• More sense about Maureen Pugh and Luxon.

    From Tony@21:1/5 to All on Sat Feb 25 19:18:22 2023
    XPost: nz.politics

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/131328117/damien-grant-why-we-need-to-stand-up-for-the-maureen-pughs-of-the-world
    It takes a non-journalist to show how it should be done.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Bowes@21:1/5 to Tony on Sat Feb 25 13:17:46 2023
    On Sunday, February 26, 2023 at 8:18:24 AM UTC+13, Tony wrote:
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/131328117/damien-grant-why-we-need-to-stand-up-for-the-maureen-pughs-of-the-world
    It takes a non-journalist to show how it should be done.
    Well put! We need to debate climate change. Not take every pronouncement from the UN as gospel. Rich has bleated about scientific consensus which is just bullshit for we know best and you musn't question us! The UN has moved a long way from it's initial
    charter and it's time to have a debate about it's real worth. It was never supposed to become a nascent world government but it's trying supported by know nothings like the ever more tyrannical Rich80105!!!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to lizandtony@orcon.net.nz on Sun Feb 26 11:57:28 2023
    On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 19:18:22 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/131328117/damien-grant-why-we-need-to-stand-up-for-the-maureen-pughs-of-the-world
    It takes a non-journalist to show how it should be done.

    I agree Tony, the story has always been more about Luxon and his lack
    of real leadership. National signed us up for the international
    Climate Change agreement before Luxon was in parliament, but when he
    became leader of the National Party, all the focus for Luxon was on
    poll ratings, so he tried to agree with everyone. His line on climate
    change ws that yes there is an agreement but we do not need to do
    anything at present, or we need to move slowly - he needed to get the
    support of anyone at all - including those who he fundamentally
    disagreed with, like the less extreme Covid sceptics and anti-vaxxers,
    and farmers who wanted to keep sending nitrates downstream, etc, etc.
    Far right libertarians like Damien Grant, Jordan Williams and David
    Farrar were happy with that - they share a wish to do away with the
    top tax rate, and Luxon has been steadfast on that as well.

    So what went wrong? I suspect it was the slim possibiity of being
    elected that made Luxon listent to someone and found out how much New
    Zealand would have to pay for not meeting climate change targets. That
    alone would have made him wonder what sort of constraints there may be
    on dropping that top tax rate - he knows that there is a huge demand
    for money to bring our health sector back from the years of neglect
    under Key/English (who wanted the private sector to take over . . .).

    Then we had the floods, and National were being told by their voters
    that it was climate change. Put the two together and Luxon decided to
    change course. But he did not think to tell his team - and poor
    Maureen Pugh was left high and dry - she did not realise the spin line
    had changed - but she soon realised that the authoritarian nature of
    the Nats meant that when the leader changed his mond, you changed
    yours as well - she duly did a u-turn within hours. That is the part
    Damien Grand and David Seymour do not like, and all it would have
    taken is a bit of leadership to avoid that visible evidence of his incompetence.

    Now we have the Luxon response to Three Waters - they want it to be
    paid for by water users through rates or levies. I can understand that
    from Luxon's perspective - he does not want it to stop getting ris of
    the top tax rate, but has he thought that through? He owns a number of
    houses - and probably knows that landlords will just have to build the
    cost of higher rates into rents, and make tenants pay for any water
    meter bills. No problem! But it isn't that simple. I quote:
    _______________
    The problem is that National, when in government, never attempted to
    enforce the rule, guidelines and legislation that already existed.
    Never dragged councils and councillors into court for dereliction of
    duty in not increasing rates to cover the required future of their
    water resources. It doesn’t sound like they have the backbone to do it
    now as well.

    Why do they see to think that scolding councillors will work over the
    next 30 years. It never did in the past.

    Never helped councils with small or poor ratepayer bases to pay for
    their upgrades. National's only contribution to councils water in the
    past has been to put limits on what they could borrow to finance these
    works. You’ll note that they haven’t mentioned anything about raising
    debt ceilings for councils thate they previously imposed?

    National just announced they aren't going to do anything significiant.
    They're just going to hand the task of an under-resourced and
    toothless oversight group that has absolutely no powers to do anything
    useful – like capital financing.

    Notably there was nothing about new legislation in the area to replace
    the legislation they are want to remove – just regulation. That
    approach is the useless one that caused the current under funding and
    lack of maintenance of water infrastructure.

    Notably, they managed to not mention the biggest single issue for
    smaller councils. That they cannot afford to hire the expertise to
    actually upgrade their water infrastructure. That is one of the key
    advantages

    National is what you use when you need useless and completely
    ineffectual. They certainly delivered that with this pile of waffling. _________________________

    That is from
    https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-25-02-2023/#comment-1936716

    and before you condemn the comments because of the source, just think
    about what is being said. We have just been through severe storm
    effects that will cost a huge amount to recover from - one estimate I
    have heard is that between $120 and $185 billion dollars of investment
    in three waters (drinking water, waste water and storm water)
    infrastructure will be needed over the next 30 years to improve the
    quality of our drinking water and wastewater and stormwater
    management, across New Zealand.

    So ask yourself, has Luxon canvassed his brilliant solution with his
    wider team, the National Party members? Since he doesn't appear to
    talk to even all his MPs, this seems unlikely. Think about the farmers
    in Canterbury. National disbanded ECAN because it was going to ask too
    much from the farmers, but now there will be rules about water (which
    there already are), but with the stated intention of actually
    enforcing them! Some of those farmers are their own Water authority,
    but they will be upset about having to reduce the nitrate that they
    leach into the underground aquifers and possibly reduce the amount of
    water that they take from rivers - if some small town authorities
    cannot afford the ascientific and engineering expertise required, how
    will an individual farmer faced with having to change away from cattle
    herding to reduce emissions and pollution?

    Then think about the areas that have been affected by the recent
    storms. Managed Retreat is a real possibility in some areas - the
    government is wisely raising the issue but giving people time to
    adjust to the idea and allowing them to be involved in decisions that
    so vitally affect individuals . . . I heard of a home that had piles
    1.3 metres long that was inundated and I think condemned.

    So we come again to money - when Luxon says that his government would
    help Councils raise the money needed, the reality is that they do not
    have realisable assets to satisfy a borrower that they will be able to
    make interst and capital repayments - the loans may be nominally in
    the name of a local authority but if they are to only be charged the
    same rate as the government, there would need tobe a solid government
    guarantee - it will be easier for government to do the borrowing and
    on-lend; either way the risk will be on the Government's balance
    sheet. I wonder if Luxon has even had a talk to the new Auckland
    Mayor! One thing is for sure, if a National Government is elected,
    they would want to be heavily invovled in teh actions taken by
    Councils, and may have to accept that some Councils just do not have
    the financial resources to raise enough money to do the work required
    - and fines for that reason are just ridiculous - ownership can be a
    liability . . . .

    So Luxons proposals my well be just more smoke and mirrors, designed
    to confuse and delay - and those most upset may well be National
    supporters . . .

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Bowes@21:1/5 to All on Sat Feb 25 16:32:46 2023
    On Sunday, February 26, 2023 at 11:58:34 AM UTC+13, Rich80105 wrote:
    On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 19:18:22 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <lizan...@orcon.net.nz> wrote:

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/131328117/damien-grant-why-we-need-to-stand-up-for-the-maureen-pughs-of-the-world
    It takes a non-journalist to show how it should be done.
    <mindless political bullshit snipped>

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Crash@21:1/5 to All on Sun Feb 26 17:08:07 2023
    On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 11:57:28 +1300, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 19:18:22 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/131328117/damien-grant-why-we-need-to-stand-up-for-the-maureen-pughs-of-the-world
    It takes a non-journalist to show how it should be done.

    I agree Tony, the story has always been more about Luxon and his lack
    of real leadership. National signed us up for the international
    Climate Change agreement before Luxon was in parliament, but when he
    became leader of the National Party, all the focus for Luxon was on
    poll ratings, so he tried to agree with everyone. His line on climate
    change ws that yes there is an agreement but we do not need to do
    anything at present, or we need to move slowly - he needed to get the
    support of anyone at all - including those who he fundamentally
    disagreed with, like the less extreme Covid sceptics and anti-vaxxers,
    and farmers who wanted to keep sending nitrates downstream, etc, etc.
    Far right libertarians like Damien Grant, Jordan Williams and David
    Farrar were happy with that - they share a wish to do away with the
    top tax rate, and Luxon has been steadfast on that as well.

    So what went wrong? I suspect it was the slim possibiity of being
    elected that made Luxon listent to someone and found out how much New
    Zealand would have to pay for not meeting climate change targets. That
    alone would have made him wonder what sort of constraints there may be
    on dropping that top tax rate - he knows that there is a huge demand
    for money to bring our health sector back from the years of neglect
    under Key/English (who wanted the private sector to take over . . .).

    Then we had the floods, and National were being told by their voters
    that it was climate change. Put the two together and Luxon decided to
    change course. But he did not think to tell his team - and poor
    Maureen Pugh was left high and dry - she did not realise the spin line
    had changed - but she soon realised that the authoritarian nature of
    the Nats meant that when the leader changed his mond, you changed
    yours as well - she duly did a u-turn within hours. That is the part
    Damien Grand and David Seymour do not like, and all it would have
    taken is a bit of leadership to avoid that visible evidence of his >incompetence.

    Now we have the Luxon response to Three Waters - they want it to be
    paid for by water users through rates or levies. I can understand that
    from Luxon's perspective - he does not want it to stop getting ris of
    the top tax rate, but has he thought that through? He owns a number of
    houses - and probably knows that landlords will just have to build the
    cost of higher rates into rents, and make tenants pay for any water
    meter bills. No problem! But it isn't that simple. I quote:
    _______________
    The problem is that National, when in government, never attempted to
    enforce the rule, guidelines and legislation that already existed.
    Never dragged councils and councillors into court for dereliction of
    duty in not increasing rates to cover the required future of their
    water resources. It doesn’t sound like they have the backbone to do it
    now as well.

    Why do they see to think that scolding councillors will work over the
    next 30 years. It never did in the past.

    Never helped councils with small or poor ratepayer bases to pay for
    their upgrades. National's only contribution to councils water in the
    past has been to put limits on what they could borrow to finance these
    works. You’ll note that they haven’t mentioned anything about raising
    debt ceilings for councils thate they previously imposed?

    National just announced they aren't going to do anything significiant. >They're just going to hand the task of an under-resourced and
    toothless oversight group that has absolutely no powers to do anything
    useful – like capital financing.

    Notably there was nothing about new legislation in the area to replace
    the legislation they are want to remove – just regulation. That
    approach is the useless one that caused the current under funding and
    lack of maintenance of water infrastructure.

    Notably, they managed to not mention the biggest single issue for
    smaller councils. That they cannot afford to hire the expertise to
    actually upgrade their water infrastructure. That is one of the key >advantages

    National is what you use when you need useless and completely
    ineffectual. They certainly delivered that with this pile of waffling. >_________________________

    That is from
    https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-25-02-2023/#comment-1936716

    and before you condemn the comments because of the source, just think
    about what is being said. We have just been through severe storm
    effects that will cost a huge amount to recover from - one estimate I
    have heard is that between $120 and $185 billion dollars of investment
    in three waters (drinking water, waste water and storm water)
    infrastructure will be needed over the next 30 years to improve the
    quality of our drinking water and wastewater and stormwater
    management, across New Zealand.

    So ask yourself, has Luxon canvassed his brilliant solution with his
    wider team, the National Party members? Since he doesn't appear to
    talk to even all his MPs, this seems unlikely. Think about the farmers
    in Canterbury. National disbanded ECAN because it was going to ask too
    much from the farmers, but now there will be rules about water (which
    there already are), but with the stated intention of actually
    enforcing them! Some of those farmers are their own Water authority,
    but they will be upset about having to reduce the nitrate that they
    leach into the underground aquifers and possibly reduce the amount of
    water that they take from rivers - if some small town authorities
    cannot afford the ascientific and engineering expertise required, how
    will an individual farmer faced with having to change away from cattle >herding to reduce emissions and pollution?

    Then think about the areas that have been affected by the recent
    storms. Managed Retreat is a real possibility in some areas - the
    government is wisely raising the issue but giving people time to
    adjust to the idea and allowing them to be involved in decisions that
    so vitally affect individuals . . . I heard of a home that had piles
    1.3 metres long that was inundated and I think condemned.

    So we come again to money - when Luxon says that his government would
    help Councils raise the money needed, the reality is that they do not
    have realisable assets to satisfy a borrower that they will be able to
    make interst and capital repayments - the loans may be nominally in
    the name of a local authority but if they are to only be charged the
    same rate as the government, there would need tobe a solid government >guarantee - it will be easier for government to do the borrowing and
    on-lend; either way the risk will be on the Government's balance
    sheet. I wonder if Luxon has even had a talk to the new Auckland
    Mayor! One thing is for sure, if a National Government is elected,
    they would want to be heavily invovled in teh actions taken by
    Councils, and may have to accept that some Councils just do not have
    the financial resources to raise enough money to do the work required
    - and fines for that reason are just ridiculous - ownership can be a >liability . . . .

    So Luxons proposals my well be just more smoke and mirrors, designed
    to confuse and delay - and those most upset may well be National
    supporters . . .


    Rich yet again you have wandered way off-topic in your haste to
    denounce Luxon and National with all manner of whimsical political
    rhetoric.

    The fact is that Labour are stuck with their Water reform legislation
    that is unpopular and would have stalled if they had allowed
    consultation commensurate with the volume of submissions to proceed.
    They did not, and passing this legislation is a spectacular own-goal
    in ensuring National are elected to repeal it.

    As the article points out, the way that Pugh's comments were
    misrepresented (as climate denial when she was simply questioning
    climate change as human-caused). Luxon and National have also acted
    foolishly in their reaction, but no-where near as foolish as Labour
    with their water reforms legislation.


    --
    Crash McBash

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Willy Nilly@21:1/5 to Tony on Sun Feb 26 05:54:57 2023
    XPost: nz.politics

    On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 19:18:22), Tony <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote: >https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/131328117/damien-grant-why-we-need-to-stand-up-for-the-maureen-pughs-of-the-world
    It takes a non-journalist to show how it should be done.

    Totally right, the journalists are all-out to quash all dissent: https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/mediawatch/audio/2018879274/climate-minimisation-still-has-a-foothold-in-media

    ... in which Mediawatch, supposedly an outfit to keep media honest,
    openly advocates for suppressing one side of this debate. The article concludes: "As Maureen Pugh showed earlier this week, not believing
    the science on man-made climate change, or the need to curb greenhouse
    gas emissions, is now too extreme a position for either of our major
    political parties. For some reason, the same still can’t be said of
    all of our major media organisations."

    It's like Fahrenheit 451, in which firemen no longer fought fires, but
    instead set them. Today's journalists no longer promote debates, but
    instead quash them. Mussolini's fascism consisted of unity of the
    state, industry, and media. Benito, we're baaaaack!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to Rich80105@hotmail.com on Sun Feb 26 05:29:26 2023
    Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
    On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 19:18:22 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/131328117/damien-grant-why-we-need-to-stand-up-for-the-maureen-pughs-of-the-world
    It takes a non-journalist to show how it should be done.
    Totally off topic deliberate political rhetoric removed.
    Get on topic Rich or piss off and start your own thread.
    You are a child in a geriatric body.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to bowesjohn02@gmail.com on Sun Feb 26 20:54:59 2023
    On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 16:32:46 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
    <bowesjohn02@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Sunday, February 26, 2023 at 11:58:34?AM UTC+13, Rich80105 wrote:
    On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 19:18:22 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <lizan...@orcon.net.nz> wrote:

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/131328117/damien-grant-why-we-need-to-stand-up-for-the-maureen-pughs-of-the-world
    It takes a non-journalist to show how it should be done.
    <mindless political bullshit snipped by the mindless>

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Bowes@21:1/5 to All on Sun Feb 26 00:48:27 2023
    On Sunday, February 26, 2023 at 8:56:05 PM UTC+13, Rich80105 wrote:
    On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 16:32:46 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
    <bowes...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Sunday, February 26, 2023 at 11:58:34?AM UTC+13, Rich80105 wrote:
    On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 19:18:22 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <lizan...@orcon.net.nz> wrote:

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/131328117/damien-grant-why-we-need-to-stand-up-for-the-maureen-pughs-of-the-world
    It takes a non-journalist to show how it should be done.
    <mindless political bullshit snipped by the mindless>
    Nice to see you snipping your own crap at last Rich. save a lot of people a lot of time. Keep up the good work :)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)