• The Election Campaigns so far: Labour and National

    From Crash@21:1/5 to All on Sun Sep 10 21:17:17 2023
    Well we have got beyond the opening shots so time for initial
    reaction.

    Labour are trying to be re-elected for a second time: going for a
    third consecutive term in Government. Parties in this position have a
    history of 6 years in Government, giving them an unparalleled
    advantage on campaigning on achievement as the basis for projected
    further successes with another term. Incredibly this Labour
    government is NOT doing this. It is as if the Labour Governments
    under mostly Ardern's leadership have achieved nothing. Ardern
    herself is nowhere to be seen, instead they are relying on Helen Clark
    to appear in the campaign launch. This is nothing short of incredible
    and clearly illustrates that Hipkins has no confidence that the legacy
    of Ardern's leadership is worth using to get re-elected. Yes they
    have future plans, but what of a party that had a public 'policy
    bonfire' when Ardern resigned?

    National are also in a very weak position, with Luxon being their
    first-ever first-term MP as Leader. He will inevitably make the
    mistakes of the inexperienced. Their biggest attraction to me is a
    commitment to repeal Labours Water Reforms legislation but there is no
    mention of this either on their pledge card or their website (that I
    could find). Yes they have committed to this but they would rather
    focus on the repeal of inflation-induced tax hikes (as a one-off
    adjustment rather than indexation of tax bands). Seriously, the
    commitment to repeal Labours water reforms legislation is the single
    biggest element to get back the voters that deserted them in 2020 but
    Luxon does not recognise the importance of this.

    So lets see where we go now.


    --
    Crash McBash

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to Crash on Sun Sep 10 23:32:51 2023
    Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
    Well we have got beyond the opening shots so time for initial
    reaction.

    Labour are trying to be re-elected for a second time: going for a
    third consecutive term in Government. Parties in this position have a >history of 6 years in Government, giving them an unparalleled
    advantage on campaigning on achievement as the basis for projected
    further successes with another term. Incredibly this Labour
    government is NOT doing this. It is as if the Labour Governments
    under mostly Ardern's leadership have achieved nothing. Ardern
    herself is nowhere to be seen, instead they are relying on Helen Clark
    to appear in the campaign launch. This is nothing short of incredible
    and clearly illustrates that Hipkins has no confidence that the legacy
    of Ardern's leadership is worth using to get re-elected. Yes they
    have future plans, but what of a party that had a public 'policy
    bonfire' when Ardern resigned?

    National are also in a very weak position, with Luxon being their
    first-ever first-term MP as Leader. He will inevitably make the
    mistakes of the inexperienced. Their biggest attraction to me is a >commitment to repeal Labours Water Reforms legislation but there is no >mention of this either on their pledge card or their website (that I
    could find). Yes they have committed to this but they would rather
    focus on the repeal of inflation-induced tax hikes (as a one-off
    adjustment rather than indexation of tax bands). Seriously, the
    commitment to repeal Labours water reforms legislation is the single
    biggest element to get back the voters that deserted them in 2020 but
    Luxon does not recognise the importance of this.

    So lets see where we go now.


    --
    Crash McBash
    Interesting times. I cannot understand why National are not pushing the repeal of the water reforms (so-called). I believe the majority of this country do not support the water legislation imposed without a mandate by Labour.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gordon@21:1/5 to Tony on Sun Sep 10 23:56:11 2023
    On 2023-09-10, Tony <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
    Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
    Well we have got beyond the opening shots so time for initial
    reaction.

    Labour are trying to be re-elected for a second time: going for a
    third consecutive term in Government. Parties in this position have a >>history of 6 years in Government, giving them an unparalleled
    advantage on campaigning on achievement as the basis for projected
    further successes with another term. Incredibly this Labour
    government is NOT doing this. It is as if the Labour Governments
    under mostly Ardern's leadership have achieved nothing. Ardern
    herself is nowhere to be seen, instead they are relying on Helen Clark
    to appear in the campaign launch. This is nothing short of incredible
    and clearly illustrates that Hipkins has no confidence that the legacy
    of Ardern's leadership is worth using to get re-elected. Yes they
    have future plans, but what of a party that had a public 'policy
    bonfire' when Ardern resigned?

    National are also in a very weak position, with Luxon being their >>first-ever first-term MP as Leader. He will inevitably make the
    mistakes of the inexperienced. Their biggest attraction to me is a >>commitment to repeal Labours Water Reforms legislation but there is no >>mention of this either on their pledge card or their website (that I
    could find). Yes they have committed to this but they would rather
    focus on the repeal of inflation-induced tax hikes (as a one-off
    adjustment rather than indexation of tax bands). Seriously, the
    commitment to repeal Labours water reforms legislation is the single >>biggest element to get back the voters that deserted them in 2020 but
    Luxon does not recognise the importance of this.

    So lets see where we go now.


    --
    Crash McBash
    Interesting times. I cannot understand why National are not pushing the repeal
    of the water reforms (so-called). I believe the majority of this country do not
    support the water legislation imposed without a mandate by Labour.

    If one believes that the people/voters have made up their mind on a issue
    then it is wasted effort trying to covert the other side. It is also a distraction.

    The response to three waters has come and gone and Act, National, and NZF
    have said they will scarp it. NZ is over it for now until the Act remains or that people keep getting hit in the wallet, or that National and ACT fail to
    do the scrapping.

    National/ACT need to remind people of the risk of what co-governance is and what it will do.

    I suspect that the three waters will take some time for the debit to hit the fan, along with the realisation that no improvement has been made.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From James Christophers@21:1/5 to Crash on Sun Sep 10 17:41:53 2023
    On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 9:17:16 PM UTC+12, Crash wrote:
    Well we have got beyond the opening shots so time for initial
    reaction.

    Labour are trying to be re-elected for a second time: going for a
    third consecutive term in Government. Parties in this position have a history of 6 years in Government, giving them an unparalleled
    advantage on campaigning on achievement as the basis for projected
    further successes with another term. Incredibly this Labour
    government is NOT doing this. It is as if the Labour Governments
    under mostly Ardern's leadership have achieved nothing. Ardern
    herself is nowhere to be seen, instead they are relying on Helen Clark
    to appear in the campaign launch. This is nothing short of incredible
    and clearly illustrates that Hipkins has no confidence that the legacy
    of Ardern's leadership is worth using to get re-elected. Yes they
    have future plans, but what of a party that had a public 'policy
    bonfire' when Ardern resigned?

    National are also in a very weak position, with Luxon being their
    first-ever first-term MP as Leader. He will inevitably make the
    mistakes of the inexperienced.

    His beyond-embarrassing trainwreck appearance on Q&A yesterday (now streaming for your leisured savouring on TVNZ+) must have had National's caucus devouring their own livers. With his habitual motormouth blethering and desperate obfuscating, has any
    previous party leader, whether experienced or not, ever been so naive as to let show just how ill-prepared he is for the challenges of political life?

    Their biggest attraction to me is a
    commitment to repeal Labours Water Reforms legislation but there is no mention of this either on their pledge card or their website (that I
    could find). Yes they have committed to this but they would rather
    focus on the repeal of inflation-induced tax hikes (as a one-off
    adjustment rather than indexation of tax bands). Seriously, the
    commitment to repeal Labours water reforms legislation is the single
    biggest element to get back the voters that deserted them in 2020 but
    Luxon does not recognise the importance of this.



    So lets see where we go now.




    --
    Crash McBash

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Crash@21:1/5 to Gordon on Mon Sep 11 13:32:34 2023
    On 10 Sep 2023 23:56:11 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:

    On 2023-09-10, Tony <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
    Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
    Well we have got beyond the opening shots so time for initial
    reaction.

    Labour are trying to be re-elected for a second time: going for a
    third consecutive term in Government. Parties in this position have a >>>history of 6 years in Government, giving them an unparalleled
    advantage on campaigning on achievement as the basis for projected >>>further successes with another term. Incredibly this Labour
    government is NOT doing this. It is as if the Labour Governments
    under mostly Ardern's leadership have achieved nothing. Ardern
    herself is nowhere to be seen, instead they are relying on Helen Clark
    to appear in the campaign launch. This is nothing short of incredible >>>and clearly illustrates that Hipkins has no confidence that the legacy
    of Ardern's leadership is worth using to get re-elected. Yes they
    have future plans, but what of a party that had a public 'policy
    bonfire' when Ardern resigned?

    National are also in a very weak position, with Luxon being their >>>first-ever first-term MP as Leader. He will inevitably make the
    mistakes of the inexperienced. Their biggest attraction to me is a >>>commitment to repeal Labours Water Reforms legislation but there is no >>>mention of this either on their pledge card or their website (that I >>>could find). Yes they have committed to this but they would rather
    focus on the repeal of inflation-induced tax hikes (as a one-off >>>adjustment rather than indexation of tax bands). Seriously, the >>>commitment to repeal Labours water reforms legislation is the single >>>biggest element to get back the voters that deserted them in 2020 but >>>Luxon does not recognise the importance of this.

    So lets see where we go now.


    --
    Crash McBash
    Interesting times. I cannot understand why National are not pushing the repeal
    of the water reforms (so-called). I believe the majority of this country do not
    support the water legislation imposed without a mandate by Labour.

    If one believes that the people/voters have made up their mind on a issue >then it is wasted effort trying to covert the other side. It is also a >distraction.

    The response to three waters has come and gone and Act, National, and NZF >have said they will scarp it. NZ is over it for now until the Act remains or >that people keep getting hit in the wallet, or that National and ACT fail to >do the scrapping.

    National/ACT need to remind people of the risk of what co-governance is and >what it will do.

    I suspect that the three waters will take some time for the debit to hit the >fan, along with the realisation that no improvement has been made.

    I am one of those who will most likely party-vote National because of
    the promise to repeal the water Reforms Labour enacted. The
    legislation is in place and the Water Entities are being set up. The
    repeal is urgent because for every day wasted after the election the
    'sunk costs' (being money spent that can never be recovered)
    escalates. The sooner the repeal is enacted the greater the cost
    savings to the taxpayer.

    National's tax actions are the right thing to do but their reasoning
    is wrong. First of all these are not tax cuts but a return of some
    tax revenues that increased because bracket-creep. Their policy does
    not include a commitment ensure income tax brackets are periodically
    reviewed, therefore the underlying problem remains unfixed.


    --
    Crash McBash

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Willy Nilly@21:1/5 to Crash on Mon Sep 11 20:28:24 2023
    On Sun, 10 Sep 2023, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
    National are also in a very weak position, with Luxon being their
    first-ever first-term MP as Leader. He will inevitably make the
    mistakes of the inexperienced.

    He's doing it now, ruling out many ACT policies which are in fact
    popular with the people. ACT is going to pick up a lot of Nat voters
    who want those policies.

    Meanwhile Luxon is shedding votes to NZ First because of his failure
    to denounce the Three Waters type policies. Luxon is afraid of the
    media branding him "racist" for opposing Three Waters, so more for
    Winston. Who wants a PM who cowers before the media?

    Historically, the Nats biggest accomplishments are to bed in Labour
    policies. Luxon is half way there already. Let's see if ACT doesn't
    out-poll him.

    But as for ACT, they are still pro-vaxx as anyone. We unvaxxed will
    have to go with Winston, I guess. Sigh.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From JohnO@21:1/5 to James Christophers on Mon Sep 11 14:03:54 2023
    On Monday, 11 September 2023 at 12:41:55 UTC+12, James Christophers wrote:
    On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 9:17:16 PM UTC+12, Crash wrote:
    Well we have got beyond the opening shots so time for initial
    reaction.

    Labour are trying to be re-elected for a second time: going for a
    third consecutive term in Government. Parties in this position have a history of 6 years in Government, giving them an unparalleled
    advantage on campaigning on achievement as the basis for projected
    further successes with another term. Incredibly this Labour
    government is NOT doing this. It is as if the Labour Governments
    under mostly Ardern's leadership have achieved nothing. Ardern
    herself is nowhere to be seen, instead they are relying on Helen Clark
    to appear in the campaign launch. This is nothing short of incredible
    and clearly illustrates that Hipkins has no confidence that the legacy
    of Ardern's leadership is worth using to get re-elected. Yes they
    have future plans, but what of a party that had a public 'policy
    bonfire' when Ardern resigned?

    National are also in a very weak position, with Luxon being their first-ever first-term MP as Leader. He will inevitably make the
    mistakes of the inexperienced.
    His beyond-embarrassing trainwreck appearance on Q&A yesterday (now streaming for your leisured savouring on TVNZ+) must have had National's caucus devouring their own livers. With his habitual motormouth blethering and desperate obfuscating, has any
    previous party leader, whether experienced or not, ever been so naive as to let show just how ill-prepared he is for the challenges of political life?

    Which part are you referring to - that National is now polling over 40% compared to Labour's 27? Or that Luxon's preferred PM polling is up 6% to match a free-falling Hipkins?

    The good news is you seem to finally be in remission from your obsessive Key disorder. The bad news is that it appears to have simply transferred to Luxon. Tough times ahead for you, no doubt.


    Their biggest attraction to me is a
    commitment to repeal Labours Water Reforms legislation but there is no mention of this either on their pledge card or their website (that I
    could find). Yes they have committed to this but they would rather
    focus on the repeal of inflation-induced tax hikes (as a one-off adjustment rather than indexation of tax bands). Seriously, the
    commitment to repeal Labours water reforms legislation is the single biggest element to get back the voters that deserted them in 2020 but Luxon does not recognise the importance of this.



    So lets see where we go now.




    --
    Crash McBash

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Crash@21:1/5 to All on Tue Sep 12 10:45:33 2023
    On Mon, 11 Sep 2023 20:28:24 GMT, willynilly@qwert.com (Willy Nilly)
    wrote:

    On Sun, 10 Sep 2023, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
    National are also in a very weak position, with Luxon being their >>first-ever first-term MP as Leader. He will inevitably make the
    mistakes of the inexperienced.

    He's doing it now, ruling out many ACT policies which are in fact
    popular with the people. ACT is going to pick up a lot of Nat voters
    who want those policies.

    I have not seen any reporting of this but would welcome a cite. The
    reality is that negotiations with other parties on forming a
    government can only be done when the seat counts in the new Parliament
    are known. Based on current polls National will be the largest party,
    but 2017 taught us that 55 MPs is not enough to form a government.
    Luxon may well rule out NZF during the election campaign, but my bet
    is that this will only happen if NZF poll consistently over 5% and the Labour/Green numbers are very small.

    Meanwhile Luxon is shedding votes to NZ First because of his failure
    to denounce the Three Waters type policies. Luxon is afraid of the
    media branding him "racist" for opposing Three Waters, so more for
    Winston. Who wants a PM who cowers before the media?

    You are misinformed: National have denounced Labour's water reforms legislation and committed to repeal and replacement:

    https://www.national.org.nz/local_water_done_well

    Historically, the Nats biggest accomplishments are to bed in Labour
    policies. Luxon is half way there already.

    Labour have enacted some astonishing legislation in its current term.
    With a commitment to repeal the water reforms there is likely to be a
    number of other changes to what Labour have initiated - particularly
    in the field of Justice.

    Let's see if ACT doesn't
    out-poll him.

    Not likely, but may well get more support than they did in 2020.

    But as for ACT, they are still pro-vaxx as anyone. We unvaxxed will
    have to go with Winston, I guess. Sigh.

    COVID issues are so last-year now. Covid jabs are no longer mandated
    by the Government and we now simply live with it. Personally I will
    continue with any further Covid jabs in exactly the same way I do for
    the 'flu.

    Winston and NZF have been around long enough for voters to make an
    informed decision and again relegate this charlatan to history. While
    I agree with many of NZ First's stands on issues, there is no
    overcoming the factor that this is Winston's vanity party, and the
    vanity of Winston is hugely over-rated in value.


    --
    Crash McBash

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mutley@21:1/5 to Willy Nilly on Tue Sep 12 11:03:30 2023
    willynilly@qwert.com (Willy Nilly) wrote:

    On Sun, 10 Sep 2023, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
    National are also in a very weak position, with Luxon being their >>first-ever first-term MP as Leader. He will inevitably make the
    mistakes of the inexperienced.

    He's doing it now, ruling out many ACT policies which are in fact
    popular with the people. ACT is going to pick up a lot of Nat voters
    who want those policies.

    Meanwhile Luxon is shedding votes to NZ First because of his failure
    to denounce the Three Waters type policies. Luxon is afraid of the
    media branding him "racist" for opposing Three Waters, so more for
    Winston. Who wants a PM who cowers before the media?

    Historically, the Nats biggest accomplishments are to bed in Labour
    policies. Luxon is half way there already. Let's see if ACT doesn't >out-poll him.

    But as for ACT, they are still pro-vaxx as anyone. We unvaxxed will
    have to go with Winston, I guess. Sigh.

    You pretty much summed up my feeling over Luxon. I'm going with NZF
    now .

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Willy Nilly@21:1/5 to Crash on Mon Sep 11 23:37:06 2023
    On Tue, 12 Sep 2023, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
    On Mon, 11 Sep 2023, willynilly@qwert.com (Willy Nilly) wrote:
    He's doing it now, ruling out many ACT policies which are in fact
    popular with the people. ACT is going to pick up a lot of Nat voters
    who want those policies.

    I have not seen any reporting of this but would welcome a cite.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/election-2023/497636/act-s-david-seymour-floats-confidence-only-partnership-no-supply

    excerpt:
    "Luxon has been rejecting more and more of ACT's core policies. Last
    month he completely ruled out abolishing the Zero Carbon Act, and said
    he did not support ACT's proposed Treaty of Waitangi Principles
    legislation - stopping short of the hardline rule-out. This week,
    Luxon flatly rejected support for several more ACT policies, including
    partial sales of state-owned enterprises, abolishing fees-free
    first-year tertiary, ending first-home grants, scrapping all film
    subsidies, ending various research and development grants, and more.
    His answer to each was either "no" they would not do that - or it was
    "not our policy"."

    Personally I will continue with any further Covid jabs in exactly the
    same way I do for the 'flu.

    RIP unless you are having neither.

    ... again relegate this charlatan to history. While
    I agree with many of NZ First's stands on issues, there is no
    overcoming the factor that this is Winston's vanity party ...

    -- political suicide wish -- check.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Crash@21:1/5 to All on Tue Sep 12 11:52:10 2023
    On Mon, 11 Sep 2023 23:37:06 GMT, willynilly@qwert.com (Willy Nilly)
    wrote:

    On Tue, 12 Sep 2023, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
    On Mon, 11 Sep 2023, willynilly@qwert.com (Willy Nilly) wrote:
    He's doing it now, ruling out many ACT policies which are in fact
    popular with the people. ACT is going to pick up a lot of Nat voters
    who want those policies.

    I have not seen any reporting of this but would welcome a cite.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/election-2023/497636/act-s-david-seymour-floats-confidence-only-partnership-no-supply

    excerpt:
    "Luxon has been rejecting more and more of ACT's core policies. Last
    month he completely ruled out abolishing the Zero Carbon Act, and said
    he did not support ACT's proposed Treaty of Waitangi Principles
    legislation - stopping short of the hardline rule-out. This week,
    Luxon flatly rejected support for several more ACT policies, including >partial sales of state-owned enterprises, abolishing fees-free
    first-year tertiary, ending first-home grants, scrapping all film
    subsidies, ending various research and development grants, and more.
    His answer to each was either "no" they would not do that - or it was
    "not our policy"."

    Hmmm - very interesting.

    Personally I will continue with any further Covid jabs in exactly the
    same way I do for the 'flu.

    RIP unless you are having neither.

    No problems - I have had the flu jab annually for years and no
    problems at all with the Covid jab. The original justification for
    Covid jabs (outside of mandates) was personal protection but that era
    is long gone now - as are lockdowns, isolation et al. I have no
    problem with those who decline Covid19 vaccination.

    ... again relegate this charlatan to history. While
    I agree with many of NZ First's stands on issues, there is no
    overcoming the factor that this is Winston's vanity party ...

    -- political suicide wish -- check.


    --
    Crash McBash

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to All on Sat Sep 16 20:44:33 2023
    On Mon, 11 Sep 2023 13:32:34 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
    wrote:

    On 10 Sep 2023 23:56:11 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:

    On 2023-09-10, Tony <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
    Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
    Well we have got beyond the opening shots so time for initial
    reaction.

    Labour are trying to be re-elected for a second time: going for a
    third consecutive term in Government. Parties in this position have a >>>>history of 6 years in Government, giving them an unparalleled
    advantage on campaigning on achievement as the basis for projected >>>>further successes with another term. Incredibly this Labour
    government is NOT doing this. It is as if the Labour Governments
    under mostly Ardern's leadership have achieved nothing. Ardern
    herself is nowhere to be seen, instead they are relying on Helen Clark >>>>to appear in the campaign launch. This is nothing short of incredible >>>>and clearly illustrates that Hipkins has no confidence that the legacy >>>>of Ardern's leadership is worth using to get re-elected. Yes they
    have future plans, but what of a party that had a public 'policy >>>>bonfire' when Ardern resigned?

    National are also in a very weak position, with Luxon being their >>>>first-ever first-term MP as Leader. He will inevitably make the >>>>mistakes of the inexperienced. Their biggest attraction to me is a >>>>commitment to repeal Labours Water Reforms legislation but there is no >>>>mention of this either on their pledge card or their website (that I >>>>could find). Yes they have committed to this but they would rather >>>>focus on the repeal of inflation-induced tax hikes (as a one-off >>>>adjustment rather than indexation of tax bands). Seriously, the >>>>commitment to repeal Labours water reforms legislation is the single >>>>biggest element to get back the voters that deserted them in 2020 but >>>>Luxon does not recognise the importance of this.

    So lets see where we go now.


    --
    Crash McBash
    Interesting times. I cannot understand why National are not pushing the repeal
    of the water reforms (so-called). I believe the majority of this country do not
    support the water legislation imposed without a mandate by Labour.

    If one believes that the people/voters have made up their mind on a issue >>then it is wasted effort trying to covert the other side. It is also a >>distraction.

    The response to three waters has come and gone and Act, National, and NZF >>have said they will scarp it. NZ is over it for now until the Act remains or >>that people keep getting hit in the wallet, or that National and ACT fail to >>do the scrapping.

    National/ACT need to remind people of the risk of what co-governance is and >>what it will do.

    I suspect that the three waters will take some time for the debit to hit the >>fan, along with the realisation that no improvement has been made.

    I am one of those who will most likely party-vote National because of
    the promise to repeal the water Reforms Labour enacted. The
    legislation is in place and the Water Entities are being set up. The
    repeal is urgent because for every day wasted after the election the
    'sunk costs' (being money spent that can never be recovered)
    escalates. The sooner the repeal is enacted the greater the cost
    savings to the taxpayer.

    National's tax actions are the right thing to do but their reasoning
    is wrong. First of all these are not tax cuts but a return of some
    tax revenues that increased because bracket-creep. Their policy does
    not include a commitment ensure income tax brackets are periodically >reviewed, therefore the underlying problem remains unfixed.

    You have not identified just what you think the underlying problem is
    then. The reality is that New Zealand has low tax rates compared to
    most other countries, but we are
    currently sharing with other countries the effects of extreme weather
    events. The current government have promised to meet half the costs of
    dealing with dwellings that a re a total write off, whether in Nelson,
    Auckland or the East Coast, and are also meeting some costs relating
    to the destruction of underground services. How does National propose
    to deal with the costs (yet to be paid) for some of those events that
    have already happened, or which we now know are more likely in future?
    ACT would I suspect object to government getting involved in any way;
    claiming that the total cost should be met by private insurance or the
    owners, but they are keeping quiet about that . . .

    What National are doing however is using the "excuse" of indexation to
    skew tax reductions so that the wealthy gain even greater rewards proportionately that all those on lower incomes - together with their
    proposals to not regard sales of property as an investment decision
    after two years ownership they are cranking up the advantage to the
    wealthy as much as they can - and all that at the expense of those
    earning lower taxable income, and leaving he government with a lower
    tax take to fund work arising natural disasters such as a Kaikoura
    earthquake, and more recent extreme weather events.



    .

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gordon@21:1/5 to Rich80105@hotmail.com on Sat Sep 16 22:01:25 2023
    On 2023-09-16, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 11 Sep 2023 13:32:34 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
    wrote:

    On 10 Sep 2023 23:56:11 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:

    On 2023-09-10, Tony <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
    Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
    Well we have got beyond the opening shots so time for initial >>>>>reaction.

    Labour are trying to be re-elected for a second time: going for a >>>>>third consecutive term in Government. Parties in this position have a >>>>>history of 6 years in Government, giving them an unparalleled >>>>>advantage on campaigning on achievement as the basis for projected >>>>>further successes with another term. Incredibly this Labour >>>>>government is NOT doing this. It is as if the Labour Governments >>>>>under mostly Ardern's leadership have achieved nothing. Ardern >>>>>herself is nowhere to be seen, instead they are relying on Helen Clark >>>>>to appear in the campaign launch. This is nothing short of incredible >>>>>and clearly illustrates that Hipkins has no confidence that the legacy >>>>>of Ardern's leadership is worth using to get re-elected. Yes they >>>>>have future plans, but what of a party that had a public 'policy >>>>>bonfire' when Ardern resigned?

    National are also in a very weak position, with Luxon being their >>>>>first-ever first-term MP as Leader. He will inevitably make the >>>>>mistakes of the inexperienced. Their biggest attraction to me is a >>>>>commitment to repeal Labours Water Reforms legislation but there is no >>>>>mention of this either on their pledge card or their website (that I >>>>>could find). Yes they have committed to this but they would rather >>>>>focus on the repeal of inflation-induced tax hikes (as a one-off >>>>>adjustment rather than indexation of tax bands). Seriously, the >>>>>commitment to repeal Labours water reforms legislation is the single >>>>>biggest element to get back the voters that deserted them in 2020 but >>>>>Luxon does not recognise the importance of this.

    So lets see where we go now.


    --
    Crash McBash
    Interesting times. I cannot understand why National are not pushing the repeal
    of the water reforms (so-called). I believe the majority of this country do not
    support the water legislation imposed without a mandate by Labour.

    If one believes that the people/voters have made up their mind on a issue >>>then it is wasted effort trying to covert the other side. It is also a >>>distraction.

    The response to three waters has come and gone and Act, National, and NZF >>>have said they will scarp it. NZ is over it for now until the Act remains or >>>that people keep getting hit in the wallet, or that National and ACT fail to >>>do the scrapping.

    National/ACT need to remind people of the risk of what co-governance is and >>>what it will do.

    I suspect that the three waters will take some time for the debit to hit the >>>fan, along with the realisation that no improvement has been made.

    I am one of those who will most likely party-vote National because of
    the promise to repeal the water Reforms Labour enacted. The
    legislation is in place and the Water Entities are being set up. The >>repeal is urgent because for every day wasted after the election the
    'sunk costs' (being money spent that can never be recovered)
    escalates. The sooner the repeal is enacted the greater the cost
    savings to the taxpayer.

    National's tax actions are the right thing to do but their reasoning
    is wrong. First of all these are not tax cuts but a return of some
    tax revenues that increased because bracket-creep. Their policy does
    not include a commitment ensure income tax brackets are periodically >>reviewed, therefore the underlying problem remains unfixed.

    You have not identified just what you think the underlying problem is
    then. The reality is that New Zealand has low tax rates compared to
    most other countries, but we are
    currently sharing with other countries the effects of extreme weather
    events. The current government have promised to meet half the costs of dealing with dwellings that a re a total write off, whether in Nelson, Auckland or the East Coast, and are also meeting some costs relating
    to the destruction of underground services. How does National propose
    to deal with the costs (yet to be paid) for some of those events that
    have already happened, or which we now know are more likely in future?
    ACT would I suspect object to government getting involved in any way; claiming that the total cost should be met by private insurance or the owners, but they are keeping quiet about that . . .

    There seems to be an intial desire by the public to have a good look at the
    tax system. This probably is a good idea as things do get out of kilter over time. It will also allow people to have their say, which is a good idea in a democracy.

    The bracket creep should have been fixed in the distant past. The proposal
    to look at it every few years is a good one. Inflation creates this need, espically when you have a few large steps. There used to be many more steps
    on the scale up to 66% at the top at one stage. (No GST at the time)

    What National are doing however is using the "excuse" of indexation to
    skew tax reductions so that the wealthy gain even greater rewards proportionately that all those on lower incomes - together with their proposals to not regard sales of property as an investment decision
    after two years ownership they are cranking up the advantage to the
    wealthy as much as they can - and all that at the expense of those
    earning lower taxable income, and leaving he government with a lower
    tax take to fund work arising natural disasters such as a Kaikoura earthquake, and more recent extreme weather events.

    How the country should pay for the emergencys of Climate change, earthquakes, downpours can be included in the review. It is however a separate section to everyday tax.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to Gordon on Sun Sep 17 12:03:05 2023
    On 16 Sep 2023 22:01:25 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:

    On 2023-09-16, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 11 Sep 2023 13:32:34 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
    wrote:

    On 10 Sep 2023 23:56:11 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:

    On 2023-09-10, Tony <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
    Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
    Well we have got beyond the opening shots so time for initial >>>>>>reaction.

    Labour are trying to be re-elected for a second time: going for a >>>>>>third consecutive term in Government. Parties in this position have a >>>>>>history of 6 years in Government, giving them an unparalleled >>>>>>advantage on campaigning on achievement as the basis for projected >>>>>>further successes with another term. Incredibly this Labour >>>>>>government is NOT doing this. It is as if the Labour Governments >>>>>>under mostly Ardern's leadership have achieved nothing. Ardern >>>>>>herself is nowhere to be seen, instead they are relying on Helen Clark >>>>>>to appear in the campaign launch. This is nothing short of incredible >>>>>>and clearly illustrates that Hipkins has no confidence that the legacy >>>>>>of Ardern's leadership is worth using to get re-elected. Yes they >>>>>>have future plans, but what of a party that had a public 'policy >>>>>>bonfire' when Ardern resigned?

    National are also in a very weak position, with Luxon being their >>>>>>first-ever first-term MP as Leader. He will inevitably make the >>>>>>mistakes of the inexperienced. Their biggest attraction to me is a >>>>>>commitment to repeal Labours Water Reforms legislation but there is no >>>>>>mention of this either on their pledge card or their website (that I >>>>>>could find). Yes they have committed to this but they would rather >>>>>>focus on the repeal of inflation-induced tax hikes (as a one-off >>>>>>adjustment rather than indexation of tax bands). Seriously, the >>>>>>commitment to repeal Labours water reforms legislation is the single >>>>>>biggest element to get back the voters that deserted them in 2020 but >>>>>>Luxon does not recognise the importance of this.

    So lets see where we go now.


    --
    Crash McBash
    Interesting times. I cannot understand why National are not pushing the repeal
    of the water reforms (so-called). I believe the majority of this country do not
    support the water legislation imposed without a mandate by Labour.

    If one believes that the people/voters have made up their mind on a issue >>>>then it is wasted effort trying to covert the other side. It is also a >>>>distraction.

    The response to three waters has come and gone and Act, National, and NZF >>>>have said they will scarp it. NZ is over it for now until the Act remains or
    that people keep getting hit in the wallet, or that National and ACT fail to
    do the scrapping.

    National/ACT need to remind people of the risk of what co-governance is and >>>>what it will do.

    I suspect that the three waters will take some time for the debit to hit the
    fan, along with the realisation that no improvement has been made.

    I am one of those who will most likely party-vote National because of
    the promise to repeal the water Reforms Labour enacted. The
    legislation is in place and the Water Entities are being set up. The >>>repeal is urgent because for every day wasted after the election the >>>'sunk costs' (being money spent that can never be recovered)
    escalates. The sooner the repeal is enacted the greater the cost
    savings to the taxpayer.

    National's tax actions are the right thing to do but their reasoning
    is wrong. First of all these are not tax cuts but a return of some
    tax revenues that increased because bracket-creep. Their policy does
    not include a commitment ensure income tax brackets are periodically >>>reviewed, therefore the underlying problem remains unfixed.

    You have not identified just what you think the underlying problem is
    then. The reality is that New Zealand has low tax rates compared to
    most other countries, but we are
    currently sharing with other countries the effects of extreme weather
    events. The current government have promised to meet half the costs of
    dealing with dwellings that a re a total write off, whether in Nelson,
    Auckland or the East Coast, and are also meeting some costs relating
    to the destruction of underground services. How does National propose
    to deal with the costs (yet to be paid) for some of those events that
    have already happened, or which we now know are more likely in future?
    ACT would I suspect object to government getting involved in any way;
    claiming that the total cost should be met by private insurance or the
    owners, but they are keeping quiet about that . . .

    There seems to be an intial desire by the public to have a good look at the >tax system. This probably is a good idea as things do get out of kilter over >time. It will also allow people to have their say, which is a good idea in a >democracy.

    The bracket creep should have been fixed in the distant past. The proposal
    to look at it every few years is a good one. Inflation creates this need, >espically when you have a few large steps. There used to be many more steps >on the scale up to 66% at the top at one stage. (No GST at the time)

    What National are doing however is using the "excuse" of indexation to
    skew tax reductions so that the wealthy gain even greater rewards
    proportionately that all those on lower incomes - together with their
    proposals to not regard sales of property as an investment decision
    after two years ownership they are cranking up the advantage to the
    wealthy as much as they can - and all that at the expense of those
    earning lower taxable income, and leaving he government with a lower
    tax take to fund work arising natural disasters such as a Kaikoura
    earthquake, and more recent extreme weather events.

    How the country should pay for the emergencys of Climate change, earthquakes, >downpours can be included in the review. It is however a separate section to >everyday tax.

    I agree that it should be considered, but paying for necessary work is something that needs to be considered as part of a review of the
    whole tax system. It is interesting that while National have not
    attacked the 50/50 deals with local authorities, they have not
    committed to continue those subsidies.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to Rich80105@hotmail.com on Sun Sep 17 00:53:36 2023
    Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
    On 16 Sep 2023 22:01:25 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:

    On 2023-09-16, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 11 Sep 2023 13:32:34 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
    wrote:

    On 10 Sep 2023 23:56:11 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:

    On 2023-09-10, Tony <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
    Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
    Well we have got beyond the opening shots so time for initial >>>>>>>reaction.

    Labour are trying to be re-elected for a second time: going for a >>>>>>>third consecutive term in Government. Parties in this position have a >>>>>>>history of 6 years in Government, giving them an unparalleled >>>>>>>advantage on campaigning on achievement as the basis for projected >>>>>>>further successes with another term. Incredibly this Labour >>>>>>>government is NOT doing this. It is as if the Labour Governments >>>>>>>under mostly Ardern's leadership have achieved nothing. Ardern >>>>>>>herself is nowhere to be seen, instead they are relying on Helen Clark >>>>>>>to appear in the campaign launch. This is nothing short of incredible >>>>>>>and clearly illustrates that Hipkins has no confidence that the legacy >>>>>>>of Ardern's leadership is worth using to get re-elected. Yes they >>>>>>>have future plans, but what of a party that had a public 'policy >>>>>>>bonfire' when Ardern resigned?

    National are also in a very weak position, with Luxon being their >>>>>>>first-ever first-term MP as Leader. He will inevitably make the >>>>>>>mistakes of the inexperienced. Their biggest attraction to me is a >>>>>>>commitment to repeal Labours Water Reforms legislation but there is no >>>>>>>mention of this either on their pledge card or their website (that I >>>>>>>could find). Yes they have committed to this but they would rather >>>>>>>focus on the repeal of inflation-induced tax hikes (as a one-off >>>>>>>adjustment rather than indexation of tax bands). Seriously, the >>>>>>>commitment to repeal Labours water reforms legislation is the single >>>>>>>biggest element to get back the voters that deserted them in 2020 but >>>>>>>Luxon does not recognise the importance of this.

    So lets see where we go now.


    --
    Crash McBash
    Interesting times. I cannot understand why National are not pushing the >>>>>>repeal
    of the water reforms (so-called). I believe the majority of this country >>>>>>do not
    support the water legislation imposed without a mandate by Labour.

    If one believes that the people/voters have made up their mind on a issue >>>>>then it is wasted effort trying to covert the other side. It is also a >>>>>distraction.

    The response to three waters has come and gone and Act, National, and NZF >>>>>have said they will scarp it. NZ is over it for now until the Act remains >>>>>or
    that people keep getting hit in the wallet, or that National and ACT fail >>>>>to
    do the scrapping.

    National/ACT need to remind people of the risk of what co-governance is and
    what it will do.

    I suspect that the three waters will take some time for the debit to hit >>>>>the
    fan, along with the realisation that no improvement has been made.

    I am one of those who will most likely party-vote National because of >>>>the promise to repeal the water Reforms Labour enacted. The >>>>legislation is in place and the Water Entities are being set up. The >>>>repeal is urgent because for every day wasted after the election the >>>>'sunk costs' (being money spent that can never be recovered)
    escalates. The sooner the repeal is enacted the greater the cost >>>>savings to the taxpayer.

    National's tax actions are the right thing to do but their reasoning
    is wrong. First of all these are not tax cuts but a return of some
    tax revenues that increased because bracket-creep. Their policy does >>>>not include a commitment ensure income tax brackets are periodically >>>>reviewed, therefore the underlying problem remains unfixed.

    You have not identified just what you think the underlying problem is
    then. The reality is that New Zealand has low tax rates compared to
    most other countries, but we are
    currently sharing with other countries the effects of extreme weather
    events. The current government have promised to meet half the costs of
    dealing with dwellings that a re a total write off, whether in Nelson,
    Auckland or the East Coast, and are also meeting some costs relating
    to the destruction of underground services. How does National propose
    to deal with the costs (yet to be paid) for some of those events that
    have already happened, or which we now know are more likely in future?
    ACT would I suspect object to government getting involved in any way;
    claiming that the total cost should be met by private insurance or the
    owners, but they are keeping quiet about that . . .

    There seems to be an intial desire by the public to have a good look at the >>tax system. This probably is a good idea as things do get out of kilter over >>time. It will also allow people to have their say, which is a good idea in a >>democracy.

    The bracket creep should have been fixed in the distant past. The proposal >>to look at it every few years is a good one. Inflation creates this need, >>espically when you have a few large steps. There used to be many more steps >>on the scale up to 66% at the top at one stage. (No GST at the time)

    What National are doing however is using the "excuse" of indexation to
    skew tax reductions so that the wealthy gain even greater rewards
    proportionately that all those on lower incomes - together with their
    proposals to not regard sales of property as an investment decision
    after two years ownership they are cranking up the advantage to the
    wealthy as much as they can - and all that at the expense of those
    earning lower taxable income, and leaving he government with a lower
    tax take to fund work arising natural disasters such as a Kaikoura
    earthquake, and more recent extreme weather events.

    How the country should pay for the emergencys of Climate change, earthquakes, >>downpours can be included in the review. It is however a separate section to >>everyday tax.

    I agree that it should be considered, but paying for necessary work is >something that needs to be considered as part of a review of the
    whole tax system. It is interesting that while National have not
    attacked the 50/50 deals with local authorities, they have not
    committed to continue those subsidies.
    Just because they have not attcked it does not mean they agree with it - simple English logic.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)