding.Do you?
. .
Charities exist primarily because of a need that is not otherwise >>>>>>>>>>>>>>provided
For hospices, it is really a matter of priorities - the charity >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>industry seems to be doing fairly well for a service that is not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>needed by the majority of people - why should it be given >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>priority
over for example resources in hospitals to bring down waiting >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>lists
for surgery or specialist appointments? I would prefer that our >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>government goes for the spending that best improves the health >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>of
our
nation - spending money on queues for blood samples, or a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>perceived
shortage of hospices may not be the most urgent priority, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>although
I
can see how that would appeal to the entitled wealthy . . . >>>>>>>>>>>>>>A good try Rich - but you are the one that is drifting now. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hospices are essential and if you did the research you would know >>>>>>>>>>>>>>that.
-
hospices are one such vital need.
Hospices did not exist until Mary Potter Hospice was set up in >>>>>>>>>>>>>Wellington in 1979. It was not seen as a vital need by the then >>>>>>>>>>>>>government, or I suspect any subsequent government. >>>>>>>>>>>>Irrelevant. It is essential now.
Do you believe
the new government will allocate any additional funding to >>>>>>>>>>>>>hospices
in
the first budget?
I note your unsupported opinion; sorry I see other >>>>>>>>>>>>>needs in health that are more important; so there is a different >>>>>>>>>>>>>unsupported opinion for you to consider . . . >>>>>>>>>>>>Irrelevant annoying abuse.
If you see unsupported personal opinions as abuse, why do you do it >>>>>>>>>>>so
often?
I
do
not see opinions as abuse - ever! But you do! Interesting sociopathic >>>>>>>>>>behaviour.
The whole thread is about unsupported opinions. Crash believed that >>>>>>>>>the government should increase the amount it pays med labs for their >>>>>>>>>collection services. These are private companies who have tendered to >>>>>>>>>provide services; there is often more than one company providing those >>>>>>>>>services in larger locations - being busy is a sign of success - and >>>>>>>>>why there are conditions relating to work breaks in employee >>>>>>>>>agreements. Why would a government interfere in the workings of a >>>>>>>>>competitive market to ensure that the companies are even more >>>>>>>>>profitable?
Then Crash moved us to the issue of whether other private >>>>>>>>>organisations - in this case Hospices - should receive more government >>>>>>>>>money. They are of course also private organisations, albeit set up as >>>>>>>>>charitable trusts. I well remember the fund-raising for the Mary >>>>>>>>>Potter Hospice when it was first being set up. They had very >>>>>>>>>successful "High Society" events such as Balls with gowns and gloves >>>>>>>>>for the ladies and white tie and tails for the men - and lists of >>>>>>>>>substantial donors. From the Charities Commission website, there are >>>>>>>>>three trusts that comprise the organisation - with net assets as >>>>>>>>>follows:
Hospice Foundation $12,873, 319
Hospice Forever Foundation (also called Capital Endowment Trust: >>>>>>>>>$9,341, 148
Hospice Apartments Ltd $11,115,042
Giving a total capital value of $33,329,509
I suspect values of land and building may be at book value, but I have >>>>>>>>>not bothered to investigate.
I can confirm that it is a lovely place to provide the excellent >>>>>>>>>services that they do. Like a private hospital, it does not have the >>>>>>>>>harried, busy and short of space feel of a public hospital; Staff are >>>>>>>>>not perpetually busy like the staff at a public hospital; they are >>>>>>>>>well equipped, with staff that are well paid and have time to talk to >>>>>>>>>patients, in well furnished and quieter work conditions than a ward in >>>>>>>>>a public hospital, which is of course where many do die.
Now not all hospices are as well set up as Mary Potter Hospice; but >>>>>>>>>ask yourself - is putting government money into a hospice as urgent as >>>>>>>>>putting a bit more into enabling a public hospital to provide Tom, a >>>>>>>>>74 year old man who lives alone and has not been able to get to the >>>>>>>>>shops himself due to the need for a hip or knee operation that he has >>>>>>>>>been waiting six months to have? Is it as urgent as ensuring that a >>>>>>>>>single mother with small children has to rely on a food bank to >>>>>>>>>support her family?
Sorry, subsidising private organisations like hospices and private med >>>>>>>>>lab companies just does not seem to me to be the most urgent priority >>>>>>>>>for government funding, but you may have another unsupported opinion >>>>>>>>>to the contrary . . . Maybe the Health minister, whoever the next one >>>>>>>>>is, is not the only person that needs to get out more . . . >>>>>>>>Hospices provide something that hospitals cannot. Hospitals often refer >>>>>>>>patients to hospices. Clearly the current funding model fails to >>>>>>>>provide
essential service. So the money comes from charitable works and >>>>>>>>volunteers.
I cannot see what is wrong with that but you clearly do see something >>>>>>>>is
wrong.
I see nothing wrong with what you have described either. I am merely >>>>>>>saying that I do not see increasing money from government to be the >>>>>>>most urgent priority for government.
change the topic almost every sentence.
No comment from you I see - no surprise there, hypocrisy is you >>>>>>personified.
As for unsupported opinions, every single opinion you have expressed in >>>>>>>>this
thread was and is unsupported.
Let me be clear - there is nothing wrong with that except that you >>>>>>>>complain
when others express such opinions. Talk about hypocrisy!
So what, I have made no comment on that and it is completely irrelevant. >>>>All
So here is another unsupported opinion - I do not believe that if he >>>>>becomes Prime Minister, Luxon will allow any increase in funding for >>>>>hospices, or for medical laboratory collection services.
i
have done is correct your silly nonsense that hospices are not essential >>>>core
health organisations.
On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 01:32:37 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 22:46:10 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
I questioned the need to increase payments under a commercial contractYou have no idea what I believe, one of your far from charming delusions.
just because a user of the service found them to be busy. Clearly you
do not believe in a competitive market!
I questioned the need for government to subsidise hospices - no-oneHospices came into being because hospitals were not doing as well as they could have. That is historically true.
has provided any evidence that such a subsidy is either needed or
desirable.
You have proved nothing, and corrected nothing, Tony. Live with it.I have corrected your idiocy and rudeness.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:And there you go again - deleting in the hope you can hide your
On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 01:32:37 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 22:46:10 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Removed for brevity since Rich has effectively changed the subject (at least >once!).
I guess we share that lack of understanding then - do you actuallyI questioned the need to increase payments under a commercial contractYou have no idea what I believe, one of your far from charming delusions.
just because a user of the service found them to be busy. Clearly you
do not believe in a competitive market!
So you have no evidence that subsidising hospices is either needed or desirable. I recall my introduction to the advantages of privateHospices came into being because hospitals were not doing as well as they could
I questioned the need for government to subsidise hospices - no-one
has provided any evidence that such a subsidy is either needed or >>desirable.
have. That is historically true.
I am sorry to have missed the attempt - perhaps that was in the partI have corrected your idiocy and rudeness.
You have proved nothing, and corrected nothing, Tony. Live with it.
On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 04:44:20 -0000 (UTC), TonyNothing is deleted, your favourite 5 year old mentor can show you how to read what has gone before. Brevity is good, your lies not so.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:And there you go again - deleting in the hope you can hide your
On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 01:32:37 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 22:46:10 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Removed for brevity since Rich has effectively changed the subject (at least >>once!).
mistakes and lack of understanding
Piss off you perverse and abusive little boy.I guess we share that lack of understanding then - do you actuallyI questioned the need to increase payments under a commercial contract >>>just because a user of the service found them to be busy. Clearly youYou have no idea what I believe, one of your far from charming delusions.
do not believe in a competitive market!
believe in anything, Tony?
Hospices and private hospitals are different subjects to everybody but you - your bias is showing.So you have no evidence that subsidising hospices is either needed or >desirable. I recall my introduction to the advantages of privateHospices came into being because hospitals were not doing as well as they >>could
I questioned the need for government to subsidise hospices - no-one
has provided any evidence that such a subsidy is either needed or >>>desirable.
have. That is historically true.
hospitals (paid for by health insurance) when I lived in Australia
many years ago - the advantage of private hospitals is that they have
single rooms, colour television and carpet on the floor. Hospices
provide similar benefits - but that does not mean that they justify >government subsidy.
The fact that you don't care about people dying in pain is now tantamount to an admission that you don't actually care about what happens to people ever. That has to be part of your political belief. What a sad creature you are.I am sorry to have missed the attempt - perhaps that was in the partI have corrected your idiocy and rudeness.
You have proved nothing, and corrected nothing, Tony. Live with it.
of the thread that you deleted because you could not understand it . .
.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 04:44:20 -0000 (UTC), TonyNothing is deleted, your favourite 5 year old mentor can show you how to read >what has gone before. Brevity is good, your lies not so.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:And there you go again - deleting in the hope you can hide your
On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 01:32:37 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 22:46:10 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Removed for brevity since Rich has effectively changed the subject (at least >>>once!).
mistakes and lack of understanding
Piss off you perverse and abusive little boy.
believe in anything, Tony?I questioned the need to increase payments under a commercial contract >>>>just because a user of the service found them to be busy. Clearly you >>>>do not believe in a competitive market!You have no idea what I believe, one of your far from charming delusions. >>I guess we share that lack of understanding then - do you actually
You have no understanding of the role of hospices, that is clear.
Hospices and private hospitals are different subjects to everybody but you - >your bias is showing.
So you have no evidence that subsidising hospices is either needed or >>desirable. I recall my introduction to the advantages of privateHospices came into being because hospitals were not doing as well as they >>>could
I questioned the need for government to subsidise hospices - no-one
has provided any evidence that such a subsidy is either needed or >>>>desirable.
have. That is historically true.
hospitals (paid for by health insurance) when I lived in Australia
many years ago - the advantage of private hospitals is that they have >>single rooms, colour television and carpet on the floor. Hospices
provide similar benefits - but that does not mean that they justify >>government subsidy.
I have showed you the reason for hospices but you simply ignore it and continue
your abuse. piss off.
The fact that you don't care about people dying in pain is now tantamount to an
I am sorry to have missed the attempt - perhaps that was in the partI have corrected your idiocy and rudeness.
You have proved nothing, and corrected nothing, Tony. Live with it.
of the thread that you deleted because you could not understand it . .
admission that you don't actually care about what happens to people ever. That >has to be part of your political belief. What a sad creature you are.
.
On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 05:40:14 -0000 (UTC), TonyThe main hospital in my area regularly refers pateints to the hospice because the hospice does the task better.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 04:44:20 -0000 (UTC), TonyNothing is deleted, your favourite 5 year old mentor can show you how to read >>what has gone before. Brevity is good, your lies not so.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:And there you go again - deleting in the hope you can hide your
On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 01:32:37 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 22:46:10 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Removed for brevity since Rich has effectively changed the subject (at >>>>least
once!).
mistakes and lack of understanding
Piss off you perverse and abusive little boy.
I questioned the need to increase payments under a commercial contract >>>>>just because a user of the service found them to be busy. Clearly you >>>>>do not believe in a competitive market!You have no idea what I believe, one of your far from charming delusions. >>>I guess we share that lack of understanding then - do you actually >>>believe in anything, Tony?
You have no understanding of the role of hospices, that is clear.
Hospices and private hospitals are different subjects to everybody but you - >>your bias is showing.
So you have no evidence that subsidising hospices is either needed or >>>desirable. I recall my introduction to the advantages of private >>>hospitals (paid for by health insurance) when I lived in AustraliaHospices came into being because hospitals were not doing as well as they >>>>could
I questioned the need for government to subsidise hospices - no-one >>>>>has provided any evidence that such a subsidy is either needed or >>>>>desirable.
have. That is historically true.
many years ago - the advantage of private hospitals is that they have >>>single rooms, colour television and carpet on the floor. Hospices
provide similar benefits - but that does not mean that they justify >>>government subsidy.
Correct. Hospices are charities, private hospitals are for-profit
service providers for those who can fund or afford medical treatment
from said for-profit service providers.
Hospices do not, and have never, charged those referred to them by
Health NZ for their services.Good on you for your support of your local >Hospice. I am also involved in my local one, they are an amazing orgaqnisation >and, as you have said, never charge their patients.
I have showed you the reason for hospices but you simply ignore it and >>continue
your abuse. piss off.
The fact that you don't care about people dying in pain is now tantamount to >>an
I am sorry to have missed the attempt - perhaps that was in the partI have corrected your idiocy and rudeness.
You have proved nothing, and corrected nothing, Tony. Live with it.
of the thread that you deleted because you could not understand it . .
admission that you don't actually care about what happens to people ever. >>That
has to be part of your political belief. What a sad creature you are.
Rich takes issue with my advocacy that Health NZ restore funding to >equivalent 2017 levels of cost reimbursement. That was expressed as a
hop on the new Government
.
--
Crash McBash
Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 05:40:14 -0000 (UTC), TonyThe main hospital in my area regularly refers pateints to the hospice because >the hospice does the task better.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 04:44:20 -0000 (UTC), TonyNothing is deleted, your favourite 5 year old mentor can show you how to read
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:And there you go again - deleting in the hope you can hide your >>>>mistakes and lack of understanding
On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 01:32:37 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 22:46:10 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Removed for brevity since Rich has effectively changed the subject (at >>>>>least
once!).
what has gone before. Brevity is good, your lies not so.
Piss off you perverse and abusive little boy.
I questioned the need to increase payments under a commercial contract >>>>>>just because a user of the service found them to be busy. Clearly you >>>>>>do not believe in a competitive market!You have no idea what I believe, one of your far from charming delusions. >>>>I guess we share that lack of understanding then - do you actually >>>>believe in anything, Tony?
You have no understanding of the role of hospices, that is clear.
Hospices and private hospitals are different subjects to everybody but you - >>>your bias is showing.
So you have no evidence that subsidising hospices is either needed or >>>>desirable. I recall my introduction to the advantages of private >>>>hospitals (paid for by health insurance) when I lived in AustraliaHospices came into being because hospitals were not doing as well as they >>>>>could
I questioned the need for government to subsidise hospices - no-one >>>>>>has provided any evidence that such a subsidy is either needed or >>>>>>desirable.
have. That is historically true.
many years ago - the advantage of private hospitals is that they have >>>>single rooms, colour television and carpet on the floor. Hospices >>>>provide similar benefits - but that does not mean that they justify >>>>government subsidy.
Correct. Hospices are charities, private hospitals are for-profit
service providers for those who can fund or afford medical treatment
from said for-profit service providers.
Hospices do not, and have never, charged those referred to them by
Health NZ for their services.Good on you for your support of your local >>Hospice. I am also involved in my local one, they are an amazing orgaqnisation
and, as you have said, never charge their patients.
It has not been shown that there has been any reduction - let us dealI have showed you the reason for hospices but you simply ignore it and >>>continue your abuse. piss off.
admission that you don't actually care about what happens to people ever. >>>That
I am sorry to have missed the attempt - perhaps that was in the part
You have proved nothing, and corrected nothing, Tony. Live with it. >>>>>I have corrected your idiocy and rudeness.
of the thread that you deleted because you could not understand it . . >>>The fact that you don't care about people dying in pain is now tantamount to >>>an
has to be part of your political belief. What a sad creature you are.
Rich takes issue with my advocacy that Health NZ restore funding to >>equivalent 2017 levels of cost reimbursement. That was expressed as a
hop on the new Government
.
--
Crash McBash
On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 19:09:50 -0000 (UTC), TonyI am addressing the need not the cost. Crash has addressed the funding.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 05:40:14 -0000 (UTC), TonyThe main hospital in my area regularly refers pateints to the hospice because >>the hospice does the task better.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 04:44:20 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Nothing is deleted, your favourite 5 year old mentor can show you how to >>>>read
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:And there you go again - deleting in the hope you can hide your >>>>>mistakes and lack of understanding
On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 01:32:37 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 22:46:10 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Removed for brevity since Rich has effectively changed the subject (at >>>>>>least
once!).
what has gone before. Brevity is good, your lies not so.
Piss off you perverse and abusive little boy.
I questioned the need to increase payments under a commercial contract >>>>>>>just because a user of the service found them to be busy. Clearly you >>>>>>>do not believe in a competitive market!You have no idea what I believe, one of your far from charming delusions. >>>>>I guess we share that lack of understanding then - do you actually >>>>>believe in anything, Tony?
You have no understanding of the role of hospices, that is clear.
Hospices and private hospitals are different subjects to everybody but you >>>>-
So you have no evidence that subsidising hospices is either needed or >>>>>desirable. I recall my introduction to the advantages of private >>>>>hospitals (paid for by health insurance) when I lived in Australia >>>>>many years ago - the advantage of private hospitals is that they have >>>>>single rooms, colour television and carpet on the floor. Hospices >>>>>provide similar benefits - but that does not mean that they justify >>>>>government subsidy.Hospices came into being because hospitals were not doing as well as they >>>>>>could
I questioned the need for government to subsidise hospices - no-one >>>>>>>has provided any evidence that such a subsidy is either needed or >>>>>>>desirable.
have. That is historically true.
your bias is showing.
Correct. Hospices are charities, private hospitals are for-profit >>>service providers for those who can fund or afford medical treatment
from said for-profit service providers.
Hospices do not, and have never, charged those referred to them by
Health NZ for their services.Good on you for your support of your local >>>Hospice. I am also involved in my local one, they are an amazing >>>orgaqnisation
and, as you have said, never charge their patients.
And there has been no evidence given in this thread that our
government since 2017 has in any way not met its obligations under
contracts with such organisations. I have asked previously what is
meant by ''restoring funding to 2017 levels", but facts are apparently
not relevant to the relentlessly negative. Still, we are about to get
a new Government - perhaps Winston will look on such requests with
more favour!
You are replying to me but addressing another posters writing - that is silly, lazy, deceitful or all three.It has not been shown that there has been any reduction - let us dealI have showed you the reason for hospices but you simply ignore it and >>>>continue your abuse. piss off.
an
I am sorry to have missed the attempt - perhaps that was in the part >>>>>of the thread that you deleted because you could not understand it . . >>>>The fact that you don't care about people dying in pain is now tantamount >>>>to
You have proved nothing, and corrected nothing, Tony. Live with it. >>>>>>I have corrected your idiocy and rudeness.
admission that you don't actually care about what happens to people ever. >>>>That
has to be part of your political belief. What a sad creature you are.
Rich takes issue with my advocacy that Health NZ restore funding to >>>equivalent 2017 levels of cost reimbursement. That was expressed as a >>>hop on the new Government
with facts . . .
.
--
Crash McBash
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Nobody has told us what the basis and amounts of funding were in 2017
On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 19:09:50 -0000 (UTC), TonyI am addressing the need not the cost. Crash has addressed the funding.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 05:40:14 -0000 (UTC), TonyThe main hospital in my area regularly refers pateints to the hospice because
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 04:44:20 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Nothing is deleted, your favourite 5 year old mentor can show you how to >>>>>read
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:And there you go again - deleting in the hope you can hide your >>>>>>mistakes and lack of understanding
On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 01:32:37 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 22:46:10 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Removed for brevity since Rich has effectively changed the subject (at >>>>>>>least
once!).
what has gone before. Brevity is good, your lies not so.
Piss off you perverse and abusive little boy.
I guess we share that lack of understanding then - do you actually >>>>>>believe in anything, Tony?I questioned the need to increase payments under a commercial contract >>>>>>>>just because a user of the service found them to be busy. Clearly you >>>>>>>>do not believe in a competitive market!You have no idea what I believe, one of your far from charming delusions.
You have no understanding of the role of hospices, that is clear.
Hospices and private hospitals are different subjects to everybody but you >>>>>-
So you have no evidence that subsidising hospices is either needed or >>>>>>desirable. I recall my introduction to the advantages of private >>>>>>hospitals (paid for by health insurance) when I lived in Australia >>>>>>many years ago - the advantage of private hospitals is that they have >>>>>>single rooms, colour television and carpet on the floor. Hospices >>>>>>provide similar benefits - but that does not mean that they justify >>>>>>government subsidy.Hospices came into being because hospitals were not doing as well as they
I questioned the need for government to subsidise hospices - no-one >>>>>>>>has provided any evidence that such a subsidy is either needed or >>>>>>>>desirable.
could
have. That is historically true.
your bias is showing.
Correct. Hospices are charities, private hospitals are for-profit >>>>service providers for those who can fund or afford medical treatment >>>>from said for-profit service providers.
Hospices do not, and have never, charged those referred to them by >>>>Health NZ for their services.Good on you for your support of your local >>>>Hospice. I am also involved in my local one, they are an amazing >>>>orgaqnisation
and, as you have said, never charge their patients.
the hospice does the task better.
And there has been no evidence given in this thread that our
government since 2017 has in any way not met its obligations under >>contracts with such organisations. I have asked previously what is
meant by ''restoring funding to 2017 levels", but facts are apparently
not relevant to the relentlessly negative. Still, we are about to get
a new Government - perhaps Winston will look on such requests with
more favour!
I am addressing the readers of nz.general. Tony's lack ofYou are replying to me but addressing another posters writing - that is silly, >lazy, deceitful or all three.
It has not been shown that there has been any reduction - let us dealI have showed you the reason for hospices but you simply ignore it and >>>>>continue your abuse. piss off.
an
I am sorry to have missed the attempt - perhaps that was in the part >>>>>>of the thread that you deleted because you could not understand it . . >>>>>The fact that you don't care about people dying in pain is now tantamount >>>>>to
You have proved nothing, and corrected nothing, Tony. Live with it. >>>>>>>I have corrected your idiocy and rudeness.
admission that you don't actually care about what happens to people ever. >>>>>That
has to be part of your political belief. What a sad creature you are.
Rich takes issue with my advocacy that Health NZ restore funding to >>>>equivalent 2017 levels of cost reimbursement. That was expressed as a >>>>hop on the new Government
with facts . . .
.
--
Crash McBash
On Mon, 6 Nov 2023 01:31:36 -0000 (UTC), TonyYes they have. And your imagination is not in debate, we know that you imageine all sorts of fantasies. Things like Labour led government competence for example.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:or now, but some will see what they imagine they have seen . . . .
On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 19:09:50 -0000 (UTC), TonyI am addressing the need not the cost. Crash has addressed the funding. >Nobody has told us what the basis and amounts of funding were in 2017
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 05:40:14 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:The main hospital in my area regularly refers pateints to the hospice >>>>because
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 04:44:20 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Nothing is deleted, your favourite 5 year old mentor can show you how to >>>>>>read
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:And there you go again - deleting in the hope you can hide your >>>>>>>mistakes and lack of understanding
On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 01:32:37 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 22:46:10 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Removed for brevity since Rich has effectively changed the subject (at >>>>>>>>least
once!).
what has gone before. Brevity is good, your lies not so.
Piss off you perverse and abusive little boy.
I guess we share that lack of understanding then - do you actually >>>>>>>believe in anything, Tony?I questioned the need to increase payments under a commercial contract >>>>>>>>>just because a user of the service found them to be busy. Clearly you >>>>>>>>>do not believe in a competitive market!You have no idea what I believe, one of your far from charming >>>>>>>>delusions.
You have no understanding of the role of hospices, that is clear.
Hospices and private hospitals are different subjects to everybody but >>>>>>you
So you have no evidence that subsidising hospices is either needed or >>>>>>>desirable. I recall my introduction to the advantages of private >>>>>>>hospitals (paid for by health insurance) when I lived in Australia >>>>>>>many years ago - the advantage of private hospitals is that they have >>>>>>>single rooms, colour television and carpet on the floor. Hospices >>>>>>>provide similar benefits - but that does not mean that they justify >>>>>>>government subsidy.Hospices came into being because hospitals were not doing as well as >>>>>>>>they
I questioned the need for government to subsidise hospices - no-one >>>>>>>>>has provided any evidence that such a subsidy is either needed or >>>>>>>>>desirable.
could
have. That is historically true.
-
your bias is showing.
Correct. Hospices are charities, private hospitals are for-profit >>>>>service providers for those who can fund or afford medical treatment >>>>>from said for-profit service providers.
Hospices do not, and have never, charged those referred to them by >>>>>Health NZ for their services.Good on you for your support of your local >>>>>Hospice. I am also involved in my local one, they are an amazing >>>>>orgaqnisation
and, as you have said, never charge their patients.
the hospice does the task better.
And there has been no evidence given in this thread that our
government since 2017 has in any way not met its obligations under >>>contracts with such organisations. I have asked previously what is
meant by ''restoring funding to 2017 levels", but facts are apparently >>>not relevant to the relentlessly negative. Still, we are about to get
a new Government - perhaps Winston will look on such requests with
more favour!
More abuse, thank you for the new tally.I am addressing the readers of nz.general. Tony's lack ofYou are replying to me but addressing another posters writing - that is >>silly,
It has not been shown that there has been any reduction - let us deal >>>with facts . . .I have showed you the reason for hospices but you simply ignore it and >>>>>>continue your abuse. piss off.Rich takes issue with my advocacy that Health NZ restore funding to >>>>>equivalent 2017 levels of cost reimbursement. That was expressed as a >>>>>hop on the new Government
an
I am sorry to have missed the attempt - perhaps that was in the part >>>>>>>of the thread that you deleted because you could not understand it . . >>>>>>The fact that you don't care about people dying in pain is now tantamount >>>>>>to
You have proved nothing, and corrected nothing, Tony. Live with it. >>>>>>>>I have corrected your idiocy and rudeness.
admission that you don't actually care about what happens to people ever. >>>>>>That
has to be part of your political belief. What a sad creature you are. >>>>>
lazy, deceitful or all three.
understanding that this is a "group" makes him terminally stupid.
.
--
Crash McBash
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:And there goes Tony with his imagination again. Referring patients to
On Mon, 6 Nov 2023 01:31:36 -0000 (UTC), TonyYes they have. And your imagination is not in debate, we know that you imageine
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:or now, but some will see what they imagine they have seen . . . .
On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 19:09:50 -0000 (UTC), TonyI am addressing the need not the cost. Crash has addressed the funding. >>Nobody has told us what the basis and amounts of funding were in 2017
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 05:40:14 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:The main hospital in my area regularly refers pateints to the hospice >>>>>because
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 04:44:20 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Nothing is deleted, your favourite 5 year old mentor can show you how to >>>>>>>read
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:And there you go again - deleting in the hope you can hide your >>>>>>>>mistakes and lack of understanding
On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 01:32:37 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 22:46:10 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Removed for brevity since Rich has effectively changed the subject (at >>>>>>>>>least
once!).
what has gone before. Brevity is good, your lies not so.
Piss off you perverse and abusive little boy.
I guess we share that lack of understanding then - do you actually >>>>>>>>believe in anything, Tony?I questioned the need to increase payments under a commercial contractYou have no idea what I believe, one of your far from charming >>>>>>>>>delusions.
just because a user of the service found them to be busy. Clearly you >>>>>>>>>>do not believe in a competitive market!
You have no understanding of the role of hospices, that is clear. >>>>>>>>
Hospices and private hospitals are different subjects to everybody but >>>>>>>youSo you have no evidence that subsidising hospices is either needed or >>>>>>>>desirable. I recall my introduction to the advantages of private >>>>>>>>hospitals (paid for by health insurance) when I lived in Australia >>>>>>>>many years ago - the advantage of private hospitals is that they have >>>>>>>>single rooms, colour television and carpet on the floor. Hospices >>>>>>>>provide similar benefits - but that does not mean that they justify >>>>>>>>government subsidy.Hospices came into being because hospitals were not doing as well as >>>>>>>>>they
I questioned the need for government to subsidise hospices - no-one >>>>>>>>>>has provided any evidence that such a subsidy is either needed or >>>>>>>>>>desirable.
could
have. That is historically true.
-
your bias is showing.
Correct. Hospices are charities, private hospitals are for-profit >>>>>>service providers for those who can fund or afford medical treatment >>>>>>from said for-profit service providers.
Hospices do not, and have never, charged those referred to them by >>>>>>Health NZ for their services.Good on you for your support of your local >>>>>>Hospice. I am also involved in my local one, they are an amazing >>>>>>orgaqnisation
and, as you have said, never charge their patients.
the hospice does the task better.
And there has been no evidence given in this thread that our
government since 2017 has in any way not met its obligations under >>>>contracts with such organisations. I have asked previously what is >>>>meant by ''restoring funding to 2017 levels", but facts are apparently >>>>not relevant to the relentlessly negative. Still, we are about to get
a new Government - perhaps Winston will look on such requests with
more favour!
all sorts of fantasies. Things like Labour led government competence for >example.
I do not care who provides information I was seeking to understand the suggestion that the government should be ''restoring funding to 2017More abuse, thank you for the new tally.
I am addressing the readers of nz.general. Tony's lack ofYou are replying to me but addressing another posters writing - that is >>>silly,
It has not been shown that there has been any reduction - let us deal >>>>with facts . . .I have showed you the reason for hospices but you simply ignore it and >>>>>>>continue your abuse. piss off.Rich takes issue with my advocacy that Health NZ restore funding to >>>>>>equivalent 2017 levels of cost reimbursement. That was expressed as a >>>>>>hop on the new Government
to
I am sorry to have missed the attempt - perhaps that was in the part >>>>>>>>of the thread that you deleted because you could not understand it . . >>>>>>>The fact that you don't care about people dying in pain is now tantamount
You have proved nothing, and corrected nothing, Tony. Live with it. >>>>>>>>>I have corrected your idiocy and rudeness.
an
admission that you don't actually care about what happens to people ever.
That
has to be part of your political belief. What a sad creature you are. >>>>>>
lazy, deceitful or all three.
understanding that this is a "group" makes him terminally stupid.
No, you are wrong, you are responding to someobody's post - the way you debate >is unlike everybody else - and for a reason. I believe that reason is to >deceive. It is lazy at best, most likely terminally (thank you for the apt >phrase).
--
Crash McBash
On Mon, 6 Nov 2023 03:34:39 -0000 (UTC), TonyYou ared a fool. I made no such suggestion - your comprehension rivals that of a baby chimpanzee. Using short words where possible I explained what hospices do that most hospiltals are not so good at. A simple concept that even you should, but don't, understand.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:And there goes Tony with his imagination again. Referring patients to
On Mon, 6 Nov 2023 01:31:36 -0000 (UTC), TonyYes they have. And your imagination is not in debate, we know that you >>imageine
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:or now, but some will see what they imagine they have seen . . . .
On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 19:09:50 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:I am addressing the need not the cost. Crash has addressed the funding. >>>Nobody has told us what the basis and amounts of funding were in 2017
Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 05:40:14 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:The main hospital in my area regularly refers pateints to the hospice >>>>>>because
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 04:44:20 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Nothing is deleted, your favourite 5 year old mentor can show you how >>>>>>>>to
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:And there you go again - deleting in the hope you can hide your >>>>>>>>>mistakes and lack of understanding
On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 01:32:37 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 22:46:10 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Removed for brevity since Rich has effectively changed the subject >>>>>>>>>>(at
least
once!).
read
what has gone before. Brevity is good, your lies not so.
Piss off you perverse and abusive little boy.
I guess we share that lack of understanding then - do you actually >>>>>>>>>believe in anything, Tony?I questioned the need to increase payments under a commercial >>>>>>>>>>>contractYou have no idea what I believe, one of your far from charming >>>>>>>>>>delusions.
just because a user of the service found them to be busy. Clearly you
do not believe in a competitive market!
You have no understanding of the role of hospices, that is clear. >>>>>>>>>
Hospices and private hospitals are different subjects to everybody but >>>>>>>>youSo you have no evidence that subsidising hospices is either needed or >>>>>>>>>desirable. I recall my introduction to the advantages of private >>>>>>>>>hospitals (paid for by health insurance) when I lived in Australia >>>>>>>>>many years ago - the advantage of private hospitals is that they have >>>>>>>>>single rooms, colour television and carpet on the floor. Hospices >>>>>>>>>provide similar benefits - but that does not mean that they justify >>>>>>>>>government subsidy.Hospices came into being because hospitals were not doing as well as >>>>>>>>>>they
I questioned the need for government to subsidise hospices - no-one >>>>>>>>>>>has provided any evidence that such a subsidy is either needed or >>>>>>>>>>>desirable.
could
have. That is historically true.
-
your bias is showing.
Correct. Hospices are charities, private hospitals are for-profit >>>>>>>service providers for those who can fund or afford medical treatment >>>>>>>from said for-profit service providers.
Hospices do not, and have never, charged those referred to them by >>>>>>>Health NZ for their services.Good on you for your support of your local >>>>>>>Hospice. I am also involved in my local one, they are an amazing >>>>>>>orgaqnisation
and, as you have said, never charge their patients.
the hospice does the task better.
And there has been no evidence given in this thread that our >>>>>government since 2017 has in any way not met its obligations under >>>>>contracts with such organisations. I have asked previously what is >>>>>meant by ''restoring funding to 2017 levels", but facts are apparently >>>>>not relevant to the relentlessly negative. Still, we are about to get >>>>>a new Government - perhaps Winston will look on such requests with >>>>>more favour!
all sorts of fantasies. Things like Labour led government competence for >>example.
a hospice does not tell us the basis for any payments, or the reason
why it was suggested that the Government the government should
consider ''restoring funding to 2017 levels."
That was posed by Crash, not me - ask him. Do catch up.I do not care who provides information I was seeking to understand the >suggestion that the government should be ''restoring funding to 2017More abuse, thank you for the new tally.
I am addressing the readers of nz.general. Tony's lack ofYou are replying to me but addressing another posters writing - that is >>>>silly,
It has not been shown that there has been any reduction - let us deal >>>>>with facts . . .I have showed you the reason for hospices but you simply ignore it and >>>>>>>>continue your abuse. piss off.Rich takes issue with my advocacy that Health NZ restore funding to >>>>>>>equivalent 2017 levels of cost reimbursement. That was expressed as a >>>>>>>hop on the new Government
to
I am sorry to have missed the attempt - perhaps that was in the part >>>>>>>>>of the thread that you deleted because you could not understand it . . >>>>>>>>The fact that you don't care about people dying in pain is now >>>>>>>>tantamount
You have proved nothing, and corrected nothing, Tony. Live with it. >>>>>>>>>>I have corrected your idiocy and rudeness.
an
admission that you don't actually care about what happens to people >>>>>>>>ever.
That
has to be part of your political belief. What a sad creature you are. >>>>>>>
lazy, deceitful or all three.
understanding that this is a "group" makes him terminally stupid.
No, you are wrong, you are responding to someobody's post - the way you >>debate
is unlike everybody else - and for a reason. I believe that reason is to >>deceive. It is lazy at best, most likely terminally (thank you for the apt >>phrase).
levels." It is clear that yet again Tony has not answers . . .
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:I did not claim that you had made the suggestion - you appear to
On Mon, 6 Nov 2023 03:34:39 -0000 (UTC), TonyYou ared a fool. I made no such suggestion - your comprehension rivals that of >a baby chimpanzee.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:And there goes Tony with his imagination again. Referring patients to
On Mon, 6 Nov 2023 01:31:36 -0000 (UTC), TonyYes they have. And your imagination is not in debate, we know that you >>>imageine
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 19:09:50 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:I am addressing the need not the cost. Crash has addressed the funding. >>>>Nobody has told us what the basis and amounts of funding were in 2017 >>>>or now, but some will see what they imagine they have seen . . . .
Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 05:40:14 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:The main hospital in my area regularly refers pateints to the hospice >>>>>>>because
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 04:44:20 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Nothing is deleted, your favourite 5 year old mentor can show you how >>>>>>>>>to
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:And there you go again - deleting in the hope you can hide your >>>>>>>>>>mistakes and lack of understanding
On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 01:32:37 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 22:46:10 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Removed for brevity since Rich has effectively changed the subject >>>>>>>>>>>(at
least
once!).
read
what has gone before. Brevity is good, your lies not so.
Piss off you perverse and abusive little boy.
I guess we share that lack of understanding then - do you actually >>>>>>>>>>believe in anything, Tony?I questioned the need to increase payments under a commercial >>>>>>>>>>>>contractYou have no idea what I believe, one of your far from charming >>>>>>>>>>>delusions.
just because a user of the service found them to be busy. Clearly you
do not believe in a competitive market!
You have no understanding of the role of hospices, that is clear. >>>>>>>>>>
Hospices and private hospitals are different subjects to everybody but >>>>>>>>>youSo you have no evidence that subsidising hospices is either needed or >>>>>>>>>>desirable. I recall my introduction to the advantages of private >>>>>>>>>>hospitals (paid for by health insurance) when I lived in Australia >>>>>>>>>>many years ago - the advantage of private hospitals is that they have >>>>>>>>>>single rooms, colour television and carpet on the floor. Hospices >>>>>>>>>>provide similar benefits - but that does not mean that they justify >>>>>>>>>>government subsidy.Hospices came into being because hospitals were not doing as well as >>>>>>>>>>>they
I questioned the need for government to subsidise hospices - no-one >>>>>>>>>>>>has provided any evidence that such a subsidy is either needed or >>>>>>>>>>>>desirable.
could
have. That is historically true.
-
your bias is showing.
Correct. Hospices are charities, private hospitals are for-profit >>>>>>>>service providers for those who can fund or afford medical treatment >>>>>>>>from said for-profit service providers.
Hospices do not, and have never, charged those referred to them by >>>>>>>>Health NZ for their services.Good on you for your support of your local >>>>>>>>Hospice. I am also involved in my local one, they are an amazing >>>>>>>>orgaqnisation
and, as you have said, never charge their patients.
the hospice does the task better.
And there has been no evidence given in this thread that our >>>>>>government since 2017 has in any way not met its obligations under >>>>>>contracts with such organisations. I have asked previously what is >>>>>>meant by ''restoring funding to 2017 levels", but facts are apparently >>>>>>not relevant to the relentlessly negative. Still, we are about to get >>>>>>a new Government - perhaps Winston will look on such requests with >>>>>>more favour!
all sorts of fantasies. Things like Labour led government competence for >>>example.
a hospice does not tell us the basis for any payments, or the reason
why it was suggested that the Government the government should
consider ''restoring funding to 2017 levels."
Using short words where possible I explained what hospicesYour explanation does not answer the question I asked, which is the
do that most hospiltals are not so good at. A simple concept that even you >should, but don't, understand.
That was posed by Crash, not me - ask him. Do catch up.I do not care who provides information I was seeking to understand the >>suggestion that the government should be ''restoring funding to 2017 >>levels." It is clear that yet again Tony has not answers . . .More abuse, thank you for the new tally.I am addressing the readers of nz.general. Tony's lack ofYou are replying to me but addressing another posters writing - that is >>>>>silly,It has not been shown that there has been any reduction - let us deal >>>>>>with facts . . .I have showed you the reason for hospices but you simply ignore it and >>>>>>>>>continue your abuse. piss off.Rich takes issue with my advocacy that Health NZ restore funding to >>>>>>>>equivalent 2017 levels of cost reimbursement. That was expressed as a >>>>>>>>hop on the new Government
The fact that you don't care about people dying in pain is now >>>>>>>>>tantamount
I am sorry to have missed the attempt - perhaps that was in the part >>>>>>>>>>of the thread that you deleted because you could not understand it . .
You have proved nothing, and corrected nothing, Tony. Live with it. >>>>>>>>>>>I have corrected your idiocy and rudeness.
to an
admission that you don't actually care about what happens to people >>>>>>>>>ever.
That
has to be part of your political belief. What a sad creature you are. >>>>>>>>
lazy, deceitful or all three.
understanding that this is a "group" makes him terminally stupid.
No, you are wrong, you are responding to someobody's post - the way you >>>debate
is unlike everybody else - and for a reason. I believe that reason is to >>>deceive. It is lazy at best, most likely terminally (thank you for the apt >>>phrase).
On Tue, 7 Nov 2023 01:21:46 -0000 (UTC), TonyYou mentioned my imagination, and linked it with the suggestion. Your problem not mine if your writing is nonsensical.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:I did not claim that you had made the suggestion - you appear to
On Mon, 6 Nov 2023 03:34:39 -0000 (UTC), TonyYou ared a fool. I made no such suggestion - your comprehension rivals that >>of
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:And there goes Tony with his imagination again. Referring patients to
On Mon, 6 Nov 2023 01:31:36 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Yes they have. And your imagination is not in debate, we know that you >>>>imageine
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 19:09:50 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:I am addressing the need not the cost. Crash has addressed the funding. >>>>>Nobody has told us what the basis and amounts of funding were in 2017 >>>>>or now, but some will see what they imagine they have seen . . . .
Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 05:40:14 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:The main hospital in my area regularly refers pateints to the hospice >>>>>>>>because
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 04:44:20 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Nothing is deleted, your favourite 5 year old mentor can show you how >>>>>>>>>>to
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:And there you go again - deleting in the hope you can hide your >>>>>>>>>>>mistakes and lack of understanding
On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 01:32:37 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 22:46:10 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Removed for brevity since Rich has effectively changed the subject >>>>>>>>>>>>(at
least
once!).
read
what has gone before. Brevity is good, your lies not so.
Piss off you perverse and abusive little boy.
I guess we share that lack of understanding then - do you actually >>>>>>>>>>>believe in anything, Tony?I questioned the need to increase payments under a commercial >>>>>>>>>>>>>contractYou have no idea what I believe, one of your far from charming >>>>>>>>>>>>delusions.
just because a user of the service found them to be busy. Clearly >>>>>>>>>>>>>you
do not believe in a competitive market!
You have no understanding of the role of hospices, that is clear. >>>>>>>>>>>
Hospices and private hospitals are different subjects to everybody >>>>>>>>>>butSo you have no evidence that subsidising hospices is either needed orHospices came into being because hospitals were not doing as well >>>>>>>>>>>>as
I questioned the need for government to subsidise hospices - no-one
has provided any evidence that such a subsidy is either needed or >>>>>>>>>>>>>desirable.
they
could
have. That is historically true.
desirable. I recall my introduction to the advantages of private >>>>>>>>>>>hospitals (paid for by health insurance) when I lived in Australia >>>>>>>>>>>many years ago - the advantage of private hospitals is that they have
single rooms, colour television and carpet on the floor. Hospices >>>>>>>>>>>provide similar benefits - but that does not mean that they justify >>>>>>>>>>>government subsidy.
you
-
your bias is showing.
Correct. Hospices are charities, private hospitals are for-profit >>>>>>>>>service providers for those who can fund or afford medical treatment >>>>>>>>>from said for-profit service providers.
Hospices do not, and have never, charged those referred to them by >>>>>>>>>Health NZ for their services.Good on you for your support of your >>>>>>>>>local
Hospice. I am also involved in my local one, they are an amazing >>>>>>>>>orgaqnisation
and, as you have said, never charge their patients.
the hospice does the task better.
And there has been no evidence given in this thread that our >>>>>>>government since 2017 has in any way not met its obligations under >>>>>>>contracts with such organisations. I have asked previously what is >>>>>>>meant by ''restoring funding to 2017 levels", but facts are apparently >>>>>>>not relevant to the relentlessly negative. Still, we are about to get >>>>>>>a new Government - perhaps Winston will look on such requests with >>>>>>>more favour!
all sorts of fantasies. Things like Labour led government competence for >>>>example.
a hospice does not tell us the basis for any payments, or the reason
why it was suggested that the Government the government should
consider ''restoring funding to 2017 levels."
a baby chimpanzee.
believe that every post concerns only you - that is not the case,
Tony.
I have never addressed that aspect - ask someone who has or do your own research.Using short words where possible I explained what hospicesYour explanation does not answer the question I asked, which is the
do that most hospiltals are not so good at. A simple concept that even you >>should, but don't, understand.
basis for payments to hospices from government, and the amount of such >payments now and back in 2017.
If you do not know the answer, don't bitch about it - just don't post!Stop asking me to justify other people's posts - you are the bitch little boi, not me.
Why ask me questions that you should be addressing to others? What sort of silliness is that? Oh, I know, Rich80105 silliness and abuse.That was posed by Crash, not me - ask him. Do catch up.I do not care who provides information I was seeking to understand the >>>suggestion that the government should be ''restoring funding to 2017 >>>levels." It is clear that yet again Tony has not answers . . .More abuse, thank you for the new tally.I am addressing the readers of nz.general. Tony's lack of >>>>>understanding that this is a "group" makes him terminally stupid.You are replying to me but addressing another posters writing - that is >>>>>>silly,It has not been shown that there has been any reduction - let us deal >>>>>>>with facts . . .I have showed you the reason for hospices but you simply ignore it >>>>>>>>>>andRich takes issue with my advocacy that Health NZ restore funding to >>>>>>>>>equivalent 2017 levels of cost reimbursement. That was expressed as a >>>>>>>>>hop on the new Government
continue your abuse. piss off.
The fact that you don't care about people dying in pain is now >>>>>>>>>>tantamount
I am sorry to have missed the attempt - perhaps that was in the part >>>>>>>>>>>of the thread that you deleted because you could not understand it . >>>>>>>>>>>.I have corrected your idiocy and rudeness.
You have proved nothing, and corrected nothing, Tony. Live with it.
to an
admission that you don't actually care about what happens to people >>>>>>>>>>ever.
That
has to be part of your political belief. What a sad creature you are. >>>>>>>>>
lazy, deceitful or all three.
No, you are wrong, you are responding to someobody's post - the way you >>>>debate
is unlike everybody else - and for a reason. I believe that reason is to >>>>deceive. It is lazy at best, most likely terminally (thank you for the apt >>>>phrase).
If you had an answer I would not have objected to you giving the
information, but if you do not have anything useful to say, why do you
bother posting?
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