Excess deaths are still happening
https://hatchardreport.com/fact-check-david-seymour-says-we-have-no-excess-deaths-is-he-right/
The UK MP Andrew Bridgen is also on the case, as are other people.Excess deaths up
22% in April 2023. Many other countries also have excess deaths.
It is very disappointing that David Seymour can not get this right. It does >seem we have a uni party in Government. No choice, no opposition.
On 11 May 2023 01:59:12 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:You however understand nothing of ethics or science.
Excess deaths are still happening
https://hatchardreport.com/fact-check-david-seymour-says-we-have-no-excess-deaths-is-he-right/
The UK MP Andrew Bridgen is also on the case, as are other people.Excess >>deaths up
22% in April 2023. Many other countries also have excess deaths.
It is very disappointing that David Seymour can not get this right. It does >>seem we have a uni party in Government. No choice, no opposition.
Seymour is correct. It is not clear what the charts included by
Hatchard show - he did not give urls. The Definition of excess
deaths is however critical - I suspect Hatchard does not understand >population statistics and what was being measured. This is however an
area where performace by New Zealand was better than most other
countries; it is a measure that summarises the excellent decisions
made by our government right through the height of the Covid pandemic.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 11 May 2023 01:59:12 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:You however understand nothing of ethics or science.
Excess deaths are still happening
https://hatchardreport.com/fact-check-david-seymour-says-we-have-no-excess-deaths-is-he-right/
The UK MP Andrew Bridgen is also on the case, as are other people.Excess >>>deaths up
22% in April 2023. Many other countries also have excess deaths.
It is very disappointing that David Seymour can not get this right. It does >>>seem we have a uni party in Government. No choice, no opposition.
Seymour is correct. It is not clear what the charts included by
Hatchard show - he did not give urls. The Definition of excess
deaths is however critical - I suspect Hatchard does not understand >>population statistics and what was being measured. This is however an
area where performace by New Zealand was better than most other
countries; it is a measure that summarises the excellent decisions
made by our government right through the height of the Covid pandemic.
Do just keep silent when others explain reality to you.
On Thu, 11 May 2023 05:30:18 -0000 (UTC), TonyNot interested. I was commenting on your lack of ethics not somebody elses.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 11 May 2023 01:59:12 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:You however understand nothing of ethics or science.
Excess deaths are still happening
https://hatchardreport.com/fact-check-david-seymour-says-we-have-no-excess-deaths-is-he-right/
The UK MP Andrew Bridgen is also on the case, as are other people.Excess >>>>deaths up
22% in April 2023. Many other countries also have excess deaths.
It is very disappointing that David Seymour can not get this right. It does >>>>seem we have a uni party in Government. No choice, no opposition.
Seymour is correct. It is not clear what the charts included by
Hatchard show - he did not give urls. The Definition of excess
deaths is however critical - I suspect Hatchard does not understand >>>population statistics and what was being measured. This is however an >>>area where performace by New Zealand was better than most other >>>countries; it is a measure that summarises the excellent decisions
made by our government right through the height of the Covid pandemic.
Do just keep silent when others explain reality to you.
Some of the graphical results appear to be no longer available, but
see here:
https://elifesciences.org/articles/69336
Perhaps you could explain any ethical issues you see in this article .
. .
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:deaths is clear, supported by the major countries who have the ability
On Thu, 11 May 2023 05:30:18 -0000 (UTC), TonyNot interested. I was commenting on your lack of ethics not somebody elses. There is no lack of ethics in the post I made; the data for excess
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 11 May 2023 01:59:12 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:Do just keep silent when others explain reality to you.
Excess deaths are still happening
https://hatchardreport.com/fact-check-david-seymour-says-we-have-no-excess-deaths-is-he-right/
The UK MP Andrew Bridgen is also on the case, as are other people.Excess >>>>>deaths up
22% in April 2023. Many other countries also have excess deaths.
It is very disappointing that David Seymour can not get this right. It does
seem we have a uni party in Government. No choice, no opposition.
Seymour is correct. It is not clear what the charts included by >>>>Hatchard show - he did not give urls. The Definition of excess
deaths is however critical - I suspect Hatchard does not understand >>>>population statistics and what was being measured. This is however an >>>>area where performace by New Zealand was better than most other >>>>countries; it is a measure that summarises the excellent decisions
made by our government right through the height of the Covid pandemic. >>>You however understand nothing of ethics or science.
Some of the graphical results appear to be no longer available, but
see here:
https://elifesciences.org/articles/69336
Perhaps you could explain any ethical issues you see in this article .
. .
On Thu, 11 May 2023 05:30:18 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 11 May 2023 01:59:12 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:You however understand nothing of ethics or science.
Excess deaths are still happening
https://hatchardreport.com/fact-check-david-seymour-says-we-have-no-excess-deaths-is-he-right/
The UK MP Andrew Bridgen is also on the case, as are other people.Excess >>>> deaths up
22% in April 2023. Many other countries also have excess deaths.
It is very disappointing that David Seymour can not get this right. It does
seem we have a uni party in Government. No choice, no opposition.
Seymour is correct. It is not clear what the charts included by
Hatchard show - he did not give urls. The Definition of excess
deaths is however critical - I suspect Hatchard does not understand
population statistics and what was being measured. This is however an
area where performace by New Zealand was better than most other
countries; it is a measure that summarises the excellent decisions
made by our government right through the height of the Covid pandemic.
Do just keep silent when others explain reality to you.
Some of the graphical results appear to be no longer available, but
see here:
https://elifesciences.org/articles/69336
Perhaps you could explain any ethical issues you see in this article .
. .
On Thu, 11 May 2023 20:41:50 -0000 (UTC), TonyThere are excess deaths in many countries, perhaps most. Your refusal to believe that this country publishes inaccurate statistics is highy questionable and unethical. By what act of God or similar have we escaped this?
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:deaths is clear, supported by the major countries who have the ability
On Thu, 11 May 2023 05:30:18 -0000 (UTC), TonyNot interested. I was commenting on your lack of ethics not somebody elses. >There is no lack of ethics in the post I made; the data for excess
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 11 May 2023 01:59:12 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:Do just keep silent when others explain reality to you.
Excess deaths are still happening
https://hatchardreport.com/fact-check-david-seymour-says-we-have-no-excess-deaths-is-he-right/
The UK MP Andrew Bridgen is also on the case, as are other people.Excess >>>>>>deaths up
22% in April 2023. Many other countries also have excess deaths.
It is very disappointing that David Seymour can not get this right. It >>>>>>does
seem we have a uni party in Government. No choice, no opposition.
Seymour is correct. It is not clear what the charts included by >>>>>Hatchard show - he did not give urls. The Definition of excess >>>>>deaths is however critical - I suspect Hatchard does not understand >>>>>population statistics and what was being measured. This is however an >>>>>area where performace by New Zealand was better than most other >>>>>countries; it is a measure that summarises the excellent decisions >>>>>made by our government right through the height of the Covid pandemic. >>>>You however understand nothing of ethics or science.
Some of the graphical results appear to be no longer available, but
see here:
https://elifesciences.org/articles/69336
Perhaps you could explain any ethical issues you see in this article .
. .
to calculate those numbers, and hav been consistently reported for a
long time without any controversy.
On 11/05/23 20:57, Rich80105 wrote:
On Thu, 11 May 2023 05:30:18 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 11 May 2023 01:59:12 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:You however understand nothing of ethics or science.
Excess deaths are still happening
https://hatchardreport.com/fact-check-david-seymour-says-we-have-no-excess-deaths-is-he-right/
The UK MP Andrew Bridgen is also on the case, as are other people.Excess >>>>> deaths up
22% in April 2023. Many other countries also have excess deaths.
It is very disappointing that David Seymour can not get this right. It does
seem we have a uni party in Government. No choice, no opposition.
Seymour is correct. It is not clear what the charts included by
Hatchard show - he did not give urls. The Definition of excess
deaths is however critical - I suspect Hatchard does not understand
population statistics and what was being measured. This is however an
area where performace by New Zealand was better than most other
countries; it is a measure that summarises the excellent decisions
made by our government right through the height of the Covid pandemic.
Do just keep silent when others explain reality to you.
Some of the graphical results appear to be no longer available, but
see here:
https://elifesciences.org/articles/69336
Perhaps you could explain any ethical issues you see in this article .
. .
Report is two years old. Dismissed by me. Propaganda.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 11 May 2023 20:41:50 -0000 (UTC), TonyThere are excess deaths in many countries, perhaps most. Your refusal to >believe that this country publishes inaccurate statistics is highy questionable
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:deaths is clear, supported by the major countries who have the ability
On Thu, 11 May 2023 05:30:18 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Not interested. I was commenting on your lack of ethics not somebody elses. >>There is no lack of ethics in the post I made; the data for excess
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 11 May 2023 01:59:12 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:Do just keep silent when others explain reality to you.
Excess deaths are still happening
https://hatchardreport.com/fact-check-david-seymour-says-we-have-no-excess-deaths-is-he-right/
The UK MP Andrew Bridgen is also on the case, as are other people.Excess >>>>>>>deaths up
22% in April 2023. Many other countries also have excess deaths.
It is very disappointing that David Seymour can not get this right. It >>>>>>>does
seem we have a uni party in Government. No choice, no opposition.
Seymour is correct. It is not clear what the charts included by >>>>>>Hatchard show - he did not give urls. The Definition of excess >>>>>>deaths is however critical - I suspect Hatchard does not understand >>>>>>population statistics and what was being measured. This is however an >>>>>>area where performace by New Zealand was better than most other >>>>>>countries; it is a measure that summarises the excellent decisions >>>>>>made by our government right through the height of the Covid pandemic. >>>>>You however understand nothing of ethics or science.
Some of the graphical results appear to be no longer available, but
see here:
https://elifesciences.org/articles/69336
Perhaps you could explain any ethical issues you see in this article . >>>>. .
to calculate those numbers, and hav been consistently reported for a
long time without any controversy.
and unethical. By what act of God or similar have we escaped this?
On Fri, 12 May 2023 01:03:17 -0000 (UTC), TonyNo, I don't believe that. Excess deaths are supposedly due to the vaccines as much as anything else - therefore that we apparently escaped is questionable.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 11 May 2023 20:41:50 -0000 (UTC), TonyThere are excess deaths in many countries, perhaps most. Your refusal to >>believe that this country publishes inaccurate statistics is highy >>questionable
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:deaths is clear, supported by the major countries who have the ability
On Thu, 11 May 2023 05:30:18 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Not interested. I was commenting on your lack of ethics not somebody elses. >>>There is no lack of ethics in the post I made; the data for excess
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 11 May 2023 01:59:12 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:Do just keep silent when others explain reality to you.
Excess deaths are still happeningSeymour is correct. It is not clear what the charts included by >>>>>>>Hatchard show - he did not give urls. The Definition of excess >>>>>>>deaths is however critical - I suspect Hatchard does not understand >>>>>>>population statistics and what was being measured. This is however an >>>>>>>area where performace by New Zealand was better than most other >>>>>>>countries; it is a measure that summarises the excellent decisions >>>>>>>made by our government right through the height of the Covid pandemic. >>>>>>You however understand nothing of ethics or science.
https://hatchardreport.com/fact-check-david-seymour-says-we-have-no-excess-deaths-is-he-right/
The UK MP Andrew Bridgen is also on the case, as are other >>>>>>>>people.Excess
deaths up
22% in April 2023. Many other countries also have excess deaths. >>>>>>>>
It is very disappointing that David Seymour can not get this right. It >>>>>>>>does
seem we have a uni party in Government. No choice, no opposition. >>>>>>>
Some of the graphical results appear to be no longer available, but >>>>>see here:
https://elifesciences.org/articles/69336
Perhaps you could explain any ethical issues you see in this article . >>>>>. .
to calculate those numbers, and hav been consistently reported for a
long time without any controversy.
and unethical. By what act of God or similar have we escaped this?
Yes, in most coutries there were. For New Zealand, precautions taken
relating to Covid reduced deaths from road accidents as well as many
winter ailments, and we had lower deaths than we would normally have
expected - Australia was nearly as good, but the relatively poor
performance of the Liberals were enough that now the ALP is in
government feberally and in all States except Tasmania.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2023 01:03:17 -0000 (UTC), TonyNo, I don't believe that. Excess deaths are supposedly due to the vaccines as >much as anything else - therefore that we apparently escaped is questionable.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 11 May 2023 20:41:50 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:There are excess deaths in many countries, perhaps most. Your refusal to >>>believe that this country publishes inaccurate statistics is highy >>>questionable
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:There is no lack of ethics in the post I made; the data for excess >>>>deaths is clear, supported by the major countries who have the ability >>>>to calculate those numbers, and hav been consistently reported for a >>>>long time without any controversy.
On Thu, 11 May 2023 05:30:18 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Not interested. I was commenting on your lack of ethics not somebody elses.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 11 May 2023 01:59:12 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>Do just keep silent when others explain reality to you.
Excess deaths are still happeningSeymour is correct. It is not clear what the charts included by >>>>>>>>Hatchard show - he did not give urls. The Definition of excess >>>>>>>>deaths is however critical - I suspect Hatchard does not understand >>>>>>>>population statistics and what was being measured. This is however an >>>>>>>>area where performace by New Zealand was better than most other >>>>>>>>countries; it is a measure that summarises the excellent decisions >>>>>>>>made by our government right through the height of the Covid pandemic. >>>>>>>You however understand nothing of ethics or science.
https://hatchardreport.com/fact-check-david-seymour-says-we-have-no-excess-deaths-is-he-right/
The UK MP Andrew Bridgen is also on the case, as are other >>>>>>>>>people.Excess
deaths up
22% in April 2023. Many other countries also have excess deaths. >>>>>>>>>
It is very disappointing that David Seymour can not get this right. It >>>>>>>>>does
seem we have a uni party in Government. No choice, no opposition. >>>>>>>>
Some of the graphical results appear to be no longer available, but >>>>>>see here:
https://elifesciences.org/articles/69336
Perhaps you could explain any ethical issues you see in this article . >>>>>>. .
and unethical. By what act of God or similar have we escaped this?
Yes, in most coutries there were. For New Zealand, precautions taken >>relating to Covid reduced deaths from road accidents as well as many
winter ailments, and we had lower deaths than we would normally have >>expected - Australia was nearly as good, but the relatively poor >>performance of the Liberals were enough that now the ALP is in
government feberally and in all States except Tasmania.
On Fri, 12 May 2023 05:00:26 -0000 (UTC), TonyWhich adds nothing to the debate.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2023 01:03:17 -0000 (UTC), TonyNo, I don't believe that. Excess deaths are supposedly due to the vaccines as >>much as anything else - therefore that we apparently escaped is questionable.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 11 May 2023 20:41:50 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:There are excess deaths in many countries, perhaps most. Your refusal to >>>>believe that this country publishes inaccurate statistics is highy >>>>questionable
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:There is no lack of ethics in the post I made; the data for excess >>>>>deaths is clear, supported by the major countries who have the ability >>>>>to calculate those numbers, and hav been consistently reported for a >>>>>long time without any controversy.
On Thu, 11 May 2023 05:30:18 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Not interested. I was commenting on your lack of ethics not somebody >>>>>>elses.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 11 May 2023 01:59:12 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>Do just keep silent when others explain reality to you.
Excess deaths are still happeningSeymour is correct. It is not clear what the charts included by >>>>>>>>>Hatchard show - he did not give urls. The Definition of excess >>>>>>>>>deaths is however critical - I suspect Hatchard does not understand >>>>>>>>>population statistics and what was being measured. This is however an >>>>>>>>>area where performace by New Zealand was better than most other >>>>>>>>>countries; it is a measure that summarises the excellent decisions >>>>>>>>>made by our government right through the height of the Covid pandemic. >>>>>>>>You however understand nothing of ethics or science.
https://hatchardreport.com/fact-check-david-seymour-says-we-have-no-excess-deaths-is-he-right/
The UK MP Andrew Bridgen is also on the case, as are other >>>>>>>>>>people.Excess
deaths up
22% in April 2023. Many other countries also have excess deaths. >>>>>>>>>>
It is very disappointing that David Seymour can not get this right. >>>>>>>>>>It
does
seem we have a uni party in Government. No choice, no opposition. >>>>>>>>>
Some of the graphical results appear to be no longer available, but >>>>>>>see here:
https://elifesciences.org/articles/69336
Perhaps you could explain any ethical issues you see in this article . >>>>>>>. .
and unethical. By what act of God or similar have we escaped this?
Yes, in most coutries there were. For New Zealand, precautions taken >>>relating to Covid reduced deaths from road accidents as well as many >>>winter ailments, and we had lower deaths than we would normally have >>>expected - Australia was nearly as good, but the relatively poor >>>performance of the Liberals were enough that now the ALP is in
government feberally and in all States except Tasmania.
That depends on what you mean by escaped. Certainly we had deaths from
covid, but overall deaths reduced from those expected based on
previous years experience - but our death rates started to rise again
as controls tapered off and as some idiots decided that vaccines
should not be taken. Note that the scales on the charts fror different >countries are not the same.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:With such a bald and unsupported opinions from you Tony, it appears
On Fri, 12 May 2023 05:00:26 -0000 (UTC), TonyWhich adds nothing to the debate.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2023 01:03:17 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:No, I don't believe that. Excess deaths are supposedly due to the vaccines as
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 11 May 2023 20:41:50 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:There are excess deaths in many countries, perhaps most. Your refusal to >>>>>believe that this country publishes inaccurate statistics is highy >>>>>questionable
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:There is no lack of ethics in the post I made; the data for excess >>>>>>deaths is clear, supported by the major countries who have the ability >>>>>>to calculate those numbers, and hav been consistently reported for a >>>>>>long time without any controversy.
On Thu, 11 May 2023 05:30:18 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Not interested. I was commenting on your lack of ethics not somebody >>>>>>>elses.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 11 May 2023 01:59:12 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>You however understand nothing of ethics or science.
Excess deaths are still happeningSeymour is correct. It is not clear what the charts included by >>>>>>>>>>Hatchard show - he did not give urls. The Definition of excess >>>>>>>>>>deaths is however critical - I suspect Hatchard does not understand >>>>>>>>>>population statistics and what was being measured. This is however an >>>>>>>>>>area where performace by New Zealand was better than most other >>>>>>>>>>countries; it is a measure that summarises the excellent decisions >>>>>>>>>>made by our government right through the height of the Covid pandemic.
https://hatchardreport.com/fact-check-david-seymour-says-we-have-no-excess-deaths-is-he-right/
The UK MP Andrew Bridgen is also on the case, as are other >>>>>>>>>>>people.Excess
deaths up
22% in April 2023. Many other countries also have excess deaths. >>>>>>>>>>>
It is very disappointing that David Seymour can not get this right. >>>>>>>>>>>It
does
seem we have a uni party in Government. No choice, no opposition. >>>>>>>>>>
Do just keep silent when others explain reality to you.
Some of the graphical results appear to be no longer available, but >>>>>>>>see here:
https://elifesciences.org/articles/69336
Perhaps you could explain any ethical issues you see in this article . >>>>>>>>. .
and unethical. By what act of God or similar have we escaped this?
Yes, in most coutries there were. For New Zealand, precautions taken >>>>relating to Covid reduced deaths from road accidents as well as many >>>>winter ailments, and we had lower deaths than we would normally have >>>>expected - Australia was nearly as good, but the relatively poor >>>>performance of the Liberals were enough that now the ALP is in >>>>government feberally and in all States except Tasmania.
much as anything else - therefore that we apparently escaped is questionable.
That depends on what you mean by escaped. Certainly we had deaths from >>covid, but overall deaths reduced from those expected based on
previous years experience - but our death rates started to rise again
as controls tapered off and as some idiots decided that vaccines
should not be taken. Note that the scales on the charts fror different >>countries are not the same.
On Fri, 12 May 2023 21:28:20 -0000 (UTC), TonyYou really are obtuse.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:With such a bald and unsupported opinions from you Tony, it appears
On Fri, 12 May 2023 05:00:26 -0000 (UTC), TonyWhich adds nothing to the debate.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2023 01:03:17 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:No, I don't believe that. Excess deaths are supposedly due to the vaccines >>>>as
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 11 May 2023 20:41:50 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:There are excess deaths in many countries, perhaps most. Your refusal to >>>>>>believe that this country publishes inaccurate statistics is highy >>>>>>questionable
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:There is no lack of ethics in the post I made; the data for excess >>>>>>>deaths is clear, supported by the major countries who have the ability >>>>>>>to calculate those numbers, and hav been consistently reported for a >>>>>>>long time without any controversy.
On Thu, 11 May 2023 05:30:18 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Not interested. I was commenting on your lack of ethics not somebody >>>>>>>>elses.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 11 May 2023 01:59:12 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>You however understand nothing of ethics or science.
Excess deaths are still happeningSeymour is correct. It is not clear what the charts included by >>>>>>>>>>>Hatchard show - he did not give urls. The Definition of excess >>>>>>>>>>>deaths is however critical - I suspect Hatchard does not understand >>>>>>>>>>>population statistics and what was being measured. This is however an
https://hatchardreport.com/fact-check-david-seymour-says-we-have-no-excess-deaths-is-he-right/
The UK MP Andrew Bridgen is also on the case, as are other >>>>>>>>>>>>people.Excess
deaths up
22% in April 2023. Many other countries also have excess deaths. >>>>>>>>>>>>
It is very disappointing that David Seymour can not get this right. >>>>>>>>>>>>It
does
seem we have a uni party in Government. No choice, no opposition. >>>>>>>>>>>
area where performace by New Zealand was better than most other >>>>>>>>>>>countries; it is a measure that summarises the excellent decisions >>>>>>>>>>>made by our government right through the height of the Covid >>>>>>>>>>>pandemic.
Do just keep silent when others explain reality to you.
Some of the graphical results appear to be no longer available, but >>>>>>>>>see here:
https://elifesciences.org/articles/69336
Perhaps you could explain any ethical issues you see in this article . >>>>>>>>>. .
and unethical. By what act of God or similar have we escaped this?
Yes, in most coutries there were. For New Zealand, precautions taken >>>>>relating to Covid reduced deaths from road accidents as well as many >>>>>winter ailments, and we had lower deaths than we would normally have >>>>>expected - Australia was nearly as good, but the relatively poor >>>>>performance of the Liberals were enough that now the ALP is in >>>>>government feberally and in all States except Tasmania.
much as anything else - therefore that we apparently escaped is >>>>questionable.
That depends on what you mean by escaped. Certainly we had deaths from >>>covid, but overall deaths reduced from those expected based on
previous years experience - but our death rates started to rise again
as controls tapered off and as some idiots decided that vaccines
should not be taken. Note that the scales on the charts fror different >>>countries are not the same.
that you have no wish to ever enter into any debate.
From: >https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-economist?uniformYAxis=0&country=USA~AUS~GBR~NZL
we see that the USA has experienced over 1.3 million deaths above the >previously normal level of mortality during the Covid period, the UK
about 220,000, Australia 29,000 and New Zealand, having experienced
-2,500 around the end of 2021, has reduced restrictions and has now >experieced additional deaths of around 260 for the whole Covid period
to now. Those figures represent losses of the following approximate
numbers of deaths per 100,000 of population: USA 402, UK 332,
Australia 112, New Zealand 5
see >https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-per-100k-economist >(hover over countries to get the estimate for that country - Vanuatu
has done well . . .)
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2023 21:28:20 -0000 (UTC), TonyYou really are obtuse.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:With such a bald and unsupported opinions from you Tony, it appears
On Fri, 12 May 2023 05:00:26 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Which adds nothing to the debate.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2023 01:03:17 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:No, I don't believe that. Excess deaths are supposedly due to the vaccines >>>>>as
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Yes, in most coutries there were. For New Zealand, precautions taken >>>>>>relating to Covid reduced deaths from road accidents as well as many >>>>>>winter ailments, and we had lower deaths than we would normally have >>>>>>expected - Australia was nearly as good, but the relatively poor >>>>>>performance of the Liberals were enough that now the ALP is in >>>>>>government feberally and in all States except Tasmania.
On Thu, 11 May 2023 20:41:50 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:There are excess deaths in many countries, perhaps most. Your refusal to >>>>>>>believe that this country publishes inaccurate statistics is highy >>>>>>>questionable
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:There is no lack of ethics in the post I made; the data for excess >>>>>>>>deaths is clear, supported by the major countries who have the ability >>>>>>>>to calculate those numbers, and hav been consistently reported for a >>>>>>>>long time without any controversy.
On Thu, 11 May 2023 05:30:18 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Not interested. I was commenting on your lack of ethics not somebody >>>>>>>>>elses.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 11 May 2023 01:59:12 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>You however understand nothing of ethics or science.
Excess deaths are still happeningSeymour is correct. It is not clear what the charts included by >>>>>>>>>>>>Hatchard show - he did not give urls. The Definition of excess >>>>>>>>>>>>deaths is however critical - I suspect Hatchard does not understand >>>>>>>>>>>>population statistics and what was being measured. This is however an
https://hatchardreport.com/fact-check-david-seymour-says-we-have-no-excess-deaths-is-he-right/
The UK MP Andrew Bridgen is also on the case, as are other >>>>>>>>>>>>>people.Excess
deaths up
22% in April 2023. Many other countries also have excess deaths. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
It is very disappointing that David Seymour can not get this right.
It
does
seem we have a uni party in Government. No choice, no opposition. >>>>>>>>>>>>
area where performace by New Zealand was better than most other >>>>>>>>>>>>countries; it is a measure that summarises the excellent decisions >>>>>>>>>>>>made by our government right through the height of the Covid >>>>>>>>>>>>pandemic.
Do just keep silent when others explain reality to you.
Some of the graphical results appear to be no longer available, but >>>>>>>>>>see here:
https://elifesciences.org/articles/69336
Perhaps you could explain any ethical issues you see in this article .
. .
and unethical. By what act of God or similar have we escaped this? >>>>>>
much as anything else - therefore that we apparently escaped is >>>>>questionable.
That depends on what you mean by escaped. Certainly we had deaths from >>>>covid, but overall deaths reduced from those expected based on
previous years experience - but our death rates started to rise again >>>>as controls tapered off and as some idiots decided that vaccines
should not be taken. Note that the scales on the charts fror different >>>>countries are not the same.
that you have no wish to ever enter into any debate.
From: >>https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-economist?uniformYAxis=0&country=USA~AUS~GBR~NZL
we see that the USA has experienced over 1.3 million deaths above the >>previously normal level of mortality during the Covid period, the UK
about 220,000, Australia 29,000 and New Zealand, having experienced
-2,500 around the end of 2021, has reduced restrictions and has now >>experieced additional deaths of around 260 for the whole Covid period
to now. Those figures represent losses of the following approximate
numbers of deaths per 100,000 of population: USA 402, UK 332,
Australia 112, New Zealand 5
see >>https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-per-100k-economist
(hover over countries to get the estimate for that country - Vanuatu
has done well . . .)
i have already added to the debate that it is unlikely that we have no excess >deaths based on the fact that few other countries have made that claim. As I >suggested, maybe we and others are not reporting accurately.
On Sat, 13 May 2023 00:28:23 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2023 21:28:20 -0000 (UTC), TonyYou really are obtuse.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:With such a bald and unsupported opinions from you Tony, it appears
On Fri, 12 May 2023 05:00:26 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Which adds nothing to the debate.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2023 01:03:17 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:No, I don't believe that. Excess deaths are supposedly due to the >>>>>>vaccines
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Yes, in most coutries there were. For New Zealand, precautions taken >>>>>>>relating to Covid reduced deaths from road accidents as well as many >>>>>>>winter ailments, and we had lower deaths than we would normally have >>>>>>>expected - Australia was nearly as good, but the relatively poor >>>>>>>performance of the Liberals were enough that now the ALP is in >>>>>>>government feberally and in all States except Tasmania.
On Thu, 11 May 2023 20:41:50 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:There are excess deaths in many countries, perhaps most. Your refusal >>>>>>>>to
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:There is no lack of ethics in the post I made; the data for excess >>>>>>>>>deaths is clear, supported by the major countries who have the ability >>>>>>>>>to calculate those numbers, and hav been consistently reported for a >>>>>>>>>long time without any controversy.
On Thu, 11 May 2023 05:30:18 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Not interested. I was commenting on your lack of ethics not somebody >>>>>>>>>>elses.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 11 May 2023 01:59:12 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>You however understand nothing of ethics or science.
Excess deaths are still happeningSeymour is correct. It is not clear what the charts included by >>>>>>>>>>>>>Hatchard show - he did not give urls. The Definition of excess >>>>>>>>>>>>>deaths is however critical - I suspect Hatchard does not understand
https://hatchardreport.com/fact-check-david-seymour-says-we-have-no-excess-deaths-is-he-right/
The UK MP Andrew Bridgen is also on the case, as are other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>people.Excess
deaths up
22% in April 2023. Many other countries also have excess deaths. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It is very disappointing that David Seymour can not get this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>right.
It
does
seem we have a uni party in Government. No choice, no opposition. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
population statistics and what was being measured. This is however >>>>>>>>>>>>>an
area where performace by New Zealand was better than most other >>>>>>>>>>>>>countries; it is a measure that summarises the excellent decisions >>>>>>>>>>>>>made by our government right through the height of the Covid >>>>>>>>>>>>>pandemic.
Do just keep silent when others explain reality to you.
Some of the graphical results appear to be no longer available, but >>>>>>>>>>>see here:
https://elifesciences.org/articles/69336
Perhaps you could explain any ethical issues you see in this article >>>>>>>>>>>.
. .
believe that this country publishes inaccurate statistics is highy >>>>>>>>questionable
and unethical. By what act of God or similar have we escaped this? >>>>>>>
as
much as anything else - therefore that we apparently escaped is >>>>>>questionable.
That depends on what you mean by escaped. Certainly we had deaths from >>>>>covid, but overall deaths reduced from those expected based on >>>>>previous years experience - but our death rates started to rise again >>>>>as controls tapered off and as some idiots decided that vaccines >>>>>should not be taken. Note that the scales on the charts fror different >>>>>countries are not the same.
that you have no wish to ever enter into any debate.
From: >>>https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-economist?uniformYAxis=0&country=USA~AUS~GBR~NZL
we see that the USA has experienced over 1.3 million deaths above the >>>previously normal level of mortality during the Covid period, the UK >>>about 220,000, Australia 29,000 and New Zealand, having experienced >>>-2,500 around the end of 2021, has reduced restrictions and has now >>>experieced additional deaths of around 260 for the whole Covid period
to now. Those figures represent losses of the following approximate >>>numbers of deaths per 100,000 of population: USA 402, UK 332,
Australia 112, New Zealand 5
see >>>https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-per-100k-economist
(hover over countries to get the estimate for that country - Vanuatu
has done well . . .)
i have already added to the debate that it is unlikely that we have no excess >>deaths based on the fact that few other countries have made that claim. As I >>suggested, maybe we and others are not reporting accurately.
The statistics are not made based on claims from individual countries,
they are based on evidence using population statistics. As my previous
post shows, we were at one stage well below excess deaths - our actual >mortality was about two and a half thousand lower than expected based
on pre-Covid mortality. The easing of protections in 2022 led to an
increase in the rate of deaths; we now have a cumulative total of
about 260 deaths higher than based on pre covid mortality.
If you go to >https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-per-100k-economist?tab=table
and click the sort arrow next to May 9, 2023, you will see a country >comparison of excess cumulative deaths - there are 18 countries with a
better result than New Zealand on those assessments.
As these are deaths from all causes, there is a lower likelihood of >inaccurate reporting than there may be for just Covid deaths.
The cumulative excess deaths per 100,000 population at May 9 2023 for
a few countries are:
New Zealand 5
Australia 112
Canada 144
Norway 151
Sweden 176
United Kingdom 332
United States 402
France 226Please carry on with such silly nonsense.
On Sat, 13 May 2023 21:44:52 -0000 (UTC), TonyThat is absolutely wrong. Excess deths in this context are not due to Covid, they are due to the way Covid has been treated/handled. That is the definition. Until you can show that NZ has posted results that are compatible with the analysis you used you are pissing into the wind, as I am sure you know.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 13 May 2023 00:28:23 -0000 (UTC), TonyPlease carry on with such silly nonsense.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2023 21:28:20 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:You really are obtuse.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:With such a bald and unsupported opinions from you Tony, it appears >>>>>that you have no wish to ever enter into any debate.
On Fri, 12 May 2023 05:00:26 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Which adds nothing to the debate.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2023 01:03:17 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:No, I don't believe that. Excess deaths are supposedly due to the >>>>>>>>vaccines
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Yes, in most coutries there were. For New Zealand, precautions taken >>>>>>>>>relating to Covid reduced deaths from road accidents as well as many >>>>>>>>>winter ailments, and we had lower deaths than we would normally have >>>>>>>>>expected - Australia was nearly as good, but the relatively poor >>>>>>>>>performance of the Liberals were enough that now the ALP is in >>>>>>>>>government feberally and in all States except Tasmania.
On Thu, 11 May 2023 20:41:50 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:There are excess deaths in many countries, perhaps most. Your refusal >>>>>>>>>>to
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:There is no lack of ethics in the post I made; the data for excess >>>>>>>>>>>deaths is clear, supported by the major countries who have the >>>>>>>>>>>ability
On Thu, 11 May 2023 05:30:18 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Not interested. I was commenting on your lack of ethics not >>>>>>>>>>>>somebody
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Some of the graphical results appear to be no longer available, but
On 11 May 2023 01:59:12 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>You however understand nothing of ethics or science. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Do just keep silent when others explain reality to you. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
Excess deaths are still happening
https://hatchardreport.com/fact-check-david-seymour-says-we-have-no-excess-deaths-is-he-right/
The UK MP Andrew Bridgen is also on the case, as are other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>people.Excess
deaths up
22% in April 2023. Many other countries also have excess deaths.
It is very disappointing that David Seymour can not get this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>right.
It
does
seem we have a uni party in Government. No choice, no >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>opposition.
Seymour is correct. It is not clear what the charts included by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hatchard show - he did not give urls. The Definition of excess >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>deaths is however critical - I suspect Hatchard does not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>understand
population statistics and what was being measured. This is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>however
an
area where performace by New Zealand was better than most other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>countries; it is a measure that summarises the excellent >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>decisions
made by our government right through the height of the Covid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>pandemic.
see here:
https://elifesciences.org/articles/69336
Perhaps you could explain any ethical issues you see in this >>>>>>>>>>>>>article
.
. .
elses.
to calculate those numbers, and hav been consistently reported for a >>>>>>>>>>>long time without any controversy.
believe that this country publishes inaccurate statistics is highy >>>>>>>>>>questionable
and unethical. By what act of God or similar have we escaped this? >>>>>>>>>
as
much as anything else - therefore that we apparently escaped is >>>>>>>>questionable.
That depends on what you mean by escaped. Certainly we had deaths from >>>>>>>covid, but overall deaths reduced from those expected based on >>>>>>>previous years experience - but our death rates started to rise again >>>>>>>as controls tapered off and as some idiots decided that vaccines >>>>>>>should not be taken. Note that the scales on the charts fror different >>>>>>>countries are not the same.
From: >>>>>https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-economist?uniformYAxis=0&country=USA~AUS~GBR~NZL
we see that the USA has experienced over 1.3 million deaths above the >>>>>previously normal level of mortality during the Covid period, the UK >>>>>about 220,000, Australia 29,000 and New Zealand, having experienced >>>>>-2,500 around the end of 2021, has reduced restrictions and has now >>>>>experieced additional deaths of around 260 for the whole Covid period >>>>>to now. Those figures represent losses of the following approximate >>>>>numbers of deaths per 100,000 of population: USA 402, UK 332, >>>>>Australia 112, New Zealand 5
see >>>>>https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-per-100k-economist
(hover over countries to get the estimate for that country - Vanuatu >>>>>has done well . . .)
i have already added to the debate that it is unlikely that we have no >>>>excess
deaths based on the fact that few other countries have made that claim. As >>>>I
suggested, maybe we and others are not reporting accurately.
The statistics are not made based on claims from individual countries, >>>they are based on evidence using population statistics. As my previous >>>post shows, we were at one stage well below excess deaths - our actual >>>mortality was about two and a half thousand lower than expected based
on pre-Covid mortality. The easing of protections in 2022 led to an >>>increase in the rate of deaths; we now have a cumulative total of
about 260 deaths higher than based on pre covid mortality.
If you go to >>>https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-per-100k-economist?tab=table
and click the sort arrow next to May 9, 2023, you will see a country >>>comparison of excess cumulative deaths - there are 18 countries with a >>>better result than New Zealand on those assessments.
As these are deaths from all causes, there is a lower likelihood of >>>inaccurate reporting than there may be for just Covid deaths.
The cumulative excess deaths per 100,000 population at May 9 2023 for
a few countries are:
New Zealand 5
Australia 112
Canada 144
Norway 151
Sweden 176
United Kingdom 332
United States 402
France 226
The fact is our reported or assumed figures appear to be muich lower than we >>would expect on the basis of other countries experience. I, and anybody who >>cares, would like to see someone satisfactorily explain that. Can you?
The answer is of course deaths from Covid.
to the table above I have added total confirmed deaths per million
population from here: >https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/rate-confirmed-cases-vs-rate-confirmed-deaths?tab=table
Excess Dths/Mil Covid Deaths/Mil
New Zealand 5 490
Australia 112 752 Canada
144 1,321
Norway 151 965
Sweden 176 2,248
France 226 2,495 United Kingdom
332 3,279
United States 402 3,279
Different governments took different precautions when Covid 19 first
became known. NZ was able to move more quickly than some, closing
borders had a big impact, as did isolation and masking.
If we had the same experience as the UK or USA, we would have had an >additional 16,000 deaths - I suspect we would have noticed that . . .
The reality is that the actions taken by governments did have a real
impact. There are other issues - for example Covid arrived as we were
heading towards winter - so staying at home was possibly easier for us
than countries coming out of winter. Covid restrictions are said to
have reduced normal winter deaths from influenza and colds, but those
are minor details - the big determinant was government decisions.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 13 May 2023 00:28:23 -0000 (UTC), TonyPlease carry on with such silly nonsense.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2023 21:28:20 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:You really are obtuse.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:With such a bald and unsupported opinions from you Tony, it appears >>>>that you have no wish to ever enter into any debate.
On Fri, 12 May 2023 05:00:26 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Which adds nothing to the debate.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2023 01:03:17 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:No, I don't believe that. Excess deaths are supposedly due to the >>>>>>>vaccines
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Yes, in most coutries there were. For New Zealand, precautions taken >>>>>>>>relating to Covid reduced deaths from road accidents as well as many >>>>>>>>winter ailments, and we had lower deaths than we would normally have >>>>>>>>expected - Australia was nearly as good, but the relatively poor >>>>>>>>performance of the Liberals were enough that now the ALP is in >>>>>>>>government feberally and in all States except Tasmania.
On Thu, 11 May 2023 20:41:50 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:There are excess deaths in many countries, perhaps most. Your refusal >>>>>>>>>to
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:There is no lack of ethics in the post I made; the data for excess >>>>>>>>>>deaths is clear, supported by the major countries who have the ability
On Thu, 11 May 2023 05:30:18 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Not interested. I was commenting on your lack of ethics not somebody >>>>>>>>>>>elses.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Some of the graphical results appear to be no longer available, but >>>>>>>>>>>>see here:
On 11 May 2023 01:59:12 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>You however understand nothing of ethics or science. >>>>>>>>>>>>>Do just keep silent when others explain reality to you. >>>>>>>>>>>>
Excess deaths are still happening
https://hatchardreport.com/fact-check-david-seymour-says-we-have-no-excess-deaths-is-he-right/
The UK MP Andrew Bridgen is also on the case, as are other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>people.Excess
deaths up
22% in April 2023. Many other countries also have excess deaths. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It is very disappointing that David Seymour can not get this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>right.
It
does
seem we have a uni party in Government. No choice, no opposition.
Seymour is correct. It is not clear what the charts included by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hatchard show - he did not give urls. The Definition of excess >>>>>>>>>>>>>>deaths is however critical - I suspect Hatchard does not understand
population statistics and what was being measured. This is however
an
area where performace by New Zealand was better than most other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>countries; it is a measure that summarises the excellent decisions
made by our government right through the height of the Covid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>pandemic.
https://elifesciences.org/articles/69336
Perhaps you could explain any ethical issues you see in this article
.
. .
to calculate those numbers, and hav been consistently reported for a >>>>>>>>>>long time without any controversy.
believe that this country publishes inaccurate statistics is highy >>>>>>>>>questionable
and unethical. By what act of God or similar have we escaped this? >>>>>>>>
as
much as anything else - therefore that we apparently escaped is >>>>>>>questionable.
That depends on what you mean by escaped. Certainly we had deaths from >>>>>>covid, but overall deaths reduced from those expected based on >>>>>>previous years experience - but our death rates started to rise again >>>>>>as controls tapered off and as some idiots decided that vaccines >>>>>>should not be taken. Note that the scales on the charts fror different >>>>>>countries are not the same.
From: >>>>https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-economist?uniformYAxis=0&country=USA~AUS~GBR~NZL
we see that the USA has experienced over 1.3 million deaths above the >>>>previously normal level of mortality during the Covid period, the UK >>>>about 220,000, Australia 29,000 and New Zealand, having experienced >>>>-2,500 around the end of 2021, has reduced restrictions and has now >>>>experieced additional deaths of around 260 for the whole Covid period >>>>to now. Those figures represent losses of the following approximate >>>>numbers of deaths per 100,000 of population: USA 402, UK 332,
Australia 112, New Zealand 5
see >>>>https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-per-100k-economist
(hover over countries to get the estimate for that country - Vanuatu >>>>has done well . . .)
i have already added to the debate that it is unlikely that we have no excess
deaths based on the fact that few other countries have made that claim. As I >>>suggested, maybe we and others are not reporting accurately.
The statistics are not made based on claims from individual countries,
they are based on evidence using population statistics. As my previous
post shows, we were at one stage well below excess deaths - our actual >>mortality was about two and a half thousand lower than expected based
on pre-Covid mortality. The easing of protections in 2022 led to an >>increase in the rate of deaths; we now have a cumulative total of
about 260 deaths higher than based on pre covid mortality.
If you go to >>https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-per-100k-economist?tab=table
and click the sort arrow next to May 9, 2023, you will see a country >>comparison of excess cumulative deaths - there are 18 countries with a >>better result than New Zealand on those assessments.
As these are deaths from all causes, there is a lower likelihood of >>inaccurate reporting than there may be for just Covid deaths.
The cumulative excess deaths per 100,000 population at May 9 2023 for
a few countries are:
New Zealand 5
Australia 112
Canada 144
Norway 151
Sweden 176
United Kingdom 332
United States 402
France 226
The fact is our reported or assumed figures appear to be muich lower than we >would expect on the basis of other countries experience. I, and anybody who >cares, would like to see someone satisfactorily explain that. Can you?
On Fri, 12 May 2023 05:00:26 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2023 01:03:17 -0000 (UTC), TonyNo, I don't believe that. Excess deaths are supposedly due to the vaccines as >>much as anything else - therefore that we apparently escaped is questionable.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 11 May 2023 20:41:50 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:There are excess deaths in many countries, perhaps most. Your refusal to >>>>believe that this country publishes inaccurate statistics is highy >>>>questionable
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:There is no lack of ethics in the post I made; the data for excess >>>>>deaths is clear, supported by the major countries who have the ability >>>>>to calculate those numbers, and hav been consistently reported for a >>>>>long time without any controversy.
On Thu, 11 May 2023 05:30:18 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Not interested. I was commenting on your lack of ethics not somebody elses.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 11 May 2023 01:59:12 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>Do just keep silent when others explain reality to you.
Excess deaths are still happeningSeymour is correct. It is not clear what the charts included by >>>>>>>>>Hatchard show - he did not give urls. The Definition of excess >>>>>>>>>deaths is however critical - I suspect Hatchard does not understand >>>>>>>>>population statistics and what was being measured. This is however an >>>>>>>>>area where performace by New Zealand was better than most other >>>>>>>>>countries; it is a measure that summarises the excellent decisions >>>>>>>>>made by our government right through the height of the Covid pandemic. >>>>>>>>You however understand nothing of ethics or science.
https://hatchardreport.com/fact-check-david-seymour-says-we-have-no-excess-deaths-is-he-right/
The UK MP Andrew Bridgen is also on the case, as are other >>>>>>>>>>people.Excess
deaths up
22% in April 2023. Many other countries also have excess deaths. >>>>>>>>>>
It is very disappointing that David Seymour can not get this right. It
does
seem we have a uni party in Government. No choice, no opposition. >>>>>>>>>
Some of the graphical results appear to be no longer available, but >>>>>>>see here:
https://elifesciences.org/articles/69336
Perhaps you could explain any ethical issues you see in this article . >>>>>>>. .
and unethical. By what act of God or similar have we escaped this?
Yes, in most coutries there were. For New Zealand, precautions taken >>>relating to Covid reduced deaths from road accidents as well as many >>>winter ailments, and we had lower deaths than we would normally have >>>expected - Australia was nearly as good, but the relatively poor >>>performance of the Liberals were enough that now the ALP is in
government feberally and in all States except Tasmania.
That depends on what you mean by escaped. Certainly we had deaths from
covid, but overall deaths reduced from those expected based on
previous years experience - but our death rates started to rise again
as controls tapered off and as some idiots decided that vaccines
should not be taken.
Note that the scales on the charts fror different
countries are not the same.
On Fri, 12 May 2023 21:28:20 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:With such a bald and unsupported opinions from you Tony, it appears
On Fri, 12 May 2023 05:00:26 -0000 (UTC), TonyWhich adds nothing to the debate.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2023 01:03:17 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:No, I don't believe that. Excess deaths are supposedly due to the vaccines as
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 11 May 2023 20:41:50 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:There are excess deaths in many countries, perhaps most. Your refusal to >>>>>>believe that this country publishes inaccurate statistics is highy >>>>>>questionable
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:There is no lack of ethics in the post I made; the data for excess >>>>>>>deaths is clear, supported by the major countries who have the ability >>>>>>>to calculate those numbers, and hav been consistently reported for a >>>>>>>long time without any controversy.
On Thu, 11 May 2023 05:30:18 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Not interested. I was commenting on your lack of ethics not somebody >>>>>>>>elses.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 11 May 2023 01:59:12 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>You however understand nothing of ethics or science.
Excess deaths are still happeningSeymour is correct. It is not clear what the charts included by >>>>>>>>>>>Hatchard show - he did not give urls. The Definition of excess >>>>>>>>>>>deaths is however critical - I suspect Hatchard does not understand >>>>>>>>>>>population statistics and what was being measured. This is however an
https://hatchardreport.com/fact-check-david-seymour-says-we-have-no-excess-deaths-is-he-right/
The UK MP Andrew Bridgen is also on the case, as are other >>>>>>>>>>>>people.Excess
deaths up
22% in April 2023. Many other countries also have excess deaths. >>>>>>>>>>>>
It is very disappointing that David Seymour can not get this right. >>>>>>>>>>>>It
does
seem we have a uni party in Government. No choice, no opposition. >>>>>>>>>>>
area where performace by New Zealand was better than most other >>>>>>>>>>>countries; it is a measure that summarises the excellent decisions >>>>>>>>>>>made by our government right through the height of the Covid pandemic.
Do just keep silent when others explain reality to you.
Some of the graphical results appear to be no longer available, but >>>>>>>>>see here:
https://elifesciences.org/articles/69336
Perhaps you could explain any ethical issues you see in this article . >>>>>>>>>. .
and unethical. By what act of God or similar have we escaped this?
Yes, in most coutries there were. For New Zealand, precautions taken >>>>>relating to Covid reduced deaths from road accidents as well as many >>>>>winter ailments, and we had lower deaths than we would normally have >>>>>expected - Australia was nearly as good, but the relatively poor >>>>>performance of the Liberals were enough that now the ALP is in >>>>>government feberally and in all States except Tasmania.
much as anything else - therefore that we apparently escaped is questionable.
That depends on what you mean by escaped. Certainly we had deaths from >>>covid, but overall deaths reduced from those expected based on
previous years experience - but our death rates started to rise again
as controls tapered off and as some idiots decided that vaccines
should not be taken. Note that the scales on the charts fror different >>>countries are not the same.
that you have no wish to ever enter into any debate.
From: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-economist?uniformYAxis=0&country=USA~AUS~GBR~NZL
we see that the USA has experienced over 1.3 million deaths above the previously normal level of mortality during the Covid period, the UK
about 220,000, Australia 29,000 and New Zealand, having experienced
-2,500 around the end of 2021, has reduced restrictions and has now experieced additional deaths of around 260 for the whole Covid period
to now. Those figures represent losses of the following approximate
numbers of deaths per 100,000 of population: USA 402, UK 332,
Australia 112, New Zealand 5
see https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-per-100k-economist
(hover over countries to get the estimate for that country - Vanuatu
has done well . . .)
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2023 21:28:20 -0000 (UTC), TonyYou really are obtuse.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:With such a bald and unsupported opinions from you Tony, it appears
On Fri, 12 May 2023 05:00:26 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Which adds nothing to the debate.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2023 01:03:17 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:No, I don't believe that. Excess deaths are supposedly due to the vaccines >>>>>as
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Yes, in most coutries there were. For New Zealand, precautions taken >>>>>>relating to Covid reduced deaths from road accidents as well as many >>>>>>winter ailments, and we had lower deaths than we would normally have >>>>>>expected - Australia was nearly as good, but the relatively poor >>>>>>performance of the Liberals were enough that now the ALP is in >>>>>>government feberally and in all States except Tasmania.
On Thu, 11 May 2023 20:41:50 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:There are excess deaths in many countries, perhaps most. Your refusal to >>>>>>>believe that this country publishes inaccurate statistics is highy >>>>>>>questionable
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:There is no lack of ethics in the post I made; the data for excess >>>>>>>>deaths is clear, supported by the major countries who have the ability >>>>>>>>to calculate those numbers, and hav been consistently reported for a >>>>>>>>long time without any controversy.
On Thu, 11 May 2023 05:30:18 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Not interested. I was commenting on your lack of ethics not somebody >>>>>>>>>elses.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 11 May 2023 01:59:12 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>You however understand nothing of ethics or science.
Excess deaths are still happeningSeymour is correct. It is not clear what the charts included by >>>>>>>>>>>>Hatchard show - he did not give urls. The Definition of excess >>>>>>>>>>>>deaths is however critical - I suspect Hatchard does not understand >>>>>>>>>>>>population statistics and what was being measured. This is however an
https://hatchardreport.com/fact-check-david-seymour-says-we-have-no-excess-deaths-is-he-right/
The UK MP Andrew Bridgen is also on the case, as are other >>>>>>>>>>>>>people.Excess
deaths up
22% in April 2023. Many other countries also have excess deaths. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
It is very disappointing that David Seymour can not get this right.
It
does
seem we have a uni party in Government. No choice, no opposition. >>>>>>>>>>>>
area where performace by New Zealand was better than most other >>>>>>>>>>>>countries; it is a measure that summarises the excellent decisions >>>>>>>>>>>>made by our government right through the height of the Covid >>>>>>>>>>>>pandemic.
Do just keep silent when others explain reality to you.
Some of the graphical results appear to be no longer available, but >>>>>>>>>>see here:
https://elifesciences.org/articles/69336
Perhaps you could explain any ethical issues you see in this article .
. .
and unethical. By what act of God or similar have we escaped this? >>>>>>
much as anything else - therefore that we apparently escaped is >>>>>questionable.
That depends on what you mean by escaped. Certainly we had deaths from >>>>covid, but overall deaths reduced from those expected based on
previous years experience - but our death rates started to rise again >>>>as controls tapered off and as some idiots decided that vaccines
should not be taken. Note that the scales on the charts fror different >>>>countries are not the same.
that you have no wish to ever enter into any debate.
From: >>https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-economist?uniformYAxis=0&country=USA~AUS~GBR~NZL
we see that the USA has experienced over 1.3 million deaths above the >>previously normal level of mortality during the Covid period, the UK
about 220,000, Australia 29,000 and New Zealand, having experienced
-2,500 around the end of 2021, has reduced restrictions and has now >>experieced additional deaths of around 260 for the whole Covid period
to now. Those figures represent losses of the following approximate
numbers of deaths per 100,000 of population: USA 402, UK 332,
Australia 112, New Zealand 5
see >>https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-per-100k-economist
(hover over countries to get the estimate for that country - Vanuatu
has done well . . .)
i have already added to the debate that it is unlikely that we have no excess deaths based on the fact that few other countries have made that claim. As I suggested, maybe we and others are not reporting accurately.
On Sat, 13 May 2023 00:28:23 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2023 21:28:20 -0000 (UTC), TonyYou really are obtuse.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:With such a bald and unsupported opinions from you Tony, it appears
On Fri, 12 May 2023 05:00:26 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Which adds nothing to the debate.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2023 01:03:17 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:No, I don't believe that. Excess deaths are supposedly due to the vaccines
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Yes, in most coutries there were. For New Zealand, precautions taken >>>>>>>relating to Covid reduced deaths from road accidents as well as many >>>>>>>winter ailments, and we had lower deaths than we would normally have >>>>>>>expected - Australia was nearly as good, but the relatively poor >>>>>>>performance of the Liberals were enough that now the ALP is in >>>>>>>government feberally and in all States except Tasmania.
On Thu, 11 May 2023 20:41:50 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:There are excess deaths in many countries, perhaps most. Your refusal to
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:There is no lack of ethics in the post I made; the data for excess >>>>>>>>>deaths is clear, supported by the major countries who have the ability >>>>>>>>>to calculate those numbers, and hav been consistently reported for a >>>>>>>>>long time without any controversy.
On Thu, 11 May 2023 05:30:18 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Not interested. I was commenting on your lack of ethics not somebody >>>>>>>>>>elses.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 11 May 2023 01:59:12 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>You however understand nothing of ethics or science.
Excess deaths are still happeningSeymour is correct. It is not clear what the charts included by >>>>>>>>>>>>>Hatchard show - he did not give urls. The Definition of excess >>>>>>>>>>>>>deaths is however critical - I suspect Hatchard does not understand
https://hatchardreport.com/fact-check-david-seymour-says-we-have-no-excess-deaths-is-he-right/
The UK MP Andrew Bridgen is also on the case, as are other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>people.Excess
deaths up
22% in April 2023. Many other countries also have excess deaths. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It is very disappointing that David Seymour can not get this right.
It
does
seem we have a uni party in Government. No choice, no opposition. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
population statistics and what was being measured. This is however an
area where performace by New Zealand was better than most other >>>>>>>>>>>>>countries; it is a measure that summarises the excellent decisions >>>>>>>>>>>>>made by our government right through the height of the Covid >>>>>>>>>>>>>pandemic.
Do just keep silent when others explain reality to you.
Some of the graphical results appear to be no longer available, but >>>>>>>>>>>see here:
https://elifesciences.org/articles/69336
Perhaps you could explain any ethical issues you see in this article .
. .
believe that this country publishes inaccurate statistics is highy >>>>>>>>questionable
and unethical. By what act of God or similar have we escaped this? >>>>>>>
as
much as anything else - therefore that we apparently escaped is >>>>>>questionable.
That depends on what you mean by escaped. Certainly we had deaths from >>>>>covid, but overall deaths reduced from those expected based on >>>>>previous years experience - but our death rates started to rise again >>>>>as controls tapered off and as some idiots decided that vaccines >>>>>should not be taken. Note that the scales on the charts fror different >>>>>countries are not the same.
that you have no wish to ever enter into any debate.
From: >>>https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-economist?uniformYAxis=0&country=USA~AUS~GBR~NZL
we see that the USA has experienced over 1.3 million deaths above the >>>previously normal level of mortality during the Covid period, the UK >>>about 220,000, Australia 29,000 and New Zealand, having experienced >>>-2,500 around the end of 2021, has reduced restrictions and has now >>>experieced additional deaths of around 260 for the whole Covid period
to now. Those figures represent losses of the following approximate >>>numbers of deaths per 100,000 of population: USA 402, UK 332,
Australia 112, New Zealand 5
see >>>https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-per-100k-economist
(hover over countries to get the estimate for that country - Vanuatu
has done well . . .)
i have already added to the debate that it is unlikely that we have no excess >>deaths based on the fact that few other countries have made that claim. As I >>suggested, maybe we and others are not reporting accurately.
The statistics are not made based on claims from individual countries,
they are based on evidence using population statistics. As my previous
post shows, we were at one stage well below excess deaths - our actual mortality was about two and a half thousand lower than expected based
on pre-Covid mortality. The easing of protections in 2022 led to an
increase in the rate of deaths; we now have a cumulative total of
about 260 deaths higher than based on pre covid mortality.
If you go to https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-per-100k-economist?tab=table
and click the sort arrow next to May 9, 2023, you will see a country comparison of excess cumulative deaths - there are 18 countries with a
better result than New Zealand on those assessments.
As these are deaths from all causes, there is a lower likelihood of inaccurate reporting than there may be for just Covid deaths.
The cumulative excess deaths per 100,000 population at May 9 2023 for
a few countries are:
New Zealand 5
Australia 112
Canada 144
Norway 151
Sweden 176
United Kingdom 332
United States 402
France 226
On Sat, 13 May 2023 21:44:52 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 13 May 2023 00:28:23 -0000 (UTC), TonyPlease carry on with such silly nonsense.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2023 21:28:20 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:You really are obtuse.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:With such a bald and unsupported opinions from you Tony, it appears >>>>>that you have no wish to ever enter into any debate.
On Fri, 12 May 2023 05:00:26 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Which adds nothing to the debate.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2023 01:03:17 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:No, I don't believe that. Excess deaths are supposedly due to the >>>>>>>>vaccines
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Yes, in most coutries there were. For New Zealand, precautions taken >>>>>>>>>relating to Covid reduced deaths from road accidents as well as many >>>>>>>>>winter ailments, and we had lower deaths than we would normally have >>>>>>>>>expected - Australia was nearly as good, but the relatively poor >>>>>>>>>performance of the Liberals were enough that now the ALP is in >>>>>>>>>government feberally and in all States except Tasmania.
On Thu, 11 May 2023 20:41:50 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:There are excess deaths in many countries, perhaps most. Your refusal >>>>>>>>>>to
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:There is no lack of ethics in the post I made; the data for excess >>>>>>>>>>>deaths is clear, supported by the major countries who have the ability
On Thu, 11 May 2023 05:30:18 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Not interested. I was commenting on your lack of ethics not somebody
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Some of the graphical results appear to be no longer available, but
On 11 May 2023 01:59:12 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>You however understand nothing of ethics or science. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Do just keep silent when others explain reality to you. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
Excess deaths are still happening
https://hatchardreport.com/fact-check-david-seymour-says-we-have-no-excess-deaths-is-he-right/
The UK MP Andrew Bridgen is also on the case, as are other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>people.Excess
deaths up
22% in April 2023. Many other countries also have excess deaths.
It is very disappointing that David Seymour can not get this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>right.
It
does
seem we have a uni party in Government. No choice, no opposition.
Seymour is correct. It is not clear what the charts included by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hatchard show - he did not give urls. The Definition of excess >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>deaths is however critical - I suspect Hatchard does not understand
population statistics and what was being measured. This is however
an
area where performace by New Zealand was better than most other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>countries; it is a measure that summarises the excellent decisions
made by our government right through the height of the Covid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>pandemic.
see here:
https://elifesciences.org/articles/69336
Perhaps you could explain any ethical issues you see in this article
.
. .
elses.
to calculate those numbers, and hav been consistently reported for a >>>>>>>>>>>long time without any controversy.
believe that this country publishes inaccurate statistics is highy >>>>>>>>>>questionable
and unethical. By what act of God or similar have we escaped this? >>>>>>>>>
as
much as anything else - therefore that we apparently escaped is >>>>>>>>questionable.
That depends on what you mean by escaped. Certainly we had deaths from >>>>>>>covid, but overall deaths reduced from those expected based on >>>>>>>previous years experience - but our death rates started to rise again >>>>>>>as controls tapered off and as some idiots decided that vaccines >>>>>>>should not be taken. Note that the scales on the charts fror different >>>>>>>countries are not the same.
From: >>>>>https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-economist?uniformYAxis=0&country=USA~AUS~GBR~NZL
we see that the USA has experienced over 1.3 million deaths above the >>>>>previously normal level of mortality during the Covid period, the UK >>>>>about 220,000, Australia 29,000 and New Zealand, having experienced >>>>>-2,500 around the end of 2021, has reduced restrictions and has now >>>>>experieced additional deaths of around 260 for the whole Covid period >>>>>to now. Those figures represent losses of the following approximate >>>>>numbers of deaths per 100,000 of population: USA 402, UK 332, >>>>>Australia 112, New Zealand 5
see >>>>>https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-per-100k-economist
(hover over countries to get the estimate for that country - Vanuatu >>>>>has done well . . .)
i have already added to the debate that it is unlikely that we have no excess
deaths based on the fact that few other countries have made that claim. As I
suggested, maybe we and others are not reporting accurately.
The statistics are not made based on claims from individual countries, >>>they are based on evidence using population statistics. As my previous >>>post shows, we were at one stage well below excess deaths - our actual >>>mortality was about two and a half thousand lower than expected based
on pre-Covid mortality. The easing of protections in 2022 led to an >>>increase in the rate of deaths; we now have a cumulative total of
about 260 deaths higher than based on pre covid mortality.
If you go to >>>https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-per-100k-economist?tab=table
and click the sort arrow next to May 9, 2023, you will see a country >>>comparison of excess cumulative deaths - there are 18 countries with a >>>better result than New Zealand on those assessments.
As these are deaths from all causes, there is a lower likelihood of >>>inaccurate reporting than there may be for just Covid deaths.
The cumulative excess deaths per 100,000 population at May 9 2023 for
a few countries are:
New Zealand 5
Australia 112
Canada 144
Norway 151
Sweden 176
United Kingdom 332
United States 402
France 226
The fact is our reported or assumed figures appear to be muich lower than we >>would expect on the basis of other countries experience. I, and anybody who >>cares, would like to see someone satisfactorily explain that. Can you?
The answer is of course deaths from Covid.
to the table above I have added total confirmed deaths per million
population from here: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/rate-confirmed-cases-vs-rate-confirmed-deaths?tab=table
Excess Dths/Mil Covid Deaths/Mil
New Zealand 5 490
Australia 112 752 Canada
144 1,321
Norway 151 965
Sweden 176 2,248
France 226 2,495 United Kingdom
332 3,279
United States 402 3,279
Different governments took different precautions when Covid 19 first
became known. NZ was able to move more quickly than some, closing
borders had a big impact, as did isolation and masking.
If we had the same experience as the UK or USA, we would have had an additional 16,000 deaths - I suspect we would have noticed that . . .
The reality is that the actions taken by governments did have a real
impact. There are other issues - for example Covid arrived as we were
heading towards winter - so staying at home was possibly easier for us
than countries coming out of winter. Covid restrictions are said to
have reduced normal winter deaths from influenza and colds, but those
are minor details - the big determinant was government decisions.
On 2023-05-12, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2023 21:28:20 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:With such a bald and unsupported opinions from you Tony, it appears
On Fri, 12 May 2023 05:00:26 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Which adds nothing to the debate.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2023 01:03:17 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:No, I don't believe that. Excess deaths are supposedly due to the vaccines as
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Yes, in most coutries there were. For New Zealand, precautions taken >>>>>>relating to Covid reduced deaths from road accidents as well as many >>>>>>winter ailments, and we had lower deaths than we would normally have >>>>>>expected - Australia was nearly as good, but the relatively poor >>>>>>performance of the Liberals were enough that now the ALP is in >>>>>>government feberally and in all States except Tasmania.
On Thu, 11 May 2023 20:41:50 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:There are excess deaths in many countries, perhaps most. Your refusal to >>>>>>>believe that this country publishes inaccurate statistics is highy >>>>>>>questionable
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:There is no lack of ethics in the post I made; the data for excess >>>>>>>>deaths is clear, supported by the major countries who have the ability >>>>>>>>to calculate those numbers, and hav been consistently reported for a >>>>>>>>long time without any controversy.
On Thu, 11 May 2023 05:30:18 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Not interested. I was commenting on your lack of ethics not somebody >>>>>>>>>elses.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 11 May 2023 01:59:12 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>You however understand nothing of ethics or science.
Excess deaths are still happeningSeymour is correct. It is not clear what the charts included by >>>>>>>>>>>>Hatchard show - he did not give urls. The Definition of excess >>>>>>>>>>>>deaths is however critical - I suspect Hatchard does not understand >>>>>>>>>>>>population statistics and what was being measured. This is however an
https://hatchardreport.com/fact-check-david-seymour-says-we-have-no-excess-deaths-is-he-right/
The UK MP Andrew Bridgen is also on the case, as are other >>>>>>>>>>>>>people.Excess
deaths up
22% in April 2023. Many other countries also have excess deaths. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
It is very disappointing that David Seymour can not get this right.
It
does
seem we have a uni party in Government. No choice, no opposition. >>>>>>>>>>>>
area where performace by New Zealand was better than most other >>>>>>>>>>>>countries; it is a measure that summarises the excellent decisions >>>>>>>>>>>>made by our government right through the height of the Covid pandemic.
Do just keep silent when others explain reality to you.
Some of the graphical results appear to be no longer available, but >>>>>>>>>>see here:
https://elifesciences.org/articles/69336
Perhaps you could explain any ethical issues you see in this article .
. .
and unethical. By what act of God or similar have we escaped this? >>>>>>
much as anything else - therefore that we apparently escaped is questionable.
That depends on what you mean by escaped. Certainly we had deaths from >>>>covid, but overall deaths reduced from those expected based on
previous years experience - but our death rates started to rise again >>>>as controls tapered off and as some idiots decided that vaccines
should not be taken. Note that the scales on the charts fror different >>>>countries are not the same.
that you have no wish to ever enter into any debate.
From:
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-economist?uniformYAxis=0&country=USA~AUS~GBR~NZL
we see that the USA has experienced over 1.3 million deaths above the
previously normal level of mortality during the Covid period, the UK
about 220,000, Australia 29,000 and New Zealand, having experienced
-2,500 around the end of 2021, has reduced restrictions and has now
experieced additional deaths of around 260 for the whole Covid period
to now. Those figures represent losses of the following approximate
numbers of deaths per 100,000 of population: USA 402, UK 332,
Australia 112, New Zealand 5
see
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-per-100k-economist
(hover over countries to get the estimate for that country - Vanuatu
has done well . . .)
Those figures are the model of the actual deaths compared with the official >figures.
A different beast from the extra deaths over and above those expected based >on the death rates without Covid.
On 2023-05-13, Tony <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2023 21:28:20 -0000 (UTC), TonyYou really are obtuse.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:With such a bald and unsupported opinions from you Tony, it appears
On Fri, 12 May 2023 05:00:26 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Which adds nothing to the debate.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2023 01:03:17 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:No, I don't believe that. Excess deaths are supposedly due to the vaccines
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Yes, in most coutries there were. For New Zealand, precautions taken >>>>>>>relating to Covid reduced deaths from road accidents as well as many >>>>>>>winter ailments, and we had lower deaths than we would normally have >>>>>>>expected - Australia was nearly as good, but the relatively poor >>>>>>>performance of the Liberals were enough that now the ALP is in >>>>>>>government feberally and in all States except Tasmania.
On Thu, 11 May 2023 20:41:50 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:There are excess deaths in many countries, perhaps most. Your refusal to
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:There is no lack of ethics in the post I made; the data for excess >>>>>>>>>deaths is clear, supported by the major countries who have the ability >>>>>>>>>to calculate those numbers, and hav been consistently reported for a >>>>>>>>>long time without any controversy.
On Thu, 11 May 2023 05:30:18 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Not interested. I was commenting on your lack of ethics not somebody >>>>>>>>>>elses.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 11 May 2023 01:59:12 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>You however understand nothing of ethics or science.
Excess deaths are still happeningSeymour is correct. It is not clear what the charts included by >>>>>>>>>>>>>Hatchard show - he did not give urls. The Definition of excess >>>>>>>>>>>>>deaths is however critical - I suspect Hatchard does not understand
https://hatchardreport.com/fact-check-david-seymour-says-we-have-no-excess-deaths-is-he-right/
The UK MP Andrew Bridgen is also on the case, as are other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>people.Excess
deaths up
22% in April 2023. Many other countries also have excess deaths. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It is very disappointing that David Seymour can not get this right.
It
does
seem we have a uni party in Government. No choice, no opposition. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
population statistics and what was being measured. This is however an
area where performace by New Zealand was better than most other >>>>>>>>>>>>>countries; it is a measure that summarises the excellent decisions >>>>>>>>>>>>>made by our government right through the height of the Covid >>>>>>>>>>>>>pandemic.
Do just keep silent when others explain reality to you.
Some of the graphical results appear to be no longer available, but >>>>>>>>>>>see here:
https://elifesciences.org/articles/69336
Perhaps you could explain any ethical issues you see in this article .
. .
believe that this country publishes inaccurate statistics is highy >>>>>>>>questionable
and unethical. By what act of God or similar have we escaped this? >>>>>>>
as
much as anything else - therefore that we apparently escaped is >>>>>>questionable.
That depends on what you mean by escaped. Certainly we had deaths from >>>>>covid, but overall deaths reduced from those expected based on >>>>>previous years experience - but our death rates started to rise again >>>>>as controls tapered off and as some idiots decided that vaccines >>>>>should not be taken. Note that the scales on the charts fror different >>>>>countries are not the same.
that you have no wish to ever enter into any debate.
From: >>>https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-economist?uniformYAxis=0&country=USA~AUS~GBR~NZL
we see that the USA has experienced over 1.3 million deaths above the >>>previously normal level of mortality during the Covid period, the UK >>>about 220,000, Australia 29,000 and New Zealand, having experienced >>>-2,500 around the end of 2021, has reduced restrictions and has now >>>experieced additional deaths of around 260 for the whole Covid period
to now. Those figures represent losses of the following approximate >>>numbers of deaths per 100,000 of population: USA 402, UK 332,
Australia 112, New Zealand 5
see >>>https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-per-100k-economist
(hover over countries to get the estimate for that country - Vanuatu
has done well . . .)
i have already added to the debate that it is unlikely that we have no excess
deaths based on the fact that few other countries have made that claim. As I >> suggested, maybe we and others are not reporting accurately.
In my view this is likely. Stressed out data gathers and a narrative with
was not transparent.
On 2023-05-13, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Pretty unlikely unless the population is decreasing at a similar rate.
On Sat, 13 May 2023 00:28:23 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2023 21:28:20 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:You really are obtuse.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:With such a bald and unsupported opinions from you Tony, it appears >>>>that you have no wish to ever enter into any debate.
On Fri, 12 May 2023 05:00:26 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Which adds nothing to the debate.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2023 01:03:17 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:No, I don't believe that. Excess deaths are supposedly due to the >>>>>>>vaccines
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Yes, in most coutries there were. For New Zealand, precautions taken >>>>>>>>relating to Covid reduced deaths from road accidents as well as many >>>>>>>>winter ailments, and we had lower deaths than we would normally have >>>>>>>>expected - Australia was nearly as good, but the relatively poor >>>>>>>>performance of the Liberals were enough that now the ALP is in >>>>>>>>government feberally and in all States except Tasmania.
On Thu, 11 May 2023 20:41:50 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:There are excess deaths in many countries, perhaps most. Your refusal >>>>>>>>>to
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:There is no lack of ethics in the post I made; the data for excess >>>>>>>>>>deaths is clear, supported by the major countries who have the ability
On Thu, 11 May 2023 05:30:18 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Not interested. I was commenting on your lack of ethics not somebody >>>>>>>>>>>elses.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Some of the graphical results appear to be no longer available, but >>>>>>>>>>>>see here:
On 11 May 2023 01:59:12 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>You however understand nothing of ethics or science. >>>>>>>>>>>>>Do just keep silent when others explain reality to you. >>>>>>>>>>>>
Excess deaths are still happening
https://hatchardreport.com/fact-check-david-seymour-says-we-have-no-excess-deaths-is-he-right/
The UK MP Andrew Bridgen is also on the case, as are other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>people.Excess
deaths up
22% in April 2023. Many other countries also have excess deaths. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It is very disappointing that David Seymour can not get this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>right.
It
does
seem we have a uni party in Government. No choice, no opposition.
Seymour is correct. It is not clear what the charts included by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hatchard show - he did not give urls. The Definition of excess >>>>>>>>>>>>>>deaths is however critical - I suspect Hatchard does not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>understand
population statistics and what was being measured. This is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>however an
area where performace by New Zealand was better than most other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>countries; it is a measure that summarises the excellent decisions
made by our government right through the height of the Covid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>pandemic.
https://elifesciences.org/articles/69336
Perhaps you could explain any ethical issues you see in this >>>>>>>>>>>>article .
. .
to calculate those numbers, and hav been consistently reported for a >>>>>>>>>>long time without any controversy.
believe that this country publishes inaccurate statistics is highy >>>>>>>>>questionable
and unethical. By what act of God or similar have we escaped this? >>>>>>>>
as
much as anything else - therefore that we apparently escaped is >>>>>>>questionable.
That depends on what you mean by escaped. Certainly we had deaths from >>>>>>covid, but overall deaths reduced from those expected based on >>>>>>previous years experience - but our death rates started to rise again >>>>>>as controls tapered off and as some idiots decided that vaccines >>>>>>should not be taken. Note that the scales on the charts fror different >>>>>>countries are not the same.
From: >>>>https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-economist?uniformYAxis=0&country=USA~AUS~GBR~NZL
we see that the USA has experienced over 1.3 million deaths above the >>>>previously normal level of mortality during the Covid period, the UK >>>>about 220,000, Australia 29,000 and New Zealand, having experienced >>>>-2,500 around the end of 2021, has reduced restrictions and has now >>>>experieced additional deaths of around 260 for the whole Covid period >>>>to now. Those figures represent losses of the following approximate >>>>numbers of deaths per 100,000 of population: USA 402, UK 332,
Australia 112, New Zealand 5
see >>>>https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-per-100k-economist
(hover over countries to get the estimate for that country - Vanuatu >>>>has done well . . .)
i have already added to the debate that it is unlikely that we have no >>>excess
deaths based on the fact that few other countries have made that claim. As I >>>suggested, maybe we and others are not reporting accurately.
The statistics are not made based on claims from individual countries,
they are based on evidence using population statistics. As my previous
post shows, we were at one stage well below excess deaths - our actual
mortality was about two and a half thousand lower than expected based
on pre-Covid mortality. The easing of protections in 2022 led to an
increase in the rate of deaths; we now have a cumulative total of
about 260 deaths higher than based on pre covid mortality.
If you go to
and click the sort arrow next to May 9, 2023, you will see a countryhttps://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-per-100k-economist?tab=table
comparison of excess cumulative deaths - there are 18 countries with a
better result than New Zealand on those assessments.
As these are deaths from all causes, there is a lower likelihood of
inaccurate reporting than there may be for just Covid deaths.
The cumulative excess deaths per 100,000 population at May 9 2023 for
a few countries are:
New Zealand 5
Australia 112
Canada 144
Norway 151
Sweden 176
United Kingdom 332
United States 402
France 226
I really struggle how a graph of Cumulative of excess deaths can decrease. >Might be that the country's deaths are not increasing to be at the world >average. That might be it.
On 2023-05-13, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 13 May 2023 00:28:23 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2023 21:28:20 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:You really are obtuse.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:With such a bald and unsupported opinions from you Tony, it appears >>>>that you have no wish to ever enter into any debate.
On Fri, 12 May 2023 05:00:26 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Which adds nothing to the debate.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2023 01:03:17 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:No, I don't believe that. Excess deaths are supposedly due to the vaccines
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Yes, in most coutries there were. For New Zealand, precautions taken >>>>>>>>relating to Covid reduced deaths from road accidents as well as many >>>>>>>>winter ailments, and we had lower deaths than we would normally have >>>>>>>>expected - Australia was nearly as good, but the relatively poor >>>>>>>>performance of the Liberals were enough that now the ALP is in >>>>>>>>government feberally and in all States except Tasmania.
On Thu, 11 May 2023 20:41:50 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:There are excess deaths in many countries, perhaps most. Your refusal to
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:There is no lack of ethics in the post I made; the data for excess >>>>>>>>>>deaths is clear, supported by the major countries who have the ability
On Thu, 11 May 2023 05:30:18 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Not interested. I was commenting on your lack of ethics not somebody >>>>>>>>>>>elses.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Some of the graphical results appear to be no longer available, but >>>>>>>>>>>>see here:
On 11 May 2023 01:59:12 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>You however understand nothing of ethics or science. >>>>>>>>>>>>>Do just keep silent when others explain reality to you. >>>>>>>>>>>>
Excess deaths are still happening
https://hatchardreport.com/fact-check-david-seymour-says-we-have-no-excess-deaths-is-he-right/
The UK MP Andrew Bridgen is also on the case, as are other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>people.Excess
deaths up
22% in April 2023. Many other countries also have excess deaths. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It is very disappointing that David Seymour can not get this right.
It
does
seem we have a uni party in Government. No choice, no opposition.
Seymour is correct. It is not clear what the charts included by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hatchard show - he did not give urls. The Definition of excess >>>>>>>>>>>>>>deaths is however critical - I suspect Hatchard does not understand
population statistics and what was being measured. This is however an
area where performace by New Zealand was better than most other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>countries; it is a measure that summarises the excellent decisions
made by our government right through the height of the Covid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>pandemic.
https://elifesciences.org/articles/69336
Perhaps you could explain any ethical issues you see in this article .
. .
to calculate those numbers, and hav been consistently reported for a >>>>>>>>>>long time without any controversy.
believe that this country publishes inaccurate statistics is highy >>>>>>>>>questionable
and unethical. By what act of God or similar have we escaped this? >>>>>>>>
as
much as anything else - therefore that we apparently escaped is >>>>>>>questionable.
That depends on what you mean by escaped. Certainly we had deaths from >>>>>>covid, but overall deaths reduced from those expected based on >>>>>>previous years experience - but our death rates started to rise again >>>>>>as controls tapered off and as some idiots decided that vaccines >>>>>>should not be taken. Note that the scales on the charts fror different >>>>>>countries are not the same.
From: >>>>https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-economist?uniformYAxis=0&country=USA~AUS~GBR~NZL
we see that the USA has experienced over 1.3 million deaths above the >>>>previously normal level of mortality during the Covid period, the UK >>>>about 220,000, Australia 29,000 and New Zealand, having experienced >>>>-2,500 around the end of 2021, has reduced restrictions and has now >>>>experieced additional deaths of around 260 for the whole Covid period >>>>to now. Those figures represent losses of the following approximate >>>>numbers of deaths per 100,000 of population: USA 402, UK 332,
Australia 112, New Zealand 5
see >>>>https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-per-100k-economist
(hover over countries to get the estimate for that country - Vanuatu >>>>has done well . . .)
i have already added to the debate that it is unlikely that we have no excess
deaths based on the fact that few other countries have made that claim. As I >>>suggested, maybe we and others are not reporting accurately.
The statistics are not made based on claims from individual countries,
they are based on evidence using population statistics. As my previous
post shows, we were at one stage well below excess deaths - our actual
mortality was about two and a half thousand lower than expected based
on pre-Covid mortality. The easing of protections in 2022 led to an
increase in the rate of deaths; we now have a cumulative total of
about 260 deaths higher than based on pre covid mortality.
If you go to
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-per-100k-economist?tab=table
and click the sort arrow next to May 9, 2023, you will see a country
comparison of excess cumulative deaths - there are 18 countries with a
better result than New Zealand on those assessments.
As these are deaths from all causes, there is a lower likelihood of
inaccurate reporting than there may be for just Covid deaths.
The cumulative excess deaths per 100,000 population at May 9 2023 for
a few countries are:
New Zealand 5
Australia 112
Canada 144
Norway 151
Sweden 176
United Kingdom 332
United States 402
France 226
I really struggle how a graph of Cumulative of excess deaths can decrease. >Might be that the country's deaths are not increasing to be at the world >average. That might be it.
On 2023-05-14, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 13 May 2023 21:44:52 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 13 May 2023 00:28:23 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Please carry on with such silly nonsense.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2023 21:28:20 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:You really are obtuse.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:With such a bald and unsupported opinions from you Tony, it appears >>>>>>that you have no wish to ever enter into any debate.
On Fri, 12 May 2023 05:00:26 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Which adds nothing to the debate.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2023 01:03:17 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:No, I don't believe that. Excess deaths are supposedly due to the >>>>>>>>>vaccines
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Yes, in most coutries there were. For New Zealand, precautions taken >>>>>>>>>>relating to Covid reduced deaths from road accidents as well as many >>>>>>>>>>winter ailments, and we had lower deaths than we would normally have >>>>>>>>>>expected - Australia was nearly as good, but the relatively poor >>>>>>>>>>performance of the Liberals were enough that now the ALP is in >>>>>>>>>>government feberally and in all States except Tasmania.
On Thu, 11 May 2023 20:41:50 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:There are excess deaths in many countries, perhaps most. Your refusal
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:There is no lack of ethics in the post I made; the data for excess >>>>>>>>>>>>deaths is clear, supported by the major countries who have the ability
On Thu, 11 May 2023 05:30:18 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Not interested. I was commenting on your lack of ethics not somebody
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Some of the graphical results appear to be no longer available, but
On 11 May 2023 01:59:12 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>You however understand nothing of ethics or science. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Do just keep silent when others explain reality to you. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Excess deaths are still happening
https://hatchardreport.com/fact-check-david-seymour-says-we-have-no-excess-deaths-is-he-right/
The UK MP Andrew Bridgen is also on the case, as are other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>people.Excess
deaths up
22% in April 2023. Many other countries also have excess deaths.
It is very disappointing that David Seymour can not get this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>right.
It
does
seem we have a uni party in Government. No choice, no opposition.
Seymour is correct. It is not clear what the charts included by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hatchard show - he did not give urls. The Definition of excess
deaths is however critical - I suspect Hatchard does not understand
population statistics and what was being measured. This is however
an
area where performace by New Zealand was better than most other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>countries; it is a measure that summarises the excellent decisions
made by our government right through the height of the Covid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>pandemic.
see here:
https://elifesciences.org/articles/69336
Perhaps you could explain any ethical issues you see in this article
.
. .
elses.
to calculate those numbers, and hav been consistently reported for a
long time without any controversy.
to
believe that this country publishes inaccurate statistics is highy >>>>>>>>>>>questionable
and unethical. By what act of God or similar have we escaped this? >>>>>>>>>>
as
much as anything else - therefore that we apparently escaped is >>>>>>>>>questionable.
That depends on what you mean by escaped. Certainly we had deaths from >>>>>>>>covid, but overall deaths reduced from those expected based on >>>>>>>>previous years experience - but our death rates started to rise again >>>>>>>>as controls tapered off and as some idiots decided that vaccines >>>>>>>>should not be taken. Note that the scales on the charts fror different >>>>>>>>countries are not the same.
From: >>>>>>https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-economist?uniformYAxis=0&country=USA~AUS~GBR~NZL
we see that the USA has experienced over 1.3 million deaths above the >>>>>>previously normal level of mortality during the Covid period, the UK >>>>>>about 220,000, Australia 29,000 and New Zealand, having experienced >>>>>>-2,500 around the end of 2021, has reduced restrictions and has now >>>>>>experieced additional deaths of around 260 for the whole Covid period >>>>>>to now. Those figures represent losses of the following approximate >>>>>>numbers of deaths per 100,000 of population: USA 402, UK 332, >>>>>>Australia 112, New Zealand 5
see >>>>>>https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-per-100k-economist
(hover over countries to get the estimate for that country - Vanuatu >>>>>>has done well . . .)
i have already added to the debate that it is unlikely that we have no excess
deaths based on the fact that few other countries have made that claim. As I
suggested, maybe we and others are not reporting accurately.
The statistics are not made based on claims from individual countries, >>>>they are based on evidence using population statistics. As my previous >>>>post shows, we were at one stage well below excess deaths - our actual >>>>mortality was about two and a half thousand lower than expected based >>>>on pre-Covid mortality. The easing of protections in 2022 led to an >>>>increase in the rate of deaths; we now have a cumulative total of
about 260 deaths higher than based on pre covid mortality.
If you go to >>>>https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-per-100k-economist?tab=table
and click the sort arrow next to May 9, 2023, you will see a country >>>>comparison of excess cumulative deaths - there are 18 countries with a >>>>better result than New Zealand on those assessments.
As these are deaths from all causes, there is a lower likelihood of >>>>inaccurate reporting than there may be for just Covid deaths.
The cumulative excess deaths per 100,000 population at May 9 2023 for
a few countries are:
New Zealand 5
Australia 112
Canada 144
Norway 151
Sweden 176
United Kingdom 332
United States 402
France 226
The fact is our reported or assumed figures appear to be muich lower than we >>>would expect on the basis of other countries experience. I, and anybody who >>>cares, would like to see someone satisfactorily explain that. Can you?
The answer is of course deaths from Covid.
to the table above I have added total confirmed deaths per million
population from here:
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/rate-confirmed-cases-vs-rate-confirmed-deaths?tab=table
Excess Dths/Mil Covid Deaths/Mil
New Zealand 5 490
Australia 112 752 Canada
144 1,321
Norway 151 965
Sweden 176 2,248
France 226 2,495 United Kingdom
332 3,279
United States 402 3,279
Different governments took different precautions when Covid 19 first
became known. NZ was able to move more quickly than some, closing
borders had a big impact, as did isolation and masking.
There have been studies which show that masks had no effect on the >tramissiablity of the virus.
https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD006207.pub6/full
If we had the same experience as the UK or USA, we would have had an
additional 16,000 deaths - I suspect we would have noticed that . . .
The reality is that the actions taken by governments did have a real
impact. There are other issues - for example Covid arrived as we were
heading towards winter - so staying at home was possibly easier for us
than countries coming out of winter. Covid restrictions are said to
have reduced normal winter deaths from influenza and colds, but those
are minor details - the big determinant was government decisions.
On Tue, 16 May 2023 03:42:31 -0000 (UTC), TonyWell done, so you followed my lead.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
On 2023-05-13, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Pretty unlikely unless the population is decreasing at a similar rate.
On Sat, 13 May 2023 00:28:23 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2023 21:28:20 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:You really are obtuse.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:With such a bald and unsupported opinions from you Tony, it appears >>>>>>that you have no wish to ever enter into any debate.
On Fri, 12 May 2023 05:00:26 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Which adds nothing to the debate.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2023 01:03:17 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:No, I don't believe that. Excess deaths are supposedly due to the >>>>>>>>>vaccines
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Yes, in most coutries there were. For New Zealand, precautions taken >>>>>>>>>>relating to Covid reduced deaths from road accidents as well as many >>>>>>>>>>winter ailments, and we had lower deaths than we would normally have >>>>>>>>>>expected - Australia was nearly as good, but the relatively poor >>>>>>>>>>performance of the Liberals were enough that now the ALP is in >>>>>>>>>>government feberally and in all States except Tasmania.
On Thu, 11 May 2023 20:41:50 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:There are excess deaths in many countries, perhaps most. Your >>>>>>>>>>>refusal
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:There is no lack of ethics in the post I made; the data for excess >>>>>>>>>>>>deaths is clear, supported by the major countries who have the >>>>>>>>>>>>ability
On Thu, 11 May 2023 05:30:18 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Not interested. I was commenting on your lack of ethics not >>>>>>>>>>>>>somebody
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Some of the graphical results appear to be no longer available, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>but
On 11 May 2023 01:59:12 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>You however understand nothing of ethics or science. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Do just keep silent when others explain reality to you. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Excess deaths are still happening
https://hatchardreport.com/fact-check-david-seymour-says-we-have-no-excess-deaths-is-he-right/
The UK MP Andrew Bridgen is also on the case, as are other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>people.Excess
deaths up
22% in April 2023. Many other countries also have excess >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>deaths.
It is very disappointing that David Seymour can not get this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>right.
It
does
seem we have a uni party in Government. No choice, no >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>opposition.
Seymour is correct. It is not clear what the charts included by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hatchard show - he did not give urls. The Definition of excess
deaths is however critical - I suspect Hatchard does not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>understand
population statistics and what was being measured. This is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>however an
area where performace by New Zealand was better than most other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>countries; it is a measure that summarises the excellent >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>decisions
made by our government right through the height of the Covid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>pandemic.
see here:
https://elifesciences.org/articles/69336
Perhaps you could explain any ethical issues you see in this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>article .
. .
elses.
to calculate those numbers, and hav been consistently reported for a
long time without any controversy.
to
believe that this country publishes inaccurate statistics is highy >>>>>>>>>>>questionable
and unethical. By what act of God or similar have we escaped this? >>>>>>>>>>
as
much as anything else - therefore that we apparently escaped is >>>>>>>>>questionable.
That depends on what you mean by escaped. Certainly we had deaths from >>>>>>>>covid, but overall deaths reduced from those expected based on >>>>>>>>previous years experience - but our death rates started to rise again >>>>>>>>as controls tapered off and as some idiots decided that vaccines >>>>>>>>should not be taken. Note that the scales on the charts fror different >>>>>>>>countries are not the same.
From: >>>>>>https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-economist?uniformYAxis=0&country=USA~AUS~GBR~NZL
we see that the USA has experienced over 1.3 million deaths above the >>>>>>previously normal level of mortality during the Covid period, the UK >>>>>>about 220,000, Australia 29,000 and New Zealand, having experienced >>>>>>-2,500 around the end of 2021, has reduced restrictions and has now >>>>>>experieced additional deaths of around 260 for the whole Covid period >>>>>>to now. Those figures represent losses of the following approximate >>>>>>numbers of deaths per 100,000 of population: USA 402, UK 332, >>>>>>Australia 112, New Zealand 5
see >>>>>>https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-per-100k-economist
(hover over countries to get the estimate for that country - Vanuatu >>>>>>has done well . . .)
i have already added to the debate that it is unlikely that we have no >>>>>excess
deaths based on the fact that few other countries have made that claim. As >>>>>I
suggested, maybe we and others are not reporting accurately.
The statistics are not made based on claims from individual countries, >>>> they are based on evidence using population statistics. As my previous >>>> post shows, we were at one stage well below excess deaths - our actual >>>> mortality was about two and a half thousand lower than expected based
on pre-Covid mortality. The easing of protections in 2022 led to an
increase in the rate of deaths; we now have a cumulative total of
about 260 deaths higher than based on pre covid mortality.
If you go to
and click the sort arrow next to May 9, 2023, you will see a countryhttps://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-per-100k-economist?tab=table
comparison of excess cumulative deaths - there are 18 countries with a >>>> better result than New Zealand on those assessments.
As these are deaths from all causes, there is a lower likelihood of
inaccurate reporting than there may be for just Covid deaths.
The cumulative excess deaths per 100,000 population at May 9 2023 for
a few countries are:
New Zealand 5
Australia 112
Canada 144
Norway 151
Sweden 176
United Kingdom 332
United States 402
France 226
I really struggle how a graph of Cumulative of excess deaths can decrease. >>>Might be that the country's deaths are not increasing to be at the world >>>average. That might be it.
The overall rate of deaths per 100,000 population are not particualrly >affected by changes in population. The number of deaths will be lower
for a lower population, but it does ot necessarily change the rate of
deaths per 100,000 population.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 16 May 2023 01:35:40 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:Is that an assumption or provably reliable?
On 2023-05-13, Tony <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2023 21:28:20 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:You really are obtuse.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:With such a bald and unsupported opinions from you Tony, it appears >>>>>that you have no wish to ever enter into any debate.
On Fri, 12 May 2023 05:00:26 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Which adds nothing to the debate.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2023 01:03:17 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:No, I don't believe that. Excess deaths are supposedly due to the >>>>>>>>vaccines
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Yes, in most coutries there were. For New Zealand, precautions taken >>>>>>>>>relating to Covid reduced deaths from road accidents as well as many >>>>>>>>>winter ailments, and we had lower deaths than we would normally have >>>>>>>>>expected - Australia was nearly as good, but the relatively poor >>>>>>>>>performance of the Liberals were enough that now the ALP is in >>>>>>>>>government feberally and in all States except Tasmania.
On Thu, 11 May 2023 20:41:50 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:There are excess deaths in many countries, perhaps most. Your refusal >>>>>>>>>>to
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:There is no lack of ethics in the post I made; the data for excess >>>>>>>>>>>deaths is clear, supported by the major countries who have the ability
On Thu, 11 May 2023 05:30:18 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Not interested. I was commenting on your lack of ethics not somebody
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Some of the graphical results appear to be no longer available, but
On 11 May 2023 01:59:12 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>You however understand nothing of ethics or science. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Do just keep silent when others explain reality to you. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
Excess deaths are still happening
https://hatchardreport.com/fact-check-david-seymour-says-we-have-no-excess-deaths-is-he-right/
The UK MP Andrew Bridgen is also on the case, as are other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>people.Excess
deaths up
22% in April 2023. Many other countries also have excess deaths.
It is very disappointing that David Seymour can not get this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>right.
It
does
seem we have a uni party in Government. No choice, no opposition.
Seymour is correct. It is not clear what the charts included by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hatchard show - he did not give urls. The Definition of excess >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>deaths is however critical - I suspect Hatchard does not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>understand
population statistics and what was being measured. This is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>however an
area where performace by New Zealand was better than most other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>countries; it is a measure that summarises the excellent decisions
made by our government right through the height of the Covid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>pandemic.
see here:
https://elifesciences.org/articles/69336
Perhaps you could explain any ethical issues you see in this >>>>>>>>>>>>>article .
. .
elses.
to calculate those numbers, and hav been consistently reported for a >>>>>>>>>>>long time without any controversy.
believe that this country publishes inaccurate statistics is highy >>>>>>>>>>questionable
and unethical. By what act of God or similar have we escaped this? >>>>>>>>>
as
much as anything else - therefore that we apparently escaped is >>>>>>>>questionable.
That depends on what you mean by escaped. Certainly we had deaths from >>>>>>>covid, but overall deaths reduced from those expected based on >>>>>>>previous years experience - but our death rates started to rise again >>>>>>>as controls tapered off and as some idiots decided that vaccines >>>>>>>should not be taken. Note that the scales on the charts fror different >>>>>>>countries are not the same.
From: >>>>>https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-economist?uniformYAxis=0&country=USA~AUS~GBR~NZL
we see that the USA has experienced over 1.3 million deaths above the >>>>>previously normal level of mortality during the Covid period, the UK >>>>>about 220,000, Australia 29,000 and New Zealand, having experienced >>>>>-2,500 around the end of 2021, has reduced restrictions and has now >>>>>experieced additional deaths of around 260 for the whole Covid period >>>>>to now. Those figures represent losses of the following approximate >>>>>numbers of deaths per 100,000 of population: USA 402, UK 332, >>>>>Australia 112, New Zealand 5
see >>>>>https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-per-100k-economist
(hover over countries to get the estimate for that country - Vanuatu >>>>>has done well . . .)
i have already added to the debate that it is unlikely that we have no >>>>excess
deaths based on the fact that few other countries have made that claim. As >>>>I
suggested, maybe we and others are not reporting accurately.
In my view this is likely. Stressed out data gathers and a narrative with >>>was not transparent.
There is not likely to be any inaccuracy in our reporting of deaths
from all causes.
As far as Covid deaths are concerned we have usd the
same definition as the other countries. Some countries were not
included in the comparisons as their Covid statistics were not
considered reliable.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 16 May 2023 03:42:31 -0000 (UTC), TonyWell done, so you followed my lead.
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
On 2023-05-13, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Pretty unlikely unless the population is decreasing at a similar rate.
On Sat, 13 May 2023 00:28:23 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2023 21:28:20 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:You really are obtuse.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:With such a bald and unsupported opinions from you Tony, it appears >>>>>>>that you have no wish to ever enter into any debate.
On Fri, 12 May 2023 05:00:26 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Which adds nothing to the debate.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2023 01:03:17 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:as
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Yes, in most coutries there were. For New Zealand, precautions taken >>>>>>>>>>>relating to Covid reduced deaths from road accidents as well as many >>>>>>>>>>>winter ailments, and we had lower deaths than we would normally have >>>>>>>>>>>expected - Australia was nearly as good, but the relatively poor >>>>>>>>>>>performance of the Liberals were enough that now the ALP is in >>>>>>>>>>>government feberally and in all States except Tasmania. >>>>>>>>>>No, I don't believe that. Excess deaths are supposedly due to the >>>>>>>>>>vaccines
On Thu, 11 May 2023 20:41:50 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:There are excess deaths in many countries, perhaps most. Your >>>>>>>>>>>>refusal
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:There is no lack of ethics in the post I made; the data for excess >>>>>>>>>>>>>deaths is clear, supported by the major countries who have the >>>>>>>>>>>>>ability
On Thu, 11 May 2023 05:30:18 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Not interested. I was commenting on your lack of ethics not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>somebody
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Some of the graphical results appear to be no longer available, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>but
On 11 May 2023 01:59:12 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:You however understand nothing of ethics or science. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Do just keep silent when others explain reality to you. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Excess deaths are still happening
https://hatchardreport.com/fact-check-david-seymour-says-we-have-no-excess-deaths-is-he-right/
The UK MP Andrew Bridgen is also on the case, as are other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>people.Excess
deaths up
22% in April 2023. Many other countries also have excess >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>deaths.
It is very disappointing that David Seymour can not get this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>right.
It
does
seem we have a uni party in Government. No choice, no >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>opposition.
Seymour is correct. It is not clear what the charts included by
Hatchard show - he did not give urls. The Definition of excess
deaths is however critical - I suspect Hatchard does not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>understand
population statistics and what was being measured. This is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>however an
area where performace by New Zealand was better than most other
countries; it is a measure that summarises the excellent >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>decisions
made by our government right through the height of the Covid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>pandemic.
see here: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>https://elifesciences.org/articles/69336
Perhaps you could explain any ethical issues you see in this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>article .
. .
elses.
to calculate those numbers, and hav been consistently reported for a
long time without any controversy.
to
believe that this country publishes inaccurate statistics is highy >>>>>>>>>>>>questionable
and unethical. By what act of God or similar have we escaped this? >>>>>>>>>>>
much as anything else - therefore that we apparently escaped is >>>>>>>>>>questionable.
That depends on what you mean by escaped. Certainly we had deaths from >>>>>>>>>covid, but overall deaths reduced from those expected based on >>>>>>>>>previous years experience - but our death rates started to rise again >>>>>>>>>as controls tapered off and as some idiots decided that vaccines >>>>>>>>>should not be taken. Note that the scales on the charts fror different >>>>>>>>>countries are not the same.
From: >>>>>>>https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-economist?uniformYAxis=0&country=USA~AUS~GBR~NZL
we see that the USA has experienced over 1.3 million deaths above the >>>>>>>previously normal level of mortality during the Covid period, the UK >>>>>>>about 220,000, Australia 29,000 and New Zealand, having experienced >>>>>>>-2,500 around the end of 2021, has reduced restrictions and has now >>>>>>>experieced additional deaths of around 260 for the whole Covid period >>>>>>>to now. Those figures represent losses of the following approximate >>>>>>>numbers of deaths per 100,000 of population: USA 402, UK 332, >>>>>>>Australia 112, New Zealand 5
see >>>>>>>https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-per-100k-economist
(hover over countries to get the estimate for that country - Vanuatu >>>>>>>has done well . . .)
i have already added to the debate that it is unlikely that we have no >>>>>>excess
deaths based on the fact that few other countries have made that claim. As
I
suggested, maybe we and others are not reporting accurately.
The statistics are not made based on claims from individual countries, >>>>> they are based on evidence using population statistics. As my previous >>>>> post shows, we were at one stage well below excess deaths - our actual >>>>> mortality was about two and a half thousand lower than expected based >>>>> on pre-Covid mortality. The easing of protections in 2022 led to an
increase in the rate of deaths; we now have a cumulative total of
about 260 deaths higher than based on pre covid mortality.
If you go to
and click the sort arrow next to May 9, 2023, you will see a country >>>>> comparison of excess cumulative deaths - there are 18 countries with a >>>>> better result than New Zealand on those assessments.https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-per-100k-economist?tab=table
As these are deaths from all causes, there is a lower likelihood of
inaccurate reporting than there may be for just Covid deaths.
The cumulative excess deaths per 100,000 population at May 9 2023 for >>>>> a few countries are:
New Zealand 5
Australia 112
Canada 144
Norway 151
Sweden 176
United Kingdom 332
United States 402
France 226
I really struggle how a graph of Cumulative of excess deaths can decrease. >>>>Might be that the country's deaths are not increasing to be at the world >>>>average. That might be it.
The overall rate of deaths per 100,000 population are not particualrly >>affected by changes in population. The number of deaths will be lower
for a lower population, but it does ot necessarily change the rate of >>deaths per 100,000 population.
And apparently agree, therefore, that there is an anomoly. Do you know what >that anomoly is?
On 16 May 2023 01:45:12 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:Good try but just rhetoric.
On 2023-05-13, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 13 May 2023 00:28:23 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2023 21:28:20 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:You really are obtuse.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:With such a bald and unsupported opinions from you Tony, it appears >>>>>that you have no wish to ever enter into any debate.
On Fri, 12 May 2023 05:00:26 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Which adds nothing to the debate.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2023 01:03:17 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:No, I don't believe that. Excess deaths are supposedly due to the >>>>>>>>vaccines
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Yes, in most coutries there were. For New Zealand, precautions taken >>>>>>>>>relating to Covid reduced deaths from road accidents as well as many >>>>>>>>>winter ailments, and we had lower deaths than we would normally have >>>>>>>>>expected - Australia was nearly as good, but the relatively poor >>>>>>>>>performance of the Liberals were enough that now the ALP is in >>>>>>>>>government feberally and in all States except Tasmania.
On Thu, 11 May 2023 20:41:50 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:There are excess deaths in many countries, perhaps most. Your refusal >>>>>>>>>>to
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:There is no lack of ethics in the post I made; the data for excess >>>>>>>>>>>deaths is clear, supported by the major countries who have the >>>>>>>>>>>ability
On Thu, 11 May 2023 05:30:18 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Not interested. I was commenting on your lack of ethics not >>>>>>>>>>>>somebody
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Some of the graphical results appear to be no longer available, but
On 11 May 2023 01:59:12 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>You however understand nothing of ethics or science. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Do just keep silent when others explain reality to you. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
Excess deaths are still happening
https://hatchardreport.com/fact-check-david-seymour-says-we-have-no-excess-deaths-is-he-right/
The UK MP Andrew Bridgen is also on the case, as are other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>people.Excess
deaths up
22% in April 2023. Many other countries also have excess deaths.
It is very disappointing that David Seymour can not get this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>right.
It
does
seem we have a uni party in Government. No choice, no >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>opposition.
Seymour is correct. It is not clear what the charts included by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hatchard show - he did not give urls. The Definition of excess >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>deaths is however critical - I suspect Hatchard does not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>understand
population statistics and what was being measured. This is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>however an
area where performace by New Zealand was better than most other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>countries; it is a measure that summarises the excellent >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>decisions
made by our government right through the height of the Covid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>pandemic.
see here:
https://elifesciences.org/articles/69336
Perhaps you could explain any ethical issues you see in this >>>>>>>>>>>>>article .
. .
elses.
to calculate those numbers, and hav been consistently reported for a >>>>>>>>>>>long time without any controversy.
believe that this country publishes inaccurate statistics is highy >>>>>>>>>>questionable
and unethical. By what act of God or similar have we escaped this? >>>>>>>>>
as
much as anything else - therefore that we apparently escaped is >>>>>>>>questionable.
That depends on what you mean by escaped. Certainly we had deaths from >>>>>>>covid, but overall deaths reduced from those expected based on >>>>>>>previous years experience - but our death rates started to rise again >>>>>>>as controls tapered off and as some idiots decided that vaccines >>>>>>>should not be taken. Note that the scales on the charts fror different >>>>>>>countries are not the same.
From: >>>>>https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-economist?uniformYAxis=0&country=USA~AUS~GBR~NZL
we see that the USA has experienced over 1.3 million deaths above the >>>>>previously normal level of mortality during the Covid period, the UK >>>>>about 220,000, Australia 29,000 and New Zealand, having experienced >>>>>-2,500 around the end of 2021, has reduced restrictions and has now >>>>>experieced additional deaths of around 260 for the whole Covid period >>>>>to now. Those figures represent losses of the following approximate >>>>>numbers of deaths per 100,000 of population: USA 402, UK 332, >>>>>Australia 112, New Zealand 5
see >>>>>https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-per-100k-economist
(hover over countries to get the estimate for that country - Vanuatu >>>>>has done well . . .)
i have already added to the debate that it is unlikely that we have no >>>>excess
deaths based on the fact that few other countries have made that claim. As >>>>I
suggested, maybe we and others are not reporting accurately.
The statistics are not made based on claims from individual countries,
they are based on evidence using population statistics. As my previous
post shows, we were at one stage well below excess deaths - our actual
mortality was about two and a half thousand lower than expected based
on pre-Covid mortality. The easing of protections in 2022 led to an
increase in the rate of deaths; we now have a cumulative total of
about 260 deaths higher than based on pre covid mortality.
If you go to
and click the sort arrow next to May 9, 2023, you will see a countryhttps://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-per-100k-economist?tab=table
comparison of excess cumulative deaths - there are 18 countries with a
better result than New Zealand on those assessments.
As these are deaths from all causes, there is a lower likelihood of
inaccurate reporting than there may be for just Covid deaths.
The cumulative excess deaths per 100,000 population at May 9 2023 for
a few countries are:
New Zealand 5
Australia 112
Canada 144
Norway 151
Sweden 176
United Kingdom 332
United States 402
France 226
I really struggle how a graph of Cumulative of excess deaths can decrease. >>Might be that the country's deaths are not increasing to be at the world >>average. That might be it.
When we first went into lockdown, we isolated people with any illness
- through that first winter influenza did not spread as badly, and we
had fewer deaths than normally. Retirement villages were more isolated
than normal, fewer of those residents died that year. We had the
benefit of very few instances of Covid coming into the country - while
one infection did spread, we did our best to minimise illness through >isolation of those with symptoms. Most countries by that time already
had covid infections more widely spread int heir community. So for a
while we had deaths lower than expected rates. Later, we had more
centres of infection, but by then many had been vaccinated, which kept
Covid deaths, and hence total deaths, lower than in pre-covid times.
Later again we eased restrictions, stopped isolating those infected,
stopped wearing masks near others, and our mortailty rates returned to >normal, or a bit higher than pre-covid rates due to the additional
burden of infections including continuing covid infections; and the
total 'excess mortality' has turned from lower death rates to now very >slightly higher than pre-covid.
In most other countries overall death rates have reduced a bit from
the higher experience during the pandemic, but are still higher than
death rates pre-covid.
On 16 May 2023 01:35:40 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:Is that an assumption or provably reliable?
On 2023-05-13, Tony <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2023 21:28:20 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:You really are obtuse.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:With such a bald and unsupported opinions from you Tony, it appears >>>>that you have no wish to ever enter into any debate.
On Fri, 12 May 2023 05:00:26 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Which adds nothing to the debate.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2023 01:03:17 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:No, I don't believe that. Excess deaths are supposedly due to the >>>>>>>vaccines
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Yes, in most coutries there were. For New Zealand, precautions taken >>>>>>>>relating to Covid reduced deaths from road accidents as well as many >>>>>>>>winter ailments, and we had lower deaths than we would normally have >>>>>>>>expected - Australia was nearly as good, but the relatively poor >>>>>>>>performance of the Liberals were enough that now the ALP is in >>>>>>>>government feberally and in all States except Tasmania.
On Thu, 11 May 2023 20:41:50 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:There are excess deaths in many countries, perhaps most. Your refusal >>>>>>>>>to
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:There is no lack of ethics in the post I made; the data for excess >>>>>>>>>>deaths is clear, supported by the major countries who have the ability
On Thu, 11 May 2023 05:30:18 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Not interested. I was commenting on your lack of ethics not somebody >>>>>>>>>>>elses.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Some of the graphical results appear to be no longer available, but >>>>>>>>>>>>see here:
On 11 May 2023 01:59:12 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>You however understand nothing of ethics or science. >>>>>>>>>>>>>Do just keep silent when others explain reality to you. >>>>>>>>>>>>
Excess deaths are still happening
https://hatchardreport.com/fact-check-david-seymour-says-we-have-no-excess-deaths-is-he-right/
The UK MP Andrew Bridgen is also on the case, as are other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>people.Excess
deaths up
22% in April 2023. Many other countries also have excess deaths. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It is very disappointing that David Seymour can not get this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>right.
It
does
seem we have a uni party in Government. No choice, no opposition.
Seymour is correct. It is not clear what the charts included by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hatchard show - he did not give urls. The Definition of excess >>>>>>>>>>>>>>deaths is however critical - I suspect Hatchard does not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>understand
population statistics and what was being measured. This is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>however an
area where performace by New Zealand was better than most other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>countries; it is a measure that summarises the excellent decisions
made by our government right through the height of the Covid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>pandemic.
https://elifesciences.org/articles/69336
Perhaps you could explain any ethical issues you see in this >>>>>>>>>>>>article .
. .
to calculate those numbers, and hav been consistently reported for a >>>>>>>>>>long time without any controversy.
believe that this country publishes inaccurate statistics is highy >>>>>>>>>questionable
and unethical. By what act of God or similar have we escaped this? >>>>>>>>
as
much as anything else - therefore that we apparently escaped is >>>>>>>questionable.
That depends on what you mean by escaped. Certainly we had deaths from >>>>>>covid, but overall deaths reduced from those expected based on >>>>>>previous years experience - but our death rates started to rise again >>>>>>as controls tapered off and as some idiots decided that vaccines >>>>>>should not be taken. Note that the scales on the charts fror different >>>>>>countries are not the same.
From: >>>>https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-economist?uniformYAxis=0&country=USA~AUS~GBR~NZL
we see that the USA has experienced over 1.3 million deaths above the >>>>previously normal level of mortality during the Covid period, the UK >>>>about 220,000, Australia 29,000 and New Zealand, having experienced >>>>-2,500 around the end of 2021, has reduced restrictions and has now >>>>experieced additional deaths of around 260 for the whole Covid period >>>>to now. Those figures represent losses of the following approximate >>>>numbers of deaths per 100,000 of population: USA 402, UK 332,
Australia 112, New Zealand 5
see >>>>https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-per-100k-economist
(hover over countries to get the estimate for that country - Vanuatu >>>>has done well . . .)
i have already added to the debate that it is unlikely that we have no >>>excess
deaths based on the fact that few other countries have made that claim. As >>>I
suggested, maybe we and others are not reporting accurately.
In my view this is likely. Stressed out data gathers and a narrative with >>was not transparent.
There is not likely to be any inaccuracy in our reporting of deaths
from all causes.
As far as Covid deaths are concerned we have usd the
same definition as the other countries. Some countries were not
included in the comparisons as their Covid statistics were not
considered reliable.
Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
On 2023-05-13, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Pretty unlikely unless the population is decreasing at a similar rate.
On Sat, 13 May 2023 00:28:23 -0000 (UTC), Tony
<lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2023 21:28:20 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:You really are obtuse.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:With such a bald and unsupported opinions from you Tony, it appears >>>>>that you have no wish to ever enter into any debate.
On Fri, 12 May 2023 05:00:26 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Which adds nothing to the debate.
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2023 01:03:17 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:No, I don't believe that. Excess deaths are supposedly due to the >>>>>>>>vaccines
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Yes, in most coutries there were. For New Zealand, precautions taken >>>>>>>>>relating to Covid reduced deaths from road accidents as well as many >>>>>>>>>winter ailments, and we had lower deaths than we would normally have >>>>>>>>>expected - Australia was nearly as good, but the relatively poor >>>>>>>>>performance of the Liberals were enough that now the ALP is in >>>>>>>>>government feberally and in all States except Tasmania.
On Thu, 11 May 2023 20:41:50 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:There are excess deaths in many countries, perhaps most. Your refusal >>>>>>>>>>to
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:There is no lack of ethics in the post I made; the data for excess >>>>>>>>>>>deaths is clear, supported by the major countries who have the ability
On Thu, 11 May 2023 05:30:18 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>>>>>><lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:Not interested. I was commenting on your lack of ethics not somebody
Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:Some of the graphical results appear to be no longer available, but
On 11 May 2023 01:59:12 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>You however understand nothing of ethics or science. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Do just keep silent when others explain reality to you. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
Excess deaths are still happening
https://hatchardreport.com/fact-check-david-seymour-says-we-have-no-excess-deaths-is-he-right/
The UK MP Andrew Bridgen is also on the case, as are other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>people.Excess
deaths up
22% in April 2023. Many other countries also have excess deaths.
It is very disappointing that David Seymour can not get this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>right.
It
does
seem we have a uni party in Government. No choice, no opposition.
Seymour is correct. It is not clear what the charts included by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hatchard show - he did not give urls. The Definition of excess >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>deaths is however critical - I suspect Hatchard does not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>understand
population statistics and what was being measured. This is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>however an
area where performace by New Zealand was better than most other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>countries; it is a measure that summarises the excellent decisions
made by our government right through the height of the Covid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>pandemic.
see here:
https://elifesciences.org/articles/69336
Perhaps you could explain any ethical issues you see in this >>>>>>>>>>>>>article .
. .
elses.
to calculate those numbers, and hav been consistently reported for a >>>>>>>>>>>long time without any controversy.
believe that this country publishes inaccurate statistics is highy >>>>>>>>>>questionable
and unethical. By what act of God or similar have we escaped this? >>>>>>>>>
as
much as anything else - therefore that we apparently escaped is >>>>>>>>questionable.
That depends on what you mean by escaped. Certainly we had deaths from >>>>>>>covid, but overall deaths reduced from those expected based on >>>>>>>previous years experience - but our death rates started to rise again >>>>>>>as controls tapered off and as some idiots decided that vaccines >>>>>>>should not be taken. Note that the scales on the charts fror different >>>>>>>countries are not the same.
From: >>>>>https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-economist?uniformYAxis=0&country=USA~AUS~GBR~NZL
we see that the USA has experienced over 1.3 million deaths above the >>>>>previously normal level of mortality during the Covid period, the UK >>>>>about 220,000, Australia 29,000 and New Zealand, having experienced >>>>>-2,500 around the end of 2021, has reduced restrictions and has now >>>>>experieced additional deaths of around 260 for the whole Covid period >>>>>to now. Those figures represent losses of the following approximate >>>>>numbers of deaths per 100,000 of population: USA 402, UK 332, >>>>>Australia 112, New Zealand 5
see >>>>>https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-per-100k-economist
(hover over countries to get the estimate for that country - Vanuatu >>>>>has done well . . .)
i have already added to the debate that it is unlikely that we have no >>>>excess
deaths based on the fact that few other countries have made that claim. As I
suggested, maybe we and others are not reporting accurately.
The statistics are not made based on claims from individual countries,
they are based on evidence using population statistics. As my previous
post shows, we were at one stage well below excess deaths - our actual
mortality was about two and a half thousand lower than expected based
on pre-Covid mortality. The easing of protections in 2022 led to an
increase in the rate of deaths; we now have a cumulative total of
about 260 deaths higher than based on pre covid mortality.
If you go to
and click the sort arrow next to May 9, 2023, you will see a countryhttps://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-per-100k-economist?tab=table
comparison of excess cumulative deaths - there are 18 countries with a
better result than New Zealand on those assessments.
As these are deaths from all causes, there is a lower likelihood of
inaccurate reporting than there may be for just Covid deaths.
The cumulative excess deaths per 100,000 population at May 9 2023 for
a few countries are:
New Zealand 5
Australia 112
Canada 144
Norway 151
Sweden 176
United Kingdom 332
United States 402
France 226
I really struggle how a graph of Cumulative of excess deaths can decrease. >>Might be that the country's deaths are not increasing to be at the world >>average. That might be it.
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