XPost: nz.politics

https://www.democracyaction.org.nz/where_the_parties_stand_on_co_governance?utm_campaign=september_2023&utm_medium=email&utm_source=democracyaction
An important comparison of the parties and some co-governance information and opinions.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2023-09-09, Tony <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:

https://www.democracyaction.org.nz/where_the_parties_stand_on_co_governance?utm_campaign=september_2023&utm_medium=email&utm_source=democracyaction
An important comparison of the parties and some co-governance information and opinions.

Another good lot of information.

Interesting that the Irish have tried co-govenace and brought the system to
a stand still.

https://www.democracyaction.org.nz/warning_from_northern_ireland_co_government_does_not_work

“The lesson from Northern Ireland is, however well-intentioned, co-government rarely works in practice. It can bring government to a standstill, undermines democratic accountability, and often exacerbates the divisions it is designed to deal with.

If New Zealand wants to avoid similar paralysis, it should think twice before embarking on this path.”

While the Labour/Maori system does not have the First and deputy Ministers
but it does have the all important powerful veto engine which can stall the Governance machine.

Many years ago, the neighbour commented that one should learn from others mistakes, as you do not have the time to make them all yourself.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:

On 2023-09-09, Tony <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:

https://www.democracyaction.org.nz/where_the_parties_stand_on_co_governance?utm_campaign=september_2023&utm_medium=email&utm_source=democracyaction

An important comparison of the parties and some co-governance information >>and
opinions.

Another good lot of information.

Interesting that the Irish have tried co-govenace and brought the system to
a stand still.

https://www.democracyaction.org.nz/warning_from_northern_ireland_co_government_does_not_work

“The lesson from Northern Ireland is, however well-intentioned

I cannot comment on the Irish situation but co-governance under this government is not in any way well-intentioned. It is a deliberately planned attempt to remove our demacracy and replace it with a race based tyranny.

, co-government
rarely works in practice. It can bring government to a standstill, undermines >democratic accountability, and often exacerbates the divisions it is designed >to deal with.

If New Zealand wants to avoid similar paralysis, it should think twice before >embarking on this path.”

While the Labour/Maori system does not have the First and deputy Ministers >but it does have the all important powerful veto engine which can stall the >Governance machine.

Many years ago, the neighbour commented that one should learn from others >mistakes, as you do not have the time to make them all yourself.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sat, 9 Sep 2023 20:19:42 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:

https://www.democracyaction.org.nz/where_the_parties_stand_on_co_governance?utm_campaign=september_2023&utm_medium=email&utm_source=democracyaction
An important comparison of the parties and some co-governance information and >opinions.

Chris Finlayson will see this as the shallow pandering to the
misguided that National is currently indulging in - in effect anything
for a vote . Finlayson was of course a strong support of
co-governance, as was the Key/ English governments that he served in.
Finlayson knows that sometimes lies are necessary to get elected;
should National actually make it into government, the need for
co-governance will come through in some future Treaty Claims; which
National will be 'persuaded" by the Tribunal to see as a 'exception'
to their general policy, , and they will also need to override ACT.
Such is the cynical lying before an election by the parties of the far
right . . .

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sat, 16 Sep 2023 20:57:59 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:

Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, 9 Sep 2023 20:19:42 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:

https://www.democracyaction.org.nz/where_the_parties_stand_on_co_governance?utm_campaign=september_2023&utm_medium=email&utm_source=democracyaction

An important comparison of the parties and some co-governance information and
opinions.

Chris Finlayson will see this as the shallow pandering to the
misguided that National is currently indulging in - in effect anything
for a vote . Finlayson was of course a strong support of
co-governance, as was the Key/ English governments that he served in.

That is a lie and you have been shown that before, perhaps Goebbels was one of >your heroes - eh?

Finlayson knows that sometimes lies are necessary to get elected;
should National actually make it into government, the need for >>co-governance will come through in some future Treaty Claims; which >>National will be 'persuaded" by the Tribunal to see as a 'exception'
to their general policy, , and they will also need to override ACT.
Such is the cynical lying before an election by the parties of the far >>right . . .

There are no such parties in this country, that is another of your lies.
The treaty does not in any way support co-governance, another lie from you. >Welcome back, you and your serial lies.

Yes - lies remain lies no longer how often they are repeated.
Findlayson is no more relevant to National today than Helen Clark is
to Labour today.


--
Crash McBash

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, 9 Sep 2023 20:19:42 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:

https://www.democracyaction.org.nz/where_the_parties_stand_on_co_governance?utm_campaign=september_2023&utm_medium=email&utm_source=democracyaction
An important comparison of the parties and some co-governance information and >>opinions.

Chris Finlayson will see this as the shallow pandering to the
misguided that National is currently indulging in - in effect anything
for a vote . Finlayson was of course a strong support of
co-governance, as was the Key/ English governments that he served in.

That is a lie and you have been shown that before, perhaps Goebbels was one of your heroes - eh?

Finlayson knows that sometimes lies are necessary to get elected;
should National actually make it into government, the need for
co-governance will come through in some future Treaty Claims; which
National will be 'persuaded" by the Tribunal to see as a 'exception'
to their general policy, , and they will also need to override ACT.
Such is the cynical lying before an election by the parties of the far
right . . .

There are no such parties in this country, that is another of your lies.
The treaty does not in any way support co-governance, another lie from you. Welcome back, you and your serial lies.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2023-09-16, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:

On Sat, 16 Sep 2023 20:57:59 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:

Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, 9 Sep 2023 20:19:42 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:

https://www.democracyaction.org.nz/where_the_parties_stand_on_co_governance?utm_campaign=september_2023&utm_medium=email&utm_source=democracyaction

An important comparison of the parties and some co-governance information and
opinions.

Chris Finlayson will see this as the shallow pandering to the
misguided that National is currently indulging in - in effect anything >>>for a vote . Finlayson was of course a strong support of
co-governance, as was the Key/ English governments that he served in.

That is a lie and you have been shown that before, perhaps Goebbels was one of
your heroes - eh?

Finlayson knows that sometimes lies are necessary to get elected;
should National actually make it into government, the need for >>>co-governance will come through in some future Treaty Claims; which >>>National will be 'persuaded" by the Tribunal to see as a 'exception'
to their general policy, , and they will also need to override ACT.
Such is the cynical lying before an election by the parties of the far >>>right . . .

There are no such parties in this country, that is another of your lies. >>The treaty does not in any way support co-governance, another lie from you. >>Welcome back, you and your serial lies.

Yes - lies remain lies no longer how often they are repeated.
Findlayson is no more relevant to National today than Helen Clark is
to Labour today.

In a political context, I like to think of (repeated) lies as mis-information, or
dis-information.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sunday, September 17, 2023 at 9:09:31 AM UTC+12, Crash wrote:

On Sat, 16 Sep 2023 20:57:59 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizan...@orcon.net.nz> wrote:

Rich80105 <Rich...@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, 9 Sep 2023 20:19:42 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizan...@orcon.net.nz> wrote:

https://www.democracyaction.org.nz/where_the_parties_stand_on_co_governance?utm_campaign=september_2023&utm_medium=email&utm_source=democracyaction

An important comparison of the parties and some co-governance information and
opinions.

Chris Finlayson will see this as the shallow pandering to the
misguided that National is currently indulging in - in effect anything >>for a vote . Finlayson was of course a strong support of
co-governance, as was the Key/ English governments that he served in. >That is a lie and you have been shown that before, perhaps Goebbels was one of

your heroes - eh?

Finlayson knows that sometimes lies are necessary to get elected;
should National actually make it into government, the need for >>co-governance will come through in some future Treaty Claims; which >>National will be 'persuaded" by the Tribunal to see as a 'exception'
to their general policy, , and they will also need to override ACT.
Such is the cynical lying before an election by the parties of the far >>right . . .

There are no such parties in this country, that is another of your lies. >The treaty does not in any way support co-governance, another lie from you. >Welcome back, you and your serial lies.

Yes - lies remain lies no longer how often they are repeated.
Findlayson is no more relevant to National today than Helen Clark is
to Labour today.

Both Findlayson and Clark are, inescapably, historical and therefore inform the policies and behaviours of those of their kind who succeed them - i.e. I would say both are, de facto, relevant in the context in which they are now under discussion.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sat, 16 Sep 2023 15:23:25 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers <jmschristophers@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, September 17, 2023 at 9:09:31?AM UTC+12, Crash wrote:

On Sat, 16 Sep 2023 20:57:59 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizan...@orcon.net.nz> wrote:

Rich80105 <Rich...@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, 9 Sep 2023 20:19:42 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizan...@orcon.net.nz> wrote:

https://www.democracyaction.org.nz/where_the_parties_stand_on_co_governance?utm_campaign=september_2023&utm_medium=email&utm_source=democracyaction
An important comparison of the parties and some co-governance information and
opinions.

Chris Finlayson will see this as the shallow pandering to the
misguided that National is currently indulging in - in effect anything
for a vote . Finlayson was of course a strong support of
co-governance, as was the Key/ English governments that he served in.

That is a lie and you have been shown that before, perhaps Goebbels was one of
your heroes - eh?

Finlayson knows that sometimes lies are necessary to get elected;
should National actually make it into government, the need for
co-governance will come through in some future Treaty Claims; which
National will be 'persuaded" by the Tribunal to see as a 'exception'
to their general policy, , and they will also need to override ACT.
Such is the cynical lying before an election by the parties of the far
right . . .

There are no such parties in this country, that is another of your lies.
The treaty does not in any way support co-governance, another lie from you. >> >Welcome back, you and your serial lies.

Yes - lies remain lies no longer how often they are repeated.
Findlayson is no more relevant to National today than Helen Clark is
to Labour today.

Both Findlayson and Clark are, inescapably, historical and therefore inform the policies and behaviours of those of their kind who succeed them - i.e. I would say both are, de facto, relevant in the context in which they are now under discussion.

My post should probably compared Findlayson (at the time a senior
Cabinet Minister) with perhaps Dover Samuels (also a senior cabinet
minister). It is very clear that current governments can and do take
very different positions on an issue compared to previous governments
that each party led.

Findlayson did preside over ToW settlement negotiations that gave
co-management rights to small pockets of territory shared between a
regional council and local iwi. Co-governance as it is included in
the water reforms legislation was imposed without negotiation and was
not an announced Labour policy prior to the 2020 general election.
Unlike the co-management agreements Findlayson was a part of,
co-governance applies nationwide with new water entities - established
as a vehicle for co-governance and to own and operate existing water
assets in place of local bodies.

So the current National Party policy on water reforms is not related
to Treaty settlements negotiated by Findlayson that included
co-management.


--
Crash McBash

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 16 Sep 2023 22:06:33 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:

On 2023-09-16, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:

On Sat, 16 Sep 2023 20:57:59 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:

Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, 9 Sep 2023 20:19:42 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:

https://www.democracyaction.org.nz/where_the_parties_stand_on_co_governance?utm_campaign=september_2023&utm_medium=email&utm_source=democracyaction

An important comparison of the parties and some co-governance information and
opinions.

Chris Finlayson will see this as the shallow pandering to the
misguided that National is currently indulging in - in effect anything >>>>for a vote . Finlayson was of course a strong support of
co-governance, as was the Key/ English governments that he served in. >>>That is a lie and you have been shown that before, perhaps Goebbels was one of

your heroes - eh?

Finlayson knows that sometimes lies are necessary to get elected; >>>>should National actually make it into government, the need for >>>>co-governance will come through in some future Treaty Claims; which >>>>National will be 'persuaded" by the Tribunal to see as a 'exception'
to their general policy, , and they will also need to override ACT. >>>>Such is the cynical lying before an election by the parties of the far >>>>right . . .

There are no such parties in this country, that is another of your lies. >>>The treaty does not in any way support co-governance, another lie from you. >>>Welcome back, you and your serial lies.

Yes - lies remain lies no longer how often they are repeated.
Findlayson is no more relevant to National today than Helen Clark is
to Labour today.

In a political context, I like to think of (repeated) lies as mis-information, or
dis-information.

News articles featuring Finlayson supporting co-governance are not
difficult to find. I do not believe that he was lying.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:

On 16 Sep 2023 22:06:33 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:

On 2023-09-16, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:

On Sat, 16 Sep 2023 20:57:59 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:

Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, 9 Sep 2023 20:19:42 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:

https://www.democracyaction.org.nz/where_the_parties_stand_on_co_governance?utm_campaign=september_2023&utm_medium=email&utm_source=democracyaction

An important comparison of the parties and some co-governance information >>>>>>and
opinions.

Chris Finlayson will see this as the shallow pandering to the >>>>>misguided that National is currently indulging in - in effect anything >>>>>for a vote . Finlayson was of course a strong support of >>>>>co-governance, as was the Key/ English governments that he served in. >>>>That is a lie and you have been shown that before, perhaps Goebbels was one >>>>of

your heroes - eh?

Finlayson knows that sometimes lies are necessary to get elected; >>>>>should National actually make it into government, the need for >>>>>co-governance will come through in some future Treaty Claims; which >>>>>National will be 'persuaded" by the Tribunal to see as a 'exception' >>>>>to their general policy, , and they will also need to override ACT. >>>>>Such is the cynical lying before an election by the parties of the far >>>>>right . . .

There are no such parties in this country, that is another of your lies. >>>>The treaty does not in any way support co-governance, another lie from you. >>>>Welcome back, you and your serial lies.

Yes - lies remain lies no longer how often they are repeated.
Findlayson is no more relevant to National today than Helen Clark is
to Labour today.

In a political context, I like to think of (repeated) lies as >>mis-information, or
dis-information.

News articles featuring Finlayson supporting co-governance are not
difficult to find. I do not believe that he was lying.

What he supported is co-management. You persist with this lie. Yes, perhaps Goebbels did impress you at some timein your formative years.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)