I have not seen any in depth analysis of how this can be audited -
beyond getting the Grocery Commissioner to 'monitor' this.
https://tinyurl.com/mr3zankr
'Monitor' is not what is required - audits would normally do this,
except something like this is impossible to audit. Every Supermarket
(like every other GST-registered entity) will file and pay GST and for
the most part this is a simple calculation based on total revenue -
which can be audited. Introducing GST-exempt products means that
total revenue can no longer be used - because some of it came from
GST-exempt sales. So businesses selling some products that are
GST-exempt will have to record GST-liable revenue separate to total
revenue, and GST-liable revenue cannot be audited in any way because
the sole record of this information is with the entity.
This is the reason that GST was designed the way it was, and why
various government-commissioned reports have recommended against this
option.
In this case, the Supermarkets can take the option that all food is
priced and sold as it is currently. Compiling a GST return is a
back-office function and not passing on the GST exemption on various
exempt products will be used to offset increased costs and (probably) bottom-line profitability. The price per kg of fruit and veges is so volatile (on a daily basis) that even on the day the exemption comes
into force, there is no way to tell if the GST exemption has been
passed on by lowering retail prices.
There are potentially some businesses who only sell GST-exempt food
(like Farmers Market vendors and specialist Fruit&vege retailers).
These folks cannot compete with Supermarkets on volumes so are
unlikely to be able to offer cheaper produce.
Labour have revealed themselves to be clueless. This policy cannot
achieve what it sets out to achieve, but it can be used to win votes.
That is its only value.
I have not seen any in depth analysis of how this can be audited -
beyond getting the Grocery Commissioner to 'monitor' this.
https://tinyurl.com/mr3zankr
'Monitor' is not what is required - audits would normally do this,
except something like this is impossible to audit. Every Supermarket
(like every other GST-registered entity) will file and pay GST and for
the most part this is a simple calculation based on total revenue -
which can be audited. Introducing GST-exempt products means that
total revenue can no longer be used - because some of it came from
GST-exempt sales. So businesses selling some products that are
GST-exempt will have to record GST-liable revenue separate to total
revenue, and GST-liable revenue cannot be audited in any way because
the sole record of this information is with the entity.
This is the reason that GST was designed the way it was, and why
various government-commissioned reports have recommended against this
option.
In this case, the Supermarkets can take the option that all food is
priced and sold as it is currently. Compiling a GST return is a
back-office function and not passing on the GST exemption on various
exempt products will be used to offset increased costs and (probably) bottom-line profitability. The price per kg of fruit and veges is so
volatile (on a daily basis) that even on the day the exemption comes
into force, there is no way to tell if the GST exemption has been
passed on by lowering retail prices.
There are potentially some businesses who only sell GST-exempt food
(like Farmers Market vendors and specialist Fruit&vege retailers).
These folks cannot compete with Supermarkets on volumes so are
unlikely to be able to offer cheaper produce.
Labour have revealed themselves to be clueless. This policy cannot
achieve what it sets out to achieve, but it can be used to win votes.
That is its only value.
--
Crash McBash
On 2023-09-20, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
I have not seen any in depth analysis of how this can be audited -And that is the bottom line.
beyond getting the Grocery Commissioner to 'monitor' this.
https://tinyurl.com/mr3zankr
'Monitor' is not what is required - audits would normally do this,
except something like this is impossible to audit. Every Supermarket
(like every other GST-registered entity) will file and pay GST and for
the most part this is a simple calculation based on total revenue -
which can be audited. Introducing GST-exempt products means that
total revenue can no longer be used - because some of it came from
GST-exempt sales. So businesses selling some products that are
GST-exempt will have to record GST-liable revenue separate to total
revenue, and GST-liable revenue cannot be audited in any way because
the sole record of this information is with the entity.
This is the reason that GST was designed the way it was, and why
various government-commissioned reports have recommended against this
option.
In this case, the Supermarkets can take the option that all food is
priced and sold as it is currently. Compiling a GST return is a
back-office function and not passing on the GST exemption on various
exempt products will be used to offset increased costs and (probably)
bottom-line profitability. The price per kg of fruit and veges is so
volatile (on a daily basis) that even on the day the exemption comes
into force, there is no way to tell if the GST exemption has been
passed on by lowering retail prices.
There are potentially some businesses who only sell GST-exempt food
(like Farmers Market vendors and specialist Fruit&vege retailers).
These folks cannot compete with Supermarkets on volumes so are
unlikely to be able to offer cheaper produce.
Labour have revealed themselves to be clueless. This policy cannot
achieve what it sets out to achieve, but it can be used to win votes.
That is its only value.
Is National still planning to do this, at one point they "matched" Labour's >offer.
Ideally what should have happened in a case such as this, is the Government >should consider the advice see that it is not going to work in all >probability and the explain this to the public. After all they have many >thousand of PR folks.
How the hell do I know that there is no GST on the cabbage? As Crash points >out the price varies within the error of GST. At least a loaf of your >favourate bread remains "constant" so there is some check one can do.
Good summary Crash.
Once the GST is "messed" with a simple effective tax will start the ball >rolling into an in effective system. KISS really does apply in this case.
On Wed, 20 Sep 2023 14:17:34 -0700 (PDT), JohnO <john...@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Thursday, 21 September 2023 at 09:08:42 UTC+12, Crash wrote:
I have not seen any in depth analysis of how this can be audited -
beyond getting the Grocery Commissioner to 'monitor' this.
https://tinyurl.com/mr3zankr
'Monitor' is not what is required - audits would normally do this,
except something like this is impossible to audit. Every Supermarket
(like every other GST-registered entity) will file and pay GST and for
the most part this is a simple calculation based on total revenue -
which can be audited. Introducing GST-exempt products means that
total revenue can no longer be used - because some of it came from
GST-exempt sales. So businesses selling some products that are
GST-exempt will have to record GST-liable revenue separate to total
revenue, and GST-liable revenue cannot be audited in any way because
the sole record of this information is with the entity.
This is the reason that GST was designed the way it was, and why
various government-commissioned reports have recommended against this
option.
In this case, the Supermarkets can take the option that all food is
priced and sold as it is currently. Compiling a GST return is a
back-office function and not passing on the GST exemption on various
exempt products will be used to offset increased costs and (probably)
bottom-line profitability. The price per kg of fruit and veges is so
volatile (on a daily basis) that even on the day the exemption comes
into force, there is no way to tell if the GST exemption has been
passed on by lowering retail prices.
There are potentially some businesses who only sell GST-exempt food
(like Farmers Market vendors and specialist Fruit&vege retailers).
These folks cannot compete with Supermarkets on volumes so are
unlikely to be able to offer cheaper produce.
Labour have revealed themselves to be clueless. This policy cannot
achieve what it sets out to achieve, but it can be used to win votes.
That is its only value.
--
Crash McBash
Yep.
Labour ignored Ministry of Health advice that this initiative will not work:
https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/off-the-shelf/story/2018907819/ministers-were-advised-taking-gst-off-fruit-and-vege-would-not-lower-prices
But they went ahead anyway . This demonstrates that Labour are more interested in getting dumb people to vote for them than they are in helping said dumb people with their cost of living.It works in Australia, who have developed good systems to cope with
it. Our version will not be quite as complicated as in Australia.
On Thursday, 21 September 2023 at 10:38:59 UTC+12, Rich80105 wrote:this will naturally be gamed. In other words there's unproductive cost, compliance and administrative overhead being created. The end result is more money wasted that could be better deployed, and the principal beneficiaries of all this will be
On Wed, 20 Sep 2023 14:17:34 -0700 (PDT), JohnO <john...@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Thursday, 21 September 2023 at 09:08:42 UTC+12, Crash wrote:
I have not seen any in depth analysis of how this can be audited -
beyond getting the Grocery Commissioner to 'monitor' this.
https://tinyurl.com/mr3zankr
'Monitor' is not what is required - audits would normally do this,
except something like this is impossible to audit. Every Supermarket
(like every other GST-registered entity) will file and pay GST and for >> the most part this is a simple calculation based on total revenue -
which can be audited. Introducing GST-exempt products means that
total revenue can no longer be used - because some of it came from
GST-exempt sales. So businesses selling some products that are
GST-exempt will have to record GST-liable revenue separate to total
revenue, and GST-liable revenue cannot be audited in any way because
the sole record of this information is with the entity.
This is the reason that GST was designed the way it was, and why
various government-commissioned reports have recommended against this >> option.
In this case, the Supermarkets can take the option that all food is
priced and sold as it is currently. Compiling a GST return is a
back-office function and not passing on the GST exemption on various
exempt products will be used to offset increased costs and (probably) >> bottom-line profitability. The price per kg of fruit and veges is so
volatile (on a daily basis) that even on the day the exemption comes
into force, there is no way to tell if the GST exemption has been
passed on by lowering retail prices.
There are potentially some businesses who only sell GST-exempt food
(like Farmers Market vendors and specialist Fruit&vege retailers).
These folks cannot compete with Supermarkets on volumes so are
unlikely to be able to offer cheaper produce.
Labour have revealed themselves to be clueless. This policy cannot
achieve what it sets out to achieve, but it can be used to win votes. >> That is its only value.
--
Crash McBash
Yep.
Labour ignored Ministry of Health advice that this initiative will not work:
https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/off-the-shelf/story/2018907819/ministers-were-advised-taking-gst-off-fruit-and-vege-would-not-lower-prices
You have no idea whether it works in Australia or not, and are making shit up.But they went ahead anyway . This demonstrates that Labour are more interested in getting dumb people to vote for them than they are in helping said dumb people with their cost of living.It works in Australia, who have developed good systems to cope with
it. Our version will not be quite as complicated as in Australia.
What we do know is that there are many layers of complexity created by this dimwitted policy. Labour have already admitted it requires a bureaucracy to "monitor" pricing. Then there's the whole issue of deciding what constitutes "fresh" produce and
It is a stupid policy released by dishonest people and aimed at stupid people. Grant Robertson knows it won't work. The Ministry of Health experts know it won't work. Most or all independent economists know it won't work. Labour really do know it won'twork but they lie and propose it, because in their abject desperation they are hoping to get some votes. Unfortunately for them the public are not as stupid as they hoped.
On 20 Sep 2023 22:08:42 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
On 2023-09-20, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
I have not seen any in depth analysis of how this can be audited -And that is the bottom line.
beyond getting the Grocery Commissioner to 'monitor' this.
https://tinyurl.com/mr3zankr
'Monitor' is not what is required - audits would normally do this,
except something like this is impossible to audit. Every Supermarket
(like every other GST-registered entity) will file and pay GST and for
the most part this is a simple calculation based on total revenue -
which can be audited. Introducing GST-exempt products means that
total revenue can no longer be used - because some of it came from
GST-exempt sales. So businesses selling some products that are
GST-exempt will have to record GST-liable revenue separate to total
revenue, and GST-liable revenue cannot be audited in any way because
the sole record of this information is with the entity.
This is the reason that GST was designed the way it was, and why
various government-commissioned reports have recommended against this
option.
In this case, the Supermarkets can take the option that all food is
priced and sold as it is currently. Compiling a GST return is a
back-office function and not passing on the GST exemption on various
exempt products will be used to offset increased costs and (probably)
bottom-line profitability. The price per kg of fruit and veges is so
volatile (on a daily basis) that even on the day the exemption comes
into force, there is no way to tell if the GST exemption has been
passed on by lowering retail prices.
There are potentially some businesses who only sell GST-exempt food
(like Farmers Market vendors and specialist Fruit&vege retailers).
These folks cannot compete with Supermarkets on volumes so are
unlikely to be able to offer cheaper produce.
Labour have revealed themselves to be clueless. This policy cannot
achieve what it sets out to achieve, but it can be used to win votes.
That is its only value.
Is National still planning to do this, at one point they "matched" Labour's >>offer.
Ideally what should have happened in a case such as this, is the Government >>should consider the advice see that it is not going to work in all >>probability and the explain this to the public. After all they have many >>thousand of PR folks.
How the hell do I know that there is no GST on the cabbage? As Crash points >>out the price varies within the error of GST. At least a loaf of your >>favourate bread remains "constant" so there is some check one can do.
Good summary Crash.
Once the GST is "messed" with a simple effective tax will start the ball >>rolling into an in effective system. KISS really does apply in this case.
The whole system needs to be transparent - if no GST was paid by the >supermarkets on certain goods when purchased, they will not be able to
charge it when those goods are sold in their retail stores. The system
must be able to be audited, and the Grocery Commissioner will be
looking for excessive profits on GST-exempt goods.
In effect those arguing against lower costs being passed on are
confirming that they are happy with a cartel ripping off the public.
On Wed, 20 Sep 2023 14:17:34 -0700 (PDT), JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Thursday, 21 September 2023 at 09:08:42 UTC+12, Crash wrote:
I have not seen any in depth analysis of how this can be audited -
beyond getting the Grocery Commissioner to 'monitor' this.
https://tinyurl.com/mr3zankr
'Monitor' is not what is required - audits would normally do this,
except something like this is impossible to audit. Every Supermarket
(like every other GST-registered entity) will file and pay GST and for
the most part this is a simple calculation based on total revenue -
which can be audited. Introducing GST-exempt products means that
total revenue can no longer be used - because some of it came from
GST-exempt sales. So businesses selling some products that are
GST-exempt will have to record GST-liable revenue separate to total
revenue, and GST-liable revenue cannot be audited in any way because
the sole record of this information is with the entity.
This is the reason that GST was designed the way it was, and why
various government-commissioned reports have recommended against this
option.
In this case, the Supermarkets can take the option that all food is
priced and sold as it is currently. Compiling a GST return is a
back-office function and not passing on the GST exemption on various
exempt products will be used to offset increased costs and (probably)
bottom-line profitability. The price per kg of fruit and veges is so
volatile (on a daily basis) that even on the day the exemption comes
into force, there is no way to tell if the GST exemption has been
passed on by lowering retail prices.
There are potentially some businesses who only sell GST-exempt food
(like Farmers Market vendors and specialist Fruit&vege retailers).
These folks cannot compete with Supermarkets on volumes so are
unlikely to be able to offer cheaper produce.
Labour have revealed themselves to be clueless. This policy cannot
achieve what it sets out to achieve, but it can be used to win votes.
That is its only value.
--
Crash McBash
Yep.
Labour ignored Ministry of Health advice that this initiative will not work: >>https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/off-the-shelf/story/2018907819/ministers-were-advised-taking-gst-off-fruit-and-vege-would-not-lower-prices
But they went ahead anyway . This demonstrates that Labour are more interested in getting dumb people to vote for them than they are in helping said dumb people with their cost of living.
It works in Australia, who have developed good systems to cope with
it. Our version will not be quite as complicated as in Australia.
On Thursday, 21 September 2023 at 09:08:42 UTC+12, Crash wrote:
I have not seen any in depth analysis of how this can be audited -
beyond getting the Grocery Commissioner to 'monitor' this.
https://tinyurl.com/mr3zankr
'Monitor' is not what is required - audits would normally do this,
except something like this is impossible to audit. Every Supermarket
(like every other GST-registered entity) will file and pay GST and for
the most part this is a simple calculation based on total revenue -
which can be audited. Introducing GST-exempt products means that
total revenue can no longer be used - because some of it came from
GST-exempt sales. So businesses selling some products that are
GST-exempt will have to record GST-liable revenue separate to total
revenue, and GST-liable revenue cannot be audited in any way because
the sole record of this information is with the entity.
This is the reason that GST was designed the way it was, and why
various government-commissioned reports have recommended against this
option.
In this case, the Supermarkets can take the option that all food is
priced and sold as it is currently. Compiling a GST return is a
back-office function and not passing on the GST exemption on various
exempt products will be used to offset increased costs and (probably)
bottom-line profitability. The price per kg of fruit and veges is so
volatile (on a daily basis) that even on the day the exemption comes
into force, there is no way to tell if the GST exemption has been
passed on by lowering retail prices.
There are potentially some businesses who only sell GST-exempt food
(like Farmers Market vendors and specialist Fruit&vege retailers).
These folks cannot compete with Supermarkets on volumes so are
unlikely to be able to offer cheaper produce.
Labour have revealed themselves to be clueless. This policy cannot
achieve what it sets out to achieve, but it can be used to win votes.
That is its only value.
--
Crash McBash
Yep.
Labour ignored Ministry of Health advice that this initiative will not work: >https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/off-the-shelf/story/2018907819/ministers-were-advised-taking-gst-off-fruit-and-vege-would-not-lower-prices
But they went ahead anyway . This demonstrates that Labour are more interested in getting dumb people to vote for them than they are in helping said dumb people with their cost of living.
On Wed, 20 Sep 2023 14:17:34 -0700 (PDT), JohnO <john...@gmail.com>If Labour has anything to do with it it'll be controlled by the iwi elite and be a can of worms like 3 (?) waters and the RMA!
wrote:
On Thursday, 21 September 2023 at 09:08:42 UTC+12, Crash wrote:
I have not seen any in depth analysis of how this can be audited -
beyond getting the Grocery Commissioner to 'monitor' this.
https://tinyurl.com/mr3zankr
'Monitor' is not what is required - audits would normally do this,
except something like this is impossible to audit. Every Supermarket
(like every other GST-registered entity) will file and pay GST and for
the most part this is a simple calculation based on total revenue -
which can be audited. Introducing GST-exempt products means that
total revenue can no longer be used - because some of it came from
GST-exempt sales. So businesses selling some products that are
GST-exempt will have to record GST-liable revenue separate to total
revenue, and GST-liable revenue cannot be audited in any way because
the sole record of this information is with the entity.
This is the reason that GST was designed the way it was, and why
various government-commissioned reports have recommended against this
option.
In this case, the Supermarkets can take the option that all food is
priced and sold as it is currently. Compiling a GST return is a
back-office function and not passing on the GST exemption on various
exempt products will be used to offset increased costs and (probably)
bottom-line profitability. The price per kg of fruit and veges is so
volatile (on a daily basis) that even on the day the exemption comes
into force, there is no way to tell if the GST exemption has been
passed on by lowering retail prices.
There are potentially some businesses who only sell GST-exempt food
(like Farmers Market vendors and specialist Fruit&vege retailers).
These folks cannot compete with Supermarkets on volumes so are
unlikely to be able to offer cheaper produce.
Labour have revealed themselves to be clueless. This policy cannot
achieve what it sets out to achieve, but it can be used to win votes.
That is its only value.
--
Crash McBash
Yep.
Labour ignored Ministry of Health advice that this initiative will not work:
https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/off-the-shelf/story/2018907819/ministers-were-advised-taking-gst-off-fruit-and-vege-would-not-lower-prices
But they went ahead anyway . This demonstrates that Labour are more interested in getting dumb people to vote for them than they are in helping said dumb people with their cost of living.It works in Australia, who have developed good systems to cope with
it. Our version will not be quite as complicated as in Australia.
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 10:31:08 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Wed, 20 Sep 2023 14:17:34 -0700 (PDT), JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com> >>wrote:
On Thursday, 21 September 2023 at 09:08:42 UTC+12, Crash wrote:
I have not seen any in depth analysis of how this can be audited -
beyond getting the Grocery Commissioner to 'monitor' this.
https://tinyurl.com/mr3zankr
'Monitor' is not what is required - audits would normally do this,
except something like this is impossible to audit. Every Supermarket
(like every other GST-registered entity) will file and pay GST and for >>>> the most part this is a simple calculation based on total revenue -
which can be audited. Introducing GST-exempt products means that
total revenue can no longer be used - because some of it came from
GST-exempt sales. So businesses selling some products that are
GST-exempt will have to record GST-liable revenue separate to total
revenue, and GST-liable revenue cannot be audited in any way because
the sole record of this information is with the entity.
This is the reason that GST was designed the way it was, and why
various government-commissioned reports have recommended against this
option.
In this case, the Supermarkets can take the option that all food is
priced and sold as it is currently. Compiling a GST return is a
back-office function and not passing on the GST exemption on various
exempt products will be used to offset increased costs and (probably)
bottom-line profitability. The price per kg of fruit and veges is so
volatile (on a daily basis) that even on the day the exemption comes
into force, there is no way to tell if the GST exemption has been
passed on by lowering retail prices.
There are potentially some businesses who only sell GST-exempt food
(like Farmers Market vendors and specialist Fruit&vege retailers).
These folks cannot compete with Supermarkets on volumes so are
unlikely to be able to offer cheaper produce.
Labour have revealed themselves to be clueless. This policy cannot
achieve what it sets out to achieve, but it can be used to win votes.
That is its only value.
--
Crash McBash
Yep.
Labour ignored Ministry of Health advice that this initiative will not work: >>>https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/off-the-shelf/story/2018907819/ministers-were-advised-taking-gst-off-fruit-and-vege-would-not-lower-prices
But they went ahead anyway . This demonstrates that Labour are more interested in getting dumb people to vote for them than they are in helping said dumb people with their cost of living.
It works in Australia, who have developed good systems to cope with
it. Our version will not be quite as complicated as in Australia.
Then why have Labour not explained how their proposed changes would
work citing the Australian experience? There is a good reason - and
that is exactly why at least 2 reports to the Government about tax
revisions have recommended against it.
Rich you have not addressed my core contention - that GST-exemption
will not result in reduced retail pricing because there is no way to
audit whether this has happened.
On Thursday, 21 September 2023 at 10:38:59 UTC+12, Rich80105 wrote:will naturally be gamed. In other words there's unproductive cost, compliance and administrative overhead being created. The end result is more money wasted that could be better deployed, and the principal beneficiaries of all this will be accountants,
On Wed, 20 Sep 2023 14:17:34 -0700 (PDT), JohnO <john...@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Thursday, 21 September 2023 at 09:08:42 UTC+12, Crash wrote:It works in Australia, who have developed good systems to cope with
I have not seen any in depth analysis of how this can be audited -
beyond getting the Grocery Commissioner to 'monitor' this.
https://tinyurl.com/mr3zankr
'Monitor' is not what is required - audits would normally do this,
except something like this is impossible to audit. Every Supermarket
(like every other GST-registered entity) will file and pay GST and for
the most part this is a simple calculation based on total revenue -
which can be audited. Introducing GST-exempt products means that
total revenue can no longer be used - because some of it came from
GST-exempt sales. So businesses selling some products that are
GST-exempt will have to record GST-liable revenue separate to total
revenue, and GST-liable revenue cannot be audited in any way because
the sole record of this information is with the entity.
This is the reason that GST was designed the way it was, and why
various government-commissioned reports have recommended against this
option.
In this case, the Supermarkets can take the option that all food is
priced and sold as it is currently. Compiling a GST return is a
back-office function and not passing on the GST exemption on various
exempt products will be used to offset increased costs and (probably)
bottom-line profitability. The price per kg of fruit and veges is so
volatile (on a daily basis) that even on the day the exemption comes
into force, there is no way to tell if the GST exemption has been
passed on by lowering retail prices.
There are potentially some businesses who only sell GST-exempt food
(like Farmers Market vendors and specialist Fruit&vege retailers).
These folks cannot compete with Supermarkets on volumes so are
unlikely to be able to offer cheaper produce.
Labour have revealed themselves to be clueless. This policy cannot
achieve what it sets out to achieve, but it can be used to win votes.
That is its only value.
--
Crash McBash
Yep.
Labour ignored Ministry of Health advice that this initiative will not work:
https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/off-the-shelf/story/2018907819/ministers-were-advised-taking-gst-off-fruit-and-vege-would-not-lower-prices
But they went ahead anyway . This demonstrates that Labour are more interested in getting dumb people to vote for them than they are in helping said dumb people with their cost of living.
it. Our version will not be quite as complicated as in Australia.
You have no idea whether it works in Australia or not, and are making shit up.
What we do know is that there are many layers of complexity created by this dimwitted policy. Labour have already admitted it requires a bureaucracy to "monitor" pricing. Then there's the whole issue of deciding what constitutes "fresh" produce and this
It is a stupid policy released by dishonest people and aimed at stupid people. Grant Robertson knows it won't work. The Ministry of Health experts know it won't work. Most or all independent economists know it won't work. Labour really do know it won'twork but they lie and propose it, because in their abject desperation they are hoping to get some votes. Unfortunately for them the public are not as stupid as they hoped.
On Thursday, 21 September 2023 at 10:58:22 UTC+12, JohnO wrote:this will naturally be gamed. In other words there's unproductive cost, compliance and administrative overhead being created. The end result is more money wasted that could be better deployed, and the principal beneficiaries of all this will be
On Thursday, 21 September 2023 at 10:38:59 UTC+12, Rich80105 wrote:
On Wed, 20 Sep 2023 14:17:34 -0700 (PDT), JohnO <john...@gmail.com>You have no idea whether it works in Australia or not, and are making shit up.
wrote:
On Thursday, 21 September 2023 at 09:08:42 UTC+12, Crash wrote:It works in Australia, who have developed good systems to cope with
I have not seen any in depth analysis of how this can be audited -
beyond getting the Grocery Commissioner to 'monitor' this.
https://tinyurl.com/mr3zankr
'Monitor' is not what is required - audits would normally do this,
except something like this is impossible to audit. Every Supermarket
(like every other GST-registered entity) will file and pay GST and for >> > >> the most part this is a simple calculation based on total revenue -
which can be audited. Introducing GST-exempt products means that
total revenue can no longer be used - because some of it came from
GST-exempt sales. So businesses selling some products that are
GST-exempt will have to record GST-liable revenue separate to total
revenue, and GST-liable revenue cannot be audited in any way because
the sole record of this information is with the entity.
This is the reason that GST was designed the way it was, and why
various government-commissioned reports have recommended against this >> > >> option.
In this case, the Supermarkets can take the option that all food is
priced and sold as it is currently. Compiling a GST return is a
back-office function and not passing on the GST exemption on various
exempt products will be used to offset increased costs and (probably) >> > >> bottom-line profitability. The price per kg of fruit and veges is so
volatile (on a daily basis) that even on the day the exemption comes
into force, there is no way to tell if the GST exemption has been
passed on by lowering retail prices.
There are potentially some businesses who only sell GST-exempt food
(like Farmers Market vendors and specialist Fruit&vege retailers).
These folks cannot compete with Supermarkets on volumes so are
unlikely to be able to offer cheaper produce.
Labour have revealed themselves to be clueless. This policy cannot
achieve what it sets out to achieve, but it can be used to win votes. >> > >> That is its only value.
--
Crash McBash
Yep.
Labour ignored Ministry of Health advice that this initiative will not work:
https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/off-the-shelf/story/2018907819/ministers-were-advised-taking-gst-off-fruit-and-vege-would-not-lower-prices
But they went ahead anyway . This demonstrates that Labour are more interested in getting dumb people to vote for them than they are in helping said dumb people with their cost of living.
it. Our version will not be quite as complicated as in Australia.
What we do know is that there are many layers of complexity created by this dimwitted policy. Labour have already admitted it requires a bureaucracy to "monitor" pricing. Then there's the whole issue of deciding what constitutes "fresh" produce and
t work but they lie and propose it, because in their abject desperation they are hoping to get some votes. Unfortunately for them the public are not as stupid as they hoped.
It is a stupid policy released by dishonest people and aimed at stupid people. Grant Robertson knows it won't work. The Ministry of Health experts know it won't work. Most or all independent economists know it won't work. Labour really do know it won'
I should also have mentioned that Labour's 2018 Tax Working Group knew it won't work.
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 10:37:49 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On 20 Sep 2023 22:08:42 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:How can they be audited? The only source of information is the
On 2023-09-20, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
I have not seen any in depth analysis of how this can be audited -And that is the bottom line.
beyond getting the Grocery Commissioner to 'monitor' this.
https://tinyurl.com/mr3zankr
'Monitor' is not what is required - audits would normally do this,
except something like this is impossible to audit. Every Supermarket
(like every other GST-registered entity) will file and pay GST and for >>>> the most part this is a simple calculation based on total revenue -
which can be audited. Introducing GST-exempt products means that
total revenue can no longer be used - because some of it came from
GST-exempt sales. So businesses selling some products that are
GST-exempt will have to record GST-liable revenue separate to total
revenue, and GST-liable revenue cannot be audited in any way because
the sole record of this information is with the entity.
This is the reason that GST was designed the way it was, and why
various government-commissioned reports have recommended against this
option.
In this case, the Supermarkets can take the option that all food is
priced and sold as it is currently. Compiling a GST return is a
back-office function and not passing on the GST exemption on various
exempt products will be used to offset increased costs and (probably)
bottom-line profitability. The price per kg of fruit and veges is so
volatile (on a daily basis) that even on the day the exemption comes
into force, there is no way to tell if the GST exemption has been
passed on by lowering retail prices.
There are potentially some businesses who only sell GST-exempt food
(like Farmers Market vendors and specialist Fruit&vege retailers).
These folks cannot compete with Supermarkets on volumes so are
unlikely to be able to offer cheaper produce.
Labour have revealed themselves to be clueless. This policy cannot
achieve what it sets out to achieve, but it can be used to win votes.
That is its only value.
Is National still planning to do this, at one point they "matched" Labour's >>>offer.
Ideally what should have happened in a case such as this, is the Government >>>should consider the advice see that it is not going to work in all >>>probability and the explain this to the public. After all they have many >>>thousand of PR folks.
How the hell do I know that there is no GST on the cabbage? As Crash points >>>out the price varies within the error of GST. At least a loaf of your >>>favourate bread remains "constant" so there is some check one can do.
Good summary Crash.
Once the GST is "messed" with a simple effective tax will start the ball >>>rolling into an in effective system. KISS really does apply in this case.
The whole system needs to be transparent - if no GST was paid by the >>supermarkets on certain goods when purchased, they will not be able to >>charge it when those goods are sold in their retail stores. The system
must be able to be audited, and the Grocery Commissioner will be
looking for excessive profits on GST-exempt goods.
retailers records - unlike revenue, which can be audited from external >sources (principally bank accounts).
In effect those arguing against lower costs being passed on are
confirming that they are happy with a cartel ripping off the public.
I am not arguing in favour of anything. I am simply repeating the
reasons why retailers might choose to increase their profit margins to
pay the additional costs of record-keeping with a product mix that
includes GST-exempt and GST-liable products. Currently, with most
companies collecting GST it is on their entire product or service
offerings and therefore a revenue tax that is very simple to
administer
On 20 Sep 2023 22:08:42 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:No one is arguing that. TGey are arguing that there is no way to audit it, as are the experts.
On 2023-09-20, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
I have not seen any in depth analysis of how this can be audited -And that is the bottom line.
beyond getting the Grocery Commissioner to 'monitor' this.
https://tinyurl.com/mr3zankr
'Monitor' is not what is required - audits would normally do this,
except something like this is impossible to audit. Every Supermarket
(like every other GST-registered entity) will file and pay GST and for
the most part this is a simple calculation based on total revenue -
which can be audited. Introducing GST-exempt products means that
total revenue can no longer be used - because some of it came from
GST-exempt sales. So businesses selling some products that are
GST-exempt will have to record GST-liable revenue separate to total
revenue, and GST-liable revenue cannot be audited in any way because
the sole record of this information is with the entity.
This is the reason that GST was designed the way it was, and why
various government-commissioned reports have recommended against this
option.
In this case, the Supermarkets can take the option that all food is
priced and sold as it is currently. Compiling a GST return is a
back-office function and not passing on the GST exemption on various
exempt products will be used to offset increased costs and (probably)
bottom-line profitability. The price per kg of fruit and veges is so
volatile (on a daily basis) that even on the day the exemption comes
into force, there is no way to tell if the GST exemption has been
passed on by lowering retail prices.
There are potentially some businesses who only sell GST-exempt food
(like Farmers Market vendors and specialist Fruit&vege retailers).
These folks cannot compete with Supermarkets on volumes so are
unlikely to be able to offer cheaper produce.
Labour have revealed themselves to be clueless. This policy cannot
achieve what it sets out to achieve, but it can be used to win votes.
That is its only value.
Is National still planning to do this, at one point they "matched" Labour's >>offer.
Ideally what should have happened in a case such as this, is the Government >>should consider the advice see that it is not going to work in all >>probability and the explain this to the public. After all they have many >>thousand of PR folks.
How the hell do I know that there is no GST on the cabbage? As Crash points >>out the price varies within the error of GST. At least a loaf of your >>favourate bread remains "constant" so there is some check one can do.
Good summary Crash.
Once the GST is "messed" with a simple effective tax will start the ball >>rolling into an in effective system. KISS really does apply in this case.
The whole system needs to be transparent - if no GST was paid by the >supermarkets on certain goods when purchased, they will not be able to
charge it when those goods are sold in their retail stores. The system
must be able to be audited, and the Grocery Commissioner will be
looking for excessive profits on GST-exempt goods.
In effect those arguing against lower costs being passed on are
confirming that they are happy with a cartel ripping off the public.
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 11:01:04 +1200, Crash <nog...@dontbother.invalid>Why would business owners complain? Isn't going to affect them!
wrote:
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 10:37:49 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On 20 Sep 2023 22:08:42 GMT, Gordon <Gor...@leaf.net.nz> wrote:How can they be audited? The only source of information is the
On 2023-09-20, Crash <nog...@dontbother.invalid> wrote:The whole system needs to be transparent - if no GST was paid by the >>supermarkets on certain goods when purchased, they will not be able to >>charge it when those goods are sold in their retail stores. The system >>must be able to be audited, and the Grocery Commissioner will be
I have not seen any in depth analysis of how this can be audited -And that is the bottom line.
beyond getting the Grocery Commissioner to 'monitor' this.
https://tinyurl.com/mr3zankr
'Monitor' is not what is required - audits would normally do this,
except something like this is impossible to audit. Every Supermarket >>>> (like every other GST-registered entity) will file and pay GST and for >>>> the most part this is a simple calculation based on total revenue - >>>> which can be audited. Introducing GST-exempt products means that
total revenue can no longer be used - because some of it came from
GST-exempt sales. So businesses selling some products that are
GST-exempt will have to record GST-liable revenue separate to total >>>> revenue, and GST-liable revenue cannot be audited in any way because >>>> the sole record of this information is with the entity.
This is the reason that GST was designed the way it was, and why
various government-commissioned reports have recommended against this >>>> option.
In this case, the Supermarkets can take the option that all food is >>>> priced and sold as it is currently. Compiling a GST return is a
back-office function and not passing on the GST exemption on various >>>> exempt products will be used to offset increased costs and (probably) >>>> bottom-line profitability. The price per kg of fruit and veges is so >>>> volatile (on a daily basis) that even on the day the exemption comes >>>> into force, there is no way to tell if the GST exemption has been
passed on by lowering retail prices.
There are potentially some businesses who only sell GST-exempt food >>>> (like Farmers Market vendors and specialist Fruit&vege retailers).
These folks cannot compete with Supermarkets on volumes so are
unlikely to be able to offer cheaper produce.
Labour have revealed themselves to be clueless. This policy cannot
achieve what it sets out to achieve, but it can be used to win votes. >>>> That is its only value.
Is National still planning to do this, at one point they "matched" Labour's
offer.
Ideally what should have happened in a case such as this, is the Government
should consider the advice see that it is not going to work in all >>>probability and the explain this to the public. After all they have many >>>thousand of PR folks.
How the hell do I know that there is no GST on the cabbage? As Crash points
out the price varies within the error of GST. At least a loaf of your >>>favourate bread remains "constant" so there is some check one can do.
Good summary Crash.
Once the GST is "messed" with a simple effective tax will start the ball >>>rolling into an in effective system. KISS really does apply in this case. >>
looking for excessive profits on GST-exempt goods.
retailers records - unlike revenue, which can be audited from external >sources (principally bank accounts).
In effect those arguing against lower costs being passed on are >>confirming that they are happy with a cartel ripping off the public.
I am not arguing in favour of anything. I am simply repeating theSo it will be marginally more complex to administer - but I do not
reasons why retailers might choose to increase their profit margins to
pay the additional costs of record-keeping with a product mix that >includes GST-exempt and GST-liable products. Currently, with most >companies collecting GST it is on their entire product or service >offerings and therefore a revenue tax that is very simple to
administer
recall any business people complaining about it - are you able to give
any references for business owners being concerned?
On Wed, 20 Sep 2023 15:59:30 -0700 (PDT), JohnO <john...@gmail.com>this will naturally be gamed. In other words there's unproductive cost, compliance and administrative overhead being created. The end result is more money wasted that could be better deployed, and the principal beneficiaries of all this will be
wrote:
On Thursday, 21 September 2023 at 10:58:22 UTC+12, JohnO wrote:
On Thursday, 21 September 2023 at 10:38:59 UTC+12, Rich80105 wrote:
On Wed, 20 Sep 2023 14:17:34 -0700 (PDT), JohnO <john...@gmail.com>You have no idea whether it works in Australia or not, and are making shit up.
wrote:
On Thursday, 21 September 2023 at 09:08:42 UTC+12, Crash wrote:It works in Australia, who have developed good systems to cope with
I have not seen any in depth analysis of how this can be audited - >> > >> beyond getting the Grocery Commissioner to 'monitor' this.
https://tinyurl.com/mr3zankr
'Monitor' is not what is required - audits would normally do this, >> > >> except something like this is impossible to audit. Every Supermarket >> > >> (like every other GST-registered entity) will file and pay GST and for
the most part this is a simple calculation based on total revenue - >> > >> which can be audited. Introducing GST-exempt products means that
total revenue can no longer be used - because some of it came from >> > >> GST-exempt sales. So businesses selling some products that are
GST-exempt will have to record GST-liable revenue separate to total >> > >> revenue, and GST-liable revenue cannot be audited in any way because >> > >> the sole record of this information is with the entity.
This is the reason that GST was designed the way it was, and why
various government-commissioned reports have recommended against this
option.
In this case, the Supermarkets can take the option that all food is >> > >> priced and sold as it is currently. Compiling a GST return is a
back-office function and not passing on the GST exemption on various >> > >> exempt products will be used to offset increased costs and (probably)
bottom-line profitability. The price per kg of fruit and veges is so >> > >> volatile (on a daily basis) that even on the day the exemption comes >> > >> into force, there is no way to tell if the GST exemption has been
passed on by lowering retail prices.
There are potentially some businesses who only sell GST-exempt food >> > >> (like Farmers Market vendors and specialist Fruit&vege retailers). >> > >> These folks cannot compete with Supermarkets on volumes so are
unlikely to be able to offer cheaper produce.
Labour have revealed themselves to be clueless. This policy cannot >> > >> achieve what it sets out to achieve, but it can be used to win votes.
That is its only value.
--
Crash McBash
Yep.
Labour ignored Ministry of Health advice that this initiative will not work:
https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/off-the-shelf/story/2018907819/ministers-were-advised-taking-gst-off-fruit-and-vege-would-not-lower-prices
But they went ahead anyway . This demonstrates that Labour are more interested in getting dumb people to vote for them than they are in helping said dumb people with their cost of living.
it. Our version will not be quite as complicated as in Australia.
What we do know is that there are many layers of complexity created by this dimwitted policy. Labour have already admitted it requires a bureaucracy to "monitor" pricing. Then there's the whole issue of deciding what constitutes "fresh" produce and
won't work but they lie and propose it, because in their abject desperation they are hoping to get some votes. Unfortunately for them the public are not as stupid as they hoped.
It is a stupid policy released by dishonest people and aimed at stupid people. Grant Robertson knows it won't work. The Ministry of Health experts know it won't work. Most or all independent economists know it won't work. Labour really do know it
I should also have mentioned that Labour's 2018 Tax Working Group knew it won't work.Why - it is an obvious lie! I do not believe you JohnO - quote from
their report where that is said . . .
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 20 Sep 2023 22:08:42 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:No one is arguing that. TGey are arguing that there is no way to audit it, as >are the experts.
On 2023-09-20, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
I have not seen any in depth analysis of how this can be audited -And that is the bottom line.
beyond getting the Grocery Commissioner to 'monitor' this.
https://tinyurl.com/mr3zankr
'Monitor' is not what is required - audits would normally do this,
except something like this is impossible to audit. Every Supermarket
(like every other GST-registered entity) will file and pay GST and for >>>> the most part this is a simple calculation based on total revenue -
which can be audited. Introducing GST-exempt products means that
total revenue can no longer be used - because some of it came from
GST-exempt sales. So businesses selling some products that are
GST-exempt will have to record GST-liable revenue separate to total
revenue, and GST-liable revenue cannot be audited in any way because
the sole record of this information is with the entity.
This is the reason that GST was designed the way it was, and why
various government-commissioned reports have recommended against this
option.
In this case, the Supermarkets can take the option that all food is
priced and sold as it is currently. Compiling a GST return is a
back-office function and not passing on the GST exemption on various
exempt products will be used to offset increased costs and (probably)
bottom-line profitability. The price per kg of fruit and veges is so
volatile (on a daily basis) that even on the day the exemption comes
into force, there is no way to tell if the GST exemption has been
passed on by lowering retail prices.
There are potentially some businesses who only sell GST-exempt food
(like Farmers Market vendors and specialist Fruit&vege retailers).
These folks cannot compete with Supermarkets on volumes so are
unlikely to be able to offer cheaper produce.
Labour have revealed themselves to be clueless. This policy cannot
achieve what it sets out to achieve, but it can be used to win votes.
That is its only value.
Is National still planning to do this, at one point they "matched" Labour's >>>offer.
Ideally what should have happened in a case such as this, is the Government >>>should consider the advice see that it is not going to work in all >>>probability and the explain this to the public. After all they have many >>>thousand of PR folks.
How the hell do I know that there is no GST on the cabbage? As Crash points >>>out the price varies within the error of GST. At least a loaf of your >>>favourate bread remains "constant" so there is some check one can do.
Good summary Crash.
Once the GST is "messed" with a simple effective tax will start the ball >>>rolling into an in effective system. KISS really does apply in this case.
The whole system needs to be transparent - if no GST was paid by the >>supermarkets on certain goods when purchased, they will not be able to >>charge it when those goods are sold in their retail stores. The system
must be able to be audited, and the Grocery Commissioner will be
looking for excessive profits on GST-exempt goods.
In effect those arguing against lower costs being passed on are
confirming that they are happy with a cartel ripping off the public.
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 10:52:08 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 10:31:08 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>wrote:
On Wed, 20 Sep 2023 14:17:34 -0700 (PDT), JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com> >>>wrote:
On Thursday, 21 September 2023 at 09:08:42 UTC+12, Crash wrote:
I have not seen any in depth analysis of how this can be audited -
beyond getting the Grocery Commissioner to 'monitor' this.
https://tinyurl.com/mr3zankr
'Monitor' is not what is required - audits would normally do this,
except something like this is impossible to audit. Every Supermarket >>>>> (like every other GST-registered entity) will file and pay GST and for >>>>> the most part this is a simple calculation based on total revenue -
which can be audited. Introducing GST-exempt products means that
total revenue can no longer be used - because some of it came from
GST-exempt sales. So businesses selling some products that are
GST-exempt will have to record GST-liable revenue separate to total
revenue, and GST-liable revenue cannot be audited in any way because >>>>> the sole record of this information is with the entity.
This is the reason that GST was designed the way it was, and why
various government-commissioned reports have recommended against this >>>>> option.
In this case, the Supermarkets can take the option that all food is
priced and sold as it is currently. Compiling a GST return is a
back-office function and not passing on the GST exemption on various >>>>> exempt products will be used to offset increased costs and (probably) >>>>> bottom-line profitability. The price per kg of fruit and veges is so >>>>> volatile (on a daily basis) that even on the day the exemption comes >>>>> into force, there is no way to tell if the GST exemption has been
passed on by lowering retail prices.
There are potentially some businesses who only sell GST-exempt food
(like Farmers Market vendors and specialist Fruit&vege retailers).
These folks cannot compete with Supermarkets on volumes so are
unlikely to be able to offer cheaper produce.
Labour have revealed themselves to be clueless. This policy cannot
achieve what it sets out to achieve, but it can be used to win votes. >>>>> That is its only value.
--
Crash McBash
Yep.
Labour ignored Ministry of Health advice that this initiative will not work:
https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/off-the-shelf/story/2018907819/ministers-were-advised-taking-gst-off-fruit-and-vege-would-not-lower-prices
But they went ahead anyway . This demonstrates that Labour are more interested in getting dumb people to vote for them than they are in helping said dumb people with their cost of living.
It works in Australia, who have developed good systems to cope with
it. Our version will not be quite as complicated as in Australia.
Then why have Labour not explained how their proposed changes would
work citing the Australian experience? There is a good reason - and
that is exactly why at least 2 reports to the Government about tax >>revisions have recommended against it.
Rich you have not addressed my core contention - that GST-exemption
will not result in reduced retail pricing because there is no way to
audit whether this has happened.
I am not aware of anyone ever suggesting that any part of taxation not
be able to be audited. Where did you get that idea from? GST is
relatively straightforward - what part of it cannot be tracked? All businesses must be able to track gst paid on their purchases, and GST
they charge on sales - they will now have a return for some purchases
and sales that do not have GST related to them. Most countries around
the world have different rates of sales tax / VAT / GST etc for
different goods. Why do you contend that our business owners are not
capable of coping with similar requirements?
On Thursday, September 21, 2023 at 12:41:39?PM UTC+12, Rich80105 wrote:
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 11:01:04 +1200, Crash <nog...@dontbother.invalid>Why would business owners complain? Isn't going to affect them!
wrote:
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 10:37:49 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich...@hotmail.com>So it will be marginally more complex to administer - but I do not
wrote:
On 20 Sep 2023 22:08:42 GMT, Gordon <Gor...@leaf.net.nz> wrote:How can they be audited? The only source of information is the
On 2023-09-20, Crash <nog...@dontbother.invalid> wrote:The whole system needs to be transparent - if no GST was paid by the
I have not seen any in depth analysis of how this can be audited -And that is the bottom line.
beyond getting the Grocery Commissioner to 'monitor' this.
https://tinyurl.com/mr3zankr
'Monitor' is not what is required - audits would normally do this,
except something like this is impossible to audit. Every Supermarket
(like every other GST-registered entity) will file and pay GST and for >> >>>> the most part this is a simple calculation based on total revenue -
which can be audited. Introducing GST-exempt products means that
total revenue can no longer be used - because some of it came from
GST-exempt sales. So businesses selling some products that are
GST-exempt will have to record GST-liable revenue separate to total
revenue, and GST-liable revenue cannot be audited in any way because
the sole record of this information is with the entity.
This is the reason that GST was designed the way it was, and why
various government-commissioned reports have recommended against this >> >>>> option.
In this case, the Supermarkets can take the option that all food is
priced and sold as it is currently. Compiling a GST return is a
back-office function and not passing on the GST exemption on various
exempt products will be used to offset increased costs and (probably) >> >>>> bottom-line profitability. The price per kg of fruit and veges is so
volatile (on a daily basis) that even on the day the exemption comes
into force, there is no way to tell if the GST exemption has been
passed on by lowering retail prices.
There are potentially some businesses who only sell GST-exempt food
(like Farmers Market vendors and specialist Fruit&vege retailers).
These folks cannot compete with Supermarkets on volumes so are
unlikely to be able to offer cheaper produce.
Labour have revealed themselves to be clueless. This policy cannot
achieve what it sets out to achieve, but it can be used to win votes. >> >>>> That is its only value.
Is National still planning to do this, at one point they "matched" Labour's
offer.
Ideally what should have happened in a case such as this, is the Government
should consider the advice see that it is not going to work in all
probability and the explain this to the public. After all they have many >> >>>thousand of PR folks.
How the hell do I know that there is no GST on the cabbage? As Crash points
out the price varies within the error of GST. At least a loaf of your
favourate bread remains "constant" so there is some check one can do.
Good summary Crash.
Once the GST is "messed" with a simple effective tax will start the ball >> >>>rolling into an in effective system. KISS really does apply in this case. >> >>
supermarkets on certain goods when purchased, they will not be able to
charge it when those goods are sold in their retail stores. The system
must be able to be audited, and the Grocery Commissioner will be
looking for excessive profits on GST-exempt goods.
retailers records - unlike revenue, which can be audited from external
sources (principally bank accounts).
In effect those arguing against lower costs being passed on are
confirming that they are happy with a cartel ripping off the public.
I am not arguing in favour of anything. I am simply repeating the
reasons why retailers might choose to increase their profit margins to
pay the additional costs of record-keeping with a product mix that
includes GST-exempt and GST-liable products. Currently, with most
companies collecting GST it is on their entire product or service
offerings and therefore a revenue tax that is very simple to
administer
recall any business people complaining about it - are you able to give
any references for business owners being concerned?
On Wed, 20 Sep 2023 20:41:59 -0700 (PDT), John BowesOh dear indeed! You need to get it explained to you Rich. The efforts of JohnO, Tony and Crash don't seem to have penetrated that lump of granite separating your ears Rich!
<bowes...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, September 21, 2023 at 12:41:39?PM UTC+12, Rich80105 wrote:Oh dear - get someone to explain it to you, John Bowes.
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 11:01:04 +1200, Crash <nog...@dontbother.invalid>Why would business owners complain? Isn't going to affect them!
wrote:
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 10:37:49 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich...@hotmail.com>So it will be marginally more complex to administer - but I do not
wrote:
On 20 Sep 2023 22:08:42 GMT, Gordon <Gor...@leaf.net.nz> wrote:How can they be audited? The only source of information is the
On 2023-09-20, Crash <nog...@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
I have not seen any in depth analysis of how this can be audited - >> >>>> beyond getting the Grocery Commissioner to 'monitor' this.And that is the bottom line.
https://tinyurl.com/mr3zankr
'Monitor' is not what is required - audits would normally do this, >> >>>> except something like this is impossible to audit. Every Supermarket >> >>>> (like every other GST-registered entity) will file and pay GST and for
the most part this is a simple calculation based on total revenue - >> >>>> which can be audited. Introducing GST-exempt products means that
total revenue can no longer be used - because some of it came from >> >>>> GST-exempt sales. So businesses selling some products that are
GST-exempt will have to record GST-liable revenue separate to total >> >>>> revenue, and GST-liable revenue cannot be audited in any way because >> >>>> the sole record of this information is with the entity.
This is the reason that GST was designed the way it was, and why
various government-commissioned reports have recommended against this
option.
In this case, the Supermarkets can take the option that all food is >> >>>> priced and sold as it is currently. Compiling a GST return is a
back-office function and not passing on the GST exemption on various >> >>>> exempt products will be used to offset increased costs and (probably)
bottom-line profitability. The price per kg of fruit and veges is so >> >>>> volatile (on a daily basis) that even on the day the exemption comes >> >>>> into force, there is no way to tell if the GST exemption has been
passed on by lowering retail prices.
There are potentially some businesses who only sell GST-exempt food >> >>>> (like Farmers Market vendors and specialist Fruit&vege retailers). >> >>>> These folks cannot compete with Supermarkets on volumes so are
unlikely to be able to offer cheaper produce.
Labour have revealed themselves to be clueless. This policy cannot >> >>>> achieve what it sets out to achieve, but it can be used to win votes.
That is its only value.
Is National still planning to do this, at one point they "matched" Labour's
offer.
Ideally what should have happened in a case such as this, is the Government
should consider the advice see that it is not going to work in all
probability and the explain this to the public. After all they have many
thousand of PR folks.
How the hell do I know that there is no GST on the cabbage? As Crash points
out the price varies within the error of GST. At least a loaf of your >> >>>favourate bread remains "constant" so there is some check one can do. >> >>>
Good summary Crash.
Once the GST is "messed" with a simple effective tax will start the ball
rolling into an in effective system. KISS really does apply in this case.
The whole system needs to be transparent - if no GST was paid by the
supermarkets on certain goods when purchased, they will not be able to >> >>charge it when those goods are sold in their retail stores. The system >> >>must be able to be audited, and the Grocery Commissioner will be
looking for excessive profits on GST-exempt goods.
retailers records - unlike revenue, which can be audited from external >> >sources (principally bank accounts).
In effect those arguing against lower costs being passed on are
confirming that they are happy with a cartel ripping off the public.
I am not arguing in favour of anything. I am simply repeating the
reasons why retailers might choose to increase their profit margins to >> >pay the additional costs of record-keeping with a product mix that
includes GST-exempt and GST-liable products. Currently, with most
companies collecting GST it is on their entire product or service
offerings and therefore a revenue tax that is very simple to
administer
recall any business people complaining about it - are you able to give
any references for business owners being concerned?
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 10:52:08 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 10:31:08 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>wrote:
On Wed, 20 Sep 2023 14:17:34 -0700 (PDT), JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com> >>>wrote:
On Thursday, 21 September 2023 at 09:08:42 UTC+12, Crash wrote:
I have not seen any in depth analysis of how this can be audited -
beyond getting the Grocery Commissioner to 'monitor' this.
https://tinyurl.com/mr3zankr
'Monitor' is not what is required - audits would normally do this,
except something like this is impossible to audit. Every Supermarket >>>>> (like every other GST-registered entity) will file and pay GST and for >>>>> the most part this is a simple calculation based on total revenue -
which can be audited. Introducing GST-exempt products means that
total revenue can no longer be used - because some of it came from
GST-exempt sales. So businesses selling some products that are
GST-exempt will have to record GST-liable revenue separate to total
revenue, and GST-liable revenue cannot be audited in any way because >>>>> the sole record of this information is with the entity.
This is the reason that GST was designed the way it was, and why
various government-commissioned reports have recommended against this >>>>> option.
In this case, the Supermarkets can take the option that all food is
priced and sold as it is currently. Compiling a GST return is a
back-office function and not passing on the GST exemption on various >>>>> exempt products will be used to offset increased costs and (probably) >>>>> bottom-line profitability. The price per kg of fruit and veges is so >>>>> volatile (on a daily basis) that even on the day the exemption comes >>>>> into force, there is no way to tell if the GST exemption has been
passed on by lowering retail prices.
There are potentially some businesses who only sell GST-exempt food
(like Farmers Market vendors and specialist Fruit&vege retailers).
These folks cannot compete with Supermarkets on volumes so are
unlikely to be able to offer cheaper produce.
Labour have revealed themselves to be clueless. This policy cannot
achieve what it sets out to achieve, but it can be used to win votes. >>>>> That is its only value.
--
Crash McBash
Yep.
Labour ignored Ministry of Health advice that this initiative will not work:
https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/off-the-shelf/story/2018907819/ministers-were-advised-taking-gst-off-fruit-and-vege-would-not-lower-prices
But they went ahead anyway . This demonstrates that Labour are more interested in getting dumb people to vote for them than they are in helping said dumb people with their cost of living.
It works in Australia, who have developed good systems to cope with
it. Our version will not be quite as complicated as in Australia.
Then why have Labour not explained how their proposed changes would
work citing the Australian experience? There is a good reason - and
that is exactly why at least 2 reports to the Government about tax >>revisions have recommended against it.
Rich you have not addressed my core contention - that GST-exemption
will not result in reduced retail pricing because there is no way to
audit whether this has happened.
I am not aware of anyone ever suggesting that any part of taxation not
be able to be audited. Where did you get that idea from? GST is
relatively straightforward - what part of it cannot be tracked? All >businesses must be able to track gst paid on their purchases, and GST
they charge on sales - they will now have a return for some purchases
and sales that do not have GST related to them. Most countries around
the world have different rates of sales tax / VAT / GST etc for
different goods. Why do you contend that our business owners are not
capable of coping with similar requirements?
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 12:18:28 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>I was responding to the assertion that businesses could not separate
wrote:
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 10:52:08 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>wrote:
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 10:31:08 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>wrote:
On Wed, 20 Sep 2023 14:17:34 -0700 (PDT), JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com> >>>>wrote:
On Thursday, 21 September 2023 at 09:08:42 UTC+12, Crash wrote:
I have not seen any in depth analysis of how this can be audited - >>>>>> beyond getting the Grocery Commissioner to 'monitor' this.
https://tinyurl.com/mr3zankr
'Monitor' is not what is required - audits would normally do this, >>>>>> except something like this is impossible to audit. Every Supermarket >>>>>> (like every other GST-registered entity) will file and pay GST and for >>>>>> the most part this is a simple calculation based on total revenue - >>>>>> which can be audited. Introducing GST-exempt products means that
total revenue can no longer be used - because some of it came from >>>>>> GST-exempt sales. So businesses selling some products that are
GST-exempt will have to record GST-liable revenue separate to total >>>>>> revenue, and GST-liable revenue cannot be audited in any way because >>>>>> the sole record of this information is with the entity.
This is the reason that GST was designed the way it was, and why
various government-commissioned reports have recommended against this >>>>>> option.
In this case, the Supermarkets can take the option that all food is >>>>>> priced and sold as it is currently. Compiling a GST return is a
back-office function and not passing on the GST exemption on various >>>>>> exempt products will be used to offset increased costs and (probably) >>>>>> bottom-line profitability. The price per kg of fruit and veges is so >>>>>> volatile (on a daily basis) that even on the day the exemption comes >>>>>> into force, there is no way to tell if the GST exemption has been
passed on by lowering retail prices.
There are potentially some businesses who only sell GST-exempt food >>>>>> (like Farmers Market vendors and specialist Fruit&vege retailers). >>>>>> These folks cannot compete with Supermarkets on volumes so are
unlikely to be able to offer cheaper produce.
Labour have revealed themselves to be clueless. This policy cannot >>>>>> achieve what it sets out to achieve, but it can be used to win votes. >>>>>> That is its only value.
--
Crash McBash
Yep.
Labour ignored Ministry of Health advice that this initiative will not work:
https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/off-the-shelf/story/2018907819/ministers-were-advised-taking-gst-off-fruit-and-vege-would-not-lower-prices
But they went ahead anyway . This demonstrates that Labour are more interested in getting dumb people to vote for them than they are in helping said dumb people with their cost of living.
It works in Australia, who have developed good systems to cope with
it. Our version will not be quite as complicated as in Australia.
Then why have Labour not explained how their proposed changes would
work citing the Australian experience? There is a good reason - and
that is exactly why at least 2 reports to the Government about tax >>>revisions have recommended against it.
Rich you have not addressed my core contention - that GST-exemption
will not result in reduced retail pricing because there is no way to >>>audit whether this has happened.
I am not aware of anyone ever suggesting that any part of taxation not
be able to be audited. Where did you get that idea from? GST is
relatively straightforward - what part of it cannot be tracked? All >>businesses must be able to track gst paid on their purchases, and GST
they charge on sales - they will now have a return for some purchases
and sales that do not have GST related to them. Most countries around
the world have different rates of sales tax / VAT / GST etc for
different goods. Why do you contend that our business owners are not >>capable of coping with similar requirements?
I have never made any comment in this thread on business owners
capability. Why do you try to insist I have said something that I have
not said?
The fact remains that there is no practical way of enforcing price
reduction on fruit&veges when the change is made from the current
GST-liable to GST-exempt. Increasing margins is not illegal and if >legislation on this changes this then we are entering a whole new
level of regulation.
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 18:01:35 +1200, Crash <nog...@dontbother.invalid>Another political party broadcast from the local Labour disinformation project. Funny how if National had proposed this Rich would have been grizzling like a three year old who'd dropped it's ice cream in the dirt...
wrote:
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 12:18:28 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 10:52:08 +1200, Crash <nog...@dontbother.invalid> >>wrote:
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 10:31:08 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich...@hotmail.com> >>>wrote:
On Wed, 20 Sep 2023 14:17:34 -0700 (PDT), JohnO <john...@gmail.com> >>>>wrote:
On Thursday, 21 September 2023 at 09:08:42 UTC+12, Crash wrote:
I have not seen any in depth analysis of how this can be audited - >>>>>> beyond getting the Grocery Commissioner to 'monitor' this.
https://tinyurl.com/mr3zankr
'Monitor' is not what is required - audits would normally do this, >>>>>> except something like this is impossible to audit. Every Supermarket >>>>>> (like every other GST-registered entity) will file and pay GST and for
the most part this is a simple calculation based on total revenue - >>>>>> which can be audited. Introducing GST-exempt products means that >>>>>> total revenue can no longer be used - because some of it came from >>>>>> GST-exempt sales. So businesses selling some products that are
GST-exempt will have to record GST-liable revenue separate to total >>>>>> revenue, and GST-liable revenue cannot be audited in any way because >>>>>> the sole record of this information is with the entity.
This is the reason that GST was designed the way it was, and why >>>>>> various government-commissioned reports have recommended against this >>>>>> option.
In this case, the Supermarkets can take the option that all food is >>>>>> priced and sold as it is currently. Compiling a GST return is a >>>>>> back-office function and not passing on the GST exemption on various >>>>>> exempt products will be used to offset increased costs and (probably) >>>>>> bottom-line profitability. The price per kg of fruit and veges is so >>>>>> volatile (on a daily basis) that even on the day the exemption comes >>>>>> into force, there is no way to tell if the GST exemption has been >>>>>> passed on by lowering retail prices.
There are potentially some businesses who only sell GST-exempt food >>>>>> (like Farmers Market vendors and specialist Fruit&vege retailers). >>>>>> These folks cannot compete with Supermarkets on volumes so are
unlikely to be able to offer cheaper produce.
Labour have revealed themselves to be clueless. This policy cannot >>>>>> achieve what it sets out to achieve, but it can be used to win votes. >>>>>> That is its only value.
--
Crash McBash
Yep.
Labour ignored Ministry of Health advice that this initiative will not work:
https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/off-the-shelf/story/2018907819/ministers-were-advised-taking-gst-off-fruit-and-vege-would-not-lower-prices
But they went ahead anyway . This demonstrates that Labour are more interested in getting dumb people to vote for them than they are in helping said dumb people with their cost of living.
It works in Australia, who have developed good systems to cope with >>>>it. Our version will not be quite as complicated as in Australia.
Then why have Labour not explained how their proposed changes would >>>work citing the Australian experience? There is a good reason - and >>>that is exactly why at least 2 reports to the Government about tax >>>revisions have recommended against it.
Rich you have not addressed my core contention - that GST-exemption >>>will not result in reduced retail pricing because there is no way to >>>audit whether this has happened.
I am not aware of anyone ever suggesting that any part of taxation not >>be able to be audited. Where did you get that idea from? GST is >>relatively straightforward - what part of it cannot be tracked? All >>businesses must be able to track gst paid on their purchases, and GST >>they charge on sales - they will now have a return for some purchases >>and sales that do not have GST related to them. Most countries around >>the world have different rates of sales tax / VAT / GST etc for >>different goods. Why do you contend that our business owners are not >>capable of coping with similar requirements?
I have never made any comment in this thread on business owners >capability. Why do you try to insist I have said something that I haveI was responding to the assertion that businesses could not separate products sufficiently for this to be audited - that is of course
not said?
nonsense; our business owners are just as capable as those overseas
where the system runs smoothly. I am glad that you were not pretending
that our business people are not capable . . .
The fact remains that there is no practical way of enforcing price >reduction on fruit&veges when the change is made from the current >GST-liable to GST-exempt. Increasing margins is not illegal and if >legislation on this changes this then we are entering a whole newClearly you do not believe in efficient markets - they do get attacked
level of regulation.
by every National Government who try to avoid level playing fields and prefer rigged systems like the one they set up for electricity. The
sale of fruit and vegetables is however not totally dominates by the supermarkets - if they try to increase margins to retain prices that
will be evident fairly quickly - just as many households go to The
Warehouse for butter, some will seek lower prices than supermarkets
for fruit and veges. The position that has been set up to monitor competition will be able to see contract prices; produce will find an acceptable level that is lower than current but still delivers profit.
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 18:01:35 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 12:18:28 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>wrote:I was responding to the assertion that businesses could not separate
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 10:52:08 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>wrote:
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 10:31:08 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>wrote:
On Wed, 20 Sep 2023 14:17:34 -0700 (PDT), JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com> >>>>>wrote:
On Thursday, 21 September 2023 at 09:08:42 UTC+12, Crash wrote:
I have not seen any in depth analysis of how this can be audited - >>>>>>> beyond getting the Grocery Commissioner to 'monitor' this.
https://tinyurl.com/mr3zankr
'Monitor' is not what is required - audits would normally do this, >>>>>>> except something like this is impossible to audit. Every Supermarket >>>>>>> (like every other GST-registered entity) will file and pay GST and for >>>>>>> the most part this is a simple calculation based on total revenue - >>>>>>> which can be audited. Introducing GST-exempt products means that >>>>>>> total revenue can no longer be used - because some of it came from >>>>>>> GST-exempt sales. So businesses selling some products that are
GST-exempt will have to record GST-liable revenue separate to total >>>>>>> revenue, and GST-liable revenue cannot be audited in any way because >>>>>>> the sole record of this information is with the entity.
This is the reason that GST was designed the way it was, and why >>>>>>> various government-commissioned reports have recommended against this >>>>>>> option.
In this case, the Supermarkets can take the option that all food is >>>>>>> priced and sold as it is currently. Compiling a GST return is a
back-office function and not passing on the GST exemption on various >>>>>>> exempt products will be used to offset increased costs and (probably) >>>>>>> bottom-line profitability. The price per kg of fruit and veges is so >>>>>>> volatile (on a daily basis) that even on the day the exemption comes >>>>>>> into force, there is no way to tell if the GST exemption has been >>>>>>> passed on by lowering retail prices.
There are potentially some businesses who only sell GST-exempt food >>>>>>> (like Farmers Market vendors and specialist Fruit&vege retailers). >>>>>>> These folks cannot compete with Supermarkets on volumes so are
unlikely to be able to offer cheaper produce.
Labour have revealed themselves to be clueless. This policy cannot >>>>>>> achieve what it sets out to achieve, but it can be used to win votes. >>>>>>> That is its only value.
--
Crash McBash
Yep.
Labour ignored Ministry of Health advice that this initiative will not work:
https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/off-the-shelf/story/2018907819/ministers-were-advised-taking-gst-off-fruit-and-vege-would-not-lower-prices
But they went ahead anyway . This demonstrates that Labour are more interested in getting dumb people to vote for them than they are in helping said dumb people with their cost of living.
It works in Australia, who have developed good systems to cope with >>>>>it. Our version will not be quite as complicated as in Australia.
Then why have Labour not explained how their proposed changes would >>>>work citing the Australian experience? There is a good reason - and >>>>that is exactly why at least 2 reports to the Government about tax >>>>revisions have recommended against it.
Rich you have not addressed my core contention - that GST-exemption >>>>will not result in reduced retail pricing because there is no way to >>>>audit whether this has happened.
I am not aware of anyone ever suggesting that any part of taxation not
be able to be audited. Where did you get that idea from? GST is >>>relatively straightforward - what part of it cannot be tracked? All >>>businesses must be able to track gst paid on their purchases, and GST >>>they charge on sales - they will now have a return for some purchases
and sales that do not have GST related to them. Most countries around
the world have different rates of sales tax / VAT / GST etc for
different goods. Why do you contend that our business owners are not >>>capable of coping with similar requirements?
I have never made any comment in this thread on business owners
capability. Why do you try to insist I have said something that I have
not said?
products sufficiently for this to be audited
- that is of course
nonsense; our business owners are just as capable as those overseas
where the system runs smoothly. I am glad that you were not pretending
that our business people are not capable . . .
The fact remains that there is no practical way of enforcing price >>reduction on fruit&veges when the change is made from the current >>GST-liable to GST-exempt. Increasing margins is not illegal and if >>legislation on this changes this then we are entering a whole new
level of regulation.
Clearly you do not believe in efficient markets
- they do get attacked
by every National Government
who try to avoid level playing fields and
prefer rigged systems like the one they set up for electricity. The
sale of fruit and vegetables is however not totally dominates by the >supermarkets - if they try to increase margins to retain prices that
will be evident fairly quickly - just as many households go to The
Warehouse for butter, some will seek lower prices than supermarkets
for fruit and veges. The position that has been set up to monitor
competition will be able to see contract prices; produce will find an >acceptable level that is lower than current but still delivers profit.
On Fri, 22 Sep 2023 11:14:22 +1200, Crash <nog...@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 21:17:47 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 18:01:35 +1200, Crash <nog...@dontbother.invalid> >>wrote:
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 12:18:28 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich...@hotmail.com> >>>wrote:I was responding to the assertion that businesses could not separate >>products sufficiently for this to be audited
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 10:52:08 +1200, Crash <nog...@dontbother.invalid> >>>>wrote:
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 10:31:08 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich...@hotmail.com> >>>>>wrote:
On Wed, 20 Sep 2023 14:17:34 -0700 (PDT), JohnO <john...@gmail.com> >>>>>>wrote:
On Thursday, 21 September 2023 at 09:08:42 UTC+12, Crash wrote: >>>>>>>> I have not seen any in depth analysis of how this can be audited - >>>>>>>> beyond getting the Grocery Commissioner to 'monitor' this.
https://tinyurl.com/mr3zankr
'Monitor' is not what is required - audits would normally do this, >>>>>>>> except something like this is impossible to audit. Every Supermarket >>>>>>>> (like every other GST-registered entity) will file and pay GST and for
the most part this is a simple calculation based on total revenue - >>>>>>>> which can be audited. Introducing GST-exempt products means that >>>>>>>> total revenue can no longer be used - because some of it came from >>>>>>>> GST-exempt sales. So businesses selling some products that are >>>>>>>> GST-exempt will have to record GST-liable revenue separate to total >>>>>>>> revenue, and GST-liable revenue cannot be audited in any way because >>>>>>>> the sole record of this information is with the entity.
This is the reason that GST was designed the way it was, and why >>>>>>>> various government-commissioned reports have recommended against this
option.
In this case, the Supermarkets can take the option that all food is >>>>>>>> priced and sold as it is currently. Compiling a GST return is a >>>>>>>> back-office function and not passing on the GST exemption on various >>>>>>>> exempt products will be used to offset increased costs and (probably)
bottom-line profitability. The price per kg of fruit and veges is so >>>>>>>> volatile (on a daily basis) that even on the day the exemption comes >>>>>>>> into force, there is no way to tell if the GST exemption has been >>>>>>>> passed on by lowering retail prices.
There are potentially some businesses who only sell GST-exempt food >>>>>>>> (like Farmers Market vendors and specialist Fruit&vege retailers). >>>>>>>> These folks cannot compete with Supermarkets on volumes so are >>>>>>>> unlikely to be able to offer cheaper produce.
Labour have revealed themselves to be clueless. This policy cannot >>>>>>>> achieve what it sets out to achieve, but it can be used to win votes.
That is its only value.
--
Crash McBash
Yep.
Labour ignored Ministry of Health advice that this initiative will not work:
https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/off-the-shelf/story/2018907819/ministers-were-advised-taking-gst-off-fruit-and-vege-would-not-lower-prices
But they went ahead anyway . This demonstrates that Labour are more interested in getting dumb people to vote for them than they are in helping said dumb people with their cost of living.
It works in Australia, who have developed good systems to cope with >>>>>>it. Our version will not be quite as complicated as in Australia.
Then why have Labour not explained how their proposed changes would >>>>>work citing the Australian experience? There is a good reason - and >>>>>that is exactly why at least 2 reports to the Government about tax >>>>>revisions have recommended against it.
Rich you have not addressed my core contention - that GST-exemption >>>>>will not result in reduced retail pricing because there is no way to >>>>>audit whether this has happened.
I am not aware of anyone ever suggesting that any part of taxation not >>>>be able to be audited. Where did you get that idea from? GST is >>>>relatively straightforward - what part of it cannot be tracked? All >>>>businesses must be able to track gst paid on their purchases, and GST >>>>they charge on sales - they will now have a return for some purchases >>>>and sales that do not have GST related to them. Most countries around >>>>the world have different rates of sales tax / VAT / GST etc for >>>>different goods. Why do you contend that our business owners are not >>>>capable of coping with similar requirements?
I have never made any comment in this thread on business owners >>>capability. Why do you try to insist I have said something that I have >>>not said?
I never made that assertion. Once again you are attributing something
to me that I did not say. This is becoming tedious.
- that is of course
nonsense; our business owners are just as capable as those overseas
where the system runs smoothly. I am glad that you were not pretending >>that our business people are not capable . . .
The fact remains that there is no practical way of enforcing price >>>reduction on fruit&veges when the change is made from the current >>>GST-liable to GST-exempt. Increasing margins is not illegal and if >>>legislation on this changes this then we are entering a whole new
level of regulation.
Clearly you do not believe in efficient markets
You have no idea what I may or may not believe. This is not about
market efficiency but it is about trying to enforce retail price
reductions on food that moves to a GST-exempt status. You have not >addressed this. If I were so dishonest as you are I would thank you
for conceding this point - but I am not like you.
- they do get attacked
by every National Government
The debate is about changing fruit and veges to be GST-exempt.
National are not involved.
who try to avoid level playing fields and
prefer rigged systems like the one they set up for electricity. The
sale of fruit and vegetables is however not totally dominates by the >>supermarkets - if they try to increase margins to retain prices that
will be evident fairly quickly - just as many households go to The >>Warehouse for butter, some will seek lower prices than supermarkets
for fruit and veges. The position that has been set up to monitor >>competition will be able to see contract prices; produce will find an >>acceptable level that is lower than current but still delivers profit.
How? Consider this example - the day after tomatoes become
GST-exempt, a supermarket buys in loose tomatoes from several
suppliers all at different prices (now GST-exclusive) and sells them
all collectively at a single fixed retail price. It may be higher
than yesterday's GST-inclusive price - there is no way to verify if
the price today reflects the exemption from GST today, compared to >yesterday. Consider another example - a roadside stall sells their
own produce - GST-exempt today but not yesterday - some prices may be >higher because at the markets this morning where the competition
sources supply, prices were higher (at auction).
What can anyone do about such examples?It will be test of whether we do have effective competition, but the regulator will be able to look at all contracts, and compare terms.
One thing about fruit a and vegetables is that they have a shorter
shelf life than most other products - if a supermarket plays games and charges more than others they may find that being reported, and
customers going elsewhere - a total right off may not the result
desired by the retailer . . .
The effect of GST exemption is seen in some other markets such as
Australia - and our supermarkets have close links to some of the
Australian chains. It may take a few weeks for things to settle, but
less tax should have a result in lower prices overall.
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 21:17:47 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>It will be test of whether we do have effective competition, but the
wrote:
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 18:01:35 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>wrote:
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 12:18:28 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>wrote:I was responding to the assertion that businesses could not separate >>products sufficiently for this to be audited
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 10:52:08 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>>wrote:
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 10:31:08 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>>wrote:
On Wed, 20 Sep 2023 14:17:34 -0700 (PDT), JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com> >>>>>>wrote:
On Thursday, 21 September 2023 at 09:08:42 UTC+12, Crash wrote:
I have not seen any in depth analysis of how this can be audited - >>>>>>>> beyond getting the Grocery Commissioner to 'monitor' this.
https://tinyurl.com/mr3zankr
'Monitor' is not what is required - audits would normally do this, >>>>>>>> except something like this is impossible to audit. Every Supermarket >>>>>>>> (like every other GST-registered entity) will file and pay GST and for >>>>>>>> the most part this is a simple calculation based on total revenue - >>>>>>>> which can be audited. Introducing GST-exempt products means that >>>>>>>> total revenue can no longer be used - because some of it came from >>>>>>>> GST-exempt sales. So businesses selling some products that are >>>>>>>> GST-exempt will have to record GST-liable revenue separate to total >>>>>>>> revenue, and GST-liable revenue cannot be audited in any way because >>>>>>>> the sole record of this information is with the entity.
This is the reason that GST was designed the way it was, and why >>>>>>>> various government-commissioned reports have recommended against this >>>>>>>> option.
In this case, the Supermarkets can take the option that all food is >>>>>>>> priced and sold as it is currently. Compiling a GST return is a >>>>>>>> back-office function and not passing on the GST exemption on various >>>>>>>> exempt products will be used to offset increased costs and (probably) >>>>>>>> bottom-line profitability. The price per kg of fruit and veges is so >>>>>>>> volatile (on a daily basis) that even on the day the exemption comes >>>>>>>> into force, there is no way to tell if the GST exemption has been >>>>>>>> passed on by lowering retail prices.
There are potentially some businesses who only sell GST-exempt food >>>>>>>> (like Farmers Market vendors and specialist Fruit&vege retailers). >>>>>>>> These folks cannot compete with Supermarkets on volumes so are >>>>>>>> unlikely to be able to offer cheaper produce.
Labour have revealed themselves to be clueless. This policy cannot >>>>>>>> achieve what it sets out to achieve, but it can be used to win votes. >>>>>>>> That is its only value.
--
Crash McBash
Yep.
Labour ignored Ministry of Health advice that this initiative will not work:
https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/off-the-shelf/story/2018907819/ministers-were-advised-taking-gst-off-fruit-and-vege-would-not-lower-prices
But they went ahead anyway . This demonstrates that Labour are more interested in getting dumb people to vote for them than they are in helping said dumb people with their cost of living.
It works in Australia, who have developed good systems to cope with >>>>>>it. Our version will not be quite as complicated as in Australia.
Then why have Labour not explained how their proposed changes would >>>>>work citing the Australian experience? There is a good reason - and >>>>>that is exactly why at least 2 reports to the Government about tax >>>>>revisions have recommended against it.
Rich you have not addressed my core contention - that GST-exemption >>>>>will not result in reduced retail pricing because there is no way to >>>>>audit whether this has happened.
I am not aware of anyone ever suggesting that any part of taxation not >>>>be able to be audited. Where did you get that idea from? GST is >>>>relatively straightforward - what part of it cannot be tracked? All >>>>businesses must be able to track gst paid on their purchases, and GST >>>>they charge on sales - they will now have a return for some purchases >>>>and sales that do not have GST related to them. Most countries around >>>>the world have different rates of sales tax / VAT / GST etc for >>>>different goods. Why do you contend that our business owners are not >>>>capable of coping with similar requirements?
I have never made any comment in this thread on business owners >>>capability. Why do you try to insist I have said something that I have >>>not said?
I never made that assertion. Once again you are attributing something
to me that I did not say. This is becoming tedious.
- that is of course
nonsense; our business owners are just as capable as those overseas
where the system runs smoothly. I am glad that you were not pretending
that our business people are not capable . . .
The fact remains that there is no practical way of enforcing price >>>reduction on fruit&veges when the change is made from the current >>>GST-liable to GST-exempt. Increasing margins is not illegal and if >>>legislation on this changes this then we are entering a whole new
level of regulation.
Clearly you do not believe in efficient markets
You have no idea what I may or may not believe. This is not about
market efficiency but it is about trying to enforce retail price
reductions on food that moves to a GST-exempt status. You have not
addressed this. If I were so dishonest as you are I would thank you
for conceding this point - but I am not like you.
- they do get attacked
by every National Government
The debate is about changing fruit and veges to be GST-exempt.
National are not involved.
who try to avoid level playing fields and
prefer rigged systems like the one they set up for electricity. The
sale of fruit and vegetables is however not totally dominates by the >>supermarkets - if they try to increase margins to retain prices that
will be evident fairly quickly - just as many households go to The >>Warehouse for butter, some will seek lower prices than supermarkets
for fruit and veges. The position that has been set up to monitor >>competition will be able to see contract prices; produce will find an >>acceptable level that is lower than current but still delivers profit.
How? Consider this example - the day after tomatoes become
GST-exempt, a supermarket buys in loose tomatoes from several
suppliers all at different prices (now GST-exclusive) and sells them
all collectively at a single fixed retail price. It may be higher
than yesterday's GST-inclusive price - there is no way to verify if
the price today reflects the exemption from GST today, compared to
yesterday. Consider another example - a roadside stall sells their
own produce - GST-exempt today but not yesterday - some prices may be
higher because at the markets this morning where the competition
sources supply, prices were higher (at auction).
What can anyone do about such examples?
What can anyone do about such examples?It will be test of whether we do have effective competition, but the >regulator...
On Fri, 22 Sep 2023 14:13:29 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>
wrote:
What can anyone do about such examples?It will be test of whether we do have effective competition, but the >>regulator...
What regulator?
On Friday, 22 September 2023 at 14:21:19 UTC+12, Rich80105 wrote:There are much better ways of helping people in a cost of living crisis than pissing around with a couple of dollars a week reduction in fresh fruit and veg costs! Halve the excise on fuel, force the energy companies to drop costs or even take GST off
On Fri, 22 Sep 2023 11:14:22 +1200, Crash <nog...@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 21:17:47 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich...@hotmail.com> >wrote:
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 18:01:35 +1200, Crash <nog...@dontbother.invalid> >>wrote:
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 12:18:28 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich...@hotmail.com> >>>wrote:I was responding to the assertion that businesses could not separate >>products sufficiently for this to be audited
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 10:52:08 +1200, Crash <nog...@dontbother.invalid> >>>>wrote:
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 10:31:08 +1200, Rich80105 <Rich...@hotmail.com> >>>>>wrote:
On Wed, 20 Sep 2023 14:17:34 -0700 (PDT), JohnO <john...@gmail.com> >>>>>>wrote:Then why have Labour not explained how their proposed changes would >>>>>work citing the Australian experience? There is a good reason - and >>>>>that is exactly why at least 2 reports to the Government about tax >>>>>revisions have recommended against it.
On Thursday, 21 September 2023 at 09:08:42 UTC+12, Crash wrote: >>>>>>>> I have not seen any in depth analysis of how this can be audited -
beyond getting the Grocery Commissioner to 'monitor' this. >>>>>>>>
https://tinyurl.com/mr3zankr
'Monitor' is not what is required - audits would normally do this,
except something like this is impossible to audit. Every Supermarket
(like every other GST-registered entity) will file and pay GST and for
the most part this is a simple calculation based on total revenue -
which can be audited. Introducing GST-exempt products means that >>>>>>>> total revenue can no longer be used - because some of it came from
GST-exempt sales. So businesses selling some products that are >>>>>>>> GST-exempt will have to record GST-liable revenue separate to total
revenue, and GST-liable revenue cannot be audited in any way because
the sole record of this information is with the entity.
This is the reason that GST was designed the way it was, and why >>>>>>>> various government-commissioned reports have recommended against this
option.
In this case, the Supermarkets can take the option that all food is
priced and sold as it is currently. Compiling a GST return is a >>>>>>>> back-office function and not passing on the GST exemption on various
exempt products will be used to offset increased costs and (probably)
bottom-line profitability. The price per kg of fruit and veges is so
volatile (on a daily basis) that even on the day the exemption comes
into force, there is no way to tell if the GST exemption has been >>>>>>>> passed on by lowering retail prices.
There are potentially some businesses who only sell GST-exempt food
(like Farmers Market vendors and specialist Fruit&vege retailers).
These folks cannot compete with Supermarkets on volumes so are >>>>>>>> unlikely to be able to offer cheaper produce.
Labour have revealed themselves to be clueless. This policy cannot
achieve what it sets out to achieve, but it can be used to win votes.
That is its only value.
--
Crash McBash
Yep.
Labour ignored Ministry of Health advice that this initiative will not work:
https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/off-the-shelf/story/2018907819/ministers-were-advised-taking-gst-off-fruit-and-vege-would-not-lower-prices
But they went ahead anyway . This demonstrates that Labour are more interested in getting dumb people to vote for them than they are in helping said dumb people with their cost of living.
It works in Australia, who have developed good systems to cope with >>>>>>it. Our version will not be quite as complicated as in Australia. >>>>>
Rich you have not addressed my core contention - that GST-exemption >>>>>will not result in reduced retail pricing because there is no way to >>>>>audit whether this has happened.
I am not aware of anyone ever suggesting that any part of taxation not >>>>be able to be audited. Where did you get that idea from? GST is >>>>relatively straightforward - what part of it cannot be tracked? All >>>>businesses must be able to track gst paid on their purchases, and GST >>>>they charge on sales - they will now have a return for some purchases >>>>and sales that do not have GST related to them. Most countries around >>>>the world have different rates of sales tax / VAT / GST etc for >>>>different goods. Why do you contend that our business owners are not >>>>capable of coping with similar requirements?
I have never made any comment in this thread on business owners >>>capability. Why do you try to insist I have said something that I have >>>not said?
I never made that assertion. Once again you are attributing something
to me that I did not say. This is becoming tedious.
- that is of course
nonsense; our business owners are just as capable as those overseas >>where the system runs smoothly. I am glad that you were not pretending >>that our business people are not capable . . .
The fact remains that there is no practical way of enforcing price >>>reduction on fruit&veges when the change is made from the current >>>GST-liable to GST-exempt. Increasing margins is not illegal and if >>>legislation on this changes this then we are entering a whole new >>>level of regulation.
Clearly you do not believe in efficient markets
You have no idea what I may or may not believe. This is not about
market efficiency but it is about trying to enforce retail price >reductions on food that moves to a GST-exempt status. You have not >addressed this. If I were so dishonest as you are I would thank you
for conceding this point - but I am not like you.
- they do get attacked
by every National Government
The debate is about changing fruit and veges to be GST-exempt.
National are not involved.
who try to avoid level playing fields and
prefer rigged systems like the one they set up for electricity. The >>sale of fruit and vegetables is however not totally dominates by the >>supermarkets - if they try to increase margins to retain prices that >>will be evident fairly quickly - just as many households go to The >>Warehouse for butter, some will seek lower prices than supermarkets >>for fruit and veges. The position that has been set up to monitor >>competition will be able to see contract prices; produce will find an >>acceptable level that is lower than current but still delivers profit.
How? Consider this example - the day after tomatoes become
GST-exempt, a supermarket buys in loose tomatoes from several
suppliers all at different prices (now GST-exclusive) and sells them
all collectively at a single fixed retail price. It may be higher
than yesterday's GST-inclusive price - there is no way to verify if
the price today reflects the exemption from GST today, compared to >yesterday. Consider another example - a roadside stall sells their
own produce - GST-exempt today but not yesterday - some prices may be >higher because at the markets this morning where the competition
sources supply, prices were higher (at auction).
What can anyone do about such examples?It will be test of whether we do have effective competition, but the regulator will be able to look at all contracts, and compare terms.
One thing about fruit a and vegetables is that they have a shorter
shelf life than most other products - if a supermarket plays games and charges more than others they may find that being reported, and
customers going elsewhere - a total right off may not the result
desired by the retailer . . .
The effect of GST exemption is seen in some other markets such as Australia - and our supermarkets have close links to some of the Australian chains. It may take a few weeks for things to settle, but"Should"? Based on what? You making shit up again?
less tax should have a result in lower prices overall.
Whereas the Tax Working Group (as agreed by Grant Robertson who called the idea a "boondoggle"*) plus the Ministry of Health and all the mainstream economists all agree it's a dumb idea.
So who to believe? The above list of experts, or recidivist liar and Labour apologist Dickbot? Hmmm....
* Boondoggle: Noun. An unnecessary, wasteful, or fraudulent project.
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