"This is the real scandal, as there is little harm in getting somethingThe blind and deaf followers of the status quo (ie the followers of our incompetent government) will say it does not apply to us. Well, of course it does.
like this wrong in a vacuum. After all, COVID-19 vaccines certainly
saved many, many lives and reduced the severity of infection for many
more. But the fact vaccine mandates were pushed, even though those in
charge knew people could contract and spread the virus while vaccinated,
is indefensible. That they mislead the public on this makes it even worse."
The rest of the article just piles on the evidence.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/new-emails-show-covid-vaccine-mandates-were-based-on-a-lie
"This is the real scandal, as there is little harm in getting something
like this wrong in a vacuum. After all, COVID-19 vaccines certainly
saved many, many lives and reduced the severity of infection for many
more. But the fact vaccine mandates were pushed, even though those in
charge knew people could contract and spread the virus while vaccinated,
is indefensible. That they mislead the public on this makes it even worse."
The rest of the article just piles on the evidence.
On 24 Jun 2023 09:05:57 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:OK so you want to make a political statement - but ignore the data in the article and as usual make statements you cannot prove. 14,000 more deaths? - prove it!
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/new-emails-show-covid-vaccine-mandates-were-based-on-a-lie
"This is the real scandal, as there is little harm in getting something >>like this wrong in a vacuum. After all, COVID-19 vaccines certainly
saved many, many lives and reduced the severity of infection for many
more. But the fact vaccine mandates were pushed, even though those in >>charge knew people could contract and spread the virus while vaccinated,
is indefensible. That they mislead the public on this makes it even worse." >>
The rest of the article just piles on the evidence.
Surprising as it may be to see a conservative news outlet it eh USA so >critical of the Trump response to Covid, it does highlight how much
better our experience was. Vaccines were not available here as early
as they were in the USA, and from other experience of virus vaccines,
we knew that they would not stop all infections. In the USA, those
states with Democrat governments did not do as badly as those with
Republican state governments, but overall we would have had about
14,000 more Covid deaths than we actually experienced if we had
followed USA practices. The USA had the worst death rates of the
nations we can reliably measure; New Zealand had the least bad
experience. The big difference is that we listened to public health
advice - the Republicans refused to listen . . .
Rich80105 <Rich...@hotmail.com> wrote:Pity the government didn't listen to the advise quickly enough. Rich loves yto ignore the fact they took two bloody weeks and a phone call to Ardern's buddies in the UK before they started actually doing something rather than just talking about it!
On 24 Jun 2023 09:05:57 GMT, Gordon <Gor...@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/new-emails-show-covid-vaccine-mandates-were-based-on-a-lie
"This is the real scandal, as there is little harm in getting something >>like this wrong in a vacuum. After all, COVID-19 vaccines certainly >>saved many, many lives and reduced the severity of infection for many >>more. But the fact vaccine mandates were pushed, even though those in >>charge knew people could contract and spread the virus while vaccinated, >>is indefensible. That they mislead the public on this makes it even worse."
The rest of the article just piles on the evidence.
Surprising as it may be to see a conservative news outlet it eh USA so >critical of the Trump response to Covid, it does highlight how muchOK so you want to make a political statement - but ignore the data in the article and as usual make statements you cannot prove. 14,000 more deaths? - prove it!
better our experience was. Vaccines were not available here as early
as they were in the USA, and from other experience of virus vaccines,
we knew that they would not stop all infections. In the USA, those
states with Democrat governments did not do as badly as those with >Republican state governments, but overall we would have had about
14,000 more Covid deaths than we actually experienced if we had
followed USA practices. The USA had the worst death rates of the
nations we can reliably measure; New Zealand had the least bad
experience. The big difference is that we listened to public health
advice - the Republicans refused to listen . . .
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 24 Jun 2023 09:05:57 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:OK so you want to make a political statement - but ignore the data in the >article and as usual make statements you cannot prove. 14,000 more deaths? - >prove it!
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/new-emails-show-covid-vaccine-mandates-were-based-on-a-lie
"This is the real scandal, as there is little harm in getting something >>>like this wrong in a vacuum. After all, COVID-19 vaccines certainly
saved many, many lives and reduced the severity of infection for many >>>more. But the fact vaccine mandates were pushed, even though those in >>>charge knew people could contract and spread the virus while vaccinated, >>>is indefensible. That they mislead the public on this makes it even worse." >>>
The rest of the article just piles on the evidence.
Surprising as it may be to see a conservative news outlet it eh USA so >>critical of the Trump response to Covid, it does highlight how much
better our experience was. Vaccines were not available here as early
as they were in the USA, and from other experience of virus vaccines,
we knew that they would not stop all infections. In the USA, those
states with Democrat governments did not do as badly as those with >>Republican state governments, but overall we would have had about
14,000 more Covid deaths than we actually experienced if we had
followed USA practices. The USA had the worst death rates of the
nations we can reliably measure; New Zealand had the least bad
experience. The big difference is that we listened to public health
advice - the Republicans refused to listen . . .
On Sun, 25 Jun 2023 01:18:23 -0000 (UTC), TonyHow quickly you ignore the truth, I have posted evidence that refutes that graph - and yet yours is apparently correct and mine is not - proof required not rhetoric please.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 24 Jun 2023 09:05:57 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:OK so you want to make a political statement - but ignore the data in the >>article and as usual make statements you cannot prove. 14,000 more deaths? - >>prove it!
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/new-emails-show-covid-vaccine-mandates-were-based-on-a-lie
"This is the real scandal, as there is little harm in getting something >>>>like this wrong in a vacuum. After all, COVID-19 vaccines certainly >>>>saved many, many lives and reduced the severity of infection for many >>>>more. But the fact vaccine mandates were pushed, even though those in >>>>charge knew people could contract and spread the virus while vaccinated, >>>>is indefensible. That they mislead the public on this makes it even worse." >>>>
The rest of the article just piles on the evidence.
Surprising as it may be to see a conservative news outlet it eh USA so >>>critical of the Trump response to Covid, it does highlight how much >>>better our experience was. Vaccines were not available here as early
as they were in the USA, and from other experience of virus vaccines,
we knew that they would not stop all infections. In the USA, those
states with Democrat governments did not do as badly as those with >>>Republican state governments, but overall we would have had about
14,000 more Covid deaths than we actually experienced if we had
followed USA practices. The USA had the worst death rates of the
nations we can reliably measure; New Zealand had the least bad >>>experience. The big difference is that we listened to public health >>>advice - the Republicans refused to listen . . .
How quickly you forget, Tony. I have posted the cumulative excess
deaths graphs at least three times . . .
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 25 Jun 2023 01:18:23 -0000 (UTC), TonyHow quickly you ignore the truth, I have posted evidence that refutes that >graph - and yet yours is apparently correct and mine is not - proof required >not rhetoric please.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 24 Jun 2023 09:05:57 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:OK so you want to make a political statement - but ignore the data in the >>>article and as usual make statements you cannot prove. 14,000 more deaths? - >>>prove it!
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/new-emails-show-covid-vaccine-mandates-were-based-on-a-lie
"This is the real scandal, as there is little harm in getting something >>>>>like this wrong in a vacuum. After all, COVID-19 vaccines certainly >>>>>saved many, many lives and reduced the severity of infection for many >>>>>more. But the fact vaccine mandates were pushed, even though those in >>>>>charge knew people could contract and spread the virus while vaccinated, >>>>>is indefensible. That they mislead the public on this makes it even worse."
The rest of the article just piles on the evidence.
Surprising as it may be to see a conservative news outlet it eh USA so >>>>critical of the Trump response to Covid, it does highlight how much >>>>better our experience was. Vaccines were not available here as early
as they were in the USA, and from other experience of virus vaccines, >>>>we knew that they would not stop all infections. In the USA, those >>>>states with Democrat governments did not do as badly as those with >>>>Republican state governments, but overall we would have had about >>>>14,000 more Covid deaths than we actually experienced if we had >>>>followed USA practices. The USA had the worst death rates of the >>>>nations we can reliably measure; New Zealand had the least bad >>>>experience. The big difference is that we listened to public health >>>>advice - the Republicans refused to listen . . .
How quickly you forget, Tony. I have posted the cumulative excess
deaths graphs at least three times . . .
On Sun, 25 Jun 2023 21:11:12 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 25 Jun 2023 01:18:23 -0000 (UTC), TonyHow quickly you ignore the truth, I have posted evidence that refutes that >>graph - and yet yours is apparently correct and mine is not - proof required >>not rhetoric please.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 24 Jun 2023 09:05:57 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:OK so you want to make a political statement - but ignore the data in the >>>>article and as usual make statements you cannot prove. 14,000 more deaths? >>>>-
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/new-emails-show-covid-vaccine-mandates-were-based-on-a-lie
"This is the real scandal, as there is little harm in getting something >>>>>>like this wrong in a vacuum. After all, COVID-19 vaccines certainly >>>>>>saved many, many lives and reduced the severity of infection for many >>>>>>more. But the fact vaccine mandates were pushed, even though those in >>>>>>charge knew people could contract and spread the virus while vaccinated, >>>>>>is indefensible. That they mislead the public on this makes it even >>>>>>worse."
The rest of the article just piles on the evidence.
Surprising as it may be to see a conservative news outlet it eh USA so >>>>>critical of the Trump response to Covid, it does highlight how much >>>>>better our experience was. Vaccines were not available here as early >>>>>as they were in the USA, and from other experience of virus vaccines, >>>>>we knew that they would not stop all infections. In the USA, those >>>>>states with Democrat governments did not do as badly as those with >>>>>Republican state governments, but overall we would have had about >>>>>14,000 more Covid deaths than we actually experienced if we had >>>>>followed USA practices. The USA had the worst death rates of the >>>>>nations we can reliably measure; New Zealand had the least bad >>>>>experience. The big difference is that we listened to public health >>>>>advice - the Republicans refused to listen . . .
prove it!
How quickly you forget, Tony. I have posted the cumulative excess
deaths graphs at least three times . . .
A cumulative calculation over more than two years is vastly different
to weekly statistics over recent months. The numbers you posted showed >considerable variation from week to week, and showed considerable
fluctuation regarding a comparison with expected mortality. That is
at least in part because deaths do vary during the year - we lose more
people in winter! If you compare the weekly numbers that you showed
with those of Australia there is little difference - they had a worse
overall Covid death record than us, but not by much; that is to be
expected since both countries were going from summer into winter. But
as far as Covid is concerned, New Zealand removed most restrictions in >September 2022, and our rate of deaths from Covid has as expected
increased since that time - see: >https://www.health.govt.nz/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-data-and-statistics/covid-19-current-cases
From that page it is arguable that we would have been better off
retaining more Covid restrictions for a few months longer. It is clear >however that Covid continues to use considerable health resources, in >particular ICU beds and the associated staffing
But also seeMost of that is wrong, because you don't understand how to read the table.
https://elifesciences.org/articles/69336
which I have posted previously, and
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-economist?uniformYAxis=0&country=USA~AUS~GBR~NZL
from which you can see that both Australia and New Zealand have had >deteriorating experience since removing most controls that limited
Covid exposure and deaths - but we are a long way from the experience
of the US and UK over the whole period of Covid. Try clicking on the
button for "Align axis scales" above the charts in that last link, and
you will see the better experience of Australia, and slightly better
again New Zealand. compared with those two countries.
Underlying mortality rates in New Zealand are however going up - due
to the Baby Boomers going through old age. That is an effect that we
will see for some years, but it is relatively small compared to the
potential impact in the period where Covid deaths were much higher in
other countries than in New Zealand.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:The figures you found were measuring quite a different aspect of
On Sun, 25 Jun 2023 21:11:12 -0000 (UTC), TonyMost of that is wrong, because you don't understand how to read the table. >The rest is political rhetoric and pointless.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 25 Jun 2023 01:18:23 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:How quickly you ignore the truth, I have posted evidence that refutes that >>>graph - and yet yours is apparently correct and mine is not - proof required >>>not rhetoric please.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 24 Jun 2023 09:05:57 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:OK so you want to make a political statement - but ignore the data in the >>>>>article and as usual make statements you cannot prove. 14,000 more deaths? >>>>>-
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/new-emails-show-covid-vaccine-mandates-were-based-on-a-lie
"This is the real scandal, as there is little harm in getting something >>>>>>>like this wrong in a vacuum. After all, COVID-19 vaccines certainly >>>>>>>saved many, many lives and reduced the severity of infection for many >>>>>>>more. But the fact vaccine mandates were pushed, even though those in >>>>>>>charge knew people could contract and spread the virus while vaccinated, >>>>>>>is indefensible. That they mislead the public on this makes it even >>>>>>>worse."
The rest of the article just piles on the evidence.
Surprising as it may be to see a conservative news outlet it eh USA so >>>>>>critical of the Trump response to Covid, it does highlight how much >>>>>>better our experience was. Vaccines were not available here as early >>>>>>as they were in the USA, and from other experience of virus vaccines, >>>>>>we knew that they would not stop all infections. In the USA, those >>>>>>states with Democrat governments did not do as badly as those with >>>>>>Republican state governments, but overall we would have had about >>>>>>14,000 more Covid deaths than we actually experienced if we had >>>>>>followed USA practices. The USA had the worst death rates of the >>>>>>nations we can reliably measure; New Zealand had the least bad >>>>>>experience. The big difference is that we listened to public health >>>>>>advice - the Republicans refused to listen . . .
prove it!
How quickly you forget, Tony. I have posted the cumulative excess >>>>deaths graphs at least three times . . .
A cumulative calculation over more than two years is vastly different
to weekly statistics over recent months. The numbers you posted showed >>considerable variation from week to week, and showed considerable >>fluctuation regarding a comparison with expected mortality. That is
at least in part because deaths do vary during the year - we lose more >>people in winter! If you compare the weekly numbers that you showed
with those of Australia there is little difference - they had a worse >>overall Covid death record than us, but not by much; that is to be
expected since both countries were going from summer into winter. But
as far as Covid is concerned, New Zealand removed most restrictions in >>September 2022, and our rate of deaths from Covid has as expected
increased since that time - see: >>https://www.health.govt.nz/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-data-and-statistics/covid-19-current-cases
From that page it is arguable that we would have been better off
retaining more Covid restrictions for a few months longer. It is clear >>however that Covid continues to use considerable health resources, in >>particular ICU beds and the associated staffing
But also see
https://elifesciences.org/articles/69336
which I have posted previously, and
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-economist?uniformYAxis=0&country=USA~AUS~GBR~NZL
from which you can see that both Australia and New Zealand have had >>deteriorating experience since removing most controls that limited
Covid exposure and deaths - but we are a long way from the experience
of the US and UK over the whole period of Covid. Try clicking on the >>button for "Align axis scales" above the charts in that last link, and
you will see the better experience of Australia, and slightly better
again New Zealand. compared with those two countries.
Underlying mortality rates in New Zealand are however going up - due
to the Baby Boomers going through old age. That is an effect that we
will see for some years, but it is relatively small compared to the >>potential impact in the period where Covid deaths were much higher in
other countries than in New Zealand.
Bottom line is that there are two sets of conflicting information. That is and >always was my point. Simple really.
On Mon, 26 Jun 2023 00:31:11 -0000 (UTC), TonyDon't be so stupid - you have referred to it so obviously you have read it.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 25 Jun 2023 21:11:12 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 25 Jun 2023 01:18:23 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:How quickly you ignore the truth, I have posted evidence that refutes that >>>>graph - and yet yours is apparently correct and mine is not - proof >>>>required
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 24 Jun 2023 09:05:57 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:OK so you want to make a political statement - but ignore the data in the >>>>>>article and as usual make statements you cannot prove. 14,000 more >>>>>>deaths?
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/new-emails-show-covid-vaccine-mandates-were-based-on-a-lie
"This is the real scandal, as there is little harm in getting something >>>>>>>>like this wrong in a vacuum. After all, COVID-19 vaccines certainly >>>>>>>>saved many, many lives and reduced the severity of infection for many >>>>>>>>more. But the fact vaccine mandates were pushed, even though those in >>>>>>>>charge knew people could contract and spread the virus while >>>>>>>>vaccinated,
is indefensible. That they mislead the public on this makes it even >>>>>>>>worse."
The rest of the article just piles on the evidence.
Surprising as it may be to see a conservative news outlet it eh USA so >>>>>>>critical of the Trump response to Covid, it does highlight how much >>>>>>>better our experience was. Vaccines were not available here as early >>>>>>>as they were in the USA, and from other experience of virus vaccines, >>>>>>>we knew that they would not stop all infections. In the USA, those >>>>>>>states with Democrat governments did not do as badly as those with >>>>>>>Republican state governments, but overall we would have had about >>>>>>>14,000 more Covid deaths than we actually experienced if we had >>>>>>>followed USA practices. The USA had the worst death rates of the >>>>>>>nations we can reliably measure; New Zealand had the least bad >>>>>>>experience. The big difference is that we listened to public health >>>>>>>advice - the Republicans refused to listen . . .
-
prove it!
How quickly you forget, Tony. I have posted the cumulative excess >>>>>deaths graphs at least three times . . .
not rhetoric please.
The figures you found were measuring quite a different aspect ofMost of that is wrong, because you don't understand how to read the table. >>The rest is political rhetoric and pointless.
A cumulative calculation over more than two years is vastly different
to weekly statistics over recent months. The numbers you posted showed >>>considerable variation from week to week, and showed considerable >>>fluctuation regarding a comparison with expected mortality. That is
at least in part because deaths do vary during the year - we lose more >>>people in winter! If you compare the weekly numbers that you showed
with those of Australia there is little difference - they had a worse >>>overall Covid death record than us, but not by much; that is to be >>>expected since both countries were going from summer into winter. But
as far as Covid is concerned, New Zealand removed most restrictions in >>>September 2022, and our rate of deaths from Covid has as expected >>>increased since that time - see: >>>https://www.health.govt.nz/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-data-and-statistics/covid-19-current-cases
From that page it is arguable that we would have been better off >>>retaining more Covid restrictions for a few months longer. It is clear >>>however that Covid continues to use considerable health resources, in >>>particular ICU beds and the associated staffing
But also see
https://elifesciences.org/articles/69336
which I have posted previously, and
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-economist?uniformYAxis=0&country=USA~AUS~GBR~NZL
from which you can see that both Australia and New Zealand have had >>>deteriorating experience since removing most controls that limited
Covid exposure and deaths - but we are a long way from the experience
of the US and UK over the whole period of Covid. Try clicking on the >>>button for "Align axis scales" above the charts in that last link, and >>>you will see the better experience of Australia, and slightly better >>>again New Zealand. compared with those two countries.
Underlying mortality rates in New Zealand are however going up - due
to the Baby Boomers going through old age. That is an effect that we
will see for some years, but it is relatively small compared to the >>>potential impact in the period where Covid deaths were much higher in >>>other countries than in New Zealand.
Bottom line is that there are two sets of conflicting information. That is >>and
always was my point. Simple really.
mortality experience; I note you are too embarrassed to post the link
again, as it does not support your contentions . . .
The reality is that New Zealand did extremely well with the policies
adopted by our government, but we are now experiencing more covid
deaths as restrictions have eased. There is an advertisement on
television at present encouraging vaccination however; but we all know
there are some very stupid people that will not get vaccinated, and
the cost of hospital care and deaths will stay higher than it need be
while the fake news peddlers peddle their distortions and lies.
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